User talk:Bazonka

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Thanks! Mike Peel (talk) 17:01, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


Hi! I see that you are going round changing "licenced" to "licensed". Have you read WP:ENGVAR recently, and in particular MOS:RETAIN? "An article should not be edited or renamed simply to switch from one variety of English to another." OK, File:Georg Ehrlich.jpg is not an article; but what exactly is your defence for changing the spelling there? I suggest you self-revert all of those edits, which are (a) pointless and (b) (to some of us at least) plain wrong. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:49, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

This is nothing to do with WP:ENGVAR. In British English, "licence" is the noun spelling and "license" (and hence "licensed") is the verb spelling. In American English "license" is used for both the noun and the verb. "Licenced" is ALWAYS wrong. Bazonka (talk) 20:51, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary, 1972 edition, page 758: "Licence, in U.S. license .. n. a being allowed; leave …. v.t. license, to grant licence … also licence. " Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:08, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
OK, so in some rare, archaic and/or non-standard cases "licence" may be used as a verb, but this is generally considered incorrect and (unless part of a quotation) shouldn't be used in Wikipedia. Bazonka (talk) 21:21, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
I also disagree with the changes, licenced is an acceptable and often used form of the verb in British English but not U.S. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 22:37, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
You're just wrong then. It is not "often used" at all, except in error. Bazonka (talk) 22:40, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
An Oxford English Dictionary in front of me says otherwise. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 22:42, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
@Nimbus227: I am not disputing that "licence" is a valid verb form, but that it is "often used". As a verb, this is a highly uncommon spelling. My own Oxford consice and (much larger) Reader's Digest dictionaries do not even mention this spelling as a verb. Here are some examples of official UK uses of "license" as a verb: DVLA, TV licensing, Bar Council. There are, of course, countless more. Wikipedia should not use rare or obsolete spellings where perfectly good alternatives exist (see MOS:S). My own personal view is that the licence/license distinction in British English is much better than the American license/license - their language is not as nuanced or as rich as ours; your preference for licence/licence does not have this distinction either. Bazonka (talk) 07:02, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
The fact that you have 'corrected' several hundred instances of the word so far on Wikipedia alone would indicate that it is used more often than you would have us believe. I'm done here and nearly done with the project due to these kind of crusades. Have fun. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 20:04, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
Crusades? Wow. I'm just changing archaic spellings to standard English, as per MOS:S. Bazonka (talk) 20:26, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────(edit conflict) And there we have it: the real reason why people should not go round changing microscopic and totally insignificant details (especially when those people have got their facts wrong from the start, of course). Bazonka, if you think that the ordinary English word "licenced" should not be used in Wikipedia, go ahead and obtain consensus. Once you've done so, you can bugger up other people's spelling to your heart's content, just like the person/people/Vogons who won't allow a hyphen in a compound adjective such as "wholly-owned". Until then, you are plain wrong, and should undo the edits where you incorrectly changed that word. For heaven's sake, haven't you got anything better to do? Want to try your hand at copyright clean-up (it's a lot more interesting than fiddling with spelling)? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:27, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

