User talk:Cavila/Archive2

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Geoffrey of Monmouth

Hey Cavila, as one of the users who helped clean up this embarrassment, could you have a look at the current discussion going on at Talk:Geoffrey of Monmouth? A user has criticized the article's slant, and has touched on a lot of the things that were discussed at Brut y Brenhinedd last summer. Cheers,--Cúchullain t/c 18:28, 5 February 2010 (UTC)


It really is Manchan I promise you, there is no fada is his name. I wond't know how to write the IPA of it but the pronunciation changes drastically.

Just check out some of the more recent secondary sources used in the article (T.M. Charles-Edwards, Gerard Murphy, Aidan Breen, etc.) for yourself and you'll find that all of them prefer to use the early Irish spelling Manchán, with the fada. It may be contrary to your own experience, it may be contrary to usage in local media, but our guidelines insist that we adopt the common usage preferred by reliable secondary sources written (in English) on the subject.

I will have some sources in time for the sculpture in the parklands and also Kevin O'dwyer. These pages are not finished.


I would also like to point out that you should really check your Irish before placing down translations etc. I can provide this if you wish.

I didn't translate that stanza myself (though the Irish there is relatively straightforward), as you'll discover when you look at the citation.

What else? I'll be doing a piece on Durrow in the coming weeks. Be careful of the Catholic sources as they tend to be biased towards the Roman Church's viewpoint. Lets work together to make it really authoritative yeah? I'll be on top of those sources asap and I do have an book which is specifically aimed at the Offaly Monastic sites. Review of Stories from a sacred Landscape Disgracedminister (talk) 16:25, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry, the bits from the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia - if that's what you mean - were there before I started work on the article. That's actually how most articles on saints start life. They're like placeholders waiting to be replaced with more suitable material. Cavila (talk) 23:14, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Irish genealogies

Hi there. I was wondering if you might be interested in creating or contributing to an article on the Irish genealogies (pre-Norman?). Since I'm fairly new to "serious" Irish studies (about 2 years) and my experience only that of an amateur, my reading is fairly limited. I have read some of O'Donovan, Meyer, MacNeill, Dobbs, O'Rahilly, Kelleher and Ó Corráin, but don't have the all-important O'Brien and am not terribly competent as far as the manuscripts. You are aware that I've made some use of them anyway as Rawlinson and Laud can be found at CELT.

I'm not suited to introduce the subject or probably structure an article at this point. Could you? Will you think about it? DinDraithou (talk) 05:44, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi DinDraithou! Thanks very much for your post and so sorry for responding so late and showing no sign of life at all during the last week or so, but I'm a little busy in 'real life'. Starting an article on pre-Norman Irish genealogies sounds like a wonderful idea though and one in which I would have loved to participate had my situation been different. It would be useful to say something first about the place of genealogical senchus and then quickly move on to the real subject at hand, i.e. the development of the written tradition, as witnessed by the major genealogical texts such as those preserved in Rawlinson B 502 and the Book of Leinster. The latter would probably involve discussions about the influence of the Old Testament and invasion myth (Lebor Gabála), the 'mechanics' (single-line vs 'branched' pedigrees) and most importantly, the role of the genealogies in asserting political authority or affiliation. The saints' genealogies and the Banshenchus may be dealt with later. Ó Corráin's 1992 Carroll Lecture "Creating the Past" (available from CELT) looks like a good basis to use. I don't have the superb edition by O'Brien on my shelves either, but I'm just lucky enough that my favourite library has. Well, these are just a few thoughts. I'll get back to it as soon as possible. Cavila (talk) 13:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
The next step was to ask Fergananim to come in with his magic and with Duald Mac Firbis and extend the tradition into modern times. But alternatively he could create the article and then you could come in with your magic and discuss the development of the written tradition. I have just suggested that to him here. You said you are busy, but I'll bet you already have something substantial forming. DinDraithou (talk) 18:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi Cavila, Fergananim here. In the article Early history of Ireland I added 'genealogy', 'the irish nations, '[obscure peoples' and 'the irish genealogical dogma'; at 'Irish people 'Prehistoric and legendary ancestors'. I consider Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh my best article. If any of this is in your line of expertise, drop me a line and we'll talk shop over a few beers! Fergananim (talk) 19:16, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi all! I've been working somewhat on the pre-Norman genealogies, if only at a slow pace and piecemeal. I'm sorry to say I had to get a number of other things off my chest first, including Ronan of Locronan, some citation templates for regularly used sources, and Rawlinson B 502, one of our manuscript sources for our little subject. I'll get Ó Corráin's "Irish Origin Legends and Genealogy: Recurrent Aetiologies" from the library today, which should fill in a niche not presently covered by the sec sources that I have to hand. Keep up the good work, guys. Cavila (talk) 12:56, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Bast rather than the deliberately corrupted name

Hi 83d40m. You've recently moved Bastet to Bast (mythology) simply by copying and pasting its contents. I don't know if you're new to this sort of thing, but performing a copy/paste move is not done around here as it messes up the edit history. Further advice can be read at Help:Moving a page. Also, you may not be aware that the page had recently been moved from Bastet (mythology) to Bastet, following a request and a discussion at its talk page. I've reverted your edits, but if you're under the impression that Bast is the commonly preferred name in reliable sources, you're free to propose a move at the same talk page. Thank you, Cavila (talk) 14:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up and notice, Cavila.

