User talk:ChristensenMJ

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Hello, ChristensenMJ, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome! Eustress (talk) 19:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


BYU Hawaii spelling[edit]

The article for this entity is currently at Brigham Young University Hawaii, without a hyphen or an en-dash between "University" and "Hawaii". For this reason, the name should be spelled like this on the article page and at Church Educational System as well. If that's incorrect, then efforts should be made to change the article name of Brigham Young University Hawaii before the change is made in the text of articles. One way or the other it should be consistent throughout articles. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:40, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

FYI, BYUH is not hyphenated (see BYUH homepage) while BYU-I is hyphenated (see BYU-I homepage). Please keep the Wikipedia naming conventions in accordance with the official formatting. --Eustress (talk) 00:26, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Friendly nudge[edit]

Information.svg Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. Please don't forget to provide an edit summary for your edits. Thank you. —Eustress talk 16:59, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

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April 2009[edit]

Information.svg Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but your recent edit removed content from File talk:President Bush meets with First Presidency of LDS church May 2008.jpg. When removing text, please specify a reason in the edit summary and discuss edits that are likely to be controversial on the article's talk page. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the text has been restored, as you can see from the page history. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia, and if you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Eugene Krabs (talk) 14:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Sustained vs ordained dates[edit]

Nice job on your ongoing correction of the ordination vs sustaining dates of the LDS Church apostles and other GAs. There's a lot of misunderstanding about the difference and the articles have not been good on establishing the different dates. When I originally added the template boxes I think I just used the dates that were stated in the articles, but they were almost always the same date (the sustaining date). Thanks for doing that work. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:05, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

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CES Board Changes[edit]

Hello, As you are probably aware, Steven E. Snow has been released from the Presidency of the Seventy and will be appointed Church Historian and Recorder in October 2012. This means, I'm sure, that he has been relieved of his responsibilities as a member of the Church Board of Education. Since you seem to have inside information about the Board, I am wondering who has/will replace him on the Board. Please find out soon if you can, and post the changes on Church Educational System. Thanks in advance. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 06:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi! It's been a while since we had opportunty to check in! I hope all is well with you. Yes, Elder Snow's new assignment did relieve him of his service on the Boards of Trustees/Education. The Officers of the Board have not yet formally announced his replacement, but I will definitely update the information when it becomes effective. ChristensenMJ (talk) 15:34, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hartford Conneticut Temple[edit]

Don't know if you noticed, but on the talk page for the article List of temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I started a new topic discussing the Hartford Connecticut Temple. Someone had claimed that the earlier announcement date for that temple should be included on the template. It was my feeling that mentioning the earlier date in the article for that temple was sufficient, and that the earlier date was irrelevant as far as the template was concerned. I requested comment, but no one has answered that request, so I thought I'd ask you to comment on the issue. I look forward to your input. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 01:53, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi! You have been busy & doing a great job on the list of general authorities, area seventies, & temples. Thank you! As to the Hartford Connecticut Temple, I agree with you on the template listing. Having the history reflected in the article is sufficient for my feeling as well. I noticed a moment ago that the info in the article regarding the "recent" announcement is in bad shape - off badly on the date among other things. I will probably get to that tomorrow. Thanks for the question - that is my 2 cents worth! ChristensenMJ (talk) 14:19, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
a question for you......on the article for Thomas S. Monson, how do we change the text of the picture showing him greeting George W. Bush? It references Dieter F. Uchtdorf, but he is not in the picture. The person partially seen in the background is Brook Hales, secretary to the First Presidency. ChristensenMJ (talk) 14:19, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
yet another note - I agree with your change on the General Conference article about who presents the sustaining - had the same thought today, but ran out of time to update. ChristensenMJ (talk) 14:19, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
I don't know how to change the caption on the photo. That will have to be left up to someone with much more WP experience than I have. Glad to see that you agree with the General Conference change. Hopefully my edit made it much more clear. Btw, in future, when I post a message on someone's talk page, I don't habitually check the same user page for an answer. Rather, I leave a request for them to respond on my talk page. It was only on a hunch that I checked your talk page today. So, in the future, if you have a response to my questions or additional questions to ask me, I'd appreciate it if you would post those on my talk page. That would be a lot more convenient for me. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 00:10, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

General Authority Assignments[edit]

Thanks for updating Elder Zivic's assignment. However, I looked on and failed to find any mention there of his assignment. I see two other seventies (though I can't remember who) that are listed as Assistant Executive Directors of the Temple Department, but under Zivic's biography, that assignment is not listed. Is it possible that this was a previous assignment that he has now been released from? As soon as has an updated list of assignments, I guess we'll know for sure. Please respond on my talk page, as I don't habitually check other users' talk page for a response. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 00:55, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

On the list we have, I see Elder Choi, Elder Zivic, and Elder Gibbons listed as Assistant Executive Directors of the Temple Department. So now my question is, who is the 4th person you spoke of? Also, on the list that you are taking this information from, does it contain any other assignments of general authorities that we can put on that page? Again, please respond on my talk page. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 14:15, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
It seems you forgot to respond to the second question of my last post, so I'll ask it again: On the list that you got the information from about the Temple Department Assistant Executive Directors, does it list any other assignments for seventies that we don't have on the WP list? Any additional information you can contribute would be appreciated. Again, please respond on my talk page. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 22:53, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
There are other changes, but we'll have to wait until they're officially announced? I really wish you hadn't said that. My curiosity is piqued. I won't ask what these changes are, much as I want to. You're probably not at liberty to say. One question I can ask: Where are you getting all this information? Do you by any chance have access to the CDOL? What Church position do you hold that allows you to be privy to this information? These are questions I feel I can ask. In the meantime, for the sake of my sanity, any additional information you feel you can give me, even if we have to wait until it's officially announced to list it here, would be appreciated. If you can tell me anything, I promise that I won't make it public. However, if you can't give me any more details until it's official, I understand completely. I am copying my comments here to my talk page, where I hope you will respond to this post as you have the past ones. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 23:40, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Reworded and copied from Talk: List of general authorities of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: I notice that you claim that Elder Ringwood, formerly the First Counselor in the Asia North Area, is now the President, replacing Presiding Bishop Stevenson, and that Elder Yamashita, formerly unassigned, is the new First Counselor. I will be the first to admit that when it comes to inside information about general authorities, you have always been right. But I think that since changes in Area Presidencies have always been sourced in the past that this change needs to be sourced as well. I will leave it up to you to provide that source at your convenience. Exciting news! Do you have any insight as to who will replace Bishop Causse as First Counselor in the Europe Area? You can respond to this message either on my talk page, or the talk page listed above. Thanks for all your great work! --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 08:31, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

What is your rationale for chainging the Central America Area Second Counselor from Robert C. Gay to Kevin R. Duncan? The latest official source (the August Ensign lists Gay as the Second Counselor. Again, the issue is verifiability. And your source remains uncited. Please respond on the talk page for List of general authorities of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 01:23, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi - --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable - we got caught in between edits here, so I'll type it again. I recognize the August Ensign lists the same information that the Church News gave back in May or so when the assignments were announced. A change was subsequently made in that assignment, so if you wish to wait until the Church may make a future annoucement in the Church News or other publication before making the change to Elder Duncan, that is fine. Thanks! ChristensenMJ (talk) 01:35, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Boise Idaho Temple: I goofed![edit]

