User talk:Darkfrog24

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Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion[edit]

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Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion[edit]

Information icon Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you.

AE regarding naming the original filer and principal complainant[edit]

Please see WP:AE#Darkfrog24. RGloucester 14:38, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

To enforce an arbitration decision you have been blocked from editing for one week. You are welcome to edit once the block expires; however, please note that the repetition of similar behavior may result in a longer block or other sanctions.

If you believe this block is unjustified, please read the guide to appealing blocks (specifically this section) before appealing. Place the following on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Please copy my appeal to the [[WP:AE|arbitration enforcement noticeboard]] or [[WP:AN|administrators' noticeboard]]. Your reason here OR place the reason below this template. ~~~~}}. If you intend to appeal on the arbitration enforcement noticeboard I suggest you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template on your talk page so it can be copied over easily.  TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:02, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Reminder to administrators: In May 2014, ArbCom adopted the following procedure instructing administrators regarding Arbitration Enforcement blocks: "No administrator may modify a sanction placed by another administrator without: (1) the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or (2) prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" [in the procedure]). Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped."

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This blocked user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy). Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Darkfrog24 (block logactive blocksglobal blocksautoblockscontribsdeleted contribsabuse filter logcreation logchange block settingsunblock)

Request reason:

Nothing in the topic ban notice or in the answers to questions that I asked about the topic ban's terms states, suggests or implies that I am not allowed to say who filed the complaint against me when informing other editors that I am under a topic ban. I provided a user with this notice [1] in response to a ping in which he "found it odd" that I hadn't participated in an MoS-related discussion [2]. The only part of my post that I thought even might be covered by the ban was an aside about the other participants in the filing, which I immediately self-reverted ("immediately" here means "in under one minute").[3] While I am willing to refrain from identifying the filers in the future, it seems really odd to me that this would be against the rules in the first place. Doing so seemed natural, obvious, relevant and nonproblematic. I would like clear confirmation. After the complaint was filed, all three uninvolved editors who commented thought it was completely unfounded and vexatious [4][5][6] and the involved editor was neutral, preferring to focus on the deletion discussion [7] This pronounced difference between the findings of uninvolved editors and admins has left me confused about the continual habit of the admins to not assume reasonable good faith in my case. I notice that other individuals who are accused of violating their bans because of similar misunderstandings are given a clarification, asked not to do it again, and sent on their way without a block or a change in the terms of their ban.[8] I am surprised that no such request was made of me. I have repeatedly demonstrated my good faith by proactively asking questions about the terms and goals of the ban and by acting on what recommendations I was given (specifically admin Liz's instructions to search for another part of Wikipedia and continue to contribute). I find the fact that one of the editors took this as in an indication of bad faith troubling [9], particularly since I am expressly instructed to ask such questions in the topic ban notice [10]. Clearly, there is some kind of disconnect muddying the waters. I have spent the weeks since the ban was imposed avoiding the Manual of Style (even more carefully than I was required to at the time, as I later learned [11]; this shows that while I have mistaken the boundaries of the topic ban, I have mistaken them in both directions) and actively contributing to other parts of Wikipedia, such as WP:RSN, Third Opinion, Kasaragod, and Robb Stark. Regardless of whether this appeal is accepted, the AE process needs some kind of FAQ. I am not the only person who has had trouble with vague instructions. I am currently drafting one as part of a multi-month project, but at this early stage it is more useful as a record of what I have learned about AE since January. An expert on AE matters would be better. Thank you for your consideration. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:34, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Decline reason:

The appropriate and obvious response was to state, as other admins have noted, "I am not at the moment permitted to share it with you..." or to ignore the comment entirely. Instead you took the opportunity to breach the boundaries of your topic ban. Unblock requests aren't an appropriate place to float new policy language or to advocate for changes to process, this is a good example of a tendentious unblock request. Acroterion (talk) 01:13, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired.

