User talk:ChildofMidnight/Archive 13

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Archive 12 Archive 13 Archive 14



Pure racism, of course. Drmies (talk) 00:43, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Beignets de farine de châtaigne

I can't find any proper reference for your article on fritelli (presumably plural). They are called called beignets de farine de châtaigne and here is a recipe. The word could equally well be Sardinian. Mathsci (talk) 07:07, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for having a look. I redirected that name to the article and added a mention to the beignets article. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:49, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Up your alley and needs refs

Pho Ta - stub I found on NPP. It makes a claim of notability, but gives no references. LadyofShalott 07:46, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, you should create an article on Pho 24, a big chain with stores in Vietnam and international franchises in Indonesia, Australia, Philippines, Korea, and Cambodia. Bongomatic 08:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Notability for both those subjects is marginal. I have VERY high standards and I'm not sure they're met. Are you folks signing on to the Doughnut Project? ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:48, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Another one for you

Have some doughnut holes while you're at it

ArtReview. I was in a deleting mood and searching for stuff to G11, and this title made me think it would have potential for a G11 tag, but I was mistaken. Maybe a DYK, think of something? Also, do you fancy a glass of wine? cheers -SpacemanSpiff 18:42, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

The ArtReview looks interesting. I see it's getting some attention. The Wine Fair looks interesting, but I tend to discriminate against events that are that new as their articles strike me as a bit promotional. Is it notable? ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:30, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
No clue, I haven't lived in India since this wine fair began, so I'm not aware. Besides, I prefer beer (not the kind you call beer out here). ArtReview, maybe a DYK with that Dame artist? cheers. -SpacemanSpiff 02:00, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

A book

According to this, you're quoted in the book titled The World and Wikipedia[1].--Caspian blue 16:09, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

All that's left is for you to start an article about me. Please make sure not to make it too laudatory. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


Hey Child, I need your help. Warrior Brotherhood is nominated for a speedy, and it needs expansion. This looks like something right up your alley... Thanks man, Drmies (talk) 00:52, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

PS Midwestern dinner: meat loaf, mashed potatoes, gravy, squash... Drmies (talk) 00:52, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Do any members ride bikes from your local manufacturer? I'm having zuccini. So we're like brothers who even eat similar vegetables!ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:28, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Silly CoM!

I translated Tortita negra for you. All you have to do is ask ;) Cheers! Scapler (talk) 04:10, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

How's your Italian? ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:15, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Not as good as my Spanish, I'm afraid. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 04:17, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Scalper beat me to the translation, but seriously CoM, this is the English language Wikipedia, if you hadn't noticed. -SpacemanSpiff 04:19, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
What are you saying? ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Writing articles in Spanish, perhaps the reason Lou Dobbs retired (or at least thankfully went off air). -SpacemanSpiff 04:40, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Yo pienso que SpacemanSpiff está diciendo: ¡edita en íngles! Cheers! Scapler (talk) 04:43, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
La vaca no es muy dulce. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:44, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Hay dos ardillas en mis pantalones. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 04:48, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
TMI. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:53, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
(ec)¿que vaca? Sí se puede editar en Inglés. -SpacemanSpiff 04:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


Since I know a bit of Icelandic, I created the article for you. I hope you don't mind. :) Theleftorium 20:12, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Not at all. Looks great. Thank you very much. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:09, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

chinese donuts?

Does that page qualify for your donut list? Or are you only including dessert-variety fried dough foods? Shymian (talk) 07:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I thought you were just compiling a list of all donut articles, not ones for creation or improvement. But if it's creation you're after, do the two redirects I created count?  ;-) As for the other ones you mentioned, sorry but I've never heard of them. I only knew of this one from some of the dimsum places I've been to. I'll ask around the next time I'm there, though, to see what the response is. Sorry again! Shymian (talk) 08:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Signpost: 16 November 2009

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Working Man's Barnstar.png The Working Wikipedian's Barnstar
This has got to be the best page I found on NPP so far, unfortunately. I dream of horses If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. @ 20:48, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Muchas gracias! New page patrol can be interesting, no doubt about it. Thanks for taknig the time to recognize a fellow editors work. Kudos. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:52, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


Man, that stub made me hungry. You know when I went to Puerto Rico two years ago, I took my whole family, including my two "BoriGringa" granddaughters. There they ate their first "Piraguas". When we returned to the states I decided to write an article about the Piragua, but I had no idea what to do. Anyway, I ended up with this: Piragua. Who knows, maybe with time "Quesito" will end up with a full article. Tony the Marine (talk) 23:55, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Atama RFA

Wait, we're agreeing on something? Weird. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

We probably agree on a lot of things Sarek. But I was surprised to see you again involved in a conflicted situation with Otter. It's like you still want to ignore the feedback you've gotten. I find it pretty distressing. Wikipedia is not just about who's "right" or "wrong" and choosing sides. It's about respecting your fellow editors and treating them all fairly whatever their perspective or opinions. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:42, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree totally. I've backed away from the Tubefilter and LG15 articles, because my perspective on their notability is too entwined with my interactions with Otter. However, that doesn't mean I can't recognize behavior that is not appropriate, like trying to edit-war unfavorable comments off a talk page. If there's a question in my mind about whether something's appropriate, I ask. If there isn't, I don't go looking for someone to do my dirty work for me; I do it myself and take whatever heat comes.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand the adamant interest in that article from either side of the dispute. I wonder if there's some COI and advertising interest at work? But I agree that there have been problems with the approach of those critical the article's content. There are lots of ways to get additional eyes on it and to get additional input and, if necessary, to get additional admins to have a look. When admins rigorously pursue a dispute with one editor it becomes disruptive and unhelpful, even if they're "right" on the underlying content issues. There needs to more of an effort to resolve and alleviate disputes instead of just policing and choosing winners and losers, but that's a problem far greater than any one admin. The tiered structure here is a big contributor to the friction and lack of collegiality we experience. I see there's an Arb election coming up. Should be interesting. That's another process that's pretty flawed although it's a bit better than it was I think. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:18, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


Thanks for letting me know about the absence of a financial definition for "spinning."

I will try to create a page for it no later than Friday.

BiographicalOmissionsCorrected (talk) 08:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


I have problems too. Just did two articles on Jaji, and for balance it seems there should be two on Jija. But the Jerusalem Italian Jews Association doesn't see all that notable. Jijas has a picture waiting for an article but spiced minced pork, whether in a sausage, meatloaf or just fried, can't possibly be notable. Google books says a man may call his wife's mother or his wife's mother's sister jija. For all their relative clarity and generality, jija and bhabhi are encapsulated in a fundamentally consanguineal construction. Jija declared that the pig was the winner and even the tiger agreed. A predicative demonstrative may anticipate jija in a statement. None of this is helpful. Hard to think positively about the problem.

Back to the subject, "mu" is nothing to do with dogs. Cows, maybe. Aymatth2 (talk) 01:35, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


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Hello, ChildofMidnight. You have new messages at Taqi Haider's talk page.
Message added 06:01, 20 November 2009 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Taqi Haider (talk) 06:01, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


Badushah is a south indian sweet, available readily in the sweet shops in Kerala, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu (not sure abt Andhra Pradesh); not just in Bimbis. It is made from a stiff dough of all purpose flour, ghee and a pinch of baking soda. One inch diameter, half inch think discs are shaped with hands, fried in ghee or oil and dunked in thick sugar syrup. Removed after a while, so that it has a sugar coating. Not very sweet, but tasty, slightly flaky in texture. I think the Bimbis in Pazhavangadi has closed down. Paalappoo (talk) 03:21, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I thought you wanted me to do this? Anywasy, Bimbi's badushahs aren't as good as those from Grand Sweets and Snacks, Madras. cheers -SpacemanSpiff 03:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I did want you to do it. How long was I supposed to wait? :) The ones in the photo linked at the bottom look GOOOOD. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
As long as it took for a DYK for ArtReview. Btw, I added the origins info for the sweet. You might also want to do an article for Badusha's brother - Jehangir (Jangiri etc). -SpacemanSpiff 04:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I am a reliable source.. :) I am from Thiruvananthapuram... Paalappoo (talk) 05:04, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
But technically, badusha is no different in the Bimbis in Kochi or Ernakulam compared to that in Thiruvananthapuram. Child, I still think the addition of Bimbis is undue per taste buds. -SpacemanSpiff 05:11, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately I am not in a position to conduct the original research (OR) necessary to determine the truth. Could you add some ingredient information? Maybe a link to a recipe? ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:26, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
There's a recipe on gbooks, but the book has no preview. Do you have access to a "large" library? I can find something for you to look up then... -SpacemanSpiff 17:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
You expect me to get up from computer keyboard and monitor? I thought you were going to develop the article. I can't wait to see your DYK!!! :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:14, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
No DYK, it's already passed the 5 day threshold. I'm too lazy on the DYK front, I think lists have a better return on edits ratio, no shortage of cricketing stats to compile to lists either. I'll see what I can do about Badushah, I kept postponing it mainly because of the lack of sourcing.-SpacemanSpiff 17:25, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Wondering if Badushah is related to Balushahi. Maybe Spaceman will know better.Paalappoo (talk) 11:12, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

November 2009

Information.svg Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, such as on User talk:Drmies, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button Button sig.png located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 06:19, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for this extraordinarily helpful reminder. You probably deserve a barnstar, or something. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:32, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Haven't had one of those in a long, long time. You know, I have yet to slap you with a vandalism warning, and the reports my socks keep filing for you at ANI keep getting turned down as having no merit...when did you become such a good boy? Drmies (talk) 06:47, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Doc, there is a very limited talent pool of writers who can work on the critically advanced subject matter I contribute. Obviously the overwhelming majority here appreciates this vitally important work. Many are probably hoping I'll run for Arbcom, but (as much as I hate to disappoint anyone) I'm just not sure I have time for that and The Bacon Mania 2010 Strip for the Future event. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
But think of how you could use that power. One could mandate that all editors must contribute to a bacon article or be blocked. Wiki-legislating from the bench. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 07:59, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Only a God-king has that kind of power Scaps. But rest assured that I am carefully plotting how to usurp that role as soon as possible so I can impose a unifying vision of sweet and savory delights across all of Wikipedia with a glorious rise to absolute power atop the shoulders of adoring throngs while wearing a candy gilded bacon doughnut wikicrown. ;) ChildofMidnight (talk) 08:05, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Bacon? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:07, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Are you not familiar with the glorious five-pointed bacon star? I'm pushing for a ring... but the armies of darkness are resisting progress... ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:25, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

<--Man, this is a difficult conversation for me to read--not just the fear of CoM as a god-king-president-arbcommer (ArbCoM?), but also this bacon talk: I haven't had bacon IN A WEEK! Drmies (talk) 18:15, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I had bacon just this morning. Does that count? Geoff Say something! 21:49, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Please don't bait Drmies. He's weak willed. We must all pull for him to resist bacon melts, BLTs, bacon avocado burgers (like the one I had last night), bacon salads, and sides of bacon with breakfast. We're all pulling for you Doc! I know you can do it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:53, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I just now read something about the "BLTini" — vodka shaken with tomato water, vermouth and a basil leaf (posing as lettuce), garnished with a crispy bacon bite. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:31, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Dutchie (pastry)

My extremely weak contribution to Doughnut Days, inherently POV due to an ongoing debate by sadsacks like me as to whether it is even a doughnut or not. I'm buying doughnuts for the team in an hour and will see if I can scam a picture of one on my cellphone. -- Samir 10:04, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I used to pick the raisins out of Dutchies, but I don't like raisins...the rest was good though. --kelapstick (talk) 16:13, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Very cool Samir! Thanks so much for making an important contribution to the effort! I am looking forward to the photo. Kelapstick, I'm pretty sure those were seeds you picked out of your duchy... before you passed it upon the left hand side. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Wait, I see there is a photo now. And it looks awesome. First square milk jugs and now this. Who would ever have imagined such a thing was even possible??? ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Oh, square milk jugs are can't pour them without spilling and they barely fit into the little slot in the fridge door that keeps liquids. But nonetheless, great pic and article. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 22:55, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
They can be hard to pour, however you could always sign up for the clinic they were holding at Wal-Mart. I find they fit better than a regular gallon jug, but it depends on the size of your fridge I suppose. We saved about 2 dollars per gallon, so it was well worth any issues that came about. Unfortunately the plant that filled them near us closed down this week, something about not being able to provide enough volume for Costco/Wal-Mart or something like that. Quite a few people out of work as it were. --kelapstick (talk) 02:02, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

How did you find all that information ChildOfMidnight! Nice additions. Wow. Some of these new doughnut days articles should go up for DYK. Unfortunately the dutchie was the last of the doughnuts picked out this morning, and the kid who took it picked them raisins out also Kelapstick -- Samir 23:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Chipa and Chipas

I was looking at your To Do list. There's already a Chipa article, were you referring to the same thing -- cassava/corn-based cheese pastries? NinetyNineFennelSeeds (talk) 15:29, 21 November 2009 (UTC) I also just looked at your Goya photos. I first thought the title was "The Encyclopedia Anyone Can EAT" which has given me a possible idea for my user page. NinetyNineFennelSeeds (talk) 15:32, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. It looks like a redirect was all that was needed. Thanks for pointing that out. I suspect many of the redlinks just need to be redirected to the right place. I think a few of them are just translations of the word doughnut. But others look like they may be distinct or notable or other types of fried dough, so any help sorting through it is most welcome. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:53, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Booze and co

Hi com, sorry I am a bit confused as to which comments you are referring to? Off2riorob (talk) 18:17, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Lavanga Latika

