User talk:7&6=thirteen/Archive 1

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Port Huron

Thank-you again, for being so helpful. I was speaking of certain Port Huron residents seeming to feel threatened. I can't find that Wiki Michigan project you mentioned, could you send me a link? Mphmi (talk) 16:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


Thank-you, Stan. I don't know if I'm posting this in the right place. This site is very confusing to me. Anyway, about my link-- I don't think Zygnoda will be happy no matter what I put for a description.

Wikipedia is clearly not against commercial content. I mean, there's a page for everything under the sun. A Myspace page, for example. Look at Frankenmuth's page -- in the External Links there, there's links for Tiffany's Food and Spirits, Bavarian Inn, -- all commercial links, but no one's complaining about them. Even so-called non-profit businesses still make money, so really, what is this about? Why do people around here seem to feel so threatened by my site? (I could give other examples.) ~Jenny —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mphmi (talkcontribs) 14:32, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Plainly, your deletion of the Arts and Crafts Movement was wrong. You also have a different perspective as to which potters are not notable. Would suggest that the individual potteries be put into a different category, thereby not 'cluttering' the internal links (See alsos), while maintaining these. You may not realize, for example, the import of Pewabic Pottery. Your deletion was at the very least parochial and ill-advised. 7&6=thirteen 18:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello 7&6=thirteen. It is ironic that you suggest I was parochial as to avoid this was a significant part of the reason for my edit. I editted what was becoming a very long list of individuals' personal favourites. Your accusation of being parochial is plainly wrong when you consider the edit left links to pottery related to Palestine, China, Japan, Native American, England, Greece, Iran and Holland. This lack of a parochial outlook is further supported as I am writing this from Colombia. I removed the Arts and Crafts Movement link as that article on has only a small inclusion on pottery, and that is limited to the USA. Also the import of Pweabic Pottery is very low. It is ony of relevance to the development of Studio Pottery in the USA, which from a global perspective is of such small importance as to be irrelevant. So rather than me being parochial it is you which show a parochial and narrow perspective.

You have been doing yeoperson work


at the Pewabic Pottery article and for that I award you the seldom coveted Thumbs Up Award. Might I suggest that you begin something to remove the red ink from Mary Chase Perry Stratton? The first decision, one that has held me in check is to decide what version of her name to use, or, put another way, whether to include the Stratton part or not. Life is good. Carptrash 19:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC) PS if you write something/anything on your user page then you will no longer appear in red either, and this is, I feel, a good thing.

Thank you for the recognition.

I have been doing this as a mitzvah, and expected none.

I would suggest that we start an entirely new article concerning Mary Chase Perry Stratton. There is lots of information on her and her glazes, just in the materials that are linked to this article. FWIW, I think that her marriage to the architect (Stratton) who designed the Pewabic building would deserve mention. Her partner in craft should also be mentioned in the Pewabic article, as well as in hers. She was really an important figure, and it would be a good complement to the article on Pewabic Pottery, which I believe still needs lots of work. Feel free to help out. 7&6=thirteen 19:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC) Stan

Guardian Building

Stan, FYI, here is a link to the Detroit News article [1] on the history of the Guardian Building. It does detail the ownership of the building during that time. Michigan Consolidated was the largest tenant and then became the owner in 1975.Thomas Paine1776 00:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


My style at wikipedia is pretty much to back off problems and allow the other to have his/her way. In the article on Architectural sculpture, for example I said, fine, have it your way even though I do this [2]. However I will send a note to this other person and see where it gets us. I am a fairly long term wikipedian (I even got a bit of press here [3] ) and this sort of nah nah nahing is why I've cut way back. I just sort of got engaged with you because I liked what you were doing and wanted to be a part of it. So, we'll see. Anyway, thanks for asking and I will see what I can do. Probably not much before Sunday because tomorrow is our burning permit day. Which means not much to you but a lot to me. Carptrash (talk) 05:22, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Good a.m. - I did leave a note with the tea pot fellow and am curious to see what happens next. However I should mention early in the process that my moves are not always linear - in chess I might be a knight - so we'll see. You are perhaps more direct, a castle perhaps? Oh yes, don't forget to sign your messages. A major wikipedia dictum. Carptrash (talk) 15:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the follow-up with Teapot George.

I think that the link I put the latest link (Brunk article from the Marshall Fredericks museum) I put in the Stratton and Pewabic article might be a good basis for us to put together a somwhat longer rendition on Statton's article, and could be used as the basis for a Caulkins piece. Good stuff. Thanks.

I'll remember to sign.

7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:19, 17 November 2007 (UTC) Stan

And one more sort of Amy Vanderbilt Etiquette thing, mostly folks post on each others discussion page and not the user page. It's sort of like . . . ........... parking on the driveway as opposed to on the lawn. It's not important to me, but others might freak out and in any case, knowledge in power and you should be at least aware of these things so that you're making informer decisions. And I really am not (or at least think I'm not) quite the fussy curmudgeon that this makes me sound like. Life is good. Carptrash (talk) 15:37, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


Carptrash guiding Lucky 13 .jpg

The picture is from a 1900 publication explaining the Boer War to Americans. these are Boers, looking for a hapless Englishman to shoot (from Carps History of All Things) Carptrash (talk) 23:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

PS not sure what Belle Isle phot you are referring to? more Carptrash (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:05, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the movie tip, so here is a wikitip in return. When you mention something such as Breaker Morant try putting brackets around it and see what pops up. My wife is a major Bryan Brown fan, so, yes, I've seen it. Oh yes, what are the two better trial movies? Carptrash (talk) 03:55, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps more than you wanted to know, but . . ....

My wife will not watch (with only a few exceptions, one being true stories) movies in which there is a lot of tension or in which people are mean to each other. This cuts out a lot of viewing possibilities for together watching, but I recently scored a stack of library throwaways and have been watching them late at night. One, A Murder of Crows was two nights ago and you came right to mind. Last night it was Amistad, which is more trial though less "former trial lawyer". Anyway, we'd like to add My Cousin Vinny as another good trial flic - of a very different mode than the ones previously mentioned.

I did some time in the Labor trenches, so it's interesting to learn the direction that you are in. If you go to IWW you'll find my (former) Red Card there, and following that decade I was an unemployment advocate in Michigan for a bit. Not exactly The Law, but closeish. And so it goes. Now I have a septic tank to dig out, which, if not more fun that wikkiiing, more compelling in other ways. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 16:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

the meaning of existence

Well certainly (yet another word for "my opinion") the heyday of the IWW was a century ago (carp-time), but they are still chugging along. The place I worked, The Peoples Wherehouse in Ann Arbor, Michigan wanted, or at least the workers wanted, a union that allowed them a carte blanche in contracts, negotiations etc, so as a result we became the largest active IWW shop at that time. No longer in existence, I do believe, though arguing about the meaning of existence is another direction that we could take. Now back to digging the septic tank. (talk) 18:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Whoooops. Turned out that I was not logged on. No surprise, I'm sure (yet another term for "My opinion"), but this is Carptrash (talk) 18:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

My mama taught me how to share

especially other folks stuff, but I am not sure what two year old bourbon barrel conditioned barley wine is exactly, or how i'd share it from New Mexico. Dixon is a wine growing (well grape growing, wine producing) area, so I am used to home grown, as it were. This stuff of yours sounds different. You mention "expensive", I drink Brandon's wine because it's free. He and I share air time on KLDK and well as being in the Pathetics together (see picture in KLDK article). Meanwhile it's off to Santa Fe for a day at Cool Shades. I am currently employed at a kiosk in a Mall there and the Big Season is almost upon us. Carptrash (talk) 13:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I spent 30 odd years (some of them very odd indeed) in Ypsilanti and Ann Arbor much of it learning about the architecture of the area. I acquired a fair bit of knowledge about the buildings and the folks who created them. I know, for example, more about the life and work of Corrado Parducci than anyone else that I have ever met, or even learned about for that matter. And other stuff too. Getting a ticket to Metro is a great idea but I need to tell you that the only way that I do that these days is when someone else buys the ticket. Lydia, for example, got me one from Cleveland to Albuquerque recently when I drove her car for her from Santa Fe to Cleveland, but that's a story better told over the wine or beer or even Brandon's home grown red. Meanwhile I passed through a Sobriety Check Point in the Gorge tonight that made we feel good that I'd not tippled a few earlier. Life is good. Einar the eeeeeeeek Carptrash (talk) 04:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)



Hello, 7&6=thirteen, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} before the question on your talk page. Again, welcome! bd2412 T 01:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Now you have me doing it.

I'm whacking away at that list too. it is interesting (to me) to note how many of the movies on the first list were made between 1957 and 1967. Why do you suppose that was? Why was Hollywood focusing it's best anf brightest (some of it quite dark) on the Judicial system then. It brings to mind the Johnny Nash song, There are more questions than answers - at least to me. eeeeek aka Carptrash (talk) 17:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC) PS thanks for Vinnie, even if he is in red. Which is odd because I think that there was an Oscar involved.

PS Don't forget to sign your comments on the Discussion pageof AoaM with 4 of these ~ guys(or gals if you prefer). Carptrash (talk) 17:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I see that there is a category Courtroom dramas whch might need/want to be looked at and perhaps expanded. Too bad it excludes Vinny. Carptrash (talk) 17:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC) Just like work, huh?

I noticed, or think I noticed

that here[4] you signed something "Stan" instead of Lucky 13. I read The Bounty Trilogy as a youth and remember that the courtroom scenes were particularly tense because I'd developed definate ideas about who should be hanged and who set free and that my opinions did not always match those of the Royal Navy. In fact, rarely do. My older brother, Ragnar ([5]) attended the Royal Naval School (see Autobiography of a Carp, Chapter 3) and was pulled out when my mother discovered that they featured public cannings of miscreants - not a bad description of Ragnar in his younger years. I sort of took over the role in Chapter 6 or so. Carptrash (talk) 19:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is one thing that you are risking

at Trial movies. Much of the article is your opinion. It is possible that we can slide under the wikipolice radar for a bit, but at some point some 12/22 year old with the rule book committed to memory will show up and proceed to slash and burn. it is what got me to stop contributing very much. But now you have weaseled me with the carrot to get back to it. However the stick is lurking out there. So think about the English (language) issue and M (film) and I'll chip away at what I know to be red flag words —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carptrash (talkcontribs) 16:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

There also needs to be a better introduction to the article before leaping into the 10 Best List. Check this out for some ideas. Western (genre). Carptrash (talk) 16:25, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

"and talk about the merits of individual movies"

That just becomes more opinion. We need to find sources and allow them to do the talking. Meanwhile a list of Ttrial movies with links to other articles is a good next step. Articles are judged (and executed sometimes) by the number of links to other articles. Let's do it. Carptrash (talk) 18:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC) PS I'm winterinzing the homestead today - so will be on and off.

Re Anatomy of a Murder, and other things

Greetings Stan and thanks for getting in touch with me. I read many of the messages left for you here and I'm sure in agreement with Carptrash with some of the things he mentions.

Personally, I think you are a super writer and are doing good work. I think the learning curve on Wikepedia is a long one, especially if one does not read many of the guidelines before mushing on. I've been slapped around many a times, and have learned the hard way. Generally, I delete NPOV and info that clearly do not belong in an article.

I leave original work alone, or look for references someone neglected to include. Carptrash is correct: someone will come along and place a nasty tag on an article with original work and no reference.

Now for Anatomy of a Murder: The critical reception first para I guess is fine. Mostly, I've seen over and over, and now do it as well, critical reception written like the article I edited yesterday. See: One of the Hollywood Ten. Yes, way too simplistic, but it works.

The plot section: I'm going to move a few paras because the plot should be a general blow by blow account of what happens in the film. I'll label the new sections: Legal aspects & Comparisons to book. The plot section proper probably needs some work.

Well, that's it. Cheers, Luigibob (talk) 22:00, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

American cinema barnstar

Working Man's Barnstar.png American Cinema Barnstar
I Luigibob present you with this American Cinema Barnstar for all of the hard work you've done on the Anatomy of a Murder article--your contribution to film articles is much appreciated! Luigibob
Hey Stan: How are ya doing'. Super job on adding references to the "Legal aspects" section of the article. I was worried some tag happy Wikepidian would place a tag on the section. Now I think we're cool. I think the section is the best part of the article. It provides something to think about when watching the film. It seems you have a legal background. In college I took six units of US constitutional law. I consider both courses my favs while in college, and the prof, now a good friend of mine, is a "fire and brimstone" kind of fellow. Warm regards Stan, Luigibob 16:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)Talk to Luigibob!

think that a caption

is a good idea. I figured that you might want to add something, but I was not sure what. I'll set it up for you to just go to the edit mode and remove Caption and add what you will. It's sort of funny, but I have two images that I've been planning to add to that article - which is why I had it bookmarked and saw you show up. We must be in parallel dimentions or something. Carptrash (talk) 21:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Checked the vandalism on Pottery

Thanks for the tip - I reverted back to the last pre-vandalized version of Pottery, and added a warning to Kownudl's talk page. If you're interested, you can check out the article on handling vandalism and this article on how to revert several versions at once. I found them very helpful. Jackollie (talk) 01:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

There are two kinds of people in the world.

Those that divide everything into two groups and those who do not. There are two kinds of wikipedians - Inclusionists and deletionists. I am an inclusionist. If I like something and figure that we'd have a better article by adding it, then I do so. And, as you've discovered, some deletionist will come along and . . . . . . . . . . . ....... So my thought is Go For It. Carptrash (talk) 18:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I have articles about a variety of obscure sculptors that folks pretty much leave alone because it's not worth the time and/or effort to locate them, much less deal with them. But someday someone will discover the number of unpublished manuscripts by one Einar Einarsson Kvaran that are part of the sources that anything could happen. Caspar Buberl is one of my favorites and you'll not find (opinion) a better anything about him anywhere. Carptrash (talk) 20:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

When you get back

to your curator at the MFSM would you ask if he/she/they still have a record of the fact that I loaned them a book of Fredericks sculpture at the U of M Administration building? It was a scrap book, presented by the architects to the U of M pressident and I'd had autographed by Fredericks. Might give you a bit more clout. Carptrash (talk) 21:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

A couple of notes

from the Carptrash's Big Book of Etiquette, if you'd like me to visit a page, such as Irving Jacob Reuter, then make it a link Irving Jacob Reuter so that I can do it in the easiest way. The page look good, I am surprised that the house did not get a mention in Eckert's The Buildings of Michigan. The second note is that thoughts such as your's are typically presented on another wikipedians discussion page rather than on his/her User Page. Not a big thing with me, but some others get weird and territorial about it. Also, if somethng is posted on my user page I don't get that You've got Messages note in orange (or whatever) that I so love. Carptrash 16:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the review link. Do you have pictures of those tiles? Sound as if they'd make a nice addition it several articles. Sendin me links is fine I actually DO care. What I'm not thrilled about getting is messages from the Other Side telling us that if we all get up at 3 am and beat a drum for an hour or two that World Peace will result. What you sent is interesting in my world. Carptrash 20:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to say

without seeing a picture of the building, but I think i get the idea. Okay, what we have here (opinion) is more British hi-jacking of the American - I mean United Statesian perspective. (Another whole can of worms for another day) Tudorbethan architecture is not a term used in America. Here is is called Tudor Revival or sometimes Jacobian Something. However someone has taken that link and redirected it to Tudorbethan architecture. I'll poke around and see what can be done. In the meanwhile I'll suggest that you call your place Tudor Revival for now and let's se what can be done. Carptrash 17:53, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Well it might be too late to 'let them argue it out." I've contacted an administrator and requested that We (Americans) get the Tudor Revival page if the limey's don't want it. Your building is definately what I'd call Tudor Revival, so it might be an early link. Meanwhile I need to knock together a creditable stub so that if I get the page cleared to use, that there will be something to put up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carptrash (talkcontribs) 18:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, so after we get this thing dealt with we can go back to the Pottery issue if you like. I suspect that you have enough wikiexperiance to pick-and-choose your fights and your path through the wikimine fields. Meanwhile, would you glance at Paul Williams (architect), go to the Work section and see if you think that the work vernacular is the right one. Also the article sugests that Williams did modern versions of Tudor Revival, when in fact (opinion) he was just doing Tudor Revival - which is a modern version of . ...... real Tudor. Make sense? Carptrash 19:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I've done a fair amount

of Matilda Dodge research and know, which many don't, that she was the first woman Lt. Gov. of Michigan. Also was never accepted intp Grosse Pt. society because she started out as Dodge's secratary. Corrado Parducci did a lot of work for her, at Meadow Brook Hall, the Wilson Theatre (Music Hall) and on her mausoleum in Woodlawn Cemetery (Detroit, Michigan) In fact she is listed in red at that entry, just waiting for you to do an article on her.. I did a Parducci slide show at Meadow Brook years ago and unfortunately, gave them some of my best pictures. Oh well. Carptrash (talk) 21:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC) Meanwhile my real focus today is on my septic tank which . . ...... you probably don't want to know, and if you do then your are sicker than I'd imagined.

Harrisville, Michigan

Article should reference both D&M and LSR, as you suggest. Take a look at the current language. Bigturtle (talk) 16:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about the link not working

You just put one instead of two sets of [ ] around it. As for the logo, just because a company folds it does not mean that someone else does not own the copyright to it. However I'll try and get it into the article and we'll go from there. I just got rid of a bunch of Michigan Train books that had belonged to my late father-in-law and that I donated to the Embudo valley Library book sale. Our library here is not a public one in that it gets no tax support, so all funds come from donations and grants and what not. Anyway, they are probably gone now, though if they did not sell will be in the storage are that as a Library BoD member I have access to. hmmmmmmmm Carptrash (talk) 17:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Sturgeon Point Light Station references need work

Hi, I don't see anything obviously wrong with the references in the article. It is more densely footnoted than I would like, but some editors interpret verifiability guidelines on wikipedia to mean that every sentence or even every clause of every sentence needs to be footnoted. Is there perhaps a more specific question about the references I might be able to help with? olderwiser 14:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That is just a way to re-use the same source without repeating the entire entry each time. Each letter links to a different point in the article where the source is referenced. It works OK for single pages on web sites or short print articles. For multiple references to separate pages within a book, I prefer to place the author's name and the page number in a note, and place the bibliographic details for the book in a separate section. However, several styles for citing sources are acceptable for use in Wikipedia articles. Which style is most appropriate may vary according to the subject and the available source material. olderwiser 16:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I understand. There are many styles that are acceptable that I don't particularly like, but I've learned it is usually not worth making too much of a fuss over. olderwiser 17:03, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Notability of author and ISBN numbers

I had no idea you had added the author and the book with ISBN number, so there is no reason to take offense, because my edit was made in good faith. It's extremely common on the English Wikipedia for people to promote themselves, their books, their organizations, their political views, and so on, by inserting them into articles. If the author is notable, then the book and the book's ISBN number can be listed in the author's Wikipedia article (like the Judith Guest example). I think Harmony Weekend is notable, because it's an annual event that involves the entire city. I'd be happy to provide references. Why not simply provide an appropriate reference for this author and leave out the ISBN number, which really doesn't belong in an article about Harrisville? Best, MoodyGroove (talk) 01:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

Placing the ISBN number in the footnote would be better (I try to include them if the reference is a book, for example) but don't be surprised if another editor comes along at some point in the future and questions the author's notability again. This is especially common when a stubby article like Harrisville gets developed and moves toward B status. No one likes to see their content get deleted or challenged, but the process is healthy for the project, and the end result is usually a higher quality article. What we are experiencing here is nowhere near an edit war, but rather, exactly the kind of communication expected between editors who share a common goal of writing a good article that is good for the project. The best thing to do if you care about this content is to substantiate it with a verifiable source. I'll even help you find one, if you would like. Best, MoodyGroove (talk) 14:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove
You can always click on my user page and then click "E-mail this user" in the toolbox to the left. Is it a URL to the article that you intended on emailing? Please feel free and I will format the reference. Best, MoodyGroove (talk) 18:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

Long Lake (Alpena, Michigan)

No problem. Most of my editing is polishing/tidying articles where I can. Ravenna1961 (talk) 04:18, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Grayling, Michigan

No problem. I think I fixed the image link, and two text page links. I also learned I have been mistaken for over 30 years about the name of central in Dallas, TX, I75 versus US75. Amazing what you learn on wikipedia :) JackSchmidt (talk) 22:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Otsego County, Michigan

I didn't find a good link for all the business loops grouped together, and the business loops are given very little attention on Interstate 75 in Michigan (but enough I could use as a model). There is a longer list article List of Business Routes of the Interstate Highway System#Interstate 75 that was also useful. I ended up just linking the image and the local article, Interstate 75 Business (Gaylord, Michigan). Feel free to change the link labels, or add back in an I-75 link. JackSchmidt (talk) 19:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Pewabic Pottery

Tagging this as dubious is legitimate as ot os a very big claim that is only supported by a single reference from someone who is clearly biased as he is the Curator on Pewabic Pottery history. It either needs valid references or it should be removed. Please try to improve the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully this part is addressed now. I tried not to change any content or tone of the article other than the one "finest" phrase. I moved most of the opening into the main article, which should hopefully make it easier to add more material. The article sounds very interesting, and it can definitely be expanded (perhaps onto the biography pages as well). Let me know if you want any explanation of what I did, or help continuing with it. JackSchmidt (talk) 01:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Northern Michigan

I made two edits so you could see which you prefer. The first one only works in FireFox (and lots of other less common browsers, but not IE7). It is very easy to tweak, though. You just add <div style="-moz-column-count:4; column-count:4;"> to the top and </div> to the bottom, where you can replace "4" (both times) with how many columns you want. 4 happened to be even, but 3 might be a better choice.

The other way, the way that works in IE7 and FireFox (and lots but not all less common browsers) is the {{multicol}} template. The only problem with it is you have to explicitly say where the columns break, so adding new items to the list is a pain in the butt. I suspect you rarely have to add cities, so I hope it was the right choice. It was the one I left on the article. Adjusting column lengths and widths just means moving, adding, or deleting those {{multicol-break}} tags.

