User talk:Mahagaja/Archive 6
- 1 Editing Celtic language articles
- 2 Intresting Ayyavazhi Family
- 3 Help needed to review an article
- 4 Coil-curl merger
- 5 Taki langauge
- 6 Re: Graft's RfA
- 7 Manx: extinct?
- 8 Please resign as an administrator
- 9 Votes for Undelete
- 10 Palindromemordnilap
- 11 Mental Space
- 12 My RfA
- 13 Wikiwoohoo's RfA
- 14 Etsunan
- 15 German
- 16 DYK
- 17 Merge
- 18 VIP
- 19 CJ for 'Korea'
- 20 Some fun votes involving nice characters
- 21 Shape-gender correlation
- 22 Vandalism on Armenian_language / request for mediation
- 23 RM debacle
- 24 Celtic literature
- 25 Languages and such
- 26 Thank you
- 27 You're making me Angr
- 28 Phonemic differentiation etc.
- 29 Re: fake news
- 30 Image:Rdropping.JPG has been listed for deletion
- 31 non-rhotic map
- 32 UT Music
- 33 Help! (again)
- 34 From a new admin
- 35 Linkspam and vandalising: Dada and Carton Tragedy
- 36 Weißenburg in Bayern
- 37 The dumb me
- 38 Sorbian languages
- 39 Help with Deutsch Wikipedia
- 40 Vegan edit
- 41 Ask for deletion
- 42 German Wikpedian requests
Editing Celtic language articles
Hello, Angr. I am beginning a series of edits to the various articles on Wikipedia that deal with Celtic languages. I am specifically inviting you to comment, if you wish, on my editing as you seem to share some of the same educational background and interest in those languages as I do. P.MacUidhir 22:42, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. I appreciate the oversight of the work, as it seems there are not that many of us working on Celtic language articles for Wikipedia.
- I am thinking of extracting the grammar sections of the current Manx language article, transferring them to a new Manx grammar article, and then expanding it. Is there anything I should know before doing this, in terms of procedure or custom here at Wikipedia? I can easily copy-paste the sections to a new article, but I want to be certain that when I do so I do not step on unknown regulations or other peoples' toes here. ;) For example, do we have templates for this action? I think I have seen one, but figured to ask first.
- postscript #1- I found this template. Wikipedia:WikiProject_Language_Template. That covers languages in general. Still looking for something that regulates crafting specific grammar articles, though. P.MacUidhir 21:55, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
- postscript #2- Hmm. Looks like grammar articles are not particularly popular here. I shall just work on expanding what is already in place at the main article.
Intresting Ayyavazhi Family
Hai Angr, there are intresting articles about Ayyavazhi, a new religion on both mythology and religiosity. Wikipedia is rich with this topic in English, but poor in other languages. Since french is a leading language in Wikipedia it is better to translate the contents on this AYYAVAZHI family to french. - Paul Raj
Help needed to review an article
Hi, i was wondering if you could help review the article Aesop, recently edited by User:Wetman. i reverted his change because in my opinion, his wordings were POV (suggesting that Aesop did not exist) and his use of the words "tradition" and "guise" were really awkward. He seemed to disagree with me and reverted it back. i don't want to offend anyone or start an edit war so i'm seeking help from a third party, i.e. you. :) Let me know if you could mediate in this alright? Thanks a lot! --Plastictv 13:00, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
- Alright, i shall respect your opinion then. Thanks again! --Plastictv 00:10, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
This page claims that the merger is "nonexistent". This surprised me: I'd understood that the merger was real (although almost extinct), and that what was mythical was the reversal of the sounds so that coil sounded like curl and vice versa. The page also needs converting X-SAMPA to IPA, but I'd like to check the facts first.--JHJ 18:05, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks. I've used some of your comments in an attempt to improve the article. I presume there is a reference for the Labov 1966 bit, in which case it should be added.--JHJ 19:04, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I can't find where I got this from, I believe from some off shoot internet site. If all elese fails, just add it to the VfD until I can find something. Molotov (talk) 16:29, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Re: Graft's RfA
