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Hi Charles01,
Regarding the black 5th generation Celica, did you take this pic in Utrecht, NL? From the front light and mirror, it's an American version of 1990-1991 Celica 1.6 ST Coupe. For this matter, I'm pretty sure it's 1990, not 1988. Toyota launched the 5th gen Celica in Japan in Sept 1989, arrived in America a month later, and in most countries in early 1990. I have the German press release dated Dec 1989.
Regards,
Arvin (celica21gtfour).
Yes, I took the picture in Utrecht, Nederland in the little 'drop-off' point / short stay car park above and on the southside of the rail tracks/platforms at the central rail station.
They've extended the Hoog Katherijne (which I almost certainly spell wrongly) shopping centre over the station since then, and I don't think the car park exists in that form any more.
Date? Yes, as far as I can make out from the Japanese entry, production of this version got under way in the Autumn of 1989, so most likely after the summer vacations provided the opportunity to switch dies of the presses and make all the other changes on the production line to accommodate the new shape. So I must have taken the picture in 1989 at the earliest. 1990 would be a reasonable inference. I do remember it was a cold bright winter day (big light: big reflections...) , so March 1990 seems reasonable.
I didn't know this notchback version of this Celica was ever sold in Germany. At that time European markets were viewed more individually than today, and both Belgium and Nederland got a wider range of Toyotas than Germany or UK. I guess the idea was that in countries without a significant 'domestic' auto-industry, the newly expanding Japanese should go for the mass market. But in Germany or UK competing against Volkswagen or Ford UK for the volume sales on their home patches in Germany / UK could be less profitable than concentrating on certain niches. Of course it's also cheaper and quicker to set up relatively dense dealer networks in smaller contries like Nederland & Belgium, which were particularly attractive in that respect because of relatively high earning power coupled with a largely urbanized population, so you need fewer larger dealers to cover the territory than you would in Wales or the corn belt states. Incidentally, I don't think this notchback Celica was ever a big seller anywhere in western Europe: its rarity was one of the reasons I would have been motivated to photograph it. I do, however, also have somewhere a picture of one with a Belgian license plate (which I guess is why I'm going on about NL and B in this para.
Hi Charles01,
Perhaps someone brought this black Celica 1.6 ST-i notchback from USA. I know someone brought a US spec GT-Four (All-Trac) to Belgium, then he moved to Finland. Another All-Trac was found for sale in Hungary. When I had vacation in Europe, I found US spec Lexus SC400 in France, Tercel in Italy, and Camry LE in Belgium. It's quite common to see US spec cars in Europe.
For the 5th gen Celica, UK only got 2.0 GT-i Liftback, GT-Four & GT-Four Carlos Sainz, while in the Continent there were 1.6 ST-i Liftback & 2.0 GT-i Cabriolet. The wide body Liftback 2.0 GTS-i was sold exclusively in NL & B.
BTW, where did you take pic of 4th gen Celica notchback?
Regards,
Arvin (celica21gtfour).
Not entirely sure which Toyota Celica counts as fourth generation, but if you mean this one I photographed it in Cambridge, England (at the north end of the Trumpington Road, along a little parallel road called, as far as I remember, Brookside) I don't think it's a UK spec model tho, and from what I can see of the wipers it might not even have the steering wheel on the "English" (and indeed Japanese) side of the car. It's true there are a lot of US spec cars that fetch up in Europe, especially where there are US military bases nearby. There are a lot of US military bases near to Cambridge left over from World War II because it was close to Germany which the Brits and their allies were at the time keen to bomb. The bases stayed, primarily because of the threatening stance of the Soviets, and of course the US military personnel almost all had cars which they were often able to purchase (at least by European standards) for fantastically low prices. For Japanese originating cars you also get a lot of 'grey imports' in the UK, because (1) the Japanese used car market generally fixes lower used car prices than the European used car market and (2) the Brits and the Japanese agree that in North America, and in most of Europe, folks all drive on the 'wrong' side of the road. Still, I guess it's the differences that make life interesting as long as we don't all see it as a reason to drop bombs on each other again. Regards Charles01 (talk) 09:35, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Celica was display for the first time at 1970 Tokyo Motor Show in October of that year. It was officially marketed from December 1970, so actually production started from October in order to supply demand by December.