Except it would be best to not mention me, too. I am not under any topic ban, and nobody has asked me to not contribute to such discussions of style. Dicklyon (talk) 01:16, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
@Acroterion: I don't understand what you mean by "this is not an unblock request." I read the guide to appealing blocks, and it seems to be in order. What did I miss? You're not saying that I should re-file in a different format or venue, are you?
I assure you that the idea that I am not allowed to say who filed the topic ban was not at all obvious to me. The AE thread was also closed much earlier than I've seen other threads close. I was expecting another admin to show up and contradict the others or for someone to make a request of me the way they've made requests of other editors. As for ignoring the comment entirely, I've been told that I have to inform people who ask that I'm under a topic ban. I'll see if I can find you the link to the diff.
I am guessing that your "float new policy language" comment refers to the FAQ suggestion, that it solely concerns venue and that it does not have bearing on your decision to decline the block. Is this correct?
Dicklyon, it is my understanding that you are indeed under a ban, a voluntary one. I said "I am not confident that Dicklyon is either" and not "and Dicklyon isn't either" because the specifics of what you are and aren't allowed to do are not my immediate business. The point of posting the link was for SmokeyJoe to see that for himself. However, if you don't want me to talk about you at all, that's certainly reasonable. You're more than capable of giving your own alerts.
Also, I have to wonder: Why are you here? You said you were going to avoid interacting with me. I'm not mad, but I'm a little surprised you even found out about this. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:30, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Unblock requests should be short and to the point, addressing the behavior that led to the block. Instead, this is an argument for an FAQ and an obfuscation of an attempt to discuss MoS without (in your view) discussing MoS. Since it is primarily a digression into more lengthy litigation of the kind that was on display at AE, it is declined. Acroterion (talk) 01:38, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
@Acroterion: Thank you for your prompt response. I thought that offering a solution that would prevent problems like this from re-curring was a good idea. So I should re-file with something that looks more like this? I am willing to refrain from identifying the filers in the future. I did not offer to do so in the AE thread because it closed before the subject could be raised and before I could confirm that naming my accuser is in actually against the rules.
One correction, though, at some point, one of the admins told me that I have to tell people who ask me to participate that I am under a topic ban. I can try to find you the diff if you think it's relevant. If that is the case, then no I wasn't allowed to ignore the ping.
I would also like any constructive criticism you have on finding out what I'm not allowed to do. Guessing is not working well. I've watchlisted the AE page so that I can observe any patterns, but it will take months for me to discern any patterns. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:47, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Well, I'm not convinced that you or any other editor are obligated to respond to anything. However, "I can't respond as you may wish because I'm under a current sanction" is always a good choice when there is any doubt. Short answer on what you can do is ... go write some content on a topic that interests you. MoS is pretty broad, you'll want to avoid discussions on GA and FA content, for instance, except on a strictly content-related (as opposed to style) basis. This is supposed to be fun, you seem to be falling down the rabbithole of bureaucracy-wrangling. Far too often we end up in passionate arguments about things like "The Beatles/"the Beatles." Let's have fun helping people understand things that they want to know about. Acroterion (talk) 01:57, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
@Acroterion: That's actually pretty close to what I've already been doing. Like I said in the unblock request, I hit 3O and RSN, in part to demonstrate that I can be trusted in contentious situations but also because they cover a wide range of topics and I might come across something that might interest me. No luck so far but it's not even been a month. I've participated in part of WP:TELEVISION in previous years, but for reasons unrelated to Wikipedia, I don't expect to have access to the source material this year. I realize this might be hard for most people to believe, but the history of punctuation is interesting to me.
It's interesting that you say to avoid GA and FA, because one of the admins in the initial complaint expressly suggested that I work on that.[12] Although, that was before the ban was modified.
I wouldn't say I've fallen into bureaucracy as fallen victim to it. I think part of the reason these complaints keep getting filed is because I do not know what is expected of me. That's why one of the projects I'm working on for the duration of the ban is a FAQ. I don't want anyone else to get stuck like this.
But gotta get this block taken care of first. I don't want to waste anyone's time with an unblock request that isn't properly formatted. Do you think this version is all right?
I believe I should be unblocked because 1) I am willing to refrain from identifying filers in future alerts; 2) I was never given any indication, direct or indirect, that I was not allowed to identify filers. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:00, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Found it. It was admin Killer Chuhuahua: "if directly asked, you must respond, 'I'm sorry, I'm under AE sanctions and cannot respond to that question'" Note that KC says "must respond," not "may respond." No comment on naming or not naming the accuser or posting a link to the AE thread. Here's the thread.[13] Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:09, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
While I've got you here, I understand that it's against the rules to bait or mock a topicbanned editor, but where does telling lies about me come in? Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:26, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Re-filing unblock request, incorporating Acroterion's comments on structure and content. As things stand, I do not plan to make a third request. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:54, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

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This blocked user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy). Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Darkfrog24 (block logactive blocksglobal blocksautoblockscontribsdeleted contribsabuse filter logcreation logchange block settingsunblock)

Request reason:

I understand that the admins consider it a violation of my topic ban for me to tell anyone who filed the original complaint against me while said topic ban is in force. I am willing to refrain from identifying my accuser in any future alerts. However, I would like it on record that I did not know that I was not allowed to include this information and was extremely surprised to find that the anyone felt otherwise. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:54, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Decline reason:

If you are asked to do something that would breach your topic ban you do not have to respond, but if you do you must not breach your topic ban while doing so. You chose to include comment about other users opinions and/or editing regarding the Mos despite, as noted by Laser brain below you were explicitly told that discussing other users' in relation to MoS would breach your topic ban. Thryduulf (talk) 16:50, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired.

