User talk:Antandrus

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Greetings, welcome to my talk page. Please leave me new messages at the bottom of the page; click here to start a new section at the bottom. I usually notice messages soon. I like to keep threads all in one place, so if you left a message here I will respond to it here; if I left you a message on your talk page I likely am watching it and will respond there.

Demons watch over this page. Shiny ones. Wat Phra Kaew, Bangkok, Thailand, 2014. (Garuda, the mount of Lord Vishnu)
Haec dies quam fecit Dominus. Exultemus et laetemur in ea.

Talk page archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39



Hi there. Welcome to Wikipedia. Thanks for your note at Wikipedia:New user log.

I'm sure there are plenty of things you can contribute to here. You might want to check out List of classical music composers, List of musical topics, and Wikipedia:Requested articles/music. The last one, especially, has a lot of suggestions for articles that don't exist yet, but that someone would like to see.

Here are some links you might find useful:

You should also feel free to drop me a question on my talk page. I'll answer if I'm here.

Happy editing, Isomorphic 18:23, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Why did you remove my writing?[edit]

I am the author of the copy-pasted work from Moglen's wiki. Can you please stop deleting it, this is for a final assignment for his class. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaa2204 (talkcontribs) 15:32, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Because the text is not in compliance with cc-by-sa. Look at the disclaimer at the bottom of the page [1] -- it would have to be marked as 'authored by Eben Moglen' in order to be licensed under cc-by-sa -- else it is 'All material on this collaboration platform is the property of the contributing authors' which does not comply with our copyright policy. The disclaimer on the bottom of the page needs to be updated if you want to copy-paste without the 'Eben Moglen' attribution. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 16:17, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
As you can clearly see, this was written by a contributing author, me, not by Eben Moglen. It's not my website so I can't control the disclaimer but the work is my own, therefore I have every right to post it on the wikipedia page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaa2204 (talkcontribs) 16:24, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Hi Antandrus (and Jaa2204). I've left a note with further explanation at User talk:Jaa2204. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 16:55, 17 December 2014 (UTC)


That's my new Middle English word of the day. I imagine it's closely related to the modern "piss-ant," now that I think of it. Acroterion (talk) 01:33, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

I do believe you are right. Formic acid and all. It's a fun word. From Desert Solitaire: "Don't actually care for ants. Neurotic little pismires. Compared to ants the hairy scorpion is a beast of charm, dignity and tenderness." 01:35, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Happy Holidays[edit]

Piero della Francesca - Nativity - WGA17620.jpg

May you have very Happy Holidays, Antandrus...

and a New Year filled with peace, joy, and beautiful music!

Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 18:05, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! And the happiest of holidays to you and yours as well. Love that Piero della Francesca. Antandrus (talk) 22:04, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

L.A. event on Tuesday, January 20[edit]

Wik-Ed Women editing session (1/20, 6-10pm)

Dear fellow Wikipedian,

Please join us at an event this coming Tuesday: the third Wik-Ed Women editing session will take place on January 20 from 6pm to 10pm at the Los Angeles Contemporary Archive downtown. This series of informal get-togethers is designed to encourage Los Angeles women-in-the-arts (though all are welcome!) to contribute their expertise to Wikipedia, specifically expanding content about women artists. Please RSVP here if you plan to attend.

I hope to see you there! Calliopejen1 (talk) - via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:06, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Join our Facebook group here! To opt out of future mailings about LA meetups, please remove your name from this list.


That image you took of the gold characters in the image at top is very cool...nice job!--MONGO 01:59, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! It was an awesome trip. Did some performing, saw some cool things, took over a thousand pictures, got away from work. My girlfriend was there for work, I was visiting her. And hey, congratulations on the decade. Antandrus (talk) 02:02, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Very nice...sounds like you had a good time. Have you posted similar images online?--MONGO 02:33, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Not yet -- I was just starting to look at them this weekend for possible use on Wikipedia. Trying to find things without illustrations is increasingly difficult -- heck, a lot of the articles have gigantic galleries already. Antandrus (talk) 03:09, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

CITEVAR redux[edit]

Sigh! I do wish the College of Editors would assemble and decide on a uniform citation standard for all Wikipedia articles. In the meantime, thank you for your edit and comment at Symphony. The identical situation has arisen at Aquarius (opera), with perhaps even less justification.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:18, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome ... I think the problem is with the tag itself, the generic {{Citations}} tag:
Since it specifically demands inline citations rather than just, um, "citations". As its name suggests it would. Antandrus (talk) 16:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Ack, it's a redirect to "no footnotes". Which is a different thing. Can o' worms. Antandrus (talk) 16:16, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
I love Article of Improvement for the day. It's so great when the whole community can come together and demand a footnote that Beethoven's 9th includes a chorus. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 19:44, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Ha ha ha ha!!! I didn't notice that until you fixed it. I remember an argument some years ago in which a stubborn editor insisted that the key of Beethoven's Fifth needed a citation, since "C Minor" was not in the title. Antandrus (talk) 21:23, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Laugh if you must, but it was an awkward sentence to tag (my fault). The intention was not to demand proof that the symphony includes a chorus, but that there was no precedent for choirs in pieces titled "symphony". This was in conjunction with a "contradiction" tag, since the article had earlier discussed the sinfonie of such late-16th and early 17th-century composers as Gabrieli and Schütz. The problem has now been resolved by an edit from Michael Cuthbert, who probably has little idea of the edit history of the Symphony article, which has been long and at times bitter. Indeed, I am waiting with bated breath for one particular editor to discover that the sentence he fought tooth and claw to retain in the lede has just been blithely snatched away (not a moment too soon as far as I am concerned, but opinions will differ).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:54, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Apologies, Jerome -- though we sometimes differ on the amount of citation we find necessary, you certainly have good reasons for all of them, and indeed the part about calling using a chorus unprecedented needed a context to have it make sense. As far as the other edits, people can revert; I tend not to get in fights about such things. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 07:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

LA edit-a-thons on February 14, 17, and 21[edit]

Redondo Loves Wikipedia (2/14), Wik-Ed Women (2/17), and Unforgetting LA at the Getty (2/21)!
Getty Museum (3334818780).jpg

Dear fellow Wikipedian,

The LA Wikipedia community has three events in mid-February -- please consider attending!

First, we have a Valentine's Day edit-a-thon appropriately named Redondo Loves Wikipedia, which will take place at the Redondo Beach Public Library from 10am to 1pm on Saturday, February 14. Join library staff, the Redondo Beach Historical Society, and others to help improve Wikipedia's coverage of Redondo Beach!

Second, we have a Wik-Ed Women editing session on Tuesday, February 17 from 6pm to 10pm at the Los Angeles Contemporary Archive downtown. This series of informal get-togethers is designed to encourage Los Angeles women-in-the-arts (though all are welcome!) to contribute their expertise to Wikipedia, specifically expanding content about women artists.

Third, we have an Unforgetting LA event put on by East of Borneo in collaboration with the Getty Research Institute. Come help improve Wikipedia's coverage of LA design and architecture, and have an awesome free day at the museum -- parking will be validated for edit-a-thon participants! If you'd like to use particular books from GRI's great collection, be sure to email before 2/13 (instructions at event page).

And be sure to check out our main meetup page, because we already have three SoCal events scheduled for early March!

I hope to see you there! Calliopejen1 (talk) - via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:58, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Join our Facebook group here! To opt out of future mailings about LA meetups, please remove your name from this list.