I had this today. Recipe is here. Was similar in taste to badushah, except that it was served warm, along with a little sugar syrup and that it had a coconut flavoured filling. Badushah is dry. No idea which part of the country lavanga lathika is from. Thought you will be interested. I can get pics for you. Paalappoo (talk) 18:19, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Lucky you. Did they look like this [2] or this [3]? I'm having a hard time finding a good photo, but I'm interested! When can you upload some photos? ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
This is a better image. It can also be pure white in color or other shades of yellow/orange. It's a Bengali sweet. -SpacemanSpiff 23:34, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
The pic Spaceman refers to is of Kheer Kodom, which is a harder rasgulla with a coating and is dry from outside. It is of course a Bengali sweet. I can upload pictures of both, kheer kodom and laganga latika; but I have to go back to the place where I had it. Till yesterday, I didnt know that lavanga latika existed. Paalappoo (talk) 02:43, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Isn't lavang latika just a deep fried Maida ball with coloring, and a filling of coconut, sugar and cloves, soaked in syrup? At least that's how I remember it... if you're going to a sweet shop, can you get pictures of all the sweets they have? Might be helpful for other articles and also the list of Indian sweets. cheers. -SpacemanSpiff 04:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
In my experience Spacemen don't know much about dessert apart from freeze dried ice cream. So it's not surprising that Spliff doesn't know his laddu from Nollen Sandesh. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:51, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Posted pics of Kheer kodom, [4], [5] and [6]. Also, two types of sandesh, Nollen Gurer Sandesh and Jolbhara Sandesh. I had got lavanga latika from a street-side food stall, not from a proper sweet shop. Shall post pics during the week.Paalappoo (talk) 07:45, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Hmmmm... the doughnut article says "Balushahi, also called badushah, is made from flour, deep fried in clarified butter, and dipped in sugar syrup. " So perhaps Pala is correct that these are the same thing? ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:38, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Could be, "shahi" means something like royal, same with "shah"; "balu" in the Urdu/Hindi of the north could've been corrupted to "badu" in the south. There probably are some subtle differences, like adding powdered cardamom to Badushah and so on. -SpacemanSpiff 19:50, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

NowCommons: File:Bowl of mandazi.jpg

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WikiProject Invite

You are invited to join Wikipedia: WikiProject United States presidential elections because of your outstanding contributions to articles related to this new WikiProject.--William S. Saturn (talk) 00:06, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Will. I'm going to try to leave off presidential politics for a little while longer. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:05, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Messina Hof

Do you recall it? It was speedied as advertising, I remember doing work on it, and it being reasonable notable...but I can't remember when it was...looks like it was deleted in June/July, and just recently...I asked for it to be userfied so I can take a look at the history.--kelapstick (talk) 23:08, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Did you take a look at the deletion discussion [7]? It doesn't seem very promising to me. Your time would be far better spent working on the Doughnut Drive. Obviously. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:11, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Yeah I saw that, but I am thinking that if there is a valid version prior to oakinteractive editing, it should just be reverted to that, rather than speedy deleted. Besides, reverting back is easier than creating an article. I have to head out in 45 minutes, we are getting a new fridge, ours died on Friday, hard to prepare for Thanksgiving without a place to keep one's food.--kelapstick (talk) 23:13, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Make sure it has the ice and water dispenser in the front. I always thought those kind are cool (even though they seem to break). ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:15, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
HAHA funny you should say that, our ice maker broke a few months ago. This time it was the compressor, we like the ice and water. But since we rent it isn't our choice, but it is the same brand and style so hopefully it has one.--kelapstick (talk) 23:19, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


I have done some additions to this article, would you look to see if it can be left on due to inability to source.Turqoise127 (talk) 23:22, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Looks good to me. But I think it's shady that you have Berliner posing as a Krafna for the photo. How are the other Croatian doughnut articles coming? ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:29, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

good morning

hi, I have only had a quick look but thanks for the comments. Off2riorob (talk) 09:27, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Signpost: 23 November 2009

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Another one for the DDs. Pretty tasty stuff this is, writing the article made me yearn for it, decided to make some, so tomorrow morning I should be munching away on the rice flour variety. Looks like these, the hole is optional. Happy salivating. -SpacemanSpiff 03:02, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I give you an amazing sweet that's good for the gods, and you still haven't touched it? -SpacemanSpiff 17:18, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Patience young Jedi. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:05, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Okay, now then. I checked out the image and the article yesterday. Looks good. Did you notice that there is a miniature of the photo in the photo? What's going on with that? ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:48, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
No idea. I'll take a picture of the Adhirasams I made yesterday and post, but they don't look like they do in that picture. IMO, presentation is required only when it's not delicious! BTW, you might find some pictures you like on the flickr account, they are all available by the CC---- license thingy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
I look forward to seeing your version! ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:14, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
I take it you don't know how to use the {{unsigned}} template? -SpacemanSpiff 01:51, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
You mean I can't just leave it there and hope someone fixes it? ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:21, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Here it is. -SpacemanSpiff 18:30, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:World Focus 004.jpg


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If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 14:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)


I found your comment to be insightful. I'll continue to endeavor to be less of a dick. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 21:15, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully everyone will have a good time around here despite the stresses of the holidays. ;) ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:24, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door

Up for expansion?--kelapstick (talk) 00:12, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Do I want that kind of mob outside? ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:24, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
For someone already on the wrong side of the ELF crowd, I'm surprised to see you baiting the PETA folks... ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

ANI/noticeboard redux

Hey there, just saw the noticeboard with Off2riorob. . .what's up with that? He hasn't really done anything that I can see, and the two guys from the Karl Rove page, Chhe and Jusdafax, they're always complaining, can't reach consensus. . .they're just trying to run Rob off. Is he blocked? I tried to add a comment on that noticeboard but didn't see an edit window.Malke 2010 (talk) 01:53, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe it was marked resolved. I hope that the friendly suggestions made will be taken under advisement. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Rob gets frustrated like everybody else who is trying to work within the system and feels that the system works

against them when they need it to stand by them the most. i.e., you play by the rules and then the bad guys use the rules to get you in trouble. . .Or at least it feels that way to a relative newcomer. Just look at some of the comments made by the Karl Rove crowd. How come guys like that don't get blocked, etc? Weird system on Wikipedia. Anyway, I'm happy for Rob. Seems like a nice and sincere guy. :) Malke 2010 (talk) 03:31, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

It's definitely an imperfect system. On the other hand, we're getting to write an encyclopedia which is pretty neat. And there are a lot of great and helpful editors here. Hopefully the climate of cabalism, censorship and intolerance will be reformed towards one where civility and cooperation are more pronounced. Happy Holidays! ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


Why does Bobby have blue feet?Malke 2010 (talk) 02:19, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't know, but it's a good question. I presume you mean Booby? I don't know a Bobby on Wikipedia. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
LOL, sorry, spelling, I mean Booby. . .blue feet, never saw that. I saw your list of articles you've written. Cool. Are you in L.A.? I've always liked the Ivy.Malke 2010 (talk) 02:34, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
I am in L.A. I have never eaten actually eaten at the Ivy. As a native New Yorker, I'm partial to Joan's on Third. The Kiss My Bundt Bakery is also pretty amazing. Lots of good food around actually. Are you in this area? ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:35, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Santa Monica. . .where from in New York? I also like Canter's on Fairfax (we usually have Christmas night dinner there. We're probably the only Catholics in the place). Haven't tried Joan's on Third.Malke 2010 (talk) 03:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
It's a busy New York style gourmet food store and restaurant. Canter's has very good baked goods. I haven't eaten a meal there yet. I was just at Out of the Closet across the street and they have cool stuff (West Hollywood thrift store). I started an article on Drago restaurants and Versailles Cuban restaurant. New York City. How are things up in Santa Monica. I went to a raw foods place out that way once... ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:33, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
The Farmers Market (Los Angeles) has some interesting food offerings too. And there's some good Vietnamese (especially Pho and banh), Peruvian and Brazilian churrascaria. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:38, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Santa Monica. . .where from in New York? I also like Canter's on Fairfax (we usually have Christmas night dinner there. We're probably the only Catholics in the place). Haven't tried Joan's on Third.Malke 2010 (talk) 03:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
It's a busy New York style gourmet food store and restaurant. Canter's has very good baked goods. I haven't eaten a meal there yet. I was just at Out of the Closet across the street and they have cool stuff (West Hollywood thrift store). I started an article on Drago restaurants and Versailles Cuban restaurant. New York City. How are things up in Santa Monica. I went to a raw foods place out that way once... ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:33, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, the raw foods thing. . .can't think of the name. There's also this veggie place up here, some weird combos, but I like it. I'll find the name and let you know if you like that sort of thing. Also love Koo Koo Roo because you can eat and stay thin with the no fat/skinless chicken breasts, well seasoned and yummy. I know Out of the Closet. Cool stuff, yeah. L.A. has too much traffic, but otherwise, like the area, love the weather. Like to visit New York though, especially in fall. Any good food places in the East Village? Going there in December for a week on business.Malke 2010 (talk) 03:42, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Juliano's. Supposedly he's a big wig in the raw foods movement, but last I checked he didn't have an article. Some of the raw foods are pretty neat and have quite unique tastes and textures. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy Thanksgiving!

I just wanted to wish those Wikipedians who have been nice enough to give me a barnstar or smile at me, supportive enough to agree with me, etc., a Happy Thanksgiving! Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 15:33, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

How's this for a T-Day dessert?] Bongomatic 16:20, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Korean regional cuisine

Hey, Midnight cowboy, I know you're busy building up the Western centric Donut paradise:-), but if possible, your help to proof-read the new article would be highly appreciated. Thanks.--Caspian blue 16:51, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Caspian blue, fried dough is something that unifies us all, and the doughnut ring (with or without bacon) is the ultimate manifestation of our connectedness. I will take a look at the KRC article soon. Happy Hollandaise... oops, I mean Holidays. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for the wonderful copy-editing and greeting for Thanksgiving squid! Hmm..well, I heard that "a squid festival" exists in South Korea, or even in Japan, so well....we can recruit Squid cabal in homage to the Doughnut day and Bacon cabal. :-) Doughnuts are supposed to be on the table for the American holiday? :-) Anyway, have a fun.--Caspian blue 19:53, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you ...

... for the kind Thanksgiving wishes, and I wish you a most enjoyable Thanksgiving as well CoM. Enjoy the food, and have a great day. — Ched :  ?  17:22, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Flowers for CoM

Its like a barnstar but different, thanks CoM, from Off2riorob (talk) 23:21, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Bright Pink Rhododendron.JPG

Thanks very much. A perennial barnstar. And I do like Rhodedendron! Azaleas are nice too. I take it they are fall blooming? It's been a while, but that seems right as best I can remember. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:11, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I am glad you like it, they are in the UK at least, spring flowering, I took this photo on May 16th this year. Off2riorob (talk) 12:20, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Hey, thanks CoM, the closest I ever got to the USA was being a friends fan, I think I have watched about every episode. At the moment I am busy there at the BLP noticeboard, and enjoying it, very best regards to you. Off2riorob (talk) 20:24, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Joy J. Kaimaparamban

There's something funny about this article. I tried doing some research through the usual channels, but I got confused and lost. The article may not be what it appears to be. I can't help any more than that, but whether you vote to keep, or delete, you might want to do some research first. I edit ancient Indian subcontinent history sometimes on wikipedia, and I know how poorly represented on wikipedia are many articles from this part of the world. --IP69.226.103.13 (talk) 04:36, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

A salute to a gracious comment

The kind and beautiful grace you displayed on Off2riorob‎'s talk at a time when so much weight was arrayed against them ... just before Thanksgiving ... brings a smile, and a tear to my eye. Bless you. (No response required.) Proofreader77 (talk) 08:22, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Ah (and yes I see now) for a strong defense, when it counts. Proofreader77 (talk) 08:32, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
  • PS ... I am pondering a design for a new barnstar inspired by you (whether I am allowed to make one or not) ... At the moment thinking of that statue at the end of Arizona ... crossed with Buffy ^^ -- Proofreader77 (talk) 21:07, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that anyone is allowed to design barnstars as long as they are respectful. What is the statue at the end of Arizona? Is Buffy a better embodiment of justice or Xena? And what about Sandra Day O'Connor? Sarah Palin? Hillary C.? Margaret Thatcher. Margaret Cho. So many to choose from! Hmmm... :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Hint re Arizona: In what town does Arizona dead-end at Ocean ([Ave])? :) Hint hint: Statue has same name. :) Meanwhile, until I can conceive a new one ... this one fits:
Mensch5.png The Barnstar of Integrity
For balancing the scales amidst the flames. Proofreader77 (talk) 21:38, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

LOL ... Or is that Wilshire. (Gears are slipping:) Proofreader77 (talk) 21:41, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, oops, end of Wilshire. :) Proofreader77 (talk) 21:47, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Why Buffy? ... Something about adversaries and dust.^^ Cheers. Proofreader77 (talk) 21:58, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
(sotto voce) Having again witnessed your otherworldly powers, I am even more certain that a special barnstar must be designed ... but suspect that the perfect one might be incomprehensible to earthlings. Perhaps will seek intergalactic consultants. :) Proofreader77 (talk) 06:30, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
The article I created (or recreated, I can't remember which) on exopolitics might have helped in this discussion, but it was merged by the skeptics. Some people simply can't accept scientific truth no matter how much evidence there is. ;) And they don't seem to take very seriously the need to prepare for possible negotiations with balls of light and are reticent about the insights and perspectives offered by outsiders. Take care. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:36, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Precisely. (And thank you.) Proofreader77 (talk) 06:50, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I wanted to revert that. ^^ Proofreader77 (talk) 20:24, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Win some lose some. Those cites did not stand up to scrutiny when I took a closer look. I certainly understand the special joy involved in disputing one another's work as I was very happy to revert Drmies earlier today, no doubt heightening his frustration. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:32, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Two things: (1) If I should ever "say" the word "paralogic," consider this book title (no need to read book, just consider title:)... (2) Rest assured all valences of extraterrestrial robot implications will be carefully computed. ;) Proofreader77 (talk) 21:27, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Editing other user's comments

