User talk:CJLippert

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my notes; my User talk:CJLippert activity archives for: 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.


Just a little more about myself... if you're really, really curious.[edit]

So, if you ever come to the misi-zaaga'iganiing on the beautiful banks of the m'de wakan and see a curious fellow running around wearing a yarmulka... that's be me!

File copyright problem with File:FondDuLac.jpg[edit]


Thank you for uploading File:FondDuLac.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. FASTILYsock(TALK) 03:04, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

lost 800+ characters[edit]

In this diff there was a loss of some info. Was that intentional? Alatari (talk) 03:27, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

No loss of info. Did these minor edits in two parts. The resulting 800+ character difference arise from consolidating a reference listed twice to once cited twice. CJLippert (talk) 01:48, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:Treaty of Traverse des Sioux 1851.jpg[edit]


Thank you for uploading File:Treaty of Traverse des Sioux 1851.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

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If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. FASTILYsock(TALK) 21:35, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer[edit]

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Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a two-month trial currently scheduled to end 15 August 2010.

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under flagged protection. Flagged protection is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial. The list of articles with pending changes awaiting review is located at Special:OldReviewedPages.

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If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. Karanacs (talk) 14:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Could you look at this FAC?[edit]

SandyGeorgia (talk) suggested I contact you and ask you to look at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Menominee Tribe v. United States/archive1, which is a hunting & fishing treaty rights case involving the Menominee during the termination era. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. GregJackP Boomer! 19:21, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

CJ-- I read your excellent work on this article, and agree with you on its quality. If you wanted to explicitly support its promotion to FA status, you probably should do so by putting a Support on the left margin after your comments, where it will not be missed. You of course can support, oppose, or simply comment. I read your comments as an implicit support, but it would be better to make it explicit, if you believe it meets FAC criteria. Regards, Kablammo (talk) 13:38, 4 September 2010 (UTC)


If you don't mind, I have a couple of questions on your comments there. Also, if you watchlisted that page, could you let me know (so I don't bother you with these pesky TBs). Thanks GregJackP Boomer! 14:09, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I do have have the page on my watchlist, and will keep so until I'm satisfied with the results. Currently putting together a response to your questions and comments. You'll see them posted soon. CJLippert (talk) 14:27, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


Hello, Charles. Discussion of a 2010 Minnesota Wikipedia Meetup has begun. Please see the talk page. Jonathunder (talk) 23:19, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Nokiiwin Tribal Council[edit]

I have no idea what is going on, things like this aren't really announced or anything. The "office" is apparently just a house. No media has covered this as far as I can tell. I've looked in Wawatay's archive, I haven't found anything yet. Some articles are in syllabics but I am pretty sure those are just duplicates of English articles, either way I can't read them. I checked May, April and March and found nothing.

You would probably have better luck finding something out if you contacted them yourself. vıdıoman 21:15, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Animbiigoo Zaagi'igan Anishinaabek is a bit too complicated an article for me to write right now. Their reserve was just created so the article would have to focus more on the band and its history, and I don't have the time to devote to finding all that right now. If you're going to write it here are some helpful links I found: News article about establishing their reserve land; INAC page; website. INAC urls have changed so the links on the articles mostly point to the INAC home page. I'm not native so I don't pay enough attention to developments in their bands and communities to be able to write about them with confidence, and I'm pretty much limited to just what I can find on the internet and in local media. I'll put it on my to-do list and try to get at least a basic article set up if you don't have time to do it soon. vıdıoman 21:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Suggestions for next Minnesota meetup?[edit]

Hi, CJ, do you have any suggestions for a next date or place for a Minnesota meetup? I was disappointed to miss last Sunday's meetup once a work meeting coincided with the time announced for the meetup. I would be happy to arrange a meetup soon. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 14:09, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

The next October meeting should definitely happen in the Twin Cities, but as so many missed this last one, an alternate meeting is definitely called for. As most Wikipedians in Minnesota are in the Twin Cities, and due to the size of Minnesota, I have been debating if St. Cloud may be a good meet-up location for the alternate meeting, maybe somewhere on the campus of St. Cloud State. I was toying with the idea of Brainerd, but that may be a bit too far for the Twin Cities folks, though it would be easier access for those in northern and central Minnesota. What are some of your ideas? CJLippert (talk) 17:31, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

It was great to see you at the meetup[edit]

I can see we can find a lot to talk about in regard to languages other than English and their use in reading sources or in exchanging content among different language versions of Wikipedia. It was a delight to meet you and I look forward to learning from you how to improve the articles on Minnesota. Thanks for putting up the signs for the meetup. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 00:29, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

It was nice to see you, too WéijīBǎikēBiānjí. FYI, my sister-in-law speaks Chinese fluently, used to work for at the Taiwanese Consulate until US changed its diplomatic status with Taiwan, and my brother speaks Japanese, Korean and Mandarin Chinese fluently. We have such wonderful language teachers/treasures in the upper Midwest ever since the 1960's. It appears you were also a beneficiary of those teachers as well. CJLippert (talk) 18:06, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes. One of my good friends from high school studied Ojibwe and Dakota (among other languages) during the years I was studying Chinese as an undergrad. It's always fun to meet someone who has learned a second or third or fourth language. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 20:21, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Huron Tract[edit]

Thanks so much for the work on the First Nations part of the Huron Tract. Anything more you can add to give it a more balanced view will be greatly appreciated. I did ask for native input for the peer review, but didn't manage to get that then. CJ_WeißSchäfer 01:42, 1 December 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CJ3370 (talkcontribs)

Opinion requested on the use of SHPO sources[edit]

As you were at the meet-up at the Minnesota History Center, and an active member of the Minnesota WikiProject, I would like to ask you to please come and share your opinion on the use of certain sources that were found at the State Historic Preservation Office and whether or not they violate WP:RS or WP:OR in how they are being used. The discussion is taking place here. --Bobak (talk) 20:28, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Great to see you at the Wikipedia Tenth Anniversary Meet-up[edit]

Hi, CJ,

It was good to see you at the meet-up yesterday. I've just found some good sources for the controversial articles I edit, and I hope to add those to my source lists soon. I'm going to try to figure out all the languages on the one Wikipedia T-shirt before I turn to the online search that will surely reveal the answer. See you at the next meet-up. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 21:33, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the formatting edit just now on my talk page. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 18:05, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
You're welcome. Some formatting, I do take the liberty to adjust, such as the Microsoft Formatting Code that doesn't get translated in Wikipedia, so it comes off as a style note that serves no purpose (most often occurs when you copy edit from a MS Word document), or if unusual Level 1 heading used (as Wikipedia generally uses Level 2 onward). Otherwise, I really try not to edit other people's own pages. CJLippert (talk) 18:15, 18 January 2011 (UTC)


Wikipedia Autopatrolled.svg

Hello, this is just to let you know that I have granted you the "autopatrolled" permission. This won't affect your editing, it just automatically marks any page you create as patrolled, benefiting new page patrollers. Please remember:

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If you have any questions about the permission, don't hesitate to ask. Otherwise, happy editing! Acalamari 18:31, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Indigenous peoples of America[edit]

We finally have the fifth Beatle at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Indigenous peoples of the Americas. Since you were involved with the creation of WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, how would you propose that we move forward? Cheers, -Uyvsdi (talk) 04:32, 17 February 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi

MS Paint?[edit]

I just wanted to take a moment to compliment you on your Did you make that in MS Paint? Nice, hehe. Also, in general, great job adding to all the WI and MN knowledge here! J. J. (talk) 15:09, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that was an MS Paint image from years ago, before I got ESRI ArcGIS at work. I should revisit my notes on how I drew that image and re-create it in a crisper version using GIS, maybe even in vector image instead of as a raster image. CJLippert (talk) 14:13, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Bunibonibee Cree Nation[edit]

Nice job on turning my little effort into a solid "start" piece. I went back and forth on the name. I gather you use the INAC preferred names. Where is a definitive source of those names? --Stormbay (talk) 19:57, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

There is no definitive name, but as both INAC and Keewatin Tribal Council use that name, that was the name that was used on the list and now also for the article. You originally had used but over the past several years, I have found that site as not a reliable site. CJLippert (talk) 20:34, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


Message at Talk:Bearberry#Kinnikinick redirect. --Bejnar (talk) 23:14, 29 April 2011 (UTC)


Hello. Thank you so much for reserving a place for the Wiknic. Was there a cost involved?

I started a notification template. If you could, please check this page and see if everything there is correct.

Thanks again. Jonathunder (talk) 23:11, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Hello. I am rather new to this (though a professional writer, not just seasoned as a contributor. Could use a mentor if you might be interested. Minnehaha is both a wonderful as well as Historical site (have led tours for K-12 there for many years) Also have an extensive translation set I inherited from Guy Gambill, who had worked perfecting it (he is a linguist who managed to track down many Native speakers. So this is my RSVP. I'll be the guy with the pony tail growing his forehead.

Thanks again. Windminstrel-wiki (talk) 03:54, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Hello, Windminstrel-wiki. I have put your name on the list at Wikipedia talk:Meetup/Minnesota. Bring something to share. See you there. CJLippert (talk) 15:57, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Cree Dictionary[edit]

This was virtually all copyvio. Carry out your earlier merge proposal and just add it to Cree language, turning the article into a redirect? Dougweller (talk) 05:23, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Sure. Sounds good. Thanks. CJLippert (talk) 15:31, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Good. Wish I was a bit closer to Minnesota for the Wiknic.Dougweller (talk) 17:27, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Catch a plane. The Wiknic is right by the airport! CJLippert (talk) 17:28, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Cree article[edit]

i noticed you were doing clean-up on the above. I think that the Canada (in Manitoba) Black Sturgeon First Nation and Marcel Colomb First Nation are one and the same. However, I know you have some good resources to check facts so I thought I would pass this along for you to verify, if you have the time. Thanks!--Stormbay (talk) 03:32, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

The government is Marcel Colomb First Nation. Their landbase is Black Sturgeon Indian Reserve. Again, so often the Reserve's name and the Government's name got mixed up, but yes, the two names are trying to describe the same peoples. CJLippert (talk) 13:09, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for your confirmation! I had some peripheral association with this years ago in real life and was interested. It is tough finding info that one can trust as a reliable source for 1st Nations stuff on the internet. (at least i seem to have a problem). Cheers!--Stormbay (talk) 22:12, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

New Page Patrol survey[edit]


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Fellows v. Blacksmith[edit]

