User talk:Alanmak/Archive 1
Archived discussion (March 2005 - November 2005):
- 1 Welcome
- 2 HKWNB, HKCOTW, Current events
- 3 Shing Mun River picture
- 4 Wikimedia Commons
- 5 Your edits
- 6 Edits to Hong Kong
- 7 Your Help is Needed!
- 8 Standardisation of maps
- 9 Bus spotting
- 10 Map
- 11 About the Macau Region Map
- 12 The Portuguese Names are solved
- 13 Stop conflicts
- 14 Re: Phonetic symbols
- 15 Get ready?
- 16 Centre and Center
- 17 Hi! A late reply.
- 18 Railways in China
- 19 Vietnamese
- 20 laundromat picture
- 21 German version
- 22 Chinese Provinces
- 23 Sai chaan
- 24 Cantonese opera edit
- 25 Not English?
- 26 China map
- 27 Maps contd.
- 28 Re: Kung Kao Po
- 29 Chinese info template
- 30 Re: Replied
- 31 You still haven't answered my questions
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HKWNB, HKCOTW, Current events
Hi. I noticed you have edited some Hong Kong-related articles. You might be interested to take a look at HK wikipedians' notice board, HK Collaboration of the Week and Current events in Hong Kong and Macao. Happy editing! — Instantnood 21:24, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Shing Mun River picture
Hello, and welcome to the Wikipedia community. I am here to say that your edits to the Hong Kong-related articles have frequently been extremely disruptive to the articles. Since you are new here to wikipedia, you may or may not know how things are done here, however your deletion of certian information does not follow protocols. For example, when you deleted the word "national" from Hong Kong, were you aware that this is the standard template for all semi-independent countries?
Also, when you removed the image of the Hang Seng Index, which was done without any relevant discussion because I am quite fond of that image, you also deleted the link to the History of Hong Kong article.
On another note, while you have been uploading many images related to Hong Kong, you have not listed the source for any of them. Please do not forget to include the source of every image, as Wikipedia makes a concerted effort to use non-copyrighted images only. If you took the images yourself, please state as such, otherwise without a source the images could very well be deleted. Thank you. Páll 23:31, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I appreciate what you have done to the transport section. But as you know the article has been nominated as an FAC candidate of late, and some guys are just saying the paragraphs are too lengthy and tedious to read; summerisation, in other words, is urgently needed. I would remove part of your edit, but please do not think your data is of no avail. That's the rule of game, and I hope you can understand. :) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 3 July 2005 14:05 (UTC)
Your Help is Needed!
Hi Alan Mak!
So happy that we have our Hong Kong article promoted to be an WP:FAC, gaining an overwhelming popularity. I think it's not the time to cool down our ambition. The page flag of Hong Kong is now asking for your helping hand! I have greatly modelled it on flag of South Africa and flag of India, plus some brand-new illustrations added which is drawn by me with Flash, and the standard of the article has been greatly boosted, and, nearly, lived up to the feature article's standard. Still, some crucial information is absent, and that's whay your help is urgently needed!
What you can help
The following information are still missing:
- Symbolism, e.g. the meaning of the design, the bauhinia flower, the red-coloured background, etc.
- Photos, e.g. Flag raising ceremony at Golden Bauhinia Square, Flags in parade, desecration cases (I think Long Hair have tried that before ;-P), etc.
Being an active and endeavourous wikipedian, you are now asked to collaborate on this project at full stretch — and to show your pride of being a HK wikipedian!