I am posting this topic to invite you to comment on an issue I raised at Talk: List of temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints about the Boise Idaho temple. I goofed, and no one has been kind enough to fix my mistake, and I don't know how to fix it myself. It's been posted for a while, but so far, I am the only one who seems to care about this problem getting resolved. Please help me if you can. Thanks. Post any comments you have on this issue on that page. Thanks again. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 00:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Emeritus General Authorities[edit]

In attempting to add the general authorities that received emeritus status to the emeritus section of the page, I goofed somewhere and got an error that I can't fix on my own. Would you take a look at it and help me fix it if possible? Post any reply to the appropriate talk page. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 21:07, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. Now all we need to do is find an updated list of general authority assignments. Please let me know if there is ever anything I can do to return the favor. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 23:48, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

We meet again[edit]

First Robert C. Gay, now Henry J. Eyring. Best I can see, I appreciate your good work. No interest in "getting the red out" by setting up an (as simple or as elaborate as you wish) user page? Just click that ChristensenMJ and you're off, as I imagine you may know. Anyway, my pref. All best. Swliv (talk) 18:19, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (LDS Church)[edit]

Hi, I hate to bother you, but do you have any references to prove this body is notable? This article has many serious issues, such as too many primary sources. When you took out the text and citations that I had added, you made the article much worse: it went back to lacking context, it was completely unreferenced, it had BLP issues, and the external links and single article reference were not inline. You see, without citations, there are many issues:

  1. We have no idea how to find the information again.
  2. We don't know if anything was plagiarized or in violation of copyright.
  3. The casual reader lacks any context for the data and theories in the article -- it was just a pretty bunch of factoids.
  4. We have no idea if the subject is notable - this is, objectively important.
  5. We don't know if the sources are reliable, and if so, independent and significantly covers the topic.

Please fix the issues tagged in the article, or please rebut my arguments with at least three of your own. If you need assistance, please contact me. Bearian (talk) 21:05, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the comments. I haven't done any research to provide any specific citations that would speak to the your question of whether this group is notable or not. It is one of the governing bodies of the LDS Church, which includes 14+ million members, and of course the recent Republican nominee for President of the U.S., Mitt Romney, along with a list of other notable people. I believe it would be hard pressed case for someone to try and desingate this as not being notable so as to qualify for article deletion. If there is a desire to retain the information you've included and draw the comparisons to the college of cardinals, I would suggest reviewing the area of the article that discusses succession in the presidency of the LDS Church and find a way to combine those - or at least put them in better proximity to one another. It's addressed in the area you've included, then several paragraphs later returns. It might be well to have those be more in sync. Thanks! ChristensenMJ (talk) 22:19, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Walter F. González[edit]

According to Changes to South America South Area Presidency to come, this change is not effective until January 6, 2013. Also, it has not yet been announced who will replace González in the Presidency. Accordingly, I have reverted your changes to González's article and have readded him to the current Presidency of the Seventy template. I suspect you might know who will replace González already, as you always seem to have inside information about these kinds of changes. But unless and until the change is official, it shouldn't be made. Sorry. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 00:58, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

No need to apologize! I appreciated the newsroom update that you included - I was only going by this link - - which says "has" been released. There are a ton of other changes that would need to be addressed and modified, given the known timing in January. ChristensenMJ (talk) 01:10, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I will rely upon you to make those other changes since I don't know what they would be. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 01:35, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

An interesting (but very minor) issue[edit]

See here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:15, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Ah, that is an interesting point you've asked about! Good question. Knowing that not only the book cover showed it that way, but also with the differences between Latter Day Saint vs. Latter-day Saints, I hadn't made any connection for something different. Also, thanks for the clarification you made the other day on the Robert S. Woods article - indicating how we don't update direct quotes. I just know - which I probably learned, thanks in large part to your tutoring efforts (which is a great thing)- how "church" is normally reflected overall, but also with the sensitivity others have expressed when people try to note on LDS-related articles about "the Church."
Yes, any material that is directly quoted can be thought of as an exception to the regular WP conventions. We don't change the quotes unless there's a need to do so for some reason, such as eliminating an unneeded sentence with a "..." or similar. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:40, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Great, that's helpful! I am still a rather staunch novice at much of this, so thank you!! ChristensenMJ (talk) 01:42, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
You're doing great work, keep it up! Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:34, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Ha ha - no problem! When JGStokes did it, he left me a note that said he kept getting like 200+ years of service for MK Jensen, so I sorted it out, but only from copying one of the others that works! I haven't actually looked much at the "formulas" myself! ChristensenMJ (talk) 21:04, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Eldred G. Smith may get there yet. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:40, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
For sure!!! :) ChristensenMJ (talk) 21:51, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Request for help @ General Authorities page.[edit]

I have requested help at Talk: List of general authorities of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Please help me and leave a response on that page if you can help. Thanks in advance. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 08:20, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


I am well aware of the MOS, but I don't think it's helpful to remove "president" from the Timeline articles, for the simple reason that many (most?) of the readers will not be LDS, and will not realise the significance of the person in question. In these terms there is a vast difference between someone who is an apostle or non-GA, and the president of the church to the organisation.--MacRùsgail (talk) 15:22, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for the thought. I understand the principle you are referencing. In most cases, perhaps all, we'd have to check, it typically has indicated some had passed away and as a result, the next person became president of the church. I think that gives them enough context as to the significance of who passed away. What are your thoughts? ChristensenMJ (talk) 16:38, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


Editors Barnstar.png The Editor's Barnstar
For displaying particularly fine decisions in general editing. Keep up the good work! —Eustress talk 03:54, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your kindness! We all just keep at it together, don't we! ChristensenMJ (talk) 03:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

BYU Facial Hair policy[edit]

You deleted my addition to the BYU Honor Code page. As the policy regarding facial hair in particular allows for exceptions this information needs to be included in the article. The University has laid out procedures students and faculty must adhere to in order to receive the proper exemption. By laying out these policies here students and interested observers are made familiar with the steps one needs to take in order to receive an exemption. It is not long enough to merit its own article. If you would prefer to move the new excerpt into the "Enforcement" section that is definitely open for discussion. Simply removing it, however, is an arbitrary and unwarranted decision on your part. Thank you. MacamemeandCheese (talk) 21:24, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the comment. If you remember what Wikipedia is, an enclyclopedia of sorts, this is still far too detailed for inclusion in an article. The exception was summarized in sufficient detail. The procedures of getting an ID picture and all that sort of detail would never be included in a encyclopedia article. You are stretching to indicate it's unwarranted and arbitrary - no more so than including it, so keep it neutral! If you feel strongly about the need to help others out, perhaps you can include a link or reference to reflect the procedures. For now, I will assume you have restored it and I will probably head back over and remove it again, for the reasons stated. ChristensenMJ (talk) 21:32, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
To reiterate, facial hair exceptions are an area of Brigham Young University's honor code which have special provisions unlike any other element of the honor code. This fact warrants better description within an encyclopedic article. Your assertion to the contrary is a subjective judgment with which I entirely disagree. In my view, there was not sufficient detail in the article as it was in regards to obtaining an exemption. Having the procedure simply laid out in the wikipedia entry is very useful for those wishing to understand how exemptions might be obtained. Moreover, the procedure as described is in fact part of the honor code itself. I disagree with your reasons stated and I will add the section back in if removed. As I mentioned before, you might move it to the Enforcement section if you believe it to be better suited to that section. As for the information itself, however, it is entirely factual. You also accuse the inclusion of lacking neutrality. You accuse me of stretching things to demonstrate they are "unwarranted and arbitrary," but my additions say no such thing. In fact, they neutrally lay out the basic procedure--within the Honor Code itself--to obtain a beard exemption. If you believe the policies are unwarranted and arbitrary" that is your opinion, but my description of them is factually neutral.MacamemeandCheese (talk) 21:53, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
An apparent continued misunderstanding exists of the purpose and intent of articles. 21:56, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