Hello, CJLippert ... I was wondering if you would be interested in perusing Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fellows v. Blacksmith/archive1? Savidan is a competent writer; since the content is up your alley, you might be interested in having a look. More reviewers are always needed at FAC! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:50, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing the article. Unfortunately, I am not in agreement with you on the question of whether Featured Articles should have red links or whether a FAC may demand improvements of other articles not nominated. If you can refer to a policy or guideline statement to the contrary, I will do as you suggest. Savidan 17:16, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I haven't looked at the FAC (saw this still on my watchlist after I pinged CJ the other day), but Savidan, the relevant page is WP:RED. Topics that meet notability should have red links. Not sure what is raised on the FAC, as I don't have time to look at it today. Best regards to both, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:20, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
The only remaining red links are judges and Supreme Court cases. I think these would be judged as notable, although I do not have any short term intentions to write about them. I have also added footnotes to nearly all of the 39 law review articles citing the case. As you can see, this did not result in much above-the-line expansion in the article because of the de minimis role of the case in those articles. Savidan 19:03, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I have expanded the discussion of that case. Savidan 19:10, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. It really looks great now. With others' feedbacks, incorporated, I do believe this article will be FA. Great job! CJLippert (talk) 16:05, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Would you mind clarifying on the FAC page itself whether you have any remaining concerns? Savidan 08:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

USRD WikiProject Newsletter, Winter 2012[edit]

USRD Newsletter header.svg
Volume 5, Issue 1 • Winter 2011 • About the Newsletter
This edition is going out to all USRD WikiProject members (current, former, or potential) in addition to other subscribers as part of a roll call to update the participants list. Anyone that would like to continue to receive this newsletter in the future needs to update the subscription list if they are not already subscribed.
State and national updates
ArchivesNewsroomFull IssueShortcut: WP:USRD/NEWS
Imzadi 1979  21:58, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit-a-thon scheduled for 25 Feb[edit]

Hi, Charles. Somebody from the Hennepin County Library posted back in November about an edit-a-thon at Minneapolis Central Library scheduled for the 25th on WT:Meetup/Minnesota, but there's been no discussion of it and very few people appear to have noticed (I only just did). Could you help get the word out on-wiki as with previous meetups? (I'm wondering if this ought to be rescheduled.) —innotata 18:51, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I though this was in conjunction with the National Librarian Convention that is supposed to be held that week, and if I recall, one of our librarian friends was approached and had agreed to organising this. I will take a look at my history and see if I can recall the specific details, through. Thanks for the heads-up. CJLippert (talk) 20:51, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
(Can't find anything about a National Librarian Convention later this month; talked to Ian at Special Collections who's organising, he says the edit-a-thon is just a beginning—test run—, and doesn't know how it started.) Did you catch I don't think many people have noticed on wiki, and there isn't as much time as in the past to get the word out by now, see the meetup talk? I suppose I should get the word out on talk pages now then: tomorrow I'll post the {{Minnesota meetup}} template to all editors I can find (WikiProject Minnesota, Twin Cities category editors, editors informed of past meetups). I don't know how else we can get out word, apart from the geolocated banner Jonathunder set up previously; I hope we can reach some people in time. —innotata 22:07, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit-a-thon at Hennepin County Library[edit]

Minneapolis History edit-a-thon

We invite the Minnesota Wikipedia community and local historians to edit entries in Wikipedia on Minneapolis history. Please help us increase the depth of information on Minneapolis history topics by utilizing materials in the Minneapolis Collection. Find your own Minneapolis History topics to edit or work from a list developed by Special Collections Librarians.

Where: Minneapolis Central Library, 300 Nicollet Mall, Minneapolis
When: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 10-5 pm
10 am - 11 am Orientation to Minneapolis Collection
11 am - 5 pm Edit-a-thon
Website: Hennepin County Library, Special Collections, Map & Directions
Parking: Metered street parking or pay ramp in basement, enter on 4th Ave --HCLschlubb (talk) 16:30, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
Hi there,

I notice that you work for the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe and you have edited the Treaty of LaPointe page. My surname is Shegog and I have noticed that a signatory of that treaty was named Shegog (Zhigaag). I wonder if you know anything about the movement of Native Americans to Europe in the 1500s-1600s? We have traced our name back to Europe up until the end of the 17th century but could go no further back. I have read that some Native Americans were taken back to France by the French (who were their allies at the time) which would explain why the name came to Europe. AGirl1191 (talk) 19:50, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Hello and thank you. Indigenous peoples of the Americas did indeed go to Europe (if you go to Madrid, Spain to the former royal court, you will see a beautiful carving of a Taino mixed in with the Spagnards, because at the time, the Tainos were considered Spanish subjects. (Ah, Colonialism.) Another famous story is about a group of Mohawks went to France, and upon returning and seeing the familiar coastline with their home village, they excitedly yelled "Kanata!", which today gave rise to the name Canada. Or in the US history, Squanto played a central rôle in the Pilgrim story... and every wonder why the Squanto interacted with the Pilgrims in English? (Years earlier, while in his youth, he was abducted by the English who was going to sell him as a slave in Spain.) So, yes, I know of these and about a handful more of similar stories. However, for exact persons or communities involved in this trans-Atlantic travel, I am clueless. I would suggest contacting ethnographers and historians from places such as University of Connecticut, Penobscot Nation, etc. Also, remember, all the languages in the Wabanaki are similar to the Ojibwe language as all are Algonquian languages. CJLippert (talk) 22:30, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Translation Needed: Аав[edit]


We're still not sure what language is used in this article: Аав but we think it's either Mongolian or Kazakh. So could you please translate the article title and content (it's very short) as soon as possible?

Article title: Аав


Өглөө эртлэн босохдоо таныгаа би үгүйлдэгээ мэдэрдэг Өмөг 
түшиг тань үрдээ амьдрал бэлэглэдэг байсан 
байна Хэзээ ч би ганцаардана гэдгээ мэдэхгүй эрх 
тэнэг байж Хэрвээ та байсан бол...

Thanks, BlowingTopHat 02:11, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

This text is definitely Mongolian and not Qazaq. It also appears to be a quotation of a speech, but I am only understanding about 1/4 of what is there, which is not really enough to give a proper translation. It wouldn't be encyclopaedic, anyways, because it is written from a first person's narrative, rather than from a third person's narrative. CJLippert (talk) 15:59, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined[edit]

Information.svg Hi CJLippert. Thank you for your work on patrolling new pages and tagging for speedy deletion. I'm just letting you know that I declined your deletion request for Assinibwan Indians of Montana, a page that you tagged for speedy deletion, because the criterion you used or the reason you gave does not cover this kind of page. Please take a moment to look at the suggested tasks for patrollers and review the criteria for speedy deletion. Particularly, the section covering non-criteria. Such pages are best tagged with proposed deletion, proposed deletion for biographies of living persons, or sent to the appropriate deletion discussion. Yasht101 03:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Note - G1 means something what children of about 2-5 years do with computer, e.g., cwbd hab cjk nwjbdchb hndxkjbehwcgwasIJH. This is patent nonsense. In short, if you understand something in the article, than G1 does not applay. Then you should look for G3. But there was something in that article, so not even G3. Now I have taken it to Assinibwan Indians of Montana. Cheers! Yasht101 03:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. CJLippert (talk) 04:37, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Dead link in article 'Wabigoon Lake Ojibway Nation'[edit]

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Speedy deletion declined: Non Federally Recognized Chippewa Indians[edit]

Hello CJLippert. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Non Federally Recognized Chippewa Indians, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: user wasn't blocked/banned when they created the article - needs to have been created "in violation" after a block to qualify (will PROD). Thank you. SmartSE (talk) 19:09, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

April 2012[edit]

Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute to the encyclopedia, but when you add or change content, please cite a reliable source for your addition. This helps maintain our policy of verifiability. See Wikipedia:Citing sources for how to cite sources, and the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Swampy Cree edits. Chip123456 (talk) 17:36, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Chip, I have reverted this removal of content on Swampy Cree. Not everything need be sourced, with some exceptions. This article is not controversial and is not a BLP. If there is a concern about sourcing, the appropriate thing to do is add the [citation needed] tag to the statements which are challenged, so that the editor can add sources. Wholesale removal of content, followed by templated warnings of the contributor (and CJLippert is a knowledgable and long-term editor here) is not the best practice. Kablammo (talk) 17:56, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Um, thanks? What was originally created was the stubbiest of a Stub article and then we had an abusive user creating articles on the frindge, of which one was called "Maskegon", to which we redirected it to Swampy Cree, and the abusive user then transferred all the fringe materials there. Then, the abusive user was banned from editing. I have been pecking away at this since to build an article, but with any IPNA-related articles, finding non-biased materials are extremely difficult. Nice thing about this is that more non-biased materials are found, more reliable sources are cited in those matrials, so the list of known reliable, non-biased sources grows. CJLippert (talk) 18:38, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Ok, although try to always add sources to the information you have!--Chip123456 (talk) 20:42, 25 April 2012 (UTC)



Pharos has been suggesting we have a picnic for this year's Great American Wiknic, around June 24 (WT:Meetup/Minnesota#Great American Wiknic for Minnesota in June), and nobody's come forward yet. Are you interested in organising, or do you have any suggestions? Thought I'd at least let you know, as Pharos contacted only me and Jonathunder (who's busy). —innotata 20:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I will be in San Antonio June 17~24. I would not be able to organize it, though if I were around, I would be interested in attending and help organise. Thanks. CJLippert (talk) 21:57, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I've set a date and place, and nobody's posted except to say it'll work, so suppose we're going with it: noon, July 7 at Minnehaha Park I'll at least bring signs and put them up at a spot. —innotata 23:52, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:BasilHJohnston.jpg[edit]

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:BasilHJohnston.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the file description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at the discussion if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 01:14, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia Loves Libraries event[edit]

Hi Charles,

There's going to be a Wikipedia Loves Libraries event at Minneapolis Central's Special Collections on November 3 (see WT:Meetup/Minnesota). Can you make it, and are you interested in possibly being part of an intro to Wikipedia editing?

innotata 02:26, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Wow!, been super busy in real life and have been taking a wiki-break. I am interested but I have other commitments that day. CJLippert (talk) 17:38, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Anishinaabe names for Germany[edit]

Hello CJLippert, you inserted here in the article Names of Germany a very interesting information on the different names of Germany in the Anishinaabe languages. Okay, that was some years ago. But do you still know a valid source for this information so I could insert it in the German article, too? In the internet I could only find the Ojibwe dictionary which has no information on the etymology. Thanks a lot. Eselohr (talk) 08:54, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll look around. I looked through all my dictionaries and I've found Aanmaa (the syncoped version of Aanimaa used in Eastern Ojibwe and in Odaawaa), but I may need to look through published elder interviews to find the other forms. CJLippert (talk) 17:28, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Making headway on assessment at WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America![edit]