Yours sincerely, Jerry Crimson Mann 6 July 2005 15:25 (UTC)
- Well, it's your choice, isn't it? Anyway, I love your photos very much. Maybe you should take a picture of flag raising ceremony at the Golden Bauhinia Square if you wish. :)
- PS Surely we can nominate more HK-related articles for nomination -- if they have the standard of an FAC. If you're unwilling to help with Flag of Hong Kong, maybe you can help in peer review later on, giving opinions or doing some proofread. :-D -- Jerry Crimson Mann 8 July 2005 14:26 (UTC)
Standardisation of maps
I see you're trying to add district maps into aticles about districts of Hong Kong. Good start! :-) But the design of the map is not that satisfactory. You may want to take a look at Image:Map of New York highlighting NYC.jpg. I think we have to standardise the district maps in the following ways:
- name: Map of HKSAR highlighting DISTRICTNAME
- Caption: The position of DISTRICTNAME in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region
- Image size:320px
- External link: Add Google's satellite map, marked as "details".
- Can you show me the example of a Taiwan city? Many thanks. Actually the main purpose of the map is to show where a Hong Kong district is within the territory, but not to tell others where Hong Kong is with in the PRC's territory. The zoom-out map is somehow redundant, as it has been shown in the page of Hong Kong. Very likely, the zoom-out maps in every district map would be exactly the same, which has in fact lost its significance. Paleness is not a problem; after all, we need to stick to the standard routine. You can contact me via icq @ 48299807. :)
- Gee. Thanks for yuor speedy response. Let's collaborate on this interesting project. :) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 15:23, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Bus enthusiast, that article has now been merged into bus spotting. I did the merge myself, so please feel free to check the resulting article and correct any discrepancies you find in my work. Cheers! -- BD2412 talk 19:15, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
Straight to the point now:
- First your colour scheme is no good, to be honest: khaki can's go with pink like that. =.= Perhaps we should make a reference of some web design websites, and see whether we can grab some stunning inspiration. ;-)
- I think we should make a discussion later on with all HK wikipedian, which is of grave importance, collecting their opinions and, subsequently, reaching a consensus. Everything else is a comprise.
- Your image format, i.e. JPEG, is not really suitable for map making. Pixerisation and loss of quality would be the outcome if you reduce the size of the picures. I think PNG format would be much better off in creating district maps.
- I like your modification of the template. Btw, is "Hong Kong Special Administrative Region" just a bit lengthy? :-)
-- Jerry Crimson Mann 14:23, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
- OK, hope we can have a discussion on map-drawing within days.
- Despite a wide-ranging colour scheme supported, there's a serious pixerisation and a loss of quality when reducing the size of a Jpeg image. Gif images have no such problems, but can store 256 colours. No distortion of image quality would happen in PNG while possessing numerous colours.
- I go along with you on the issue of the full name of the HKSAR.
- Cantonese Wikipedia? I'd love to see if there's one...:) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 06:25, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
About the Macau Region Map
I have written something on Image talk:AdministrativeDivisionOfMacao.png about the English name of the Macau-Taipa Bridge. Also I found the Portuguese Name of the places. I hope they are helpful for you.--HeiChon~XiJun 17:32:33, 2005-08-03 (UTC)
I've got your message. I've asked my cousin how to translate those words in Portuguese by sending an offline ICQ msg. I think I can tell you soon.--HeiChon~XiJun 07:41:53, 2005-08-04 (UTC)
The Portuguese Names are solved
I have posted them of the Image talk. Go and see them!--HeiChon~XiJun 03:49:24, 2005-08-05 (UTC)
I thought we could deal with things in a more peaceful manner...but the situation seems to be pretty the opposite. You said my use of "masterpiece" was humiliating. But I don't think so (see my explanation in the discussion page). Please calm down for the time being (I'm also trying to do so, though it's hard...) and get the conflicts fixed. After all, argument doesn't help with contribution.