After reviewing the edit again, I think you're right. It is too unwieldy for the honor code policy section, as it basically consists of a bullet-point list. Since the procedure for facial hair exemptions pertains more to Enforcement, and since the Enforcement section contains paragraphs rather than a bullet point list, this seems a much more appropriate location. I also trimmed the word count from 222 to about 130, making it smaller in context of the overall encyclopedia entry. In this way, the information about the exemption is still available, but not in a way that distracts from the overall content. I hope this is a sufficient compromise, and thank you for your attentive eye.MacamemeandCheese (talk) 22:25, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

This does seem to work much better. There is some confusion in the above comments about "unwarranted and arbitrary" portions - this wasn't to indicate that the content (assertions or policy) were not presented in neutral fashion - it had been indicated the removal itself was "unwarranted and arbitrary" - that was the part that needed to stay neutral, avoiding direct implications against another editor. As you noted, particularly with the bullet-point list, this was not a good placement and it was far too detailed for the setting and context. That prompted the removal - as I have absolutely no bias, as asserted above, which led to the removal. There was never any attempt to dispute the facts of the policy, one with which I am very aware, as I am with many CES policies. Thank you for the word reduction as well, it reads much better and more concisely. ChristensenMJ (talk) 01:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Emma Smith[edit]

I see you have stated that the church in 1838 was called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is historically inaccurate. The use of 'The' wasn't added by the Church in Utah until years later - same with 'Latter-day'. In 1838 the name of the church was Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is why many of the smaller branches of the Latter Day Saint movement continued to use this form of the name without the hyphen. Of course the current edition of the LDS D&C has been edited to reflect the name as current spelled. Best, A Sniper (talk) 00:34, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the update. Have a great day! ChristensenMJ (talk) 02:17, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Edward Dube[edit]

Thankyou for your constructive helps on the editing of the article on Edward Dube.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:19, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate the kind sentiment. Thank you as well for all your efforts, including creating the article and bringing more substance to it. You've been working hard on the First Vision as well today, thank you!! ChristensenMJ (talk) 04:22, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

BYU Rankings[edit]

Do you have any reputable sources beyond BYU's self-reported data? Self-reported data is not suitable for rankings. I know for a fact that AAMC doesn't publish a "top senders to medical schools" ranking anymore. I'm going to delete the part regarding medical schools as their ranking was removed in the 2010-2011 rankings. Jakebarrington (talk) 18:05, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the question / comment. While I haven't gone back to the original source in each case on the rankings information BYU has shared, you'll note that the original table given groups the claims asserted by the original source. Although summarized, perhaps more than just purely self-reported, that provides opportunity for interested parties to pursue the original source as desired. Given a good-faith effort to display academic honesty & integrity on the main website of a large university, it seems reasonable & fair to note the assertions, providing the source & let any reader pursue it further. As to your assertion regarding the medical school issue, the article already noted that such rankings were taken from 2008-2009, the claimed fact that these rankings were discontinued several years later doesn't change the nature of the stated ranking. That doesn't create a compelling case for removal. That being the case, I will reinstate the article as it was showing. Thanks for your efforts to help keep Wikipedia strong. ChristensenMJ (talk) 05:16, 28 April 2013 (UTC)


The problem is that this [1] Church News article just says he was a mission president, and this [2] listing of his call does not say where he is going. I have added the later, but we will need both references.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, that second link is a good part of what we're after - it does make it a bit more complex when their bio is published prior to the assignments being announced. Thanks!! ChristensenMJ (talk) 22:09, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Hmm, then I found this case [3] where in 2010 Jorge Miguel Alvarado was called from Puerto RIco to preside over the mission in Puerto Rico. This might be more common than we think.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:23, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree that particularly as the church has grown and matured in some of these other areas of the world, there is not only not a "need" for North Americans to go and preside, but that these men are ready and able to serve in their own areas. That is one of the reasons I was reticent to start trying to provide too many examples, or exceptions, because it's hard to track any and all circumstances (let alone perhaps not all that helpful to the article). ChristensenMJ (talk) 22:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Good point, but of couse most non-north American Mission presidents are not exceptions. Akingbode A. Ojo will be a Nigerian serving as mission president in Nigeria, but he is not from within the mission (he is from Calabar, which is is a mission headquarters, but will be serving in Benin City). Pretty much all the new mission presidents in Brazil, and most of them in Mexico, are from the country, but even the new mission presidents in Reynosa and Ciudad Juarez are coming from outside those mission, while it appears both are coming from within the boundaries of the mission those cities are currently in (they are among the 58 new missions). One possible way to have Hinckley, Joseph and Gamiette as justified examples is that Hinckley came from a country with lots of missions, so having a national as mission president does not require calling someone from within the mission, Joseph came from a one-mission country so to have a national as mission president you generally have to call from within the country (I guess they could call a Haitian temporarily resident in the US or other places though), and Gamiette presided over a mission that covered 10 or more countries, so it is a really complexed example, especially since technically Guadaloupe is part of France so if Gamiette had been sent as mission president to Paris he would be a national serving as mission president. The other factor that makes Gamiette slightly different is that while he was a native of Guadaloupe, his wife is a native of mainland France, whereas Joseph's wife is a native of Haiti.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:39, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Yep, agreed, the areas of growth and maturity referred to certainly don't include places like Mexico and Brazil, where the church has been 1) long established and 2) is of a size that allows for such events - not much different than a man from Florida being called to preside in Oregon. Isn't life great? For me at least, sometimes the more I take something that seems pretty straightforward and dig into it, I find it's not near as simple as it seemed!! And I always prefer simple! :) ChristensenMJ (talk) 22:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


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GA Page.[edit]

Hello. I got the note you left for me on the General Authorities talk page. My thanks for your thanks. I was wondering if you could help me with something. Shortly after merging the subpage with the GA page, I got a note on my talk page from a bot citing supposed errors with my edit. But I could not make sense of what the message was talking about. If you could check it out on my talk page and help me resolve the issues mentioned, I'd appreciate it. Once you have done so, please leave me a message either on the GA talk page or on my talk page as I don't habitually check other users' talk pages. Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to give me. ––Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 06:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi! Hope you are well!? I will try and have a look when I can. I actually have received some similar messages on my talk page for other edits the past couple of months, but when I go back and look I can't see anything either, so we'll see what we can find on yours!! ChristensenMJ (talk) 19:57, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Hey, it's me again. I was just at the General Authorities page and noticed (much to my frustration) that the ability to sort the tables by age, years served, name, etc. has disappeared. Do you know what happened and/or how to restore that feature? Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to give me on this. Please respond on the GA talk page. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 06:39, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi - --Jgstokes - I actually saw your comment on the GA page a bit ago and went and tried it, it still appeared for me and worked just fine, so I am not sure what's causing your experience. ChristensenMJ (talk) 06:42, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Nice catch: As of date for Area Seventies[edit]