There were 1800+ unassessed articles at Category:Indigenous peoples of North America articles by quality, now down to 1000+. Overall article quality is much better than I'd expected, thanks to all the hard work by folks like you! Perhaps you'd like to join in with us, or see if you spot a few to upgrade to B class? Djembayz (talk) 02:45, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Chippewas of Saugeen Ojibway Territory and Huron Tract[edit]

Patrick Lavalley Hello, I am new to the behind the scenes of the Wikiworld and I noticed some pages where my history and research specialties can beef up the information. I noticed your name attached to quite a many pages here so I feel you are the one to lean on for help at times. I am from the Chippewas of Nawash Unceded First Nation where I worked as Tribal Secretary Assistant and Minute Recorder from time to time. I have the largest private collection of chronological local history but what I excel in quantity I lack in wiki format experience. I have thousands of photographs and maps, and dozens of chronological pan-Nishnawbeg and Woodland history binders pertinent to the Saugeen Ojibway Nation. Just so as you are aware the two Bands, Nawash and Saugeen sit as a Joint Council under the political name Saugeen Ojibway Nation we do not use Chippewas of Saugeen Ojibway Territory. I find that the second term can only serve to confuse people who are not of SON and potentially cause unforeseen issues in the newsmedia. Under the national title Saugeen Ojibway Nation or SON we have a crest which is also on our flag. I would like to add much to all three pages and would like some advice from you so as to avoid being tagged as a vandal and banned from my own nation's wiki page. I also wrote a bit about my itended focus on the Indig. Project contributor page which doesn't nearly cover the cracks and crevasses of history I get into. In return, if there is anything history or research wise you need that is obscure or quasi-revisionist in appearance that will give context for how you proceed with articles my e-mail is — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick Lavalley (talkcontribs) 19:28, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

looking around for someone qualified to discuss issues in Cree nations CfD[edit]

Hi, I know you're a contributor on the Anishinaabe, wondering if your experience in that area can help resolve some really testy stuff going on at this CfD, because of someone who doesn't understand that "First Nations" in all its contexts and possible meanings...I'd wanted to change to Category:Cree governments, he maintains "nations" is less POV and "suspect" (LOLOL), someone else has proposed Category:Cree First Nations governments but to me that's redundant even if the bands do style themselves as "First Nations" (not all of them do); see Category:First Nations governments in British Columbia and note that if there are, as I believe there are, Cree governments in the US then the wording "First Nations governments" for that category is unworkable, same as it would be for "Sioux governments", "Blackfoot government", "Ktunaxa governments", "Haida governments", and as happens to be the case with Category:Coast Salish governments (or if that's not a cat, there's {{tl}Coast Salish governments}} I think). No other Canadian has been by the Cfd, or the others for St'at'imc, Nuxalk, Squamish and others (see May 3 and 4 at the CFD log).....hate being seen coming to recruit someone ("polling") but it's necessary to find someone familiar with the use of the terminology in Canada...NB is it just me, or have you also noted the use of lower-case "first nations" when used adjectivally, at least in reference to individuals?Skookum1 (talk) 10:49, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Not much to say. I agree with your points. The term "first nations" is an adjective, not a noun, and the majusculine form is used when part of a title. It can be used as a title to clarify if we're speaking of a municipal or district governments or Indian, Metis or Inuit governments. (Alaska has similar issue where you might have the XX Village and the Native Village of XX, where "Native Village" is used as a clarifying adjective in a title). Category:Cree governments would be perfectly fine if one would include the Chippewa-Cree Indians of the Rocky Boy's Reservation, Montana. Otherwise, if Canada-specific, then one would need a Category:Cree governments in Canada. The broader category would be Category:First Nations governments as it is specific to Canada, otherwise, Category:Governments of indigenous peoples of North America would be macro category. If someone wants to be anal about things, they can say Category:Status Cree governments (i.e. they have been recorded as having status to interact with the Crown on a government-to-government basis, which would be analogous to the US term Federally-recognized Tribe, which they have been published in the US Federal Register as having status to interact with the United States on a government-to-government basis). But now I'm on a side tangent, so I'll stop. CJLippert (talk) 15:06, 7 May 2013 (UTC)


Boozhoo Niijii,

I have an off-wiki thing to tell you about. Can you send me an email through my userpage?

Miigwech, Leo1410 (talk) 21:56, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Upcoming Wikipedia meetups[edit]

Minneapolis Public Library interior.jpg

In the area? You are invited to the upcoming Minnesota meetups.

To kick-off monthly meetups in the Twin Cities, two events will be held in Special Collections at Minneapolis Central Library this summer. These are mostly planned as opportunities for Wikipedians to discuss editing, but all are welcome!

Special Collections contains many valuable historical resources, including the Minneapolis Collection, consisting of files on hundreds of topics related to Minneapolis from neighborhoods to politicians (it's best to call or email in advance to request materials). Free wifi and several public computers are available.

Place: Minneapolis Central Library, 300 Nicollet Mall, Minneapolis
Special Collections (4th floor)
Dates: Saturday, June 1
Saturday, July 6
Time: 12:30pm–2:30pm+

For more info and to sign up (not required), see the meetup talk page.

This invitation was sent to users who were interested in past events. If you don't want to receive future invitations, you can remove your name from the invite list.innotata 14:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Cree governments/nations issue[edit]

I won't repeat myself here, please see User_talk:Good_Olfactory#Cree_categories_.28again.29. At some point in the next few days I'm gonna start an IPNA-based sandbox for the consensus re standards/organization for indigenous article and categories that is now being undermined by speedies and potshot arguments made by people unfamiliar with the subject matter, invoking "rules" which are not rules, and without any knowledge of the subjects they're affecting; I'll let you know the sandbox name when the time comes......this has caused so much havoc for what was a workable system, now with confusing and confused titles and resulting changes in context/language as people start bypassing redirects and retitling templates as well as categories, without knowing or caring anything about the subject matter.Skookum1 (talk) 02:10, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Squamish CfD[edit]

I find myself having to re-explain things over and over again, and having global guidelines thrown back at me as if they had no exceptions and were binding rules, which they are not; now it's being suggested that the whole category tree be deleted because of someone's dislike of "ethnic" categories: see Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_May_4#Category:Squamish, last few exchanges.Skookum1 (talk) 07:47, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

See my comments there. CJLippert (talk) 15:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

the core issue at that CfD.....[edit] a long ways from where I started boils down to the RM on the "ethno" article, and make no mistake about it, part of that decision was made to the speedy renames that Kwami pulled once OMR and I and others were not around, i.e. the "[anglicism] + people" name format. And no matter how many times I say it's not workable, someone else comes along who says the category name should be "Squamish" (nobody who knows anything about either the people or the town, of course). Everybody is not equal in Wikipedia, not about stuff like this for sure. Ignorance should not outvote knowledge, and mob rule is also not what consensus is about either (nor is consensus a "vote" though it's often treated that way). The point that category names don't have to match main article names is also valid and has been heard from others; but those who do not want to hear, will not. The problem now is that not just any ordinary admin is qualified to close it, nor would one read all the lengthy exchanges; or do a stupid, uninformed decision like the Cree nations one.....drafting a guideline and passing it is going to be a long haul; right now things are being decided singly, out of context, then those decisions are used to pretend there are "standards" when previous standards were run roughshod and now have to be hunted down in article and category histories. I've wondered about starting a sandbox for the unspoken guidelines that were in operation before the seeds of this chaos were sown by Kwami in 2011; and once again I bemoan the lack of admins and editors knowledgeable on the subject matter, and on Canadian political/cultural geography, who might take part otherwise; and noting also that as long as indigenous language/views are not represented, it will dissuade aboriginal editors and communities from collaborations on their own articles; that's certainly OMR's attitude, he just shrugs at the rename and the category fracas as more evidence of "settler" ignorance....Skookum1 (talk) 06:51, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Kwami also made Mi'kmaq into a dab page and moved the main content to Mi'kmaq people, as if the language and the writing system were equally primary usages, which they are not; I've heard over and over the "FOO people" is supposed to be the wiki-norm but it's not if you look around the various continents, not at all. And it was a formation we recognized as redundant and astylistic and not the most common form. Wikipedia too often concocts "norms" and "conventions" which affect the real world use of English, while at the same time ignoring conventions already established and previously discussed. Not just anyone should move categories and articles of this kind; Other than the Squamish RM which was at least an RM, all those Kwami did are theoretically roll-backable....I fought five of them very hard and won; it shouldn't have been necessary. The full list is daunting to build, which is one reason I haven't taken the time to make it; the summary of "our" old consensus I'll make a stab at soon; should it be on my own sandbox or one off of the IPNA pages somewhere?Skookum1 (talk) 07:13, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

sigh.....facts outweighed by opinions and speciousness (Squamish CfD outcome)[edit]

Posted this also on Usyvdi's page, I guess it's time to try and launch/establish those guidelines via sandbox.....probably I'll start with a table comparing all the names of articles, categories, templates etc......all the talk about consistency re "FOO people" and other such matters with no regard at all to consistency within indigenous categories/names seems to completely escape nearly everyone; and as always I'm made the issue, rather than the issues I present, as a way of ignoring those issues.Skookum1 (talk) 09:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