"Licenced" is absolutely not an "ordinary English word". I have given three (out of many) examples of reliable and official British uses of "license" (verb use) above. I challenge you, @Justlettersandnumbers:, to find similar examples of "licence" as a verb. You won't be able to. It's not a standard word. Sorry, but you're the one who's got their facts wrong. Bazonka (talk) 20:38, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
@Justlettersandnumbers: Here's a few more official and reliable examples. CRT, EA, NHS, PRS. Come on, put your money where your mouth is. Show me uses of "licenced"/"licencing", and we'll see who's "plain wrong". PS I work in licensing, so I do actually know what I'm talking about. Bazonka (talk) 20:58, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
@Justlettersandnumbers: Here are a few more just for fun. Met Police, TNA, Gangmasters Licensing Authority, UK legislation, Oxford university. The latter example is of course the home of the dictionary beloved by advocates of BrE (myself included). I utterly challenge your assertion that I've "got [my] facts wrong from the start". Bazonka (talk) 21:29, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
(talk page stalker)Licence/license is not a new thing. Fowler and Fowler (1926). The Concise Oxford Dictionary. Oxford at Clarendon Press. p. 469.  licence (noun) a permit: license (verb) to allow an action: It's the same as practice and practise and has always been so in my experience. A lot of people don't realise that license is correct as a verb and mistakenly think it's an Americanism. Eagleash (talk) 21:46, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Will those people complaining of ENGVAR please try reading a dictionary before commenting. As a verb, license is correct for both. Licence is English, but only as a noun.
"Licence built" is still a problem, as no-one can agree if that's building under licence (noun) or being licensed to build (verb). Andy Dingley (talk) 10:24, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Andy. I guess in the case of "licence built" the best thing to do would be to let the current spelling stand (unless it's an AmE article). Bazonka (talk) 11:05, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
The online OED has as its headword for the verb entry "license | licence, v." indicating that it considers both spellings to have equal status. The OED gives the history of various forms of a word indicating when they were first recorded and when they became obsolete. Both forms are shown as still being current with the licence form being much the older. Google books "licenced" shows that there is very widespread usage of licenced in published works, so to claim that it is rare is somewhat of an overstatement. This campaign is pedantry at its worst, trying to define the language by regulation. A good dictionary will never do that, they report the language as it is actually used, they do not try to dictate usage. SpinningSpark 11:25, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
@Spinningspark: Your Google Books search for "licenced" brings back only 161,000 results (as opposed to 2,120,000 for "licensed") and I suspect that a lot of these are due to spelling ignorance rather than a deliberate choice, and some are actually spelt "licensed" when you look at them (e.g. [1], "Licenced Premices"! but really it's called "Licensed Premises".)
In any case our Manual of Style explicitly mandates the use of "license" as a verb in all forms of English, so that should really put an end to this silly debate. But what I find most strange is that the file where you objected to my change citing WP:ENGVAR (File:Large antenna loading coil.jpg) should be written in AmE anyway, so there's double the reason for using the S spelling. Bazonka (talk) 11:53, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
"...only 161,000 results" SpinningSpark 12:01, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
...many of which are invalid when you actually look at them. Bazonka (talk) 12:02, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
As a student of correct English, I am sure you realise that many implies more than one. Have you actually managed to find more than one? I couldn't in the first two pages of results (except for a repeat of the same book). SpinningSpark 12:14, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
OK, perhaps I overstated that a bit, but I think that the gist of what I said still stands. [2], should be AmE so definitely wrong by anyone's standards. [3], obvious typo when you Google the organisation name. [4], as mentioned above, actually spelt "licensed" when you look at it. A lot of the others are typewritten documents (not proper books) or are very old. As I said above, I suspect the vast majority of the others are due to ignorance of the spelling. Bazonka (talk) 12:27, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
The OED is famously descriptive; we can't conclude that it regards all spellings provided as having "equal status". For guidance, I'd look to Fowler's Modern English Usage.
  • The first edition (1926) is mild: "licence, -se. The first is better for the noun, the second for the verb. Compare, for this convenient distinction, advice, -se, device, -se, practice, -se, prophecy, sy, in all of which the c marks the noun."
  • The second edition (1965) is slightly stronger: "licence, -se. The first is right for the noun, the second for the verb. Compare, for this convenient distinction, advice, -se, device, -se, practice, -se, prophecy, sy, in all of which the c marks the noun. (IN U.S. license and practice are preferred for both.)"
  • The third (1996) and fourth (2015) editions are sterner: "licence, -se. In BrE the first is the only spelling for the noun (AmE license), while the second is the normal form for the verb in both countries. Thus, in BrE, motor vehicle licence, poetic licence; to license one's car, licensing hours. Hence also licensed premises, licensed restaurants (implying that they have a licence to serve alcoholic liquor) and (now a rather old-fashioned word) licensed victuallers. Occasionally one encounters licenced instead of licensed in such circumstances (rationalized, it is alleged, as being formed from the noun rather than from the verb), but this is a case of special pleading." NebY (talk) 12:48, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
I was too quick to assume the OED wouldn't provide guidance. The first edition's L-M (completed by about 1923) has a long note, reading in part "In the case of the vb., on the other hand, although the spelling licence is etymologically unobjectionable, license is supported by the analogy of the rule universally adopted in the similar pairs .... Johnson and Todd give only the form license both for the sb. and the vb., but the spelling of their quots. conforms, with one exception, to the rule above referred to, which is recognized by Smart ((1836), and seems to represent the now prevailing usage. Recent Dicts., however, almost universally have license both for sb. and vb., either without alternative or in the first place." NebY (talk) 13:11, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is User:Bazonka and spelling changes. Thank you. SpinningSpark 11:59, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