Hope we could get things OK soon. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 08:24, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Re: Phonetic symbols
The naming conventions and manual of style of Wikipedia advise editors to include at list one way of romanisation in brackets for equivalent of titles in other languages if it is non-roman letter-based. Unlike Mandarin and Pinyin, there is no standardised and widely-recognised romanisation method for Cantonese, and therefore I include both. IPA is advised by Wikipedia for pronunciation, while Jyutping is, in my opinion, one of the most well-established for Cantonese. The only solution to avoid the long length would be moving towards the Korean-related topics style, that is, to have an infobox for different written forms and romanisation methods on the right hand side of the page. I'm actually working on the template of a similar infobox (well, you know what I'm occupied by lately), and I'd love to hear your comment and opinion. — Instantnood 08:28, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Let's see what will the community prefer. I myself prefer the infobox style to inline text. Pinyin is recognised by the UN, and as far as I remember, ISO. Jyutping is not having the same status as Pinyin is to Mandarin. There are other also well-established systems, such as Yale. In comparison, IPA is a universal standard that everyone can read. — Instantnood 08:53, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
I'm darn sure that Urban council and Regional Council would be become the winners of Hong Kong Collaboration of the Week! So be quick to prepare ingredients for these articles! :-) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 16:04, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Centre and Center
- Well in fact I noticed your picture added to Hong Kong English at special:recentchangeslinked/List of Hong Kong-related topics. Cheung Kong Center, the headquarters of Cheung Kong Holdings, is at 2 Garden Road, Central. I'm looking for its picture because of its spelling, for comparison with New World Centre. Not sure if it's politically incorrect. Most shops in Festival Walk do not have Chinese names on their signboards either. Don't forget CITIC is one of the shareholders of Festival Walk. :-D — Instantnood 08:37, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Hi! A late reply.
Sorry, I just noticed your message in my talk page.....
My cousin was studied in Portugal and he is now a pharmacist in there. He was educated by Portuguese since Kindergarden in Macau. My msn: email@example.com--HeiChon~XiJun 16:32:39, 2005-08-24 (UTC)
Railways in China
Hello, u know Vietnamese? how did u get that phrase? That's great!!! :P --K.C. Tang 01:24, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
- um......i did play a lot of icq when i am younger (many years ago!!!), but i am a bit of an "old cake" :( now, and, u know, when one grows older, one won't enjoy too much the way ICQ/MSN works (I dun know y!). I know the Talking System in Wiki is not very good, and yes, one may say, quite troublesome, but I prefer using this not-too-efficient way of communication. Thanks for your kindness :P --K.C. Tang 04:06, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
- Ah, Alan, it seems that u r knowledgable about Spanish! An interesting anecdote. ^_^ --K.C. Tang 05:03, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
- um...i try to teach myself some languages only when i have leisure and energy, but i am not verbally gifted, so my progress is always unusually slow. German is a very interesting language, and i particulary enjoy German grammar (i know it sounds a bit freakish), sometimes i would take out my little German grammar to read as if i am reading an erotica ... --K.C. Tang 06:40, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
- Ah, Alan, it seems that u r knowledgable about Spanish! An interesting anecdote. ^_^ --K.C. Tang 05:03, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I've removed your laudromat picture from the Solar cell page. I may be mistaken, but it looks like a solar thermal installation (there are pipes, the thickness is important etc.) and not like photovoltaic pannels. Therefore, it is not related with the solar cell article (If those are really solar cells, revert my edit, but gives us some information about what kind of cell they are please) Your photo appears also on the pages Solar power and laundromat. If I am right, you need to change the caption on those pages to properly describe the installation. Glaurung 11:28, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I've noticed that u've started the German article. do u have some kind of German word processor to help u? how could u remember all the declensions and genders? Amazing!!! Salute ^_^ --K.C. Tang 12:49, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
- Alan's actually studying the German language in the States. ;-) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 15:31, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I'm interested in where you got the province boundaries for your map titled 'TibetanPlateau.jpg'. Did you draw them in by hand, looking at another map, or were you able to find vector data with the same projection as the underlying Demis map? Please let me know if you can. Thanks very much, —Papayoung 20:44, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
In response to your edit summary, I believe it's acceptable to use a non-English vocabulary in italic form. As for the infobox, I did not actually propose to do so, I just mentioned the Korean example, and said that can be an alternative. If you're testing the template, please seek community consensus on that, and please don't put that up on so many articles before any discussion has ever taken place. — Instantnood 17:08, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
- Literal translation is not always superior to transliteration. As for the infobox I have never said it's better than, and should replace inline style. I am open on the issue, but I am skeptical towards its implementation with little discussion. — Instantnood 17:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Cantonese opera edit
With regards to your comment, I wish to point out that no native English speaker would pronounce "dai hay" as the curseword because ay is always pronounced /ei/ in English, not /ai/. Anyone who can read a curseword from "dai hay" is not a native English speaker (and I, a native Cantonese speaker, spent almost an entire minute figuring out why you said it’s a curseword; I would say that if you insist of English pronunciations, the true problem is in the pronunciation of "dai", not of "hay"). The rationale for your edit is that "hay" would be read as the curseword in English; this, however, is not true and is thus not a valid reason.