hi. someone removed Manx from the extinct language article. does Manx have any remaining speakers? i thought not. i imagine that this is a touchy subject? peace – ishwar (speak) 22:26, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Also on the subject of Manx, the Manx language article discusses the orthography, but doesn't really make much of an effort at explaining what's going on. This page seems to say that tuittym is pronounced [toʒəm], which suggests there's more to it than just that it's English-based, as do some of the other examples I've seen. I've noticed that there are excellent and detailed articles on Irish phonology and Irish orthography which I believe you're largely responsible for; is there any chance of similar information for Manx (and Scottish Gaelic, particularly for the vowels), or is there really not enough information out there? (By the way, how accurate is the information about Scottish Gaelic phonology on http://www.akerbeltz.org/fuaimean/fuaimean.htm and its linked pages?)--JHJ 17:00, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Please resign as an administrator
You have just made an egregious breach of the rule against not making personal attacks on Categories for deletion. I suggest that you should resign as an adminsistrator. CalJW 09:12, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Votes for Undelete
Hi Angr, I think we were too hasty in deleting Seduction Community. I've nominated it for undeletion. Most of the votes for delete were done before the article was substantially deleted. I think someone among the admins should take some interest and investigate the editing history in more detail.... The last version removed all external links and references except for links to NY Times and other major media sources. At the same time, some of the external links remain on Wikipedia at other pages, David DeAngelo and Ross Jeffries are two of them. The Seduction Community article is much more neutral and NPOV about the phenomenon as a whole.... Let me know. DutchSeduction 11:01, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Can you please explain "I stand by my decision..."? Take consideration of my earlier reasoning. I believe the other articles listed above are POV, and badly written compared to this one, so it is good to have a clear and consistent policy in place... Thanks in advance. DutchSeduction
I thought it was the policy to require everyone to re-vote after substantial revision? This was the concern of fuddlemark after he spent considerable time revising and helping newcomers with knowledge of the subject (myself inluded) to create a decent entry. Each of the points raised by the "delete" voters was specifically handled and addressed, but no one was required to re-vote or re-consider. Anyway, let's avoid discussion of the AfD process, please look a little deeper at the article itself, in particular the revisions done AFTER the votes to delete. It would be useful to have your opinion on this. If it's a waste of time, say so. But I think a mistake was made in this case. Let me know. Thanks.... DutchSeduction 14:05, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Seduction Community was mentioned on CNN today.... We should work on cleaning and improving the article. But now that it's deleted and lost in admin process, how?
After speaking to people personally what I think has happened is that there is significant bias against an article that is primarily about picking up women. No matter how much major media attention the Seduction Community has gotten, people suspect it is some kind of a scam rather than a social trend. The NY Times says it is notable. WP says obsolete video games are more notable. Sock puppetry or not there is undeniable WP bias and communism against newer people going on. Some of the comments and edits have been sincere, look closely at my revision history and efforts to eliminate POV and promotion. DutchSeduction 02:59, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi Angr, yes I will do that. It is one of my future plans to expand that page.--Wiglaf 11:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Hey Angr. Thanks for taking the time to vote on my RfA. Although you didn't vote for me ;) thanks for putting in the time to give your opinion. I'm taking all comments I get to help me improve. Wikiwoohoo 15:25, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
At List of country names in various languages, there is no problem with Etsunan per se, but I can see two objections:
1. Unlike 豪州 for Australia (for instance), which is still used by some people, nobody in Japan says Etsunan. It is dead except for expressions like 日越関係 (Japanese-Vietnamese relations).