I have made such changes previously without it being a problem... but, notice that some topics are more sensitive than others for such changes.

Yes, I would like to change the page over to Bast since the term "Bastet" was a diminutive applied in the eighteenth dynasty by the scribes of the temple of Amun as they promoted their deity in an assent culturally at the expense of other deities that had to be diminished in order to effect the changes.

The change to the diminutive form marginalized a deity that had a long history under another name, who could not be suppressed (as they would have pleased). I question choosing the late change of the name intended to suppress other deities, as the name by which Wikipedia identifies the ancient deity. I encourage adopting the authentic name of the deity from before being marginalized -- as the best characterization of the deity. Using the diminutive Bastet for an article about Bast is taking a "fierce lioness" and identifying her as a "pussycat"!

Bast was one of the most significant deities in Ancient Egypt, being similar in importance to Sekhmet in the other region of the eventually united culture. Even when reduced to the level of the domestic cat "Bastet" is represented as holding a mask at hand, always ready to demonstrate the fierceness that abides in all felines, no matter how tolerant and loving -- the mask reminded all that none could deny the potential that the original deity exemplified -- nor the original and long standing identity of the deity, Bast.

The name "Bastet" did not exist at the time the article asserts, from the third millennium B.C., when Bastet begins to appear in our record... this simply, is incorrect.

The location of the cult center was Per-Bast because that was the name of the deity. Trace the antiquity of that name and note that it is never "Per-Bastet". The Greek interpretations of the name of the city exist from the last five hundred years of the ancient culture -- after three thousand years of traditions. We need to stress facts that are accurate and meaningful.

Our article clearly reflects the historical differences, but previous editors have used the name of marginalization as the appellation from the beginning of the article instead of naming the article to reflect the original and long lasting name, and changing to the marginalized name after the historical change during the eighteenth dynasty. This is not a short period of time. It is a significant period, involving many centuries of time, indeed, a couple of thousand years into historical records -- surely Bast deserves recognition as it was at the beginning and full development of the cult rather than as it was being corrupted, so to speak.

One image of the deity -- clearly depicted as lioness -- is labeled "Bastet" the pussycat name... this simply, is incorrect.

If others support the change to the most ancient and longest used name, let me know and I will follow what ever process is necessary.

I am dragging all of this to the article page for further discussion, please respond there to keep all on one page and I will watch for your reply. ----83d40m (talk) 01:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I've responded to your response at the article's talk page. Regards, Cavila (talk) 10:23, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Saint Ronan

What's the plan for St Ronan "the Silent". At the moment we have an important Breton saint not covered, making the material about Locronan, one of the most important of Breton pilgrimage sites and visitor attractions, rather less intelligible than before. The disambiguation page idea was a good one but needs carrying through. I'll redraft and link him to the disambiguation page unless you have immediate plans. He can be Ronan the Silent or Ronan (Breton saint) to distinguish him. I'll translate some of the Wikisource stuff for incorporation soon. Does this make sense? Sjwells53 (talk) 10:06, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment, S.J. Wells. The old article was archived for possible later use and the plan was pretty much shelved. Until just now! See the article at Ronan of Locronan, which isn't anywhere near comprehensive but neither is it a stub. There's an article by Daniel F. Melia which I'd like to use for the section on the saint's pardon and some discussion on the possibility of Ronan's Life being a model for that of St Rumon of Tavistock may be appropriate, though I'd like to turn my attention to other matters first (as you can see above). To be continued ... Cavila (talk) 15:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I like what you've done. It needed sorting out for a long time. The original article on the many saints called Ronan was just a list, and my additions of a couple of years ago had unbalanced it. It makes far more sense to put the list on a disambiguation page, and the Locronan saint clearly deserves a proper entry to himself. Can't see myself getting back to Locronan this year, but I will check my archives to make sure we have the best possible resolution on the photos.Sjwells53 (talk) 16:34, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Middle Ages CFR nomination

Is there is a typo in the rename target for the last of the categories which you listed at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 March 7#Middle_Ages? See my comment there. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:06, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