Not that I agree with the use of transliterated Cantonese words, nor have I anything to do with the original version, but the word was in parentheses. Such inclusion of Chinese terms is not unusual; I see nothing wrong with the original version.—Gniw (Wing) 04:22, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Continued from above. I noticed you keep removing transliterated terms from many articles because "they [were] not English". I don't agree there's anything wrong to include italicised transliterated terms. Literal translation is not superior to, and is not always better than transliteration. — Instantnood 09:11, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi! You drawing: Image:ChinaGeography.png is unfortunately a POV as it does not reflect the true territorial status of the dispute between India and China. Could you have the Aksai Chin and Arunachal Pradesh regions marked on the map please? Thanks. =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
- Hi. I know there is a problem with the maps. The problem is that we have too few cartographers. (I know that map of mine is unclear, a lot of my old ones are). I have had fruitful discussions with user:ran user:Ankur and we've agreed to have all maps of Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh NPOV'd. I suggest we create blank NPOV maps of India, China, Pakistan in svg format and make it a template for others to use. I've already released my states of India images as NPOV. What if we create a wikiproject to deal with such issues? Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 05:33, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Apologies for the late reply. Yeah, I know, we do have a lot of POV maps floating around. we have to leave the past behind and concentrate on getting NPOV maps in WP. First we'd need NPOV political maps of Asia, India, China and Pakistan. I'd strongly suggest we use the .svg format for maps. Once we do that, we can use those to create blank maps of states/provinces. We'd also need do the same to maps of Myanmar, Bhutan and Afghanistan since they border the disputed areas. Once we get this basic infrastructure in place, we should advertise it so that it can be used as the template.
On the topographic front User:Captain Blood has been kind enough to supply NPOV topo maps of India, Nepal and Bhutan.
As for images sourced from external sites, there's nothing much we can do if its on an external site. If its on wikipedia, we can redraw the maps on the svg templates.
- Nichalp @ yahoo (& also at google talk -- but I don't have it at installed home right now). We can also meet at #wikipedia in IRC. PS I won't be online for the rest of the today. =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Re: Kung Kao Po
- [Reference: But "Kung Kao Pao" is already a Cantonese transliteration. If you don't like people to "flood" the articles, please don't flood the article with excessive romanizations.]
I'm the one who originally added the jyutping, and I disagree that this is "flooding" the article. First, you cannot know how to pronounce "Kung Kao Po" in true Cantonese. Second, such kind of thing (an anglicized romanization annotated with a more precise romanization) happens with non-Chinese articles too, e.g., articles regarding Jewish culture. I have never heard of anyone complaining over there that people are "flooding the articles with romanizations".—Gniw (Wing) 09:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- And articles like Shanghai, Beijing, Chongqing, Sichuan, Hubei too. — Instantnood 15:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- [Replied in log message: I don't agree that Yuepin is necessary in this case, despite your explanation in my talk page.]
- This is sad. How can any English speaker know how to pronounce the name of the newspaper in Cantonese? Cantonese people of course knows how to pronounce the words; or do you provide Cantonese romanizations just for Cantonese people?