2. You are opening the door to a large number of 'former usages', like 仏蘭西 (instead of フランス) for France and similar kanji compounds for countries like Mexico, the Philippines, Germany, Russia, England, Spain, etc. These are all of 'historical interest' but they are not current. In the case of 仏蘭西, of course, they survive in expressions like 日仏関係 (Japanese-French relations), but the full expression is not used except in some literary works (for atmosphere). And then there is the infamous 支那 Shina for China, no longer used except in fixed expressions (like the 'East China Sea'). This would have to be listed, too, by rights. You start with these 19th century kanji expressions and you logically have to go the whole hog! Vietnam also has a number of historical names for neighbouring countries like Myanmar and Cambodia. I'm just wondering where you draw the line. Surely it is better to draw the line at 'current usage' rather than try to include every historical usage. Just my thoughts on the matter. Give me the word and I can include as many old usages as you like :) Bathrobe 09:55, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
You make an excellent suggestion. The article you propose should not be confined only to Japanese but should include Chinese as well. The reason is that many of these old usages have their roots in Chinese, not Japanese. 仏蘭西, for instance, would be Futsuransei in Japanese and Fólánxī in Chinese, strongly suggesting that the pronunciation is based on Chinese, not Japanese. The interesting thing is that modern Chinese uses a slightly different word for France, which is 法蘭西 Fǎlánxī, usually now reduced to 法國/法国 Fǎguó (the traditional pronunciation was the irregular Fàguó, but this has been 'regularised' by the Mainland Chinese). This is also the case for a number of country names, including Italy and Germany, where Japanese and Chinese character usage differ. In fact, all this dates back to an era of interchange in the 19th century when educated Japanese were steeped in the Chinese tradition, something which young Japanese today are not. I believe that the Japanese actually took these names from China, through Chinese books imported at the time, although I'm not 100% sure of this.
Vietnamese should also be included in such an article because many Vietnamese country names are based on the Chinese. For example, 'France' in Vietnamese is Pháp, based on the Chinese character 法 -- see above. (Some information of this sort was included in the list of countries until I deleted it. I did so not because it wasn't interesting but because it goes beyond the scope of such a list. It's disruptive to such a list to have someone continually calling out, 'Hey, this word is related to this word!') But this information would be ideal for inclusion in the article you suggest. I don't know anything about Korean but I suspect it is the same. An article on place names in the 'Sinosphere' might be very interesting.
Bathrobe 11:31, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Did I volunteer to do this? OK, let me see what I can do, but it may take a while as I have been spending too much time on Wikipedia recently and have some rather pressing things to do. :( I've also raised the idea with User:Le Anh-Huy, who also seems to have some interest in this general topic. Bathrobe 12:35, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, sorry to bother you with such a trivial question, but what's the meaning of "Ich schmachte sehr weil du mit mir nicht kommen"? "Schmachte" is most probably a misspelling. Boo to that 'cause i know nil about German. --Plastictv 16:47, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
- Haha, which means i almost guessed it right. My initial guess was "i regret very much that you won't come with me." Thanks a great deal. :) --Plastictv 18:59, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
|Did you know? has been updated. A fact from the article Nez Percé language, which you recently created, has been featured in that section on the Main Page. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.|
Hi there, just thought I would put this here as we both put it up within minutes of each other: I have recommended a merge between Modern language and Modern Languages. Thanks, -- Kilo-Lima 17:52, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I had to leave after I unprotected VIP. I think 20 minutes might be enough, but we really need to keep that page as open as we can. I'll have no problem with protecting it again if he comes back. But, I see he hasn't yet. :) --Phroziac(talk) 19:57, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
CJ for 'Korea'
I've put in Chinese and Japanese for Korea; I'll check the Vietnamese. I don't know the Korean. Incidentally, you should be aware there is a political dimension to this. South Koreans object quite strongly to 'Chosen' because it is perceived as discriminatory, but North Korea still uses it. Bathrobe 07:47, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Some fun votes involving nice characters
I have a lot of respect for your opinion on things linguistic so I thought I'd try to interest you in the following votes.