/* Thanks */

Many thanks for helping my students with their work on Caedmon's Hymn! Cheers, Redcknight (talk) 18:45, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

No problem, I wish I had more time to sort a couple of things out, but hopefully it's been a good learning experience for your students! The one thing that makes Wikipedia unsuitable for academic courses is probably our guideline which screams out "No original research", but then again reading up on a subject and trying to organise all that into an article-length overview/summary must be a useful exercise anyhow and not an easy one at that. P.S. Not sure if this page, a translation of the Finnsburh Fragment, happens to be the work of one of your other students, but per said guideline I had to delete the content and create a redirect to the main article. It's still available for viewing here though. Regards, Cavila (talk) 11:02, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Battle of Finnburch

Hello, i put back the last edition of the artikel. I'am not agreed you made a redirect. I am sorry, but i do not understand. Greetings --Anneboer (talk) 21:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Anne, nice to speak to a Frisian wikipedian. A tale about a battle which was supposedly fought by Finn's men in Frisia is known exclusively from two Old English poems. This is already discussed at some length in the article for the Finnsburg Fragment. For that reason there really is no need for yet another article dealing with the same 'events' and sources. Cavila (talk) 11:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
You are right about the other article, but why not turn it one and cut out that part and make it article about the battle bigger. --Anneboer (talk) 17:33, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Sure, that would 've been another option, though I'd prefer to keep things more centralised. Two articles should be enough. Cavila (talk) 23:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite of Gearóid Mac Eoin

Thank you for re-writing problematic content at Talk:Gearóid Mac Eoin/Temp. I am concerned, though, that parts of the current temporary page read like a paraphrase of this copyrighted material. You may want to consult Wikipedia:PARAPHRASE for advice and opinions on rewriting pages with copyright problems. Happy editing, Cnilep (talk) 18:52, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

See my reply at the relevant talk page. Also, you may want to inform User:Fergananim, who was responsible for copying the contents of the website. Cavila (talk) 20:52, 6 April 2010 (UTC)


Cross of Saint Alban

Hello, Cavila! I am seeking your support for WikiProject Mercia, a collaborative effort which aims to create, expand, and maintain Mercia-related articles. If you'd like to help, please vote here. All feedback is appreciated! Thanks!

Metabaronic (talk) 21:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the invitation, much appreciated! But I've never signed up for any WikiProject, probably because I've never had much use for them. Anyhow, don't forget to notify User:Mike Christie and User:Ealdgyth, to whom we owe a fair number of well-researched and well-written articles on Mercian kings and ecclesiastics, including some of GA and FA-status, like Coenwulf of Mercia. All the best, Cavila (talk) 22:31, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks! Metabaronic (talk) 21:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

vikings or Vikings

Thanks for copyediting Dubgaill and Finngaill - a bit discouraging to see how much you had to fix but serves to remind me that the dictionary embedded in FF only helps me to write a word correctly - not to write the correct word (literary/literally etc). Are there any fixed rules in English (or Wikipedia) as to how "vikings" should be written. I have noticed that it seems to be spelled "Vikings" around Wikipeda and tried to stick with that, but a also see that Downham, Dumville etc write "vikings" (but "Viking Age"). Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 13:01, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Good question. Capitalised Vikings are common enough in sec. lit. (see e.g. Ireland and Scandinavia in the Early Viking Age', ed. Clarke, et al), but I can see why Downham and Dumville would go for decapitated lower-case vikings instead. They definitely have a point, but I'm not sure whether such practice has been widely adopted. Cavila (talk) 13:15, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Merriam-Webster seem to suggest that a "Viking" was a pirate Norseman, while "viking" is anyone going a-viking (sea rover). The problem of course is that vViking is mainly used in a broader sense today - denoting anyone related to Scandinavia during the "Viking Age"... Finn Rindahl (talk) 13:25, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Indeedie, Downham uses it broadly to cover all "people of Scandinavian culture who were active outside Scandinavia", regardless what their 'ethnic' origins and their daily business may have been (Danish, Anglo-Scandinavian, etc.). Because it is not an ethnic term, she's probably right to use "viking(s)". Cavila (talk) 13:59, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Talhaearn Tad Awen

Updated DYK query On April 22, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Talhaearn Tad Awen, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 00:03, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Peredur Lynch

Hey, brilliant work. I don't know if you read my post at the Welsh wikipedians' notice board, but the notability notice was one example of a stalker at work. Result - the article is vastly improved. Diolch! Deb (talk) 09:15, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, your appreciation is much appreciated. Fortunately I don't see any newer developments of hounding after yesterday, at least not by this particular IP, so let's hope that's the last of it. Cavila (talk) 11:43, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


I've raised his edits at ANI. Dougweller (talk) 20:12, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