Hello. I wanted to drop a line and thank you for noticing I failed to update the date on the Area Seventies page even though I had updated the information. Not sure how I missed that, but grateful you caught it. Thanks for all your great work! --Jgstokes (talk) 07:09, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi! That's very kind of you, but good job on all your efforts! Thanks so much, Jgstokes!! ChristensenMJ (talk) 17:27, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

City Creek Center[edit]

FYI: [4]. I've pointed him to the talk page, where I see you've started a discussion. If he continues to make the edits without attempting to discuss or justify his edits, it will become obvious that he's just trolling. Good Ol’factory (talk) 18:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Sounds great. Thanks for your help. I started to add something to the user's talk page over the weekend, but got cut short on time. It also helps having another editor providing some counsel and observation. ChristensenMJ (talk) 19:02, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

BYU Honor Code Page[edit]

Re: The BYU Honor Code page... The standards section presents value based POVs. For example, words that describe certain lifestyles and behaviors as "appropriate", "indecent", "inappropriate", and "clean" are absolutely opinions and personal values that are not shared by everyone. This section would be fine if it were quoted verbatim from the honor code. However, it's not. The language could be made more neutral by saying "Living what the LDS church considers to be a chaste and virtuous life" for example. Now, the Conflict with Official Doctrine section... There are no opinions there. There is only the fact (from the honor code) that former LDS students cannot practice their new religion and still receive an endorsement, and only the fact (from official LDS scripture) that the LDS church claims the privilege of allowing everyone to worship however they may. There are no opinions there. You are free to continue reverting edits that aim to make the language more neutral and that aim to present controversial facts (but still facts) that are of important note, but I will continue to revert you and I will report you. Fix and improve the article if you don't like it. Don't just revert back to how you want it to be. It's not yours. It's not the LDS church's. It's everyone's and it needs to be neutral and present all sides. -PonderosaPineapple

Huh... You seem to patrol a lot of LDS-themed pages. Yet "I" have an agenda, or as you put it on the talk page, an axe to grind.

Seems like you have very large grounds to keep indeed. I'm in this for the long haul. Revert how you will, but I will continue to make sure the hypocritical, LDS-sourced facts get out there occasionally. Your friend, -PonderosaPineapple

P.S. Doesn't it concern you that the LDS church violates its own beliefs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:55, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Revert of my Hamilton New Zealand Temple edit[edit]

You surely know more than I do of LDS, so I bow to your revert comment that "most positions shown not directly related to temple" wrt Douglas J. Martin. However some positions Martin held were in that temple & it seems to me that part can be retained as Martin seems to have been a pioneer in the NZ LDS church & certainly of the Hamilton New Zealand Temple. What do you think? --DadaNeem (talk) 05:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi, DadaNeem! Thanks for the message. Of the assignments listed in the good faith sentence added, only the sealer is directly related to/associated with the temple itself. Of course, as noted, he was also the president. My thought is that this is really about notability, specifically to the temple, given the article's focus. For instance, he'd be one of many who have served as sealers over the years. Even as the president, where they typically serve for 3 years, he would be just one of many over the 55+ years the temple has been in operation. Although he was among the stalwart of NZ LDS Church leaders, to single him out in an article about the temple, lacks the notability for the addition. And just for full disclosure so it doesn't seem I am insensitive to his valuable contributions over the years, even though I have never been to NZ, I was actually married by Douglas J. Martin!! What are your thoughts? ChristensenMJ (talk) 05:50, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi ChristensenMJ. You're indeed more qualified than I thought to write on Douglas J. Martin!! My intent when writing of his relation to the Hamilton Temple was to make the articles mutually informative. Martin seems to have been a notable in the non-US LDS world so his relation to the Hamilton Temple, even tho humbler than his roles in the outside LDS world, even briefly alluded to, could inform a casual reader. A possible means: == Notables (or Associates) of the Temple == *[[Douglas J. Martin]], the first New Zealand resident to become a general authority of the LDS Church, was a stalwart of the Hamilton Temple from its opening in 1958.

Those interested in learning more could see then see details in Douglas J. Martin.--DadaNeem (talk) 06:26, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

The current article on Douglas J. Martin shows his notability was almost exclusively due to LDS Church involvement, including being the first NZ resident appointed as a church general authority. Again, as it relates to the temple article itself, there isn't anything particularly "noteworthy" in his contributions to the temple than there would be for many, many others who served in similar leadership capacities within the church. I would be more inclined to not include something specific to, or about, him. ChristensenMJ (talk) 06:39, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Michael Reed edits[edit]

I applaud your efforts to amicably explain to Michael Reed the reasons behind the objections that are being made. It seems that, short of providing their own defense of his edits, some users have instead chosen to nitpick about the way I phrase my objections. I hope you understand where I am coming from on this issue. I have asked Reed at least twice to provide one source, just one, that would bear out the claims of his book. So far, he has not chosen to do so. That is why my objections remain. I felt perhaps that you might be able to tell me if I am being unreasonable in my requests for an independent source that bears out what his book claims. I trust your judgment. If you could respond either on my talk page or on the article talk page itself, that would be much appreciated. Thanks for helping me in this matter. --Jgstokes (talk) 08:52, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Jgstokes! Yes, it seems there is - or at least was in the beginning - too much of users taking it personally and feeling that censoring and fabricating of rules was taking place. Based on responses, I still don't think it's understood. (Although slightly different in motivation behind the edits, I actually had a similar experience start at about the same time on the BYU Honor Code article.) I do understand where you are coming from. My guess is that there likely wouldn't be a statement per se from one of the brethren, other than some of those addressing the focus on the living Christ. I personally don't think the proposed edit adds to the value of the article, sourced or not, so it's hard for me to get too ramped up about it. I also think, as you may have read, that even if it's added, there needs to be improved npov writing. I don't see that inclusion of who may or may not have struggled with anti-Catholic feelings has any value, relevance or significance. Then with the single-focus that Reed and those he's recruited to help in the matter have it's hard to see where a reasonable discussion can take place. So, I don't know that I am really answering your question - if it were me, I probably wouldn't bear out a strong or unflexible stance, just because it's not going to go anywhere overall. Thanks for your continuing efforts! ChristensenMJ (talk) 22:15, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi, Jgstokes. I thought I would note something here in our conversation. I think what is being said on the Culture talk page about the Reed book overstates my position. As I noted above, I don't anticipate there would be a statement by any church authorities. I don't think it adds much to article and my primary issue was conflict of interest and self promotion, sockpuppet behavior, etc. - not any demand for something. I noted above that I wouldn't bear out a strong of unflexible stance because it's not going anywhere anyway. I have replied here in a good faith effort not to have to contradict your thoughts right on the talk page, to try and give you that opportunity to amend as needed. Thanks for all you do! ChristensenMJ (talk) 01:55, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
I kind of "changed my mind" and went ahead and added a brief note to the article's talk page. ChristensenMJ (talk) 02:58, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

I wanted to thank you for your defense of me. While our viewpoints may differ on the Michael Reed edits, I greatly appreciate you sticking up for me. I stepped away from the conversation for a few days because I had other things to do than argue with Michael Reed. My latest stated opinion on the matter has been overlooked: that is, if the consensus (through straw poll) votes to include the material, I will stand by that consensus. I was shocked at Reed's request that I be blocked and was gratified that you put your two cents in for me. Thanks again, good friend. Now it seems that the material has been included in the article (after a fashion) and I have no objection to the way it currently appears. But I will not mention that on that particular talk page. Reed would only misconstrue and twist my words and request again that I be blocked. If you could reemphasis my latest stance on the issue, I'd appreciate it. Reed will likely take it better from you than he would from me. Thanks again! --Jgstokes (talk) 03:20, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