Haukur Þorgeirsson 23:14, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks for letting me know about those. Let me know if there's a vote on moving Ubeda back to Úbeda. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 06:55, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
- Sure thing. There now is :) - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:20, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi Angr, and thanks for reading—and reacting to—my article on the correlation between object shape and noun gender. You are perfectly right about one important thing: The article does not mention any reference, although I did try to find some on the internet. However, the correlation in question is certainly not my idea and I don't think the article can be labeled as original research. I have known about this correlation for maybe 10-15 years, from colleagues back in the uni days. The only thing that you can label as original is the choice of fruit and vegetables for the noun list, but then again the list itself and the calculation are just given as an illustration, to help readers understand the established fact. No excuse intended, but you know better than I do that not everything needs to be supported by a reference; we don't mention a book every time we say that German nouns have three genders.
Now I'm not sure how this is usually handled on Wikipedia. We can remove the article if it really does not belong here. Or we can just consider it a poorly written article until I—or anyone else—can come up with a reference. This may take some time, because if googling continues to fail I will need to contact some people and ask for their help. If your vigilance is doubled by an interest in the subject you may even be in a better position to help—as you surely have noticed, I am not a linguist. I will comply with any reasonable decision. --AdiJapan 02:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
- Sounds reasonable. I'm working on finding references for the article. In the meantime I moved it to a user page as you said. Thanks. --AdiJapan 08:03, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
- Oh, already? I thought you said that if I move it to my user page I can keep working on it there until it's encyclopedia-ready. Anyway, before you nominate the article to AfD shouldn't I move the contents back from my user page to where it was? --AdiJapan 09:16, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Vandalism on Armenian_language / request for mediation
Can you help me with Armenian_language and its talkpage? This has nothing to do with a linguistic discussion at the moment; an IP keeps on deleting any reference to Turkish influence on Armenian phonology and vandalises the talk page deleting old contributions it doesn't like. Being an admin, could you tell him how we handle stuff? The IP seems not to be responsive to arguing, beside he keeps calling for monitoring himself. --Tickle me 10:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Angr, I would really appreciate your support at Talk:Skånska. Currently, people are trying to say that Requested Moves can ignore policy on the basis of a very questionable practice of allowing majority votes (rather than anything approaching consensus) decide on what's neutral or not. I've already had to fight off one attempt to POV the title, and it's really disheartening to see this RM rules lawyering try to POV it in the opposite direction.
Hi, Angr! A request for an article on Celtic literature has come up at WP:CSB, an I thought of you. I'm not quite sure how to start and structure such an article. Also, I'm not sure how this should link up with the articles on Irish literature, Scottish literature, Welsh literature, Breton literature and Cornish literature If the idea gets you excited, go for it. Otherwise, suggestions for a plan of attack might be handy. --Gareth Hughes 16:43, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Languages and such
Your edits to the language reference desk regarding my question about nondimensionalization really made my day today. I have been testing the waters in German Wikipedia these few weeks, and lately it has not been so fun. Perhaps it's because my stubs there are a bit too pitiful and the users there think I'm trying to disrupt the place. See de:Idared, de:Kirschtomate, de:Anharmonischer Oszillator. But after I saw your help on the reference desk today it made me feel much, much better. Thank you. --HappyCamper 22:05, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it. I might get back to you in a month when I've struggled through more verb tables and dictionaries. Right now, I only know colloquial/conversational German, and it is extremely difficult to write anything useful or NPOV with it. And yes, that "blocked user" just won't get off my case. At least there's a more understanding admin here: . Anyway, I look forward to reading more of your contributions regarding languages on Wikipedia. I had no idea the field could be so fascinating!! --HappyCamper 22:47, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
For dealing with this situation that could have gone much worse. Also, I voted delete on the Taki Language stub because I could not find it. Thanks for all the things you do.
You're making me Angr
y. No, I think you're funnier than me. Say, Tim and Bob are walking in the forest. Suddenly, Bob clutches his chest and falls to the ground. Tim panics, calls 911, and blurts "Help me, my friend just had a heart attack! I think he's dead!" The operator at the other end says "Calm down. First, let's make sure he's dead." He hears a gunshot, and then Tim's voice comes on the line: "Ok, so, what do I do now?" ;-) Jake013 11:57, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Phonemic differentiation etc.