More block evasion[edit]

You blocked an IP sock of a blocked user, the same user apparently uses more IPs doing exactly the same edits [2].Jeppiz (talk) 00:16, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

My spidey-sense says this isn't a new user. No complaint about the block, just immediate sockpuppeting. Antandrus (talk) 00:36, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

My edits[edit]

I edited the page Antonio Vivaldi by correcting typos and adding to intro of the page. What I added was to the statement "Composed many instrumental concertos for violin and a variety of other instruments" I added "Composed over Five hundred instrumental concertos" You then messaged me saying that you removed my edits and saying that they appeared to be vandalism. Why do you consider this as vandalism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antonio Bononcini (talkcontribs) 19:31, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Your edit summary for your last edit was "I added capitalization and punctuation mistakes" -- which you did. You added mistakes. Your previous edits are equally problematic: "Fixed a typo" did no such thing, but added the WP:PEACOCK words and opinion "the Greatest Italian Baroque composer and ..." And then there are bunch more. What are you doing? Antandrus (talk) 21:42, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I corrected typos and my comments as "Greatest Italian baroque composer" are opinions as are all the comments on his music, the page says "one of the greatest baroque composers"you didn't flag whoever that was for adding opinions. Neither did you flag the person who wrote "he is recognized as one of the greatest Baroque composers" thats an opinion as well what is wrong with adding such opinions? I just added facts and corrected typos for example the page said "employed from 1703 to 1715 and from 1723 to 1740" to which I added "employed from 1703 to 1715 and from 1723 to 1740 a total of forty years". Is that vandalism? Did I put in incorrect dates? No. Did I delete previous work? No. Did I add any incorrect statements? No. Did I delete anything? No. The words I added were just descriptions like "He is known mainly for composing many instrumental concertos" I added "He is known mainly for composing over five hundred instrumental concertos" which is more descriptive and is a fact and I believe this was better than the original. I would not consider anything I added as vandalism. What are YOU doing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antonio Bononcini (talkcontribs) 23:39, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Stop being obtuse. Why did you deliberately add mistakes with the edit summary of "I added capitalization and punctuation mistakes". Answer my question. Antandrus (talk) 23:53, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

WHAT spelling mistakes did I add? If I wrote "I added capitalization and punctuation misteaks." It was an accident but I did not add any spelling misteaks to the page so WHY did you send me a warning about vandalization. Or was it just because I gave an incorrect description of my edits? That hardly constitutes vandalization. If I wanted to vandalize I would have done it by now, or don't you think so. I have vandalized nothing you have no basis for deleting my edits and I use my previous rebuttles as my arguments. Also capitalizing the word "Greatest" as I did was not a spelling error as in this instance it was used as a title, so it's not a spelling error. I added no spelling or punctuation mistakes, so what did I vandalize? Did delete dates? No. Add incorrect dates? No. Did I erase anything? No. What did I do which constitiutes vandalizm. The most I did if anything that would be debatable is incorrectly describe my edits but other than that I ask again, what did I vandalize? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antonio Bononcini (talkcontribs) 07:58, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

There are lots of differences of opinion and/or misunderstandings at Wikipedia. I replaced the message with a welcome in the hope that there will no longer be a need to discuss the past. You might check that other message on your talk page about WP:SIGN. Also, please make sure your edit summaries match the edits. Johnuniq (talk) 08:40, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you ;D — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antonio Bononcini (talkcontribs) 18:14, 4 March 2015 (UTC)


Hi Antandrus! Thank you for welcoming all of the newbies who participated in the Art+Feminism Edit-A-Thon at the University of California, Santa Barbara yesterday. It was a very successful event! Arthistorygrrl (talk) 23:16, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome! I was watching over it as it unfolded (in case you needed any administrative help -- but you didn't need any). I'm quite nearby, and just tickled that there was a Wiki-event in Santa Barbara. Congratulations on all the great work, and thank you for organizing it! Hey, did it look like any of them were interested in continuing? That's the big issue, if we're going to make progress on closing the gender gap. I'd love it if some were enthused enough to want to write and edit more. All the best -- Antandrus (talk) 01:17, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

A coffee for your thoughts[edit]

Cup-o-coffee-simple.svg I had a great time reading your observations on Wikipedia. And the nearer to the end, the better they were. Iry-Hor (talk) 21:19, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! I'm always glad when someone enjoys them ... they were fun to write. Maybe more coming. :) All the best, Antandrus (talk) 22:23, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

LA edit-a-thons on March 18 (tomorrow!) and 28[edit]

Wadewitz memorial edit-a-thon (3/18), Redondo Loves Wikipedia (3/28)
Adrianne Wadewitz-6727.jpg

Dear fellow Wikipedian,

The LA Wikipedia community has two events in this second half of March -- please consider attending!

First, there is a memorial edit-a-thon in honor of the prolific LA Wikipedian Adrianne Wadewitz, which is being held downtown on March 18 (tomorrow!) from noon to 8pm as a part of the American Society for Eighteenth-Century Studies' annual conference. Please drop by to contribute your own work or teach other users how to write for Wikipedia.

Second, there will be an event at the Redondo Beach Public Library (following up on last month's session), in collaboration with the Redondo Beach Historical Society. Please join us from 10am to noon on Saturday, March 28 at the main branch of the Redondo Beach Public Library!

I hope to see you there! Calliopejen1 (talk) - via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:39, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Join our Facebook group here! To opt out of future mailings about LA meetups, please remove your name from this list.

Tim Page -- grateful for your efforts toward balance[edit]

Thanks so much for your seriousness. I thought that my full letter to Wikipedia might be helpful.

My name is Tim Page and I am the author or editor of more than 20 books. I worked at the New York Times, Newsday and finally the Washington Post, where I won the Pulitzer Prize for Criticism in 1997. I am currently a full professor in two departments at the University of Southern California.

And yet, due to the repeated intrusions of two demonstrably hostile editors of my page, one would think that all I've done in a career that stretches back almost 50 years, is beat up on all young prodigies and sass back to the late Washington D.C. mayor Marion Barry.

I would suggest that these two editors -- SSilvers and especially SchroCat -- have determined to give undue weight to two minor events in my career, with the specific intent of distorting my career

In the first instance, SSilvers (who is the editor of all the pages devoted to the prodigy Jackie Evancho) has been trying to turn me into a kiddie-stomper for a single article I wrote about Ms. Evancho in December 2011. OK, it was a negative article but I think a fair reader would glean that it was mostly about the music business and the way it eats its young -- a warning against premature exposure. Others may differ, of course, but to turn this one article (buttressed with a short paragraph in a 2000-word reflection on the highs and lows of a career in music criticism) into some kind of personal creed is preposterous. If somebody were to write a 3000 word piece on my work, it might have a place, but I've written hundreds of very positive reviews of young artists and to make this the centerpiece of my career is a clear case of original research -- and shoddy research at that.

I'm always uncomfortable touching up my Wikipedia page but I've done it on a couple of occasions, beginning when somebody suggested I wrote a book called "Descent into Madness: My Struggle with Homosexuality" back in October of 2008. (The fact is that I am a straight man, divorced twice, with three children and to refer to my Asperger Syndrome as "madness" is clearly slander.) And so, in 2012, I felt I needed to defend my work and add the names of some of the artists I had nurtured when they were very young: I included Hilary Hahn, Evgeny Kissin, and Midori (all teenaged when I first reviewed them -- indeed, I wrote the very first major profile of the last of these). There was some back and forth editorial discussion but we finally came out with what seemed a fair piece -- hardly fawning but with no errors of distortions of fact.