No problem at all. I was disappointed in the approach and words, which I believe still come largely from a lack of experience with WP. I make no claim to be all that experienced or have many of the answers, but this still primarily remains a single purpose account/focus by one user, or several users. I agree that there isn't any point to engage in the ongoing discussion or argument about it. With the information having been generally included now, as you noted, I don't anticipate anymore interaction on the page. ChristensenMJ (talk) 04:11, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Thomas S. Monson lawsuit[edit]

I am once again in need of your advice. In regards to the Thomas S. Monson lawsuit, the user that is pushing for the lawsuit to be mentioned in this article is disregarding cited sources and stooping to personal attacks. I thought of writing a reply to him but decided against it. It would only serve to rile him further. Since I am the one under attack here, I would ask for your help with this matter. I think if another user could substantiate my arguments while defending me, it might take the wind out of this user's sails. As it its, I feel all I can do for the moment is to step away from the subject for a time. I have put in my two cents. Now I need to leave it up to other editors to defend me and agree with me. I will still keep an eye on the discussion, but I feel that anything else I say would serve to inflame this user, and that's the last thing I want. Your help is greatly appreciated. If you could respond to this on my user talk page or the talk page for the Monson article, as I don't habitually check other users' talk pages, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 03:40, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Jgstokes. Thanks for the message. I actually agree with your thought to just step away. You've had a chance to express your view, as I have also done. A single user pushing for inclusion isn't going to have a great impact when it seems the community is in favor of not including. I think there is wisdom in the saying "never reason with a drunk" - trying to convince some when there are clearly differing views doesn't often go too far. For now, I would just let it go and if there is a time a response is needed, as we keep it more "fact based" and address issues, rather than opinions or things that are pointed toward personal issues, it can help. ChristensenMJ (talk) 17:35, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
@Jgstokes: I agree with ChristensenMJ here. Sometimes it's better to just not respond and let an issue die on its own. If there's a serious attempt to include the material or new rational arguments presented, that can be responded to, but right now it seems like the talk page is being used more for soap boxing than actual reasons to include the material, and that is best left ignored in my opinion. ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

CDOL and New General Authority Assignments[edit]

Hello. I hope things are going well for you. I have taken the liberty of creating a subpage for changes that will be effective in August 2014. It is located here. So I was looking through the list after making all the announced changes and seeing if I could find assignments for the "unassigned" brethren. So I looked at their bios on And it would appear that the Assistant Executive Directors of the Temple Department have changed, based on information available in the bios. I was wondering if you could confirm this information based on your access to the CDOL. Plus, if there are any assignments listed there that we don't have on the subpage, we can input them there as well. Any information you can provide would be helpful. Thanks for your cooperation and assistance. Best wishes! --Jgstokes (talk) 20:21, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Zwick's assignment as Mission President[edit]

I wanted to drop a line and thank you for your quick work in getting W. Craig Zwick's new assignment up on the List of general authorities of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints page. I came onto Wikipedia to double check something based on other information I found in the Church News and stumbled across your edit. Sounds like he'll be busy for the next three years with that assignment. Also, I don't know if you got my last message, but I wondered if you could look that over and reply ASAP as I have been looking forward to your feedback. Thanks again. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:43, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Charles Edwin Shipp's edits on M. Russell Ballard[edit]

I am posting here to ask for your assistance with something. I have been working with Charles Edwin Shipp to try to substantiate the sentence he input from an introduction made at a recent CES fireside at which Elder Ballard spoke. It was said of him that much of his ministry has been focused on missionary work. I have been working with Charles to get him to substantiate this claim by citing some of Ballard's relevant General Conference addresses on the subject. He has done so, but I haven't had a chance to look them over or reply yet. I was wondering if you would be able and willing to work with us to get the content Charles desires into the Ballard article in a way that would not be a violation of Wikipedia policy. I hope you can help us. Thanks in advance. --Jgstokes (talk) 23:16, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I have some beginning experience in WP editing, approaching 5,000 edits in seven years. Recently, I had a minor comment from "Dr Jim" who has 100,000 edits! Anyway, reason I am mentioning this is I am an eager learner, my second hobby. I'm currently wondering if just one sentence is ample for the hallmark of his Apostleship(?) There are other aspects of his article/page that could be improved. I don't intend to do this for all twelve + three (general authorities) but I have been in Elder Ballard's home (Dad was his hometeacher) and in his office, (with his secretary, Sister Hyde) and may visit her this week, since we travel from L.A. this week to the annual Melaleuca Convention in SLC. There is a lot more I could say regarding WP editing and my views and will be taking your wise advise. -- Truly, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:50, 12 May 2014 (UTC) And Thanks In Advance (TIA).
Hello, Jgstokes and Charles Edwin Shipp. Thank you both for the efforts you make in strengthening Wikipedia, particularly in efforts toward the LDS Church. I realize the introduction at the recent CES Devotional, as well as the information listed for Ballard on, includes the sentence about his involvement in missionary work. It is true that having been an apostle for nearly 29 years, that he's had significant assignments related to missionary work. I probably just have a general aversion to trying to attribute specific areas of ministry and impact to those who are not the church's president. One could go through most church presidents and attribute some form of "theme" or "focus" toward their presiding stewardship, whether it be Benson's focus on the Book of Mormon or Monson's focus on rescuing. As the president sets the tone and direction of the church, I think we're hard pressed to try and get the other apostles out in front of the presiding officer. Apostles are involved certainly where some of their talents and skills are utilized best, but they are assigned there by the First Presidency. What about all of Ballard's focus on councils within the church, or significant time spent in CES assignments, or Public Affairs assignments, and the list goes on. Not only is it hard to nail down just a single area of focus or "much of his ministry" area and appropriately source it for WP purposes, I am just not sure it's a great idea. As you both know, these particular 15 men serve a unique role that is at the same time both very focused in its scope, but also by its nature ends up very broad. I don't think trying to isolate too much single purpose or focus serves that role as well as it should. I firmly agree with Charles Edwin Shipp that it would be wrong (let alone difficult) to try and do this for the 15 men spoken of, let alone all the other general authorities that serve in the church. So, that's my two cents at least for now as you go forward and consider how to best proceed. ChristensenMJ (talk) 04:52, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
I see your point, ChristensenMJ, and I thank you for it. My main object in inquiring of you as to how best to proceed was so as to not potentially hurt Charles Edwin Shipp's feelings by eliminating the sentence he felt was valid enough to include. I must say I much prefer your answer to the one that was given on the relevant article's talk page. So I guess the best course of action is to not try and establish a central focus of any given general authority's ministry unless and until they become the President of the Church. And even then it can sometimes be tricky pining down a central point of ministry focus when their ministry is not yet complete. Although I do agree that President Monson will likely be remembered for encouraging us to reach out and rescue, among so many other wonderful hallmarks. So I believe it will be best if we leave the sentence out, at least for now. I hope that won't offend you, Charles. In the meantime, Charles and Michael, I could use your help with something else. There are a number of new topics that have recently been started by me on the List of general authorities of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints talk page. I would appreciate it if you both could examine the conversations and weigh in with your opinions. There has been a particular disagreement between myself and another editor about the notability of members of the Second Quorum of the Seventy that has left me quite frustrated. In a nutshell, I felt it was unfair to have articles for some 2nd Quorum members but not all, and his response was that some are more notable than others. But when I have asked how that can be, instead of answering, he just responds with "Unless they're transferred to the First Quorum, their notability generally only lasts a few years." One question I have asked him which I wanted him to take time to consider was what makes Tad R. Callister more notable than his older brother Douglas L. Callister. I know that Tad has served in the Presidency of the Seventy and is now serving as Sunday School general president, which does make him notable, but his older brother served faithfully in the quorum for nine years and later as a temple president. In my mind, one Callister is no less notable than the other. There's an article for Robert S. Wood, who was in the Second Quorum for 10 years and was later a temple president, but not for L. Edward Brown or C. Max Caldwell. Brown was a temple president after his release, and Caldwell is known and respected as a sealer and Church History scholar even though he passed away 2 years ago. In my mind, there's not much difference in notability. And I think it's very unfair to have articles for some Second Quorum members but not all, which is why I created 10 new articles for the currently serving Second Quorum members that didn't have one. Anyways, the long and the short of it is, I need you both to weigh in on this and other issues so that it's not just me and this other editor trying to figure out what the "fair" thing to do about each issue is. So if you could go review those topics and respond at your leisure, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:47, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the response and associated thoughts, Jgstokes. I would not anticipate Charles will have his feelings hurt as everyone is acting in good faith. The only care that might be taken is to ensure we don't just use talk pages or articles to try and editorialize or have a subpage culture to many of the LDS-themed articles, for which people feel strong affinity and want to include additional "resources" or information. Next, I have glanced through the discussion you referenced on the talk page that has been taking place about the Second Quorum of the Seventy. If I could share a thought or two, one would be my own encouragement to retain a measured, balanced view and tone when inviting or responding to feedback. As the other user has indicated, this is not about him. He has indicated no concerns on his part about former general authorities having articles written about them, he's just indicating that others may have some concerns. Just be aware not to challenge an editor too directly as if he's got skin in the game, when that is not the case. You've both tried to address that & you've taken care to try and identify that you're not upset, but frustrated by what seems a different standard. I would also say that as you have done with the current members, feel free to create articles about others who have served. I think GoodOlfactory is just saying there may be some who challenge the notability. I think we have both seen and interacted with him as an editor enough to know the very balanced and fair view he brings to WP. I realize there are some/many who would say that just because someone is a general authority for a season does not automatically make them notable. I can appreciate that point of view, though I also don't see the harm in having the articles in existence. I sometimes think people are a bit quick on the trigger to nominate for deletion - but some of that also comes when essentially all/most of sources are from or about the LDS Church. A similar thing to consider or study is whether a comparable "level" of leadership in say the Catholic Church warrants an article for all who may be in those "callings" or positions. I don't know if it does or not and have never looked into it. The size of the Catholic Church by itself clearly creates an additional sense of notability when people rise to certain leadership roles, simply from the large number of adherents. A final side note I would share is that there is an article about L. Edward Brown. It's been in existence for perhaps as much as 7 years. I actually just made some edits there a couple days ago. A close friend of mine served under his direction in Korea when he was the mission president, so I knew that article existed (as the blue link in your comment reflects). So, I don't know that I am helping here at all - I would say feel free to create articles from Callister or Caldwell, but then be prepared to know that someone may challenge the notability if "all" they are known for is LDS Church service. Thanks so much! ChristensenMJ (talk) 08:19, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Isn't it interesting how Destiny directions can start and evolve! I saw that there was no TALK page for Elder Ballard's WP page/article and so started one with this idea. My thought then was that (1) the page was somewhat in need of improvement; (2) his emphasis is reaching out with modern tech/media (including youth taking a lead in social media) and what better media than Wikipedia? (3) Other thought, such as his leadership (under several prophets/presidents) in missionary work, first with young elders, then young sisters and seniors, and now member missionary work including his conf.talks. Further, I consider the TALK pages as an extension to the Article/pages, and a very interested WP reader will know to go there for further insights. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 13:00, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Kevin S. Hamilton nominated for deletion.[edit]