  • I'm afraid you've utterly missed the point of why you were blocked, and as such, this unblock notice doesn't address the behavior at all. You've repeatedly claimed that you were merely "identifying your accuser" and that is a plainly misleading statement. You were attempting to draw attention to the identity of the accuser(s) (and their positions) for the purpose of editorializing on the issue and making your opinions known on both the filing and filers. You were blocked because you had already been repeatedly and clearly warning not to engage in this behavior. --Laser brain (talk) 12:23, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Point of fact, Laser brain, no I was never told about this, not repeatedly, not once. I was told not to talk about the MoS, not not to talk about the topic ban.
I think it would be more constructive if instead of continually saying that I missed the point, you guys would be more responsive in talking about what the point is. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:56, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
You can claim ignorance all day long, but the diffs are out there for everyone to see. Here Thryduulf wrote to you "For example, you may not discuss another users opinions of MoS topics, nor their editing on MoS pages or topics." Here you wrote "Please note the identities of the filer and principal complainant—and the degree to which other MoS regulars do and do not agree with them—and make of this what you will." You were warned, and you did it anyway. Now you're blocked. You will see additional blocks of increasing length if you continue to violate your topic ban. --Laser brain (talk) 15:45, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
LB, you are coming too close to calling me a liar, and that is not proper of you.
"RG filed a complaint against me" and "note the identity of the filer" are not a discussion of a user's opinion of the MoS, and it is not obvious that you or anyone would think that they were.
As for "degree to which others agree and disagree," I reverted that the same minute, and even then, it was only because I thought it might come close. Even then, they're talking about the complaint and not the MoS itself. I was deliberately trying to avoid skirting the ban.
The thing that you did not say was that "talking about the topic ban is equivalent to talking about the banned topic." That is what I didn't know. For you to claim I violated the ban is one thing, but it is not right for you to claim that I already knew your highly specific definition of violation. Do you understand now? Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:59, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Hm, no. I'm merely illustrating that your claim of not having been warned is without merit, and that you are not accurately describing your action as "identifying the filer". I've observed throughout this process that you have continued the behavior that got you into hot water to begin with: personalizing issues, fixating on "winning", and endlessly litigating issues until the people around you get frustrated. You've asked in several places (including my Talk page) for feedback on how you can improve and how you should behave during your topic ban. If you'd like my frank feedback, I'd suggest that you rethink your approach to conflict here. Better yet, stay away from conflict. WP:3O and WP:RSN would not be my first choice of venues to drift into after getting topic banned after conflicts in another area. I'm not sure why you can't just find a quiet corner to edit in and be at peace for a few months. But, feel free to ignore my feedback and advice. --Laser brain (talk) 19:03, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Laser brain, we are clearly not thinking of things the same way. When you say "focus on winning," what do you mean? What action did I perform that you see this way? What action do you see as "personalizing issues"?
As for finding a quiet corner to edit, 3O and RSN have been going well so far. My goal here is to prove that I can handle conflicts well. But then admins are the people I'm trying to impress, so your take on that is relevant. As for being at peace, it is very hard to be at peace when I'm topic banned in large part because someone lied about me and is continuing to say things that aren't true about me in forums in which I'm not allowed to respond. And I don't use the word "lie" without proof.
I was asked to participate in this discussion and under the impression that I was not allowed to leave SmokeyJoe hanging. In fact, both the second and third complaints were about cases in which someone else pinged me and asked for my input and I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to give it. I'm actually still not clear about what was wrong in the second complaint.
While I've got you here, while I've been blocked I've been writing up an essay that I'd been meaning to write for a while. It describes a dispute resolution technique that I came up with at WT:MOS, but I've also used it in other places. I'm inferring that I'm going to have to confirm that it has been sufficiently de-MOS-ified before posting it to my userspace. What would be the process for that? Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:30, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Only your own edits were taken into account during your AE cases. You are not topic banned because someone allegedly lied about you or because of anything else anyone did. That's probably the most off-base remark I've seen you make during this period and it shows a focus on others' behavior instead of your own. You're topic banned (and now blocked) because of what you did. Regarding your essay, I'd say that if you even have to ask whether it's "sufficiently de-MOS-ified" it's probably something you should not considering posting anywhere. --Laser brain (talk) 23:44, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, a good rule of thumb is that if you have to ask whether something would breach your topic ban then it more than likely does. Thryduulf (talk) 00:29, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
EDIT CONFLICT: Even if you don't think the things SmC said about me affected your decision, they definitely affected what I did and didn't write in my defense, and that almost certainly affected the decision. When SmC posted those links about me, each one was accompanied by a malicious and false description that would have colored the conclusions drawn about those diffs by at least some of the admins. "Use judgement if you are considering challenging this rule; consult previous discussions to see if your concerns have already been addressed to your satisfaction" is an innocuous edit, but someone who's just been primed with "She's trying to 'challenge' the MoS and get 'satisfaction'" might not think so. As for out-and-out lies (by which I mean things that couldn't be considered honest mistakes by any stretch of AGF), for just one example, he claimed that I removed a dispute tag "without doing anything to resolve the dispute" but left out the fact that I'd replaced what I'd believed to be a contested source and the fact that he and I had discussed it on the talk page. That's not even the only problem.
For some perspective: Before SmCandlish chimed in, Guy was talking about three months. After, I've got twelve months to appeal and the scope was expanded. That's how much I think he affected things. SmC's lies weren't the only thing in play—I can go into more detail if you want—but they are a huge problem.
In its current form, this essay doesn't mention the MoS or MoS issues at all. The best example of this technique wasn't on WT:MoS; it was elsewhere. Remember, I didn't think there was anything wrong with indicating that RG was the one who filed the complaint against me, to the point where I left that information in when reverting content that I considered merely close to borderline. I'm asking that someone check it even though I do think it's within bounds. I am being extra cautious because regular erring on the side of caution didn't work. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:36, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Thryduulf, I think, at most, you might tell me to remove a line or two. The core of the essay isn't about MoS issues. It's just a technique I came up with.
It just occurred to me this moment: I am allowed to draft that FAQ I brought up on the talk page, right? AE itself isn't covered is it? Not rhetorical. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:36, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