Help:List has some information on doing this stuff, but leaves out the first solution both solutions. Math tends to use the first solution with the <div>, but probably because there are some commonly used math websites that worked better on FireFox for many years, and so everyone has FireFox.

At any rate the first one makes life easier for editors, but the second one makes life better for viewers. I went with the second, since I hope the list of cities will not change much. JackSchmidt (talk) 17:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I just noticed that Help:List is not very helpful. Template:multicol documents the second solution, and the first solution is just folklore in the math section of wikipedia. You can see it in action in Template:Reflist but this is hard to read. JackSchmidt (talk) 17:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Happy holidays Stan, the man

Hey, I trust you've been well. I'm sorry for not getting back to you sooner since you last left a message. As they say, "my bad." To respond: I'll try to work on the "trial movies" article in my SANDBOX and see what you think. Also, my local library has a copy of the film. I think I'll watch ANATOMY once more this week. As for the CATEGORY:color films, I don't think one exists. I'll let you know when I edit trial movies for your looksee. The article really is needed (so glad you started it) and without TAGS. Best to you Stan-- ♦ Luigibob ♦ "Talk to Luigi!" 21:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


No worries on the spelling. I'm using a live spellcheck program to catch recent typos, so don't think I'm specifically following YOU around ;-) Tanthalas39 (talk) 03:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


To indent you type a colon (:) or a series of colons (:::) at the beginning of your comments. Look at the code for this reply and you'll see how it's done.

First reply
Second reply
Second reply, second graph
Third reply

Usual practice on the talk pages is to indent one more level (one more colon) for each reply, until about four or five levels, then go back to the left side of the page. But by all means, don't let it stop you from commenting on the talk page. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 13:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome. I hope you understand that I'm not looking for a fight or trying to make an enemy of you. I can see that you're doing good work here and hope you'll continue. I just had doubts about that link. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 14:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I understand. I'm not particularly sensitive about editing. Especially when it turns out the editor got it right, and I got it wrong.
In my work I am like the supreme court. As Justice Henry Jackson once said: "We are not final because we are infallible; we are infallible because we are final."
Of course, in Wiki one is never final. And I was mistaken, as BKConrad graciously pointed out. So keep up the good work, as this was not taken as a personal attack. BTW, apparently you've been working hard on the Toledo War. You (and whomever) have done a very nice job!
Happy new year to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)Stan

For no particular reason

Smiley.png Hope you have a good day! Nengscoz416 (talk) 02:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Limitation on use of signs

It may have, but then the article would easily have been prone to signitis, where signs are everywhere there's a mention of a route name. And there are many in both articles.

About a year and a half ago we just decided to limit it to exit lists and infoboxes (those things on the right.)

Thanks! —Rob (talk) 17:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, there's a link to current standards. WP:USRD/MOS. They change a lot, but not enough to merit too much concern. —Rob (talk) 21:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Interstate article intros

I've noticed that you've been editing some articles lately, and you might wonder why I've reverted some of those edits. It's already sufficient to start an article with '''Interstate 496''', abbreviated as '''I-496''' to get Interstate 496, abbreviated as I-496. Changing the intro so that it's a link to the same page being viewed, a) takes more characters, b) only bolds it anyway and c) removes the full name (which is needed) showing only an abbreviation. Also, interstates are never normally called US I-96 as US 96 and I-96 are two different highways, in two different states! (US 96 is in Texas, I-96 is in Michigan). If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me anytime. I'm glad to be of help! Imzadi1979 (talk) 22:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

from eeeek

It's nice to hear from you, particularly in these . . ...... troubled times. Here is the deal. This admin. is telling me that every piece of sculpture has to be written up as Fair Use and/or I'm not sure what and I am not up to it. I have hundreds of images on wikipedia and am not about to find them all and write 'em up one by one. About a week ago a friend of mine died, perhaps by his own doing upon getting a bad medical diagnosis. That's sort of how I'm feeling now. I'd rather do it myself. feel free to check out the copyright links that are in the postings above where you mailed me. I did and there is stuff about copyright expiring when the artist dies - pretty much all mine are dead, but . . ... I don't know. I am trying to get my book Shadowing Parducci ready to self publish by the end of January and have more hundreds of pictures to scan and photoshop and all and am not up for this at all. But it is good to hear from you and feel free to contact the fellow who is getting ready to delete my pictures and offer him a second opinion. Life is supposed to be interesting. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 02:15, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

hmmmmmmm. Well there is no one harassing me, this fellow is trying his best, we just have different opinions as to what that means. If you go to my talk pages and go up a posting or two (from the bottom) you'll find a series of links to various copyright information. I suggest that you look over it before launching anything. It's interesting stuff - legal writing, and it's hard for me to get to the bottom of it. There seem to be a lot of "what ifs" involved and this editor has decided that all sculpture is copyrighted and thus can not be used. It might cause aminor riot in the wiki sculpture world, but, if he is correct then, so be it. But I do not think that he is right. Carptrash (talk) 02:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

So here is the US copyright law.

Seems as if Sec. 106 is a place to begin.

There is more on Sec. 113

Sec. 107 is the Fair Use section and probably covers what i do, but that means writing out 500 or more separate explanations, and that I am not going to do.

The fact that all my sculptors are dead might come to bear (bare?) but do their heirs automatically get rights to the work?

What else can I do? What would a intellectual rights attorney want/need to know for an 8 minute diagnosis?

Architectural stuff before 1990 seems to be okay, so I might have pulled Lee Lawrie out a bit prematurely. Oh well.

In any case, thanks a lot for your interest and concern. Einar Carptrash (talk) 03:04, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Michigan's Thumb

I have never heard of the Sarnia to Alpena boat race, but then again I don't live in Sarnia or Alpena. Thanks for working on the thumb, it looks so much better than it did before. I have just started to work on a festival page for the thumb. I'm sorry I can't help you about that boat race, but do you know where M-25 starts in Port Huron? Check out the thumb talk page for my latest discussion.Cgord (talk) 17:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again for working on the thumb and helping me put this region back on the map. I have just started working on the Southeast Michigan page, but I don't think it will ever be as good as Northern Michigan & the Thumb. With the new changes, the thumb wiki page is the first to come up on google when searching the thumb of Michigan. Thanks so much for all the work you ave done, keep up the good work.Cgord (talk) 01:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I've visited the Clark Library website, and they've got something on everyting. Thanks for telling me.Cgord (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, do you know of any list of Michigan universities to help me on the thumb? Also, thanks for the link to Info Michigan, it is very usefull for history of cities and towns. Lets keep working on Flint/Tri Cities, Its getting a lot better.Cgord (talk) 23:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you know how to make tables smaller, like the thumb large population table? Something the size of the population tables on the U.P. article would be great.Cgord (talk) 23:31, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
If you haven't noticed, I've been busy and havent had much time to work on wikipedia. Thanks for your message, I will check out the Michigan Lighthouses, you did a great job on Port Sanilac Light. I keep going to the Northern Michigan artical, but its so good, I can't seem to add anything to it. I've got to go, the Red Wings are playing! Cgord (talk) 00:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Edit Summaries

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Hi there. When editing an article on Wikipedia there is a small field labeled "Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this:
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The text written here will appear on the Recent changes page, in the page revision history, on the diff page, and in the watchlists of users who are watching that article. See m:Help:Edit summary for full information on this feature.

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Pere Marquette

How do you figure the Pere Marquette Railway being a current common carrier? My understanding is that it stopped existing when it passed to the C&O in 1947. Best, Mackensen (talk) 14:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


Quick note here. I'm adding all the defunct railway companies I can find in Meints' book to List of Michigan railroads and I've added a separate section for interurbans to try and manage things. Mackensen (talk) 17:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Muskegon and Ludington

How's that look? Unfortunately, there isn't a special graphic for business loops (except the special green Interstate shields), but I have a trick to make one up. Just use [[Image:Business plate.svg|##px]]<br>[[Image:US ##.svg|##px]] as needed. Remember that 3-digit US highway shields are supposed to be displayed at 25px instead of 20px, so the business plate would also need to be wider to look right. Any more questions, just ask. I'm always happy to help. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Muskegon and Ludington

How's that look? Unfortunately, there isn't a special graphic for business loops (except the special green Interstate shields), but I have a trick to make one up. Just use [[Image:Business plate.svg|##px]]<br>[[Image:US ##.svg|##px]] as needed. Remember that 3-digit US highway shields are supposed to be displayed at 25px instead of 20px, so the business plate would also need to be wider to look right. Any more questions, just ask. I'm always happy to help. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and for the County-Designated Highways, the A-## highways, the graphic used is [[[[Image:Michigan A-## county County.svg|20px]]. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
You are a veritable fount of information on this roads and signs and anything else on this topic.
Ordinarily, all I do is edit/copy from another page, which has the virtue that I won't be making new mistakes (and the vice that I will be reproducing old errors, if somebody else did them). Essentially I am doing this in a brainless/mechanical way, without understanding what I am doing.
Your new images looked great, by the way. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)Stan
You're quite welcome. Imzadi1979 (talk) 22:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

List of museums

I share your concern about the museum lists. Michigan is not the only place with a problem. Please stop in at Talk:List of museums in the United States and add your two-cents-worth (or more). --Orlady (talk) 03:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Yankee Air Museum

I'm new at this, so I'll ask forgiveness in advance for my errors.

I believe that The Yankee Air Museum in Belleville is the National Headquarters and the Wurstsmith and Saginaw are separate divisions (and separate museums). I would think they would each deserve their own separate mentions, and cross link to each other? I guess what led to my initial confusion was the Michigan Museums page listed Yankee Air Museum as Oscoda, but the click through clearly showed the Willow run entity. If the "see also" had been Yankee Air Force Wurtsmith Division, rather than Oscoda, I might not have so quickly assumed it was a cut and paste editing typo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Annebethmi (talkcontribs) 17:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Henry Stephens (lumberman)

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A tag has been placed on Henry Stephens (lumberman) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the article's talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. ScarianCall me Pat 19:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

It is nice to hear from you.

Actually, I do not consider either the Buhl or the Wrigley to be art deco. Deco (opinion) is not about structure - both are constructed like many other deco buildings, but about surface ornamentation, and neither uses that. I see that the smash-and-grab folks are at your Stevens article. it is so intersted, to me, that any bit of current pop culture fluff can rate an article but when you start going back in time all of a sudden the nay-sayers start popping up. When I first got on the www in the 1990s in noticed that it was great for current things, and moved forward nicely, but when you tried going back it became less friendly. That seems to have not changed. Yes, I pulled out my Fredericks pictures, and probably more. The copyright issue is complicated, I got Parducci's son to give me carte blanche on his work, mostly because I'm writing a book about his work, but in contacting the State of Tennessee about the copyrights to the Alvin York statue they own (picture now gone) all I got was "We're not saying we do own it and we're not saying we don't." Life can get tangeled, but only when I hang on to the strings. Let go of them and they do not seem to be such a problem. I looked for a place to vote on the Steven's article, but could not find one. Usually the DELETE NOW stamps have aplace to go. Did I miss it? Life is good. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 16:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Upper Peninsula

I looked at the link before I reverted the deletion of Suicide Hill and couldn't understand why it was removed. That's why I referred to it as vandalism. It's obviously noteworthy. I'm sure you could make it into a stand alone article. Take a look at this link....

I'll look at Tawas Point Light next chance I get.Asher196 (talk) 04:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course

i had to add something about the Murphy statue, so I did. This is a great article and I can't add more than i did. I am not a fan of footnoting outside links because they frequently disappear in a month or two and that's really annoying. ah well. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 05:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is a slight insight into me. I am not a finisher and polisher. And if Frank M needed anything it was that and my eye is not attuned to that sort of detail. I'm a broad strokes kind of a guy. But one of my claims is that I can tie a statue into anything and with Murph it was easy, since it was already there. I question the bit about Marshall Fredericks "helping" set the statue on the pedistal. Fredericks was one of those folks, who, when they see a spot light, even on someone else, can not help but step into the center of focus. like the Rev. Al Sharpton, but different. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 21:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
"albeit on a 24 foot high penis" Now that pulls a chain. I wrote a section in the phallus article about phallic architecture and buildings that look like penises and it was removed as being original research. As if 98% of all humanity could not tell what, say the Nebraska Capitol building looks like. I am also frequently chastised for calling articles "mine," so i completely understand the feeling. Carptrash (talk) 22:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

So my Phallic Architecture still exists? Cool, but then that will get us arguing about the meaning of exiatance, and what chance would I have? Don't worry about your opinion too much. if you have a reference somewhere near that's probably good enough. Meanwhile I just volunteered to take a friend to CA of knee surgery, his wife just came down with theflu, so again I get someone else to pay for my travelling. It does not get much better. Leave tomorrow at sunrise. Einar akaCarptrash (talk) 02:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I've been informed that part of my duties involve wplking Howard 10 minutes every hour. The EVERY HOUR was stressed. I;ll know soon if that means 24 or not. i want to do some arch sculpt stuff in Sacramento, but we'll see. Thanks for the thoughts. Einar akaCarptrash (talk) 03:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Leland, Michigan

I added the settlement infobox and some basic information. Feel free to add as much information to the box as you want. It's rather time consuming to start from scratch, but I'll add more info when I get a chance.Asher196 (talk) 17:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

South Manitou Island Light

I just created this article. If you get a chance, take a look and work your magic on it. Thanks!----Asher196 (talk) 14:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

From me Luigi

I just awantd to say hi! I hope you are enjoying being a Wikipedian. I am. As for me, I got to my library, and OMG, they have many Argentinian films. See: User:Luigibob/ForeignFilms. So I was able to add info to the articles. My best -- ♦ Luigibob ♦ "Talk to Luigi!" 14:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your comments. I've seen what you have added to many articles. Good job. You are helping so much. As for me, I just stick to films. Oh well, I guess that is my expertise. I should add to political science articles since that is my background. You take care sir. Luigibob (talk) 16:12, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Did you see the squabble in the article (Anatomy of a Murder). Amazing...over such a trivial matter. That's why I never want to get involved bringing an article that I've been involved in to any status over B. And if it happens, I will not be involved. See my talk page for the full discussion and end. By the way, I suggest you change "inter alia" to "among other things." Food for thought. Best- your wiki-friend Luigibob (talk) 04:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I'll do the change. Trust me. Some Wikipedian will freak soon. I know what it means since I took two con laws classes, as I mentioned, but the layman reading an encyclopedia will not. Luigibob (talk) 04:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Funny how people are telling me, I guess, and you indirectly, the diffs between footnotes, refs, and a bibliography. I have 200 units in higher ed college creds, you probably have 450. These egos...whatever...I reached out to a few Wikipedians, however. On another matter, I met someone who is so cool. He sent me a DVD of a film I remember so well, but is no longer available. The FILM: The Brotherhood of the Bell. My best -- Luigibob (talk) 06:46, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Catholic Diocese of Gaylord

You said: I notice that you have removed the statement and reference that Charlevoix, Michigan (and 30 other locales) is part of the Gaylord diocese of the Catholic Church. Your systematic removal of the accurate relationship of the geographic organization of the Catholic church in Michigan form a bunch of websites under the theory that "it has nothing to do with geography" is wrong-headed. If you narrowly construe the word "geography", you were still removing a pertinent, true and useful fact. It would have been far better (IMHO), if you had expended all this destructive energy in a constructive manner, i.e., moving the thought or reforming it into a message that would be of use to the readers while leaving the information there in one form or another. Of course, maybe it is that you have a different agenda.

My reply: I'd be curious to know what _your_ agenda is. You can't possibly tell me that every town and county in Wikipedia, even articles that are 3 paragraphs long, should have a reference to what Catholic Diocese it is a part of. It was not "destructive energy" at all - it was an attempt to keep the articles to an even and relevant level of detail. I'm a member of the Sierra Club. Does that mean that I should edit the articles for every town and county in Northern Michigan to say "Traverse City is considered to be part of the Traverse Group chapter of the Sierra Club."? No, of course not. If you want to add a section to these towns and counties that discusses their religious affiliations, I would have no problem with that. However, if you do that, you might want to consider including other religions as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey my friend and trail films, hey why not

My friend, let me work with you on some films you mentiponed before, and a sectionen

Happy First Day of Spring!

I suggest

that you email Thom Brunk, tell him we are working on the changes and ask him how his book on th Masonic Temple is going. 03:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

CMU library external link

Hey there. I couldn't help but notice you added an external link about the chronology of Michigan lighthouses to a large number of seemingly relevant pages. You may want to familiarize yourself with WP:EL, specifically point #1 at WP:ELNO. All of the relevant information from your page could be incorporated into the articles, so the external link isn't warranted. If you have the time, you should make those additions. —Zeagler (talk) 15:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Information.svg Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, one or more of the external links you added to the page Marquette, Michigan‎ do not comply with our guidelines for external links and have been removed. Wikipedia is not a collection of links; nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Since Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, external links do not alter search engine rankings. If you feel the link should be added to the article, please discuss it on the article's talk page before reinserting it. Please take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 16:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[6] Stop hand nuvola.svg This is your only warning.
The next time you make a personal attack, you will be blocked for disruption. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. --Hu12 (talk) 23:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Stop x nuvola with clock.svg

You have been Blocked for personal attacks and harassment. If you wish to make useful contributions, you are welcome to come back after the block expires.--Hu12 (talk) 23:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I have been wrongfully blocked from editing

Hu12‎ and Barek engaged in a deliberate and willful concerted and personal attack on me. They engaged in wikistalking and sock puppetry. When I protested their actions, they deleted my complaints from their talk pages. They deleted (without cause) a whole lot of work I had put into articles. This block is now in retaliation for my complaints. This is an abuse of editorial responsibility, and is part of a larger problem with Hu12, who apparently has issues and abuses his power on a regular basis. You need to put a stop on this abuse of power, position and irresponsibility. I accuse. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)Stan

I have unblocked you. While I think Hu12 was a little hasty in blocking you, you also jumped to conclusions regarding his actions. I know it can be difficult when editors go and systematically undo your edits, but it is best to begin by assuming good faith and simply asking for a better explanation before making accusations. olderwiser 01:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Harbor Beach

Thanks for the compliment. I'm sure some people won't like the format, but... --HB Edit (talk) 20:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Your message on my page

Let me get this out in the open first: I support your editing and think that the response to your edits was overblown and out of proportion to what was needed. You have done a lot of wonderful work in the areas relating to Michigan. With that said, you were not helping your case by alluding to Naziesque behavior and calling people "goons". That doesn't go over well on the WP:ANI pages. I really was trying to help you by pointing out what Hu12 did was wrong and such but the extreme language you used on the board turned a lot of people off to your cause. If you succinctly pointed out what happened instead of launching into a very wordy tirade, there probably would have been a different ending to the whole encounter. Short, sweet, and factual accounts usually get action. Long rants with lots of colorful language towards other users and administrators does not. That's it. I hope to see you around Wikipedia for a long time! spryde | talk 11:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Charity Island Light

Despite our prior disagreement, I am glad to see that you're still contributing. You are a valuable asset to Wikipedia.

On the article, I resequenced based on the WP:MOS, and removed some external links that already exist in the "Notes" section. As you commented on my talk page, I'm hoping I didn't cause an edit conflict for you. The only remaining change I was going to make was to change "Bibliography and further reading" to "Further reading" per WP:GTL#Further_reading, but I'll hold off in case you're still working on the article. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 22:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Just an FYI that I replied to you on my talk page. Incidentally, so you know why I have an interest in Michigan - that's where I grew up and attended college, and still have family scattered there and in Indiana. I now live in Washington state, but go back periodically to visit. I have an interest in some of the lighthouse articles, but I prefer working with WP:SHIPS, so will likely not touch many more lighthouse articles than those you've already seen me edit. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 00:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the compliment, although I think you give me too much credit. But, how about a trade of contribution effort. I've been wanting to create the Marquette Harbor Light article, and your reference sources would be invaluable. If you could provide a pile of sources for me on that one, I'll go ahead and see if I can expand on Charlevoix South Pier Light Station, and work some of the sources into in-text citations. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 00:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


I left a brief note at WP:AN/I regarding your complaint about Hu12 (talk · contribs). I didn't look much into the wikistalking thing, but I did note that he shouldn't use administrative rollback in content disputes. I'd also recommend that you don't get overheated in discussions and start using inflammatory terms.