== sigh...... ==

the Squamish CfD yielded a completely unsatisfactory result; see User_talk:Skookum1#Category:Squamish_people and I don't buy Fayenatic's logic, though I do get along with him ;-). The "FOO people" nomenclature I remember the IPNA and also those working on the PacNW categories long ago was dispensed with as unworkable and often linguistically redundant; for lack of being able to find those old discussions, now archived and unindexed, all the discussions that led to the category structure and title conventions have been ditched by people imposing "outside" judgements, and while I did say I could live with Category:Squamish people that didn't mean I approve of it; it's anomalous now within BC First Nations categories; all of which were, if not for the success of the RMs that prevent them, were in danger of being made into "[anglicism]+people"......and the status of those articles before those reversions was used in the one RM that mandated t he Skwxwu7mesh->Squamish people change invoked those wrongly-renamed articles as evidence of "consistency". I still haven't had time, or stomach, to start that guideline sandbox, but at this point I feel this one needs to be appealed. There are always exceptions to "rules" WP:There are no rules seems to be simultaneously the most ignored, and simultaneously the most abused, of the Five Pillars. The end result is a chauvinistic outcome, in my opinion, with others dictating what is "most common" without any knowledge of the context, and without any regard at all for the fact that the primary usage of "Squamish people" is "people from the town of Squamish".Skookum1 (talk) 09:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what to say other than I feel for you. When working with IPNA topics, what you're encountering is all too common. I still have people sending me e-mails saying "Ojibway" is the proper spelling opposed to "Chippewa" or "Ojibwa" or in Ojibwemowin, Ojibwe. Then the Dakota articles have been experiencing back and forth in spelling due to different competing Roman orthographies. I think we settled on Lakota common orthography with minor adjustments for Nakota, Dakota and Dakhoda, only because Lakota being the dominate for of that group. Cree articles are now going through a similar facelift, with issues like "o or u", "double vowel or macron or circumflex", "sh or s-hachek". CJLippert (talk) 01:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
this isn't over, I'll start that table of articles/names I've been talking about; also noting that the use of "First Nation" meaning any one of several different contexts needs a guideline....i.e. "FOO is a First Nation in...." is used to mean government, community and reserve all at the same time, and as ethnicity....I went through the "Cree nations" category and emptied it last night, WP:BOLD; I saw no difference between that wording and just plain "Cree". For now all the band government articles relating to Cree peoples are in the Cree category, there's nothing stopping me from making Category:Cree governments but I'm going to apply myself to that table now, also to the list of speedied and unwarranted article changes......the "FOO people" thing needs to be resolved, especially when it affects category names.Skookum1 (talk) 02:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
that being said, I'm concerned non-educated interlopers will take part in the guidelines discussion but it's not like I want to do it by myself; would a sandbox off IPNA be better than off my own userpage?Skookum1 (talk) 02:44, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
For an example of non-nomenclature problems with many (many) articles, see the changes I just made here.Skookum1 (talk) 03:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
here is an example where "First Nation" in a lede is used to mean the reserve. I hadn't gotten around to the mass of Canadian articles to break them down and align them by government/reserve/community/people, there's so many like this in SK, MB, ON, QC...I made a start on Nova Scotia and mostly have BC covered that way, which was the upshot of those old discussions in IPNA so long ago.Skookum1 (talk) 03:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
I amended that one, note Kayoty's previous move from the IR name...without changing the wording.Skookum1 (talk) 03:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


I started it - Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Table of articles, categories and templates with only one people so far, it's gonna be a lot of work; any suggestions before I get going on the columns given or need for more?Skookum1 (talk) 07:49, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Also started Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Draft guidelines for indigenous content.Skookum1 (talk) 08:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


This was in the Salteaux category but I see only Ojibway [sic] in the content. Think there's a few others like this, "not my department" but know it's yours. Cote_First_Nation. and I'm not sure if that should have an accent at least on the E if not a circumflex on the O. It's not pronounced "Co-TAY" is it? Or "Coat"? Skookum1 (talk) 10:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Good question. I will go ask. Looking at Saskatchewan biographies, his name is shown without any diacritics, but if you search for all names ignoring diacritics, I see quite a few Côté and Coté listed. CJLippert (talk) 20:06, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
In Treaty 4, his name is listed as Coté, but that doesn't tell us if his name is pronounced "ko-TAY" or already bastardised into English as "KO-tee". CJLippert (talk) 20:16, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
I think most English Canadians would still say "ko-TAY" especially on the Prairies, not sure though. "Coté" is pretty obvious for teh -ay part I think.....between Metis and Saskais and manitobaines, lots of francophone legacy on the Prairies. BTW see on the IPNA talkpage the Starblanket section re the two FNs, and two different Chiefs Starblanket.Skookum1 (talk) 03:22, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
I moved it to Coté First NationSkookum1 (talk) 06:54, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Sandy Bay First Nation cats[edit]

There's a plethora of cats on Sandy Bay First Nation, some I'm sure are subcats of mind sorting 'em out?Skookum1 (talk) 06:41, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

problems sorting Quebec IRs/bands[edit]

I'm finding that the contents of Category:First Nations reserves in Quebec have names that aren't listed in INAC, not in those ways, anyway, e.g. Eagle Village First Nation - Kipawa was at Kebaouek, Quebec and I had to go to the French wiki to even get a hint of where it was; the inac link on that page, and on others, is defunct, and finding the French INAC directory/search ain't all that easy.......anyways also just found that Chisabisi First Nation isn't listed there either, wondering what other spellings that has; it has I think Longue Pointe, Quebec currently as its IR article; there's a Long Point First Nation in Quebec, but I don't know if it's the same one - in Winneway, Quebec, or at least there mailing address is there. Also the interwikis didn't move when the pages were moved; do you know anything about that?Skookum1 (talk) 14:07, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Er, OK, there's Winneway Indian Settlement at Winneway, Quebec and it's assigned to the Long Point First Nation here, and there address is in Winneway. Still doesn't quite answer my question about Longue Pointe (NB no hyphen) but my brain is tired; sorted out a lot today of things that should have been in one cat but were another, or were incompletely titled and more...(see my usercontributions), time for a break.....NB and NS I spent some time on quite a while ago, they should be more or less OK.......such complicated political geography, and I won't even know where to start to add which category to which band, so many different kinds of Anishinaabe/Ojibwe/Cree etc huh?Skookum1 (talk) 14:15, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Reserve and Settlement are different (or can be). Reserves are land set aside by the Crown for the First Nation peoples. They may have a Settlement or two on the Reserve. However, some Settlements are one and same as a Reserve. Other Settlements are independent of Reserves and have no lands set aside by the Crown. Some Settlements are located within a Community. Other Settlements are identical to a Community. Yet other Settlements only partially overlaps with a Community. Some Settlements share the same name as the Reserve and/or Community. Community is a Euro-Canadian community with government and can be a City, Township or Rural Municipality. Settlement is a legally defined indigenous community. So, depending on how the community is organised, it can be either a Community or a Settlement or both. Unfortunately, this can also cause great confusion. The best analogy in the US to a Canadian Settlement happens to be with the Alaska Native Village system. So, let's look into this a bit closer to see if the Winneway Settlement and the Winneway, QC are identical, two separate government system that are coterminous, or two separate government systems that just so happen to have the same name but are not coterminous in their boundaries. CJLippert (talk) 01:46, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Yes, and there's Villages too. One thing in the Communities in Ontario is the Waters of the Trent Reserve (linked on the Hiawatha page I think) which is a seasonal multi-people camp, I'm not sure it qualifies as a "community" either in the generic sense, certainly not in the capital-C sense (if there is one?). Indian Settlements, Metis Settlements, Indian Villages and more all exist, I'm fully aware of them, and yes hard to work out sometimes. A reserve is not inherently a community, basically - very true in BC - and communities can be more than one on a group of reserves (the Seton Band in BC has Ohin, Shalalth - Tsalalh - Nkiat and Slosh, and now Skil, on a group of IRs; most bands have several not-necessarily-contiguous reserves, those that are not contiguous are often remote and either hunting of fishing camps (e.g. Pavilion IR 1A - Pavilion Indian Reserve No. 1A which is nowhere near the main Pavilion rancherie and associated IRs.Skookum1 (talk) 12:02, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
and just to note your careful use of capital letters on terms, as noted elsewhere capital-T Town, City and Village need to be reflected as their meaning is different and more specific than the lower-case usages, which are purely descriptive/general.Skookum1 (talk) 12:08, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Sometimes IRs are so intertwined with a place it's hard to separate them out; though in many cases it's necessary to do so, e.g. the Kamloops Indian Reserves are within the City of Kamloops, but not part of its governance, Lillooet is surrounded by an agglomeration of reserves governed by three different bands, four if Fountain is included; but it would not do to integrate or merge the articles for a host of reasons. In the case of Moricetown such a place I think is totally IR with no non-IR lands/residents (not sure, never been there), though the IR titles there would be redirects to it; I think "we" did that with Telegraph Creek and Dease Lake also.Skookum1 (talk) 12:11, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


Can you see a way to work the name Anishinaabeg into the History section of this article? - as the last couple attempts have failed. Although if Potawatomi are Anishinaabeg the problem is much simpler. Wikipedia articles seem divided on that point. Pottawatami implies no, while Anishinaabe seems to say yes. Rmhermen (talk) 16:48, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I have worked worked the history section and got "Anishinaabe" worked in there. Let's see if this sticks. CJLippert (talk) 00:08, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
So is the lead of the Potawatomi article wrong then? Rmhermen (talk) 02:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Um, no. I guess I don't see what you're seeing. Potawatomi's range was more than just southern Michigan. They ranged from the mid-course of Thames River in Ontario westward, roughly the Grand River (Michigan) basin southward, very small (and insignificant) areas of NW Ohio, northern 1/3 of Indiana, northern 1/4 of Illinois and southeastern Wisconsin. After the War of 1812, Potawatomi were in all of eastern Wisconsin from Door Peninsula to all of the Rock River watershed, and spread all across the area between the Mississippi and Illinois Rivers in Illinois. While the population in Indiana and Michigan emptied out to 1/4 of their former numbers (supposedly) as the population escaped to Canada as refugees. Those in Indiana were eventually coralled onto Reserves and then relocated west to what today is Oklahoma. Those in Illinois were relocated west to what today is Kansas. Those in southern Wisconsin fled to northern Wisconsin and UP Michigan. Those in southern Michigan who weren't relocated for various reason are still there, while those who were relocated were also sent to Kansas. CJLippert (talk) 02:47, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
From Potawatomi article: "was applied to them by their Anishinaabe (Ojibwe) cousins." Which implies that Potawatomi are not Anishinaabe. Rmhermen (talk) 03:33, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Ah, but it also says, "Alternatively, the Potawatomi call themselves Neshnabé (without syncope: Eneshenabé; plural: Neshnabék), a cognate of Ojibwe Anishinaabe(g), meaning 'Original People.'" They are Anishinaabe/Eneshenabé, but not Ojibwe. Maybe a quick fix would be to reword that sentence as "...was applied to them by their Ojibwe brothers." as "brother" is the term the Council of Three Fires referred to each other. CJLippert (talk) 21:11, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


re this, it seems to me that in "the guidelines" usage of politically-loaded words such as this one needs some stricture......somewhere between two vague and WP:SOAP is how it comes across to me, using it in multiple contexts, and advanced with deliberate political intent.Skookum1 (talk) 02:48, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Minnesota Wikipedia Meetup on August 3[edit]

MN WikiMeetUp.jpg

In the area? You are invited to the upcoming Minnesota monthly meetup on August 3.

Place: Lavvu Coffee House
813 4th St SE, Minneapolis 55414
Date: Saturday, August 3
Time: 1:00pm-3:00pm+

For more info and to sign up (not required), see the meetup talk page.