As such, it came as a surprise when I visited the page a month or two back and found that SSilvers had restored the material about Evancho, including my distinctly grotesque image of her onstage persona that I chose deliberately to make a point about what Evancho's handlers were doing to a talented child. At the same time, all the other prodigies I had supported were removed from the piece, leaving the impression that my dearest wish was to stomp all over child stars. Add to this the fact that SSilvers had called me a "thoughtless, nasty man" in talk pages on Wikipedia. As a journalist, I would recuse myself from writing about anybody I disliked so much, and to simply stick this in as the longest paragraph of my biography was clearly malicious.

I did my best to correct matters and though I'd found an ally in SchroCat who removed the corrections and wrote a frosty note, but DID explain the Wiki policy on sourcing. He said he neither knew nor cared who had written the Evancho restoration (this is beginning to sound like Tudor politics!) and said he had no time to make the corrections himself, but seemed a decent enough person. So I learned how to put the references into the piece, spending most of an afternoon on this and not doing a terribly good job on it but hoping that we had finally managed a fair appraisal.

He took out almost all of the corrections (some of the newspapers are no longer allowing early work to be presented without cost) and then added a long paragraph about an unfortunate blow-up I had with the late Marion Barry in 2007. Talk about undue weight! Barry was a controversial man with many supporters and just as many detractors -- I had been bullied by his staff when I asked them to take my address off their mailing list, and I overreacted, after which I apologized. Bingo -- end of story, until SchroCat decided to bring it up seven years later. If you wanted to mention everybody who has ever written negatively about Marion Barry, you'd have to expand your bandwidth -- and now this is the longest paragraph in my biography! Moreover, my leave of absence with the Post had been set up LONG before this took place.

Look -- I love Wikipedia. It's one of the great joys of on-line life. I go to it at least two or three times a day. But this sort of attack really isn't cricket. I'm not going to compare it to the Siegenthaler affair -- there is at least some truth in what these editors have chosen to glorify. But it's a little like a bio of Roman Polanski that talks mostly about his long-ago rape allegation and ignores the fact that he made "Chinatown."

I'm embarrassed to have to complain, but the world now takes Wikipedia very seriously and I'd rather have nothing at all than this sort of nastiness, which is absolutely unrepresentative of my person and my work. I'm a tough guy to write about -- one needs to be conversant in film ("a Day With Timmy Page"), music (my work in criticism, radio and record production), literature (I restored the novelist Dawn Powell to public attention), autism (I wrote about my struggles with Asperger Syndrome in "Parallel Play") and education to get a glimpse of my activity. I don't know if you have anybody who can do that -- maybe you should just remove me from the library. But I hope you will take this seriously, as I feel mangled by a huge and powerful organization that I mostly love and respect.


Tim Page

Thanks so much for your decency. I never would have even posted except that what these people wrote was so charged with UNDUE WEIGHT and ORIGINAL RESEARCH. SchroCat said that he'd never had anything to do with SSilvers, not realizing that this sort of material carries a history. Poor guy -- I wish him well, but will not continue to tolerate his UNDUE emphasis on my blowup at Barry without a long examination of my prose and aesthetics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 03:31, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Resurrection of Southern California Task Force[edit]

After moving from Los Angeles County to Kern County to San Luis Obispo County, I am finally realizing that there is life in California outside of L.A. and San Francisco, where I lived and grew up. Oh, I have also lived in San Diego, San Bernardino, San Joaquin, Yolo and Sacramento counties, and I earned my undergraduate degree in Riverside County. I am trying to breathe life into the Southern California Task Force, and I hope you will join me. Could you visit our list of participants at the other end of this link and update your description of what you are interested in doing for us, assuming that you still want to be in the mix, that is.

In recompense, I will buy you a drink during the Wikipedia Week I am planning for Morro Bay on the Central Coast in July. Yours sincerely, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 18:07, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Cool! -- thanks for trying to wake up the project. I just updated my description. Antandrus (talk) 19:08, 3 May 2015 (UTC)


Hi Antandrus. May I first of all thank you for all your useful creations and contributions to music biographies on Wikipedia. I see that you have also been one of the more active editors on Sibelius. You may have noticed that 2015 is the 150th anniversary of his birth with concerts and celebrations centred around 8 December. While I understand you are not too keen in participating directly in upgrades to GA or FA, I think you might be interested in improving the general quality of the article, not only by adding content but in this particular case by improving referencing and sourcing. I think it would be great if Wikipedia could contribute to the composer's international recognition in December. If you are interested, I could perhaps call on your assistance in addressing more specific issues.--Ipigott (talk) 14:31, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Ipigott. Yes actually I would be interested -- I took a quick look at your copyedit this morning and liked what I saw; I think the article could be headed toward GA/FA with a little push from some people familiar with the topic. (As an aside I wrote those comments about GA/FA many years ago; I need to revise my userspace, as some of my opinions have changed.) We have some time, as December is a ways off, but I like the idea of getting the article up to standard by the 150th year milestone. By the way thank you for your edits to Solvang, California -- a town quite close to where I live. It's a curious place. Let me know if you never need a photograph of something there. All the best -- Antandrus (talk) 22:55, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
That's really good news! I thought it might be a good idea to work on Sibelius now that I have gained experience in trying to bring the article on Carl Nielsen, his Danish counterpart, up to standard. In my opinion, the Sibelius article needs far better sourcing (at the moment it seems to rely mainly on one published biography), better coverage of his music and musical style, and more information on the concerts and events to be held for his anniversary. I read Swedish (but not Finnish) and can no doubt help with some of the sources in that language. Maybe we should address these and any other problems on the article's talk page (I'll add something) and initially go for GA over the next few weeks. Smerus and Tim riley have been extremely helpful on the Nielsen article and may like to help out here too. Last but not least, I hope the highly experienced Dr. Blofeld will offer general advice and assistance as we go forward. As for Solvang, I visited the place a few years ago with my Danish wife and developed the article with the assistance of a local historian. I know California quite well as for many years I had professional relationships with a small firm in La Jolla.--Ipigott (talk) 09:17, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Let's get Nielsen out of the way first and we can look at that next after it is TFA (hopefully).♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:18, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld: Glad to hear you're interested. Nielsen's been static for the past two or three days so we can just as well start preparing for Sibelius which still has a long, long way to go. But we should probably continue on the talk page.--Ipigott (talk) 13:47, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Now that Nielsen has been promoted to FA, I'll be looking in more detail at Sibelius over the next few days. If you have any suggestions on how the article could be improved, Antandrus, it might be useful to let me know, maybe on the Jean Sibelius talk page.--Ipigott (talk) 16:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Dana Fork[edit]

Greetings Antandrus,

I spotted your name in association with a picture titled 'DanaFork.jpg'. I found it in the Sierra Nevada page. I assume you took the photo but don't really know. If so and with your approval, I'd like to use that photo on my Facebook page to temporarily entertain and amaze my friends in the bread and circus crowd. By what means would you prefer to receive credit?

sam — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:05, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Greetings -- go right ahead! If you'd like to give credit, say "Wikipedia user Antandrus, from Wikimedia Commons" or something. I took the picture myself when I was there in July 2008. Hiking was wonderful that year. :) Antandrus (talk) 21:44, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

5th Annual Wiknic[edit]

5th Annual Wiknic (Saturday, July 11, 2015, ~9:30am-4pm)
BBQ - 001.jpg

Dear fellow Wikipedian,

You are cordinally invited to the fifth annual Los Angeles Wiknic!