That said, I was looking through your talk page and your contributions (oops, now I'm wikistalking) and I noticed you've been doing a lot of work on lighthouses, historic sites, and museums. Here's a useful link on an inventory of historic light stations in Michigan. I don't know if you've already used that site, but it could prove useful in filling in some of the fields in {{Infobox Lighthouse}}. I do a fair amount of work within Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places when I'm not being a heavy-handed admin, so you're welcome to check that project out. (Actually, I don't like to think of myself as being a heavy-handed admin, but I've been struggling with Calpis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) recently.) --Elkman (Elkspeak) 16:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Elkman:
Thanks for the information. So the record is clear, I don't willy-nilly go around making accusations, so you are in no danger. Nor do I think that you are being a "heavy-headed' admin. I've been using that particular inventory fairly often -- something I do is put in too many external links (which do have all -- or most -- of the pertinent information that you can find on line). The strategy is (I think anyway) to give readers what they need, even if we don't have it, and to give future editors at least a direction, so that they can make the article bigger, and eventually incorporate them in as line citations).
FWIW, I don't know anything about infoboxes, and I've been recruiting people (asher196 for example) to help me out, and he graciously has done that repeatedly. The quid pro quo is that he's recruited me to edit some articles. Of course, any sources that can help the quality of the product are greatly appreciated by me. So far that compartmentalization seems to work well.
Feel free to write anytime. Best regards. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC) Stan
I was pretty much joking about being a heavy-handed admin -- in fact, I've tended to think of myself as being a heavy-handed admin in situations before this. As far as infoboxes go, if you're interested in learning them, one way to learn them is to edit articles that already have {{Infobox Lighthouse}}, like Split Rock Light (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). --Elkman (Elkspeak) 17:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I answered some of your questions at my talk page. (You might want to watchlist it.) --Elkman (Elkspeak) 15:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Glad to see you're back

Now try not to keep me too busy.....Asher196 (talk) 04:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Huron Lightship

The image is indeed correct. From The Terry Pepper site: "The Huron then continued on under her own power to the Twelfth District Headquarters in Milwaukee, where she arrived on June 9th. Sported a bright red Hull with the word "RELIEF" painted on her hull sides, indicative of the purpose for which she was originally commissioned."....Asher196 (talk) 16:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll post that to the Huron Lightship talk page. Thank again. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)Stan

Tawas Point Light image

I'm drugged up right now, that's keeping me going. You can change the image back if you want. I just thought it looked better zoomed in. I don't think the article is long enough to warrant two images. It won't hurt my feelings if you go back to the other image....Asher196 (talk) 03:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Charlton Heston

I saw your question on the Charlton Heston talk page. Check out this link if you haven't seen it yet. Asher196 (talk) 02:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I put the link in as a reference in St. Helen, Michigan Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC) Stan

Granite Island Light

Check this out. Asher196 (talk) 18:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

St. Helena Island Light

Thanks for your hard work on this article. Bigturtle (talk) 23:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Round Island Light (Michigan)

Small changes and additions made, with story rearranged chronologically. 8,000+ bytes. Bigturtle (talk) 22:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Lewis lamp

Just wondering if you had any sources that provide more detail on Lewis lamps. I created the article about two weeks ago based on info from Terry Pepper and one other site; but if you have additional sources that could be used to expand the article a bit, that would be great.

I ran into one problem with the article; the two sources that I used have different information about some of the specifics on how Winslow Lewis acquired the contracts (so I left out a good portion of that detail, as I was uncertain as to which source was actually correct). I'm hoping that if additional sources can be found, they may help shed some light on the discrepancies between the other two. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 20:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I was pleased when those links went blue, but didn't think much about it. I've not given it any thought. I will in the next few days. Maybe its on line somewhere. Kind of old and obscure nautical trivia, I think. BTW, I trust Terry Pepper (although he does have typos, as he has done most of that work himself and without staff or support, and it is a huge data base -- I send him corrections and suggestions regularly, and we now occasionally do correspond -- bottom line, it is easy and inevitable to make mistakes. Of course, there are also limits to his knowledge. His website throws up his hands because he didn't know how to get to Charity Island Light, and I've corrected that in Wiki and let him know. Anyway, my main point is that if he doesn't have it, then it will be hard to find, because by and large he is a very good workman and researcher. I could look in my 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica (I think that's on line, too, but I have a hardback set). I'll get back to you. I've got a meeting to go to. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC) Stan

American Museum of Magic

My pleasure! Im a fan of anything 'magic' related. I think your article is interesting + wld be happy to help expand on it if you can provide further info +/or additional sources. Thanks! --15ParkRow (talk) 14:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The image they provided you must be public domain. Here is the Wikipedia policy:

"Wikipedia does not accept images that are licensed for "non-commercial" use, licensed only to Wikipedia, for which permission is required for reuse, or that do not permit derivative works to be created. There are several reasons for this policy, but the short version is that Wikipedia's mission is to provide free content and having images encumbered by restrictive licensing schemes runs counter to that mission" Asher196 (talk) 21:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say this isn't going to be easy. You have to get the copyright holders permission to release this image to the public domain. This article explains exactly what to do and provides a sample letter you can use to get permission. This is the legal way to do this. The other way to do it is to upload the image to Wikipedia and claim to be the author of the image, and release it yourself. I don't recommend that.Asher196 (talk) 02:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Portage Lift Bridge

Of course the Lift Bridge is important to Keeweenaw County. So is the Mackinaw Bridge, for that matter. Let's look at the paragraph in question:

The Portage Lift Bridge crosses Portage Lake, connecting Hancock and Houghton, Michigan, by crossing over Portage Lake, which is part of the river and canal system that crosses the entire peninsula. The Portage Lift Bridge is the world's heaviest and widest double-decked vertical lift bridge. Its center span "lifts" to provide 100 feet (30 m) of clearance for ships. Since rail traffic was discontinued in the Keweenaw, the lower deck is used to accommodate snowmobile traffic in the winter. This is the only land based link between the north and south section of the Keweenaw peninsula, and is crucial.[2]

The paragraph creates the mistaken impression on a reader unfamiliar with the area that it is within Keeweenaw County. Of the whole thing, for reasons known only to the author of the paragraph, only the final sentence is in any way pertinent to Keeweenaw County - and it is only pertinent if the lift bridge should be out of commission for a significant period. If that is a serious possibility, the paragraph fails to mention it. In my opinion it does not belong in an article on Keeweenaw County, so I decline your nomination. Plazak (talk) 19:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Bois Blanc Light

I rewrote the article. Take a look and see what you think.Asher196 (talk) 03:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


I did not intend to remove so much of the material. It was some sort of bug in the rollback function that I used. I only meant to remove the portion that I removed in my second edit. I removed it because I felt that it was written in a way that seemed to promote the Community Center's activities and that one particular event (the one in May) seemed very unnotable. I do see how including the presence of the Community Center can be notable, I just don't think that was the best way to do it. I'll go ahead and re-insert the presence of the community center. -Drdisque (talk) 02:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Granite Island

If there was an info box on the lighthouse (not sure there was) it's gone now. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 02:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC) Stan

I'm not sure what to do here. The article is about the island, and as such, has an island infobox. Should I add another infobox for the lighthouse?Asher196 (talk) 01:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back

Glad to see you're back. I hope you have your connection issues resolved....Asher196 (talk) 03:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Had to depend on my neighbor's satellite connection, which is at best intermittent. Much better here. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 03:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Stan

Round Island Light (Michigan)

There must be a mistake on the Terry Pepper site. He lists the focal plane as 53 feet and the tower as 57 feet. That can't be right. You may want to write him and ask. The focal plane can't be less than the tower height unless tower is sitting in a hole. NPS says the tower height is 53 feet. (talk) 23:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I already did that concerning Whitefish Point Light. Part of this (I think) is that the tower is measured from the base to the top of the vent on the light. The focal height plane is measured from the center of the lens as against the mean high water mark. I wrote to him because I had the same reaction you did. Typically, one loses 2 1/2 to 4 feet from the distance form the middle of the light to the tip of the vent. The factor then is where the mean high water mark is.
I also wrote to him about Sturgeon Point Light -- he wrote to me and admitted he had it wrong.
As a result of all this correspondence, he completely redid the lighthouse tower height chart, put together a whole new spread sheet, and put in references for the source of each of his figures. He has a collection of original coast guard documents.
He also did a completely new chart, which is now the focal height plane chart. If you go to the Whitefish Point Light discussion, I put links to his two pages. As I said on the Whitefish Point discussion, he actually sent me photographs of the 1939 inventory, which listed the tower height, focal plane height, characteristics of the light, characteristics of the fog signal, and range of the light.
It would be possible (and I think Whitefish Point Light is an example), where the mean high water mark would overlap the base. This gives you some very odd looking numbers.
In the case of Round Island Light, he says the numbers from the cited Coast Guard chart happen to be identical. This is because you lose some at the top of the light, and you gain it back in the difference from the mean high water mark to the base. Take a look at the data yourself. Terry goes to considerable lengths in his discussion on the two charts to explain it. I think I understand it, and I've tried to articulate my understanding. I hope you agree.
Maybe this discussion should be put in the Round Island discussion. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Stan
I'm having a hard time visualizing how this happens, but I won't make an issue out of it, as I'm sure he knows what he is talking about. If you could send me a copy of that sketch, I would appreciate it.Asher196 (talk) 03:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Tower height vs. Focal Height

Thank you for the emails. The source of my confusion was the conflicting ways that tower height is reported in various web sources. In some places it apparently means from the ground to the ventilator ball. In others it means the height of the structure from the ground to the lens/service room. Now I'm wondering about the accuracy of many of these articles in that respect.Asher196 (talk) 15:40, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Me too. Terry Pepper just redid his two lists (tower and focal) in his data base, with references. He did it as a result of some of my questions (particularly about Sturgeon Point). I think he's trying to be consistent, and he has original documents, so he's closer than most of the other sources. Not to mention that he's spent 15 years compiling this stuff. Of course, we have the Coast Guard light lists (historical and Volume 7), and the Michigan government list and the National Park Service inventory. As I've been working through these articles, I've put all those links into them, so it is pretty straight forward to find the right link. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Stan
I would also add that height from mean water mark is used by the Coast Guard in its light lists. And it is most relevant as a source for figures for triangulation by mariners (before GPS), who were trying to extrapolate their position from the sizes of the lighthouse(s) on (and from) the horizon. Ventilator balls could (and sometimes were) used, but mean water mark to focal plane is more visible over a much greater distance. I'm no Terry Pepper, but that's what the explanations in his data tables say (IMO) 7&6=thirteen (talk) 10:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC) Stan


Casual question: What is template reflist|2 and how is it different from reflist? Bigturtle (talk) 23:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

They're actually the same template: {{reflist}}. The |2 added to the end is a template variable that causes the references to be generated in two columns instead of one (note: on some browsers, even with the |2 added, the list still displays in a single column). --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 23:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
See WP:CITE#Say where you found the material for more details....Asher196 (talk) 23:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I have little to add. I only put those in because some of these reference lists were (a) getting long; (b) contained relatively short lines; (c) seemed to look better in the context of the article (filling up voids). As I am no expert like Barek in the finer nuances of Wiki philosophy and policy, I can't give you a citation. The downside is that the type is smaller in the "footnotes." Ultimately, this seems to be a question of aesthetic and editorial judgment, and I would imagine that opinions can and will differ on the subject. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 10:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC) Stan

Hoffmaster State Park

Sorry, I was trying to get rid of the Contents box, which seems to show up in an awkward place. I have undone the deletion of references. Jllm06 (talk) 02:41, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank You

Thank You for your kindness, you took the time out to encourage me on my talk page... I am new to contributing and really do want to help. It makes me feel good when I know a subject and want to contribute.  :) --Crimson Red Fox (talk) 19:43, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Lighthouse infobox

In the coming days, I'm going to be creating a new Lighthouse infobox template, as I'm not happy with the current one. Some changes I want to make include allowing for user to create the text at the top of the infobox, instead of taking on the name of the article. Also, I want to create separate Tower height and Focal height headings instead of the current Height and Elevation. Are there any other changes you would like to see?....Asher196 (talk) 22:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

As a general rule - it's a bad idea to fragment the infobox usage. Better to tweak and adjust the current infobox rather than create a second one. Every time multiple infoboxes get created, there ends up being a project at some point down the road to merge them all together again. Why not skip the middle step and go straight to having a single unified version that allows more options than the current one, but is still compatible with the older usage of the infobox?
If you need a hand with the template syntax, let me know. I'm not an expert, but between another wiki on which I used to be an administrator plus my time here, I've created and modified several. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 22:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I brought my concerns to the talk page of the current Lighthouse template on May 23 and received no response. I didn't want to act unilaterally and edit a template that is used in hundreds of articles. Frankly, I'm afraid I would screw something up.Asher196 (talk) 02:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
If you look at one of the infoboxes that I've cobbled together, (Sturgeon Point Light?) maybe, I think I have everything that needs to be in there. You need original lens, current lens, original range, current range, NHR Number, station creation date (real useful if there have been multiple lights on a site), tower creation date, intensity, markings, shape, owner, operator (if different than owner), website (maybe?), characteristic, disposition of previous lens, location, active, open to public. And of course, there are those other things that show up in lighthouse info boxes, but I don't remember them, and don't know what they are (they're probably from overseas). State historic register status? I think that's all I can think of for now. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC) Stan
You could also have a section for "Private Aid to Navigation" which one would put "Yes" or "No" on. This relates to USCG status on certain lights that are no longer officially "Coast Guard" lights. Sometimes the Coast Gurd talks about dates (e.g., May to Nov.) during which a light is operational. I think the Structure includes whether it is free standing etc., and is subject to interpretation. If you look at Volume 7 of the Coast Guard material, there may be other things they deem relevant. Hope that helps! 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC) Stan

Take a look at Harbor Beach Light. The range and characteristic entries (from USCG Vol. 7) have some interesting implications. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:24, 13 June 2008 (UTC) Stan

Location could be more definitively displayed. Take a look at the things they put in their webpage at Michigan Lighthouse Conservancy, Harbor Beach Light. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 01:52, 13 June 2008 (UTC) Stan

How to add user icons on my talk page

How do I add user icons on my talk page? I've found the icons but don't know what to do to put them on my page. --Crimson Red Fox (talk) 23:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Fox: I don't know. But Barek will, and he monitors this page. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC) Stan
Do you mean user boxes, or icons for navigating?
The easiest way to learn is to find another user page that has what you want, click "edit" and copy the code (don't hit save on their page - you want to view and copy, not accidentally change their page) - you can then go to your page and paste it there. Then you can edit it down to change it however you want.
There's actually a lot of variations in user-page design ... some can get some very complex coding (more than I usually like to get involved with myself). Your best bet is to find a relatively simple layout as a first version to emulate on your page ... then add and modify it as you learn more. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 02:56, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Using Sortable Tables

In order to add to the table, just copy another listing, past it by alphabetical listing, and put in the new information for a different museum. I am still adding listings for museums in Michigan, and later I will put in the regions. It's a big state! If I find an existing Wiki article that should include a museum, such as some museums that are part of a state park so the Wiki article is titled the park, I create a sub-heading for the museum and then link the article into the Category:Museums in Michigan. I'm trying to corral all the stray articles into the museums category. Any help is appreciated! I've worked on other states and I hope to work on all 50 states to make as complete listings as possible. Jllm06 (talk) 12:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Mid or Central Michigan

I did some major cleaning up of this page, so if you've got some time, check it out. Also, due to disputes between Southern Michigan and Central Michigan I made Southern Michigan a subregion of central Michigan. This way, both parties will get their way. Check it out and help me out if you get the chance. Cgord (talk) 16:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Harbor Beach Light

I'm afraid you have some old information about the light and fog signal. The light and fog signal are active all year. They are solar powered. This information came from the US Coast Guard and members of the Preservation Socity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HB Edit (talkcontribs) 23:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand where you have gotten your information. But the document you have is dated 2007. The information I received is current and was given to me by the people that are responsible and maintain the light.--HB Edit (talk) 01:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

It's important to note that the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. What that means is that the core policies of Wikipedia mandates that the articles contain verifiable information from reliable sources. If you have a reliable published source that states the alternate information, then please provide information about where it's published so we can make the change in the article. If not, then the central policies of Wikipedia mandate that we use what can be externally verified, even if it's currently outdated, until such a time that more accurate data is published. Using information gained from conversations, emailed questions, chat forums conversations, direct observation, etc is considered original research, and is not acceptable as a source for content within Wikipedia articles. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 01:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I noticed you changed the Harbor Beach Light as alternating red and white. Stand in front of the light some evening and you will see that the Light is not flashing white. I stopped off at the Coast Guard and they had an update to the light list, but didn't have hard copy of the document. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HB Edit (talkcontribs) 00:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC) --HB Edit (talk) 00:15, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Coast Guard web site

Apparently the USCG is changing their site. My old links don't work anymore, and I can't access the images. Hopefully this is fixed soon.Asher196 (talk) 02:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I tried accessing the images at the new URL, but they still are not available.Asher196 (talk) 02:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

FYI on U.S. Coast Guard list of Michigan lights

The Coast Guard has changed the URL on its list of Michigan lights. The URL must now end with ".asp" not "html." This is going to need to be changed on all those other articles. Hope this helps. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 02:37, 18 June 2008 (UTC) Stan

It seems that they are not done updating their site, as I was able to view the images of the Massachusetts lights.Asher196 (talk) 02:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Still not able to access the images from USCG. Have you had any luck?Asher196 (talk) 19:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Me neither. Very annoying. I get to the general page, but the photos don't go through. I presume this is a temporary interruption. If I find out there is an oening, I'll certainly let you know. 22:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC) Stan

Trial movies

Great to hear from you...glad that your still contributiong to Wiki. Given your legal background you are a great addition to our Wiki goal -- to provide an excellent FREE encyclopedia. Actually, I drop your name often to explain the quality folks who are helping out.....that said, check out the article...I edited for NPOV and took out the tags.... My best -- ♦ Luigibob ♦ "Talk to Luigi!" 16:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Cheboygan Crib Light

I responded to your kind invitation by doing some article rewriting. I hope you like the changes; as always you can revert any you like. Thanks as always. Bigturtle (talk) 04:24, 30 June 2008 (UTC) }BT: Thank you. I can always use the help. Especially good writing and editing. Sometimes I'm just trying to put in place a lot of sources and info, and I don't always have the perspective (or the time) to properly edit. Asher and I have done a lot of work on Waugoshance Light‎, and I'm sure it could benefit from your deft touch. The on line sources are all there, so have at it. Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 04:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC) Stan

McGulpin Point Light

Please note that I have written a few words on the 1868 McGulpin Point Light; the subject deserves much more attention. I was happy to read a recent news story that indicated that this historic lighthouse near Mackinaw City, long inaccessible to the public, may become accessible soon. Bigturtle (talk) 02:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

BT: Nice beginning. You and Asher made big progress. I'll try to assist in the next couple of day, at least by putting in the external links. Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 02:52, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Stan
"19" thanks to you for finding 19 external links for this article. Bigturtle (talk) 15:21, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
And I think they're pretty good links, too. . . . Thanks for starting the article. If you peruse the links, there's still a fair amount of info (to the limited extent it's known) about McGulpin('s) point. If somebody had some books, maybe we could find some more info -- altho' a lot of this seems to be obscured by time, given that it closed up at the beginning of the 20th Century -- and if Terry Pepper doesn't have it, then it's not easily recoverable, I would guess. I actually was very specific in my searches -- just filling in the blanks, so to speak, when I used the Mackinac Point links as a template. So I haven't actually done a generalized google search of this lighthouse, which sometimes really brings up something useful. It also helps to pay attention to the links in the various articles that I've already uncovered. BTW, you might want to take a look at the Crisp Point Lighthouse Society webpage (there's a link in Crisp Point Light, as they have a really good collection of websites. The University of North Carolina (link in McGulpin Point has good general info, too. Stay in touch. It's good working with you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:34, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Stan

Happy Fourth of July

Hey Stan. I wish you the best 4th of July ever....your friend.... ♦ Luigibob ♦ "Talk to Luigi!" 20:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Happy Independence Day to you, too
I was out of town, so pardon the delay. Happy 4th of July. And soon, Happy Bastille Day, which after all features what I believe is a much more stirring national anthem, "La Marseillaise"! Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 02:28, 9 July 2008 (UTC) Stan
Thank you sir. Agreed on all points. Yes, quite an incredible song. The patriots all sing the song in the historic Casablanca (film). It always brings a tear to my eye. We all, Americans, French...always look towards freedom. ♦ Luigibob ♦ "Talk to Luigi!" 11:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Much better song -- lyics and music -- than The Star Spangled Banner, which after all was written to the tune of a British pub song, and almost nobody can hit that high. It's at best a mediocre song. The English translation of "La Marseillaise" is quite stirring with blood running in the streets and all. You are quite right about Casablanca (film) -- and it is one of the great moments in film. Best again. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:18, 9 July 2008 (UTC) Stan

Trial films, part two

Yes, I'm sure you are right. Let's work on it together next week. I'm so busy right now. Your friend -- Luigibob (talk) 23:19, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Me too. Works for me. I also invited carptrash (Einar) along for the ride. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:02, 11 July 2008 (UTC) Stan
Thanks for contacting me...yes, I think we are moving along with the article. We might want to work on the intro a bit. An article on just a list is frowned upon by Wikipedians, so we need to work on the body of the article. Still busy since it's the political season.... Best, your friend -- Luigibob (talk) 05:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Reuter House on NRHP list?

Hi ... I'm in the process of converting all of the Michigan county NRHP lists to a standardized table format per WP:NRHP. I see that you added the Irving Jacob Reuter House to the Eaton County list last November. As best as I can determine, this site is not on the National Register. It doesn't come up in a search of the NRHP database and the State of Michigan Historic Sites Online website, it is only listed being on the state register. Do you have a source that indicates that it's on the National Register? Thanks. --Sanfranman59 (talk) 17:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply ... I checked out the references in the article and while I found reference to the Michigan State Register, there's no specific mention that I could find that this site is on the National Register. Per WP:NRHP, the county RHP lists are for places that are on the National Register only, as is (note that the introductory sentences in both the Eaton County list article and the RHPs in Michigan category specify the National Register). For this reason, I omitted the Reuter House from the Eaton County RHP list table that I created earlier today. Unless you object, I'm also going to remove the RHP category from the Reuter House article. --Sanfranman59 (talk) 01:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Harbor Beach Light

Hi. I've responded to your message on my talk page, in order to keep the conversation all in one place. Ipoellet (talk) 15:06, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Alexander Macomb (American general)

I've responded to your message re:Macomb on my talk page, as well. Ipoellet (talk) 23:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Charity Island edits

I saw the edits by the anon and yourself. Just some thoughts in case they try to re-remove the content: I'm not sure as to the anon's reasons for the edits; but mentioning the specific company by name could by an issue with Wikipedia's anti-spam/advertising guidelines. But as they didn't give an edit summary, I honestly don't know their actual reasons. If that was why he/she removed it, I think it can be cleaned up just by dropping the company's name - no need to wipe out the full paragraph like the anon did. If they do it again, you may want to try starting a dialog with them, and/or just dropping the company name as a compromise that allows the paragraph to remain. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 23:04, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Military person template

Here is a link to the template page for a military person Click here. The template page gives all the information you need to add information to the infobox. I started adding some info for the Macomb page, but you may have more expertise with this person. Asher196 (talk) 02:52, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'll work on it, you need some rest! Have a safe trip....Asher196

Left you a present

Hi Stan, I left you a little present on all of your Micihgan Light pages. Hope you like it. Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 11:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Lighthouse template

Hi Stan, I've added Poe Reef Light. If you want to edit the template directly click on "v" in the "vde" in the title bar. That takes you to the template; then to edit you just edit that page similar to an article page. If you aren't comfortable editing certain things in the code, you can leave requests on the template talk page. Here's a link to Template:Lighthouses of Michigan...and you can continue to ask me if you want. I just wanted you to know in case I weren't available. What time did you get up this morning? I noticed you were on shortly after I was and I'm on east coast time. I take it you aren't at the library this morning.