This invitation was sent to users who were interested in past events. If you don't want to receive future invitations, you can remove your name from the invite list.

innotata 23:39, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Another K-Why? job Wuikinuxv/Oowekeeno[edit]

I'll save my breath, you know what's coming.... are you admin, can you revert this rogue monkey's doing? See my recent edits to the article in question, also Wikipedia_talk:Requested_moves#reversions_of_undiscussed_speedies_needed_-_NOT_more_RMs.Skookum1 (talk) 09:18, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Reviewer, yes. Admin, no. Will take a look. CJLippert (talk) 03:47, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
While I'm here, see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Indigenous_peoples_of_North_America/Name_issues#FOO_people_issues which I've just been working on/researching.Skookum1 (talk) 04:07, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Saddle Lake[edit]

I just moved the IR redirects for that article, which I've done some fixes "Blue Quills First Nation Reserve" the official usage/terminology? Or just a media usage? I changed it to "Indian Reserve" even though these will only be visible in Category:Indian reserves in Alberta as italicized entries...when making IR redirects to any article, please take note of using such categories when creating the redirect.Skookum1 (talk) 06:13, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

The AANDC lists it as "Blue Quills First Nation" and other literature calls it "Blue Quills First Nation Reserve". If it were listed by AANDC as "Blue Quills" then the assumed full name would be "Blue Quills Indian Reserve". I did find old, old documents calling that IR as the "Blue Quill Indian Reserve No. 127" or as "127: Blue Quill Indian Reserve". Additionally, I have been leaving "No." off the titles as AANDC leaves "No." off the titles. CJLippert (talk) 16:22, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
Yesm, AANDC lists is at "Blue Quills First Nation (Indian Reserve)" not "Blue Quills First Nation {Reserve). Note others in Category:Indian reserves in Alberta such as Kapawe'no First Nation Indian Reserve No. 150B or whatever it is; it's listed as "Kapawe'no First Nation 150B". Not "First Nations Reserve". Reserves named for the bands are common....and re the "No." granted that's the older usage, but still on maps, and used in the media, where you don't see e.g. "Seton Lake 7", you see, if it were to occur "Seton Lake IR No. 7". Dropping both IR and the "No." part was done in recent times; even when I started out in Wikipedia BC Names (BCGNIS then) was using "Seton Lake Indian Reserve 7" not without the "Indian Reserve" part.....MOSTCOMMON applies to all of these, nobody says e.g. "Pavilion 1" or "Tsuu T'ina Nation Indian Reserve No. 145"....they say "Pavilion Indian Reserve No. 1" or "Tsuu T'ina Nation IR no. 130" or some such (or just Tsuu T'ina Reserve, without the number. I've been adding "Indian Reserve" to all the titles because for non-Canadian readers, and people not familiar with INAC shorthand (which originated in the French form of the names, please note, and was and is not regular English, but "government-speak". The part on that page that bugs me is the claim that it was formerly called "Blue Quills Indian Reserve"....that's still the official name, the cite is needed to prove that "Blue Quills First Nations Reserve" actually exists, and isn't just a supplantation in some pc-driven thesis where "First Nations" is substituted for "Indian", which is way too common and misleading ,as is leaving "Indian Reserve" off the titles.....Skookum1 (talk) 18:03, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

BTW see Seton Lake First Nation and various others in BC, where I've added the latlongs with cites and also the GeoGroup template, which can also be put on categories with articles containing articles with latlongs in them....I haven't fully completed the St'at'imc set, think I did some of the Tsilhqot'in too....was just too laborious tonight/today to look them up on CGNDB and template and cite them....makes sense given how widely-spread apart IRs can be from teh "home reserve" and/or band office, easier to make GeoGroup available rather than try and come up with so many particular maps.Skookum1 (talk) 18:22, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Whitefish Lake First Nation[edit]

They're mentioned on the Saddle Lake First Nation page as another band council....I tried seeing where Whitefish Lake First Nation goes to, it's in your "turf" Atikameksheng Anishnawbek First Nation. There's an Alberta listing in INAC, though, should that maybe be a disambiguation page? And wondering about splitting off the one of the Saddle Lake FN page as it's a different government with different reserves Utikoomak Indian Reserve 155, Utikoomak Indian Reserve 155A, Utikoomak Indian Reserve 155B. Why are they on the Saddle Lake page at all? I've been creating various IR and band articles these last 48 hours, see my usercontributionsSkookum1 (talk) 06:17, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

There are three "Whitefish Lake FN": 2 in AB and 1 in ON. The one in ON is Anishinaabe. Whitefish (Goodfish) Lake FN, they are considered as part of Saddle Lake, so if you go look at AANDC listing of Saddle Lake's governance, you see both the main Saddle Lake's council and also the council for Whitefish (Goodfish) FN. We should consider creating a disambiguation page. Whitefish (Atikameg) Lake FN is also in Alberta and are also Cree. Whitefish Lake FN that is now known as Atikameksheng Anishnawbek First Nation is Ojibwe, but you will still find them often cited by their older name. CJLippert (talk) 03:13, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
K. I found out that the List of First Nations governments didn't have the full roster for various provinces, I've been filling in the gaps and occasionally changing some names per INAC and the band's website....I'm halfway through the Ontario list.....will try and finish that section, many names may be the same bands i.e. between those that were already there and the ones I'm adding as listed by the Yukon there are three separate listings that go "Champagne", "Aikishik" and "Champagne and Aikishik First Nations", apparently three separate governments, previously that page had only the third one. There's a Whitefish RIVER one in Ontario, I take it that's not the same as the one you mean?Skookum1 (talk) 05:49, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

"Mohawk foo"[edit]

I know Mohawk tribe was long ago changed to Mohawk people, and for a while it was Mohawk nation....that "FOO tribe" thing re US federally recognized tribes is the confusing issue here, apposite to the usual {{globalize}} meaning of "tribe" vs the USian legal's the parent category for Category:Mohawk reserves in Ontario and the parallel one for Quebec....In fixing the list of Ontario FN governments today and last night, there's a good dozen or more Category:Mohawk governments in Ontario (not sure if that category exists) but using "tribe" for them when it's used for US article and category names meaning "federally-recognized tribes" is a problem...Category:Mohawk is the most obvious place to go, like others, to remove the complications of using any of "nation", "tribe", "people(s)" or whatever else people have tried to come up with; the Wiki obsession with standardization and "consistency" means that things just aren't consistent, and can't be, when the language itself isn't consistent, especially from country to country and from people to people....Skookum1 (talk) 16:12, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I remember what may have noticed the deletion of Category:Cree nations, which I end-ran by removing everything from it and letting nature take its course..... that had much teh same problem as Tribe/tribe, other more complicated political overtones....but noting the existence e.g. of Category:Anishinaabe governments, (sp? -thought there's something like that somewhere) which matches the Dene, Tshilqot'in etc ones, is it time you think to estalblish "Cree governments", "Oji-Cree governments" etc? Not seemly for me to make Category:Cree governments I think. Or not?Skookum1 (talk) 18:25, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Quebec FN names[edit]

Hm Was going to expand/amend the Quebec section, but many of the INAC names are in French, even on the English-language sites. So what do we do? Publish the translated names, or go by the combination of band-site and INAC-site ones that works, more or less elsewhere?Skookum1 (talk) 18:11, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Redirects is the answer. But there may be several redirects. Unfortunately, though I hate to say this, AANDC name ought to be used as is, and then have all the name variations, from the communities' own names, found in literature and web sources that are the common/short names in both English and French. So, for like Nation Anishinabe du Lac Simon, as that is the AANDC name, that is where the primary article would be called. (But right now, it takes you the community of Lac Simon page.) The English name translation, I supposed would be "Anishinabe Nation of Lac Simon", while common names as "Lac Simon First Nation" and "Lac Simon Algonquins", and the native name as either the Fiero spelling of "Zimo-zaaga'igan" or the Cuoq spelling of "Simosàgaigan" with the local name of "Simosàgigan" (which in "Simosagigan" is the community page), and all those would be made as redirects. CJLippert (talk) 15:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
As per an edit comment on that section just now, ultimately the band's own usage on their homepages, if any, should be what's used; some have bilingual names, or rather a name in both languages. I gather some do not.....Kahnawake First Nation currently is a redirect to Kahnawake, which really is the reserve article; but INAC/AANDC lists them as Mohawks of Kahnawake (with diacriticals)...when I lived in Montreal in 1974-75 that was still Caughnawaga by the way. Btw I always say INAC because that's the core domain of AANDC's URL hierarchy...."Fiero" and "Couq", you've got me there LOL have never heard those terms that case, the native endonym, to me, makes more sense; interesting how the French, who can be so particular about maudits anglos not using French accents etc when writing/typing, will nonetheless re-jig native names without regard to the usage of the non-French peoples themselves.Skookum1 (talk) 16:35, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Lake Superior[edit]

Hello CJ. Can you visit Talk:Lake_Superior#Gitchigume? Your knowledge would be helpful. Best regards, Kablammo (talk) 11:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Kablammo (talk) 14:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Miigwech gaye giin, miinawaa. CJLippert (talk) 21:12, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

May wish to comment on Talk for God's River[edit]

I've added a comment at Talk: God's River about the renaming of the article to "God's River". You may wish to comment there. I'm assuming good faith and post here in a friendly spirit. --papageno (talk) 18:11, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your swift response. the article is now at Gods River. --papageno (talk) 14:40, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Merry Christmas![edit]

Afvcke Nettvcakorakko!

-Uyvsdi (talk) 22:54, 24 December 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Wikipedia Day Meetup on January 18[edit]

10 sharing book cover background.jpg

In the area? You are invited to the upcoming Minnesota meetup in commemoration of Wikipedia Day.

  • Place: Seward Cafe
2129 E Franklin Ave, Minneapolis, MN 55404
  • Date: Saturday, January 18, 2014
  • Time: noon

For more info and to sign up (not required), see the meetup talk page.