- Chinese people just do not value our own culture and heritage.
- Look at Hanukkah and Rosh Hashanah. Look at Kashrut. See how they all are romanizations. And they all have detailed romanizations in brackets that look just like the article titles. Look at their detailed romanizations in the parentheses. Try to remove their detailed romanisations, and see how other people might feel about your actions. The former two examples even have the detailed romanizations spelt exactly the same as the article titles, and the latter only differ by one letter; for "Kung Kao Po" at least the title of the newspaper is spelt very differently than the jyutping!—Gniw (Wing) 22:00, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- We have completely different viewpoints here.
- Do all the Wikipedia readers want to know how all the Hebrew words are pronounced in Hebrew? Definitely not! (a point that can be clearly seen in their own discussions about Hebrew romanizations here.) Have they started to remove all the detailed romanizations from their articles? No. Does this mean these extra romanizations, some of which look exactly the same as the article titles after all the diacritics are removed, are "ridiculous" and "flood"? No.
- (Is "all readers wanting to know" even a valid criteria? Do all readers want to know the street address of the Toronto Star's headquarters? Or how tracks pass each other in Toronto's subway system? Why do you think "all readers wanting to know" a necessary criteria in including a piece of information?)
- Is Cantonese romanized in a way where one letter represents multiple sounds? Definitely. The letter "k", for example, (very pertinent to the article in question) represents both /k/ and /g/ (our real dictionaries' phonemic IPA, not Wikipedian-style phonetic IPA). How can you say the people can know how "k" is pronounced in Cantonese when they see just a "k"?
- How is transcribing the correct Cantonese sound "ridiculous" when the word itself is supposed to be Cantonese?
- If transcribing correct Cantonese pronunciations is "ridiculous", why bother to add the pinyin? If readers are not going to be interested in the real Cantonese pronunciation when the word itself is Cantonese in origin, why bother even with its exact Mandarin pronunciation? If you ask me which is "flooding the article" (not that I agree that they are flood—in fact IMHO these are useful information and therefore I do not agree with your deletions), I have to say the pinyin is the flood, not the jyutping.—Gniw (Wing) 14:30, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Don't make any silly points. The reason why Mandarin Pinyin was added, was because the name "Kung Kao Po" is not a transliteration from Mandarin. It is not the matter of whether the pronunciation of Mandarin is accurate or not. It is the because the title of the article tells people nothing about the Mandarin pronunciation. That is the point for adding Pinyin. - Alanmak
- These are not silly points. Apparently you have not read my P.S. below.—Gniw (Wing) 04:45, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
- PS: It seems that you are not aware of the following:
- In Hong Kong, there are some Westerners who prefer to mimic the real Cantonese sounds (minus the tones) when pronouncing Cantonese romanizations. For these people, jyutping would be useful (and IMHO better than ambiguous Wikipedia-style phonetic IPA).
- Outside Hong Kong (and maybe Britain), the probability of a Westerner pronouncing "Kung" correctly is close to zero, and it almost certainly (at least the case here in Canada) would be pronounced [kʰʌŋ]. I have to ask you whether you really find this acceptable.
- For the second point, if we include jyutping, the correct information is at least there if the reader cares. If we take out jyutping, IMHO, you are implicitly sanctioning the wrong pronunciation [kʰʌŋ].—Gniw (Wing) 17:30, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
In response to your response at Wing's talk page : It is the manual of style and naming conventions of Wikipedia that recommend pronunciation guides to be included for non-Roman letter-based languages. As I've said some time before, there's no single and universal standard in Cantonese (Pinyin is not a truly universal standard for Mandarin too, but that's beyond the discussion here). IPA is useful for readers who have some basic training in that system. Yale is popular in Cantonese teaching in the west, while Jyutping is a system developed by the Linguistic Society of Hong Kong. All these system possess some certain authority, and I find no reason that any one of them is superior to the other two when applied to Hong Kong-related entries.