OK so, good to see it's been picked up so soon! All the best and sleep well, Cavila (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Saint Editha/Edith of Polesworth

Hi. I notice you moved the article earlier today and I'm wondering whether it should be at Editha of Polesworth rather than Edith of Polesworth. She seems to be known as Saint Editha rather than Saint Edith. Just a thought. Cheers TheRetroGuy (talk) 14:06, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Hiya, most reliable sources actually call her Edith (or Ealdgyth) of Polesworth and so per WP:Article title that is the usage we are expected to adopt for Wikipedia. An example is the source I've included under "further reading" (Alan Thacker) or Nunneries and the Anglo-Saxon Royal Houses by Barbara Yorke. You'll probably find the "Editha" variant on the websites which are presently used for the article, but those 'sources' fail the necessary criteria and certainly do not meet the standards of said works by established scholars. If only I had the time to actually improve the article (I'll put it on the list). Cavila (talk) 14:43, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
No worries. I hope you don't mind, but I added Editha as one of her alternative names as there are several places dedicated to her in that name (the Church of St. Editha at Tamworth being one example). I grew up in the local area and remember someone coming to my school to give a talk about her - a few years ago now so I've forgotten much of it. I remember it was quite interesting though so I hope you do get a chance to improve this article. Good luck anyway. Cheers TheRetroGuy (talk) 10:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
That's fine. I've just rewritten the article to at least better reflect the current state of scholarship, though there are a couple of sources to which I don't have (easy) access and there is some scope for a discussion of (still) later medieval sources. I hope it's a more enjoyable read, too. Cavila (talk) 08:16, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for expanding it. Definitely a more interesting article now. You've jogged my memory a little bit, I certainly remember hearing the story of the marriage to Sihtric. Cheers TheRetroGuy (talk) 20:13, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the link

That was great! I loved the boundary walk; I've often visualized something like that and it was great to see it, though frankly I'd have been happy to see even more of the details. For example, how confident can we be that the woods and hedges are still in the same place? Surely that path near the tumulus can't be the direct descendant of the army path? And so on. But it was fascinating. I was still living in the UK in the early 80s, but I didn't own a TV until about 1986, so I missed a lot of good stuff. Thanks! Mike Christie (talk) 01:44, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, his confident remark that "anyone can do it" is probably stretching things a bit, especially given the kind of research that's been done so far on charter bounds, but it's good fun and well, not too shoddy compared to many Discovery programmes these days (*shudder*). The army-path was probably a high-way by the early 10th century, not necessarily one used for military expeditions, but that's a minor squabble and irrelevant as far as topography goes. I didn't see the series either until it was uploaded at YouTube, so I was delighted. If I may ask, why exactly did you leave the UK (you can also e-mail me if that kind of information is not for the 'general public' - I know I prefer to remain anonymous)? Cavila (talk) 08:42, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
I married a Texan in 1988; both my parents had passed away while I was still in my twenties, and I had no extended family except my sister, so we decided to move to Texas, where the cost of living was cheaper. We were both trying to become sf writers and the deal was that the first person to sell a story could write full time -- the other had to get a job. Sherry sold a story first; I only ever sold one story before quitting writing. We were in Austin for twenty years and then I moved to New York a couple of years ago, which is where I am now. The problem with having lived for decades on both sides of the Atlantic is that you become dissatisfied with both countries. I'd like to live in a cross between the UK and US; it would have British beer and cheeses, California wines, good Tex-Mex food, pubs rather than bars, a Ramblers Association and lots of country walks open to the public, the National Trust, baseball, football (soccer, that is), British weather (mostly), edible food in almost every restaurant you try (that's a vote for the US side, if you were wondering!), American customer service and standard of living, New York, and London. I guess I'll just have to get rich and own a house on both sides of the pond. Mike Christie (talk) 11:04, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
That's quite a story. It's been a while since I last heard anyone long for the British weather, but then I guess the odd Texan tornado really puts things in perspective. The middle of the Atlantic hardly sounds like a good compromise, but who knows, there might be a market for island-building. Plenty of room. Cavila (talk) 15:16, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer

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Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, will be commencing a two-month trial at approximately 23:00, 2010 June 15 (UTC).

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under flagged protection. Flagged protection is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial.

When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious vandalism or BLP violations, and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see Wikipedia:Reviewing process). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.

If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. Courcelles (talk) 19:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Jaski, the Psalter of Cashel, and Flann mac Lonáin

Hi there Cavila! I'm not working on ancient Ireland anymore but would like to clean up a few articles I created and contributed to when I was still pretty new to a lot of the material. Remembering a poem from the Book of Leinster attributed to Flann mac Lonáin mentioning Crimthann mac Fidaig and Mongfind and their people,[1] I googled Flann's name plus Dáire to see if I could find the elusive translation of it I might once have come across somewhere. No luck, but I did discover a preview snippet about it from an article I was not aware of the existence of, Bart Jaski's The genealogical section of the Psalter of Cashel. So I googled that and found that I can buy it for a ridiculous price online, but also discovered User:Cavila/Workspace3, where you have it listed, in the same search.