Thank you for thinking of WP:NPA, but it is best not to edit others' comments on WP:ANI, as you did here unless there is outing or some sort of clear emergency need. No need to worry though; this looks like an error motivated by good intentions. Jehochman Talk 01:54, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, the problem in that dispute is that the usual drama mongerers are stirring up trouble instead of trying to help resolve and alleviate the dispute. I appreciate your reminder, but I think my trimming of the comment was reasonable, and I pointed it out to the editor who made the comment so it's up to them if they want to revert. We're a collaborative enterprise, and I think helpful efforts to look out for one another should be encouraged. Cheers. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Changing the comment above Cirt's reply makes Cirt's comment look needlessly petulant, when in fact Cirt is stating a legitimate grievance. It also denies the person making the attack a chance to retract it, which might help end the conflict. In any case, the thread needs to end, and the content dispute, if any, needs to go to an appropriate forum. Jehochman Talk 02:26, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Good points. Perhaps I should have left a <trimmed> bit in there. Oh well. I think Cirt could do more to let the situation simmer down by staying focused on the content. Reopening the thread hasn't helped. How's the Arb race going? ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:42, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for asking. The campaign seems rather quiet. Maybe everybody just decided I have no chance, so they aren't bothering to ask me any questions. :) As for that thread, hopefully it will fizzle soon enough. I'd like both sides to de-escalate the conflict. Jehochman Talk 03:58, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
I was intrigued by your candidacy. I've been very impressed with your efforts to assist editors and your willingness to help resolve and alleviate difficult disputes, as I think I've noted previously. I respect editors who are willing to take unpopular, or at least politically unadvantageous positions. There's too much politicking and cabalism here. On the other hand, it seems to me that you do play favorites and take sides. Perhaps I'm mistaken in that impression? I wonder, for example if the editors needing assistance hadn't been ones you agreed with on content issues if you would have assisted them in their efforts to remain an editor in good standing. I think you're very very beneficial here, but I don't know if I'm comfortable having you as an Arb. Independence and being a bit rogue is okay, but fairness is important. We'll see what happens. Voting opens Tuesday? And it's secret ballots this time (a position backed by the current Arbs, Giano, and Malleus if you can believe it!). Yikes. So much for community ideals and transparency. Anyway, that's my unasked for input. Have a good one. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Uploading Photos to Commons

Hi Midnight. Nice job uploading all those photos, they're really good. Just a suggestion, you can also upload your images to the Wikimedia Commons. This will allow the images to be used in all the other Wikimedia projects. Since you are uploading the pictures onto Wikipedia under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0, it is also fine to upload them there under the same liscense. If you want, you can re-upload your images to the Commons by following the instructions here. Thanks, ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 01:12, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I guess it would be better to upload them there, wouldn't it. I'm waiting/ hoping you, Glane23, or that other fellow who let's me know when I've messed up my photo uploads will make it sp that photos are automatically shared, so the whole world can benefit from my images of Jujubes and turkey bacon subs! I tend to be very conventional and am afraid of change. There are enough hassles on here with those who speak and write in a close approximation of the same English language that I like to use. And they seem to have a whole different set of rules over there. It's also a bit easier for me to keep an eye on my Arby Melt and Boston cream doughnut if they are kept here, close by where I can see them. But I certainly understand that the rest of the world should not be denied access to these important photographic illustrations. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:18, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I understand, it can feel like a whole 'nother world over there. If you want, you (or me, I'd be happy to) could add the {{Copy to Wikimedia Commons}} tag to your images, which would then be uploaded to the Commons by an administrator, hassle-free. Since you'd probably want attribution and a way of being contacted, you can head over to the Commons, which should automatically create an account for you, then create your userpage saying that all messages should be left here at Wikipedia. After all the months I've been there, I've never been contacted or even have to have even spoken to anyone. It's actually quite quiet. Thanks, ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 01:31, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I suppose I should try to do it myself. The last time I saw a photo copied over to commons the transferer left out the description entirely and then deleted the original. Very distressing. Why don't they just set it up so photo go directly to commons? Is there a point to a separate system on En.wikipedia? ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:33, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Hmm, that's odd, I don't think that should happen. My guess would be that the image had a name change, so that's why the original file was deleted. When an image is uploaded to the Commons, an equivalent is created on Wikipedia which takes all the info directly from the original file page at the Commons. There really isn't a separate system, all the image policies are similar except that fair-use images cannot be uploaded to the Commons. I'll see if I can look some more stuff up on transferring images. But anyways, its fine if you don't want to, I'm not trying to force you to or anything. :) ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 01:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
The images are usually deleted from En.wikipedia once they're made available at commons in order to save space. I presume the failure to copy over the description was just a mistake.
I have my work cut-out for me documenting the various doughnut varieties. They had some good looking crullers and glazed doughnuts, as well as some fancier kinds. And the distinction between risen and cake doughnuts is vital, and I'm not sure it's well explicated at present. I have my work cut-out for me! It's a good thing that typing is excellent exercise! ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:52, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Hmm...So I guess they delete the original file, then copy it over, thus allowing it to re-appear on Wikipedia as being transfered from the Commons. If you're busy, I can just slap on the tag onto your images and they'll be uploaded there without you having to worry about it (I've got time). And I've tried that excuse with my parents that typing is an exersize...but they don't buy it. Face-bad.svg ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 02:02, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Really I think the only one worth uploading to commons is the boston cream doughnut, but not the split open one. That one has a distinct lack of cream filling, and should in no way be used as a model for a proper boston cream doughnuts. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:08, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I also like the Subway sandwiches, I think those are good. I'll slap on the tag onto your Boston Cream doughnut one, and the sandwiches if you agree. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs
Arby's sub. Tsk tsk tsk. Get it straight! What are you up to for Thanksgiving? Turkey bacon club??? Tag and upload/ download as you see fit. I will feel bad for making someone else do the work, but I'll try to comfort myself with a tasty dinner... ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:18, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Oh, silly willy me. We all know that Subway is still the best, though ;) I'm heading on over to the Washington D.C. area with my family to see some friends. You? And a Turkey Bacon Club sounds nice...but how much can you write about Turkey Bacon? And don't worry about it, it's fine. I wouldn't be here editing if I didn't enjoy it. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 02:24, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I was actually able to figure out how to directly upload the file to the Commons using a bot. So here's the first one. Quite a handy tool, if I do say so myself. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 02:44, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Now I just need you to figure out how to change the upload options so a "would you like to have this photo uploaded to Creative Commons instead" option is created, or at least a Creative commons 2.0 (the Flickr licensing used). I have a holiday tradition of trying to hang out in the sunshine along the beach during winter holidays. And I might hit K-mart for some shopping. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:54, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, when you upload an image, it recommends on the upload page to upload non-free-use images to the Commons. Also, I think you're getting the two mixed up; the Wikimedia Commons is a website run by Wikimedia to upload images for use in all projects, while the Creative Commons are a company which creates licenses. And ew, I hate the cold. It's so dull and such a hassle...can't wait to move somewhere warmer. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 00:47, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I moved the Boston cream dounut disect to here . and the jujubes on yellow plate to here and cocobread on yellow plate to here the others don't seem to like moving to commons, no source file whatever that means.. Off2riorob (talk) 00:54, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I got the Arby's sandwich copied to Commons OK, but I messed up the name and have to wait for an admin there to fix it. Meanwhile, I found an already existing sandwich (with fries) there. Geoff U talkin' ta me? 21:09, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


I just wanted to let you know that awhile back someone moved User:ChildofMidnight/Schwa (restaurant) to mainspace. The mainspace article was tagged for speedy deletion today and met the criteria. I agree that the subject is notable, so instead of deleting it or moving it back to your user space, I INCUBATEd it. The page is now located at Wikipedia:Article Incubator/Schwa (restaurant). You are, of course, welcome to help bring it up to standard while it is in incubation. Thanks, ThaddeusB (talk) 05:27, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks Thaddeus. Very kind of you. I had seen that it was moved into mainspace and I think it's fairly notable (perhaps as a merge to the cook/ owner?). But it seems a bit pretentious, not to mention out of my price range, so I haven't gotten around to doing anything with it. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:29, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi ThaddeusB. I reviewed the article history and don't see the CSD tagging—any idea why? Rgds
Oh mysterious one, I believe it fell under the recreation of deleted content criteria. So I think it was moved into incubation, rather than being speedy deleted straight up. I posted a comment on the talk page on how I think it should be handled. If you want to work it up I'm willing to help as long as you follow my intructions very carefully. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:14, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
I know why it was deleted, I just don't know why I don't see the revision with the insertion of the G4 template. Try me! I'm great at following instructions (so long as they comport with my views and desires). Bongomatic 05:49, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
I had to delete the page to restore the history (the page had been userified w/o its history, so attribution was broken). When I went to undelete it, I left off some off the pointless revisions, including the CSD tagging. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:55, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

A barnstar for your recent WP:ANI comments.

Peace Barnstar 6.png The Barnstar of Diplomacy
This is awarded to ChildofMidnight for very helpful comments at WP:ANI to keep peace between disputants (as well as avoiding "malintent"). Well done! -- Atama 20:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


You deserve the above. I thank you for your patient attention to what matters. Just got your note. Agree that Alford pages now much improved. Still reservations about some other associated pages, but frankly I do not like the timewasting and politicking and decided to improve an article instead. I myself once had malintent and have never cooked over a campfire since. I will give it a look though, and hope to be in touch soon. Redheylin (talk) 21:05, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

PS - got any tips on how to go into detail about ways in which the cited page does not contain the information referenced? Redheylin (talk) 21:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Is this a rhetorical question? Philosophical question? :) I saw your comments regarding this issue. How best to reflect what is (and isn't) in the sources is a key to quality article writing work. If something is in some sources, but not in others, that's certainly an area where disputes can take place. Finding sources that support an argument, as opposed to pointing out sources that don't support the opposing argument, is probably a more productive route. But I'm hoping some "new blood" will take up the issues and offer a way forward. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:42, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Signpost: 30 November 2009

Read this Signpost in full · Single-page · Unsubscribe · EdwardsBot (talk) 13:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

More on donuts

I found out a little more about some of the Chinese variations listed on that donut page but I should warn you, without seeing the actual characters involved for all of the Chinese names, it's hard to be sure what was actually intended due to all of the differing pronunciations.

The only "known" thing is that two of the items listed (Jin Doi and Chien Doi) are basically "alternate pronunciations" of jin deui, commonly known in English as "sesame seed balls". I created re-directs for the English names, but I'm not sure the "doi" names deserve them cuz I don't even know if those names are the correct ones (in terms of how Chinese names are written out in English).

Also, "Zhá Miàn Quān" appear to have something to do with fried noodles. Not the "fried rice" kind of fried, but the deep-fried crispy kind. According to my source, "Zhá" is fried and "Miàn" is noodles, but "Quān" didn't seem to fit here cuz the only meaning that made sense was "wide", and no dish that would meet that description came to mind, let alone anything even remotely donut-like. And I don't think the little fried noodles that come on some "mandarin orange salads" count ;-)

Applying similar principles, "Zha Gao" would seem to refer to "fried dumplings", but those are salty more than sweet since the fillings usually have minced pork and mushrooms (see the "Deep-fried Crescent Dumplings" entry on this page). Would those still count as donuts? BTW in case you didn't know and/or were wondering, "gao" and "gok" are the same Chinese character, just pronounced differently in different dialects.

And finally, "saa1 jung1" appears to be more of a description rather than an actual item. "jung1" could mean "middle", and the best guess was that "saa1" refers to the red bean paste ("dou sha") that's often used as a filling. So this phrase could be more akin to "creme-filled" which describes the donut, rather than "boston creme" which would be the name for that type of donut.

If these "best guesses" are accurate, then I'm not sure these deserve their own articles. What do you think?

Cheers, Shymian (talk) 13:19, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks so much for investigating Shymian. There does seem to be some overlap between fried dough foods and doughnuts. I think many of the redlinked terms on the list need to be redirected or even trimmed. As per your findings, a lot of them seem to be indistinguishable clutter, if that's the right phrase for stuff that isn't properly sorted out or explained in a way that's helpful. I'm planning to sort it out a bit more in futur and your findings will be helpful. Redirects and merges seem like a good idea where applicable. I will try to do some follow-up on "Chinese doughnuts" and see what I come up with. Thanks again. Have a good one. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:04, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
In my view, this wikipedia is incomplete without an account of donut eating in Nepal. The streets of Kathmandu are full of donut vendors, this being the most important Nepali fast food genre. Redheylin (talk) 09:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, ChildofMidnight. You have new messages at SpacemanSpiff's talk page.
Message added 11:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

posted pics... Paalappoo (talk) 11:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Why are you pushing this so hard?

You advised Redheylin: I think getting a breather would be a good thing. And yet now it appears that you are pushing hard for his POV. That is a bit odd, to say the least. If you cannot bring sources to shore up this POV, and are instead making WP:SYNTH-type assertions, this is a waste of time, just like the ANI thread was. Cirt (talk) 21:10, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the article Alford plea? Have you seen the work that I have put into it? Have you noticed that prior to this work, the article was completely unsourced? Cirt (talk) 21:12, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I have, Cirt, and well done. Redheylin (talk) 21:14, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Redheylin, then why do you engage in disruption over the tags? Cirt (talk) 21:16, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Cirt, I suggested repeatedly that you guys work through dispute resolution and that Redheylin try the content noticeboard. The feuding seemed to continue with the ANI thread repeatedly getting reopened and with the same parties continuing to argue their positions (including accustations and counter accusations). Redheylin has stated that a post to the Law project discussion page didn't get a response, and neither of you (as far as I know) took up the suggestion to take the core issues up at another venue for dispute resolution. So I tried the content noticeboard, a place that seems very conducive to collegial discussion and outside input.

I was trying to lead by example in posting a request for outside input to see if we could work through the dispute resolution process together. It's one thing to just tell people to use dispute resolution, but I think it's important that admins and editors be willing to take part and in some cases to show how it's done. There often seems to be a reluctance from admins and others to get involved in the mediation process, becuase once they look into the matter they form opinions and become participants, but I think it's worthwhile getting into the trenches and attempting to work through the content issues.