Enjoying the coffee at home...⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Berean: Had to come back home; have business to attend to in Detroit this morning. 5:00 a.m. EST. Poe Reef Light is kinda short, but the links are in (lots of info there), so if you feel like editing, you are cordially invited. Thanks for giving me the info on the info(box). 7&6=thirteen (talk) 12:34, 3 August 2008 (UTC) Stan
There was a great Irish pub called Plunkett's just across the water in Windsor..I don't know if it is still there but if you if feel adventurous...
Too many pokers in the fire to undertake the text additions you seek at the present. My sandboxes stay pretty active and I've got a big wikilist. I'm working my way adding other lighthouse templates state by state..since MI I've added VA, MD, DE, SC, GA, FL...and will proceed with that for a while. I have other templates and projects in the oven. I began assessing the articles on MI lights as I have been for the other states as well as I've worked with the templates. You're right, most are stubs and desperately need "meat & potatoes" writing added to them...what's holding you back? Your knowledge of the subject & access & familarity to the sources makes you an optimal candidate to add that. I'm on the lower part of the learning curve about lighthouses. That is why I decided to try to contribute with something I could accomplish...a tool to assist you & other editors with navigating between the articles. I'm learning about lights though...I have to continue to edit lightly in the meantime.
I'm still working on supporting material for an article that I recently put out. It is on Wikipedia's main page today in the "Did you know" section. If you want a change of pace from editing then pick your favorite beverage and eyeball *this*. Have a good Sunday, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 13:32, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Never been to Plunkett's. Thanks for the suggestion. As to the editing of other states, I actually did (a few) for Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota and Wisconsin, where I put in the 'good links' in a few articles, in the hope that somebody else might pick up the torch. My main focus now is to create (or update) all of the Michigan lighthouse articles, and that takes a lot of time. i've been very good at adding the on line resources to the articles I've worked on (which gives the readers a place to go to get the best on line info, pictures, etc.), and reasonably good at adding books -- I try to pick up any special books related to the article (see, e.g., Point Betsie Light). I have added a lot of substance to the arttilces and in line references, but with the exception of a few lighthouses, have only scratched the surface. With 149 lighthouses in Michigan (editors might differ on the number -- there are a lot of lights that have disappeared, and then there are paired range lights, for example, and one might or might not count them, so people might differ on the count -- some on line sources claim only 115 lights) -- in any event this is a huge undertaking, and I have (with a couple of minor exceptions) avoided writing on articles in other state and off the Great Lakes. The sources elsewhere are different, and I don't know if they have the equivalent of Terry Pepper, who is (IMHO) the gold standard for on line resources. I've also helped get the infoboxes straightened out. In any event, my main intent is to get all the Michigan lighthouse articles created or updated, and that is taking a lot of time and effort. Keep up the good work, Berean. Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 13:46, 3 August 2008 (UTC) Stan

Waugoshance Light

Both Terry Pepper and the USCG site say that the light is encased in iron plate. From Terry Pepper, "In order to effect the most nearly permanent repair possible with the technology available, the decision was made encase the entire structure in 3/8" thick boiler plate, riveted together, and leaving sufficient space between the iron and the masonry for filling with a layer of concrete. Bids were let for the contract on July 1, 1883, Buhl Iron Works Company of Detroit was the lowest bidder at $23,000, and was thus awarded the contract for the work. " From the USCG "Construction Materials: BRICK ENCASED W/IRON PLATE Tower Shape: CONICAL (ENCASED IN IRON IN 1883)" Which source is saying that the material is steel? Asher196 (talk) 14:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I am going to post your note and my replace on the talk page of Waugoshance Light. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC) Stan

Waugoshance Light

You make a good point. There is clearly a split in the various sources.
The National Park Inventory says "Iron", too.
However, these two say steel:

}I note that Big Sable Point Light, Little Sable Point, New Presque Isle Light and Spectacle Reef Light, which are roughly contemporary, had steel, too. (I think). Additionally, in the time frame the growth of the iron and steel industry was a big part of the context in which this all occurred.

Of course, Terry Pepper is generally so meticulous and better researched than most other sources, so perhaps we should rely on him. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC) Stan

Link to

I've reverted your link to in Lighthouses in the United States because site is promoting marinas in the vicinity of lighthouses, and I do not believe it is an appropriate link for Wikipedia. -- Donald Albury 21:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Dear Donald: Thanks for your note. I agree, of course, that they have a website that has a commercial purpose. But I did not include it for that reason. I've been working on lots of lighthouse articles, and am well familiar with the information that is available on line. It is my opinion that the particular photographs that they offer are a real potential bonus for our readers. They are unique and better than alternative sources. I do not know which article you were referring to. In any event, I think that there is room in Wikipedia and there is room under Wiki policy for such a website, provided that it has suitable content and a proper purpose. I would suggest that you chat with Barek about this. He is a premier spam fighter, and will provide you with wise counsel. Whatever he says is something I will live with. Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC) Stan

FYI: I added my comments at User talk:Donald --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 21:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Alpena Light

I have made some amendatory changes to the Alpena Light article, but as you can see they primarily consist of moving words and sentences around rather than adding or subtracting things. Some editors, such as myself, tend to differentiate "history" from "what the lighthouse looks like/its function/its cultural value today," and my edits tend to reflect this desire to differentiate.

I myself think it is very appropriate to have how-to-see-the-lighthouse driving descriptions in our articles, where these directions are made appropriate by local conditions and circumstances. If a particular lighthouse is tough to locate, and somebody can't find the lighthouse, then they will not be able to appreciate it; giving out directions is a reasonable use of Wikipedia's database function. However I suppose some might disagree. I believe there is, or was, an item of guidance that stated that "Wikipedia is not a guidebook" (or some such phraseology). This guidance may have been drafted when Wikipedia was more closely affiliated with Wikitravel than it is now.

Thanks again for your very hard work on this and many other articles. Bigturtle (talk) 22:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC

BT, I agree with you totally. I don't know about Wikitravel, and presume that I am violating a lot of supposed rules. That being said, I think it helpful to give the users some useful information, and all this qualifies in spades. As to organization, your splits are logical and helpful. Obviously, reasonable minds could differ, but form ought to follow function. If the structure works well in a particular article given its nature and content, then it is obviously a right form. I've never been a believer in cookie cutter writing, unless it particularly fits. I was just working on Au Sable Light which could use your help. This drafting by committee can work quite effectively, as we've just proved. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC) Stan

Temporary setback

Hi Stan, I ran into problems *here* when I tried working at the commons. I plan to give it another shot on a different computer. I've just had some routine scheduling changes and might not be on wikipedia as much..have to see how the new schedule works out. Today was rough. Cheers,⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:04, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Good Morning Stan, the first image I uploaded at the commons was for Au Sable, but then I found out someone else must have helped you out by loading it here in WP. I should be able to handle photo uploads much easier than before..even though it means I have to power up a Windows machine to do it. 8^D I'll start looking for more USCG photos to add. Do you know of any that you want added? Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:43, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

United States lightship Huron (LV-103)

If you could help, references need to be cleaned up. I am trying to get this reassessed by WikiProject Michigan. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 11:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC) Stan

I'll do what I can. What specifically do I have to do with the references? Asher196 (talk) 02:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
I think I have the references fixed now. Take a look and see if I missed anything. If you want to learn how to use the same reference multiple times, just read Wikipedia:Citing sources#Using the same citation again Asher196 (talk) 02:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
That looks easy. Give a man a footnote, and he will have a better article. Teach a man to footnote and he can reference for life. Of something like that. Thanks, Asher. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 11:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC) Stan

Gaylord, Michigan and Colon, Michigan

I am keeping an eye on the articles and the IP via my Contributions page. ... discospinster talk 23:30, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

They are on my watch list. You do not have to carry the load by yourself. I can (and will) help. Let them violate the rules, and there can be repercussions. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:04, 25 August 2008 (UTC) Stan


If you have a good cure for kidney stones, I could use one about now.....Asher196 (talk) 02:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Sonic busting in a tub at a hospital at one time was perhaps the most effective cure. I am not current on the treatments (I once had a case that involved this, but that was nigh on to thirty years ago. There may be newer pharmaceuticals that can help with the pain and the condition, but I am not current. Very painful affliction (I am told). The affected party has my sympathy. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 02:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC) Stan
I have some good pain meds that are not doing the job right now....Asher196 (talk) 03:13, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Really good drugs would have been my answer, too. Afterwards, consider lifestyle changes if appropriate. I had my first stones in '92 and unfortunately had them 3-4 times since with the last in 2001. I've always passed them naturally (got a funnel to play catch with?) and the pain ranks right up there with excruciating dental pain. I hope you are already over it. If it turns out to be Calcium oxalate stones, consider taking magnesium, which binds more readily to the oxalate to prevent formation of stones...oh, and forget fruit juices like is a myth. Hope you get better Asher. I was coming 'round to check on Stan - he hasn't been 'assaulting' those lighthouse articles like usual. Hopefully a good vacation over Labor Day and not ill. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 19:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Things are well here. Just returning from a vacation (from Wikipedia and work). Hope Asher is feeling better. 12:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Passed the stone and feeling much better now. Asher196 (talk) 12:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Excellent on both counts. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 13:48, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Michigan Lighthouse pictures at Archives of Michigan

Fellow lighthouse editors: I have uncovered an awesome collection of Michigan lighthouse pictures, namely, the Archives of Michigan, which appear to be public domain, albeit requiring that they be credited as coming from the "Archives of Michigan." These could be wonderful additions to our lighthouse articles, if they are usable under wiki policy. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

I see where they only want credited (no problem) but I can't find anything giving a clear statement about it being in the public domain. Many appear to be of the USCG public domain variety. Have you seen it at their site? ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 20:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about their policy, other than what it said on each picture, which was the "please credit . . . " . I note that some of them Sturgeon Point lighthouse post card. aren't USCG. This is a really big collection, and is completely searchable. It would solve the problem (for example) we had with Big Bay Point Light, where we don't have a decent picture. The life saving pictures are awesome. There is a trove of invaluable pictures, not just about Michigan lighthouses, but including Wisconsin and Illinois lights. Here is an awesome picture on Tawas Point Light at Michigan archive, Tawas Point Light. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 20:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Stan
I'm looking into it..may take a few days for results. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 21:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Berean -- Thanks. Let me know what you find. This is really a breakthrough, potentially. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Stan
I wrote them over a week ago asking for clarification but haven't gotten a response regarding licensing for the photos. If we can find out that it is ok, I will proceed with loading them..not sure what approach to take from here. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 17:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Ile Aux Galets

I saw your changes to this article. They look good and I hope to do some edits soon. Bigturtle (talk) 21:51, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I have dropped a comment in the "Talk" section OK-ing the renaming of this article as Skillagalee Island. Sorry for the delay in getting back in this thread. I was out of town on a work-related trip in a setting where I caould read the Internet but could not easily add anything of length. Bigturtle (talk) 00:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


Just got back from a brush with death. I had a surgical procedure last week that went well, until the next day at home when a blot clot went to my lung. It was tense for a while, but I'm home now and ready to edit. Asher196 (talk) 23:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me for butting in but I'm glad you are alright now. I know you've been having it rough...the kidney stones alone should have filled your pain quota for a couple of years...hopefully this means you are overdue for a long healthy stretch. Wishing you good health! ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, I hope you're right! Asher196 (talk) 01:29, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Copper Island

Ambox warning pn.svg

An article that you have been involved in editing, Copper Island, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Copper Island. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Grosse Point Light

I will be working on the above on and off, I noticed you had compiled some sources. Any ideas which books are the best to go toward for info on this specific lighthouse? And, of course, any assistance with the article would be great. I have added a bit to it and done some clean up as well as setting up a few stub subsections for my future work.--IvoShandor (talk) 10:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I would recommend the Putnam book because of who he is. Other than that, I have no idea as to the specifics of the GPL in the literature. Sorry. I added in most of the common websites. I don't personally know of Illinois websites that are not listed, but it might be worth a look. If yo google Grosse Point light, there may be more out there. The Terry Pepper site has a lot of good info and is very well resarched (I would rely on Terry over most other sources, because he is meticulous), as is the Lighthouse Digest. Grosse Point Light is unique, as he latter indicates, in that it has an organized support group, while the rest of the Illinois lights don't. Another thing that is missing from this article is the lighthouse building frenzy on the Great Lakes of which is was a part. See Sturgeon Point Light for example. Because of the NHRP documents, etc, you've got a rally fine base from which to work. Best of luck in your efforts.

Copper Island

FYI: The normal AfD process is five days. At the end of five days, someone (usually an admin) will review the postings and will make a decision based on the comments. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 16:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Michigan Trails

Hi Stan, does this template work? ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I think so, but I know not very much about templates or Michigan hiking trails. I would say post it on the trails, and see what happens, if anything. I would think that if you put them on these main trails, they will get used, and maybe edited, too. Thanks for doing this.b 01:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC) Stan
Here's a quick source on a bunch of trails that may (or may not) have articles. Michigan Hiking trails. Another Pure Michigan Hiking Trails. And of course, there are the National Parks, Isle Royale, Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore, Sleeping Bear Dunes and the various Michigan State Parks including Porcupine Mountains State Park, Hartwick Pines State Park, Grand Island and Grand Island National Recreation Area] near Munising, etc. I don't know if those should be included? 7&6=thirteen (talk) 01:48, 2 October 2008 (UTC) Stan
Good Morning, I used "Hiking Trails in Michigan" as well as the "Rail trails in Michigan" categories for the entries in the template. I didn't see parks per se when looking at the Pennsylvania Trails but I will look closer later today. I am kind of waiting to see other editor reactions, if any, to reveal possible mistakes that I may have made with conventions or whatnot. I left Bicycle trails alone. I also created the same template for NC. Once things are ironed out, I could make them for the other states. I'll be watching these guinea pigs.⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Good morning to you too, Berean. I agreed, and think templates are potentially very useful for our users. This will be a journey and learning experience. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 12:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC) Stan

Battle of Platsburg

Hi and nice to meet you! Do you have any reference to the said award? I reverted when I saw it had been wedged in between the last sentence and citation. I am not doubting your good faith by the way you seem to have done a nice job around wiki Tirronan (talk) 21:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Lighthouses in Michigan

Thanks for your note.

Actually, WP:EL specifically requires the minimum number of external links for an article; the logic applies to "Further reading" sections as well. Links and other sources that might be useful for expansion are supposed to be stored on the article's talk page. (I'm not saying it's always the best solution; I'm just telling you the official solution for this situation.)

I have no particular interest in either lighthouses or Michigan. The only reason that any of these articles are on my edit list is because the "Further reading" section uses a section heading that is both non-standard and specifically deprecated: "Bibliography and further reading". Wikipedia, according to the wisdom of its thousands of editors, finds the term "Bibliography" confusing. The term is therefore reserved solely for sections that list works by a single author, in the Wikipedia article about that author. About half a percent of referenced articles (mis)use this term (according to the "house style", not according to the typical teacher of English literature, but it's the house style that matters here), and I am very slowly cleaning up some of these articles. If you want me to ignore the articles, then you might correct that heading to "Further reading". I'd be thoroughly pleased to find that a search for "Bibliography and further reading" (quoted phrase) comes up empty instead of with fifty Michigan-related articles.

You might, while correcting those headings, also correct the order of the appendices, which should (always) be:

  • See also
  • References (or Notes: either heading is officially accepted)
  • Further reading
  • External links

There are more details at WP:LAYOUT if you're interested. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC) (who is not watching this page)

Dear WhatamIdoing,
Thanks for your prompt response. I will (in due course) eliminate the "Bibliography" as I do not want to upset the editors or buck the standards. I don't particularly care what we call it == it was a formulation that was intended to combine the notions of sources for the article and other sources that could be of some use. As to the order, that is sometimes a problem. Sometimes the "Further reading" is footnoted, and it then won't be picked up in the References or Notes.

only looks backward, so to speak. I'm going to be out of the office for the next few days, but will try to get to this in the next ten days. Thanks again. Cheers. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 02:48, 14 October 2008 (UTC) Stan

I took care of checking/changing Lights A-L (ending Ludington Light)...headed to bed now but hope to lend a hand, time-depending over the next couple of days. I don't think "Further reading" is supposed to be footnoted right? eeeuw! Messy. You may want to check behind me in case there are some broken refs that I didn't see. G'nite, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 04:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: Wikisource link

Hi, thanks for your message. I just added Template:Wikisource to Frank Murphy and linked it to wikisource:en:Author:Frank Murphy.--Neo-Jay (talk) 16:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

St. Helena Island Light

This light has broken citation tags that were in the article before I started refactoring. Look under "Current status" section. Also two of the refs are ref'ed themselves..probably a rewrite of the format would fix those. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 19:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

You are very kind. It's pretty funny coming from the workhorse's mouth, too. I'm used to seeing all of YOUR edits and recognizing your dedication.

Smiley icon.svg

It has been enjoyable editing on the lights and I think I have gained a fair interest in the subject along the way as well. There's still so much to do...Cheers,⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Frank Murphy

I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand what you mean. I posted his WWI service under the 'military service' section on the infobox, and someone else had already posted it in his biography in the article. Is there somewhere else I should post it as well? - Packerfansam 18 October 2008

It's no problem, just wanted to make sure we were understanding each other. - Packerfansam 18 October 2008

Fred M. Vinson

This picture might be a good addition in the Supreme Court section. Wikimedia Commons, bust of Fred M. Vinson. I don't know how to do that. What do you think? 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC) Stan

You simply use the same image name from Commons. I added it to the section you suggested. I think it looks good. Asher196 (talk) 15:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


Userpage Protection Barnstar.PNG The Userpage Shield
Thanks for getting rid of that vandalism on my talk page! I had no idea it was there. I hereby award you The Userpage Shield Barnstar Asher196 (talk) 03:07, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Spectacle Reef Light

With respect to the new article on Spectacle Reef Light, thank you as always for your hard work. The following questions are not meant to question the underlying article, but could provide some guidance on how to make it even better:

1-- Is Spectacle Reef Light still the most expensive lighthouse built on the Great Lakes, or was that the case when the light was built in the 1870s and not any more?

2-- What were the names of the two schooners lost on the reef in 1867?

3-- Why is it significant that the Lighthouse Board had to charter a steamer to carry materials to the site? I assume that this signified that the volume of material required was much greater than normal and this created unusual logistical challenges in the construction project, but this is not made clear.

4-- The light is "the best specimen of monolithic stone masonry in the United States" - who said that? Citation please.

5-- Bois Blanc Island (Michigan) is the nearest land - but what is the compass interrelationship between the two? I believe Bois Blanc is generally to the northwest of the reef and Spectacle Reef to the southeast of the island - please clarify.

6-- How can the second-order Fresnel lens be the "original" lens when a temporary fourth-order lens preceded it?

