User talk:A ntv/Sandbox

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Hi A NTV, I just wanted to let you know I will not be able to look at the Guidelines article until Wednesday night because of my upcoming exams this week. Once I am done, I will fully edit it and add entire sections that need more clarification; until then I ask for your patience. Thanks, and respond to let me know whats going on. Once Im done I will create subsections to the article to make it easier for the reader to understand it's significance and it's meaning. Ninevite (talk) 00:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

no hurry in Wiki. No problem A ntv (talk) 21:00, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
have a look to my Article on Shimun VIII Yohannan Sulaqa. Thanks A ntv (talk) 01:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
thank you for your copyedit. A ntv (talk) 12:09, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
No problem, I have only edited about half the article on Sulaqa. I have noticed you have reverted some of my edits on the article, thats fine, but it sounded better before, although the current stance is feasible. Nonetheless, I enjoy working on these articles, it's alot of fun and in the process I learn something.Ninevite (talk) 01:05, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
I reverted once to stay as near as possible to the quotation referred to. In the other cases it was to make evident that the successor was chosen and consecrated by the old patriarch, not elected within his own family. The use became he was chosen even before to be born: his mother had to keep a particular died, and the nephew form his birth could eat only dairy products. From a Rome point of view these uses were unbiblical and thus unaccettable.
The other reverts I make were about patriarch consecration: what in the West (and among Eastern Orthodox) is considered the order of bishops, according the middle age CoE doctrine was divided in three ministries: bishop, metropolitan and patriarch, and to pass from one to a other it was necessary a specific liturgy (for Rome and the EO, as well as for the first millennium CoE, these 3 levels exist, but are not of sacramental nature). (this could be difficoult to understand for a Protestant, but for the CoE and for a Catholic it is estremly important). Actually Sulaqa and his supporters went Rome with the only aim to get the liturgical consecration to metropolitan / patriarch. Not to get simply a bishop consecration: they already had three bishops. So also the instigate in having the pope of Rome to instigate the consecration should be moved to something more ecclesiastical, like to celebrate the consecration or to perform the consecration.
are you sure that Sulaqa is a Low Importance for the Assyrian history? He signed the first split in the CoE, from which the present ACoE historically derives, and the majority of Assyrians are Chaldean Catholic. A ntv (talk) 07:35, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Well then I'll upgrade the importance to high, since he is an important historical assyrian figure in regards to church history. Ninevite (talk) 20:11, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Sorry my poor English, sometime I could not proper explain. You can add other biograpies to Assyrian Project, like: Joseph Audo, Joseph I, Joseph II Sliba Maruf, Joseph III Timothy Maroge, Joseph IV Lazar Hindi, Paul II Cheikho, Yousef VII Ghanima, Audishu V Khayyath, Eliya Abulyonan, Abdisho IV Maron, Nicholas I Zaya, Augustine Hindi, and particularly Yohannan Hormizd who was a key figure in the ecclesial history and I need a week of research for the Article. A ntv (talk) 20:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Don't worry I'll do that soon, I'll add the project banner to those articles because they are important church figures for assyrians. Also I invite you here for discussion regarding one of my concerns. After I add the project banners take a look at the importantce levels; some will be low, mid, and high. If you feel they are more or less important to the project then feel free to change them or let me know here. Ninevite (talk) 21:03, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I think you might be interested by this source regarding church of the east history and it's various historical names from centuries past. I have dozens more, if you are ever interested or in need of sources regarding this churches history feel free to ask me. Ninevite (talk) 22:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I knew it. It is written (or cut and copyed) according with a Protestant (Charismatic) POV, as most of Wiki is. A ntv (talk) 23:18, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Protestant View as most of wiki is? Im not sure what you mean by that. Ninevite (talk) 01:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
sorry my delay in answering. I meant that such a source uses a Protestant point of view: for example the title of the chapter about the Catholic Church, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the CoE is "Schisms": for a Catholic the title would be "True Churches". Such a text looks like to be in part made using old Articles of Wiki. Thus its use as Wiki reference shall be analyzed case by case. We could discuss about it in some forum better than on Wiki. Wiki itself is IMHO often based on Anglo-Saxon literature that has a (involuntary) Protestant POV: for example the ancient history of the CoE is in the Article about the ACoE, not in the Article about the CoE or about the Chaldean Church. Bye for now A ntv (talk) 18:36, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Do some work on the Addai and Mari section; trying adding some info to it Ninevite (talk) 00:39, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Working on on different sections[edit]