I want to clean up Dáire Cerbba and all related articles I may or may not have over-filled with the zealous spirit of John O'Donovan, my real introduction to the material. Then I later got a hold of David Sproule's two articles Origins of the Éoganachta and Politics and pure narrative in the stories about Corc of Cashel and may or may not have done further damage with them. I don't know enough to know. Sometimes I edit while drinking/drunk. So with your knowledge, how does Dáire Cerbba look to you? Is he imaginary? DinDraithou (talk) 17:55, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Hey Din! I'm sort of taking a wiki-break, which is to say I'm buried in work atm (in 'real life', as they say around here), but I'll dig up the article for you and see what else I can do over the next week or so. In haste, Cavila (talk) 19:52, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


Woohah, I can see why some of these ancestors may seem like ghost figures moving around without any sort of explanation! The poem ascribed to Flann, Maiccni Echach ard a ngle, asserts that Fidach was a son of Dáire (Cerbba) and less controversially, that Crimthann was a son of Fidach. Jaski mentions this (in a footnote) to show that readings found in 'redaction Q' of the Éoganacht genealogies are echoed elsewhere. Three different redactions are considered:

Table 1: Éoganacht genealogies: redaction P

Redaction P: group of seven early poems on seventh-century Munster dynasts and their ancestors. This section is found in three manuscripts (Rawlinson B 502; BB and Book of Lecan). Table by Jaski, "Psalter of Cashel", p. 335:

                                Fiachu Muillethan
                                Ailill Flann Mór
                               Fiachu Fer Dá Liach (Fiachu Óele?)
                             │                                          │
                      Ailill Flann Bec                    Degloth/Dathluath/Deochluad
                             │                                          │
      ┌──────────┬───────────┴──────┬──────────────────┐                │
  Fidach     Maine Munchain   {Dáire} Cerbba        Lugaid         <descendants>
      │          │                  │                  │                │    
      └─┐        │                ┌─┘                  │          ┌────┬┴────┐
  Crimthann  Fiachu Fidgenid    Maine              Conall Corc   Dau  Dá  Dedad
                                  │                    │  
                                  └─┐           ┌──────┴──────┬────────────┐
                             Eochu Liathán  Nad Froích  Cairpre Luachra  <others>
                                                │             │
                                           <four sons>       Maine

Table 2: Éoganacht genealogies: redaction PC

A redactor responsible for introductions to pedigrees of Cathal mac Finguine and Anmchaid. Table 2 by Jaski, "Psalter of Cashel", p. 336.

                               Fiachu Muillethan (alias Fiachu Fer Dá Liach ?)
                               Ailill Flann Mór
                               Ailill Flann Bec
  Fidach     Maine Munchain   Dáire Cerbba        Lugaid 
      │          │                 │                 │     
      └─┐        └─┐             ┌─┘                 └─┐  
  Crimthann  Fiachu Fidgenid    Maine              Conall Corc 
                                  │                    │  
                                  └─┐           ┌──────┴──────┬────────────┐
                             Eochu Liathán  Nad Froích  Cairpre Luachra  <others>
                                                │             │
                                            <two sons PC3>  Maine

Table 3: Éoganacht genealogies: redaction Q

Later redaction in a section on the descendants of Éogan (CGH 195), added (presumably by a Munsterman) to a collection of Irish genealogies. It is here that Dáíre Cerbba becomes a more prominent figure. The redactor also mentions a number of variant readings (not represented below). There's in fact a good deal of confusion about where to place Dáire Cerbba in the genealogies. Table 3 by Jaski, "Psalter of Cashel", p. 337:

                               Fiachu Muillethan, alias Fiachu Fer Dá Liach 
                              Ailill Flann Bec                      Ailill Flann Mór
                   Dáire Cerbba                                  Lugaid
   ┌───────────┬─────────┴───────┬──────────┬─────┬────┐      ┌────┴──────┬────────┐
Fidach   Fiachu Fidgenid   Eochu Liathán  Dedad  Dau  Der   Conall Corc  Lugaid  Cathbad
   └─┐                                                   ┌────┴──────────┬───────────┐  
Crimthann                                             Nad Froích  Cairpre Luachra  <others>
                                                                  Maine (Munchain)

And just when you think you got the hang of it, the confusion appears to be much worse: "it is quite certain that divergent and intermediate redactions existed apart from P, PC and Q. The resulting confusion appears to have puzzled later redactors as well" (Jaski, p. 315). Hope I haven't discouraged you. All the best, Cavila (talk) 21:15, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