OK, I admit, I watch out of sort of sordid amusement; Shadenfreude perhaps. It really is pretty common, almost typical, for blocked or banned users to try to analyze and criticize the system that blocked them, as that's easier than understanding their own behavior that got them into trouble with that system. See User:Brews_ohare#Suggestions for a sad example. Do what I did when I was indef blocked: forget about it for a few months. Come back much later and try to do something different. Mainly, WP:DROPTHESTICK. Dicklyon (talk) 05:16, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Dicklyon, you'll understand if I don't consider you unbiased. After all, now you don't have me around to insist that you find sources for the content you want to add. As for dropping the stick, I was working on something else, I was asked to participate, I did exactly what I was told to do and got blocked for something that I could not have known was not allowed because the issue never came up despite my wide-ranging and proactive efforts to find out what is and is not expected of me—and four previously uninvolved editors agreed, with three of them saying that the complaint was so ridiculous that the filer should have been sanctioned. You'll forgive me if I don't think inadequate self-reflection is the problem here.
Going to the admins to find out what I could do differently was the first thing I did. It really didn't go over well.
While we're doing not entirely unfriendly heads-ups, if you haven't read the AE thread that led to this block, you should. If you don't want me to include you in any future alerts, fine, that's a reasonable request, but your name did come up there. There are a few things you should drop yourself. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:51, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

VWS essay draft[edit]

Like I said, I'm pretty sure I removed anything having to do with the MoS, and there wasn't much to begin with. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:58, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Vote with sources, for dispute resolution
For the role of voting on Wikipedia see, see WP:NOTDEMOCRACY.

{{supplement|pages=[[Wikipedia: Dispute resolution techniques]]}}

{{essay}} {{Wikipedia how to}}

Although most RfCs allow Wikieditors to run polls and list supporting and opposing votes, Wikipedia is not intended to be a democracy. Consensus is not supposed to be established using the number of editors who favor each option but using the facts available in published, reliable sources, the policies cited, and the logical arguments presented. However, sometimes a large number of editors favor one side of an argument even though it may not be supportable and other times the conversation becomes repetitive and no one can tell who said what any more. While many Wikipedians are willing to change their minds if given a good reason, long discussions can make those reasons hard to see.