I certainly hadn't intended to restoke the fires, although I see Redheylin's most recent note here suggests he's attempting to move forward on other projects. Last I looked the discussions were continuing on his talk page and I didn't see any indication that the content issues were resolved, so I felt moved to take some initiative to get a better consensus. I don't see what harm can come from soliciting outside input. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:20, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Your action of posting a dup post to the same board that I had posted to only a short while ago, while in your comment you argue for the POV of Redheylin, is certainly not an NPOV action, and moreso, it floods the noticeboard with duplicate posts and lessens the possibility of a positive outcome. I wish you had not added the dup post to the same noticeboard. You appear to be interjecting yourself across multiple pages, ANI, now the noticeboard even though there was already a post there, etc. Cirt (talk) 21:26, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
I noticed your post when I went to the wp:content noticeboard to make a post on the underlying issues. I understood your request to be narrowly focused on the taggings. So I thought it was reasonable to post regarding the underlying content issue.
I tried to be neutral in the way I worded my request and to present both sides as best I could, noting that there are sources establishing what's been included, and that there may be sources and a reasonable argument to support the need for further distinctions.
I actually don't have a strong opinion on the issue, and only looked into it to see if I could be of help. The disptue seemed to be ongoing and it seemed worthwhile to try the proper outside venues to get a better consensus. The fact that you posted to the content noticeboard about the taggings that are being argued over seems to indicate that the dispute hasn't yet been resolved, so I'm still hopeful that with additional input we can get a stronger consensus through collegial discussion.
My sense, based on looking into it the issues only sufficiently to understand the dispute, is that Alford pleas are usually (perhaps even always or almost always) used where there is strong evidence and the likelihood of a conviction, but that there may be other considerations and even cases where a guilty plea is entered for other reasons. If evidence is weak there is certainly less of an incentive to plead guilty, but it seems that the evidence may not be the only consideration or even the primary consideration in all cases.
Are guilty pleas made for reasons other than the likelihood of convictions? Are those still Alford pleas? I'm not sure. I only looked into the issue enough to understand the arguments. It's not entirely clear to me whether entering a guilty plea to avoid a trial or to avoid the chance of a death penalty conviction is worth noting, and I'm not sure whether a guilty plea for reasons other than the evidence, or in addition to evidenciary considerations, is a significant distinction. Has an Alford plea ever been made where there isn't strong evidence? If a guilty plea is made for other reasons, or not only because the evidence is strong, is that worth noting? IS it still an Alford plea? These seem to me to be basic straightforward questions that need to be answered in order to make sure the article is accurate and NPOV, and issues where additional input might help resolve the dispute. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:44, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Clearly from your questions you have not read my work at the article Alford plea. Cirt (talk) 21:54, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
I have read through the talk pages and noted that there are sources supporting what's there. I also did my own Google News search, it affirmed that many many sources note the sufficient evidence clause. I also noted Red's arguments and sources he points out don't mention the evidence considerations. And indeed I found articles suggesting other considerations may be involved.
I'm not trying to decide the matter and was only trying to understand it so I could present a fair description of both sides and the arguments. Perhaps I haven't been as neutral as you'd like or as I aspire to be, in order to understand the issues I looked into them a bit and certainly I have ideas of my own on how I think the matter should be resolved, that may well have influenced my phrasing even as I tried to be fair in presenting the issues for outside consideration. As I noted on your talk page, I was hoping to get additional outside input rather than just a rehash from the parties already involved. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Grand, so you have not yet said that you have even read the article itself, and therefore are not aware of the work I put into it or the sources presently in the article itself that answer all of your above questions. Cirt (talk) 22:02, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
If you are so confident in your position, why are you so resistant to additional input? Red is just as adamant about his arguments. Isn't that the reason there is a dispute?
I have read the article. If your suggestion is that there are no sources to support Red's position that additional clarification or revision might be helpful, I don't agree. I think both arguments are reasonable, and I find you to be a bit intolerant of perspectives and opinions other than your own. I also find you to be overly forceful in trying to have your way and in affirming that you are "right".
In disputes like this one there are very likely to be parts of both arguments that are valid, and it may be that what is needed is a reasonable compromise. I intend to abide by the consensus as determined by good faith editors considering the issue, and if your position is upheld in total, that's an outcome that I'm happy to respect; just as I'm willing to respect an outcome that supported Red's positions and arguments, or something inbetween.
I think the article and the debate itself are interesting, but I don't really care that much about the outcome one way or the other (even as I have some opinions on how best it can be handled). Since the two of you can't seem to come to an agreement, I think it's reasonable to get additional input, rather than having the disputants keep going at it. I tried to be neutral, but it may well be that I did a poor job of presenting the issue fairly and accurately and let my own views and perspectives show through in my phrasing. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:23, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
I am sorry but if you have read the article then I do not see how you have not read the part where it says the Supreme Court of the United States specified that in the Alford plea the defendant must be made aware that the plea can only be made when there is also sufficient evidence to convict. It says that in the article, properly sourced. Cirt (talk) 22:48, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
(ec) Hi CoM, allow me to have my input here. Yesterday you proceeded to mark that ANI thread resolved even though you are not an admin and even though there were other people who thought the thread closing was strange. There's a reason its called the administrators noticeboard. I believe it would be best if you let administrators use the Resolve template at the Administrators Noticeboard. This way you'll avoid problems like you did yesterday. Secondly once again, you should not have deleted one editor's personal attack ("attempt to deceive ANI noted"). The obvious problem is this: A replies to B and B insults A. A replies to the insult. Now if you delete the insult and someone reads the discussion later, the conversation suddenly wont make sense anymore and it may may result in the reader being misled and A looking bad. Do you see what I'm saying? You could have struck it out while signing your name so two important things are clear: (1) the comment was struck and (2) who struck it. I hope you can see what I'm trying to say. Other editors also found the comment deletion strange. It is best to attempt to resolve something, provide input or intervene, only when one is asked to help or intervene. But anyway these two issues are in the past so we can move past them.
The main reason I came here is to tell you that if you have issues with an article (Alford plea), then you should voice your specific concerns at the article page. It doesnt help to make generalized claims such as a certain editor is not willing to tolerate different views and so on. That can apply to anyone for that matter. It would be best for you to focus on that article (not the editor) and point out the specific problems with that article. I look forward to seeing your input on the article(s) talk pages. As you said above "indeed I found articles suggesting other considerations may be involved.", I would like to see your sources and what you read so that can be incorporated into the article.--Matt57 (talkcontribs) 23:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi Matt. While only Admins have the tools to block, anyone can weigh in at ANI. As an uninvolved party I don't see anything wrong with my thread closing. And in fact it was affirmed by another editor and an admin and then another admin. Had it been left closed a great deal of arguing and accusations could have been avoided and the focus could have been returned to the article content and sourcing issues.
I believe my refactoring was also proper, the policy page is wp:refactor, although it would have been better to leave a <trimmed> indication so that it was clear something had been removed.
I've tried to stay out of the content dispute and to direct the involved parties through the dispute resolution process as well as directing them to stay focused on the content while refraining from making accusations against one another. In order to further that dispute resolution process along, I did post a request for input at wp:content noticeboard earlier.
Cirt seems upset about that request and is continuing to argue his side, instead of letting others offer their input. I don't find that constructive, but he's certainly allowed to make his case. It can get disruptive when editors refuse to hear other opinions and insist on arguing their own point of view with great intensity.
I may choose to weigh in at some point, but for now at least I'm only interested in seeing how following through on the dispute resolution process works without my getting directly involved in the dispute itself. Cheers. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Ah, but you have interjected and gotten yourself involved in the "dispute itself". You continue to assert and advocate for the POV of Redheylin, over and above what the preponderance of sources actually say. Cirt (talk) 00:35, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that's the case Cirt, but you're entitled to your opinion. I've tried to be fair and have tried to leave my opinion on the matter out of it. That's one of the reasons I didn't think it was important for me to read up on all the discussions, articles, and issues involved. I did so only enough to post what I consider a reasonable and neutrally worded content noticeboard request (although I would have preferred if one of you had done so on your own). I have subsequently done more reading up as per your requests, so I think I am now actually pretty up to speed on the issues and content in dispute. I do have opinions on the content, but I haven't shared them and have no plans to do so, especially since no one has asked me for my opinion (which is always shocking since I have all the answers). You seem intent on trying to scare off anyone who doesn't take your side or who you think may not agree with you, and I think that's unfortunate. I encourage you to keep an open mind and to seek outside input when you find yourself in a dispute.
Even though I rarely need any help, I still like to get various opinions so I can fully consider all the points of view and find out if other people see things my way or might have a perspective that I hadn't considered. Of course it's sometimes frustrating that people remain misguided and fail to see things my way even after I've shown them where they've gone wrong, but it's an imperfect world. Patience and tolerance are virtues. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
CoM, according to WP:REFACTOR, "refactoring of talk pages must preserve the full intentions of the original authors.". If I call someone bad swear words on a talk page and what not and you came and deleted it, would that be preserving my full intentions? Further it says "If another editor objects to refactoring then the changes should be reverted.", so you should have reverted your refactoring right after you saw an objection. And yes ofcourse you should have used the Strike markup to show what you had done. But since your deletion did not preserve the full original intent of the author, it was wrong to begin with. This time is ok but you should know that you shouldnt do it in future, unless you (1) strike it (and not delete) and (2) sign your name saying that it was you who did it. Cirt has replied to you on that content noticeboard is waiting for you to reply. As again you should show what specific problems you have about articles and not focus on an editor or explain if or why they are upset and so on. Focus on the article, not the editor. If you're not interested in talking about specific issues in an article then there's not much point in trying to "resolve disputes" because those disputes come out of specfic issues in articles. So I would advise you to reply to Cirt on that noticeboard and follow any further discussion on the article talk pages where you see specific problems, and point out the problems you have. And once again, focus on article issues and not the editor.
"have tried to leave my opinion on the matter out of it." - then perhaps you should withdraw yourself out of this dispute resolution unless people ask you for help and advice? Or you could focus on the article issues directly on their talk pages.
"That's one of the reasons I didn't think it was important for me to read up on all the discussions, articles, and issues involved." - sorry but no one can resolve any disputes without looking at what the disputes are about. It would be like a judge trying to decide on a case without wanting to hear what the defendents and prosecuters have to say.
I urge you now to stop focusing on Cirt now and use the same time and effort to focus instead on the article issues directly on their talk pages.--Matt57 (talkcontribs) 00:57, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your opinions. I will consider them carefully. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:08, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
CoM I see you are still doing the same things I pointed out to you above in this long discussion. --Matt57 (talkcontribs) 19:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your input CoM. Unlike you, Brumski (talk · contribs) does appear to have done the due diligence and analyzed my work on the article. In two comments, Brumski supports the tremendous amount of referencing and research and writing improvements I have done to the article. See Brumski's comments The sources directly support the text, and Reply to Redheylin. Not much else to say here, perhaps it is best to take a break from this line of back and forth banter. It is clearly not going anywhere. You have your opinion that Redheylin's POV is for some reason right and you chose to post that POV at the content noticeboard despite there already being a thread on the same subject directly above you, and the fact that at Talk:North Carolina v. Alford and at Talk:Alford plea, multiple different third-party editors support my referencing work. Cheers, Cirt (talk) 11:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

2009 Arbcom Voting Guide

Despite my protestations, secret balloting was adopted for this year's Arbcom election. There's probably a discussion page somewhere, but who can be bothered finding it. And all of the fun questions get removed anyway by ne'er do well clerks (which rhymes with jerks). So for anyone interested here are my opinions:

KnightLago ...Who? Oppose.

Jehochman Strong Oppose. Never heard of him.

Hersfold Strong Oppose. Sounds British. Possibly female. Violates jury of peers theory. We shouldn't be mixing genders on Wikipedia.

Secret Strong Oppose. We shouldn't be promoting secrets. Transparency is better.

Mailer Diablo Strong Oppose. "Mail demon" name makes me think of junk mail. I don't like junk mail.

Kirill Lokshin Strong Oppose. Sounds foreign.

Fred Bauder Strong Support per Wikipedia Review opposition. Based on that, this editor is probably wholesome and not out to destroy the encyclopedia (at least not right away).

Seddon Strong Oppose. Something insidious about the name Seddon. I don't know what it refers to, but seems to be based on the same root as sedition, sedentary, and sounds a bit like "sit on".

Cla68 Strong Support. Nothing offensive about username. Default to keep.

SirFozzie Strong Oppose. There are enough muppets on Arbcom already. And we don't need any more royals.

Shell Kinney Oppose. Seems foreign, possibly British. Collecting and playing with shells seem childish or dreamy or something. Too cutesy.

RMHED Strong Support. You'd have to be crazy to oppose RMHED.

Xavexgoem Neutral. Username is a bit weird, but also kind of cool. Unsure.

Coren Strongest possible Oppose Hasn't apologized to me for failing to ban those bugging me.

MBK004 Oppose Might think he's a secret agent. Username lacks originality.

Fritzpoll Oppose Makes me think of polling on the "fritz". As Arbcoms vote on things, I don't think that seems like a good thing.

William M. Connolley Strongest Possible Support We need to shake things up at Arbcom. Bringing in some new perspectives from those who share a willingness to compromise is the way to go.

AGK Strong Oppose Dick.

Kmweber Oppose Seems British. Possibly female.

Steve Smith Support Football players are underrepresented on Arbcom. Smith is having a tough season and is unlikely to make the playoffs, so it's the least we can do to give him something to be a part of that will make him feel wanted and needed.

Rusilik0 Oppose Edits physics articles, apparently. I don't want to be judged by people who are smarter than I am.

Wehwalt Oppose Possibly British.

Unomi Oppose Possibly foreign. Could be female.

I hope this voting guide is helpful. If there's a policy against my posting it, too bad. Suck it. I do what I want! ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinions. I will consider them carefully. Bongomatic 07:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Disclaimer An editor e-mailed me about my supposed voting guide, so let me clarify that the ridiculous secret voting process which excludes collegial discussion is the inspiration for the above approach.

I think my voting guideline is very appropriate in light of the consensus (of sorts) that has adopted an outrageous rejection of Wikipedia's community ideals and history of weighing arguments and working through the voting process in a collegial and collaborative manner. We are now expected to check boxes on an automated voting form, and hope someone else does the checking up to make sure socks aren't being used. In such a grievous circumstance, we are left with little else than our sense of humor.

So, as other's face Hal and his autmomated voting guide, I hope they will appreciate this ridiculously superficial and biased approach to voting as being consistent with the ridiculous approach to voting that's actually been adopted.