Thank you so much! In fact this encourages me immensely because it appears to contradict the claims of a few authors that the Uí Fidgenti and Uí Liatháin were regarded as Dáirine/Érainn, not that there's anything wrong with that. Kelleher says they were added to the scheme in the latter half of the 8th century but appears to have made that up now, and since that was in 1967 I'll bet he's the one they've all been following. The Eóganachta still barely knew what they were about in the 7th century so this new reading says at least to me that Maine Munchain and Dáire Cerbba were definitely kin to them in some way. Then there is the case of Crimthann, and Fidach has been noted to resemble Fidgenid, and other Fiachus exist in these trees too. Plus it just struck me that the suggestion anyone descended from a Dáire or claiming it must be Dáirine should also apply to Lugaid, always associated with Dáire in the mythology. So maybe the Dáire argument is nonsense, or they're all Dáirine/Érainn, who just happened to know some people in Britain and Gaul and got all haughty. Everybody knows the cycle of Mug Nuadat, Ailill Aulom and Éogan Mor is wild nonsense. Finally I'm perfectly happy to be descended from the most obscure of the four sons of Ailill Flann Bec, namely Maine Munchain. He has the nicest name. Then there is St. Munchin, associated with Uí Fidgenti territory, which once extended into Clare as well, where he is supposed to have been born. What do you think? Thank you so much again. DinDraithou (talk) 21:48, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

It must be him. They are even pronounced identically. His ghostly brother inserted himself and stole his progeny, and then Maine became a bishop. Although in one genealogy the result is "Maine Cearb". DinDraithou (talk) 22:19, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't have Kelleher to hand at the moment, but it may be that he took his cue from Liam Ó Buachalla, who in 1952 ("Contributions towards the political history of Munster") regarded 'redaction Q' as the original version and so postulated the hypothesis that the Uí Liatháin, etc. were of the Dáirine, or Corcu Loígde. And as another of Jaski's footnotes usefully tells us, there's apparently a section in the Book of Lecan, probably related to Q, about the Érainn, which incorporates the six lineages springing from Dáire into its scheme. Such claims, however spurious, may have been powerful tools in the creation and maintenance of alliances, though who knows how all this worked in practice. Anyway, I'll send you scans of the relevant pages. Cavila (talk) 09:04, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Done! Thank you! That sounds fascinating and what went on with the Dáirine and Eóganachta is a remarkable mystery. The legendary material and BCC suggest the former were at one point immensely powerful but by the start of the 8th century they are obliterated. Next thing you know we find them in the wine and piracy business, with no real memory of how they lost it all. What a strange little group of people. Even in the legends they come across as off. BTW in case you don't know there appear to be descendants of the last O'Driscoll lords of Collymore in Spain and the United States, who theoretically could reappear among the chiefs some day. That must be the oldest family in the western hemisphere. It is unbelievable they still exist. DinDraithou (talk) 19:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Oh and I don't have Kelleher either but you can see some of it.[2] At one point there were multiple previews of the same book available and it was possible to read the entire article as well as many of the others. DinDraithou (talk) 19:23, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi! I have just created a new email account and sent that to you. The other one is too silly for "serious" business like ghostly ancient Munster. DinDraithou (talk) 01:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


Hemming's Cartulary is now at FAC ... here. I've put you and Deacon as co-noms. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:18, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