One way to address refocus contentious discussions in a constructive and non-confrontational manner is to line up reliable sources quantitatively to show how many support each view.


Start a new sub-thread with a clear title, like "Voting with sources" or "Source breakdown," and explain the process.

A lot of good arguments have been presented that Harry Houdini was the first person to fly an airplane in Australia but a number of others support Colin Defries, and the discussion has begun to go in circles. I think we could benefit from building a source list to show how many RS support each position.
We could start with people adding the sources that they've used to support the arguments they've already made. Please place them in the list with the most important or most reliable sources on top (even if that means putting your New York Times source in between someone else's History of Flight in Australia and PlaneBlogger Forums, etc.)

Create further sub-threads for each principal position. Be clear and neutral. You will not convince anyone to change their mind if they do not feel that their positions are being presented accurately. Hashtags (#) create a numbered list, making the sources easier to count. It may also help to start the list for the opposing discussion yourself, ideally by adding a source already cited in the existing discussion.

Sources that support Harry Houdini

  1. Monash University [14]
  2. Smithsonian [15]

Sources that support Colin Defries

  1. Aircraft by Harry Cobby (1938)

Sources that support other first flyers

  1. Sydney Morning Herald, names Fred Custance

Treat entries in these lists the way you would treat headers under WP:TPO. Do not sign the posts; do not consider them to belong to any one particular editor. Allow other editors to modify them when appropriate. Do not place any limit on the number of sources that can be added by each participant; it's not about how many people there are. Don't over-curate the list. Let the other editors place things as they like. This is as much about sharing control as it is about proving a point.

Decide whether to include sub-reliable sources, such as blogs, based on the needs of your specific discussion. Sometimes a source that would not be sufficient for use the article space can still provide useful perspective in talk page discussions.

Applications, advantages and disadvantages[edit]

This technique is relatively non-confrontational. By focusing on list-building rather than on refuting arguments one by one, editors direct their energy at a shared project rather than at each other. Undecided editors can participate without joining either camp. This technique works best with yes/no and either/or questions that do not have any middle ground, but it can also be used to address issues of undue weight and balance.

Sometimes this exercise reveals previously unnoticed distinctions. For example, all professional-audience sources may give one answer while all general-audience sources give another. There may be divisions along national lines or by publication date. ("All the sources published after the episode aired name the special guest actor and the ones published ahead of time don't. Maybe they were worried about spoilers.") Assumed or expected patterns may fail to appear. ("I thought only Americans would support Houdini, but there are a lot of Australian universities on this list.")

Voting with sources can also prevent the discussion from being reopened unnecessarily. It's one thing to tell a challenger "We established consensus on this last year" but far better to say "We established consensus on this and we found that reliable sources supported the current version 2:1. Here's a thread where you can see for yourself." If the challenger does decide to go through with a new discussion or RfC, he or she is more likely to show up with strong sources to support the proposal. If a significant number of new sources have been published since the last discussion, reexamination is probably a good idea anyway.

Articles in which this technique has contributed to resolution[edit]

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

There's still some formatting and phrasing to modify, maybe switch out Houdini for another example or else look up the actual names of the other candidates, dress it up with a few images, etc. Now here's why I want your input: The acutal-use examples. Of course I didn't mention any of the times I've used this technique at WT:MoS, but the single clearest case was Theater District, Manhattan, which would be placed right above "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken," formatted identically. The ambiguity is this: The terms of the topic ban do not mention WP:TITLE but the link to the original ArbCom decision that placed the MoS under discretionary sanctions does. Last week, I wouldn't have blinked at including this link in the essay, but it's become clear that we process these matters differently. @Thryduulf: Where does this link fit in? Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:58, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

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Credited accusations leading to the topic ban[edit]

Sorry for the length of time it's taken for me to get back to you regarding the questions you left on my talk page, my life has been busier than expected over the past few days.