And it has been emphatically closed in my favour, so I think that puts this discussion to bed. Bazonka (talk) 13:41, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
And reopened again, sigh... Meanwhile, I am still waiting for User:Justlettersandnumbers to respond to my challenge to find official and reliable sources using the C spelling, to match the S ones that I quoted above. If anyone else would like to provide some, I'll be astonished. Bazonka (talk) 10:59, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Nah, this is all tiddlywinks, why not another lengthy painful drawn out session as to whether the southern ocean exists (or not)... JarrahTree 14:40, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Liga II[edit]

I see you edited Liga II seasons, maybe you can create some more seasons in Liga II, I will give you the references. Thank you!--Alexiulian25 (talk) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

@Alexiulian25: I only fixed a spelling error. I have no interest in the subject matter, so I do not want to create new articles. Why don't you do it yourself? Bazonka (talk) 09:38, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

It is a lot, I will do it, but today all day I edited in Welsh football, it was disaster there, the first division before 1992 ! Welsh Football League this was in South, what league was played in North of Wales before 1992?--Alexiulian25 (talk) 19:34, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

English variants[edit]

Hi Bazonka, re: these edits [5][6] please note that Danger Mouse is a British series, so we should be using British English. I manually undid your edit yesterday where you changed "licence" to "license", and I also added a {{Use British English}} template to the top of the article. I'd appreciate it if you'd please keep an eye out for this. I'm concerned because I see hundreds of swaps like this in your recent edit history. On the other hand, if I'm wrong that "licence" is a valid word, please tell me, but this suggests that it is valid. (Tangentially, the ability to discriminate between different spelling lists seems like a feature AWB should be equipped with if it's not already equipped to do so...I may have to request that feature.) Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:13, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Ah, just saw your edit summary. I hath been educated! Sorry! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:14, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
No problem! (Sorry for the edit war earlier. Because you'd done a soft revert I hadn't received a revert notification, so I changed the article again without realising that I'd already edited it.) Bazonka (talk) 18:17, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
Clearly the mistake was mine. :) I'm just glad I wasn't an arrogant dick about it. Whew! Came thaaat close. (not true) Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:22, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I think your editing on licensing/licencing has been confrontational and you have made no real effort to discuss or seek consensus. WP:STRONGNAT mandates use of national varieties of English. Here are some examples of licencing being used by official bodies and media:

Newcastle City Council, Australia

Eyewitness news, South Africa

I only spent a few minutes doing this for a few specific countries. Pinging User:Spinningspark, User:Nyttend, User:Justlettersandnumbers. Bazonka, your comments at the ANI were supremely arrogant "like it or not, I've done it" and "the discussion is redundant" AusLondonder (talk) 23:21, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, I wasn't going to respond to a childish schoolyard challenge, but since someone else has given some examples, here are two thousand seven hundred and seventeen occurrences of "licencing" in reliable sources on Highbeam. And yes, there's a serious WP:IDHT attitude problem here too. Anyone can make a mistake; but when one is pointed out, "fuck you, I've finished" is not an appropriate response. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:30, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
And another one thousand and eighty-eight on JSTOR. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:33, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
five thousand two hundred and thirty-six on Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:38, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
I haven't got time to respond properly to this now, but just the first ones I clicked on in the Highbeam link are obvious spelling mistakes, e.g. [7] which refers to the "MPEG-4 Audio Licencing Committee". However, the committee doesn't spell its own name like that. I'll agree that its a very common typo. (And I apologise if you thought I was saying "fuck you", although of course I never used those words.) Bazonka (talk) 23:43, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Nine thousand or so typos? In printed sources from all over the world? Over a thousand typos in the sort of source that JSTOR carries? And every typo the same typo? You have it back-to-front. The verb is correctly spelt "licence" in my kind of English. I freely admit that that usage, like so many others, is changing under the relentless pressure of Webster-based spelling. I also accept that you may have thought that MOS:S was some sort of Bible. Neither of those excuses your attitude. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:58, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Both the Birmingham Mail and Yorkshire Evening Post articles spell it as both "licencing" and "licensing". Not exactly trustworthy sources then. I haven't really looked at many more, but so far it's just confirming my suspicion that these are all typos rather than conscious decisions to use that spelling variant. Bazonka (talk) 23:47, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
I've run quick checks on three of the sites you mention, chosen from different countries but otherwise at random.
These results seem so overwhelming that it hardly seems worth continuing, but you might like to try similar comparative searches on the other sites you mention.
I should correct one detail in my posting above. The Leisureness-Lief section of the OED was "ready for publication" in March 1902. NebY (talk) 23:52, 11 November 2015 (UTC) licencing 5,236, licensing 535,478.
JSTOR: licencing 1,088, licensing 96,768. NebY (talk) 23:58, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
(Edit conflict)What a load of nonsense to suggest that many typos have occurred unnoticed. What is clear is that licencing is still used, especially interchangeably. It is not as black and white as you think. OED says "British: also licence" for the verb. Do you think a typo was made when naming the Tamil Nadu Licencing Authority? AusLondonder (talk) 00:08, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Of course American spelling is being forced by users such as yourself (in violation of WP:STRONGNAT) which is why American spellings are seen more in some searches. AusLondonder (talk) 00:10, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
It would seem that there are indeed typos on the Tamil Nadu website and that the correct name of the board uses "licensing". The website template uses "Licencing" on the header of each page, but the text is "Licensing", e.g. "The Tamilnadu "Electrical Licensing Board" is a body constituted by the Government of Tamilnadu under rule 45 of Indian Electrcitiy Rules 1956, for the issue of competency certificates and Licenses to the contractors. The Chief Electrical Inspector to Government is the President of the Licensing Board. The head office is located in the Industrial Estate, Guindy, Chennai. This Electrical Licensing Board has no Branches." The Indian Electricity Rules 1956 use licence for the noun, but licensee and licensed. NebY (talk) 00:26, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
I've quoted Fowler already and the Telegraph's style guide above, but of course other UK style guides are available. The BBC one has "Licence/license - The noun is licence with a ‘c’ (eg: driving licence); the verb has an ‘s’ (eg: licensed to kill)." The Guardian/Observer has "licence noun; license verb; you might enjoy your drinks in a licensed premises or take them home from an off-licence". Sadly, the Economist one is silent on the matter and the Times one doesn't seem to be available online, while the FT Lexicon confuses everything by listing both licence and license as nouns, along with licensee and licensor. The Daily Mail doesn't publish a style guide but Margaret Ashworth does; she was a sub-editor at the Mail for 39 years, wrote a style guide for them[8] and then published a revised version of it: "licence/license: licence is the noun, license is the verb. So: ‘He has a driving licence’, and ‘He is licensed to sell beer’ (thus ‘licensee’)." I haven't looked for style guides for the Independent, Sun, Mirror, Express or Star - perhaps you could? NebY (talk) 00:50, 12 November 2015 (UTC)