Thanks for tidying this up; the page was in limbo and was a bit of a mess. There are a couple of things, though:
- There are now two entries for the long-mid mergers on the History of the English language page. There's the one that has just been moved from Phonemic differentiation, and there's another one earlier (the "loss of most remaining diphthongs" bit, which talks about these mergers. Unfortunately I don't fully understand the latter section (it mentions lots of Middle English phonemes, like distinct /ai/, /ei/ and /ɛi/, without context) so I don't feel up to sorting this myself. (I mentioned this on Talk:History_of_the_English_language#Long mid mergers ages ago, but didn't get a response.)
- Should things like the "line/loin merger", which only affects a few accents, really be on History of the English language, which is a very long page? I don't think it's a good idea for that page to be where every sound change that affects some English dialects ends up.
--JHJ 17:09, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your go-ahead on the redirects for deletion page. I have created a page that is rather half-article, half-disambiguation. Perhaps that's the right thing to do, perhaps not, but I'd love it if you'd look at the "finished" (heh) project, and tell me what you think. --Jacquelyn Marie 21:53, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Image:Rdropping.JPG has been listed for deletion
|An image or media file that you uploaded, Image:Rdropping.JPG, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you.|
¦ Reisio 01:22, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, your replacement map Image:Non rhotic-whites-usa.png looks good, but it duplicates an error I made in Image:Rdropping.JPG, namely that Charleston, SC is marked as nonrhotic instead of Savannah, GA. If you look at the original map I mentioned at Image talk:Rdropping.JPG you'll see Savannah has several nonrhotic speakers and Charleston rather few. Thanks! --Angr/tɔk tə mi 08:52, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- Fixed. :) Did you come across any licensing information on that site? I didn't find any, so it seems worth asking them if those maps are free to upload here or on Commons. I could duplicate them all, but that'd take a while. :p ¦ Reisio 09:48, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I was fortunate enough to meet Dr. Green before he died. When I was in the process of applying to grad school, I actually sat in on a counterpoint class he was teaching. I didn't know him well, but as I recall, he was a brilliant theorist. And my office (in MBE) is right next to the string project guys, so I know that pretty well, too. :) Microtonal...(Put your head on my shoulder) 00:44, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
- I'll see what I can do. :) As I said, though, I didn't really know him all that well. I couldn't find a CV on the web anywhere, but if you've got one, I could work from it. Microtonal...(Put your head on my shoulder) 15:15, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, sorry to bother you again. i'm wondering if you'd be able to help me in this. i recently uploaded a bunch of maps but, alas, i realized that they have copyright issues. It'd be rather tedious to request deletion for every one, so could you help me to delete everything at one go? i supply the image names below (sorry it looks messy):
i'm in the process of making new ones that do not infringe copyrights and will soon upload them onto Wikicommons. :) Thanks so much for your help! --Plastictv 16:28, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks so much! You are an angel in err... disguise. :p --Plastictv 01:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
From a new admin
Thanks, Angr, for your interest in my RfA. It has been good working with on articles and other bits and pieces around WP. I'd appreciate your advice and help in the future, and hope that we might be able to do some collaborative editing, alongside mopping the decks. Thanks. --Gareth Hughes 18:25, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Linkspam and vandalising: Dada and Carton Tragedy
Sorry to bother again, but a blogger named Carton Tragedy is spamming Dada#Berlin (inserting a link to his article) and by his article itself. I deleted the link and asked for his article to be speedied. He was quick to revert so further reverts by me don't seem promising. --tickle me 09:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
hello there, terribly sorry to disturb you with this topic, but there is a new vote Talk:Weissenburg in Bayern on finally renaming it to Weißenburg in Bayern and since you have shown previous interested, I just thought I'd let you know what is going on... with kind regards. Gryffindor 22:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
The dumb me
i'm so so sorry to bother you yet again. i completely forgot earlier to include another set of maps with similar copyright problems. Could you help me delete them as well please?