Regarding the complaints that were the most significant, I don't keep it all in in mind, but from rereading the following stand out as being supported by the provided evidence - battleground editing, refusing to drop the stick, editwarring, "making a bogus ENGVAR case so that Darkfrog24 can do whatever Darkfrog24 wants", "This campaign against MOS consensus has been going on for 6.5 years", "DF24 jumps in with the pattern of pumping up discontent", "It's an impermissible behavioral problem to spend years pushing a point of view about the matter, tendentiously against consensus, across both projectspace and mainspace.", "[your response] doesn't address the problem, in my opinion. It looks like they are planning to keep on beating the dead horse forever on the topic of logical quotes.". And that is just from the first discussion - many of these individually would result in a topic ban being justified. Basically everything was evaluated if evidence was given for the claim, and if the evidence presented backed up the claim then it was taken into consideration.
Regarding your second question, asking anything about the subject of a topic ban other than a clarification about it's scope is a violation. Unless explicitly stated otherwise, topic bans apply to everything related to the topic on every page on Wikipedia. They last until they expire or are successfully appealed. The way to successfully demonstrate compliance with a topic ban is to leave the subject alone entirely without attempting to find the edges. If after your first ban you had stayed completely away from quotation styles then you could have, in the following six months, demonstrated that you have the ability to work with other editors on other MoS topics in a collaborative and constructive manner. However you didn't, you chose to continue talking about quotation marks, asking how to resume the battle that got you topic banned, etc.
Topic bans last as long as they need to. The goal is to remove someone from a topic area where they are actively harming the encyclopaedia and/or preventing others from improving it. If that means the topic ban has to last permanently so be it, but we always hope that it doesn't have to. However the onus is on the topic banned person to demonstrate that it is no longer needed and that if it is lifted they will not go right back to doing whatever it was that got them topic banned in the first place.
I have been on Wikipedia over 11 years and I've never seen anyone need so much clarification of a topic ban and still fail to understand it. I am not sure that asking further questions of me will be productive as I have about run out of ways to explain the same thing. Thryduulf (talk) 10:48, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
@Thryduulf: I'm glad I asked because this isn't the answer I was expecting. If I'm going to be topic-banned, it should be for things that actually happened. There are a few factual clarifications that you need to see.
I did not make bogus claims: If one of the problems here is that you think the ENGVAR issue is my own invention, we can clear that up easily: The overwhelming majority of sources from both sides of the puddle agree that American style is part of American English and British style is part of British English. They're not low-quality sources either (though most of those concur). We're talking Oxford Dictionaries, Webster's New World Punctuation, Chicago Manual of Style versions 14, 15, and 16 and online, Columbia Journalism Review and guides for many kinds of specialists, including scientists and lawyers. I could literally cite dozens more. That's not even counting the American and British style guides that don't give names for either system but clearly fall along American and British lines. In the years I've been at WT:MoS, no one has ever brought in a reliable source that said flat-out "This isn't really American and that isn't really British" the way that these sources say that they are. The idea that American style is not really American is the fringe view. The way I see it, if anyone wants to disagree with the conclusion I've drawn, that's one thing, but the assertion that I'm somehow making all this up isn't valid.
I am not campaigning in the article space: The way I see it, I'm not campaigning at all, but it's easiest to prove for the article space. You see my position on quotation marks in the article space because the sources support it. For further evidence that I am not campaigning, look not only at what I've done but at what I haven't done: I don't remove terminology that hurts my position from articles. I don't like that "logical" is also a name for British style, but it's verifiable and common enough, so I didn't remove it [16], even before I knew what WP:BIASED was. Same for the descriptions of national crossover and exceptions [17] [18]. I've even found additional sources for these facts [19]. Both original research noticeboard and the findings of a small RfC have found in favor of keeping the "American" and "British" terminology and excluding the claim that they're misnomers. Short version: I'm not the one pushing POV in the article space; I'm the one who's been stopping it. You may notice who the other person in these two disputes is.