Thank you for your consideration of these questions, Bigturtle (talk) 00:09, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

BT, good questions all. I took the liberty of inserting numbers on your queries, so tha the answers will be more easily understandable.
1. All the sources agree that this was the most expensive lighthouse built on the Great Lakes. Terry Pepper and the Coast Guard. There were lighthouses built later, including Stannard Rock. As you will see that too was an expensive lighthouse, but the start up costs incurrd in doing Spectacle Reef benefited the 1878 construction. That is now discussed in the article As you will see when you start gunking around in the sources, virtually all of the published articles (on line) track the U.S. Coast Guard rendition of the history of this light. In fact, I think it came from the U.S. Coast Guard historical lighthouse book -- U.S. Coast Guard, Historically Famous Lighthouses (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1957). (I've not read it, but it is explicitly referenced in one of the sources I used, and those are available in the references and in the external links.
2. The schooners are explicitly named in the Terry Pepper article, and in several of the other sources. That was said to be a $300,000 loss.
4. "Best specimen of monolithic stone construction" is followed directly by a reference. "The Spectacle Reef Lighthouse cost $406,000 and is the best specimen of monolithic stone masonry in the United States. . . " is a quote from the Coast Guard article cited in footnote 11.
5. Bois Blanc was mentioned only because it was in most of the underlying articles, and was the closest land. Your are generally correct about the directions.
6. As to the Second Order being the "original" you are technically correct. But the underlying articles all say that the Fourth Order was put in as a temporary stop qap, and that the intention was always to put in the Second Order Henry Lepaute lens. Second Order lenses are extraordinary in Great Lakes. I think that only four were installed. More details on that side of the question are in the article on Grosse Point Light and the NRHP assessment. I think it took a while to get this delivered form Paris, and that is why they went with a temporary lens. I made an editorial judgment, but perhaps I could have expressed it better. Of course, trying to fill in the blanks on the infobox does not leave much room for an explanation (although I suppose it could be footnoted. so that we don't make a blatant misstatement of fact and mislead our esteemed readers).
I would like to point out that the Fourth order Fresnel was not installed in the lighthouse, but rather on top of one of the buildings at the site. I new Second order lens was installed in the completed lantern room of the lighthouse in the spring of 1874. Asher196 (talk) 19:08, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
7. Additionally, I am still somewhat bewildered about the range, type, and characteristic of the current lens. I put that on the discussion page. Trying to coalesce the (apparently) conflicting(or at least incomplete) information gave me some concern.
I have put in so many references in the article that I am confident you can relatively quickly find the sources for what I wrote. Therefore, I hope that you will not beput off by my failure to put them here too.
I hope that clarifies what I know and where it came from. As always, reasonable minds will differ at times, and a good editor will see the flaws in what I wrote. Not to mention that typing, grammar, syntax, and style are always subject to improvement. I also know that when I put together that amount of information in that short a time, there will be errors, and I will be blind to them (at least in the short term). That's precisely why I asked for your (and Asher's and Barek's) help.
Of course, if I can assist further in any way, please let me know.
Thanks for answering the call. Best regards, as always. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC) Stan

DYK nomination

Hi. I've nominated Spectacle Reef Light, an article you worked on, for consideration to appear on the Main Page as part of Wikipedia:Did you know. You can see the hook for the article at Template talk:Did you know#Articles created/expanded on October 29, where you can improve it if you see fit. Thanks --Bruce1eetalk 10:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. But it still is a work in progress, and is in the earliest stages of birth, so to speak.7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:57, 31 October 2008 (UTC) Stan
Hi Stan, I replied on my talk page.Cheers,
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:59, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Reply from/to wpwatchdog

Hello Stan, I am very new to Wikipedia etiquette and editing. I admire your work on Michigan articles. What do I do when I find an article that has been running totally off topic over the course of years? The Tawas Point State Park article is well done - I wouldn't venture to touch it at this point of my Wikipedia career. Wpwatchdog (talk) 18:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
WPwatchdog, I'm glad that you liked Tawas Point State Park. My only thought was that you had shown some r eal expertise about birding and finding sites on the subject matter, and the article would benefit from your (already demonstrated) expertise on the subject. I am confident that you could make a real serious contribution there. You should not hesitate to do this. This is a collaborative process, and that article does not have a whole lot of contributors (and I think I'm the only one that has written on the birding there. So the chances of your drawing fire, so to speak, is pretty small So I say just go for it. This is a pretty small and cooperative community that has been editing that article, and I think they will be receptive and helpful.
Note also that I reformatted your replies, as the indentation protocol, at least to about the fourth level, then back out again, is normal.
As to you question, I don't know exactly what to say. It depends on the article. It also depends on the other editors on that article. Some editors are cooperative, and some are protective and restrictive. Some think that they have a patent on the information, and that only their interpretation is correct. I would suggest that you might contact Asher196 and Barek and Bkonrad, as the two of them have more experience than I in editing in contentious and popular articles. I have done a whole lot of edits, but they are -- by and large -- in articles that are on the fringes of Wikipedia. There are not a whole lot of people vying to edit obscure Michigan lighthouse articles -- although the ones that do are part of a very good and cooperative community. My only point is that I have stayed away from some of the really big articles, like Michigan for example, because they seem to have constant editorial disagreements, and by my nature I am happier working alone or with small committees. Consequently, I went to work on Northern Michigan, offered some assistnce on the Thumb, gunked around on a bunch of communities I knew something about, and Frank Murphy because I knew something I knew about the subject matter, and because I felt those articles were wrong-headed (Northern Michigan) or woefully inadequate. I started out on the Outhouse article (under my IP address, not this name), and really rewrote it substantially. But in doing that, I always left the work that was in there mainly in place. I might move it, but I did not try to erase the prior efforts. I made changes incrementally. Choose where you go, and what you do carefully. And put in references. This will establish some street cred. Anyway, that is what I think FWIW. Hope that gives you some perspective. We need all the editing help we can get. If I can help, Please let me know. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:58, 2 November 2008 (UTC) Stan
Thank you so much for the encouragement. I did try to get adopted but so far, no luck - so please forgive my gaffes in Wikipedia protocol. I am not a bird expert by any means but I do know how to get reliable information about the birds at Tawas Point State Park. I will try some editing on that article when I have more information. Thank you for the tips and advice that I will put to good use. Diligently studying, Wpwatchdog (talk) 01:47, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Actually Stan, the Michigan article seems to have relatively little activity lately. Most editing on the page seems to revolve around updating stats and reverting vandalism. Maybe it's worth a look again. Asher196 (talk) 02:45, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I'll think about it and take a look. When you have that many editors and all that attention, even reasonable minds will differ, and the need to build consensus, or at least acquiescence, is very real. I've done some editing on various Supreme Court justices, but have gone very slow in messing with content on Hugo Black or William Douglas and such substantive articles as [[Jim Crow}} because the editors have put in a lot of time, research, and thought, and I don't went to write unless what I am saying is better said, better thought out, or better sourced. I've added sources, as these articles suffered from myopia, and did not recognize that we have a duty to provide 'sign posts' and 'maps' for our readers who want to do their own research, pointing them to sources. IMHO, that is something that Wikipedia can do quite well. That's why I'm always hot on the trail of a good bibliography or a great article that we can cite (or even bettter link) to. Anyway, I digress. Thanks for the advice. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 03:00, 3 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

DYK for Spectacle Reef Light

Updated DYK query On 6 November, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Spectacle Reef Light, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Politizer (talkcontribs) 03:25, 6 November 2008 UTC

Congratulations! --Bruce1eetalk 04:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


Oh, thanks for your message and visit.[7]Please do feel free to trim/shorten my edit. I was invited to contribute to WikiNews, and now on Wikiquote, but I find it so difficult to be a News and quote editor because of time and pressures. I am quite happy to share my wisdom here. But I thank you for your suggestions.
I added the Hugo Black quote, when, here in the Philippines (CNN cable), Obama[8] said: "And to all those watching tonight from beyond our shores, xxx to those who are huddled around radios in the forgotten corners of our world our stories are singular, but our destiny is shared,[9] xxx." Obama (I Have a Dream), echoed King, Jr.s' 1963 advocacy. Obama, Black and King, Jr. - are the greatest gift, in my life.[10] Since the Supreme Court of the United States, created under the Judiciary Act of 1789, convened for the first time on February 2, 1790, and since our Supreme Court of the Philippines was created on June 11, 1901, by Act No. 136, the Judiciary Law of the Second Philippine Commission, and since our first Philippine Chief Justice Cayetano Arellano assumed office on June 11, 1901, our Philippine courts and yours never punished a magistrate by the supreme penalty of separations from service: due to religious beliefs and alleged consultation of mystic and healing dwarves.

- William W. Bedsworth[11][12]

Since I studied Jesuit's philosophy and law (Ateneo de Manila University, 1971-1974, 1978-1982), I was never awed by any magistrate's ruling or judgment, than Hugo Black's immortal "ratio decidendi" - No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs. I lost my job, and now, I am jobless, because my own country's Justices punished me, since 8 of them were medically operated amid my dire prophecies, as Catholic. King, Jr. fought racial and civil rights discrimination because of color, but no African slave, judge or public servant like Condoleeza Rice were punished because of atheism or christian credo. I and only I was persecuted amid Hugo Black's immortal quote-ponencia. Obama gave me hope, that, IN TIME, in a future but certain moment of our destinies, judges and slaves will never be punished because of beliefs or disbeliefs. Obama erased color, but Obama might have not seen the pain of punishment due to religious beliefs. Witches were burned in the Middle ages-Inquisition, but King, Jr.s-Obama's times never saw witnessed the pain, my pain. Cheers.--Florentino floro (talk) 08:54, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


I'll certainly take a look when I have a minute. I really only got involved with Felix because his name amused me and I happened to be reading about him as part of my Learned researches. I'll see if any of the books I have on hand currently talk about Murphy, but after that I'll probably have had my fill of American judges!! Time for something closer to home! Thanks for asking though, and for the positive feedback too. --Slp1 (talk) 01:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, while I was reclining in my bath I peaked at Murphy's career as described in Peter Irons' "A People's History of the Supreme Court" , and quickly saw that Murphy was just my kind of judge. I can understand your enthusiasm, and perhaps you are right that it is an appropriate response to our difficult but amazingly changing (I hope) times. This Canadian will see what she can do.--Slp1 (talk) 02:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Re: SS Carl D. Bradley

Thanks for your suggestion. Unfortunately, since the article is not a new article, it needs to be expanded fivefold to qualify for DYK. (It was about 2500 characters long when you began the expansion yesterday, which means the reviewers at DYK won't accept it unless you can get it up to 12,500 characters.) —Politizer talk/contribs 13:46, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

five X will be quite an order. Thanks for the prompt response. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 13:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

Invitation-request to comment on ANI, Max v Floro & Floro v Max, for blocking

Hi, may I please request you to submit some comment on my[13]and User:Maxschmelling's twin petitions-complaints on the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents for blocking. Despite the long RFC, where Max lost, and was warned not to stalk me, since September 25, Max refused to stop stalking me and my edits. This is a sad day for Wikipedia. Cheers.[14]

--Florentino floro (talk) 05:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

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Hello, 7&6=thirteen. You have new messages at Berean Hunter's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Happy Thanksgiving to you!

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!

Hope you have enjoyed it. Leftovers are a good can enjoy it again tomorrow. :)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:15, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

errant line

What's an errant line? Peter Napkin Dance Party (talk) 18:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

An unneeded line that doesn't belong there. like this

20:07, 18 December 2008 (UTC)Stan

Merry Christmas!

Stan, I hope you & yours have a merry & joyous Christmas (or Hanukkah) and a blessed New Year! I hope your wishes come true and Santa is nice to you.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:25, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Glen Miller Park

The park is named after the man who use to own the land. In 1885 the city baught the farm of Colonel John Miller for 35,000$ and named the park after him, thus Glen Miller Park. Remember that 'glen' isn't a proper name, but rather a word to describe a small valley-type area.Peter Napkin Dance Party (talk) 20:36, 23 December 2008 (UTC) Thanks. Merry Christmas/Chanuka/Kwanza to you. Happy editng. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 20:48, 23 December 2008 (UTC) Stan

Thnx 4 the fix buddy!Peter Napkin Dance Party (talk) 06:46, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Happy New Year

Hi Stan, Thanks for your holiday greetings, and I return them too. I haven't forgotten about Frank, by the way. I will get to it, but real life is very busy recently. Soon, I hope!--Slp1 (talk) 17:11, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Happy New Years!
May your glass ne'er be empty...
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:23, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Template fix

I've created an "above" section just under the template title to illustrate that as a possibility but if you want it in the below section as a matter of preference, it would go into the line serially as such:

|below = '''Related topics''' – [[United States lightship Huron (LV-103)|Lightship ''Huron'']], [[List of lifesaving stations in Michigan]]

..would have accomplished what you were trying. As for the above section, I gave it a white background but if it needed to stand out more another color (very light shade) could be used to highlight the "See also" if you think that would be better. Change it (or have me do it) if it isn't as you want it yet.

I limited myself to a couple of Newcastles last night. I'm an ale man and can also be a hophead...but at the moment I'm hitting the coffee. I haven't had a wee heavy in a good the chewy malted barley flavor of them. It doesn't take much of that to illuminate your Christmas lights so you must have been shining pretty brightly last night. ;)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 13:51, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Reverts to the Niagara

Actually, it wasn't because the link was in the wrong article (in retrospect I probably should have explained in the edit summary). I just did not think the link added anything to the article. IMO, it's also not particularly interesting photo. There is, however, a similar photo on Commons (although it doesn't show the Toledo Harbor Light) that I wouldn't mind using and shows the ship in transit, but there is no room in the article for it. --​​​​D.B.talkcontribs 21:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

That photo is good artistically, but not encyclopedically. I did like the color photo he had. You could always see if Mr. Bradley would be willing to give permission for its use here (its currently marked as copyrighted). And good job on finding all these sources for the Toledo Harbor Light. Do you plan on expanding the article? --​​​​D.B.talkcontribs 22:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Just as long you're not thinking I'm trying to own the article, but yeah, sorry, it really does not do much for the article. Nothing wrong with working on obscure topics. There's less of a chance of getting into an edit war, is there (unless of course you like to argue with yourself) ;-) --​​​​D.B.talkcontribs 01:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

United States Conference of Mayors

Your edit at United States Conference of Mayors seems contrary to sources I have. Only readd it if you can properly source the information like the rest of the article.TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:02, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

William Cushing

Can you format the references you just added with WP:Citation templates? Thanks. Foofighter20x (talk) 19:09, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Replied on my talk page. Foofighter20x (talk) 19:23, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Again. :) Foofighter20x (talk) 19:43, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

RE: Point Iroquois Light

Hi there!

You're welcome - but it was actually my bot, User:Thehelpfulbot that cleaned up that page for you. If you give me a list of the pages that you want having similar clean up, I'll do it myself on my account - run a few scripts on the pages.

Hope this helps,

The Helpful One 16:10, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Done, I'm actually using some scripts for this work - making things very simple. User:AndyZ/peerreviewer gives you ideas about things to fix with articles and the "Autoformat per MoS" button does all the fixes I have done to the articles. The Helpful One 17:05, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Done, Bernard Madoff. The Helpful One 20:44, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi there,  Done the 2 that you asked - sorry about the delay but I was away for a few days! :) The Helpful One 11:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Re: Talk:Elijah McCoy

Thanks for the note re this page. Your addition of a header to the first section looks fine to me; the problem with the first para was a broken template, fixed now. Cheers :) Karenjc 21:34, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

User calebrod3294

This user is back and is doing a lot of destructive edits. He needs to be shut down NOW. {{help}} 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC) Stan

The editor is being warned as required. If he continues to make unsourced contributions, he will be blocked. Please don't place the helpme template on other user's talk pages as you have done at User talk:Vikingviolinist and User talk:Alansohn. Thanks. -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 01:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I apologize. I won't make that mistake again. I having been 'shooting flares' and not getting much of a response. Please take care of calebrod3294. Thank you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 01:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC) Stan

RE: Frank Murphy

Hi there,

I did what I could with some other scripts - but I don't think that it's really any use to you - however, may I suggest that you use the refToolbar - add it to your Gadgets on your preferences, to choose the cite template that is most appropriate for you?

Hope this helps,

The Helpful One 18:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

 Done Outhouse. The Helpful One 18:35, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

RE: Lansing, Michigan

Hi there,

I have reverted the IPs edits and given them a final warning, if they vandalise the article again, let me know or report to WP:AIV and they will be blocked from editing.

The Helpful One 22:32, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Warning vandals

Thanks for the notice. I assume Huggle didn't issue another warning because the vandalism had taken place before J.delanoy's warning. Gail (talk) 17:02, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you; however, I believe that Huggle is programmed that way because of the policy on vandal warnings. If the IP vandalizes again, we can issue a level 4 warning immediately. Gail (talk) 17:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't think that anything can be done about it except keep an eye on the IP in case of more vandalism. And they appear to have stopped now. Gail (talk) 17:18, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Your talkpage

Hey, considered archiving it? It is very long, which can make it rather difficult to load and navigate. If you want any help with setting up an archive give me a poke. Ironholds (talk) 18:06, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Try Help:Archiving a talk page. Ironholds (talk) 18:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Moon rock note

[1] [2] [1][3] Kloc, Joe (February 19, 2012). The Case of the Missing Moon Rocks. The Atavist/Amazon Digital Services, Inc. p. 47. ASIN B007BGZNZ8. 

Note re vandalism

Your recent edit to * * * was not constructive and have been reverted. If you want to experiment or make a test edit, please use the sandbox. These pages are patrolled by robots and human editors like me. When you make an edit please leave an accurate edit summary, and not a misleading one. Further vandalism will get you blocked from editing. Administrators can block you without further warning.

I think you reverted all the vandalism there was. The IP's only other edits today were to the Tuskegee Airmen article, which the IP itself removed. Is there more I'm missing? Gail (talk) 19:57, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

They already have something to that effect posted after several of the warnings: "If this is a shared IP address, and you didn't make any unconstructive edits, consider creating an account for yourself so you can avoid further irrelevant warnings." If I may offer you some friendly advice, don't take it so personally against vandals. Just revert, warn, and move on. Also consider applying for rollback, since it makes reversion of vandalism much easier. Gail (talk) 20:23, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Don't worry, I've experienced that too :) Just apply at Wikipedia:Requests for permissions/Rollback and wait for an admin to approve. Gail (talk) 20:39, 23 February 2009 (UTC)


I have 1 granted rollback rights to your account; the reason for this is that after a review of some of your contributions, I believe I can trust you to use rollback correctly by using it for its intended usage of reverting vandalism, and that you will not abuse it by reverting good-faith edits or to revert-war. For information on rollback, see Wikipedia:New admin school/Rollback and Wikipedia:Rollback feature. If you do not want rollback, just let me know, and I'll remove it. Good luck and thanks. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:05, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome. Good luck with the new tool. :) –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)


I reported the IP vandal to WP:AIV. You could too. Best regards, DurovaCharge! 21:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Mackinaw City

Hi, there, and thanks for your kind words. I'm not sure what your question refers to; are you asking about Mackinaw Street? I'm a native Saginoid, and this is one of those things that one "just learns", like the pavement being hard or the river being poison. If that is indeed your question, I've been hunting down a better source for this, but the best things I have for now are Lt. Poole's map itself and a narration of his journey from the Chippewa Nature Center in Midland. The map shows the survey as beginning just south of what is now Old Town Saginaw, and if I'm reading the map correctly, the bend in the road in front of Arthur Hill H.S. is in the correct spot on the map. I'm going to poke through the Chippewa NC's list of sources and see what more I can dredge up over the next few days. Cheers. LibertyHiller (talk) 02:24, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for encouraging LibertyHiller to find a source for her interesting information about Mackinaw City. Happy St. Patrick's Day! Bigturtle (talk) 18:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


IPs change regularly, so we generally consider warnings/edits more than a few days old to be invalid. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:28, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I see. YesY Given final warning, will block if vandalism continues. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

RE: User

Without getting too beansy, applying long blocks to highly-shared IP addresses is generally a waste of everyone's time. In this case, the IP in question is part of the dynamic pool of addresses that one of the biggest ISPs uses in the 35th largest metro area in the country. Since our hate speech spouting racist automatically gets assigned a new address every few days (or can force a re-assignment in about 20 seconds if he or she knows what they are doing), a long block would be rendered pointless. From past experience, I feel that situations like this are best handled via WP:RBI, which will hopefully cause our "friend" to get bored and move on. If not, and this person decides to be persistent, the only thing that can be done is a range block (which probably will not happen since there are more than 975,000 addresses in this range), or page protection. Hope this helps explain the reasons behind my block. Please feel free to drop me a note if you have any other questions or issues. Thanks, Kralizec! (talk) 22:01, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

RE: Little Sable Point Light

I just fine tuned the picture. I moved it underneath the old black and white in the external links section.

Smedpull (talk) 04:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


Not vandalism on the Smedpull page. Just decided to edit on wikipedia as Chingadiculous from now on. Hopefully I can still edit lighthouse pages and other Michigan pages with the same diligence as before.

Chingadiculous (talk) 14:56, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
FWIW, I had your back, and it was out of the ordinary. Glad that it wasn't vandalism. Happy editing in your new nom de plume. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:48, 12 March 2009 (UTC) Stan

RE: Flipism

Hi there,

Happy St Patrick's Day to you too! I have ran the script through it to fix errors, I didn't realise that there was a term for this philosophy! Perhaps you'd like to find an image of a coin being flipped - if that will benefit the article?

The Helpful One 18:39, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Happy St. Paddy's!

Beannachtaí na Féile Pádraig!

Toasting you with a Smithwick's and best wishes...

Sláinte! ☻...⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:08, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Your AIV report of

Hi. Looking at that IP's contributions it seems that they haven't edited for nearly a month. Even allowing for the fact that they were blocked for two weeks from 24 Feb (so to 10 March) they still haven't edited since then. Did you report the correct IP? Tonywalton Talk 12:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Geocoding large areas

Regarding your problems in geocoding large areas: we have a proposed solution in the pipeline for this. When implemented, you will be able to add a dim: parameter to the coordinate's region and type tag, giving a dimension (roughly, a diameter) in meters or kilometers. So a house might have dim:20m, and a large conurbation dim:50km. It isn't implemented yet, but we hope to roll it out soon. -- The Anome (talk) 00:57, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Happy April Fools' Day

thumb|200px|left|Ain't I a stinker? Aww was fun while it lasted. ;)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 21:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Cute. Very cute. I'll bear this in mind for future tomfoolery. It made me smile. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:01, 1 April 2009 (UTC) Stan
Almost would probably appreciate WP:WIKILEGAL.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 22:28, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I loved the citation. I also loved cartoon. No chance that we could get a similar one for Flipism is there? 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:31, 1 April 2009 (UTC) Stan
Guten Morgen, I haven't found a cartoon for Flipism yet although I've scouted for some. The subject reminds me of the Magic 8 Ball and, strangely, an episode of Gomer Pyle where he makes decisions by smacking his two fingers on a table and decides to go with whichever one hurts the most! I don't remember it very well though. I'll keep looking...
The boys in green did what I wanted them to do last night....very happy with both outcomes. Looking forward to Monday night. Enjoy your day..
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 13:55, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Berean, Nice to hear from you. Obviously, it's pretty neat to have MSU in the finals. I'll have to have an MSU Dairy Store vanilla ice cream to celebrate (I bought some the last time I was in East Lansing). The flipism article I think is fun. The whole notion of irrationality in internal politics (reference in the articles) is fascinating. I heard George Schultz, Reagan's secretary of labor, talk about the importance of the PATCO firings, which convinced all of the world leaders that there was nothing that Reagan wouldn't do. The air traffic controllers were viewed as irreplaceable -- and they actually were for a very long time. But that did not make them untouchable. Enjoy the game. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:34, 5 April 2009 (UTC) Stan

Reading notes

Do be honest I don't think "Reading notes" exist, it's just the only solution I could think of there. Either way, good luck on improving the article, it's always nice to see someone working on something! Sillyfolkboy (talk) 20:33, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

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Hello, 7&6=thirteen. You have new messages at Sillyfolkboy's talk page.
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Unreferenced list

7&6, what I did was in compliance with WP:BLP - Normally I tag unreferenced sections, but because that section was involving living people, it is preferable to delete the section and wait until the content is re-added with appropriate references. The problem with unreferenced lists of people is that we don't know whether the entries are truthful and accurate and whether some anon contributors are playing jokes. We can't risk having BLP issues.