Comedy is a tough business, but I am standing by my absurd suggestions above as an ironic (if failed and perhaps misunderstood) attempt at humor. And of course we should strive to be as inclusive as possible and to recruit a more diverse range of editors of all genders, backgrounds, opinions, and body mass indexes. In the meantime, pass the Arbys and doughnuts bro. And "I do what I want" is a Cartman quote, and my voting guide is a tribute to his world view. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


You may find this data useful; it lists the most prolific contributors to Commons in order. David is about number 60; I am 27th, including bots.[8] David certainly knows that when I say something is a featured picture drive it's credible. Both Jake Wartenberg and I have done featured restorations. See this gallery. Durova371 07:06, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi Durova. I'm not exactly sure what this message is intended to communicate. I'm well aware that you are an extraordinary contributor. Your WikiCup victory, article contributions, mentorships, and photo work speak for themselves. I was not being sly when I said "with all due respect".
I do think you were taking the socking issue a bit personally and I was trying to provide more perspective. The community seems to be split on whether it's better to be lenient, respectful and to continue extending good faith even to those who mess up, or to severely punish breaches of community trust. For some reason when people slip up here we seem to like to crush them completely. This seems punitive to me, and while there was inappropriate behavior I didn't see anything particularly damaging or disruptive, only promotional and inappropriate.
I think it would be healthier for the community to try to be as kind and reasonable as possible to our contributors even even when they mess up. I don't think keeping order requires throwing the book, so to speak, at people when they mess up. Many others have different opinions and they're entitled to them, however misguided they may be. :) There are patterns of behaviors from other exditors that I think are far more damaging and destructive that go unaddressed. So David's socking to put up his photos doesn't seem to me to be that big of a deal. I think asking him to take a month off and requiring him to use one and only one accoutn going forward is fair enough. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
No boast is intended. David's claim was disengenouous. Jake Wartenberg has done historic image restorations before and has featured credits for it. Getting him started on another restoration expressed, He's apologized; let's all get back to content. The image was a photograph of a theatrical backdrop and a man carrying a prop. David's own uploads have pushed the envelope: the set of a gay porn studio during filming, a homeless girl urinating in the street. Yet he was blanking the announcement of a g-rated featured picture drive. I have indeed extended great amounts of respect toward him and defended him in the past. Yet the same day as insulted me on a sock account he was emailing me cordially. If he had any legitimate complaint he could have raised it properly. Instead he was two faced. Yes, I do change my opinion about a person under those circumstances. Durova371 06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I understand what you're saying and you have some good points. I am well aware that many of our editors have flaws and are human. I think it's best to try to be accepting and mericful and to stay focused on the best interests of the encyclopedia. Cheers. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Am I too late?

Is it too late for me to sign up to the 2010 Bacon Challenge? Just wondering.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 20:23, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm thinking January 1st will be the official kick-off. But article ideas can be added any time! I also considered starting it sooner, as a Christmas gift to the community, since there are so many synergies with the Doughnut Drive. How are things? ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Things are okay. I'm considering creating one of those redlinks on the 2010 Bacon Challenge page. Of course, I won't include it onto the mainspace until March, as the page says. Out of curiousity, is there a prize for the participant who creates the most bacon articles?--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 20:38, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure that user:Drmies is planning to put up a $1,000 reward and subscriptions to a bacon of the month club as incentives.
If the article you're going to work on is listed, you might want to note that you're working on it so other editors can help and nobody overlaps. But if you want to keep the bacon all to yourself I understand. We're going to be especially inclusive this year and are trying to get bacon alternatives for the Veggies and those keeping kosher an Halal included in the important event. That's the plan anyway. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:50, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

An idea

You probably know about the WikiCup, well how about a WikiBacon Trophy if there isn't already something in place? A point scoring system is used and all participants are awarded points for their work on articles. At the end of the challenge, the paritcipant with the most points is awarded the WikiBaconTrophy. Point scoring could be something like this:

  • 3 points for every bacon article that you create
  • 1 point for every bacon article that you didn't create but helped to improve.
  • 1 point for every bacon picture uploaded used in any article (whether you created the article or not)
  • An additional 2 points for any bacon article that you created that gets "Good Article" status and an additional 3 points for any article that you created that gets "Featured Article" status. Any bacon article that you didn't create but contributed to that becomes a GA or FA earns you an extra point as well.

What do you think about this proposal?--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 21:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. It's been non-competitive in the past. But a Side of Bacon Award and Bacon Bits of Recognition for top contributors might be worth considering. I'm not very "crafty", so someone else would have to work up the award designs. Would you be willing to score the event? Post the idea on the talk page and see what others think. I believe they have it watchlisted and are eagerly awaiting the start. I know Kelapstick has been upset at having to wait so long to get started. Last year we tried to get an all bacon DYK update, but had to settle for having them chopped up and spread out over the updates. ;) ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:08, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
I would be more than happy to be the point scorer for the event, hopefully my real-life job leaves me enough time to do this. I will think about more ways to score points and then I'll post it on the talk page. Cheers.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 21:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Based on a picture being worth a thousand words, I think photos should be worth 2 points. And maybe points for DYK nom and for anyone listed as a contributor at a DYK nom would be a way to score points for those asisting with content building. Otherwise it's not clear to me what helping out on an article entails. Is a copy-edit worth a point? Anyway, keep it simple. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Looks done. Let the feedback begin...--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 21:42, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Cool. Between Doc's prize money and awards and the Wiki-trophies, there should be thousands of participants. :) If you compete can you still be score keeper? Hmmm... :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:46, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Don't worry. I don't expect to win. Just to be involved for the fun of it. I don't mind not competing either but I DO want to be score keeper ;) I intend to compete though. ;)--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 21:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Sounds good. You're getting me excited about the event. :) I think you can compete and be score keeper. Of course if you win there may be protests and possibly rioting... ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Flitch of bacon

Please see Great Dunmow. Redheylin (talk) 08:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

And have an Azalea.

An Azalea

It's like an azalea, but the same. Redheylin (talk) 09:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Interesting Redheylin. Thanks for the link. I wonder what exactly a "flitch of bacon" is? ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
It's a salted side of bacon. But I never heard the word without "Dunmow" in front. Redheylin (talk) 23:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
We had a mountain (or wild azalea?) and some of the more vigorous domesticated azaleas where I grew up. Those woody shrubs also grow in the hills and mountains in the east coast with rhodedondrons, but the fact that I don't even remember what season they bloom is not a good sign. Are dogwoods fall blooming? Perhaps I've been out amongst the Aspen, and then the junipers and pines, and more recently the palm trees and cacti too long. Bottlebrush flowers here are cool. I think they're native to Australia? Loads of ice plant here too. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

December 2009

Nuvola apps important.svg Please do not attack other editors, as you did here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. If you continue, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. . John Carter (talk) 18:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Accusing someone of doing something that you are engaging in is hypocrisy. That's not a personal attack. And your history of disruptive and biased behavior towards good faith content contributors is totally unwelcome here. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Using blatantly insulting lagnuage is a violation of WP:NPA. Please consider this your final warning, taking into account the rather pathetic attempt to justify your own actions on the page in question with yet more personal attacks. John Carter (talk) 18:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
John Carter I have witnessed your disruptive and improper behavior time and again and pointed it out to you repeatedly. Clearly you are involved, and you've made it clear previously that you are unhappy with my being outspoken against the way you and GWH conduct yourselves. Please allow parties that don't have axes to grind to resolve this dispute. Your involvement is totally unhelpful and I think you should carefully consider the way you violate our core policies and treat editors on Wikipedia. I'd appreciate it if you'd stay off my talk page. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Hello, ChildofMidnight. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 19:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Poppy seed

Thanks for your help with Poppy seed. I have nominated Poppyseed oil for DYK. --02:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Cool. It looks like an interesting article. If it was split off I think you're supposed to note that in the edit history (with a link to the source) in order to maintain the edit history. Of course that might cause problems for the DYK, I don't know. I'm just letting you know. Cheers. Happy eating, painting, or radiographying, as per your itnerests. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
I think it is a legitimate 5x expansion, although some of the text I wrote during the expansion I wrote in another article. That is noted in edit summaries. I don't like how the DYK rules encourage drafting in user subpages rather than in article space, but doing it there does make life easier in some ways. --Una Smith (talk) 03:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Okay. I hadn't looked closely. I just remembered some content about poppy seed oil as a paint base, I think, a while ago. :) Looks like a good and interesting article. Kudos. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Peck's Pier and Pavillion

If you do the Google News search for "Peck's Pier" you get two hits from the LA Times--one says 33th, the other says 34th street. Drmies (talk) 03:03, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, at least it's not 32nd and 35th street. I already modified the article accordingly, as I'm always one step ahead of you. I also added some bits about the pavillion. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
As long as you're working up articles on Manhattan Beach sites you should check out the furor over Sand Dune Park (apparently not an article). Some property rights and racial aspects to that present day controversy, if you're interested. Kind of sad really. LA has so much money, but our park system kind of sucks if you ask me. Like you have to go up stairs to take the bike path across the Hermosa and Manahattan Beach border. How lame is that in an area of $10 million pads??? Are you getting some vicarious beach life living in? It's freezing here now. How anyone can survive temperatures below 65 degrees is beyond me.ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I'm not working on those at all. Rich CA MFers, pff. No, no beach life here--one more week of school. They did actually predict a freeze today! Drmies (talk) 03:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
This is your kind of tax and spend big government utopia Doc. Come on out! ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:28, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
What about User:Drmies/sandbox2? There isn't much there. Dropping Peck in the Manhattan Beach Pier article seems a bit sad. Going back to Cali? I don't think so! Drmies (talk) 04:52, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Non-notable college football players

Please do not make non-notable college football players, they do not meet WP:Athlete.--Yankees10 04:06, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Which player are you talking about? I don't make articles on non-notable subjects. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Freddie Barnes has 18 touchdowns, more than 138 catches, and is one of three finalists for best receiver in college football (Fred Biletnikoff Award). Your article on Mark Barron, however, is marginal. One good season in a shakey conference... but maybe Drmies knows more about that. He's no Jerraud Powers, that's for sure. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:25, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Marquise Goodwin, Alshon Jeffrey, Darvin Adams are all not notable, Mark Barron is a star college safety, all of those others are nobodys currently. Freddie Barnes is notable because of him being a finalist for the award, which I hadnt realized he was a finalist for, not because of his receptions.--Yankees10 04:53, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Alshon Jeffrey is a true freshman phenom and was probably notable as a high school athlete. Mark Barron is a nobody on a team that chokes against non-BCS opponents. Talk to me after they get rolled by Florida. I accept your apology. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:58, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
In matters of college football I defer to ChildofMidnight completely and utterly. Yankees10, you are addressing a tower of authority, and that Jerraud Powers would be brought up in this discussion is no coincidence--considering the small matter of the dog. Drmies (talk) 05:00, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
On behalf of Charlie Weiss, Jerraud Powers, and Jason Witten I appreciate your acknowledgment Doc. It's encouraging to see that you're learning. It makes it all worthwhile. Why is this kid trying delete articles on phenoms who hold records and are rewriting record books? He prodded Freddie Barnes. No I'm not kidding. I have nothing against keeping an article on Mark Barron until he gets taken in 7th round and cut from the Lions practice squad, but let's show some respect for the true athletes. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:05, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
You must be just a dumb immature kid, Alshon Jeffery is the nobody and does not meet WP standards, Barron is one of the top 5 safeties in the nation and meets standards. I am not even a fan of Alabama so that is not the reason I created it, so dont act like a smart ass because I tried to get your article deleted. Why is Jerraud Powers even being brought up, he is in the NFL and there is no question about his notability.--Yankees10 05:06, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
That Barron fellow has 7 interceptions in his whole career and many of his tackles came against Florida International and North Texas. If he doesn't get hurt next week he won't be able to stop Tebow. Also, he attends a school that is constantly violating the rules, paying off the referees, and handing out free textbooks. It's outrageous. Stop fooling around and focus on improving the encyclopedia. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:13, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Um, Barron is a sophomore who barely played last year, and has seven interceptions this year alone. Seriously stop being a dumbass just because you dont like Alabama, you sound like a fool.--Yankees10 05:16, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Can you point me to an article with substantial coverage of Mark Barron outside of local sources? ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:24, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Can you point me to sources on Marquise Goodwin, Alshon Jeffrey, or Darvin Adams--Yankees10 05:25, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Goodwin plays on the best team in college football which should be almost enough in and of itself. He also completed in five track events in high school broke the National High School record in the long jump at the U.S. Championships, finishing with a mark of 8.18 meter (26-10). So he's an Olympic caliber athlete with the best high jump mark EVER for a high school athlete.
Alshon Jeffrey was widely recruited and was involved in that "you'll be working at a gas station" controversy (I think it was Tennessee's coach who said that?). He'll be dominating Alabama for years to come and is a phenom. Loads of sources discussing him. His High School basketball team went 80-0.
So that leaves Darvin Adams. 10 touchdowns, 6'3" and 185 pounds. He'll be racking up the points against Alabama's defense for years to come. Loads of sources on him also. Can you explain why one season with 7 catches makes Barron notable and link to something discussing his "achievments"? There may well be controversies surrounding him like there were for that Ingram fellow. That team has difficulty with rules and fair play. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:01, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
None of those are valid reasons at all. Your dislike for a college is not a valid reason on why a player is not notable. You dont belong editing wikipedia if your gonna act like this.--Yankees10 01:17, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree. I probably don't belong here. But did you see that I added projects and photo requests to a couple of articles you created? If you could help improve articles I create with similar enthusiasm for collegial collaboration I would really appreciate it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:52, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

<--Yankee, I prefer to stay out of these kinds of disputes. I will have you know, though, that ChildofMidnight is a well-known POV warrior trying to get everything deleted that relates to Alabama's Roll Tide football team, out of sheer agony probably. For a while, I automatically prodded everything he wrote. For crying out loud, he once speedied Bear Bryant, claiming "disruptive coaching" (by which he meant winning more than some Gamecocks or Aubies, I believe). Drmies (talk) 04:37, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

That's not completely accurate. I support the creation of an article or articles on University of Alabama college football rule violations, fishing trips, and textbook giveaways for example. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:51, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
And I advocate giving California back to Mexico. Woof! Drmies (talk) 04:52, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
A lot of people familiar with the situation here would suggest your position supports the status quo. The Joe Flacco article says "He grew up in a jewish family in a jewish neighborhood." Is that true? I suppose I will have to use my GooFoo skills. And isn't Jewish capitalized? ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:56, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Let's not talk college football; I may cry. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 07:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

  • FSU know, I am actually rooting for you this year, since I think BB should go out on a high note. Not that I like him, mind you, just for the sake of proper veneration. Drmies (talk) 00:50, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
    • Well, never mind! Drmies (talk) 03:10, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
      • EXCELLENT JOB! Although Freddie Barnes may not be as notable as other college players (we could debate this for years so let's just move on), the article was WORTHY of Wikipedia entry. Upon checking recent edits on Golden Tate (we could also debate this one for years - but I won't since I am a Notre Dame fan and need to go into hiding until next Fall), I see that Freddie Barnes now has a link. The work that you did on Freddie Barnes expands Wikipedia and meets all of the requirements for WP:Athlete ("People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport" - College Football is the highest level of amateur football and therefore meets the criteria). He links to other Wiki articles (Golden Tate) and also has plenty of references to support the article. Kudos!! Morning277 (talk) 00:14, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

What's in a name?