On the 20 July 2001 the Holy See issued a document, in agreement with the Assyrian Church of the East, named Guidelines for admission to the Eucharist between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East[7].

This document includes the following provisions:

  • Pastoral Necessity

Assyrian faithful are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in a Chaldean celebration of the Holy Eucharist. Since the Invasion of Iraq large populations of Chaldo-Assyrians have fled their motherland resulting in massive Diaspora in North America, Western Europe, and Australia. The escalation of immigration and rising numbers of refugees has caused the faithful of this ancient religious church to be ever more confronted with the doctrine of Pastoral Necessity. As a result, members cannot receive the sacraments from a minister of their own church. This great distress has led to a special request be made of pastoral arrangement for admission to the Eucharist, when necessity requires, between the Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldean Church.[1]

  • Ecumenical Rapprochement

Chaldean faithful are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, even if celebrated using the Anaphora of Addai and Mari in its form without the Words of Institution. With the Common Christological Declaration, signed in 1994 by Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV, the main dogmatic problem between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church has been fully resolved. As a result, the ecumenical rapprochement between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East also entered a further phase of development. On November 29, 1996, Patriarch Mar Raphael Bidawid and Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV signed a list of common proposals with a view to the re-establishment of full ecclesial unity among both historical heirs of the ancient Church of the East. On August 15, 1997, this program was approved and confirmed in a Joint Synodal Decree. The Congregation for the Oriental Churches and the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity support this process.

  • The Anaphora of Addai and Mari

Assyrian ministers are invited (but not obliged) to insert the Words of Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari when Chaldean faithfuls are present to the liturgy.

  • Guidelines for Admission to the Eucharist

1.When necessity requires, Assyrian faithful are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in a Chaldean celebration of the Holy Eucharist; in the same way, Chaldean faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist.

2.In both cases, Assyrian and Chaldean ministers celebrate the Holy Eucharist according to the liturgical prescriptions and customs of their own tradition.

3.When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.

4.The above considerations on the use of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari and the present guidelines for admission to the Eucharist, are intended exclusively in relation to the Eucharistic celebration and admission to the Eucharist of the faithful from the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, in view of the pastoral necessity and ecumenical context mentioned above


This document does not express a relationship of Full Communion, even if it marks the mutual recognition of the validity of the apostolic succession of the other Church, as well as its priesthood and sacraments, a recognition by the way never contested. It also has been possible because the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, even without the Words of Institution, has been officially declared valid by the Holy See with the very same document.

From a canonical point of view this document has not brought any breaking news. Canon 671 of the 1991 Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches of the Catholic Church already stated that "If necessity requires it or genuine spiritual advantage suggests it and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is permitted for Catholic Christian faithful, for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers, in whose Churches these sacraments are valid. 3. Likewise Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick to Christian faithful of Eastern Churches, who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask for them on their own and are properly disposed" (see also canons 843 and 844 of the Latin rite Catholic Code of Canon Law). It shall also be noted that the Assyrian Church of the East follows an Open Communion approach allowing any baptized Christian to receive its Eucharist[8].

From an ecumenical point of view this document wanted to mark a further step in the relation between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, possibly beginning a pastoral collaboration. In the following years the dialog between the two Churches slowed down and was suspended in 2002 and not yet resumed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nineveh 209 (talkcontribs) 00:40, 6 February 2009 (UTC)