I remove large lists of unreferenced people when I see them. You may want to look at this: Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons/Archive_21#Folks.2C_we_urgently_need_a_rule_for_.22Notable_people.22_lists_in_cities.27_articles.21

Here's what to do - Look through the list that I removed and go on and look for references that cite the people as being from Hamtramck. Then when you find each person, add him back to the list with the reference cited.

As for why I tend to blanket remove the lists, it's because it solves the BLP problem in the least amount of time; it takes awhile to go through the news pages to finds for people. Frankly I would appreciate it if people who create the lists take the time to reference them. As WP:V says "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material." WhisperToMe (talk) 15:22, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Alrighty, then. I may see if I can help check if entries are legitimate too. Thank you very much :) WhisperToMe (talk) 16:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


I think Caldorwards4 is reverting your edits to Caldor because one of them is a blog, and blogs generally shouldn't be linked to. The Funding Universe link looks like it's useful, but I'd suggest maybe putting it as an inline citation instead of an external link. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Many ottersOne hammerHELP) 00:11, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Happy cinco indeed

I know because mostly Rob and I just finushed off a good chunk of a bottle of tequila. Life is good, today, we'll see about tomorrow. And you? Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 02:54, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Sturgeon Point Light

Please check this article that you helped create. It has a formatting problem that I don't know how to fix. Thank you. --Wpwatchdog (talk) 13:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

When I view the article, it is all white space on the left side of the lighthouse info box from its top to bottom. The text starts at the bottom of the info box instead of adjacent to it. I am not seeing this problem with other articles but do you think it is a problem from my end?--Wpwatchdog (talk) 16:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
to the left of the info box is the 'table of contents' box. There is a white space twixt them. It looks normal to me. Sorry to be nonhelpful, but I can't correct what I can't see. I even tried doing this in different sized fonts, and was unable to reproduce it. I am going on the road, so don't look for any immediate reply. Happy editing 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Stan
I am using a hotel computer. I am viewing it precisely the way you describe it. Maybe it has something twith the computer settings. It isn't (IMHO) an inherent problem in the article, as it doesn't display that way on my portable or desktop. Maybe somebody else can take a look and come up with suggestions. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC) Stan
I've seen that problem before ... I'm guessing that all browsers showing that problem are IE-6, as that's where I usually see that issue mentioned; while the ones not showing that problem are either IE-7, IE-8, FireFox, or one of the many other ones available. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 17:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I've tweaked the formatting by removing an extra blank line ... it should (hopefully) fix the issue in IE-6, while not having any noticeable effect on the formatting in newer browsers. Can you check it to verify? --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 17:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Barek, you are a genius. It's fixed on this computer's display! Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:06, 29 May 2009 (UTC) Stan

Michigamua and Frank Murphy

If you think Michigamua is relevant with respect to Frank Murphy, by all means, feel free to revert my edit; I won't oppose. You certainly sound much more familiar with Mr. Murphy than I am. I just don't think the group is generally notable and removed mentions of it from a few Michigan alumni. TheMile (talk) 15:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Did you look at Michigamua? Some very important aliumnii. Very small group. I'll revert. Thanks for the permission to revert and your understnding. Actually, I'll just "undo" since what you did was a "good faith edit" that reasonable editors could disagree on. Happy editing, and keep up the good work. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC) Stan


If you are referring to the repetition of the photo info, it was easy to catch: I was responsible for almost all the information in the Personality and conflicts section, and spent some time looking for appropriate citations; so I knew it was already there somewhere. Best regards, Magidin (talk) 17:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Ah; yeah, I saw you were playing with the wording. The grammar error was just because you corrected part of the sentence and the new version did not match well with the second part. Having written many papers myself, I am quite familiar with the phenomenon (-; Magidin (talk) 18:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Please, stop trying to explain the error! There is no apology or explanation necessary for (the very minor) slip. As I said, I am intimately familiar with how that kind of error can slip into one's writing (and rewriting, and paraphrasing, and editing, and all sorts). I'm glad I could help, that's all. Magidin (talk) 19:49, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

McGulpin Point Light

As you may have heard, the McGulpin Point Light near Mackinaw City was ceremonially re-lit 1 1/2 weeks ago. Good news for celebrants of Great Lakes beacons! Bigturtle (talk) 15:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Stannard Rock Light

Thank you for taking the article further along and adding all the great references. I am still learning. What is your source that the shape of the tower is a frustrum of a cone?--Wpwatchdog (talk) 00:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Wow! Thank you for all of the resources. I am interested in the Ile Parisienne Light which is in my backyard. I spent several hours researching on the internet and found a few good sources (eg. Lighthouse Digest and Rowlett's website) but it doesn't look like there is much online information so I am hoping I can find more from the resources you listed.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 21:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Boat Nerd has a little item about the Ile Parisienne Light but Terry Pepper doesn't have anything. I will ask him if he has any information or suggestions. As you saw, Ile Parisienne is a special place. See Ile Parisienne Conservation Reserve. Thank you for your help. I will keep looking.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 20:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Thank you so much for the address. I will contact Terry today.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 15:34, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
I just checked out Oleszewski's "Lighthouse Adventures: Heroes, haunts, & havoc on the Great Lakes" from the local library. He has an outstanding chapter on the Stannard Rock Light that I can use to expand that article. I will check his "Great Lakes Lighthouses American & Canadian" for info on the Ile Parisienne Light.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 15:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
I did find those web pages. It would be ideal if some nature conservancy or preservation group bought the private acreage on the island. It has been on the market for several years now.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 15:56, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for the additional links. I heard back from Terry Pepper and he said that Canadian lights are not his specialty. I will try contacting Canadians sources.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 16:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I intended to do an article on the Ile Parisienne light and thus started researching. I don't have a photo that I can use as yet and I would like to find more on the light's construction but I can start the article and maybe another editor will happen along with more information. I will start working on it in the next few days.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 17:37, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


Hey, you can't leave!  :-) Those footnotes need a lot of work, and you're just the person to help out. You're drafted! Don't go AWOL.  :-)Ferrylodge (talk) 20:41, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for coming back and helping with the footnotes. They look much better now. Cheers.Ferrylodge (talk) 17:28, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

North American Game Warden Museum


This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a web search with the contents of North American Game Warden Museum, and it appears to include a substantial copy of For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. See our copyright policy for further details.

This message was placed automatically, and it is possible that the bot is confused and found similarity where none actually exists. If that is the case, you can remove the tag from the article and it would be appreciated if you could drop a note on the maintainer's talk page. CorenSearchBot (talk) 21:20, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Note that I have removed North American Game Warden Museum from the environmentalism article since it was not approp. It could possibly be placed in the Environment of the United States article. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 20:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Conservation in the United States

You may be interested in Conservation in the United States. I have just discovered that such an article does not exist and have made a well overdue start on it. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 20:46, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Sand point

Hi there --I looked at the discussion page before I did anything and it didn't seem there was a majr discussion over the issue. The confusion over names caused the light house to be unmentioned in the actual Escanaba article, or even link correctly to the NRHP list article for Delta County. I also fixed the light house template, but it sometimes takes a while for the server to update "what links here". The name is based off the NRHP sign at the lighthouse. It might not be 100% perfect, but we can always add names to the first sentence (e.g. "(also known as _____ and _____). --Bobak (talk) 17:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Mich Light template

Am I on the right track here? I need someone to make sure that I have them sorted properly.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 18:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Pointe aux Barques Light

Hi, I was just looking over the Pointe aux Barques Light article to catch cross-references that might be useful for a short piece just written on the Thumb Area Bottomland Preserve, and saw that the lighthouse article had been carefully written with many significant facts and details. Upon looking over the lighthouse's article history I was not surprised to find the usual suspects. Bigturtle (talk) 02:10, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


Sloppy, Thirteen. If a ref is broken, tag it or fix it; don't just delete the corresponding article content. I'm talking about the NYT Patterson piece. RafaelRGarcia (talk) 15:09, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Massachusetts template for lighthouses

Yes, you're absolutely right. There's a pretty exhaustive list at List of lighthouses in the United States#Massachusetts which is derived from I've just finished (are we ever done?) adding stubs for several on that list that I thought were "important", but I think maybe only one or two more in Massachusetts deserve articles.

The Mass template is deliberately only those for which articles exist -- no redlinks. Maybe that's a mistake -- it duplicates "Category: Massachusetts Lighthouses" -- but I don't think so -- the template is a fast way to get between existing articles.Jameslwoodward (talk) 15:53, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

You can add redlinks to the template if you wish. I simply used those lighthouses in the category at the time as a means of getting a template rolled out but it isn't meant to be restrictive...and yes, the quicker navigation between articles was my goal. Glad to know that others are getting the benefits that I had hoped they would. 8^D
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


Thanks for the comments. It's always nice to know someone's paying attention. I used the current template, but left off the ARLHS number field on all and the USCG field where the light was discontinued. This in part because of a problem I have raised at the talk page for the template.

I have uploaded all of the USCG pix that I think are "good" in some sense. As for doing more, I'm inclined to hope that having the stub done will encourage others to fill in the details. I created my first new article (Bishop and Clerks Light) ten days ago and, as a newbie editor, I have to say that creating a new article complete with templates and refs is a little intimidating. It's a lot easier to just fill in facts. Tenants Harbor Light is a perfect example of what I hope will happen to all of them, except that you're not a newbie editor and wouldn't have been intimidated by creating it.

Ser Amantio di Nicolao has asked me to help him stub out the Canadian Maritimes, so that's probably next. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jameslwoodward (talkcontribs) 11:42, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

responded on hartwick pines state park talk page

dm (talk) 02:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

BTW: Using WP:Rollback privs on a user (who isn't banned) is usually frowned upon as it suggests a lack of AGF. I'm not really offended, but others might be. FWIW dm (talk) 03:59, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I should stress, I'm not offended :) Cheers. dm (talk) 12:28, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Pewabic pottery

You are correct. Missed that line in the WP article. I looked at the web site last night and saw what looked like galleries more than museum (as you probably know, the terms are sometimes used incorrectly). I've sectioned off the museum line in the article and put the cats back in. Thanks for catching that. dm (talk) 12:43, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Help on Thumb Radio

Hey, cgord here, I could really use your help on one of my articles- Thumb Radio. It's a page about the stations in and around the thumb and it has been nominated for speedy deletion. I don't understand why, but you probably know more about this than I do. Please check it out, and let me know if it is worth saving. Best Regards Cgord (talk) 17:02, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, I am a WP:Inclusionist. I think the article is worth saving. It could use more content. I suggest you take a look at the edit histories for each of the stations, and write to those editors like I did at User talk:JPG-GR. It would also be worth looking at similar type articles and seeing the content they might have. I know that lists are 'frowned on', but sometimes this is the best way to put together information that cannot be otherwise meaningfully expostulated. It would also help if there were some citations in the article, I suppose. I will put in my word, but I obviously have no drag around these parts. Thanks for calling this to my attention. Hope that helps. Keep up the good work. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:19, 20 August 2009 (UTC) Stan
cgord, when your writ to people, you should give them this link and the wiki link to Thumb Radio. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:28, 20 August 2009 (UTC) Stan
  • I nominated the article for deletion, so let me give you a little background on why I did. The "market" area is already covered by a market template and the entire state is covered by the standard list. This page is one of a kind, no other area has one and shouldn't with the other sources available. I consulted with User:JPG-GR on this before nominating and he said that he thought it should go as well. So, hopefully that gives you a little background on the reasons I nominated it for deletion. - NeutralHomerTalk • 17:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I received a note form Neutral Homer on my talk page. This was my further amplification and reply.
I know a lot about The Thumb, but I know nothing about Wikipedia's organizational structure for its articles. I am certainly not suggesting that you have been arbitrary. This is a unique geographic and ethnographic area in many ways. Because of its location (being surrounded by Lake Huron and Saginaw Bay on three sides, it is surprisingly isolated. I work up there from time to time, and am familiar with the place and its population. I am just suggesting that if the article can't be justified or brought up to speed in a month or so, then maybe it should be deleted. But if there is a justification for its existence, I think it is better to give Cgors a chance to justify its existence. There is time to delete this later, if in the clear light of dawn that is required. It's harder to create these articles than it is to delete them. Deletion is (more or less) forever. I hope that explains where I'm coming from. Best regards. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:58, 20 August 2009 (UTC) Stan

Thanks so much, I will get right on it. I think this article has many possibilities, which is why I created it. Hopefully I will get other contributers to radio stations in the thumb to pitch in. Remember what the thumb page looked like a couple years ago? Well, Thumb Radio may have the same outcome. If it works in the Thumb, we could make similar pages for other radio regions as well. Again, thank you for backing me up. I'll be glad to do the same next time you need some help. Cgord (talk) 19:06, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not making friends, but I hope that they understand this is a unique and isolated area. Trying to sell this to people who are from other parts of the world is somewhat problematical. Indeed, I am not being pro-gun/anti-gun, pro-secessionist/anti-secessionist, etc. But I have worked in those communities (which are not homogenous), and have encountered many colorful characters in my work. Of course, all of this is objectionable, as my observations are not a WP:reliable source, and indeed, I would admit that there are many spectrA of political thought and ideals in the Thumb.
That being said, your research (and those of other editors) and your arguments would have to make the case to not delete the article. My experience tells me that there are WP:deletionists and WP:inclusionists and editors that are somewhere in between. I don't know these editors, and would only be guessing at their predispositions, if any. Nevertheless, that we are talking about deleting this article suggests where certain editors may tend to draw their line. I would guess they will slow down (in my experience) only if they get reasons and a (figurative) public outcry from other editors. This is not just a numbers game, but it that is a fact that has consequence. You have the additional burden that you are trying to create an exception to their perception of how the encyclopedia ought to be organized.
There is also nothing to stop you from presently adding content to this article. Thereby you create 'new facts' justifying the articles existence (kind of like the advice I give to clients who are locked in the midst of a child custody case, but that's a different story). I know your capability and resourcefulness, and I assume that the article will get a fair chance and fair review.
I'm going to be out of town for the next ten day or thereabouts with only limited access to the internet. Best of luck, as I've done all I can from here. I'm trying to clen up my desk, and you got me involved in this. Anyway, I hope this helped. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:27, 20 August 2009 (UTC) Stan

RE: Tenants Harbor Light

Hi there,

I have run my script on this page - I hope this has made some changes to it! Sorry for the delay in replying, I've been having some issues with my computer breaking down etc.

Hope this helps,

The Helpful One 22:45, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

White Shoal Light

OK, on my list of Things To Do. I'm working my way through the Keweenaw right now. Andrew Jameson (talk) 00:16, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Maine Lights

Keeper of the light -- thank you very much. Now, of course, I have to really earn it. Jim Jameslwoodward (talk) 16:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I think effort should be rewarded. God knows, it costs nothing, and gives deserved recognition. Which is not as forthcoming as it should be, particularly as you labor intently and well in Wiki backwaters. Getting all those Maine articles up and on the board was pretty neat. I'm outa here. Probably only intermittent over next ten days. Keep up the good work. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC) Stan

I copied your comment on the Maine Template to its discussion page and replied there. Apologies, BTW, for taking a meat axe to the Tenant's Harbor Further Reading when I installed the templates -- I'll be more careful from now. Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk) 11:26, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Article assessment==

There is more detailed information at WP:ASSESS on article assessment. I've never been involved in GA and FA assessments and don't plan to be - the difference between an en-dash and an em-dash doesn't interest me. I've found that standards have risen in the past couple of years, and what used to be a B-class article two or three years ago wouldn't pass muster with most editors nowadays - B's a lot closer to almost-ready-for GA review. Acroterion (talk) 18:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Seul Choix Light

Stan: Please, please don't try to drag me into Michigan -- there's far more than I should do on the East Coast.....

You've done your usual complete job -- much more so than I usually turn out. I'd suggest, from fast glance

Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talkcontribs) 15:48, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

James, Thanks for the advice. I would not have mentioned this at all, but for your being mentioned in th Wobser article. BTW, the Focal height on western Great Lakes lenses is set forth nicely in the tables at the Terry Pepper website (and there are historical lightlists available on line at the Great Lakes Lightkeepers Association) although (and you would know) it is also on Vol. 7 USCG lightlist. Thanks for the advice. I recognize that there are many projects. Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC) Stan
Jim: Could not find "embed switch." Went there and created this. Put it in the article, but its note exactly right. Suggestions, please? 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:17, 10 September 2009 (UTC) Stan

I'll give it a try. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:06, 10 September 2009 (UTC) Stan

Stan: The Wobser article isn't me...
I make no apology for wanting to stay out of the enormous job you have on the Great Lakes, but I am sorry not to have recognized your request for help with details. My apology. I figured you're such an old hand that you knew all that.
As you'll see, I've gone over Seul Choix Light -- not completely, perhaps.
  • I think I answered your question about the embed switch (which I'll also explain better in the Lighthouse Infobox doc)
  • how to put a photo in the NRHP box. One thing to consider -- I like to put photos in an {{Image gallery}}, even if there's only one in addition to the one at the top, because it makes it easy to add more later. see, for example, Long Island Head Light.
  • Also, I think you could generally make more use of <ref name = xxxx> as it cuts down on duplication in the reflist (see my changes to Pepper, Rowlett, and Wobser).
  • Finally, the NRHP output from Elkman often includes things like "COAST GUARD", which somebody will change to "U.S. Coast Guard", so I usually do that.

Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talkcontribs) 12:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

{{Registered Historic Places}} and{{National Register of Historic Places}} produce the same infobox and they were both there. The former is the old usage, the latter is now preferred, I think. Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talkcontribs) 13:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Take a look at Template:Infobox Lighthouse for me -- you're a good set of eyes that had trouble with embed = yes. Thanks, Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talkcontribs) 14:48, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It's very particular exactly where things go -- see my fixes of the two you tried -- the nrhp infobox is inside the lighthouse infobox and the embed = yes has to be the first thing in it. Also, there was a ref error on Old Mackinac Point Light which I glanced at, but didn't fix.... Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talkcontribs) 17:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Noted. I ifxed the errors in Round Island Light (Michigan). Let me know if that e-mail I sent is accepted by you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:44, 11 September 2009 (UTC) Stan

Rock of Ages Light and locmaps

I've been deleting the locmap from articles I write because I think it makes the infobox inordinately long (particularly coupled with the lighthouse box) and thus visually unappealing (on shorter articles) and less useful because it's overwhelming rather than a short punchy summary. '--Wpwatchdog (talk) 14:23, 31 October 2009 (UTC)'However, my opinion has recently been wavering, in that I can see how the locmap gives geographic information more quickly than an address, and why that would be useful for people not familiar with the geographic area. The upshot is, if you think the article is better served with a locmap, I really don't have any objection. Andrew Jameson (talk) 12:27, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Let me encourage you to leave the locmap in -- I've actually been trying to figure out an easy way to get it in all Lighthouse infoboxes, not just NRHP ones (that's not trivial, because locmap calls a fixed width and the lighthouse box width varies with font size). Although the coordinates in the title bar (add "display=title" to coordinates to get them to show up in the tile bar and on Google and Bing Maps), are enough for users with a certain level of sophistication, the map in the article is an instant locator -- I'm certainly sophisticated, but I find it useful, particularly when I'm looking at one of Stan's lights in Michigan. . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talkcontribs) 15:24, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

John Marshall GAR notification

John Marshall has been nominated for a good article reassessment. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good article quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. Reviewers' concerns are here.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Plum Island

You asked me to edit; I make a lot of changes then find an edit conflict because you've continued to edit.... Grrrrr I can write over your continued edits if you want. . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talkcontribs) 17:10, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Needs proofing

Template:Lighthouses of Wisconsin is ready to be proofed for accuracy. Feel free to add or subtract as necessary. Cheers,
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 14:49, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Won't get to this until tomorrow. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC) Stan


I'd advise you to stop spamming editors regarding that roman catholic justices article. It looks like that other editor merely proposed deletion, and that you objected...which stops that process. Syrthiss (talk) 13:39, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Deleted it under G4, as it is a clearcut effort to circumvent the results of this discussion. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
What was billed as a "list" was in fact a rather awkward hybrid between an actual list and an article on "The Place of Roman Catholic Justices in the U.S. Supreme Court" (the latter being rather full of original research and synthesis). As a list, it was clearly eligible for a G4 as an effort to circumvent the prior decision. If you want to create an actual article on this topic, it would be a (quite possibly valuable) piece of original scholarship, and thus not suitable for Wikipedia. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
User:Thinking of England has come up with an excellent solution, and I believe this can be considered solved. I am sorry we clashed here. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:38, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
I replied to you at User talk:Orangemike
Moved the old version to User:7&6=thirteen/OldListArticle for your convenience. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:51, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

perl -le 'print 7&6'


JAPH commenting that while 7+6 may be 13, 7&6 is 6 (bitwise, that is). -- ToET 15:52, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. This would be outside my expertise, but is good to know. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC) Stan Thanks for the info. This would be outside my expertise, but is good to know. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:57, 21 October 2009 (UTC) Stan

Well, it was more of a joke than useful information. It certainly is appropriate to use "and" for addition -- it is a very common colloquialism. However, in many computer programming languages "&&" represents logical and (acting on truth values) and "&" represents bitwise and (acting on binary values), thus
  7: 0111
  6: 0110
7&6: 0110 = 6
The title of this section is a one-liner attempt at a one-liner. (My mother used to say, "It's a yoke, son," referring to any joke which, requiring explanation, laid an egg.) Cheers. -- ToET 16:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

List of Roman Catholic United States Supreme Court justices

Actually, it's not gone; they didn't delete it - it's now a redirect. Its history still exists: (You can click on your last edit as that was the last one before it became a redirect.) OCNative (talk) 02:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

And the last version, with his last edit, was moved to User:7&6=thirteen/OldListArticle for his convenience. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:02, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Whitefish Point Bird Observatory