If you want to see something scary, have a look at Donnubán mac Cathail's family. Ever heard of Ress/Ressad? DinDraithou (talk) 23:21, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't ring a bell I'm afraid. I just did a Google search and it turns out that the place-name recurs in the early tale of Conall Corc and the Corco Luigde, which is embedded in the Laud genealogies and according to Charles-Edwards (ECI), may have been written down at Cloyne. The saint and founder of Cloyne, Colmán mac Lénéni (or mac Léiníne), d. 606, is here held responsible for the fact that the walls of the city [civitas] of Ress[ad] had fallen one day. The text uses the Latin word maledictio (from the Latin source text?), so we are probably meant to assume that he pronounced a curse of some sort, as saints are so fond of in this period. Does that mean that the Uí Chairpre/Uí Fidgenti were subjected with some help from a saint? Colmán is a figure of some importance to the Éoganachta, but was himself of the obscure Rothrige [3]. Really, I should look into any of this more carefully, but you‘ve tickled my curiosity. I'm sure all of this is discussed in greater detail in another book by Paul MacCotter, Colmán of Cloyne and you were probably aware of all this through his Medieval Ireland (which I haven't seen, but it looks extremely useful). Cavila (talk) 11:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Comment: The passage only mentions Colmán because he is included in a triad, the three or four ex-laymen/ex-warriors (ath-laích) of Ireland, meant to illustrate something about Óengus mac Nad Froích and his dealings with one of these guys. As an aside, the use of a triad here is quite interesting because the monastic school at Cloyne is believed to have had some part in shaping the Triads of Ireland, or at least I vaguely recall so. Cavila (talk) 11:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, well, it's been a slow succession of gnomish edits, but I now hope to have clarified some points in the slightly revamped article for Colmán of Cloyne. I could't go too deep here without burning my fingers on WP:OR nor have I properly quarried my sources, but I guess it 'll do for now. As for Ressad again, the Onomasticum Goedelicum lists a few further attestations under resad: "cath R. fought by Tuathal Techtmar against Aitheach Tuatha of Coiced Gailian, Lec. 590; ¶ Faelan mac Cormaic ri na nDesi 7 Flathri Mac Allamaran ri Ressad, Z. 367; ¶ cath Ressat in Lein., Lec. 39, Lg. 143, Fir. 49, Of. 302; ¶ rí Ressad, Cg. 72." [4] Cavila (talk) 19:40, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Actually I wasn't aware of any of this! Thank you! MacCotter is a great source but he doesn't cover everything, and in fact then goes on to do some unfounded guessing at the end of his coverage of the Uí Chairpre. He says that the Uí Dhonnabháin must have been relegated by Brian and the Uí Chléircín advanced as kings of Uí Chairpre and Uí Fidgenti. But he misses the mention of Cathal mac Donnubáin as king of Uí Chairpre in the Leabhar Oiris and appears to base everything on the death of one Uí Chléircín king of Uí Fidgenti in 1013 (AFM). They provided one known king of Uí Chairpre who died in 1045 (ALC), and are nowhere at any time noted for being warlike, unlike the Uí Dhonnabháin. When the Uí Chairpre begin reappearing in the 12th and 13th centuries they are clearly led by the Uí Dhonnabháin. Back to the 10th century MacCotter doesn't seem to get that Donovan more or less held his ground against the Dál gCais, surely explaining the presence of Cathal on Brian's side at Clontarf. Admittedly we probably owed 97% of our position to the poor Norse of Limerick who were in true need of friends, but these are minor details.
Ressad in 980. One first thinks Donovan might have been demoted but both his known sons were at least kings of Uí Chairpre, while the kingship of Uí Fidgenti commonly rotated. My growing belief is that the Uí Briain just let it go, having other concerns, and Cathal did support them at Clontarf. I wonder is something nice actually meant by rig Ressad? Like rig Temrach? I notice the entry immediately following it in AI is Mors Domnaill h-Ui Neill, rig Temrach. So what if the genealogy is a mess? Besides the Betha Adamnáin refers to Laippe and he was an Uí Chairpre dynast, later claimed as an ancestor by the Uí Dhonnabháin. When I get a look soon at Herbert and Ó Riain I will be able to beautify the discussion in that section, I hope. DinDraithou (talk) 23:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
I have come across small hints that Donovan may have belonged to a discard sept of the Éoganachta proper, to Raithlind or possibly even Chaisil. They may mean nothing or be errors but we'll see. Would explain some things. Will get back to you. DinDraithou (talk) 02:46, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Alright. I could have just waited but felt the need to leave that note for some reason. Now I don't have Herbert and Ó Riain's Betha Adamnáin yet but preview snippets of it can be searched for Donnuban and Laippe.[5] Then it turns out a translation was done by Joynt a century ago.[6][7] The passage is on 99 and goes "And he took the kingship over the Hy Fidgenti from Flaithbe of the race of the sons of Erc and from his children for ever, and gave it to the race of Laippe of the Hy Echach of Munster, because he had slain Dungal son of Fergus." Now from what I can preview it seems Herbert and Ó Riain are convinced this refers to the Laippe in the Uí Chairpre pedigree, but they say it was also a name among the Uí Echach or Éoganacht Raithlind. What they do not appear to bother about, or know about, is Donovan's very deficient pedigree, and may make too little of his close alliance with Máel Muad mac Brain of the Uí Echach. They also may not have been aware that the genuine Uí Chairpre may have been defunct since the late 8th century. Possibly the Uí Chleircin were actually Dál gCais? Uí Chonaill?

By accident I then came across the old topographical poems:[8][9]

Cuid Dál cCairbre Eabha áin
do ríoghaibh Caisil chleathbháin,
fa buan a tharbha don tír,
an stuagh Ó calma Cléirchín.

The share of the noble Dal Cairbre Ebha,
Of the kings of Caisel of white wattles,
Lasting is his profit of the land,
The brave pillar O’Cleirchin.

Dual d’Ua Dhonnabháin Dúin Cuirc
an tír-si ‘na thír longphuirt,
fa leis han chíos fán Máigh moill,
is na cláir síos go Sionoinn.