If you do have an issue, please kindly help read
template talk:nihongo template:nihongo/Help and see how the same can be done so that readers can choose to display some certain transliteration systems but not the others by setting .js and .css.
As for Pinyin, I agree with Wing that what's flooding the first line of articles is Pinyin, not Jyutping, Yale nor IPA. Nevertheless I don't think there's any harm to include Pinyin since Putonghua is de facto official in Hong Kong. — Instantnood 16:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC) (modified 09:03, 30 November 2005 (UTC))
I see no points for not including the Mandarin pronunciation whenever a Chinese terms is mentioned here. Standard Mandarin is the official language of the entire nation. Even most foreigners that learn "Chinese language" is actually learning Mandarin Chinese. Mandarin has a very high importance, but some sino-phobia guys oppose any use of Mandarin, just because Mandarin is also used in mainland China. This is strange. - Alanmak 04:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
- Please do not make any silly points. No one is a sinophobia here, and no one is saying "we should not include Mandarin because Mandarin is also used in mainland China". However, for articles whose titles are Cantonese in origin, correct Cantonese pronunciation is valid etymological information.
- (In contrast, besides Mandarin being the national language, the Mandarin pronunciation would have no direct relation to an article whose title is obviously not derived from a Mandarin pronunciation. This [i.e., lack of direct relationship to the article] is the reason why I say "the pinyin is the flood, not the jyutping".)—Gniw (Wing) 05:09, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
This is not a silly point. People with sinophobia won't know / admit that they are. I was not intended to mean that you are sinophobic, but some other people.
I didn't say Cantonese was unnecessary, but it was somebody who said "Mandarin is not necessary". Anyway, Kung Kao Po is Cantonese, Gong Jiao Bao is Mandarin. That simple!
P.S. You don't have to come and check my talk page all the time. :-) But I feel bored to discuss about this topic with you. No matter how much I say, you are still going to insist your point. (In your view, maybe I am insisting my point too.) On top of that, I am pretty busy this week. But I will try by best to revert some article if I have time. :-)
- Alanmak 05:19, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
- Well, there is no such thing as an NPOV; thus I completely agree that “People with sinophobia won't know / admit that they are”. Everything that everyone says has one or more unstated POV’s (that is, of course, including me, and you), and even "all views are accepted" is itself a POV (that all views are equally valid). Realizing that what everyone says is POV, in turn, helps us to approximate, if we want to, something that might look like an NPOV, though whether such an approximate NPOV is a good thing or not is debatable.
- What our discussion has done, at the very least, is to make us see the other person’s unstated POV’s: Or at least I hope you can understand my POV’s; hopefully I have understood yours. Obviously, understanding does not, however, imply agreement.
- (Actually, it may be even more important that we can see our own unstated POV’s from the discussion. Which brings us back to your comment, that “People with sinophobia won't know / admit that they are”.)
- Nevertheless, in insisting on an absolute NPOV—i.e., failing to realize that NPOV does not actually exist—Wikipedia can never attain NPOV because its foundation is ultimately POV’d. Paradoxical, yes, but true.
- Thus, I keep telling people “don’t believe everything you read on Wikipedia”—yet I keep editing these articles. Another of these paradoxes: So my New Year Resolution (whenever the closest New Year is) is to stop editing on Wikipedia. :–)
- PS. Whenever I put a comment on a talk page, I add it on my watch list. Your talk page just keep cropping up. :–) —Gniw (Wing) 05:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Chinese info template
That template with the chinese characters and various transliterations is so much nicer than several lines of unreadable inline text. Please keep converting articles to use it. SchmuckyTheCat 17:21, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
- There was some debates over box and inline formats. The box style is not welcome by everyone. — Instantnood 17:36, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
You still haven't answered my questions
You complained that I'm not saying anything. That's because you still haven't answered my questions.