Regards,
Arvin (Celica21gtfour). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.136.19.8 (talk) 00:55, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Arvin. Are you the same Arvin that helped me decode post 1977 model codes on my website many years ago? Anyway, you have a reasonable argument but Toyota's Vehicle Identification Manual says production (not sales) started in 7012 (Dec 1970). I suspect the 1970 Tokyo Motor Show car was a preproduction sample used to test the assembly line before production started in earnest. Of course, being a show car, it would have also have had a lot of hand finishing. But I'm always open to new information. Can you point me to your source? Cheers. Stepho (talk) 02:14, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Stepho,
Yes, I think so. I was active in the GT-Four list years ago and provided Celica model codes. Perhaps the export models started production from Dec 1970, and for JDM was from Oct 1970. I guess the prototypes / test cars were built even before Oct 1970. You are right, the Toyota manual book mentioned the mass production date.
For ST185 (and FF AT180/ST18#) the prototypes were built as early Dec 1988, the production model was launched in Japan in Sept 1989, and mass production FF models from Sept 1989, ST185 from Oct 1989. Production of 5th gen Celica was ended in Sept 1993 when they began to produce 6th gen cars, but Toyota manual book (export model) mentioned ST185 until Nov 1993.
Regards, Arvin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Celica21gtfour (talk • contribs) 01:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I checked the Japanese data and it also says the production started at 7012. I had my Asian wife translate the Japanese characters and they are definitely 'production date' - I specifically asked if they said 'production date' or 'sales date'. I've put a copy of the early Japanese data on my web site for a few days at [1] (JapSpecsCelica1.tiff, JapSpecsCelica2.tiff). This is similar to how the RA25 shown at the 1971 Tokyo Motor Show was actually a custom modified TA22 (says so on the build plate, production didn't start until April 1973). Stepho (talk) 09:43, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Did you change the year from 1994-1999 to 1993-1999? I know that the 6th gen Celica was introduced in Japan in Oct '93 and in the USA as '94 model year at around the same time. Rests of the world were mostly in 1994. Australian brochure printed Dec '93, but only less than 200 units sold in '93, the others were sold in 1994-1999.
Another Australian said 1990-1994 Celica is ST184, based on the last ST184 sold in 1994. It would confuse people if ST184 is 1994, and ST20# is 1993. So, I always mention 5th gen 1990-1993, and 6th gen 1994-1999.Celica21gtfour 16 August 2010 —Preceding undated comment added 07:48, 16 August 2010 (UTC).[reply]
Hi Arvin,
There are numerous numbering schemes in use: sometimes calendar year was used and sometimes model year. Sometimes productions dates were used and sometimes purchase dates. Sometimes dates for one country were used and sometimes global dates were used. Sometimes the most common dates were used and sometimes oddball vehicle lifetimes were used (eg Datsun 1200 ute was made for something like 30 years but the sedan was only made for a few years).
It's far simpler to use calendar dates for everything from the very first production run to the absolute last production run . As you said, this then makes the dates mid 1990 to mid 1993 and mid 1993 to mid 1999. But this is what the automotive project is doing for all automotive articles, so this is consistent with what all articles will eventually be. I've already converted a number of Toyota articles to this scheme. Sadly, other manufacturer's articles are all over the place - such is life. Cheers. Stepho (talk) 09:01, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are you still in Indonesia? If so, next time you're out and about with your camera, could we get a photo of a Daihatsu Taft/Rocky/Hiline? Especially the lwb 4-door version and the pickup truck would be desirable, as these were homegrown Indonesian developments. I have only ever been to Batam Island, but the cars there were very boring and rarely worth photographing (just used Singaporean cars and very dented Suzuki angkots), but maybe you could find one of these beasts to photograph? I don't expect one to be around the corner, but if you happen to see one. Thanks, regards, ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃ (talk) 06:22, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'm still in Indonesia. I try to photograph Daihatsu Taft/Rocky/Hiline if I found them in good condition. These vehicles were popular years ago, few friends of mine owned it.
19:07, 22 February 2011
Thank you! I also updated the Daihatsu Rugger page with your findings. I cropped the photo you took, hope you don't mind. All the best from NYC, ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃ (talk) 06:58, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I wonder if you are interested in another discussion regarding whether the Subaru Outback deserves a standalone article or if it ought to be merged into the relevant generational articles of Subaru Legacy (and Impreza)? Thank you.---North wiki (talk) 18:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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