I am posting here to inform you, if you don't already know, that the article I started on Kevin S. Hamilton has been nominated for deletion. I have made my case for keeping the article on the relevant page, but was criticized for my comments. So while I will keep an eye on the way this develops, I don't intend to say more than I've already said. I wondered if you might be able to look over that AfD discussion and add your thoughts. If this page is deleted, I will have to question the notability of other articles written about current or former members of the Second Quorum of the Seventy. Anyways, just wanted to alert you to what was going on with that so you could comment if you choose. Perhaps you see this situation differently from me and have a better understanding of the policies and procedures involved. If you have any feedback on this comment, please leave it on my talk page, as I don't habitually check other users' talk pages for replies. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 01:23, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Terence M. Vinson and Gregory A. Schwitzer nominated for deletion.[edit]

Hey, I thought you'd like to know that the articles about Terence M. Vinson and Gregory A. Schwitzer have been nominated for deletion. I have made my case for keeping them and will leave it to the consensus to decide. If you'd care to comment, I'm sure your perspective, whatever it might be, would be welcome. Thanks for all your great work on Wikipedia! --Jgstokes (talk) 05:39, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

[The] Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints[edit]

Hello; because you commented in this discussion, I thought you might be interested in participating in this discussion. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:12, 30 June 2014 (UTC)


Hello. I just wanted to drop a note and ask if you knew whether or not the CDOL is back up and running? If so, does it list the executive directors and assistant executive directors of the various Church departments? If it does, that information could be included in the now up-to-date List of general authorities page. Thanks in advance for any feedback you can offer about this. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:14, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi, CDOL was never down, it was just my use of it, due to another short-term assignment. Hope all is well! ChristensenMJ (talk) 15:03, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

So the answers to my other questions are....? I asked, "Does [the CDOL] list the executive directors and assistant executive directors of the various Church departments? If it does, that information could be included in the now up-to-date List of general authorities page. Thanks in advance for any feedback you can offer about this." Thanks again for any feedback you are able/willing to provide. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:37, 5 August 2014 (UTC)


I have started a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Latter_Day_Saint_movement#Official_Auxiliary_Titles involving Auxiliary Titles.--- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 17:52, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

My recent absence from Wikipedia[edit]

Hello. You may have noticed that I have not been active on Wikipedia for about a month. Long story short, I got a job. I still intend to edit Wikipedia regularly, but getting into the groove of the job has left me unable to edit during the last month. So I wanted to drop a line and ask if there were any major changes on Wikipedia pages of interest that I needed to be aware of. You know my interests well enough by now to know what I mean by that. So if you could bring me up to speed, that would be great! Please leave any reply on my talk page as per my usual request. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:09, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Jgstokes! I hope things are going well for you. Congrats on the new job! Yes, I had noticed you not being around. About a week ago, I was going to send you an e-mail and see how things were going. I think things have been relatively quiet on the WP editing front during your time away. I can't think of any real major happenings to update you on! Thanks for checking in! ChristensenMJ (talk) 04:51, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

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ChristensenMJ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · edit filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Block message:

Autoblocked because your IP address was recently used by "Coolguymagilacudi". The reason given for Coolguymagilacudi's block is: "Clearly not here to contribute to the encyclopedia".