The Wiknic is a part of the nationwide Great American Wiknic. We'll be grilling, getting to know each other better, and building the L.A. Wikipedia community! The event is tentatively planned for Pan-Pacific Park (map) and will be held on Saturday, July 11, 2014 from 9:30am to 4pm or so. Please RSVP and volunteer to bring food or drinks if possible!

I hope to see you there! Howcheng (talk) - via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:40, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Join our Facebook group here! To opt out of future mailings about LA meetups, please remove your name from this list.

perché si questo tipo di[edit]

Why you allow this type of editors on wikipedia? 2001:590:1405:1E9:FC77:E1F9:D3AF:B8C4 (talk) 02:49, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

It appears you are following someone around and reverting them without explanation. If you have a problem with their edits, please use the article talk page, or at a bare minimum, explain in the edit summary. To any other eyes, what you are doing is disruptive. Antandrus (talk) 02:51, 22 June 2015 (UTC)


Thank you for your assistance but this dude has thousands of shadow clones. You may block one IP but he will create 50 more. Is a range block possible? AcidSnow (talk) 03:03, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

While you were posting, I was writing you a message. :) To 2001:590, would you please just explain what the heck you are trying to do, and why you are not engaging on talk pages? Antandrus (talk) 03:05, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! I have replied on my talk page. AcidSnow (talk) 03:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Hand of friendship[edit]

Dear User:Antandrus, I need some help. I am an editor at Wikipedia. I create articles and also like to edit other articles. However, I want to develop my skills further because I feel there are a lot of things I am unable to understand but for that I require the guidance of someone who is experienced in Wikipedia. Is there any way I can email you?

Pixarh (talk) 15:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Pixarh, welcome! Yes of course. My email link on the left works.  :) Let me know if I can help. In general, if you are new, I recommend against starting by writing an article from scratch -- best to edit existing articles for a while (I say this because I looked at your talk page and noticed you tried to write a new article on a topic for which we already had one). All the best -- Antandrus (talk) 23:16, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you ! :) But I am unable to see the link to email you. Neither at the left nor anywhere on this page.:( Yes I have had this one issue and I plan to move on rather than defending. There is so much to learn here at Wikipedia and I am very eager and excited about it. Pixarh (talk) 19:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi again -- the link is under 'tools' (haven't verified that under all 'preferences' settings). Feel free to write about it here though -- my page is, as of today, on 322 watchlists, so a lot of other experienced editors will likely see your note and may be inclined to give you unbiased advice as well. But you can email me if you like. Antandrus (talk) 15:56, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Wikinic rescheduled[edit]

5th Annual Wiknic rescheduled to Saturday, July 25, 2015, ~9:30am-4pm
LA Wiknic 2011 Group Photo.jpg

Due to a conflict with the Redondo Loves Wikipedia edit-a-thon, the fifth annual Los Angeles Wiknic has been rescheduled. As before, the location will be at Pan-Pacific Park (map) and will be held on Saturday, July 25, 2015 from 9:30am to 4pm or so. Please RSVP and volunteer to bring food or drinks if possible!

I hope to see you there! howcheng {chat} - via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:28, 7 July 2015 (UTC) Join our Facebook group here! To opt out of future mailings about LA meetups, please remove your name from this list.

The Wikipedia Library needs you![edit]

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Send on behalf of The Wikipedia Library using MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:31, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


Hi Antandrus. I keep meaning to invite you for a flight or something, so before I forget again here it is. :) We recently flew along the coast from Pescadero to Oceano, and I've been whittling away at posting on our blog about it. When I got to Esalen in that process it seemed a good idea to offer a few pix to what had been a wall of text. Nudged by an angry citations note that had been plastered beneath a neutral one at the top, I also did some editing and added more citations. Now in the Talk for the page there's a suggestion (or is it a demand?) to eliminate the Criticism section I naively added. I'm a bit stumped on how to integrate the criticisms so they flow into the article, and wonder if you might have any suggestions. I notice that there have been some local and regional Wiki events, and am a bit bummed to have missed them. Is there a way to permanently Watch this page or some other way of getting advance notification on events in SB? Jw4nvc (talk) 02:13, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Jw4nvc. I'm a frequent visitor chez Antandrus. If you want to receive the notices, add a link to User talk:Jw4nvc at Wikipedia:Meetup/LA/Invites. You might also want to add Category:Wikipedians in Southern California to the bottom of your user page. If you want to add Antandrus's talk page to your watchlist, click on the tab at the top of this page with the star (Vector skin - page not in the watchlist.png) on it . The star will turn blue (Vector skin - page in the watchlist.png) to show it's now on your watch list. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 09:57, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Voceditenore, and hi John! Yes, I took a quick look at the article and what it is most obviously missing is a "cultural influence and legacy" section, where criticisms would go. Wikipedia has been getting rid of "criticism" sections for the reasons given in the template -- five or eight years ago they were common, and you can still find a lot of them, but it's usually smoother to weave that all in to the overall fabric. With Esalen it's screamingly obvious this material needs to be covered, so thank you for adding it! I did laugh out loud at the 1990 graffiti. And by all means let's go flying soon. :) Antandrus (talk) 14:06, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Voceditenore and Antandrus for the pointers. I got busy with other stuff for a few days, and glad to now have a few minutes for followup. I guess in terms of SoCA Category, I'm much more interested in any gathering here in the SB area but maybe there are none. I'll email about going flying. For the Esalen article, maybe I'll try changing Criticism to Cultural... and see what happens.

A barnstar for you![edit]

Barnstar of Diligence Hires.png The Barnstar of Diligence
For having such a nice userpage! The Pancake of Heaven! (talk) 13:31, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Unwanted space in signature?[edit]

Hi, Antandrus. I noticed in your user signature, "[[User:Antandrus|Antandrus ]]" appears. Is that space intentional over "[[User:Antandrus|Antandrus]]"? It makes a undesirable difference that shows up in browsers that do text wrapping in the text-editing area. Jason Quinn (talk) 06:58, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Hm, never noticed. I doubt I've changed it in the last ten years. I think, but am not certain, that at one time the software added the extra space, and I probably just copied it into preferences. I changed it to see how it renders: Antandrus (talk) 14:27, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

On the precise description of Poe and Others[edit]

I've seen no persuasive reasons (or any at all) why my corrections to the Poe article should have been reverted to something imprecise. As I’ve stated previously, the terms “writer” and “author” are each ambiguous. They are general terms, nonspecific, and hence imprecise. Note: the Oxford English Dictionary’s (OED) definition of writer:

1.a. A person who can write; one who practises or performs writing; occasionally, one who writes in a specified manner

and the OED’s definition of author is even broader:

1. The person who originates or gives existence to anything

It’s easy to see that “writer” is more a specific description than “author,” since an “author” could be the originator of a law or an even idea, while a “writer originates something in writing.

Now, we call a “writer” or “author” who writes poems a poet, as we do Poe. We call a “writer” or “author” who writes literary criticism a critic, as we do Poe. We call a “writer” or “author” who writes plays a playwright. We call a “writer” or “author” who writes essays an essayist. We call a “writer” or “author” who writes novels a novelist. Likewise, it only make sense that, for the sake of precision, we call a “writer” or “author” who writes short stories a short story writer.