This invitation was sent to users who were interested in past events. If you don't want to receive future invitations, you can remove your name from the invite list.innotata 04:09, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Indian reserve cleanup and re Munsee-Delaware Nation[edit]

Have a look please over my recent edits (deletions) on Indian reserve, all by way of cleanup; whole page needs a re-think, I'm just doing cleanup...... but because the Munsee-Delaware case came up, I had a look around and, as is too often the case IMO, the band title is a redirect to the reserve title (which I'm gathering is also synonymous with Muncy, Ontario). I was going to put the band government category on the redirect for the band title, but it turns out it's built into the {{Union of Ontario Indians}} template and the template would look odd on a redirect...... as you know tghere's huge and confusing overlap between the meanings of "First Nation" as meaning government, reserve and/or people, and it's nearly impossible maybe to make sense out of the category structure at this point; too many cooks created a broth with way too many kinds of overcooked vegetables.Skookum1 (talk) 08:31, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

It isn't just a problem in Canada, but in the US, too. Currently, there is the List of federally recognized tribes where about 5 years ago, only a quarter of the articles went to the actual government pages, another quarter redirected to the reservations, and the remaining were all red links. With much effort, all the red links now have a stub government article, and slowly working to remove the redirects to the reservations. On the other hand, List of Indian reservations in the United States is still filled with red links and nearly a third goes to the government pages.
As the number of First Nations and their Reserves are far more plentiful in Canada than in the US, the task is going to take much longer. But the other kink in Canada that isn't faced too often in the US, is that you have communities (settlements, villages, etc.) that are too often also serve as proxy article for the reserve or for the First Nation. And those also need to be separated out. CJLippert (talk) 17:12, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
As for the Munsee-Delaware Nation, I have created a stub government article and to the template off of the reserve article CJLippert (talk) 18:02, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
Re US situations, I got in a bad war with a certain IPNA editor who was completely hostile to my separating out reservation names from government articles as redirects; "the people are the land" etc. Let's just say I backed out of trying to straighten out Nevada and its Shoshone overlap with California...what I was diong made sense to me but was characterized as "vandalism" by person in question....and yes, lots of Canadian bands have multiple reserves, often not contiguous and sometimes spread out over very wide areas, as with various Tsilhqot'in bands in BC; many Prairie bands have over a dozen, often in hame-number sequences but I gather widely spread out; in some cases in BC I've made IR titles redirect to the band, but also including latlongs so a GeoGroup template will display the locations; in other cases there seems to be only the one reserve for each band; but the redirects should at least exist so that the categories contain appropriate titles. Of the kind of thing you just did with Munsee-Delaware I was doing some of that in Ontario for a while, but not knowing the place it sometimes became difficult; the major amount of work in need of doing seems to be straightening out and/or stubbing the various bands/reserves in SK and MB....sometimes there's non-IR communities of course, and I remember that on ethno articles like Denesuline (wherever that redirects to - Dogrib?) there are often IR/community BC the complicating factor also is the new status of Nisga'a, Sechelt and Tsawwassen lands....Skookum1 (talk) 03:53, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

I haven't looked to see who wrote {{Union of Ontario Indians}} and ask them about adjusting it, but I'm of a mind to take the category off templates like that one, as it makes sorting categories a lot more complicated; Category:First Nations governments in Ontario should be a parent of Category:Union of Ontario Indians but I'm not even sure it exists yet. I think you may remember Category:Cree nations vs Category:Cree governments, I just looked in Category:Cree and note its contents include bands, reserves, communities and sundry; and I know if I look in Category:Cree reserves in Ontario that some will be government articles rather than IRs as such....there's enough to warrant either "Cree governments in Alberta" or "Cree reserves in Alberta" or both....problematic to sort reserves by ethno group because some are more than one ethno group; that's a little more clearcut in BC where cross-ethno reserves are rare (though they do occur, mostly Okanagan-Nicola and Ktunaxa-Secwepemc).Skookum1 (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

OK, I just had a look at Category:Union of Ontario Indians, it's a subcat of Category:First Nations organizations in Ontario, a subcat of which is Category:First Nations governments in Ontario. Figuring out the parenting hierarchy boggles me here; or would we define the "organizations" category as "organizations other than band governments"? Noting also that, say in BC, there are treaty councils that are distinct from tribal councils, sometimes with exactly the same membership, and there are also non-tribal council orgs like the UBCIC (which is mostly Interior bands). Tribal councils are not governments, though, I'd say that same about the Union of Ontario Indians and UBCIC. I hope you understand what I'm trying to sort out what to do here; to make these categories more navigable and better organized/ less confusing....but maybe that's not possible until all the IR/ governmetn / community articles are either stubbed or redirected. Inclusion of cats on templates like that one has just made it more complicated IMO.Skookum1 (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

And here's a question for you; I was just reading Union of Ontario Indians and it seems that it is synonymous with "Anishinabek Nation" - but it includes the Munsee-Delaware (Lenape) group; are they also Anishinabek ? and does the UOI style itself "Anishinabek Nation" and is there any risk of confusion with "Anishinaabe First Nation" or some similar name? Skookum1 (talk) 04:21, 15 February 2014 (UTC) Sorry to belabour this, my head is starting to tie in knots; on Waabnoong Bemjiwang Association of First Nations there's [[:Category:Anishinaabe tribal political organizations], Category:First Nations Tribal Councils, Category:First Nations governments in Ontario..... and also noting that "First Nations tribal councils" doesn't have to be capped, but I dread CfDs....I guess my main reservation is where "organizations" fit under what hierarchy, and should "governments" be a subset of that or a separate hierarchy?; and if so then Union of Ontario Indians isn't in the "governments" hierachy...... urg. There's a lot of stylistic language usage in various articles, as in Nipissing First Nation, that's a bit problematic, and given that different articles in different regions were written by different people...well, it's not like consistency has ever been possible....and again the jumbled use/meanings of "first nation", capped or pluralized or otherwise, makes a lot of things sound very awkward and/or confusing....Skookum1 (talk) 04:31, 15 February 2014 (UTC) for Mohawks of the Bay of Quinte, should this section on the Bay of Quinte article just be split off as a stub? Wound up finding {{ Association of Iroquois and Allied Indians}} after creating Association of Iroquois and Allied Indians and trying to fill out the what a massive undertaking to straighten out FN coverage in toto huh? Skookum1 (talk) 05:04, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

I'll take a look at the Shoshones and see what is going on. But Land is not the same as the People which is not the same as the Government. AN and UOI are linked but are not the same. AN is an advocacy entity while UOI is a political entity; both the AN and UOI articles needs to be cleaned up and beefed up. The Munsee-Delaware are part of UOI because they were placed on the Thames Chippewa's reserve, and only in the 1960s was the reserve carved apart to separate the Ojibwe and the Lenape; UOI existed before the divvying up of the reserve. Even today, the two First Nations' formal reserve areas form a solid block of reserve but the individual parcels may be with one FN or the other, forming a patchwork of FN jurisdiction. I have been trying to work on articles in Ontario but had been sidetracked by my real life. So, I have been working mainly on patrolling and doing occasional tweeks. There is so much to do and very little interest by the general public to contribute on indigenous peoples' related articles on Wikipedia. BTW, I am giving a presentation on this very issue in March at an Indigenous Writers' Conference to be held in Prior Lake, MN. CJLippert (talk) 04:54, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Essentially re the Shoshone I was finding reservation articles which doubled as government articles, and likewise were in the one category when they should have been in the other; I was attempting to rectify this by taking the reservation category out of the government article and placing it on the relevant redirect e.g. Wells Colony. Sometimes these redirects might even be in another state, namely California. User:Usyvidi took great offence to this and reverted a lot of my changes, with some nasty comments about me "vandalizing" the article and me not being native so I had no right to judge etc etc. I was making no changes to the articles, only trying to make the category hierarchies work out; such that the reservation/colony names would display in the reservations category, as italics, directed to the respective government article. There was more to it than this but you can see here how the conversation got wildly off the rails, I backed off and am keeping distance from trying to sort out anything else in the US in face of such determined resistance; I fail to see how putting reservation articles in government categories or vice versa is helpful at all, and the people=land equation when applied to categorization strikes me as both POV and SYNTH. A reservation is a geographic object, a government is a sociocultural one, there should be no blurring of lines based on the notion "America means the government and also the place", as if the two senses were one; yes, we do speak of nation-states that way; but when a "nation" is comprised of widely-separated and territorially disparate chunks of land it does not serve encyclopedic interests to speak of them in the same way as discrete nation-states. Needless to say in the case of the Mohawk or Anishinaabe this does not work well at all. I'll see if I can find the edit histories in question re the reversion war...... Most of WA, OR, ID and MT is properly organized, as best can be for now. And yes, I've maintained for a long time that if Wikipedia's indigenous content isn't inidegenous-friendly it does not serve well the goal of having indigenous communities take part in their coverage EXCEPT that it also means that indigenous editors have to contend with the POV/COI/AUTO strictures of proper wiki writing..... but allowances have to be made. I think I'm not the only non-aboriginal editor in IPNA, I've certainly done a huge amount out of trying to organize Canadian and BC indigenous-article coverage and language-use issues.....whether that earns me brownie points or an eagle feather I don't care, but it does stick in my craw when I get accused of bias or not understanding/reflecting the native point of view, or being told to bug off because I'm white, as happened in this case, or also in the Category:Cree nations debate and others.....whatever, I'm in Koh Samui again and shouldn't put too much stress on these matters anymore ;-D.Skookum1 (talk) 06:39, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Also re here...there was more on the IPNA talkpage and I think on montanabw's talkpage.Skookum1 (talk) 06:42, 16 February 2014 (UTC) Here, have a look at this category's contents and then this one. and then by way of example of the response see the history where I'd moved two geographic categories off this government/institution page and got smacked down for it with "restore article". And note that the reservation and geography categories listed here included places not in that county; many of these governments/"countries" are spread across more than one county, in some cases into another state (California). As example on Yerington Colony see this history where "restore redirect" was stated as though I had harmed the redirect, instead of simply placing a category on it, as per normal practice with categorizing redirects. Strikes me that WP:OWN is at play here, thing is if this is allowed to stand as precedent it invites chaos in the long run. I've backed away from this, but the acrimony towards me for simply trying to straighten out category usage logically was so very.....very..... uncalled for. It's at times like this I miss the wise, calm voice of User:Phaedriel and wonder how she's doing.....Skookum1 (talk) 08:27, 16 February 2014 (UTC)


It seems that my conversation with you here about the Nevada categories may have been observed by the person in question...that same someone has waded into BC's FN category trees and just thrown a monkeywrench by creating a category that was CfD'd away for good reason in May 2013 and doesn't care what was said or decided in that CfD or why, and glibly says ". If other editors have a problem with this action, please let them speak for themselves, which we are all capable of doing." They did speak for themselves, in the CfD and in the related RMs, and now one rogue editor has gone an upended it all over again; and precipitated what I think should be more than a CfD, but a mediation or intervention or a rollback, maybe an ANI even...this reminds me too much of Kwami's unilateral article-name changes and the "go stick it" attitude from him about all the RMs necessitated by his actions; And why FN category names should be protected by those who don't know the subject matter; background and who invoke wiki "principles" piecemeal and who don't care about the consequences of their actions.....what I see here point-blank is passive-aggressive bullshit of the first order...covert personal attack masquerading as a procedural energy/time waster. See [[1]]. So much work coming arguing for common sense here, and so no energy spent on the actual content of any of the articles affected, just more wikipedia name-games and blame-evading....Skookum1 (talk) 05:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