She doesn't look like she eats enough bacon or donuts, but check out the Mona Lisa smile. Geoff Who, me? 22:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

What is with this Crapo? Her smile? Have you gone completely mad? I don't see anything about bacon, doughnuts, Minnesota potluck "salads" or modern Dutch architects. What does this have to do with anything important? :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:17, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
It's just that in moving mountains to find photos for the Doughnut Drive, one sometimes uncovers unexpected gems like this one. Plus I saw Elf on the plane last night for the seventh time and thought you might need a hug. Geoff Who, me? 22:28, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Speaking of moving mountains, perhaps I'll head over to the doughnuttery and pick up something to snack on. I can use the excuse of needing to take some photos. And I did need a hug, thank you. Now I would like some more from someone tall, busty, and very good looking who has extraordinary patience and a deep appreciation for sarcasm. :) Come to think of it, this Crapo lady has a nice look about her. I noticed she was photographed wearing her glasses which I think is interesting. She looks dignified to me, and that she is comfortable with her smile seems a good sign. See if she wants my number. Cheers Glane. Stay out of trouble. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Country Question

See changes here. You are American, right? Also is User:Drmies competing? United States or Netherlands? Thanks.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 01:42, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

If possible, I would like to be represented by the flag for New York, Alabama, or Afghanistan (in honor of our troops). Are individual copy-edit worth 1/2 point of copy-editing an article? Maybe it shoul dbe copy-editing an article 1 point. I don't know. I've never done one of these things. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:52, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
I'll do 1 point for copy-editing but you only score the point once for each article. Not per each copy-edit to a single article if that is what you are saying. As for representing New York, I'll put you down as USA and if you want to change to New York we can deal with that later.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 01:58, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan. Thanks for working it up. Looks like it's going to be an exciting competition. Sizzling! ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:03, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

User:Sky Attacker/Bacon WikiCup 2010

Bacon WikiCup resources are currently on this page. In the "Points Table" section the users with a globe are users with nationalities unknown. If you know where any of those users are from, please let me know or if you know what to do, adjust the table accordingly. Cheers.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 04:38, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I've also asked LadyofShallot. If you can think of anyone other than the twelve entered so far that would participate, ask them in. Twelve is a good number though.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 04:59, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


What do you say? Finished my first one for Bacon 2010. Drmies (talk) 05:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

You might want to do some copy-editing after you wake up tomorrow. ;) ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:25, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


...there CoM. It's prolly my lack of clue and such, and I admit that I've been woefully absent from the AN bords and all ... but I kinda got the impression that you've tempered your posts to some extent. I just wanted to say kudos for that. Yep .. there's a ton of stuff that could use a little fixin around here and all ... but I kinda get the impression that you've backed off a bit and decided to approach things a little differently than you once did. Cool beans. All my best to ya! — Ched :  ?  06:17, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Ched, let sleeping dogs lie! Ahoooow! Drmies (talk) 06:19, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
I like to think of myself as a paragon of calm deliberation and propriety. I always carefully evaluate and measure my comments to make sure they will be discrete and soothing. A soft touch is kind of my hallmark. Thanks for noticing. :)
I do actually have some serious comments to make too Ched, but I probably need some sleep before posting them. Yet here I go... I do know what you mean (I think), and you are correct (I think).
And yet there are a lot of problems here, as you note, and some of them acute. I can't always turn my back on them, and hope that by ignoring them they'll go away. But I do in fact try to let things go and to be more judicious in my approach.
It's not all positive though Ched, there are lots of subjects and articles that are important and interesting, but just not worth the effort of putting up with the nastiness and incivility. That's really kind of sad. Sorry if that puts a negative spin on your kind and generous comments. I really appreciate them.
Many people have been generous and kind to me here and I am deeply and sincerely thankful for the good will and good faith so many have shown. I've had many laughs and a lot of fun, in addition to the agonies of all the ridiculous frustrations.
I've tried to pass some of that spirit of collegial cooperation and good humor on (some of it gets lost in translation to be sure) and I hope that there are other editors who feel a little more comfortable trying to contribute in good faith while being themselves, without having to play the politics, cabalism, flame wars and such, knowing that they are not alone.
Clearly I'm not perfect, but I do try to do a good job and to be helpful and fair. I hope things are okay with you and yours, and that you enjoy a very festive, happy, and healthy holiday season and New Year. I hope that 2010 will be your best year yet! Cheers.
And most of all, it's hard not to feel inspired as we bear witness to Doc's renewed committment to exercise, eating right, and getting a good night's rest. Healthy mind, healthy body are key, and his leadership by example is truly inspiring, and certainly speaks to the importance of personal responsibility. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Please accept this proposal

User:Drmies has an excellent proposal for our WikiCup. See here ;)--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 06:32, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Strongest Possible Support. But I do want a point for every comma I remove and two points per semicolon I get rid of (notice the dangling preposition!). ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:50, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm currently working on the WikiCup now. Correct me if you know that I am wrong but I am guessing that User:Juliancolton is from Ireland and User:LadyofShallot who may participate is from the United States.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 06:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Heh, I like the proposal too. Personally, though, I don't really like how changing six commas (editing) earns you a point, while actually adding content like images or heavily expanding articles only earns you a few more. It is out of ratio, if you know what I mean. If the points for adding content were all increased, I think it would be better. Opinions? ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 11:21, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the copy-editing reward system is a bit tricky. One way to go would be to do away with it entirely. Or maybe a point could be given for copy-editing an entire article as opposed to for individual copy-edits limited to 1 per article (which incentives making small changes to lots of articles instead of substantial changes and content additions). ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:23, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Everything Tastes Better with Bacon

How do I sign up to represent  Norway? Page is currently sandboxed, at User:Cirt/Everything Tastes Better with Bacon. Cheers, Cirt (talk) 09:46, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you Norwegian Cirt? I will add you as best I can. You are most welcome. Please let anyone else you think might want to participate know about this momentous contest. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:30, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
How does one sign up? Cirt (talk) 16:33, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Here's a link to the page Bacon Challenge 2010. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, added there. What about User:Sky Attacker/Bacon WikiCup 2010? Cirt (talk) 17:18, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Done. See "Points Table" section.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 17:58, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. :) Cirt (talk) 18:01, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, ChildofMidnight. You have new messages at Paalappoo's talk page.
Message added 14:13, 4 December 2009 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Paalappoo (talk) 14:13, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Bacon, bacon, You're puttin' the moves on me...(Episode 312)

Geoff Who, me? 16:49, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


Have you started anything for the Bacon Challenge already? Report it here to get your first points. I'll fill in the points table section later once several reports have been made. --Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 18:04, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

End of topic ban coming

Hi ChildofMidnight, my apologies for bothering you on your talk page, but an issue has sort of been thrown in my lap and I need to contact you to get your thoughts on it. You probably know that your topic ban on Obama articles is expiring in a couple of weeks, at which point both you and User:Scjessey will be able to return to editing those articles if you so choose. However the prohibitions against the two of you (and against you and Wikidemon) against any interaction will still be in place. If you all end up working on Obama articles and commenting on talk pages it could get difficult to avoid at least indirect interaction and it would be good to know the ground rules more firmly going on (obviously there has been a lack of clarity on some of the aspects of the ArbCom ruling in the past, which as you well know has led to one or two questionable blocks in your case, something we want to avoid going forward). I've discussed this with Scjessey and Wikidemon both on my talk page and Wikidemon's, and recently brought up the issue on arbitrator Carcharoth's talk page.

The first basic question is simply, do you think you might head back to editing on Obama-related articles? If you're not at all interested in that I don't think we have to worry much about clarifying anything since the three of you have mostly done a good job avoiding one another (for the record Scjessey has said he definitely intends to return to editing there). However if you want to start working on those again as is of course your right I would like to put the issue before the ArbCom and try to get some guidance from them. The only objective here as far as I'm concerned is to have a good, agreed upon understanding of how things will work if y'all are working on some of the same articles, such that none of you get blocked for inadvertently violating the interaction ban. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this matter and then if clarification is needed I can put it to the committee so you don't have to worry about falling afoul your restrictions by even asking the question. Again sorry to bug you about this, but I think it would be good for all concerned if we could get this squared away before the topic bans expire. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:07, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The terms of the interaction prohibition seem clear to me. Those under the restriction must refrain from commenting to or about one another. This doesn't mean they can't participate in article work or discussion together, although due care is certainly appropriate. There have already been numerous occasions where editors under this restriction have participated in the same content and discussion areas, and except for some violations by one of the editors who doesn't appear to understand the restriction, there hasn't been much of a problem. While reasonable care should be taken, good faith should be assumed, and as long as the restricted editors avoid commenting directly to or about one another I don't see a problem. If you're concerned about the restrictions going forward I suggest you apprise the editor violating them on your talk page and in several other pplaces that they are not allowed to comment to or about me directly. Thanks. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:58, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Okay, well if you're not interested in receiving clarification then perhaps I'll leave it be for now, though I might put the question to ArbCom at some point if the other editors think it's important. I agree it has not been much of a problem up to this point, but if you do plan on possibly returning to editing of some of the Obama articles (you didn't say either way) then I could see possible confusion arising. For example, if you start a talk page thread suggesting new content, I'm really not clear if it's okay for Wikidemon or Scjessey to offer some thoughts without engaging you directly (or, even more difficult, if the discussion goes on a bit of a tangent and they reply to something someone else said, but still in the same thread). Likewise if someone asks a question on an article talk page and Scjessey answers it, I'm not clear if it's okay for you to then offer a different answer to the person who originally posted. The point is I would not want an admin swooping in to block in a situation like that when the party in question thought what they were doing was acceptable. Obviously this has been a problem before as you well know (for example one admin blocking you for this comment, which was then overruled by a member of ArbCom), and my only goal here was to possibly avoid future occurrences along those lines.
I don't have much of a problem with any of the discussion on my talk page, as the editors there were clearly interested in clarifying what would or would not be appropriate, and then thinking about how things might work once the topic bans are up. I don't read that as a violation of the restrictions, though others might in good faith disagree. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:37, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
I recognize there are grey areas (you'll recall I was temporarily blocked for a month after editing the ACORN article, which I still don't think has much of anything to do with Obama and certainly my edits were unrelated), but I think it's possible to abide by the letter and spirit of the restrictions as long as they are in place. If someone messes up, I don't think more than a reminder is necessary, although that's a courtesy I haven't usually been granted in the past. There will always be those who seek to malign editors by distorting good faith efforts at respecting the rules, and I think attempts at distortion and disruption as a means of intimidation and harassment will always remain our greatest concern here on Wikipedia. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

National Flags

I don't think it will be an issue. It is just a nice way to see the international involvement in the event. Even from COI, I predict no issues related to this and if there is we'll be sure to figure something out. Thanks.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 21:27, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Cool. As a regular here I've probably become paranoid. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:00, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Roflm-arse-o and spitting all over my monitor!
Friend, you have such a fine mind and artful sense of humour!
You make tremendously astute observations, expressed clearly and winningly.
If you are serious about using your considerable skills, and your good heart, for the benefit of this project, and everything says you are ...
... please consider doing what we always said we would do:
I'm frightfully serious and boring, but so are many simple normal contributors who call for 3rd option support.
People who request 3rd options are infinitely easier to deal with, because they have the humility not to shop for half of Wiki to solve their "problem".
If anyone posts a problem to ANI (including administrators!), I have grave concerns about their sense of proportion.
Naughty, naughty, <trout you> naughty CoM!
I'll have some time in a week or so, would you be willing to help me help others in a small way for a while?
Alastair Haines (talk) 00:49, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
That's a very long and a very strange thread on ANI to be sure. If you're referring to the microwave section, I can't take credit. What is this third option? I'm also not sure what you mean by "we always said we would do:"? My involvement in that ANI thread is actually based on an attempt at mediation, so I think I'm going to stick to bacon and doughnuts for at least a little while. I just realized what you mean by third option: third opinion? It took me a minute. How funny.
I was thinking there was some sort of third way being discussed and whispered about in the corners of Wikipedia as an alternative to the drama boards. I was trying to imagine what kind of approach it entailed. You may be right about the subthread I added being trout worthy. But at some point the pesterers and disruptive trouble makers who use an ends justify the means approach to pushing their biases on the encyclopedia need to be called out.
What's the story on this Admantius (journal)? I've seen it mentioned here and there, but am more familiar with adamantium. Has it made it to incubation? So many strange and interesting threads to try and keep track of, and so many more that are strange but uninteresting. Take care of yourself Alastair, give me a few months and we'll see about doing some co-mediation. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:24, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Super! You deserve a break. Then we go and make good karma together. :))
I imagine I'll be calling out few people out on some stuff in the meantime, unless common sense prevails.
Adamantius is a top 15% peer reviewed journal, dealing with one of early Christianity's most notable figures--Origen (a man with enough balls to cut off his own!) The august body of scholars whose work and reviews it documents are rather numerous, despite being hand-picked, since they are drawn from no less than six Italian state universities. Their work and reviews of their work are listed in major indexes. However, they have the misfortune of being humble. Since the journal is focussed on their own work (though reviewing the best of the best from abroad), these engagingly clumsy Italians refer to their journal as a "newsletter". This one word was deemed sufficient evidence that Wiki should salt any trace of the existence of the group. No matter that a lengthy consultative process involving select academics, professional research associations and even the public rated this journal as among the top 15%.
Curiously, the admin who closed the original deletion discussion, considers Australian Exclusive Brethren to be so notable he even researched an article on a book about them. A handful of bizarre Aussie Christians are worth a whole article, but experts on a founding father of Christianity are not. Go figure! He's entitled to his prejudices, but should we reward him by endorsing them?
People have actually proposed incubation, but I find that odd for two reasons.
  1. Notability doesn't depend on the current state of an article. If a topic is worth incubating, it's worth stubbing.
  2. Why ask me to own this article, I appreciate the confidence shown in me; but there are others (especially Italians) with considerably better access. What we need is a stub, so people who actually know something (i.e. have access to sources that know something) can make the decisions.
I've mentioned I'll be restoring the stub and proposing it for deletion myself, lol. I'll probably argue both sides of the case in that discussion. It's high time people stopped promoting an adversarial model of discussion, or at least stop expressing surprise when the inevitable disharmony results.
Friend, when consensus is achieved (and it's often hard and rare), there is no disharmony. Disharmony proves any claim of consensus to be false. If people claim consensus supports them, they are speaking a language other than English. What they mean is "there's more of us than them". Counting is easier than reading, thinking and speaking clearly. The people who scream "consensus" are precisely the people obstructing it.
Have a nice day, a nice week and a nice year. And have a break! Alastair Haines (talk) 09:29, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Freddie Barnes