Thank you for adding the piping plovers to the article! Wpwatchdog (talk) 14:23, 31 October 2009 (UTC)-

Alpena Light

Hello, I have a point to raise about Alpena Light. According to Terry Pepper's history [15], the 1875 pole light was located 400 feet from the north side of the river entrance and had a visibility of 10 miles; it was not located 10 miles offshore. Can you resolve this discrepancy? Thanks.Bigturtle (talk) 17:46, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your great work, and have a happy Thanksgiving. Bigturtle (talk) 22:11, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Sturgeon Point Light, Old Mackinac Point Light, and a few other Michigan lighthouse articles

Dear Link updater, Help, please. The link to the Mulgrew drawings went bye bye. If you could revive it, it would be very much appreciated by me, and would be helpful. Thanks in advance. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 18:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Text is here pictures maybe lost :/ as i cant find it at google cache now (it stays there for some weeks) please answer here and not at my page , until then =) --Updatehelper (talk) 18:34, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Bummer about the picture. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 18:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC) Stan

William G. Milliken State Park and Harbor

Hello, I've started an article on the City of Detroit's new William G. Milliken State Park and Harbor. This is a short article right now, partly because the park is very small, only 31 acres in size. The state says they have plans to expand this park as more riverfront properties become available and are "remediated." Please make any changes you like. Bigturtle (talk) 01:01, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

thanks for pitching it

at John Marshall. I've not emailed Greg yet, but will. Meanwhile I am taking a stroll through my watchpages before going to work. Life is good. Carptrash (talk) 15:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. You probably don't know it but i grew up in Asia, so . . ............. be careful. Carptrash (talk) 15:34, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

So how about jumping into my Spier and Rohns boat? I really have to leave now and there is plenty yet to mine in Eckert's Michigan and I've not even looked at Ferry yet. ciao. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 16:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Cryptic message on my talk page

The message was "Reversion of multiple entries"--Tomwsulcer (talk) 18:14, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Did you write on my talk page: "In order to do that 'wholesale' you need to be approved to have 'reversion rights'. Not hard to do, but it's somewhat like asking to be an administrator (albeit a whole lot less stringent, I think). It is a very useful way to deal with a single vandal with multiple entries. It also gives you the ability to use tools like Twinkle. Hope that helps. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:33, 12 December 2009 (UTC) Stan"??--Tomwsulcer (talk) 18:14, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Wondering what this was in reference to; was this about my previous discussion perhaps a month back with User:Magidin or regarding the issue with Nina Gray? (this has been resolved satisfactorily by an administrator in my view). I'm not sure what you're referring to. I'm somewhat of a nooB but don't seek to be an administrator. But I guess what you're saying if there are multiple instances of vandalism, that one way is contacting an administrator and reporting it, right?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 18:14, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, thanks, you were answering my question about how to handle multiple vandal entries. Thanks. If I run into this problem I might ask for your assistance, thanks. I use the revert button from time to time but I kind of look at it as a nuisance chore, like being asked to be a policeman temporarily when I don't enjoy policing duties. I appreciate your kind words about my other creations. Generally I think there are few instances of "thank you" on Wikipedia but they're appreciated when they happen, so thank you for your thank you.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 18:39, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
To clarify, if you are a "reverter" you don't need to contact the admin, and YOU can undo multiple edits by one user in a single movement. You have enought edits and street cred that your becoming a reverter should be no problem. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:00, 12 December 2009 (UTC) Stan
rollback. Stan

thanks for pitching in

at Nancy Atherton. I need to look at how you got the isbn number to link like that. Among things. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 22:27, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm at the library and I use wikipedia a lot, looking up authors and book series and stuff like that and when I could not find her I figured I just start something - not suspecting that a BOT would come zooming along and accuse me of plagiarism when all I did was copy stuff from the book in hand. Oh well, I'm sure that this is a good thing. Carptrash (talk) 23:16, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
The bot even has a point. Copyrights are broad, and anything is copyrightable (pretty much). But putting titles in is "fair use" and you can't paraphrase the titles. If you put in each ISBN, a comment after each book with a reference, and maybe some opening and concluding verbiag3e with references, then plainly you are NOT plagiarizing. I put in the numbers to break up the syntax. References and wiki links e.g., fiction mystery novel, author and novel, will do that, too. I've given thought (and action) to the bot problem before. Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:39, 27 December 2009 (UTC) Stan

Copyrights are an interesting and sometimes confusing arena, but I am confident that copying the list of titles that an author produced is no violation. More immediate to me are the images at Parthenon (Nashville) which I know (or strongly suspect) to be violations, but I am not inclined to make a big deal about, other than pointing it out on the discussion page. Life, Law, and where the two intersect. Not a spot I choose to dwell at. Carptrash (talk) 02:08, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I was not familiar with the LibraryThing, but am likely to get more so. I have a lot of books [[16]] and this might be something for me. Thanks. Carptrash (talk) 17:22, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Neat resource. We need an infoxbox for this page (see,e.g., George Orwell). But it will take some digging to get details on her life. I saw a line that she was born in Chicago, Illinois and that at one time she lived in Oak Park, Illinois. Her own biography says she lives in Boulder, is not English, and not much else of substance. Anyway, I figure I've gotten the bot off your butt, so you can develop this in the normal course. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:27, 27 December 2009 (UTC) Stan

When someone (for example) donates the library (Embudo Valley Library) a book by an author and it is part of a series, I need to figure out where in the series it is for purposes of cateloguing it. I've found wikipedia to be a great source in that sort of info, but the flip side is when there is nothing there, I feel obligated to get something going. Which, after surviving a near miss with a bot, we have done. So my first "Cheers" when I get home today will be raised to you. Carptrash (talk) 17:56, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I have the same feeling. If it helps me when I research, I like to give back. Karma; Endless knot; Ouroboros. So t speak. I have a wonderful Imperial Russian Ale I got from the Michigan Brewing Company in Webberville, Michigan, which I will share with others in your honor. BTW, I was given a wine aereator (by the original makers of "The Rabbit" cork screw) and it does great things for wine. Its pricey, but I recommend it highly if you are an oenophile. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 18:13, 27 December 2009 (UTC) Stan

To me there are two kinds of wine, those that are open and those that are closed. Dixon however, is the home to acres of vineyards and several places that make the stuff. Good stuff, from my POV. Carptrash (talk) 19:00, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
At the Library thing on Nancy Atherton, they list 19 books, four more than we have. You might want to make an addition. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:09, 27 December 2009 (UTC) Stan

45th Parallel

Thanks, Stan, for the suggestion. Guess I missed it on the list of North American cities. Am familiar with Gaylord, Mich., as used to drive N on I-75 often several years ago and always remembered that sign. Happy end to 2009 and start of 2010. --MichMike (talk) 14:02, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

As you saw, I added the other signs and locations. Take a look at the articles -- I had put in references with links to the photographs. Being near the 45th Parallel has real consequence. Try being up there in the winter -- the sun doesn't get above the tree line, and you are in perpetual darkness. This is much more pronounced there, even compared to Detroit, which is 200 miles to the south. I also thought it important to include Menominee, as we do not want to be "Trollish" and forget about the Yooper, which is part of the state last I heard. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:26, 30 December 2009 (UTC) Stan
Thanks again Stan, will take care of my User Page. And, agree about the UP v LP note. Have never been toward western UP but have been out eastern part (as far as the Village of Detour). Guess I do have a bit of a LP bias that needs corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MichMike (talkcontribs) 14:36, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Bessemer, Michigan, Ironwood, Michigan and Hurley, Wisconsin are very neat. The Keweenaw Peninsula and Copper Island are remarkable. and the south end Menominee, Michigan and Escanaba, Michigan are grand. I also like Marquette, Michigan and Hougton, Michigan]]. Worth the trip if you can find the time. Dont' mean to lecutre, but I've been all over this territory, and it is unique. Also, take a look at the Northern Michigan and The Thumb articles. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC) Stan

Grand Island Harbor Rear Range Light

I know you've pitched in before on these. I just created an article for the Grand Island Harbor Rear Range Light, if you'd like to mess aout with it. Andrew Jameson (talk) 17:59, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Great Lakes Circle Tours categories

The categories are for the highways and bridges that carry the tours, not the regions/states where they run. Feel free to add any highways outside of Michigan I might have missed. Imzadi1979 (talk) 19:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

OK. Apparently the fact that this is a "Great Lakes Tour" is of no moment. It's not my classification -- I was not a party to its deliberation or birthing process == so I have no preference one way or the other. I don't have a dog in this fight. Thanks for the explanation. If I come up with anything within your rules, I'll add it. Otherwise, the classification is dead to me. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:50, 9 January 2010 (UTC) Stan

Pow-Wow Club

Perhaps Learned Hand's membership in Pow-Wow belongs in his entry. I don't see it there. It hardly seems relevant to that of Brandeis, since they were not contemporaries in the Club. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 20:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

fyi, i saw it in the Hand article -- I was doing a wiki search for the Pow-Wow Club, and it turned up. I don't care one way or the other. Happy editing. Do as you will. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:27, 14 January 2010 (UTC) Stan

Find a Grave links

I was under the impression that Find a Grave links can't meet WP:RS because the information is contributed by users. I moved the link on Potter Palmer accordingly. Although it's trivial in this case, I figured that might help in the future. Recognizance (talk) 01:24, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I spent the afternoon

at KLDK standing on the roof aiming the ariel at another one on top of a mountain a mile or two away. In between tweakings I was in the station and found your nod to the three hares. Now that I am home I', going to look through my archives and see if I can discover anything about this intriguing emblem. Thanks. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 04:29, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Original research rocks. Carptrash (talk) 19:02, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I first discovered Escher while in Washington D.C. for an anti-wr rally in 1969 or so. The felow I went with detoured us into the basement of some museum where there was an Escher exhibit happening and I've been hooked ever since. I have a book or two at home (I'm at the library now) and will see wwhat/if I can come up with. I think that you are on to something here and let's go there. Carptrash (talk) 19:46, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

PS Did I send you this?

Three hares

I was interested to see that you had added a link to this under See also in the Chester Cathedral article. There is no reference to this in the text of the article and it was only with some searching that I discovered any relevant reference until I came across this. Do you think that something should be said about it in the body of the article? Peter I. Vardy (talk) 20:52, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


Hi. :) Awadewit asked me if I might weigh in on this question, since I do a lot of work with handling non-free sources. Thank you for paraphrasing the lengthy quotation in that article. Looking at the use of material in just one source, I do see a couple of points I wanted to address.

First, in accordance with non-free content, quotations need to be used for good reason, with full attribution. I see this quotation:

"Although he remained on the Court for only six years, Curtis is generally considered to have been the only outstanding justice on the Taney Court in its later years, other than Taney himself."[17]

It is cited, but it is not attributed inline, and there doesn't seem to be any reason for the quote as it is currently used. Under current guidelines, we need to use quotations for defensible fair use reasons. One common use is to attribute a point of view. For instance, the article might say:

According to PBS, in spite of Curtis' short tenure he "is generally considered to have been the only outstanding justice on the Taney Court in its later years, other than Taney himself."[18]

Looking at that source, I see some close following as well. Take, for example, this from that source:

He acted as chief counsel for Andrew Johnson at the president's impeachment trial in 1868 and was able to persuade the Senate that an impeachment was a judicial, not political, act and that it required a full hearing of evidence. The precedent he set has influenced every subsequent impeachment.

The article says (citations omitted)

In 1868, he acted as chief counsel for President Andrew Johnson during the impeachment trial.... He successfully persuaded the Senate that an impeachment was a judicial act, not a political act, so that it required a full hearing of evidence. This precedent "influenced every subsequent impeachment."

Looking at the middle here, it may be easiest to see the issue (though, note, there is another unattributed if cited quote from the following sentence):

persuade the Senate that an impeachment was a judicial, not political, act and that it required a full hearing of evidence. (article)
persuaded the Senate that an impeachment was a judicial act, not a political act, so that it required a full hearing of evidence. (source)

While facts are not copyrightable, creative elements of presentation - including both structure and language - are. This passage particularly follows closely on both.

The essay Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing contains some suggestions for rewriting that may help avoid these issues. The article Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2009-04-13/Dispatches, while about plagiarism rather than copyright concerns, also contains some suggestions for reusing material from sources that may be helpful, beginning under "Avoiding plagiarism".

I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that this rises to the level of a copyright problem. I think the multiplicity of sources as well as the alterations that have been made probably comfortably clear the "substantial similarity" threshold. I do think that this passage especially should be revised, though, and I would suggest you keep an eye out for close following of this sort and that previously raised in future contributions. It can be a real pain to rewrite content completely (I wind up having to think about that a lot in my routine Wikipedia volunteering), but it's the best way to avoid inadvertently running afoul of policies.

Please let me know if I can express any of this better. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 16:00, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Dear Moonriddengirl,
Duly noted. BTW, you could have just rewritten the article without the hectoring. Of course, I WP:AGF. If you looked at my contributions, you would perhaps reconsider the implicit accusations. Thank you and Happy editing. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:26, 3 April 2010 (UTC) Stan
I am glad to hear you are assuming good faith. I, too, am assuming good faith: that your interest in contributing to the project includes knowing if others have concerns that you are not summarizing your sources in a manner consistent with our guidelines and policies on plagiarism and non-free content. I don't by any means intend to suggest that there are any intentional issues.
I could have rewritten the problems myself, but I would imagine you contribute to more articles than this and would like to help you avoid inadvertent problems as you go forward. Beyond this source, as you know, problems were already detected with this passage in the same article:

Three years later, he was elected to the Massachusetts State Legislature. He was appointed chairman of a committee charged with the reform of state judicial procedures, and within two years presented the Massachusetts Practice Act of 1851.

which was much too close a paraphrase of the following source:

He was elected to the Massachusetts State Legislature in 1849, where he was appointed chairman of a committee charged with the reform of state judicial procedures. Two years later, Curtis presented the Massachusetts Practice Act of 1851.

These are at least two passages closely paraphrased from the same article, which would seem to me to warrant alerting you to the concern and asking you to keep an eye out for it as you go forward.
That said, I'd be grateful if you could point out to me what is "hectoring" in my note, as it was not my intention to hector you and I would like to be sure that I don't inadvertently intimidate or bully others. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:30, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
OK. I will take your criticism in the spirit in which it was meant. Seriously though, you could make the changes and lead by example. What could it hurt? Sometimes less is more, if you know what I mean. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:37, 3 April 2010 (UTC) Stan
Thanks. It wouldn't hurt anything, but it also might not help. :) I do a lot of work in this area (far more than I like to think about), and it takes considerably less time to just rewrite content, but I would hope by taking the time to explain my concerns I might be able to help avoid problems down the line, in the same way that people who work a lot in Wikipedia areas I do not can help me avoid problems of my own. We bring a lot of different strengths. If you want help rewriting the content, I'll be glad to pitch in, having discussed the matter. As I said, I have to think a lot about rewriting content in my daily admin work, most of which is spent at WP:CP and WP:CCI. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:44, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Inland lighthouse help?

I've noticed that {{Lighthouses of Ohio}} is missing an inland lighthouse, which is NRHP-listed as "Grand Lake St. Marys Lighthouse". Is this within your area of interest, or are you concerned pretty much with just New England lighthouses? See National Register of Historic Places listings in Mercer County, Ohio and Grand Lake St. Marys if you want more information, or leave me a note at my talk. I live within relatively easy driving distance of this site, so I'm hoping to be able to photograph it sometime this spring. Nyttend (talk) 03:39, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the information. You can find a little information in the first paragraph of this page; from what I gather, it was perhaps privately operated when in use. I'll try to get over there when possible. Nyttend (talk) 12:59, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
FYI, Russ Rowlett, Lighthouse Directory, Ohio lighthouses has information on three lighthouses on the lake, but nothing of that name. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:13, 15 March 2010 (UTC) Stan
Hey, Stan, it's a whole lot closer to your territory of interest than mine -- why don't you take it on?. . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talkcontribs) 14:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Jim, I'll do it, but which one? See also, D'Entremont, Jeremy. (August, 2002) The Two Lights of Grand Lake St. Marys Lighthouse Digest. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:46, 15 March 2010 (UTC) Stan

Here's your photo. Sorry that it's obscured by trees; it's on private property, and the only ways to view it are (1) from the street, where I took this picture, or (2) by boat, and I don't have access to any boats. Nyttend (talk) 20:24, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll work on this, but probably not until the weekend. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:20, 17 March 2010 (UTC) Stan

Note to self re Lighthouse resources


Barnard, J.G. "Lighthouse Engineering As Displayed at the Centennial Exhibition." American Society of Civil Engineers Transactions 8 (Mar 1879), p. 55.

Harris, Patricia. "Michigan City: Indiana's Only Lighthouse." The Keeper's Log (Spring, 1987), pp. 22-25.

Harrison, Timothy. "Big Sable, The Queen of the Lake." Lighthouse Digest (Jul 1997), pp. 1-3.

"Harsen's Island Saint Clair Flats Range Light Station Under New Ownership." Lighthouse Digest (Mar 2003), pp. 28-29.

Howard-Filler, Saralee R. "Grey's Grief." Michigan History 70, no 5 (1986), pp. 20-23.

Huggins, Michael. "Only Yesterday: History of the Monroe Lighthouses, Monroe, Mich." The Keeper's Log (Spring 2000), pp. 10-15.

"Important New Light Station at Milwaukee, Wis." Lighthouse Service Bulletin III, 50 (Feb 1, 1928), p. 229.

Janda, Louie & Rosie. "End of an Era: Cana Island, Wisconsin." The Keeper’s Log (Winter 1997), pp. 23-

Janda, Louie & Rosie. "End of an Era: Cana Island, Wisconsin." The Keeper’s Log (Winter 1997), pp. 23-

"Lightships and Lighthouses. Light-House Construction." Along the Shore I, No. 4 (Jun 1909), p. 17; No. 5 (Jul 1909), p. 17; No. 6 (Aug 1909), p. 17; ". . .Light-Houses on Submarine Stone Foundations." No. 7 (Sep 1909), p. 17.

Lopez, Victor. "This Old Lighthouse: Chicago Harbor Beacon Gets a Facelift." Coast Guard (Sep 1997), pp. 24-25.

Lynn, Bruce. "A Light is on in the Graveyard [Whitefish Point]." Lighthouse Digest (Aug 1997), pp. 1-3.

Merkel, Jim. "Big Sable Point." Lighthouse Digest (Sep 2000), pp. 16-17.

________. "Michigan Island: The Mistake that Became a Treasure." Lighthouse Digest (Mar 1999), pp. 21-24.

________. "Long Island [Wisconsin]: The Overlooked Lighthouse of the Apostles." Lighthouse Digest (Mar 2000), pp. 19-21.

Mulholland, Ray. "Light Stations on Great Lakes Closed During Winter Season." Coast Guard Magazine (Mar 1950), pp. 16-19.

Murphy, L.A. "Investigation of Foundation Stability at White Shoal Light Station, Lake Michigan." Coast Guard Engineers Digest No. 96 (Jan-Feb, 1956), pp. 34-38.

Nelson, Bruce A. "The History of Big Point Sable Light Station." Great Lakes Lighthouse Keepers Association The Beacon 18, No. 4 (Winter 2000/01), pp. 14-15.

"Resident Memories--Of Schooners, Steamers, and Storms [George Keller, Keeper of White Shoal Lighthouse]." Lighthouse Digest (Apr 2000), pp. 4-5.

"Round Island Passage Light Station." Proceedings of the Merchant Marine Council 5 (Sep 1948), p. 145.

"Round Island Passage Light Station Established." Coast Guard Engineers Digest No. 51 (Jul-Aug, 1948), pp. 28-29; No. 52 (Sep-Oct 1948), pp. 10-12.

Smith, S01cott T., ed. "The Lighthouses of Illinois." The Keeper’s Log (Spring 1994), pp. 13-19.

Timm, Richard. "Sands Point Lighthouse." The Keeper’s Log (Fall 1989), pp. 14-15.

"A Tour of the Lights of the Straits." Michigan History 70 (Sep/Oct 1986), pp. 17-29.

"Unwatched Light with Stand-By at Isle Royal Light Station, Mich." Lighthouse Service Bulletin III, 62 (Feb 1, 1929), pp. 276-277.

"Winter Lights, Great Lakes." Lighthouse Service Bulletin I, 35 (Nov 1914), p. 137.

Grant, John. Legendary Lighthouses: The Companion to the PBS Television Series. Old Saybrook, CT: Globe Pequot Press, 1998.

Hall, Stephen P. Split Rock: Epoch of a Lighthouse. St. Paul: Minnesota Historical Society, 1978.

Holden, Thom. Above and Below: Lighthouses and Shipwrecks of Isle Royale. Houghton, MI: Isle Royale Natural History Association, 1985.

McShane, Myron. The Presqu’ile Lighthouse: Its History and Its Keepers. [?????]

Noble, Dennis L., & T. Michael O'Brien. Sentinels of the Rocks: From "Graveyard Coast" to National Lakeshore. Marquette: Northern Michigan University Press, 1979.

Pletcher, Jean Edith, et al. Memories of the Michigan City Lighthouse. Michigan City: Michigan City Historical Society, 1991.

Vent, Myron H. South Manitou Island. Springfield: The Goodway Press, Inc., 1973.

I'm looking for allies

and you came to mind. I just received this message about a category that I started.