Further, the short stories Poe wrote are often referred to as tales; and tales, like fables and parables are each a different type, or subset, if you will, of short story.

JoePeschel (talk) 03:02, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

That may well be true, but Wikipedia works on a WP:CONSENSUS model, and when you revert multiple editors, insisting that you are right and they all are wrong, that is called "edit warring". Place make your case on the article talk page; I'm agnostic on the content issue (as I must be, since I am intervening as an administrator). Since I notice you also commented on the user talk page of another editor, I'll also mention that it's much better to keep content discussion on the article talk page to prevent fragmentation, and make it easier for third parties to follow the thread. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 03:23, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

This Thursday: Women in Architecture edit-a-thon @ Getty Center[edit]

You are invited to join the Women in Architecture edit-a-thon @ Getty Center in LA on October 15! (drop-in any time, 10am-4pm)--Pharos (talk) 18:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

L'Amfiparnaso (Orazio Vecchi)[edit]

Hello, thank you for reaching out to me and helping me. I am going to continue to flesh out this page. I have many references and am conducting the piece this spring. I was shocked there wasn't an article here already. My goal is to really flesh it out, however, I have never created a page on wikipedia. Please go ahead and help if you have the time! :) CanYouHandelThat (talk) 04:02, 4 November 2015 (UTC)CanYouHandelThat

ArbCom elections are now open![edit]

You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:12, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Rocky Marciano vandal[edit]

Two new ones that are not yet blocked: User:Getantandrusasap User:Antbrainsmasher Meters (talk) 20:07, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, something strange about those user accounts. What's a simple Wikipedia account? Access their contributions here:
Hi Meters -- thanks. I am so sick of that guy. He's been in jail twice this year, most recently for "harassment by electronic means" -- seems like he wants to go back there. Here, on Wikipedia, we just remove his rubbish, and block his accounts and ranges. I blocked his T-Mobile IP ranges here yesterday mid-day. Periodically I run a script that finds all his spam on the various Wikimedia projects, and then I delete what I find. Cheers, and thanks for helping me keep track. (Oh, a "Simple" account is one he registered there.) Antandrus (talk) 21:04, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Oh, one other thing: sometimes an account is globally blocked, e.g. this one. I have the stewards and some others helping me. Antandrus (talk) 21:16, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Bloody persistent... and a new trick this time. Should I just continue to quietly blank his stuff or pass the new accounts on to you (or someone else if you prefer)? Meters (talk) 23:38, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
If you spot new ones feel free to let me know -- I'll block them for you. He's persistent, but also about as smart as a bucket of cat litter, so keeping track of him isn't hard. If you want you can just list them on your page, maybe with a date for each, since I have it watchlisted. :) Antandrus (talk) 02:12, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Sure, if you are watching my spammer page I'll just keep listing any new ones that are not yet blocked there. I have to agree with your assessment of this guy. Meters (talk) 05:05, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

User page Lay-out[edit]

Hello Atandrus,

I have a question. Would it be okay with you if I used the lay-out of your user page? I really like the way you organized it. Kind regards, a new member FrozenPistachio (talk) 12:25, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi there -- fine with me -- it was originally designed by an editor who has left the project. She designed a lot of user pages for people. Welcome to Wikipedia.  :) Antandrus (talk) 15:09, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Marciano spammer[edit]

Man you're quick! You had him blocked before I even saved his username and diff for you. Meters (talk) 22:26, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Antandrus (talk) 00:44, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Darius socks[edit]

Thanks. I should have blocked them yesterday when I determmined they were the same. Could be a school but then it's obvious meatpuppetry. Doug Weller (talk) 17:07, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome -- I think it's one person, judging by behavior and style. I wish we got paid per sock block. :) Antandrus (talk) 17:33, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Trying it out![edit]

Sorry was going to revert back to the old pages. I wasn't seeing the changes on the webpage. Just started today. I wasn't aware of the Sandbox option. Thank you

Though I do think the "The future will partly be shaped by the need for vision, leadership, and community support of local news and journalism. The future will be shaped by what citizens and consumers choose. The decline of well paid journalism and reliable news sources could level off if enough citizens choose to support it. Newspapers have a very important role to play, by holding governments to account, trying to stop corruption, and being an important contribution to democratic free speech. The future is not inevitable or predetermined." should be rewritten.

It seems to be partially an opinion (though valid) but not cited...

OK -- please use an WP:EDITSUMMARY next time -- that way the people patrolling pages will know what you're doing is in good faith. Section blanking is one of the commonest kinds of vandalism, and you can see it any time you click on "recent changes". Thanks -- Antandrus (talk) 23:39, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Buon Natale[edit]

GFerrari Adorazione pastori VC (detail).jpg

May you have very Happy Holidays, Antandrus,

and a New Year filled with peace, joy, and beautiful music!

Best wishes from one old-timer to another, Voceditenore (talk) 19:14, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Voceditenore -- happiest of holidays to you and yours as well! :) Antandrus (talk) 19:25, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Seasons greetings to you too, Antandrus. --Folantin (talk) 19:49, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! Happy Christmas, solstice, etc. to you as well. May we all be free of the plagues of Muzak carols and parking lot dings. For myself, I'm actually hoping to do some writing, if I actually can take a break from "work". Antandrus (talk) 21:23, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Happy Holidays, Antandrus. Evancahill (talk) 00:45, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, and you too! :) Antandrus (talk) 00:53, 24 December 2015 (UTC)


Hi Antandrus, I edited an article on the Dunning-Kruger effect since one of the assertions ascribed to a study is actually not in the original article. This is what is currently on the page - Their research also suggests corollaries: highly skilled individuals may underestimate their relative competence, they may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others, and they may incorrectly suppose that their competence in a particular field extends to other fields in which they are less competent.[1]

However, I reviewed the original article and they do not collect data on or discuss competence extending to other fields. The edit I made was to remove "and they may incorrectly suppose that their competence in a particular field extends to other fields in which they are less competent". This is the first time I am editing a page so I did not know where to leave a comment to justify why I made the edit. But this edit makes the summary accurate.

Thanks Anu — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:100E:302:750C:8758:3CC9:A163 (talk) 23:06, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi Anu -- yes, I see your edit was in good faith; no worries. It's a good idea always to use an WP:EDITSUMMARY, particularly when removing content, because otherwise we have no idea what your intent was. (Random content removal is one of the two or three commonest types of vandalism on Wikipedia -- with no edit summary, patrollers are likely to revert all such edits.) Click on the WP:EDITSUMMARY link to learn where to leave the reason for your edit, and please continue to edit.  :) All the best, Antandrus (talk) 00:37, 30 December 2015 (UTC)


You're so fast I experienced redshift! Bishonen | talk 21:35, 30 December 2015 (UTC).

