Celia, I've started doing some formatting & sorting the references etc. Feel free to revert anything I've done. Do you think the Freeman mentioned is Edward Augustus Freeman? & Brereton could be R. P. Brereton but the dates don't match. I will continue working on this unless you tell me to stop.— Rod talk 18:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Super -- Thanks, Rod-- keep up the great work! The Brereton article is one that fellow somersetwikist Dave Bown scanned in and sent a few pages of to me. I think he has the originals, so he might be able to give us more details.
Rod, which list are you thinking of here: "Most of the churches in this list have been designated, under the Planning (Listed B..." Would that be the Jenkins list or the Somerset Towers altogether or a list we could include in the article? That might be something we could do to replace the current "generations" --- just list as many Somerset Towers as we can, with dates where we have them (as corrected by Harvey)and little symbols to indicate that they are grade 1 or grade-2 listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Celiakozlowski (talk • contribs) 11:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Scandal! Sparks Fly!
I went to the Somerset collection at Taunton today to copy pages from the Poyntz Wright book about the generations of towers where I missed out the characteristics. The gentleman librarian (with quite a posh accent -- definitely not classic Zomerzet) pointed me to the PW book and also mentioned a critique of it. This is a little pamphlet, no other copies around that can be borrowed, so I just photocopied it. I'll dig into that and make changes accordingly. It's maybe a decade later than PW and thus the latest effort at tower dating.
EA Freeman R.P. Brereton
The critical article, "The Church Towers of Somerset" by John H. Harvey, also refers to "the early studies of E.A. Freeman... long before his fame as a mediaeval historian had written a history of world architecture, a detailed typology of Gothic tracery, and, by 1851-2, an appreciation of the Perpendicular churches of Somerset." The article also cites F.J Allen and R. P. Brereton's work, mentioning, as did the Brereton lecture, that "Brereton did not live to revise his essay, but Allen completed his work with comparative studies covering the whole of the country, published as "The Great Church Towers of England" in 1932. Don't know if that's any help.
- Thanks I've added them as links - can't find an article on Allen yet. Also where did you get the dates for tower constrction as all these need refs & Images of England just gives centuries.— Rod talk 19:56, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Rod -- All the tower dates, alas, are from Poyntz Wright and Harvey just rips these up. I'll go through his article and try to make a list of *his* estimated dates for the towers he attempts to date. His main conclusion is that there needs to be a really heavy-duty multi-faceted study of all the towers by people with expertise in lots of different aspects of architectural history... and this should only start after every last shred of library evidence (legal documents, church bureaucracy paperwork, etc.) and heraldic / historic evidence has been gleaned.
Oh Dear -- Complete Overhaul needed
"It has been shown the Mr. Poyntz Wright's theory cannot be accepted as a reliable guide to the dating of the greater Somerset towers and that its groups, miscalled 'generations', lack internal coherence." from: Harvey, John H. (1984). Somerset Perpendicular -- The Church Towers and the Dating Evidence. London: The Ancient Monuments Society. pp. 158–173. This work just shreds the PW book...
- Thats OK we are just presenting all sides of the arguments (needs to be included though) - might need to go back to Allens groupings for the presentation? I'm just importing the data, pics (& refs for more info) etc that we already have so we can see what else is needed.— Rod talk 21:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Thinking about the Overhaul
Rod -- The individual pix and wrapping text look great. I'm gonna quit for tonight, too, but I'm thinking maybe we should just scrap the "generations" and pick out the best examples (and/or best pictures) (including showing the range from modest/simple to over-the-top), with Harvey's or Pevsner's dates and other interesting details.Celia Kozlowski (talk) 22:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Celia, I presume you have seen Peter Poyntz-Wright's web site? It has a contact/email form on it - why not ask him to respond to Harvey's criticisms & maybe even review/edit the article?— Rod talk 15:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
? work to do
I think this article is really coming on & I'd like to see it moved to the public mainspace before too long. A few thoughts on work still to do (roughly in order):
- Decide on article title (I would go for "Somerset Church Towers" - I think church is needed in the title
- Decide on the groups/generations - I would tend for the original specification but mention on each church if other authors argue with the date or classification.
- Write a short introductory para on the features of the group
- Move individual churches (with pics) into the right groups. Copyedit removing redundant bits (eg if all churches in a section have a specific type of buttresses include this in the section lead & remove from the specific church descriptions.
- Delete some of the pics & rearrange
- Move to mainspace
- add categories
- Identify fact for WP:DYK
- ask for copy edit/peer review
- Nominate for WP:GAN
Hi Celia. Rod suggested that I take a look at this article (I will be in Wells for 11 days soon and offered to take photos etc, see my talk page and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Somerset). You have done a marvelous job here! Rod suggested that I might be able to contribute photos of decorative details. My camera is limited to 'snapshots' but I might be able to manage some of the larger elements on his list. Any way, if you feel that would be useful for your article, please let me know, and be as specific as possible. Derek Andrews (talk) 11:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)