Accept reason:

I've unblocked as you're a long term good faith editor caught in a block intended for someone else. PhilKnight (talk) 23:00, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

edit warring[edit]

When you are asked to provide a better source you have three options: provide one,disengage, or take it to the talk page. Please note reverting is not one of the options. ThanksJohn from Idegon (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts, John from Idegon. The title you've given to this section isn't relevant, as no edit warring has taken place. Sourced content was added and you removed it, perhaps because you didn't like the source. That doesn't make the source invalid. It's not like this was a blog, personal opinion or original research shared. No better source was requested, but even if that's desired, there should be a request, perhaps on the talk page as you've noted, to find additional sources. Not just a revert where you think the math didn't work out as you thought it should. So, the options you have given may be valid if there isn't a presumption that it's one editor who feels the source isn't valid. Reverting was a perfectly appropriate option given the situation. Thanks so much for your efforts to further WP. ChristensenMJ (talk) 03:40, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
  • It is about time to take this to Admin's, your conduct is biased and John is correct. You can not only use the good parts of a story and omit the balance and cumulative perspective it provides, only parsing out what it is you want to believe. talk→ WPPilot  04:36, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your comment, WPPilot. Do you what feel is best, but I can assure you my conduct is not biased. I didn't parse out anything. You added content that is not supported in the reference it immediately precedes. It amounts to original research to add the information you did. It may be true that people were across the street doing this, my edit summary notes that. Just source it as you would expect others to do. That seems fair and reasonable. There is no sense of bias in that request. ChristensenMJ (talk) 04:42, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
If a "handful of people" is worthy of note..... ChristensenMJ (talk) 04:58, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

As I have tried to say, feel free write it appropriately, using npov, and to source it. The recent addition, trying to attribute this to a July 2005 KSL story that doesn't exist, is why I reverted it. That's what I have said all along. ChristensenMJ (talk) 04:56, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
If a "handful of people" is worthy of note to somehow balance the article..... WPPilot ChristensenMJ (talk) 04:58, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
  • What did you say? It is about notability, you have 4 locations that published something (in 2005) that was related to its opening and your dead set that it is a important building when it simply is not. It is only important in the minds of people that are told, and believe it is important. Wikipedia is not for mind reading members of the LDS to spread the word. If it has citations use them, if you can not find them, it will be deleted. 4 stories from 2005's open house does not cut the mustard here chief. talk→ WPPilot  05:05, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
I don't know what "what did you say?" is supposed to mean. It appears that a few of you got started on this whole string as a City of Newport Beach issue, that remains with the group of you. There isn't anything in here about spreading the word or mind reading. ChristensenMJ (talk) 05:23, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Gordon B Hinckley[edit]

You are being report for edit waring.Mormography (talk) 01:44, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the message Mormography, but you are quite incorrect. I am not engaging in edit warring. I am neutral on these issues, but you have consistently ignored what has been noted or requested, which is to take things to the talk page. And just because people may not comment within some predetermined timeframe, doesn't mean that consensus has been reached. There can't just be demands or insistence that things are done to the liking of a single user, particularly when multiple other editors are reverting and in good faith, trying to generate consensus.ChristensenMJ (talk) 01:50, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the message, but you are quite incorrect. You are not neutral on these issues and you have consistently ignored what has been noted and requested, which is to take things to the talk page. This is easily proven. Having the time to make edits, but not discuss is a lack of discussion. There can't just be demands or insistence that things are done against a single user editing in good faith when a cabal votes against them with out discussion or consensus.Mormography (talk) 02:05, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mormography (talkcontribs) 03:06, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

  • What is happening on that page is textbook edit warring. I will be protecting the page from editing in order to give you both a chance to discuss the matter on the talk page. If edit warring resumes after the protection expires, the next step is for one or both of you to be blocked. Beeblebrox (talk) 05:53, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for the message, Beeblebrox. I certainly understand the concern you have identified. I would just note that the user logging the complaints has been invited in each instance, across a couple of articles dealing with similar subject matter, to take things to the talk page and has chosen not to do so, has accused other good faith, long-time users/editors of being institutionally funded in support of a specific, non-neutral point of view, of developing a cabal to avoid 3RR issues, and apparently finds it cute to use a mocking form of using/mimicking words shared by other editors in follow up edits or reversions that have taken place, essentially trying to bull the way through, with seemingly no real intent to seek a consensus-obtained, sound and well referenced set of articles. It's always disappointing when all can't not only act in good faith, but also show reasonable respect to others across wp efforts. ChristensenMJ (talk) 07:13, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Reference Errors on 20 January[edit]

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Salt Lake Tribune[edit]

I undid your reversion because who owns the competing paper, especially considering the history of the Salt Lake Tribune vis a vi the LDS Church, is relevant to the article. I did fix the wording however to say that they own it, not produce it. Cat-fivetc ---- 19:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, t. I made another small adjustment then in light of your desired edit, since the ownership was already identified in the article a couple sentences later (why I noted it wasn't needed in reverting your edit). ChristensenMJ (talk) 19:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) :I didn't realize it was already mentioned that the LDS church owns the newspaper, my edit was just to revert back to your version before I did my first edit to it today, there are no intervening edits other than your reverts so nothing was lost in the revert. Just having the note in the history section that they bought it wasn't entirely clear so I appreciate your edit. Cat-fivetc ---- 19:31, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Didnt' mean to revert your fixes, went back to your latest version and I'm going to stop editing it now so I don't mix it up again. Cat-fivetc ---- 19:36, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Not a problem! Sounds great! Thanks for your efforts!! ChristensenMJ (talk) 20:40, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.[edit]


This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The discussion is about the topic Gordon B. Hinckley. Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:39, 5 February 2015 (UTC) (DRN volunteer)

Template:LDS Temple/Idaho Falls Idaho Temple[edit]

I accidentally saved before I completed my sentence. I understand your reasoning, but the "s" is needed for all the templates used on List of temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to work. Without it the temple is listed as "OPEN".--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 18:03, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I suggest that if you don't think it is correct, bring it up on Talk:List of temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Then it can be corrected.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 18:05, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Hi, ARTEST4ECHO, thanks for the message. I am not sure I completely follow what you're saying about the templates - where does the "open" part kick in? I see that in the listing it notes on all 5 that are currently closed that is the case, but there may be some other issues with the templates that I don't readily see and/or haven't worked with before. Thanks so much! ChristensenMJ (talk) 18:11, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
There are a large number of automatic tempaltes that change things based on the "Status" of the temple". For example, on the map on Template:List LDS Temple USA Northwest
I have been adjusting the ones I know about to take into account your choice in words. Until I made this edit the missing "S" the map kept the Dot on the map Template:List LDS Temple USA West Map as red or "Open". Additionally until I made this edit, the temple is listed as "Open" at Template:List LDS Temple USA Northwest. I have changed those to take into account your choice in word.
Unfortunately there are several other templates that I haven't yet figured out how they work that need the same changes. I suggest leaving the "S" in place and then bring up the change at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement/Temples so that all the other templates can be changed.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk)
OK, thanks so much for your response and the efforts! I wondered if perhaps something on the maps were an issue, since the "text" associated with listing and templates shows the designation. ChristensenMJ (talk) 18:23, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
The "status = " text is used in a "switch" statement to determine the color of the dot and the what text to display next to the name. For example if I chose "status = Closed" the dot on the map will appear as black and "(closed)" will appear next to the name. Unfortunately only an "exact" match works. Even capitalization matters. I have change two of the issues, but I know there are going to be many more. I really suggest you leave the "S" for now and then bring it up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement/Temples. Then the 10+ other templates used in the "Temple" pages will still work. Then those of you with much better grammar skills can decided who is right and wrong.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 18:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
OK, sounds great. Looks like we need to go into all 5 that are closed at this time then and update them...... The other thing I did last week was include in the status of the Mexico City Temple a status of "Closed for Renovation / Rededication Scheduled" - which sounds like it would also be a problem with various templates. ChristensenMJ (talk) 20:08, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Cultural Mormon[edit]