Fast reflexes developed batting away bloodthirsty beasts in the wilds of Burbank. A happy new year to you and your team of distinguished attendants! Antandrus (talk) 22:24, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Antandrus![edit]

Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Happy New Year 2016}} to send this message

. Thank you, Poepkop! Happy new year to you too. Antandrus (talk) 14:36, 1 January 2016 (UTC)


Can you block him/her? (Also revert edit as well). He/she involved edit warring or genre warrior. (talk) 16:27, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

It's not completely obvious to me - you might want to ask someone familiar with that kind of music; I can't tell if that's vandalism or not. The edit I looked at was sourced. When I look at the sockpuppet case referenced on that user's talk page and match IPs, this one is Telecom Italia and the others are in the UK. So I'm not sufficiently sure. User:Bbb23, you've dealt with this one -- does this look familiar to you? Antandrus (talk) 16:41, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
I already responded to another IP about this on my Talk page. I assume it's the same person. You can see my response there. I'm curious who the person behind the IPs reporting this is.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:04, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
Ah, thank you, missed that. Antandrus (talk) 18:08, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Invitation to a virtual editathon on Women in Music[edit]

Women in Music
Lyon Mosaïque de la muse Euterpe de la salle Rameau.jpg
Love Heart KammaRahbek.SVG
  • 10 to 31 January 2016
  • Please join us in the worldwide virtual edit-a-thon hosted by Women in Red.

--Ipigott (talk) 16:15, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[edit] is a confirmed proxy. Could you consider extending your block to 'indeff'? --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:47, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 23:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

It's been many moons.[edit]

Hey, I happened to stroll by for the first time in years and I saw the last edit summary you used on your talk page and it brought up happy memories of vandal and troll hunting. Awesome to see you are still kicking ass on here after all these years friend. I raise a glass to you. KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 22:41, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Hey, greetings, and welcome back, even if only for a moment! Yeah, I go from inactive to active - recently I've been back to almost, but not quite, pre-2011 levels. Trying to do some writing again, and a little bit of adminning as needed. Feel free to pick up a flamethrower/AR-15 errr, mop, and join in the fun! Face-smile.svg All the best, Antandrus (talk) 22:50, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Reverting vandalism[edit]

Hi, Antandrus! I saw that you reverted vandalism on Telepathy - thanks for doing that! However, you forgot to leave a warning on the user's talk page. No worries, I went ahead and did that for you. Just wanted to let you know. Cheers, happy editing :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 23:55, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. Face-smile.svg I've been doing this for almost twelve years. Sometimes I leave a warning, sometimes not. It depends on my estimation of whether or not a warning would be useful. In the case of a newly registered account (like that one), I probably should have. If it's nasty vandalism, sometimes I block the troublemaker right away. With IP editors who are schoolkids, I often don't bother; we probably don't want them editing anyway. There are times I can tell it is a new user experimenting who has potential, and in those cases I leave a personalized one rather than a template. Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 00:55, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
You have a great userpage, by the way! Lots of good stuff on it. Good to bump into you. :) Antandrus (talk) 00:58, 15 February 2016 (UTC)


So sorry my bad, my friend took my phone and decided to screw around a bit. Thanks for bringing this to my attention! Jordanacrlee1 (talk) 15:27, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

No problem. Yeah I was surprised because your other edits are not vandalism. Good editors rarely become vandals but we see people go the other way all the time, i.e. start by vandalizing/messing around but then begin contributing usefully as they find out how satisfying it can be. Antandrus (talk) 16:17, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Eco adjust[edit]

Was the adjustment to the quote because it looks better that way or was the previous attribution incorrect?

I do think that WP should have changed to front page to that quote in his honor. Or in some way make it part of their official motto. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 00:13, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

The previous attribution was correct, -- for some reason the wording just bothered me. (Its position within the essay didn't seem to enhance the force of the quote.) Yes, I love that quote! Stumbled on it quite by accident, when I picked up a copy of Serendipities way back whenever that was, 2005 or so. The whole collection is quite good. He was an inspiring writer. Miss Italo Calvino too ... Antandrus (talk) 02:35, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
Yes, and William Weaver, the masterful translator of both. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 04:03, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
As an aside, did you notice who is editing? Antandrus (talk) 02:36, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
Had totally missed that. Interesting! -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 04:03, 25 February 2016 (UTC)


Thank you for the block here [5]. My apologies for the snarky edit summaries while issuing warnings--just blowing off some tired steam, not directed at anyone. Cheers, 2601:188:0:ABE6:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 17:10, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

No worries -- I also blocked the other malefactor you tagged at AIV (I don't keep an eye on AIV; Bach was on my watchlist, then I checked to see if you had been having trouble with other vandals). Thanks for your help! Antandrus (talk) 18:06, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Gioachino Rossini[edit]

Hey there, Antandrus.

I noticed you reversed the infobox I put on Gioachino Rossini's page in October.

Did I do anything wrong in terms of the infobox? (talk) 15:29, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Greetings -- yes, this edit. There is a general consensus at the Composers Wikiproject not to add infoboxes without first getting consensus at the talk page. The reasons have been discussed at length in the archives (for example, the infobox pulls out tiny bits from the biography and makes them seem overly significant just by their position in an eye-catching place at the top of the article). That said, there is a minimalist infobox going around (see the example at Giuseppe Verdi) that might be getting a consensus by default. The "infobox debate" has been long and bloody, has seriously harmed relationships between editors in this subject area, and any sort of compromise that might put it to an end has my blessing. My own policy is only to remove the overly detailed kind, or those that present misleading information, and then never more than once or against consensus. Antandrus (talk) 15:55, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

My bad.

So, no one should add an infobox to the Gioachino Rossini page?

If so, I won't do it again.

I didn't see the note to not put an infobox there when I edited it.

It seems as if infoboxes shouldn't even be on Wikipedia in the first place if it damages relationships.

Also, I don't really understand some of the message. No insults intended.

What do you mean, "remove the overly detailed kind?"

Should the minimalist infobox be stopped? (talk) 17:45, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

You didn't do anything wrong -- our policies are byzantine, our consensus conventions buried in talk page archives, our arguments a tangle of links and acronyms and references to arguments even more obscure, and lost in the dark backward and abysm of time. In my opinion (and this is mine alone) the detailed "infobox person" doesn't work so well in composer articles, but the "minimalist" infobox seems ok. I no longer remove them, preferring to follow a consensus that seems to be emerging, and being by nature a person who would rather build than burn, be it a bridge or a relationship. There are bigger issues here, including the very survival of Wikipedia, since the infighting in the community is one of its greatest threats. Peace, Antandrus (talk) 02:06, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Peace, more peace. I added a minimalist infobox (aka PDbox, identibox) to Pierre Boulez (where I found no "first seek consensus"-note) and was reverted, but entertain a good relationship to the reverter. I thought we needed none of the discussion on the Boulez talk (may he rest in peace) and on WT:COMPOSERS, but what if it makes some people feel good? - My model is the short infobox for Beethoven, installed after community consensus on the talk. - Antandrus, I understand it's your anniversary? Stay wise and full of music, lalala laaa ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:50, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Wik-Ed Women Session #5[edit]

Wik-Ed Women Session #5
We Can Edit.jpg

Dear fellow Wikipedian,

I would like to personally invite you to the March edition of the Wik-Ed Women meetup, which will take place on March 15, from 6-10 in the evening. It will occur at Los Angeles Contemporary Archive, 2245 E Washington Blvd, Los Angeles, California 90021 (downtown LA -- map). The building has a pink top with old signage for American Accessories, Inc. dba Princess Accessories (Photos [PDF]). There is on-site parking in the back, which also has an entrance. If you cannot attend in person, you are more than willing to work remotely, as we appreciate all help that you can provide. Finally, here is a link to the Facebook event, in case you want to invite friends, as we are always looking for new editors to help expand coverage of women on Wikipedia!

I hope to see you there! Cosmicphantom (talk) - via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 05:54, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Join our Facebook group here! To opt out of future mailings about LA meetups, please remove your name from this list.