Symbol question.svg Hello! Your submission of Freddie Barnes at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Calmer Waters 00:25, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Bacon and Flitches

Ainsworth wrote a novel on the flitch of bacon. It would make a nice DYK hook. When I put it together, would you like to help out? That way, you would have an extra bacon credit for your bacon thing. He started a whole trend and I have a nice hook for it - did you know that the novel The Flitch of Bacon described a tradition of awarding bacon for sexual acts? (technically, it was sexual fidelity between a married couple, but still, sexual). :) Ottava Rima (talk) 01:22, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm very happy to help with it, thanks for the offer. :) I'm less concerned about point scoring. It's more about survival for me at this point Ottava. :) Speaking of which, how is the Arb process treating you? I haven't had a chance to read up on the proceedings. I try to avoid those pages as best I can.
I did see John Vandenburg resigned for what didn't appear to be anything much. But the oversights obscured what the whole thing was about, so all I could tell was the that Wikipedia lawyer was involved somehow and people weren't very happy about it. Interesting times! Please do drop me a link for the flitch once you get it started, or if you want to pass it on, add it to the Bacon Challenge page where there's a list of article subjects that need to be developed. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:30, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
The Arb thing is interesting. No one has provided any real abuse that I've done and it is clear that those like Mattisse had major stalking and sock puppet issues. Rlevse originally proposed a mentorship but went inactive. It originally started with something like 14 active arbs and it seems like they have dropped to almost nothing. In the end, it will probably just be Brad by himself voting. ;/ Ottava Rima (talk) 01:47, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
"Drop me a link for the flitch"?? What is this - some sort of folk song? If it isn't it's going to be - soon.
Oooh drop me a link for the flitch!
For with clickable pigmeat I'm taken,
And my left-button finger doth twitch
For a page-load of virtual bacon.

Thankyew... Redheylin (talk) 01:57, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

There's no easy way to tell you this, COM..................I...... don't eat meat. There, I said it. Any chance of a cream-cheese beagle? Er, dachshund... bagel? Redheylin (talk) 02:41, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to attempt to work on article content now

Hopefully some sanity will return to ANI, and the admins engaging in battlefield behavior will stop their disruptive behavior. If anyone has any questions or requires an explanation on anything, please let me know. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

It would be best if you finished up what you started and for example responded on ANI to people until the situation was considered resolved by all involved parties. As you can guess dispute resolution is not an easy process. If one is able to do a good job focusing on articles, its usually enough for the average person. --Matt57 (talkcontribs) 19:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I've said my piece. If there are any additional questions or concerns just let me know and I'm happy to address them. As long as there are no more attacks or innacurate statements made against me by John Carter, Tarc, or others, I'd like to get back to article work. Thanks. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure when the above mentioned editors made an "attack" on you, before you started that issue on ANI. --Matt57 (talkcontribs) 20:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Yes. I know you're not aware aware of their history of disruptive behavior and attacks. That's clear from your comments. Cheers. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I think its the other way around. I've been around long enough to know that I agreed with the other editors who supported some kind of action on you. I had talked to you above as well hoping that you would stop. Hopefully you've learned by now not to take part in disputes on ANI anymore, unless (1) they involve you directly (e.g. where you're editing those articles) or (2) if someone asks for your input. Thanks and good luck. --Matt57 (talkcontribs) 20:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I am a prolific editor here and I will not be chased off of any area of the encyclopedia if I can help it. Thanks for your input. I'd like to get back to content contributing now. Take care of yourself and have fun. I'm not interested in continuing this discussion with you, as I tried to make clear previously. You're input is unasked for, unconstructive, and your involvement unwelcome, so perhaps following your own advice would be appropriate. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
CoM, I do hope that you will review your approach later - as a general point, you need not necessarily agree with feedback, but potentially appearing completely unreceptive does not help either. Regards, Ncmvocalist (talk) 20:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I appreciate any input you want to offer Ncm. I'm certainly not perfect and I welcome collegial suggestions. When someone takes a side and pursues their interests and point of view relentlessly on my talk page in a way that is antagonistic, after they've already let their opinions be known, it gets a bit tiresome. There is a related discussion above that went on for quite a while. I also don't think it's appropriate for an editor to tell another editor where they should or shouldn't edit. I see that kind of statement as a serious civility violation, a grotesque act of intimidation, and an improper approach that amounts to censorship. But you're welcome to disagree with me. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm glad to hear it. :) I generally agree with what you've said. but I think if someone does say all that, there is no harm in at least promising to review your edits, and amending your approach accordingly. You may still disagree by the end of the review, but you may find something else to amend/improve on (and that can sometimes make the difference, or so I've found). It'll also mean you at least tried to appreciate and respond to any concerns over specific edits. Reflecting on why someone chose to give a particular piece of feedback can effectively lead to self-improvement, whether it's in the edits/comments you choose to make (or not make), whether it's in things you should specifically avoid, or whether it's in things you should specifically do or include in commentary. Note, that I personally don't have any concerns with any of your edits, unless I've stated otherwise at a particular discussion. This was more of raising the general point, and elaborating on it now. I hope that helps. :) Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:46, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Hello! Thanks for your note. As part of my dedicated quest to waste time, and depending on your sense of humour and recollection of recent accusations levelled against you for your actions, you may or may not profitably visit and meditate over the words "maybe Cirt forgot to let you know about the image deletion or maybe he was planning to do it but we did let you know so its ok." Yours in good grief (and I really do mean it) Redheylin (talk) 00:00, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Otherwise, what you say is perfectly sensible. Redheylin (talk) 00:01, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Ugh. I was going to "no comment", but my impartial assessment (apart from disapproving of the additional "ironies" manifest in the complainant statements and wondering how to stop the bickering) is that you need to address whether you took the photo, and if not how you are the proper copyright holder of the original image. Perhaps now you will be sorry you mentioned the discussion here. Feel free to adjust your ANI comments about me accordingly. ;) ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Saudi Bacon

In Riyadh in the late 1970s, the Al Khozama hotel served Pseudo-bacon in the breakfast buffet. It was not real bacon (it was made out of beef) but it looked like bacon. It didn't really taste like bacon. After a few months, the hotel pulled it from the menu. They had complaints that it would make people think of bacon. I am trying to forget about the whole affair. Aymatth2 (talk) 02:38, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Seemed like a good idea in Baconian theory Redheylin (talk) 02:43, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Reinschweinsgebot would not go down well in Saudi either, for more than one reason. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:00, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Freddie Barnes

Updated DYK query On December 5, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Freddie Barnes, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 23:56, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Cool! Thanks. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:57, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Congrats & nice job =) ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 01:00, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Hamster :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 09:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


Not very often that I agree with you. ;-) Seems others on the thread also agree with your statement. Nicely put. Hope you have a good evening. Killiondude (talk) 02:31, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the note Killion. I honestly can't remember where we've come into disagreement previously, but if you let me know which issues you're still confused on I'd be happy to set you straight. :) Take care and have fun. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
It might have been better to refrain from commenting all together. But I thought it would be good to note the basic principle. ChildofMidnight (talk) 09:50, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Ricky Dobbs

Updated DYK query On December 6, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Ricky Dobbs, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 12:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Cool! Thanks. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:30, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Happy Festivus!

Happy Festivus! Grundle2600 (talk) 19:13, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Grundle! It's definitely a Festivus for the rest of us. I wanted to drop you a note about Crash squirrel, but I'm increasingly paranoid and didn't want to be accused of canvassing. Cheers. Have a good one. Go Titans! :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:22, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


Can you review the Family Guy season 5.--Pedro J. the rookie 00:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Translation help requested

{{helpme}} I'd like to have both of these articles [9] brought over from the Italian Wikipedia. How do I make it happen? ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

And then this one [10].

And also this one [11].

I don't want anyone to panic, but this is kind of urgent. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Look at google if you can find a strong transladure--Pedro J. the rookie 02:35, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
See WP:Translation. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 02:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
The google translations border on useless I'm afraid. See user talk:Giano page (bottom) for an example of my experience using that method. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Also, have a look at WP:RFT.The people here may be able to help also.  fetchcomms 02:40, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
You're very welcome :)  fetchcomms 04:09, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Bacon Challenge

Thanks very much for your note CoM. I had an idea for a little article for Bacon Challenge 2010 that I will try to roll out as soon as I have some time. Look forward to reading the neat contributions of everyone participating though. Best regards -- Samir 02:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Re:Image question

Basically, yeah, if an image is removed it's often sort of lost- that's why Commons is useful for galleries and categories. If the image is non-free and is removed, it will be deleted fairly quickly, but free ones will typically languish indefinitely. It'd be easy to do a database query to find all orphaned free images, I would imagine, but that's not something I'm good at... Was there something in particular you wanted to do, or were you just curious? J Milburn (talk) 10:15, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe ShakespeareFan00 (talk · contribs) works through them sometimes, tagging them to be sent to Commons. I'm sure someone will do it... J Milburn (talk) 16:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

No problem

Sorry, I've been away for a while and haven't really been responding to anything on here. Anyway, as long as the info (on the donuts) is useful, then I'm glad I could help. I also saw something about "healthy bacon" recipes, too, but I don't know how that would fit in with your bacon drive... I'll have to dig it back up for you in case you thought it might be of interest and would fit in somewhere ;-) Cheers, Shymian (talk) 09:12, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Surplus Record Machinery & Equipment Directory

I'm sorry, I have to delete the article per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Surplus Record Machinery & Equipment Directory. I know, you are a good editor, and I have often agreed with you in the past, but I have to disagree with you now. If you still think that it is definitely notable and would like to work on it, I will be happy to send you the text of the page. — Sebastian 04:53, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you so much for this extraordinarily courteous note Sebastian. You really went above and beyond. In light your kindness, I am willing to put off calling for you to be desysoped at least until the next time you delete something I want kept. :)
I am a bit surprised at the outcome. The man and the busines seemed quite notable to me. You weren't swayed by the Chicago Sun-Times story about the company that said "The Surplus Record is known as the bible of the used and surplus capital equipment industry." Oh well, I guess it's not possible to "win them all". Thanks again for your exceptionally considerate and collegial approach, and for making the extra effort to notify me of the outcome, as well as for your other contributions. It's pretty freaking cool that we're writing an encyclopedia. I remember the ones we used to have on the shelf (actually my brother had them on his shelves... so unfair!). If you're willing and able to move it to my userspace, I'll be more than happy to reintroduce it to article space when you're not looking. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:17, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Oh, to be honest, that was an oversight on my part. To tell you what happened: I thought the first paragraph of that post was the entire citation, and mistook the rest as just your personal opinion. What we can learn from this, other than that I need to learn how to read, is that less is often more. Of course I will gladly userfy the article, and I am sure that I won't have to look away when you reintroduce it. — Sebastian 05:53, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan. Please leave me a link so I know where it's at and can add it to the list I keep so i don't forget about it. Thanks again Sebastian. Truly your communicative and open approach is inspiring. :) That Basket of Puppies character must be having an influence around here! ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:58, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm thinking of User:ChildofMidnight/Surplus Record Machinery & Equipment Directory. But I just realize we have a little problem. There are two redirect pages, which, according to process, should get speedily deleted: Thomas P. Scanlan and Surplus Record. I think I'll just do that, although it's somewhat silly. Remember to put them back, too. Thanks for your kind words! — Sebastian 06:07, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
I improved it some and recreated. We'll see what happens. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:43, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"In space, no one can hear you scream..."