About the category, I found this bit - though about articles not about categories - which points to moving it back to its original Squamish-language name, diacriticals and all; "the Arbitration Committee has ruled that editors should not change an article from one guideline-defined style to another without a substantial reason unrelated to mere choice of style, and that revert-warring over optional styles is unacceptable.[1] If discussion cannot determine which style to use in an article, defer to the style used by the first major contributor."
I'd wanted a simplified non-diacriticalized version by between an RM tainted by bigotry and various non sequiturs that precipitated the speedy CfR that led to the CfD in question, the anglicized version of the name was mandated by consensus, despite the confusion with the town of Squamish that is the problem with the anglicization; and which is why Tsilhqot'in and Category:Tsilhqot'in are not at Chilcotin or Chilcotin people (though that is a direct to Tsilhqot'in) and various other examples; Category:Skwxwu7mesh would have been unambiguous but there's not enough PRIMARYTOPIC indications for it, though other parellel endonyms are now common in Canadian English (St'at'imc, Nlaka'pamux, Sto:lo etc). The original form was Category:Sḵwx̱wú7mesh, which was also the title of what is now Squamish people.Skookum1 (talk) 05:34, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm waiting to hear from User:Fayenatic London, who was the decision maker on the CfD, and Good Olfactory, who is the category maven. See here and it makes me wonder, if she can do what she's done, why I shouldn't just go create Category:Skwxwu7mesh on my own...but who do you think will get dressed down for impertinence first?Skookum1 (talk) 05:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
I feel for you. I actually have been taking notes on all this I have seen across the WP:IPNA and this is what I will be presenting at the Indigenous Writers' Conference next month, and try to see what the audience reaction is, and get suggestions on not only encouraging more native peoples taking ownership of article contents (including what they call themselves even when speaking in English), but also brainstorming ways to have WP:IPNA articles be more robust without having this squabble on names, categories, etc. I would rather have lack of categories and links until the article is robust enough, and then go in and work out the those wiki-politics issues later. But, that's me. You (and all WP:IPNA topic editors) face this discouraging problem, which causes many to just not participate anymore... not worth the heartache, but you and I and handful of others have stuck it out. And it's ugly and sad on what we are subjected in our quest to provide quality content. But hang in there. You can't be thanked enough for all of your efforts. If I ever get a chance to get to BC, I'll need to buy you a much deserved beer. CJLippert (talk) 20:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
make that Lamai, Koh Samui, where I've moved back to to escape the Great Cold Country and its harsh ways and difficult culture/people. What gets me with this Skwxwu7mesh/Squamish thing is that Usyvidi is herself an indigenous activist, here unknowingly advancing a colonialist nomenclature. It also gets me that issues of this kind can be interloped upon by people from distant lands whose knowledge, if any, of the topics/titles they are commenting/deciding on is marginal at best. This is why Kwami was determined to replace Kwakwaka'wakw with Kwakiutl - ?!?! - and presumably Nuu-chah-nulth with Nootka - and in all cases of that kind (Lillooet/St'at'imc) went on and said things about them being parochial about their local interests/culture and how they weren't in a position to decide what was appropriate to call them. I remember long ago when "we" all decided to avoid the use of "people" as an ajdunct to stand alone titles e.g. Haida vs Haida people, Mi'kmaq vs Mi'kmaq people and all that stood in place for a long time..but all it takes is one editor, not even an experienced one, just one with move privileges, to come along and upset the applecart. My attempts to codify category/main article name guidelines for IPNA were shoved aside and criticized, including by Uysvidi, and yet here she barges into BC and starts throwing around half-baked logics and mis-using "First Nations" in title suggestions and showing no sign of respecting someone from the area (be it me or OMR, or in CambridgeBayWeather's case he's in Nunavut, but at least in Canada). What's also getting me is the number of times an AfD or CfD or RM has gone off the rails and my valid suggestions put aside because I "talk too much" or "criticize other editors". How can I not criticize people when they're wrong, either in motive, logic or in information, and how can I not use a lot of language to explain complex problems...TLNDR I haven't seen in a while, but to me that kind of thinking is the product of a culture given to short attention spans and simplistic thinking.Skookum1 (talk)
In this case it's a collision of wikipedia guidelines being applied out of context, valid information being glossed over or even wilfully ignored, a complete lack of knowledge of the subject matter affected...and people wading in where they don't belong/have no experience. I'm of a mind to launch another Skwxwu7mesh/Squamish RM, but also -because of Uysvidi doing what she has done in BC category-space, going back to the Nevada tribe/reservation categories and doing what must be done, and then taking her edit war to ARBCOM or wherever...more drama, I think like Kwami she might be one of those who feed on it; me I don't feed on it, but it's easy to get me gnawing on a bone for your indigenous conference presentation, you might mention how indigenous people from one area often wade into other areas and make pronouncements and judgements that are off the wall, and use the wrong language because they haven't taken the time to get to know anything about where they're commenting on; this was the case in CJ studies, where the Grand Ronde OR crowd had shibboleths about native history in BC that were cribbed from what had happened in Washington/Oregon Territories but were completely wrong, same as with how early incarnations of the Chinese Canadian history pages transferred things from the California experience of the Chinese in BC that were also just plain wrong; fabrications in fact. I don't think that many US indigenous activists really appreciate how intense native political realities in Canada are, how numerous are the people, how dominant on the landscape in much of the country, Interior BC, the North etc, but also how much the interface between native and "settler" culture results in name conflicts like Skwxwu7mesh/Squamish....Skookum1 (talk)
The Nanaimo Indian Band invented the term Snuneymuxw (s- at the start marks it as a Hulqiminum noun, -muxw means "people" ust like '-mesh" in Skwxw7umesh snichim or 'imc in St'at'imc) which like Kwakwaka'wakw and Nuu-chah-nulth and Sto:lo are all modern inventions meant to replace the mis-taken "white" terms Kwakiutl, Nootka adn "Fraser River Indians" (long ago, nearly all Halkomelem speakers, including the Skwxwu7mesh who are not, and the Tsawwassens and Semiahmooos and who also are not Halkomelem speakers) were "Cowdigin", the old spelling for Cowichan which now refers only to the group of peoples in the area of Duncan/Cowichan Valley. Anyways what I'm getting at is the way that sometimes and indigenous person who thinks they are the high and holy light wades in somewhere without knowing what the frig they're talking about..... and it plays both ways, quite a few times I've had asides to OMR and others about gaffes they've made about stereotypes of EuroCanadian origins and European thing I know about the human condition - ignorance is universal, just like arrogance.Skookum1 (talk)
I don't know if you'd care to weigh in on the Squamish CfD or the Carrier RM, but so far CambridgeBayWeather and I are the only Canadians in the CfD; anything you could say about the "Squamish (First Nations)" titles being suggested would probably help.....these people seem intent on causing more confusion, not ending it....and it might help at this point, even while this is raging, to restoke that effort I'd started to come up with naming guidelines re endonyms and other matters as a set of guidelines derived from IPNA to take to MOS and get codified....I have to get ready for a job interview in another town nearby, hopefully I'll get it, I got out of BC as soon as I had airfare and a couple of months' expenses and thought I had at least on ESL client lined up, but though we're on friendly terms his company revenues have evaporated and I have to go find something else to survive on.....but "better here than there" ...especially when I see all the snowfall comments from friends in Canada these last few days. current temperature is 29 degrees, "feels like 32" and it's sunny and kinda much better than 29 below....and yet here I am, living in paradise, and still working on Canadian wikipedia topics/articles....and finding myself being insulted for knowing/talking too much. I've joked, only partly in passing, about there being a Wikipedia guideline that says "if Skookum1 talks too much, then whatever his proposal in a CfD or AfD or RM should be ignored/thrown out". It's really a very feeble line of argument and I get tired of hearing it; it's really a personal attack but those making it aren't very good at looking in the mirror. But it's become so common in AfD/RM/CfD commentaries/decisions that I'm thinking it really should be a guideline, along with "if you want to win against Skookum1, throw him as many repetitions of illogical statements and half-baked facts and off-kilter abuses of guidelines as you can, and you'll reve him up to the point where not only will no one listen to him, the mere fact that he's taken part will devalue anything he has to say, no matter how valid". Maybe you can help me make that into "point form" :-DSkookum1 (talk) 03:38, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


ongoing CfD matters[edit]

See User_talk:Good_Olfactory#what_procedure_when_someone_unilaterally_overturns_a_CfD_outcome.3F and User_talk:Skookum1#suggestion.Skookum1 (talk) 05:02, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Also here.Skookum1 (talk) 05:11, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

a game two can play....[edit]

I got around to trying to fix up the overburden on certain rez/tribe articles, starting with those in Category:American Indian reservations in California; not quite done but I'm tired; and what has to be done next is to through the tribes category and remove titles that don't belong there, also.... and note, there's a lot of parent/redundant categories all over all of these; Category:Native American tribes in California, Category:Federally recognized tribes in the United States (what other kind are there?), Category:Federally recognized tribes in FOO County, California...... mumbling about revamping category hierarchies when the current ones haven't even been patrolled/used properly is really quite funny IMO.Skookum1 (talk) 16:25, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

In the US, there are 3 levels of indigenous peoples: Federally recognized tribes in the United States, State recognized tribes in the United States, Unrecognized tribes in the United States (the 3rd one is not clear cut and really dicey, as some are legitimate indigenous entities without any recognition from either the Federal or State governments, while others are indigenous peoples heritage groups without a government structure, and yet others are fraudulent non-indigenous groups only claiming to be indigenous). This is a rough parallel to Canada's Status First Nations and Non-status First Nations. Because of these three grades of recognition, a tribe in California may or may not necessarily be a Federally recognized tribe in the United States. Additionally case can be made for California, Oregon and Oklahoma for a specific subcategory as those three states have more tribal governments than any other states in the US... with the exception of Alaska, where there are more Alaskan Native Villages there than in the lower 48 combined. However, breaking categories down to a county/parish/district level would not be productive as there wouldn't be enough tribes to make the category be worth existing for navigation purposes. CJLippert (talk) 16:40, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
all I can say, from seeing a lot of these pages, is there's a lot of redundancies e.g. subcats of Category:Native American tribes in California like Category:Mono tribe displaying on the same pages; category-clutter, whether caused by a category tree in need of simplification or just overcatting may vary from case to case.Skookum1 (talk) 17:15, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