Hereditary to O’Donnabhain of Dun Cuirc
Is this land, as a land of encampment;
To him, without tribute, belonged [the land] along the sluggish Maigh.
And the plains down to the Sionainn.

I was truly surprised to see the O'Donovans so clearly separated from the O'Cleirchin and Uí Chairpre. Then I have recalled this is found in Mac Carthaigh's Book too:[10] "MCB1177.2: A great war broke out between Domhnall Mór Ó Briain and Diarmaid Mór Mac Carthaigh, and they laid waste from Limerick to Cork, and from Clár Doire Mhóir and Waterford to Cnoc Bréanainn, both church and lay property. The Uí Mac Caille fled southwards across the Lee into Uí Eachach, the Eóghanacht Locha Léin fled to Féardhruim in Uí Eachach, the Ciarraighe Luahra into Thomond, the Uí Chairbre, the Uí Chonaill, and the Uí Dhonnabháin into Eóghanacht Locha Léin, and to [the country] around Mangarta."

Dun Cuirc. According to O'Donovan in his notes this was a bardic name for Bruree, but as far as I know this is unsupported. It appears to actually refer to a fort some distance to the east and probably in Tipperary, being mentioned in CGG as a place where Mathgamain encamped (p. 116).[11] This might give the O'Donovans a power base well outside Uí Fidgenti and in Éoganacht Chaisil territory. And it cannot be ignored how they are associated with the MacCarthys in the annals only a decade after the death of Domnall Mór Ua Briain, and continue to be so from then on.

Finally, it may be too late a source but there is a poem from 1639 celebrated the accession to the chiefship of Clancahill of Donal III O'Donovan. In that he is called a descendant of Corc and the Scottish poet exhibits confusion about Donal's ancestry in general. But it is contradicted by the poem claiming his father Donal II O'Donovan to be a descendant of the ghostly Dáire Cearb from four decades before. Multiple traditions? I am sure you are absolutely sick of all this by now but I am sending you the poems in an email anyway! The Scottish one, a special treat in any case, was kindly scanned for me by a joint editor of Scottish Gaelic Studies herself, Dr. Nancy McGuire, as recommended by the excellent Emeritus Professor Colm O'Boyle. I currently live in a rural area in the United States and can't thank them enough, or you enough. So what do you think? Am I imagining things? DinDraithou (talk) 15:15, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Have located the original passage (bottom of page).[12] Who really knows? DinDraithou (talk) 18:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Just a brief note to say thanks for all of that! Much appreciated. I won't be around much so I'm afraid I'll have to respond at a more convenient time. Don't wait for me though :-{ Cavila (talk) 12:38, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Too much, I know. I got really excited. But don't worry, I'm not waiting! Sometime, hopefully in the next few days, I'll be taking my first trip to the Library of Congress, the greatest in the United States. I've checked Worldcat and they have everything I need there. Thank you for your help with Ress/Ressad. It was an Uí Chairpre king, Lonan, whom Saint Patrick visited according to the Vita, and whom he disagreed with and cursed, but then his brother Cenn Fáelad (Kinfaela) was the one who "became Christian" or whatever the terminology, and he became the ancestor of the Uí Chairpre.
I've now almost convinced myself that we were intrusive and took over the government. Uí Fidgenti rotated like Cashel, and Donovan is never named king of Uí Chairpre himself, except in CGG, which is too late to rely upon. Probably he installed his sons there. Surely Ress is key but the problem may be unsolvable. Should we associate it with Dun Cuirc and maybe look further east? Or look south? I no longer think it has to be in Uí Chairpre. DinDraithou (talk) 20:38, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Michael of Zahumlje

Hi Cavila! I have done some minor edits to further improve the article, and I hope you approve them. BTW, can you provide some wiki or internet link to De administrando imperio, ch. 33, because I still can't find that his family belonged to the Litziki (Λιτζίκη)...although I have found that he came from Poland and from the River Vistula. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 15:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi Kebeta. Looking good as far as I can see. The only gripe I have is with dating his reign. We know when he first appears in the record and when he last does so, but that's all there is to it and Runciman does not appear to be suggesting anything else. It's probably safest to give his floruit as 913 - 926. Precisely why John V. A. Fine Jr assumes that his reign continued into the 940s is beyond me. His book is a general survey of history with a bare minimum of endnotes (and I prefer footnotes anyway) and sadly this claim comes without any citation or argument. I don't know of any website which has the modern edition of DAI. If you search Google Books, you'll probably find that there's been a discussion about the Litziki and their supposed origins. Cavila (talk) 19:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 Done & found! Kebeta (talk) 14:23, 2 September 2010 (UTC)