SMcCandlish is not reliable on this matter: It looks like you're copying SMcCandlish verbatim on these issues, and you shouldn't. Not only is he probably very annoyed that I stopped him from putting his opinions in the article, but he's repeatedly taken it as a personal insult that I don't agree with him, to the point of ranting at me for using the terms "British" and "American" in my own, signed talk page posts. I've repeatedly told him that I'll look at any source he wants to show me, but all he does is repeat his opinion at me over and over. When I show him sources, it just seems to make him angry. He's probably still mad for last September when he got himself boomeranged [20]. He also might be upset about last summer when I asked him if he was all right, but that's speculation on my part. Everything he said about me should be disregarded. I'll assume that you did look at the actual diffs, but he handed you a dirty lens.
I am not the one who keeps bringing up WP:LQ: Most of the rest of these claims are more subjective, so I'll keep it short: I haven't started a thread against WP:LQ in years. People who don't know me or each other keep doing it on their own—because this rule is inconsistent with what they've learned in school and seen in RS. Then I bring in sources and evidence to support. The way I see it, breaking or unduly undermining WP:LQ is against the rules, but I haven't been doing either of those things. I guess what I'm saying that because opposition to WP:LQ is common and topic bans are not, there must be a Wikipedia-compliant way of opposing WP:LQ and it would be acceptable for me to return to WT:MoS so long as I kept to that MO.
So what you're saying is that you expanded the scope because asking questions about how to deal with WP:LQ in the future is a topic ban violation, even if I'm asking involved admins? Am I correct in thinking that you did disregard SmC's claims of casting aspersions?
As to why I need this much clarification, I figured that asking questions about what to do would be interpreted as a sign of good faith. I really don't know why you thought the opposite. The way I see it, I did stay completely away from quotation styles. I didn't talk about quotation marks; I talked about a person, and the things I said to Curly would have been no different if SmC had been topic-banned for sourcing or harassment. I did consider saying, "SMcCandlish, do you think that you are a quotation mark?" The way I see it, you said "Stay out of the park and don't even touch the fence" and then I got sanctioned for walking down the sidewalk on the other side of the street from the park. I can only speculate about why other people haven't asked you this many questions, but for my case, the fact that I was accused of twenty different things at once and that no one proactively stated which ones were given credence left me very much in the dark. Did other people have such a wide variety of accusations made against them in one complaint?
Patterns: I have been watching AE, and I have noticed something. Accused users tend to see the administrative process as separate from the rest of Wikipedia. For example, Hijiri thought it would be okay to report Catflap for violating a topic ban because AE itself is not the same kind of page as articles and talk pages. Hijiri's punishment is that he or she cannot affect the content of that page or speak his or her mind on this issue, and reporting someone doesn't affect it or express Hijiri's opinion. I was seeing the talk pages of involved admins the same way, a separate space. From what's been posted at talk:BANEX, people also tend to assume that their own user pages and sandboxes are out of bounds of the ban. That was one of the first things I asked you about, whether the WP:LQ essay that I have in my sandbox is off-limits.
Edit warring: What I am seeing here is the claim of edit warring. I have a higher tolerance to conflict than a lot of people, and if someone bothers me I tend to talk to them about it. Per MOS:SUPPORTS, I just didn't see what Dicklyon and I were doing as an edit war because we weren't just reverting back and forth but rather changing each new version of the text in ways that we thought the other would find more palatable and because this was taking place alongside talk page discussions. If that's against the rules then I can certainly spend the next eleven months developing and practicing alternatives. Were there any other cases of edit warring that you considered relevant? Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:50, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