Happy Antandrical Birthday[edit]

Thank you for all you've done and do here, Antandrus. I'm sure Signor Luzzasco thanks you too, bless him. Tanti Auguri! SMirC-smile.svg Voceditenore (talk) 16:32, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! Face-smile.svg Antandrus (talk) 22:25, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
12 years! You're a Wiki-God!--MONGO 03:10, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
You are one of the few to earn this Grandmaster Editor with a Neutronium Superstar! (What ever the heck that is)--MONGO 03:16, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
This editor is a Grandmaster Editor and is entitled to display this Lapis Philosophorum Editor Star with the Neutronium Superstar.
I do believe that half of the CERN teams' work is currently devoted to discovering new chemical elements just so we don't run out of new ones to put on barnstars to award Antandrus. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 13:17, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
And then two seconds after posting this, I got my "Extended Confirmed User" rights. Must be a trickle-down effect from posting messages so close to neutronium superstars. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 13:19, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Belated many happy returns. --Folantin (talk) 10:59, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Precious anniversary[edit]

Four years ago ...
Cornflower blue Yogo sapphire.jpg
broad perspective
... you were recipient
no. 110 of Precious,
a prize of QAI!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:18, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

User groups[edit]

Hello, Antandrus, I want a quest. Maybe you can describe a user groups, except admins, and bureucrats? Thank you.--... Lhealt (talk) 12:22, 2 May 2016 (UTC)Koroshami

Hello Lhealt. I'm a friend of Antandrus. You can read all about the different user groups on Wikipedia at Wikipedia:User access levels. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 14:01, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Thank you very much.--... Lhealt (talk) 14:03, 2 May 2016 (UTC)Lhealt

Mouton and Zarlino[edit]

You said Zarlino was 5 yo. Point taken. However the reference I quoted is in Zarlino's Dimostrationi harmoniche" How can that be explained? The full paragraph I lifted reads: In fatto ha uete ragione à dire, che la Diatessaron sia consonanza: & hanno il torto tutti quelli prattici, che la pongono nel numero delle Dissonanze: ma sono da escusare in questo: che non sanno quel, che si facciano. Adri. Questi ch’hno questa opinione sono in errore. Et mi recordo, che innzi di noi quei buoni Antichi Giosquino, il suo Maestro Gio. Ocheg: Gascogne, & il mio precettore Gio. Motone, in molti luoghi delle loro compositioni l’hanno posta nella parte graue: senza aggiungerle altro in teruallo. Holuigue (talk) 21:03, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes indeed -- that's the trouble with using a primary source and interpreting it literally. What he probably means is Mouton's wisdom is passed down to him through Adrien Willaert, Zarlino's teacher and founder of the Venetian school, who did study directly with Mouton. Hence Mouton is his "precettore" even though the link was not direct. (Just as those other named composers had been dead for a long time when he wrote this). Antandrus (talk) 21:15, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Mouton was a canon in St Quentin[edit]

I thought I was only correcting a misprint. Admittedly, the tomb stone has disappeared, but it is a document that appears quite credible and coherent. The date of his death is accepted by everybody, and it comes from there. I am puzzled Holuigue (talk) 21:11, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

According to the current article in the New Grove, it is probable but not certain. I can include a formal citation. Antandrus (talk) 21:16, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
I rewrote the end to indicate that according to the engraving on his headstone, he had become a canon at St Quentin, etc. Perhaps that captures the minimal uncertainty. Thanks,Antandrus (talk) 21:24, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Mouton in Grenoble[edit]

Did I jump the gun in suggesting he was poached ? I don't think so because his departure caused quite a stir 26.10.1502 Deinde anno quo supra et die veneris XXVI octobris domini... capitulum tenentes dederunt, assignaverunt domino Claudio de Aula presbitero habituato ipsius ecclesie libram presbiteralem vaccantem nunc per recessum absque licencia capituli Johannis Houlievugues dit Mouton magistri cantus.. [1]

Then later, queen Anne went out of her way to smooth things over, and the following text suggests that it took some pressure: 22.4.1509 Deinde die dominica XXII aprilis millesimo quingentesimo nono circa horam primi pulsus vesperorum congregati in capitulo venerabiles domini Hugo Farcilly ... ipsi predicti domini tam nominibus suis quam ceterorum dominorum prepositi et canonicorum absencium ad votum et requisitionem serenissime et christianissime domine nostre domine Anne regine Francie que tunc ibidem in domo thesaurarie contigue dicte ecclesie presens personaliter intererat hospitata; que vive vocis oraculo apud capitulum ipsum intercesserat ut contemplacione ipsius ipsum capitulum vellet creare in dicta ecclesia in canonicum et fratrem veneraabilem virum dominum Johannem Motones dit Houlvigues presbiterum et cantarem cappelle ipsius domine regine cum expectatione prime future vaccature prebende, se ultro hoc faciendo offerendo paratam obsequi et recognituram acceptabile placitum tempore adveniente quo ipsa posset pro bono universalivel particulari dicte ecclesie prout jam per litteras suas missivas et pro eodem Motonis et requisierat et pollicita erat. Qui quidem domini canonici habita matura deliberatione volentes complacere predicte domine ut tenentur et de jure suadentur et etiam habito respectu ad personagium pro quo fiebat requesta et peticio qui vir dignus et laudabilis est ac ecclesie ipsi necessarius ipsum in canonicum et fratrem ipsius ecclesie quathenus de jure potuerint et debuerint creaverunt et nominaverunt ad expectationemprime future vaccature prebende ut potuerunt, salvis prius juribus dicte ecclesie et suis quibus propter hoc in nullo intendunt derrogare; recepto ab eodem domino Petrus Motonis juramento solempni in similibus per canonicos prestari solito juxta forman juramenti contentam in missali novo dicte ecclesie quod quidem juramentum ipse sponte corporaliter genibus flexis cum ambabus manibus sponte prestitit. Acta fuerunt hec infra dictum capitulum dictis die anno et hora presentibus ibidem venerabilibus dominis Petro Motonis organiste predicte domine regine, Gaspardo Pillaudi Pedro Gerbati prebiteris dicte ecclesie, magistro Ludovico Argensonis notario, Petro Salvani mercatore dicte civitatis Gratianopolitane, Johanne Voisin de Blays familiari predicte regine testibus astantibus requisitis et rogatis hoc salvo et retento per dictum capitulum quod a cetero per quamcumque requisitionem seu requestam faciendam non intendunt ulterius creacionem de aliquo faecere in canonicum sed fecerunt et faciunt editum et statutum quod de cetero non possint nec valeant aliquem alium nec creare nec facere. Tandem dato et tradito habitu canonicali eidem domino Motonis dominus Farcilly cantor tanquam antiquior canonicus de madato totius capituli eumdem dominum Motonis cum habitu canonicali eumdem intra chorum ecclesie introducit et eumdem in sede canonicali ultimo et novissimo canonico debita a parte sedis domini prepositi assignavit et eum in eadem sedere et stare cum habitu canonicali fecit sedem ipsam in ipso choro assignando cum expectatione ut supra prime vaccature nullum aliud jus propter hoc assignando nisi quod de jure sibi debetur etc ... In presentia predictorum testium et plurium aliorum. De quibus ipse dominus Motonis acta sibi fieri petiit et dictum capitulum concessit per me subsignatum secretarium capituli. Bernardi [2]