The link links to a plastic surgeon's website. Please look at links before you reinstate them. It has nothing to do with the article or Cultural Mormonism. RoyalMate1 19:46, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the message, Royal. If that's the case, then simply state it in the edit summary, as editing guidelines would typically dictate. I wasn't making any judgement on the content, as I noted. ChristensenMJ (talk) 19:50, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for April 8[edit]

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Joseph Smith - Live Birth vs. Stillborn[edit]

I redid the edits to the Joseph Smith page. The previous reference of Bushman p69-70 is incorrect and does not talk about the death of his son. I corrected not only the information that it was a live birth, as supported by the source, but also corrected the page number. If there is another reference that mentions a still birth then please correctly reference that material. Here is a link to the correct page in the reference material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brownmattc (talkcontribs) 23:25, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. Sounds great. I simplified or summarized the changes, as that level of detail not needed in the paragraphs trying to capture what was going on at that time. Thanks for your efforts to notice that it incorrectly stated the baby was stillborn. ChristensenMJ (talk) 00:52, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Harold B Lee[edit]

Hello ChristensenMJ. I spent a good deal of time looking at the Kimball biography, Quinn, and McKay biography sources that were there. I included those in the latest version--none of the sources are missing and you did not restore any new ones. Also, there were errors in the previous version. Also, the text claimed things that the sources did not support. There was no indicating in the sources of a unanimous vote in 1969, particularly since all three sources say that McKay and Smith were entirely against until a revelation came, and so were numerous apostles at the time. The sources also do not support the claim that Lee "blocked" the LDS Church. He couldn't "block" the LDS Church. He, Dyer, Petersen and others played a prominent role in suggesting a revelation versus mere administrative change which, according to the sources, was only really propounded by Brown. Check the sources yourself. Don't revert because it 'read well before'; it was inaccurate, and read poorly. Most important the sources did not support the claims. Vermilioncliffs (talk) 16:01, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

April 2015[edit]

Information icon Hello, I'm Winkelvi. I wanted to let you know that I removed one or more external links you added to the page Mormons, because they seemed to be inappropriate for an encyclopedia. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page, or take a look at our guidelines about links. Thank you. -- WV 03:12, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Winkelvi Actually I didn't add anything. These have been there for a very long time. You will have noticed that two other users, and IP and another suddenly got into a war about these. I am just restoring to what has been there. All they are is links to different parts of Mormonism, appropriate to the article. If the guidelines really don't allow for any 'see also' type of reference - such as linking to the official website of a university or other institution, that is fine - though seems harmless. Again, just know I didn't add anything - I was restoring long standing ELs that somebody started removing and they were warring over. Thanks so much! ChristensenMJ (talk) 03:16, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. In any case, you shouldn't be restoring the links - the reasoning for removing them is solid and in line with policy. Joining in the edit warring over reverting the removed content back in isn't advised. -- WV 03:18, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your thoughts and understanding, Winkelvi. However, I think that given wp:elofficial there isn't anything wrong with the links that were there. They generally don't appear to be things like just random blogs - or may provide additional background, information, etc. on the topic of the article, with those typically from an independent news source simply doing reporting on the topic. ChristensenMJ (talk) 03:24, 27 April 2015 (UTC)


u know that I did not add or remove any links to that article don't u? (talk) 03:12, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes,, at a quick glance it appears you primarily tried to update the info related to the PBS link. You're biggest problem is the edit warring that you've engaged in, for which my guess is that you're likely to get blocked. ChristensenMJ (talk) 03:27, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
  • just so, Copenhagen temple is hard to find RS on. But Lyn Wilder and her book are notable. A young man with whom Wilder and her family were close was sent to Denmark, and the Wilder family visited him in Copenhagen, attended the Temple, and she wrote about the visit.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:41, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
the Temple in Portland is such a large institution that I am surprised to find it up for AFD.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:41, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments, E.M.Gregory. I guess I am just playing a bit of devil's advocate here - "who" says that Lyn Wilder and her book are notable - and just because they happen to visit this young man while in Denmark, how does that improve the article, make it notable, or really have a true impact on the article. I am just not sure any of that has been demonstrated. "Any" temple that is visited by "any" person, notable or not, wouldn't typically make the temple notable, in and of itself. ChristensenMJ (talk) 02:17, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I misunderstood, the young missionary the Wilders visited at the Copenhagen Temple, Matt was Wilder's son. Of course Wilder doesn't make this temple notable. But it is routine to add a descriptions of a building, institution, place taken from a memoir to a WP page. E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:20, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.[edit]


This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The discussion is about the topic Harold B. Lee. Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you!

Sorry, I noticed you made a statement but were not notified. This will be my first DRN case, so I'm not sure which formalities can be skipped, so here you go. --L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 22:40, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks so much, L235!! ChristensenMJ (talk) 22:45, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello, from a DR/N volunteer[edit]

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This is a friendly reminder to involved parties that there is a current Dispute Resolution Noticeboard case still awaiting comments and replies. If this dispute has been resolved to the satisfaction of the filing editor and all involved parties, please take a moment to add a note about this at the discussion so that a volunteer may close the case as "Resolved". If the dispute is still ongoing, please add your input. --L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 22:48, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the message, L235. I am not sure whether the resolution discussion needs to remain open or not. The user who brought it as one who used 4 different IP addresses and in first time editing, focused on a small part of one article. That was the issue the user raised - before content removal I had wanted opportunity for consensus discussion opportunity. Subsequently, another new IP and another user who had previously only done 6-7 edits last October appeared for either a single day, or a few days at the most. The latter user and I engaged in some discussion and subsequent updates of the Harold B. Lee article in question, now that user has been silent again for a number of days. I personally have no more things to contribute to the resolution discussion, unless any of the day-use IPs appear again and are insistent upon non-consensus driven content removal. Thanks for your willingness to assist. ChristensenMJ (talk) 01:04, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Would you prefer that I closed the DRN case? Thanks, --L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 01:05, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Well, obviously I didn't open it or make the complaint, so I didn't know if I could suggest that. To me, it seems that would be reasonable, but also why I tried above to give some background and context, so you'd have a flavor of where things stand - at least from my viewpoint. ChristensenMJ (talk) 01:08, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
This is a formal notice that barring objection, this DRN case will close in 24 hours. Thanks, --L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 03:34, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

IP socking at LDS biographies[edit]

@AndyTheGrump and Gilliam: I've semi-protected all the articles that got hit today for one week. Looked into a rangeblock but too much collateral damage with it being a mobile IP range. --NeilN talk to me 04:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

@NeilN: thanks for looking into it! It's maddening how many bios this vandal is targeting.– Gilliam (talk) 04:10, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, @NeilN:, thanks for the time & effort. As @Gilliam: noted, it's also real strange the type of editing - ranging from simply not adhering to mos and using honorifics, to then throwing in strange profanities/vulgarities on related-subjects and broader articles, that seem inconsistent with what at times just seems an inexperienced approach. Anyway...... ChristensenMJ (talk) 04:23, 25 June 2015 (UTC)