Freeze-dried bacon bars for astronauts (from the Smithsonian, Washington, D.C., USA)

Geoff Who, me? 20:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm speechless. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
CoM, this guy came out of nowhere yesterday and now has a stunning 32 points on the table for the cup. This guy is going to be a really tough opponent. ;)--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 21:42, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
And since Drmies refuses to cook Calf's Liver with Bacon, I'm trying to nerve myself up to cook it myself so I can create and post a pic he can use for his article. Geoff Who, me? 23:56, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Geoff, I admire you immensely. I'm trying to be a strong man, but I find the mere thought of that dish revolting, and my wife would never allow me to cook it. Good for you! Enjoy! Drmies (talk) 18:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Don't do it Geoff. It's not worth it! ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I see no harm. The competition is heating up after all. It just means that the rest of us need to get the points jamming to keep up. ;)--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 00:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
He's on 36 points now by the way. He's on FIRE!--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 00:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
A long way still to go in the race
Just out of curiousity, are you going to report all your contributions at the very last minute to surprise everyone from behind?--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 00:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
No, I'll try to do them as I go along. I don't think I've done any yet. It should perhaps be noted that Drmies has several sandboxes full of bacon... ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Mmmm. Drmies's Sandboxes. Tasty. Hey, would you like to be the official reporter for the event. You know, write a weekly report on how the content is coming along, how the points are stacking up, that sort of thing?--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 00:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
The advantage of getting reports in early is that nobody is able to start/extend upload the same content before you and get the points instead.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 00:49, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Everyone will be pleased to know that I never win anything, so fear not! Geoff Who, me? 01:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Maybe we can rotate the reports, whoever is leading gets to answer a set of questions on their progress and the progress of the event? I hesitate to be in charge of anything and my sense of humor is very rarely appreciated. But we can discuss it further. And Geoff would be a fabulous commentator and I'm happy to support him taking on that role! ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:05, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Remember the Bacon!
I agree. I've asked him. I might also prepare some questions for him later.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 04:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps a short set of questions for whoever the leader is that can be asked Monday's or even every other Monday. "as the current leader of the race for the Bacon WikiCup, can you give us an update on how the contest is going so far?" etc. Just an idea. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Done on his talk page.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 05:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
If I don't have to eat everything I find (or fix), I'm good for it (urrp! - pardon me!) Now, back to chasing that calf so I can start on cooking Calf Liver and Bacon... Geoff Who, me? 15:57, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of screaming, so far, the only suitably licensed photo I have found for 'fakon' is this much too busy photo which includes a couple of Morningstar Veggie Bacon Strips. (Some of the non-free photos are frightening.) I sure hate to think I might have to buy some just to photograph it, so I guess I'll wait to see if any vegans are attracted to a bacon-themed contest. Somehow, the prospect seems unlikely. Geoff Who, me? 19:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I kind of like that photo actually. Gives some interesting context both culinary and sociocultural. I'm not sure if it will look too small to make out the details, but I think it would be okay. Better than nothing anyway. I reiterate my opposition to your preparing a feast of bacon and liver, and I also oppose the buying, making and eating of fakon. Some endeavors are just too extreme and dangerous to be taken on so lightly. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:39, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, OK. I cropped it so the "fakon" stands out a bit more. I'll have to take your advice about the liver and bacon - the calf runs like crazy everytime I get near it. I suppose it's the axe or something. Geoff Who, me? 21:07, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I like the original one too. Can you upload it also? It's a good illustration of a vegetarian breakfast and is interesting. It could be croppeda little up to the edge of the bananas and the m in Times if you want to go all out. :) I created a fakon article, but forgot to do it in userspace... Oops. It's LIVE! Unless someone deletes it... ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:30, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Go here for the archived full version, if that helps. Geoff Who, me? 23:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


I assume you were trying to tweak for clarity. Thanks for that. However you introduced inaccuracies. I've corrected them. LadyofShalott 18:53, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Gulp. Uh oh. Sorry about that. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Ah, I see. I was confused where it said "where her own kind live (both as prison and sanctuary) because of the telepathy that threatened to drive her insane." I thought that meant that she was living with other telepathics. But I see that the Enclave is a place where other Mages live (her own kind) and she moved away to hide among humans? There are a few bits in there that still seem a bit confusing to me as someone unfamiliar with the book. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:58, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
That's right. Clearer now? What is still confusing? If I can make it better I will. LadyofShalott 19:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
You probably saw I trimmed the bit about the world ending in an unexpected way. I couldn't find any explanation and it didn't seem like an appropriate cliff hanger, though enticing... If it's important and worth noting I think some explanation is needed. BUt if it is a spoiler I'm fine with leaving it out.
I also had trouble with some of the terminology used. Is the term neomage a neologism? I think some explanation of what that means would be helpful. Also, is the world in the book Earth? A planet like earth? There are humans, but I couldn't quite tell for sure who was who and where they were and what they were up to. :) The telepathic bit noting that other mages aren't telepathic and that everyone would kill her if they knew part seems like it could be rewritten or broken up a bit some how. It's kind of lumpy and confusing. Maybe chronological? And then I guess part of my trouble with that part goes back to the context and background issue of where this is taking place, what the Enclave is, what their relation to humans is, and also what seraphs are, but I see that's linked so maybe it doesn't need to be explained.
I'm trying to figure out the demographics and geography a bit, :) maybe a sentence or two of background would help? Or does that give away too much? I don't work much on this kind of plot summary or on fiction articles much, so that may be why I'm having difficulty. And I don't know what a stone mage is.
I hope you don't feel that I'm being critical. It sounds like a very intersting book. I meant to read Clan of the Cave Bear (which I think is the same fantasy genre?) a while back, but never got around to it. So... I made this part small because Clan of the Cave Bear is described as historical fiction. SO I obviously don't have any idea what I'm talking about. I thought it was fantasy, but of course I did say I hadn't read the book. the closest I get is magical realism. Oh I did read something by that famous sci-fi woman writer whose name I can't think of at the moment, but that's not really fantasy either, I don't think. The Black Cauldron was one of my favorites as youngster, what genre is that? Arthurian legend or medieval fantasy or something I guess. What other books are in the neo mage series? Are they by this author or different authors? ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:14, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm surprised there is no article on jewelry making or jewelry makers. Isn't that a pretty notable profession and craft? I guess it's just covered in the jewelry article? ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:19, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh wait, there is one. Off to do redirects... It needs expansion and photos. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:20, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
(ec) No, these sound like reasonable questions. I think I have just taken care of end not being quite as expected bit - see what you think about the line I just added to the lead. It is earth, in the not-too distant future. I'll add something to clarify that. There are currently three books in the series, all by FH: Seraphs is the second, and the infobox reflects that fact; Host is the third. Giving away too much... I think the general consensus is we aren't really supposed to worry about that. :) Of course, I haven't told the ending of the book, which does not really fit our guidelines. If you ever feel like reading it, I do recommend it. LadyofShalott 19:25, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Sorry about the ECs. :) I was trying not to edit the article itself since I figured you would be doing stuff there. I don't know what the MOS is on infoboxes and including that content in the text (I was reverted including height and weight of a football player in the article body...), but I think it's okay and a good idea to duplicate the information. Since there isn't, yet, an article on the series it would be nice to mention some information on the series, like how many books there are in it. The other way to go would be to merge this article into one on the whole series and then start adding info about the other books in it...
I am also still hoping for a sentence or two on the demographics and geography (the layout so to speak). I'm not sure if you're doing that now... I'll go have a look. :) Are you into the vampire phenomenon: True Blood, the movie that's out and all? Is it worth noting where the name "bloodring" comes from? Also, I hate to nitpick, but some citations to reviews and such would be good... ;) ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That looks a lot better to me. I think an article on the series is the way to go. If it becomes unwieldy, articles on the books can always be broken out. An article on the Romantic Times would also be interesting. Despite the claims that "everything has been covered", I'm always overwhelmed by how much there is to work on. Thanks for letting me "help" with the article. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:34, 8 December 2009 (UTC) A link for mage to Magician (paranormal) (a practitioner of paranormal magic) or Magician (fantasy) (a practitioner of magic as portrayed in works of fiction) would be good. A short description of her powers might be good too. I know it's alluded to later with the stone mage mention. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm... I'll have to look at those magician links and see which is more appropriate. I'm amazed that Romantic Times is a redlink - it should definitely get "blued". This will take some time to get into shape, but I think your comments and questions are helping - thanks. Oh, and to your earlier sideline question, yes I enjoy vampire (and various related sorts of characters) fiction. Actually, I was introduced to Faith Hunter's work when Kim Harrison introduced her on her yahoo group just before Bloodring came out. I've only watched one episode of True Blood, but I've read all of Charlaine Harris's books upon which the tv series is based. LadyofShalott 20:45, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Incidentally, Faith's newer series is about a skinwalker who hunts vampires. LadyofShalott 20:53, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

New Mail

You have new mail at user talk:morning277 reference Ricky Dobbs. Morning277 (talk) 01:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Re: Interview comment at User talk:Glane23

I was thinking about creating a seperate space for interviews but because we've only had one interview so far, I've just added it to the bottom User:Sky Attacker/Bacon WikiCup 2010. Do you think it would be good to put all the interviews on the Bacon Challenge page? I just think, by the end, we would have enough to have a single page or two for the interviews by themselves. Your thoughts?--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 04:06, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Where it is now looks good. I think putting a link to it each time there is new one from the bacon challenge talk page is fine. I made a section and put a link there already for this one. Seems cool. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:03, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Signpost: 7 December 2009

Read this Signpost in full · Single-page · Unsubscribe · EdwardsBot (talk) 05:06, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


Check this out. Drmies (talk) 03:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Silly. Reminds me of the whole "foam" fad. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:00, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Danish Bacon

Have you or anyone else started Danish Bacon? I got some from the shop last week and cooked it. I took a photo while it was cooking. It could be used in the article.

Danish bacon cooking

.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 21:29, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

  •  Done Thanks! Drmies (talk) 21:42, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

check this out--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 22:08, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Thanks for the redirect, Child! Drmies (talk) 00:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Good job and a question

Two things. Number 1, good job with that article (you now have your first 5 points on the table). Secondly, I notice people are automatically uploading articles to the mainspace. Are we still having a grand debut next year?--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 01:49, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I just messed up. There should still be enough grease March 1 to clog Wikipedia's servers. It's unclear whether veggie bacon is bacon anyway. :) Don't worry. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:01, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Hmm. In regards to creating bacon articles I wonder...--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 02:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
We are still having a grand debut, but some users would not like to have their pages sitting in their sandboxes for months to come, as by then someone else may create the article, and perhaps other problems I cannot think of (see User_talk:ChildofMidnight/Bacon_Challenge_2010#Bad_idea for discussion). Thanks, ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 02:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
That's why I did it for Zeeuws spek - look what happened to The Lady? I have held the photos, but they are posted to Commons, per my usual practice, in addition to the Bacon WikiCup page, and anyway, those are intended for contestants to use for their articles or to illustrate existing articles. Geoff Who, me? 13:15, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Since you don't have a U.S. politician topic ban.....

Maybe (or maybe not) you might like to create an article on this. Grundle2600 (talk) 22:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It seems interesting. I'm not sure if it's article worthy. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:22, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
OK. Thanks for responding. Grundle2600 (talk) 16:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


Ref: Smultring

Hi TorSch. I saw your edit comment that Smultring are not doughnuts and I was wondering what you meant by that. If you can reply on my page it makes it easier for me not to miss it, but I will try to watch here. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:47, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, being a Norwegian I am well used to the Smultring. And as a current visitor in Kentucky, I'm also got used to the American Donuts. Though I should not deny the two are related, it is simply NOT the same thing. But for reasons of convenience we translate the smultring into donuts because they have at least some things in common. Did you ever taste a Norwegian smultring? Or - did you ever taste the latin-American link between the two, the Churro? The taste of the smultring is in the dough, and in the lard it's cooked in, while I find the donut to taste of the frosting or glace they are covered in.
But mostly, my comment was made because in your wikipedia the two have got separate articles, which makes it easy for me to pick the interwiki connector. Just like a car is a car, a Ferrari is a Ferrari. --TorSch (talk) 18:53, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

sega Dreamcast

Hi there. The Sega Dreamcast picture is currently a valued picture candidate. Can you please go there and cast yur vote ASAP? Secret Saturdays (talk to me) 01:17, 11 December 2009 (UTC)



Here's a pic for the article you have trouble deciding what to do with. -SpacemanSpiff 03:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

User:Sky Attacker/Broadbent's

Would you be happy to work with me on this one? You must know how notable they are, it is surprising the apparent lack of coverage that they have for award-winning producers of fine country meats. I went through the first ten pages or so of a Google search but I had a hard time finding anything good. Do you have good access to newspapers or something that could be used to cite their awards? Cheers.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Look at the talk page; I'll put some links up there. Drmies (talk) 19:02, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Didn't catch those links in my search - strange. I was almost going to give up altogether with these guys but I knew they deserved an article, as notable as they are. Cheers.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 23:15, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
I'll try to help out when I have some time. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

yak bak

You have a message from the Lady at User_talk:Drmies#Thanks. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Two challenges at one time (bacon and doughnuts) are enough for me. Of course there are obvious synergies with chocolate. On the other hand, I'm not sure a cabal or contest is needed for chocolate, as it's already widely popular. LoS should have gotten to the Vosges subject matter sooner... (see below). Is chocolate as esoteric and scholarly as bacon and doughnuts? It seems fairly mainstream to me, so perhaps a Chocolate Project would be the way to go? 19:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The dude was white!

Porque Madonna! Drmies (talk) 18:28, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This reminds of a Chappelle's Show bit... ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


I've gotten the article draft Here as far as I could take it with all the reference sources I could find. I've asked Karanacs talk to come take a look and leave me notes on the article's discussion page Here. I need your input/advise on where I need to make adjusments. Can you leave your notes Here to for me to follow. Tinkermen (talk) 18:48, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I left a message on my talk page hoping for more input. I learned alot this week for sure.TinkermenDec 19th


Have you tried a bacon-flavored chocolate bar before? Do they taste any good?--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 00:47, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I haven't tried it or chocolate covered bacon. But I think Drmies may have. The User:Sky Attacker/Vosges (chocolatier) article looks quite interesting. I would be interested in someone trying them and reporting on the various flavors. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Numbering of hooks

Oops, my bad, I see what is meant now. Hope you are doing well. No worries, Cirt (talk) 19:29, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

No problem Cirt. I feel bad that's it's a little bit confusing with all the sections, but I hope people are enjoying the "challenge". I'm sort of awed by the level of interest. I was going to make a section for hooks that are nommed before March 1, but you beat me to it. Thanks. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Oh no probs. Yea, it's been a lot of fun, I've learned a lot in the process of researching the three new articles I created so far. :P Cirt (talk) 20:07, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Those books give a whole new meaning to the phrase "light reading". ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:13, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Heh, indeed. Cirt (talk) 20:16, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


Yeah I'm pretty sure the post season counts, I think they all own the record. These sources:[12] [13] [14] all say 23, Harridges Air Force bio says 22, but that could be a mistake. Hope this helps.--Yankees10 21:17, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Everett Phipps Babcock

Ambox warning pn.svg

A tag has been placed on Everett Phipps Babcock requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies. You may also wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles - see the Article Wizard.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 00:07, 13 December 2009 (UTC)