  1. ^ Archive de l’Isère, G447, fol.240
  2. ^ Archive de l’Isère, G447, fol.351-352

Holuigue (talk) 23:46, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Mouton & Zarlino[edit]

Apologies. Thanks for the change I must admit that my Italian is nil, like my latin! I did hesitate to translate precettore by teacher or mentor. However, this quote is worth referring to, with proper wrapping, given Mouton's reputation as a teacher, and the indisputed, towering reputation of Zarlino. Holuigue (talk) 23:55, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi again -- feel free to work any of that in, I'll edit as necessary. Regarding the poaching, that's also interesting and possible. Can you find a contemporary source? We're supposed to use secondary sources only, although there are exceptions. I can look at this in more detail later. Also I need to move this to the article talk page for other people who are interested. Antandrus (talk) 23:58, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

About the poaching of Mouton: All I have is the text I mentioned above, which comes from official archives. I think my interpretation is fair.It is dated from 1509

Saw this on my watchlist and immediately my mind went to this. Sorry, some things can't be helped. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:37, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
Ha ha, I love that piece! Did you know that most professional performances now script it? i.e. they don't mess up enough, so they have to plan the moment they lose place. I don't know what Fred thinks of this. (Did I tell you I studied with him? Large institution, long ago and far away.) Antandrus (talk) 01:04, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Mouton born in Wirwignes ?[edit]

The association of Mouton with the village of Hautwignes is spurious and totally unfounded. I found this in the family archives: 1473 in Nordausques(near St Omer) Philippe de Bersecques is lord of Welles (Nordausques) and Hollinghes. He is captain of the castle of Eperlecques Hollinghes, fief of the parish of Nordausques, figures in a 1452 map Sorry, no reference for the information ! The name Holuigue is frequent in the area and there is no convincing argument to attach it to a specific village. Andrew Kirkman (Birmingham University) has explored the well preserved archives of the Collegiale in St Omer. I noted (excuse my french !)


Andrew Kirkman, en recherchant les archives de la Collégiale de St-Omer (largement préservées à la Bibliothèque de Saint-Omer, sur une période de 400 ans. Sur la période de 1460 à 1490, il ne manque que deux ans et demi de comptes de la fabrique), a trouvé la mention suivante, datée du 25 Aout 1494:

“Item le xxve d’aoust a maistre Jehan Mouton du cant lequel a escript au livre deschant deux messes pour sa paine”

Les comptes de la fabrique pour l’année suivante mentionnent un travail de copiiste substantiel entrepris par Mouton. Son nom est qualifié de “de Holluighe”, donc son identification est sans ambiguité:

“Item audit maistre Jehan de Holluighe pour une main de pappier Carte Realle pour escripre aucunes messes au grant livre de discant au coeur: iiii s” “Item audit maistre Jehan pour avoir Regle ledit pappier et escript trois messes nouvelles: xvi s” “Item audit maistre Jehan pour avoir escript encoures audit livre trois autres messe: xv s” Sur la page suivante du même compte, Mouton est payé pour la rédaction d’un manuscrit complet: “ Item a maistre Jehan de holluighes pour une main de pappier le avoir Regle/ et compose ung livre de Magnificat sur tous les tons Te Deum et autres chose en discant mis au coeur de ladit eglise duquel par lordonnance de messires G.Decault. R.De monte et R poilly commis a viseter ledit livre par Capitle paye xxviii s”

Il apparait donc que Mouton, durant ces deux années d’activité de copiiste, chantait aussi aux services religieux. Un document des Actes du Chapitre, daté de Septembre 1495, lui accorde le paiement de ce qui parait être une ‘distribution’, tout en spécifiant que ce paiement est une continuation de paiements faits l’année précédente. En outre il apparait que Mouton était employé comme ‘remplaçant’, car le document spécifie qu’il sera payé jusqu’au retour de Michael Le Gay, vicaire, qui bénéficie d’un congé de plusieurs mois: “Eadem die [18.9.95] domini continuando gratiam anno preterito factam petro sommelart thenoriste magistro Johanni mouton et petro [sommelart, crossed out, followed by blank] concesserunt eisdem gratiam eandem videlicet petro xij d. ..Johanni xij.d. .. et petro ix d. usque ad omnium sanctorum et alijs videlicet thenoriste et mouton per totum annum aut dicto mouton usque ad adventum d.[omini] michaelis le gay vicarii” Les archives de la collégiale nous fournissent aussi des renseignements sur d’autres personnages, qu’il nous faut bien considérer comme des parents ‘potentiels’ de notre musicien:

   ?.1463    ‘franciscus de holluigues’est nommé vicaire

9. 1.1464 ‘franciscus de holluigues’ est nommé chapelain à l’autel de ‘beate marie de ? capella’ 1. 5.1465 ‘franciscus de holluigues’ bénéficie d’une prébende rendue libre par ‘Nicolai de aula’ 4. 4.1475 ‘Jacobo Moton’est nommé chapelain de ‘beate marie’

26.1.1478 ‘jacobo de Holluige’est nommé chapelain de Ste Catherine, dans la paroisse du Saint Sepulcre — Preceding unsigned comment added by Holuigue (talkcontribs) 02:17, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Mouton & Wirwignes[edit]

I put all my info together, but could not find a way to include a couple of scans. So, I will try something else. My final text is at

Wirwignes Controversy

Regards Holuigue (talk) 00:14, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

User page[edit]

Hello there!

I am quite new to being a Wiki user (I literally registered just a few hours ago), so everything is pretty much confusing at the moment. I am sure I will be able to wrap my head around it once I actually start writing/editing (I learn by doing) but I thought I could write an About me page, or User page as it is called here. And so I did. I wrote and wrote, and I am somewhat satisfied with what I've done so far. Now, the thing is, I cannot find anywhere the information on- who exactly can see my user page? I spent some time reading about it. From what I understand, my User page is public, but no one other then myself will edit it (unless I breach terms and conditions). But then I read that User page is not the same as Article page (and by the way, I am not interested in having my own Article page, nor would I be interesting enough for it :-) ). Anyways, I keep reading about these people being abused, insulted, followed on facebook, twitter etc, which made me wonder what are the chances of something like that happening to me? I admit I am probably being a bit paranoid here, I am nowhere near important enough on Wiki for someone to stalk me, nor have I given any personal information that could lead to it. I guess what I am trying to say/ask is, how smart is it for me to put a real picture of myself? Is there a way to change my User name? And the last one is the one I already asked, who can see my user page? Also, oddly enough, I can't be able to find a page with sort of a list of users or something like that. I found you on page that shows and example of Article looking User page. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough or as we like to say in Serbian "it won't call me". :-) Thank you in advance for any help/information you can give me.

Kind regards,

Elena Thomas (talk) 13:48, 10 May 2016 (UTC)Elena

Hi Elena and welcome! I answered some of your questions on your user talk page. Antandrus (talk) 16:13, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

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Thanks! Sure, I can probably contribute -- I'm not hugely active these days, but that comes and goes. It seems like I live in a place that is always on fire. Thank you for getting the project going. Antandrus (talk) 00:57, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Gustav Holst[edit]

Thank you! Your point was my point. Not everyone knows what an "orchestral suite" yet it's in the lead - with no explanation in the article. But, inexplicably, some folks have called the simple link fix either "overlinking" or claimed it somehow changed the meaning(?!). Go figure... X4n6 (talk) 22:55, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

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