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I see you have done some good work on articles on card games. I don't know if you've noticed, but an article which needs attention is ombre. There is plenty of content there on the literary context of the game, but the section on how to play it needs improvement. I have thought about improving it myself, but I don't know the game well enough.
A barnstar for you!
|The Tireless Contributor Barnstar|
|For all your work on playing-card and card game articles. Maproom (talk) 00:14, 3 March 2015 (UTC)|
Cloisters set of fifty-two playing cards
It was mentioned in passing in Michael Dummett's Game of Tarot. The Stewart Culin collection contains a late 19th century pack which can be seen here and here. The high card of each suit is marked by a red stamp which is why the two high cards of the suit of tens is known to have been dropped before that time. You should also check out Gernot Prunner's Ostasiatische Spielkarten which contains a large catalogue of Chinese cards. --Countakeshi (talk) 07:18, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I know. I am a card game researcher, and what you've been doing here on card games in general was done by me, and previously by Hans Adler and User:2005. Nonetheless, you have an advantage once you're deeply involved with eastern cultures, so it seems. I have never read Tarot Games, but I've been trying to find it to buy. Thanks for providing the links, specially the mentioning of Gernot Prunner's Ostasiatische Spielkarten.
- You said there: "At the end of each round, various bonuses can be achieved by producing melds from captured cards." This gave rise to another, named... ? Let me show you this conversation: January 2010 to August 2011. Anything you wish to comment, please ! Krenakarore TK 06:54, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
- I see that you are researching information about the origins of Khanhoo and Mahjong? Andrew Lo wrote about Kanhu (看虎, Watching Tigers) also known as Douhu (斗虎, Competing with Tigers) in an article in The Playing-Card XXXI No. 5 p.221-229. An article by John Berry right after it compares and contrasts the Ming game to the Qing game. Lo translated a manual by Pan Zhiheng, the only surviving manual of that game. It coexisted with Madiao during the late Ming dynasty. Unlike Madiao in which tricks are played with one card each, Kanhu was a multi-trick game where combinations of cards are thrown and can only be beaten by higher combinations (see Tien Gow and Luk Fu). Hu (tiger) is one of the higher combinations and beats lower combinations called leopards. Neither Kanhu nor Madiao is related to the Yezi (Leaves) game of the Tang era. That game was a board game played with dice, the rules of which were lost during the Song dynasty. "Leaves" game was then reused during the Ming-Qing era to refer to card games which is why confusion arose about the Tang board game.--Countakeshi (talk) 11:14, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I research about the origins of Kanhoo (kanhu), whch was the very reason that brought me to Wikipedia.
Vol. 31 (2002-2003)
No. 5 Playing the Game: More Whist and comments on Tuppi
Chinese Money Suited Cards
L.P. Holmblad - Danish playing-Card Maker: The Tarok Packs
Pan Zhiheng's 'Xu Yezi Pu' Part 1
Tuppi: Lapland's National Game
No. 6 Playing the Game: Card Games in Iran
A Pack for the Prague 1908 Jubilee Exhibition
Pan Zhiheng's 'Xu Yezi Pu' (Sequel to a Manual of Leaves) Part 2
Playing-cards of the Cuming Museum
- By Kanhu, also known as Douhu (Dohu), you mean: Chinese Money Suited Cards by Andrew Lo, are you sure ? Another question is 看虎 Watching Tigers or 看虎 Watching the Pot ? So, by melding cards from captured cards gave rise to Dohu ? This is the very moment in time I have been researching for. For me, this moment is like standing in front of a door, which is closed, but I want to go through. I need to understand when the matching card game known today as Khanhoo was devised and put into practice. I wish to know the name of this game, how it was played, and compare them both. It would be very nice of you to lay your hands on the article Khanhoo (and believe me, you're the first user I ask this favor). I need more historical information. Do you play Khanhoo ? Krenakarore TK 22:42, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
- "Xu Yezi Pu" (Part 1) is about the Ming version of Kanhu and is written by Lo. The article right after it is "Chinese Money-Suited Cards" by John Berry and it discusses links between the Ming game and its Qing successor. I will try to rewrite the Khanhoo article but I will have to gather more sources and compile them together. Here are some other interesting sources: the game of cuajo/kuwaho and 18th-century Chinese melding terminology. I'll also have to read "Asian Games: The Art of Contest" which also mentions Chinese card games. I believe "hu" originally meant tiger but was corrupted to mean lake or pot during the Qing dynasty. My theory is that the earliest card games were trick-taking games like Madiao, then they became multi-trick games like the Ming-era Kanhu, and finally became melding games like Qing-era Kanhu and Mahjong. I don't play Khanhoo.--Countakeshi (talk) 02:29, 15 July 2015 (UTC)--Countakeshi (talk) 02:26, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
- It's not to rewrite it once the bulk of the article deals with game playing, but to add more historical content and describe the evolution of the game. What you have just said "about the Ming version of Kanhu" and "links between the Ming game and its Qing successor" might sum it up and that interests me greatly. How to play the game is there in two versions, Wilkinson's and that described by Culin. People around here added to the article and I would like to keep their contributions as well.
- Your theory is correct, there was trick-taking games like Madiao (which evolved and gave rise to Khanhoo as we know it today), and multi-trick games like Tien Gow. The important here is not to confuse the readers and keep the article focused on the matching game itself (the article is about Wilkinson's version, that's why the western title Khanhoo) with all those sets of combinations.
- Cuajo, yes I know. Before me coming to Wikipedia there was nothing on the net about Khanhoo, just an entry from Sid Sackson's Card Games Around the World. I still want to have it translated into French, Spanish, German and Italian to propel the information. I have been playing the game for 17 years and never exhaust discussing procedures, discards, memorization and strategy. I also collect sets produced by De La Rue. Krenakarore TK 22:38, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- I have no better word to thank you than the word "thank you" itself. It is amazing how the article has now got greater depth with your timely intervention. Although I would like to keep a few things there for reference purposes, I have no time now to make the changes once I am in South America. Nonetheless, I can't go without saying I am greatful to you for everything and also that I am copying this conversation to my talk page for archival purposes, with your consent of course ! Oh by the way, I still look up to a colorful picture to replace the black-and-white one you put there to illustrate the article Khanhoo. A million thank you again for elucidating a few things about the game, nomenclature, and related content of course, once I have this game in great account. What it is and means today is a lot more clear in my head thanks to you. Krenakarore TK 01:06, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
- You're welcome. I don't mind if you save this. Regarding the picture, you would be unlikely to find any coloured cards dating before the 20th century. Money-suited cards are monochromatic except for honour cards which are marked with red stamps. There are a few things I left out of the article. Pan Zhiheng is the only known source for the old rules which he wrote down in 1613. He learned the game in 1609 and witnessed the creation of the Pangolin combo. He says a certain Li Baowen invented this meld during one winter's night in Nanjing in a room by the Qinhuai River. You may have noticed that the highest special combo in the Ming game, the Hero, did not survive into the Qing game. It is also the only special combo without a card from the Cash suit. Pan's allegorical explanation is that the Hero is one who has abandoned greed to lift the morale of his army. Culin and Wilkinson disagreed regarding one of the melds in the Qing version. Wilkinson's account matches the "Wealth" combo in the Ming version and is more logical but he never published this discovery. Agreeing with Wilkinson is Tcheng Ki-tong (1890), which may be a pseudonym of Frenchman Adalbert-Henri Foucault de Mondion. By comparing the two versions, the Qing special meld of 1, 2, and 3 Cash isn't really a special at all and is just a "boy". --Countakeshi (talk) 15:23, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
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You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:32, 23 November 2015 (UTC)