[[post edit conflict] ::Part of the problem is the small-t and large-T meaning of "tribe" in the US, acting in combination with the lower-case "rule" in Wikipedia, we see a lot of "FOO tribe" and sometimes meaning only a group, never constituted as a capital-T we also have this problem with Category:Mohawk tribe and Category:Blackfoot tribe, where the "tribe" usage, normally for a federally-recognized USian Native American people, winds up being on a parent category for peoples whose majority is by far in Canada where "tribe" is not a useful term. Why Category:Mohawk might not work, or Category:Blackfoot (OR Category:Blackfeet) remains open to debate....but given the calibre of debate available, not much point to's just odd seeing so many "stacked categories" on various articles, especially when three "tribe" categories also have a "reservation" category....and some geography categories despite tribes not being places as such..... whatever, I'll wind up doing all 49 other states before I get around to the OK corral...but seeing some comments about not wanting to take on revamping category structure coming from the same person who waded into the BC category structure without knowing fuck-all about what she was doing just strikes me as.....more of the same. It's quarter to midnight, I've been waiting for a young friend who hasn't shown up who was supposed to come over after work...and motorcycle accidents are way too common here....and I've been "fixing California" for hours now.....I changed the CfD to be more direct about the intended result, and underscore the unworkability of using "Squamish" no matter how they want to dress it up with a disambiguation of some kind...and of course because I "talk too much" (to shut down stupid ideas is why, especially when they get repeated over and over again and all originate in the same pit of ignorance...)..... it'll wind up being "no consensus" and Uysvidi will have had her way creating a category name that should have been put to quick death the first day it was born.....thus does it come about the "politely" spoken stupid ideas win the day over vehemently-spoken correct ideas. Weasely-ness wins the day over common sense and the facts on the ground...and those who know tgeh actual material in question and use the categories involved, which none of the kibbitzers do....Skookum1 (talk) 17:15, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

new Ojibwe cats[edit]

their intent is cross border, but I wonder if there's a conflict with Anishinaabe named categories and also about creating Category:Cree governments and if so should it be a subcat of Category:Ojibwe governments which I just created; and there's Category:Ojibwe reserves and reservations which I haven't fully populated yet (lots of governments article have reserve/reservation categories which should go on the redirects. In regard to other fun and games, check out this and this; people who can't admit they're wrong and get all huffy and insulting in response is something I now associate with too many wikipedians. Suffice to say "Blame Skookum1" is getting tiresome as a reason to the points I make on the CfD and related RMs.... those who complain the loudest about NPA and AGF are often the worst offenders themselves, even though they may couch their insults in less direct language (though she has been very direct, as has the other editor that deleted bit was addressed to). So much childishness, so little real work getting done.....see my comments about indigenous name RMs on the IPNA talk page. The systemic chauvinism of Wikipedia's in-group culture is really bothersome and kinda repulsive.Skookum1 (talk) 04:01, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Odawa IPA[edit]

Is this correct - /oʊˈdɒwə/ - it's given as what's in Canadian English; I'd venture that's the indigenous language pronunciation..... isn't it "AWdawa" in English, like the city only with a "d" pronunciation (not that a lot of us don't pronounce the city that way huh?).Skookum1 (talk) 04:49, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

In "Nish-lish", Odawa is not pronounced like "Ottawa" but with "d", but as what the IPA suggests: /oʊˈdɑwə/ ("oDAWwuh"). Plus, "Odawa" is a Potawatomi spelling that is readily used in modern English. In Ojibwe spelling, it would be Odaawaa or in Algonquin spelling Odàwà. This is another case of English emphasis shifting to a different syllable than in Anishinaabemowin. Here are some more: E:"GITcheGOOmme" v. O:"gihCHEE-gahMEE" (for gichigami), E:"noKOHmiss" v. O:"NOOkomis" (for nookomis), E:"TOHtem" v. O:"dohDEYM" (for doodem). CJLippert (talk) 14:57, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Interesting....but I was referring to the opening vowel - like "ah" or "oh"?Skookum1 (talk) 15:01, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Opening vowel is "oh". CJLippert (talk) 15:06, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

lateral thinking needed[edit]

or some such term; CambridgeBayWeather started a discussion on "what the guidelines say" at NCET which could use a fifth party (more like twenty parties, as other than CBW and myself the two editors present are hostile to me and one in particular is hostile towards WP:NCET itself, being the author/lobbyist who made the changes to WP:NCL that were used (often before the passage in question's addition); in reply to a certain comment from said person I launched Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(ethnicities_and_tribes)#re_the_group.2Fpeople_stubs_and_why_it_is_they.27re_not_developed.2C_and_what_can_be_done...Kmoksy has taken up the campaign with me.

I'm encountering some very obstinate and wiki-lawyerish opposition to unique-town-name moves, not always linked to various ethnographic title-moves......many have been closed in favour of the town as primarytopic - a good seven if I remember, or more; and WP:CSG#Places and Canadian usages in general are being dismissed as "this is not Canadian English Wikipedia, this is English Wikipedia. the RM at Comox, British Columbia got closed without proper result, and immediately someone else began, also including Comox in the newer RM at Comox people which like other FOO people RMs is garnering obfuscatory claims; CambridgeBayWeather has agreed with me that the town article RM should be reopend alongside the two at the current one. A friend has arrived, later.Skookum1 (talk) 13:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Please see my comments on CBW's and Skeezix's support votes on the Comox people/Comox RM, and also the last section on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes) re "the old consensus"...a nd the way things used to be in Wikipedia. Similar comments have been made in my response to Fayenatic's threat to block me long-term on my own talkpage. Also see comments I've made on Wikipedia:Wikilawyering.Skookum1 (talk) 06:32, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

input needed on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes)[edit]

Please see my proposals here, said points being ignored/stonewalled and in spite of the nuisance ANI filed against me by the same person who won't answer me here.Skookum1 (talk) 04:54, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

File source problem with File:HistPineCoMN.jpg[edit]

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Great horned owl help[edit]

Hiya - could you check this edit [2]? IP address only, making changes to Anishinaabemowin spelling: reckon it needs an OK from knowledgeable editor. Cheers, Vizjim (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

That is a good edit, etymologically speaking. Misspelling originally on my part. Etymologically, wenjiganooshiinh is the initial change from of onji-ganoo (which makes onji-ganoo become wenji-ganoo) with the aviary suffix -si that has the contemptive suffix attached to it (where -si + -nh = -shiinh). CJLippert (talk) 16:04, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

WP Indigenous Peoples of North America in the Signpost[edit]

The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Indigenous Peoples of North America for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. –Mabeenot (talk) 22:13, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Your help desk question[edit]

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Source please[edit]

Could you please provide a source for your contribution to the Koshkonong, Wisconsin article? Thanks. (talk) 02:51, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Just be patient, getting around to it. I'm bouncing between two articles. CJLippert (talk) 02:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, wasn't following all your edits. ... Ah, I have a copy of that source, but didn't think to look in it. Thanks. (talk) 03:04, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

creation–evolution controversy[edit]

An article you have edited List of participants in the creation–evolution controversy has been nominated for deletion. See FYI --Kaptinavenger (talk) 07:41, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Edina edit-a-thon[edit]

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A barnstar for you![edit]

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Nomination of Jackson Rancheria for deletion[edit]

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Invite to the Minneapolis Institute of Art[edit]

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--gobonobo + c 20:23, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Copyright violations at Melanie Benjamin (Ojibwe leader)[edit]

Greetings! I've reverted your edits to Melanie Benjamin (Ojibwe leader) because it uses text copied from There is no evidence of a free license on that site; the notice "Copyright © 2014. Mille Lacs Band Of Ojibwe" is presumed to be an all-rights-reserved license.

If the band wishes to donate the material, they'll need to contact Wikipedia directly to release it.

As for rewriting the material, the issue then is that the band's website is a primary source; Wikipedia prefers secondary sources in biographies.

Don't get me wrong: the article needs improvement. However, copyright violations are not the way to do that. —C.Fred (talk) 19:51, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I highly disagree. I have received notification from the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe Government Affairs Office regarding materials they pass to their media relations. The biography that was approved for distribution to their media relations and to other services is copyright free. However, the web service that manages the contents of the tribal government's website puts a copyright notice on all their pages, regardless if the content on the specific page is actually copyrighted or not. If you are looking only at that website, I understand why you have the impression the language used is copyrighted. And that is exactly the impression that they do want to give. I haven't been told which portions of the web page content is actually copyrighted and which portions are not, so I cannot comment to that. But knowing this situation, I asked and heard direct back from their Government Affairs Office, and that particular office have confirmed to me that their current Chief Executive's approved biography language itself is copyright-free. CJLippert (talk) 23:41, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
The problem is, the Volunteer Response Team needs to receive the notification directly from a band spokesperson that the material is under a free license. If the material is under a free license, they can either post the biography somewhere on their website with a notation that the text of the bio is under a free license, or they can contact Wikipedia directly via email.
There is a further issue that the "approved biography language" is not neutral: it omits entirely her removal from office after the allegations made by the band's solicitor general. However, that's something that can be solved by adding to the article, once we get the copyright issue sorted out.
Since it's a disputed removal, I've escalated the situation to WP:Copyright problems to get some expert eyes on this. Obviously, an email to VRT would short-circuit the process, so if your contact in the band's Government Affairs Office—or whoever is sufficiently high enough up the authority ladder to release the text—can confirm the release/donation, that would clear up the concerns. —C.Fred (talk) 01:28, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

November 2015[edit]

Copyright problem icon Your addition to Melanie Benjamin (Ojibwe leader) has been removed, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:34, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Managing a conflict of interest[edit]

Information icon Hello, CJLippert. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with some of the people, places or things you have written about in the article Melanie Benjamin (Ojibwe leader), you may have a conflict of interest. People with a conflict of interest may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. For information on how to contribute to Wikipedia when you have a conflict of interest, see the conflict of interest guideline and frequently asked questions for organizations. In particular, please:

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Please familiarize yourself with relevant policies and guidelines, especially those pertaining to neutral point of view, sourcing, and autobiographies. Thank you. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:35, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Invite to an edit-a-thon at the Loft Literary Center[edit]

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Proposed deletion of Blue Sky, Blue Sea, Inc.[edit]

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Speedy deletion nomination of Treaty with the Ottawa, etc.[edit]

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ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open![edit]

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Hello. Here's an event happening soon. Might you be able to make it? Jonathunder (talk) 14:57, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

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May 2018 Minnesota User Group Meeting[edit]

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  Date: Sunday, May 20, 2018
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