I have nominated Category:Hal Blaine Strikes Again (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. BrownHairedGirl (talk)

I'm hoping that you will glance at this issue and post an opinion there. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 23:20, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

TfDs: Our reference lists

Hello Stan,

Someone is systematically nominating the source lists for lighthouses for deletion. Discussion is here.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 14:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Berean, Thanks for the heads up. This is wrong-headed, and anybody who would help in opposing this would be apprecaied. Obvioiusly, I wouldlike to keep the Lighthouse resources and I replied to all of them like this>
  • Strong Keep These are useful and important lists of sources. There was a lot off work that went into these lists, and they are not miscellaneous lists of books, but are a considered and well researched compendium of resources, including links. For anybody who is seriously researching lighthouses in the United States and the affected areas, this are very useful. For anybody to argue that lists should be deleted without regard to their utility is to disregard the needs of our readers and potential readers. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC) Stan
I agree that the links are very useful, but they also seem to violate WP:EL, so no matter what my opinion is at the discussion, they are most likely going to be deleted. The best advice I can give you comes from WP:EL..."The subject of this guideline is external links that are not citations to sources supporting article content. If the website or page to which you want to link includes information that is not yet a part of the article, consider using it as a source for the article, and citing it. Guidelines for sourcing, which includes external links used as citations, are discussed at Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Citing sources." Asher196 (talk) 01:32, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Lighthouse resources

{{Navbox | name = GLLighthouseSources | title = Great Lakes Lighthouse Resources | state = autocollapse | titlestyle = background:#add8e6; | liststyle = background:transparent; text-align:left; | list1 = Soft redirect to:Wikipedia:LIGHTHOUSES#Resources
This page is a soft redirect.


Original Barnstar.png The Original Barnstar
For improving yet another article! Its editors like you who are the backbone of our project. Keep up the good work! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 16:51, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


While I do not have much knowledge about lighthouses or their standing as Wikipedia articles and knowing how difficult it is to write an article with very little general information, I have assessed a few of the articles you've placed for review on Wikiproject Michigan. Jacob S. grafitti 07:03, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Broken link in McReynolds

The new top link to the American National Biography site is broken; there is a clear typo with a D at the end of the URL, but I don't know what it was you meant to link, so I didn't fix it. Also, you might consider using the cite web and cite book. Regards, Magidin (talk) 18:25, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Re: Barber's pole

How's that? — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 19:35, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. My problem wasn't the image itself, it was the weirdness of the link. I didn't see its point/usefulness (so out it went!). Bye. — JohnFromPinckney (talk)

Grand Lake St. Marys Lighthouse

Re your comment on Jim's talk — the lighthouse you want is the Northwood Lighthouse. Nyttend (talk) 01:52, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Here's your photo. Sorry that it's obscured by trees; it's on private property, and the only ways to view it are (1) from the street, where I took this picture, or (2) by boat, and I don't have access to any boats. Nyttend (talk) 20:24, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks! If this light were in any one of many states, you could get its National Register of Historic Places nomination form online; however, all that the Ohio Historical Society can give you is this. Nyttend (talk) 19:36, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Midland, Michigan

We seem to have a disagreement about the Midland County Historical Societies Heritage Park link, so I asked User:Barek to look at it. From my reading of WP:Spam, it's spam. Asher196 (talk) 00:43, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

This is the response from Barek, from his talk page.Asher196 (talk) 01:35, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
At the very least, it's not an appropriate place for an external link. WP:ELPOINTS #2 states that "External links should not normally be used in the body of an article. Instead, include appropriate external links in an "External links" section at the end of the article, and in the appropriate location within an infobox, if applicable."
After looking at the linked site (which appears to be commercial in nature) I would at first consider this an inappropriate link that was likely erroneously added in good faith - although if it gets re-added after explaining the issue to whomever added it, then I would begin to consider it spam. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 00:47, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Asher, I dont' like edit wars. If you and Barek say its bad, I'm not going to contest the issue. My only point is that this is the principal website for these organizations, and I think that makes it proper in one context or another. But as I said, I don't want to get into an edit war with you or Barek, as I know you are both right-minded, even if you might be wrong on a particular issue. I'll leave it up to the two of you to work out -- I'm out of this controvresy. Best to you both. P.S., I would NEVER use REVERT on your edits, as I know they are not vandalism. Using it would be equivalent to using a 12 gauge to kill a flea. At best, it does a lot of damage to the surrounding furniture; at worst, it terrifies (or even kills) the innocent bystanders. So, best regards. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 01:11, 19 March 2010 (UTC) Stan
This was never an edit war, that's why I left the article as-is until the completion of this discussion. I reverted your edits the other day without really realizing it was you that made the edits. I asked for Barek's opinion because he is a member of WP:WikiProject Spam, and I wanted to make sure I was reading the guideline correctly.Asher196 (talk) 03:05, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Benjamin Robbins Curtis

Symbol question.svg Hello! Your submission of Benjamin Robbins Curtis at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 15:48, 31 March 2010 (UTC)


I just got back from the NMLA (New Mexico Library Association) conference and got your message re Louis Sullivan. I checked in and was surprised to note that 2 pictures of mine from 2004 & 06 were still there. welcome on board. My home computer is comatose, perhaps dead so my wikipediaing is minimal. Life goes on. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 20:10, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I hope your computer recovers from its breakdown. It was just a thought, as you are probably among the best equipped to handle such a question. May you prosper and enjoy this beautiful spring. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 20:19, 11 April 2010 (UTC) Stan

Lighthouse resources

Content for 4 of these at:

The other two were deleted before I could save them.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:12, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Everything is at Wikipedia:WikiProject Lighthouses/Resources. Tim Song (talk) 17:59, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

DYK credits for Benjamin Robbins Curtis

Updated DYK query On April 16, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Benjamin Robbins Curtis, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 06:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about the delay

in getting back to you but every now and again "real life" imposes - this time in the form of the Embudo Valley Library director's (aka, "my boss") handing in her resignation, effective July 1. You don't need to know exactly what this means, but you can probably more-or-less guess. Them bunnies look great and I have not discovered anything to add - or subtract. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 16:49, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I wandered over to Wooden synagogues and, after making a quick edit, was reminded that my copy of Krinsky's Synagogues of Europe: Architecture, History, Meaning had gone missing a decade or so ago - so I just tracked down and ordered a used copy. Found a reasonably priced one - and the price went up very quickly after that one. Life is good. Carptrash (talk) 20:21, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Looking for good editors for the DramaOut

Hi Stan,

I'd like to invite you to the The 3rd Great Wikipedia Dramaout. It was originally centered around keeping the drama down but I feel the more important aspect of joining is the sense of accomplishment for the combined efforts of the few determined editors. It is great to watch the log file grow as we create content during the drive. :)

Here is the log for the 1st DramaOut and the 2nd if you would like to see what happens.

I hope you can join us!
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 19:30, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

thanks for pointing out the ladies

Let's play "Name That Bank"!!

I added a reference from a book I had, just sort of, what the heck. I have started entering my library into a website called [19] Librarything and decided to go public after I had 1,000 books entered. I hit that yesterday. That was also the point at which I was going to return to working on Shadowing Parducci, which I did today. I lost a lot of work in my recent computer crash and have decided on a new format. I also resigned up at the Fab Ruins of Detroit and am waiting for approval before posting there. Actually, let me mention my issue to you and see what you make of it. There are on Griswold St, in, I think the 700 block, two Albert Kahn banks (former banks) side-by-side. I have a picture somewhere. I am trying to learn what the 1925 names for them were. I am doing Parducci chronologically and have ground to a halt in year 1. Carptrash (talk) 20:44, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

For your helpful, useful contribution you have been awarded the seldom coveted Thumbs Up Award
For a job well done
Hmmmmm. link didn't work. well here it is for cut-and-paste if you are so inclined.
Einar: Is one of these the Dime Bank? I have (at home not here) a book on historic Detroit or Old Detroit or something like that. I'll get back to you next week. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC) Stan
Einar: I am looking at The Buildings of Detroit, A History by W. Hawkins Ferry. Picture 212 is a plate of the Dime Building by D.H. Burnham, 1910, which is to the North (towards Windsor) of the two buildings you have pictured. Bank two has a large sign on its roof that sayus "Griswold-First State Bank." I don't know if that was applicable on the date in question, but maybe it helps. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:37, 9 July 2010 (UTC) Stan

Actually that helps a lot. I have my Ferry out and the sign is too cool. The three banks I'm looking at are the First State Bank. the Security Bank Building and the Guardian Trust Company, all I believe by Kahn in 1925. That one is clearly the FSB, so that leaves one to go. A 1926 Polk Directory would be very useful, I wonder if it's time to post at the Fab Ruins? In any case, thanks for doing what you did, Life is good. Carptrash (talk) 03:33, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


Please format your DYK nomination at Template talk:Did you know#Joseph H. Albers using {{NewDYKnom}}. Thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 04:28, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Joseph H. Albers

Your work on the Joseph H. Albers entry is very interesting, the simultaneous presence at the Vatican of three persons destined (not three successive persons as #3 was not there) to wear this miter is genuinely significant. Bigturtle (talk) 21:14, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Michigan Municipal League

What am I suppose to look at?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:41, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

That is not in my bailiwick. I do Michigan Wolverines stuff.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:55, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Three hares

Thank you for your e-mail on the Three hares image and its history and symbolism. I urge you to look at Wikipedia's existing articles on the triskelion and uses of the triskelion in practice, such as the flag of Isle of Man. It appears plausible to me, although proof is of course lacking, that the three hares symbol could be a triskelion. This hypothesis is plausible because hares are noted for their speed and fleetness, and a mind steeped in visual symbolism, such as a Celt during the European Middle Ages, might note the parallel nature of a human leg and a rabbit. Please take a look at these articles. Bigturtle (talk) 15:54, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

It's fine for it to be a note -- the problem is that I wasn't too sure what it was supposed to be a note to... AnonMoos (talk) 08:34, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Highand Recreation Area

A new article on Highland Recreation Area, near Pontiac, has appeared; make whatever changes you like. Bigturtle (talk) 00:33, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what other states do with their templates with regard to National Natural Landmarks; let's look and see. Bigturtle (talk) 18:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
I've tried getting help form Barek. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 18:21, 10 June 2010 (UTC) Stan
I'm kind of lurking/poking around also. Asher196 (talk) 22:34, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about the delay

in getting back to you but every now and again "real life" imposes - this time in the form of the Embudo Valley Library director's (aka, "my boss") handing in her resignation, effective July 1. You don't need to know exactly what this means, but you can probably more-or-less guess. Them bunnies look great and I have not discovered anything to add - or subtract. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 16:49, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I wandered over to Wooden synagogues and, after making a quick edit, was reminded that my copy of Krinsky's Synagogues of Europe: Architecture, History, Meaning had gone missing a decade or so ago - so I just tracked down and ordered a used copy. Found a reasonably priced one - and the price went up very quickly after that one. Life is good. Carptrash (talk) 20:21, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Gordon Thomas (politician)

The last line in the Biography section is a quote, but not attributed to anyone. I can't check the source, so you will need to take a look. Asher196 (talk) 00:42, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer

Wikipedia Reviewer.svg

Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a two-month trial scheduled to end 15 August 2010.

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under pending changes. Pending changes is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial. The list of articles with pending changes awaiting review is located at Special:OldReviewedPages.

When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious vandalism or BLP violations, and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see Wikipedia:Reviewing process). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.

If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. Courcelles (talk) 02:13, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Memory hole

This article is the subject of a Procrustean WP:Deletionist attack. I could use allies. Thank you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:56, 15 July 2010 (UTC) Stan

I don't think that is a fair assessment. In fact, there are serious issues with the material included there, particularly with the sources, as I've explained before, and with the way they're used. Also, you've reverted Gavia immer pretty aggressively there, so I would be cautious of violating WP:3RR if I were you. I don't think it's a good idea to try to recruit people to revert for you either. I've opened a discussion of the material on the Talk: page, why not discuss it there instead? Jayjg (talk) 22:43, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
7&6=thirteen, the "references" section you keep duplicating does not contain the references you think it does. It is merely a duplication of the references in the section above. Please, please, please, look at this carefully. I'm not trying to remove anything but an irrelevant duplication of references that are not relevant to the paragraph in question. Again, please don't edit war over this; instead, look very carefully at the material, and realize it is not what you think it is. Please. Please. Just look. Jayjg (talk) 22:35, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg, I am fairly certain that they are not identical. The discussion started with an iteration of the references, which were thereafter substantially modified. I put in not only the names of the articles, but the links, the sources, the names of the authors and appropriate wiki links. This is because of your insistence that the New York Times and their columnist aren't authoritative, for example. All of this got overly long, but it was dictated by your (both of you) insistence that no source was good enough. I've been around long enough to know better; this is better documented than the vast majority of Wikipedia articles. These are not "blogs".

Hypothetically, if we moved this to one of the articles as you suggested, put in two or three sentences in the Memory Hole article, with citation, with a See Kindle for example could we get past all of this crap?

I suggest that you (and your fellow editor) come up with a draft that you could live with, post it either in the article or in the discussion, and let me take a look at it. I promise I will not run rough shod over you. Somebody has to go first.

I like to contribute to meaningfully articles, and this is a big time waster for all of us. I am making this proposal as an offer of compromise, and in no way by doing so am I conceding any of your points. That being said, I would prefer to rationally work this through. I do understand the need for WP:Consensus.

Nattering at you -- or your nattering rules at me -- does not help. We are just getting dug in on an issue that we should be able to work out rationally and fairly, without burdening WP:Arbitration or WP:Mediation, or whatever.

I promise to WP:Don't be a dick, if you will reciprocate. Thanks for the direct communication. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:10, 18 July 2010 (UTC) Stan

User:7&6=thirteen, please check again, carefully. They are identical in every respect - that's the way the template works, it only produces one reflist. If you are unwilling to confirm even this simple fact, then how can we possibly achieve consensus on anything substantive? As for the rest, if you're willing to redact your personal comment, mentioned on the Talk: page, then I will believe your promise not to "be a dick". Jayjg (talk) 23:20, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg: Your removal of the first

  1. ^ a b Pearlman, Robert (1999–2012). "Where today are the Apollo 17 goodwill lunar sample displays". Retrieved November 2, 2012. 
  2. ^ Pearlman, Robert (1999–2012). "Where today are the Apollo 11 goodwill lunar sample displays?". Retrieved November 2, 2012. 
  3. ^ Pearlman, Robert (1999–2012). "Where today are the Apollo 17 goodwill moon rock displays?". Retrieved November 2, 2012. 

did create the situation you describe. If we had both of them in, the first article version would attach to the first reflist, and the second article would attach to the second reflist. You are right that as it presently appears it is wrong. If you will put in the first

I think you will see.

I the interest of expediting settlement, I will redact the remark that gave you offense. Let this be a good beginning to a new chapter. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:25, 18 July 2010 (UTC) Stan

This is completely incorrect. The two reflists were identical at all times. The only way you got them to be different was by modifying my own comment in the section above, putting "nowiki" statements around it. And you've done it again, even worse, making my comment completely unreadable. Just as you've told me not to modify your comments, please don't modify mine. You are exhibiting extreme bad faith here, after I have reached out to you again. Jayjg (talk) 23:34, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
That was an inadvertence, not an intentional slight. In an earlier iteration, there were two different sets of references that did display. I did redact my comment as promised Please redact your personal comment above. I am not exhibiting extreme bad faith. And your going out of your way to say so is a bad start. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:46, 18 July 2010 (UTC) Stan
It's bad faith, because I've explained many times that the two sets of references were always identical. That's the way the references template works. I've explained it over and over, and rather than believing me, or even comparing the two lists, you have reverted me, and stubbornly insisted here that they somehow differed. Look, the whole history of the talk page is available to you; if they differed in any version in the history, any at all, then it still exists in the history. Link me to that version of the Talk: page where they differed. Show me which one is your version, the "earlier iteration" where "there were two different sets of references that did display". If you can show me that time when they differed, I'll readily admit I was wrong. If you can't, then please admit you were wrong. That would be a very good start. Jayjg (talk) 23:51, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
You are right that I can't find it. Although I know I did see it, although it may have been in a "Show Preview" mode, I'm not sure. I know I had trouble with it earlier. So as far as the edit history, I can't find it and I was wrong. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:02, 19 July 2010 (UTC) Stan
Thank you for admitting that. Jayjg (talk) 00:22, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I apologize -- I've done a lot of that lately. Experience teaches it's better to admit than cover up. BTW, our bluejays are back after the West Nile had devastated them, and they seem (in our area) to be bigger than they used to be. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC) Stan

I'm glad to hear they're recovering; corvids were particularly hard hit. Blue Jays are pretty hardy, though, attractive and hard to keep down, which is one of the things I like about them. Perhaps your local subspecies is being replaced by Cyanocitta cristata bromia? Jayjg (talk) 03:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg, we're in Northern Michigan north of Sturgeon Point Light along the Lake Huron Shore in a cedar swamp. Given the location and habitat, you are probably right that we are seeing more Cyanocitta cristata bromia – Northern Blue Jay and we are not seeing the Cyanocitta cristata cyanotephra – Interior Blue Jay. Our other home in Warren, Michigan, Southeast Michigan has jays back but they aren't (I don't think) the larger variety -- my wife is more of a birder than I. The crows are back after having been devastated, too. That was a good thought. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 12:32, 19 July 2010 (UTC) Stan

Toledo Harbor Light

Hi. I removed the link to imagekind because of the commercial nature of the website. As it stands the article has images of the lighthouse. There may be even more images available on commons. Dawnseeker2000 20:03, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

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thanks for pointing me at

Alden B. Dow and yes, I have a few ideas, perhaps even some photos that I can dig up. My recent computer crash wiped-out my photo index so searching for particular images is tougher than it used to be. Also my brother, maybe two of them, are visiting through the begining of next week, so it is likely to be a week until I do anything. But after that . . ...... who knows? Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 20:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the book suggestions. I already have both (even in New Mexico) and it was in the Artists of Early Michigan that I discovered Edward Wagner. Carptrash (talk) 22:20, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

See Also: Three Hares

Hi there. I recently removed several "See Also" sections linking to Three Hares, as I failed to see the relevance. I then noticed they were all added by you so I thought I'll ask. Was this added to any single article about a museum in which there is a single exhibit related? At the least I'd think "Editors should provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent" (WP:ALSO). Anyway, I stopped removing them until we discuss this. --Muhandes (talk) 12:38, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Duly noted. I will try to annotate in the next week. I am under a deadline here, and then am going out of town. Thank you for the advice. I don't know which articles you removed them from, so it is difficult to respond. Best regards and happy editing. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 12:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC) Stan
The ones removed from are Israel Museum, Beth Hatefutsoth, Jewish Museum Berlin and Horb am Neckar, but the relation is not clear in other cases too, for instance History of the Jews in Galicia (Eastern Europe), Cathedral of Trier, History of the Jews in Lithuania, History of the Jews in Poland etc. Frankly, even now that I know the relation, in many cases I'm not sure it belongs in the "See Also". The rule is "links that would be in the body of a hypothetical perfect article", and with such a slim connection I'm not sure they would be. --Muhandes (talk) 13:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I guess relevance is in the eyes of the beholder. Israel Museum, Beth Hatefutsoth, Jewish Museum Berlin and Horb am Neckar are all places which have examples of Three hares in them. Indeed, all of these are mentioned in the Three hares article, and they are referenced. Indeed, if one wants to understand wooden synagogue architecture and art, I would think that Three hares would be a good place to start. The rest are similarly related. One of the things that Wikipedia linking does best is pull the world and subjects together -- it gives one perspective. Errant strings can become a loosely wound ball. I would err on the side of too much of the irrelevant, rather than too little of the relevant. If it is there, readers can click on it and decide for themselves. If it is not there, they probably won't find it themselves. 'Out of sight, out of mind' so to speak. You could add annotations to the 'See also', for example. But if you have an irrepressible urge to weed, do what you will. I personally like to plant. Happy editing. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 13:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC) Stan
I agree, relevance is in the eyes of the beholder. But I like the guidelines in WP:ALSO, so while a perfect article about wooden synagogue might have included Three Hares as a repeating motif, I doubt Horb am Neckar, Israel Museum, or History of the Jews in Lithuania would. Horb am Neckar is a town in which there used to be a synagogue (it is no longer there) which had this motif. That's quite a long way to go. Israel Museum is a museum in which there is a reconstruction of a synagogue which has it. History of the Jews in Lithuania I don't even know where to start. Yes, wooden synagogue are related, but was a Three Hares ever used in any wooden synagogue in Lithuania? I'm not sure. What would the annotation be? I think there is a line between planting a seed and random linking, which is what the WP:ALSO guideline is for. Anyway, this is just am interesting discussion, I don't really care so much, it was just an oddity. Cheers. --Muhandes (talk) 14:26, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Muhandes: FWIW, this article is better sourced than most of Wikipedia. I did not arbitrarily pick out any of those -- they are all in the sources. That synagogues disappeared from Eastern Europe does not mean that they should be wiped from memory. Far from it. In fact, their disappearance would be something that Wikipedia should document; we ought not to be complicit in the crimes of the past.
OTOH, I only have so much time, and have been trying to cut down on editing. It is endless. It is virtually thankless. And at times we have to deal with editors who have an entirely different vision of an encyclopedia, or who don't know (or care) about the subject matter. For them enforcement of rules is more important than content. I would hasten to add that I am not making an accusation here against you or anyone. WP:AGF. I for one have neither the time nor the inclination to be a WP:Administrator. BTW, I've noticed your work on the lighthouse articles, and think you have made a very nice conribution. Happy editing. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC) SrAN

Thanks for the kind words. Happy editing yourself. --Muhandes (talk) 15:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Not to mention that I have a mixed reaction to WP:NOR and WP:Reliable sources. I have seen this overused in a Procrustean way that is disconcerting.
Given the German character, it is not surprising that they have fostered the German Wikipedia. This is the country that declared in the Reinheitsgebot the legally acceptable ingredients in beer. Frankly, while admiring German beers, I think that the Belgian approach is more adventurous and fun. I recognize I am mixing my metaphors, and these Ethnic stereotypes are to be taken with a grain of salt -- and I apologize to anyone and everyone who may chance on this and take offense. In any event, I hope that English Wikipedia does not go the way of the German Wikipedia on sourcing. But it could. These kinds of fundamental controversies percolate below the surface all the time. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:47, 26 August 2010 (UTC) Stan
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