So sorry for the trouble. i'll practise more caution next time... --Plastictv 11:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks so much, once again! --Plastictv 13:12, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Help with Deutsch Wikipedia
Hello. I'm contacting you because I need your help to publish something in the Deutsch Wikipedia, and I know nothing of German language.
What I want to publish is already translated to German so don't worry, it is something about Franz Kafka's The Trial. I already published it in English (see the section "Relations between The Trial and Crime and Punishment") and in Spanish (see ), and a friend translated it to German, but since I know nothing of that language I don't know where in the German article should I insert it (neither I could wikify it), so I'm asking your help please.
If you are too busy to help me don't worry, I'll search another Wikipedian that knows German, and sorry for bothering you.
If you can help me, please tell me how I can send you the article. Thank you very much, and again sorry for bothering. --Nicanor5 18:46, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Guten Tag! My bad on the blanking - when I stumbled upon the weird discussion on RC patrol, I did not research it as deeply as I should have (and had been doing elsewhere). My apologies for mucking up the page. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 08:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Ask for deletion
German Wikpedian requests
I wonder if you could help me out with something? I think I just met a German Wikipedian who is interested to contribute here. I don't understand the entire story, but I think he or she created an article which they think is GFDL compliant material and correctly cited, but is currently being marked as a copyright violation. It has something to do with the article Iraqi Kurdistan Front, and I presume that it was written by John E. Pike.
The user has posted on JJay's talk page, and my talk page. I've tried to put together as much of the information as I can for you below. Could you follow through with this Wikipedian's requests when you get a chance?
In the meantime, I'm going to give him or her a nice welcome to English Wikipedia, and I'll direct his inquiries to you for the moment. I hope you don't mind - when this came up, the first person here I thought to turn to for help was you. Thanks a lot for your help! --HappyCamper 18:17, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
- On JJay's talk page: (there's also some English there, and some links which might be useful for you)
- Die ganze zeit versuche ich JJay zur erklären das diese Artikel nur veröffentlichen darf wen der Autor des Artikel John E. Pike im Artikel stehet. ich habe gerade eine Beispiel gemacht in dem ich Iraqi Kurdistan Front veröffentlichte und gezeigt habe wo der Autor des Artikel stehen soll aber es wurde wieder gelöscht schau einfach rein. melat(UTC)
- On my talk page:
- Es ist schon eine der sich Deutsch Kenntnisse hat beim Wikipedia(Englisch) zur habe. Ich versuche die ganze zeit den JJay zur erklären das der Autor mehrere Artikeln John E. Pike die Erlaubnis erteilt wen seine Name im Artikel stet z.B
- Eine von diesen Artikeln ist Kurdistan Socialist Democratic Party. Die Erlaubnis erteilt er wen nach dem Artikel der Name des Autors steht in diesem fall ist es John E. Pike
- Also konkret gesagt nach dem Artikel sollte sein Name dort stehen
- See also author: John E. Pike
- Meine schlechte English ist nicht zur übersehen ich möchte deswegen mich entschuldigen Daher bitte ich dich Kontakt mit JJay zunehmen und ihn erklären was ich versucht habe. (Danke voraus) melat 17:36, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
- That's all the material I can find. Thanks again for your help! --HappyCamper 18:17, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
- You are right!! There is something that doesn't look quite right here...very very strange. I think I'm going to delete those redirects once everything is cleaned up. I'll be doing that right now.
- I'm planning on archiving my talk page tonight once I get around to it :-) I'm still trying to finish up some loose ends around here before I do so. --HappyCamper 21:23, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
- Ah, you're right. I forgot about that. I guess we can remove them later should the situation warrant it. --HappyCamper 21:31, 30 October 2005 (UTC)