I haven't got time to read all this in detail now, but from a quick read it looks very like you are discussing quotation styles and your opinion of them and of sources regarding them - if so then you are breaching your topic ban. Thryduulf (talk) 17:30, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

You will find that I have spoken of quotation marks strictly within the context of the enforcing admin's interpretation of the accusations made against me. I asked you exactly what I did that inspired you to issue the ban, and you cited two things, arguably more than two, that I didn't actually do. Then I provided proof. I'm confident that this is within the spirit and letter of the rules. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:57, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I disagree and believe it violates both the letter and the spirit, so I have initiated a request for enforcement at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Darkfrog24. This will obviously be decided by other administrators not me. Thryduulf (talk) 20:07, 28 February 2016 (UTC)


It appears that you intend to persist in relitigating your block and discussing other editors despite numerous editors telling this is a vio and disruptive. If you are genuinely incapable of understanding the ban than you cannot be allowed to edit. If, as I suspect, this is some kind of performance art, I would be willing to unblock you in a couple if weeks if you confirm that this tiresome behavior will cease. You have been blocked before and know the drill. For the sake of clarity, this is an arbitration enforcement block. Spartaz Humbug! 23:05, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

@Spartaz: It is not performance art.
I've come to think that it's not the ban itself that I don't understand. It's the people. The admins keep doing the opposite of what I expect them to do.
When I was first topic-banned, I went to the admins who made the decision and asked for constructive criticism and advice on how to make the best of things as a sign of good faith, to prove that I was interested and committed to working on whatever underlying issue inspired the ban. It was taken as bad faith instead.
When I found out that Thryduulf based part of his or her decision on something that I was able to prove wasn't real, I was expecting the reaction to that proof to be more like, "Oh! I see what you were talking about now. I still believe that complaints 27, 42 and 50 are valid but I now see that complaints 1 through 4 were not. Concentrate your efforts on issues 27, 42 and 50; disregard 1 through 4." What am I supposed to make of this?
When I just now cited the policy that I was following, I expected the next comment to be, "Oh, that's right. Darkfrog is allowed to do that. It says so right there." As we can see, you didn't react that way, and I don't know why not.
Laser brain and others, including yourself just now, have made it clear that they think that the fact that I don't understand what's going on is a problem. I was expecting, "Well at least Darkfrog24 is putting effort into figuring it out. That shows good faith." If this really is a problem, then why would my attempts to solve it upset you?
When you say "discussing other editors," what do you mean? The replies to Liz and the others or something else?
Here's one core issue that I've noticed about AE: People are expected to not only follow unwritten rules but to disregard written ones. You yourself have complained about expectations of telepathy. The 500-word limit is the most obvious of these, but I was also expressly told to ask questions if anything was unclear and that legitimate and necessary issues were an exception to the topic ban. That's three written rules that, at least according to the events of the past few weeks, aren't meant to be taken literally. That's a problem.
There is definitely something going on here that I'm not seeing, no question there. Is there something that people aren't saying? Maybe something that you think is too obvious to bother mentioning?
As to editing the encyclopedia, I've been doing that with no problems. I've written two new articles, helped out at RSN, resolved disputes at 3O, gnomed a couple of pages. The only times the topic ban has been an issue, other than yesterday, have been when someone else has pinged me to participate in a conversation. With Curly, I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to talk about people, and with Smokey, I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to name my accuser. Neither of these issues were covered in the questions I asked, so I couldn't have known about them. That's a problem too. I'll say what I said earlier: I followed every rule that I found out about. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:32, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
The admins keep doing the opposite of what I expect them to do I think you have an explanation of your frustration right there. MULTIPLE admins are telling you the exact same thing and yet you have expectations that they will devote endless amounts of time to discussing every little edit of yours and what is and isn't permitted. Like I said, the time for discussing the imposition of the topic ban was when it was imposed upon you. Admins have taken the time to further answer your questions but they seem neverending. Admins are busy people, there is always a backlog of work for admins to do and I don't think you can expect an admin to walk you through your edit history (any more than they already have) and tell you what you did right and what you did wrong.
Bottom line, your demands for attention have tested the patience of the admins who've encountered you and they have said "No more". Until you agree--with no qualifications or questions--to abide by your topic ban, you will not be unblocked. That is, the burden isn't on the admins to explain things to you any more, the burden is on you now to persuade an admin that you can live and abide by your topic ban. And I think they will require some convincing you can do this. Liz Read! Talk! 00:47, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Wait a second, are you telling me that I just got blocked for asking questions?
If you're too busy, then why not just say "I'm too busy"? I kept telling Thryduulf that he could take his time, after all, there was minimum eleven months involved.
@Liz: We seem to have a disconnect here. I didn't want Thryduulf or you or anyone to go through my edit history and say what I did wrong. I want you to go through the accusation or even just your thought process. I'm surprised Thryduulf was as thorough as he was. I was expecting something like, "I thought you were battlegrounding but didn't care about anything else, so focus on that" or "I consider the events at MOS:SUPPORTS an edit war and X and Y on the talk page need to change." I realize the compliant is over 9000 words long and a lot of work to go through, but I'm not the one who made it that way. That's not an exaggeration, by the way. I copypasted it into Word unhatted. It clocks in at 18 pages, 1769 words in-thread + 8121 in the linked section, and that's just the first complaint. (And that's just its length, never mind its other problems.)
As for why I couldn't have responded at the time, a full-length response to that would take minimum 10K, probably closer to twice that. Even if I had known back then that I didn't need to wait for permission to post something like that at AE, it would have taken me days to write it. The process would have been over before it was ready. (I asked at AE if I was allowed to ask for time to compose a response; no answer.) That is why I kept asking you guys to say specifically what you were objecting to (three times, four if you count EdJ on usertalk), so that I could focus on just the parts you cared about. I didn't get that information until yesterday.
Let me give you an example: SmC accused me of casting aspersions against his mental health. I know that I didn't and the accusation looks ridiculous, but maybe it looks different to you. As for yesterday's conversation, I was actually pretty surprised to find out that Thryduulf gave the "bogus ENGVAR claim" accusation any credence. I'd put it in the "The admins probably don't mean this one" column because it seemed obvious to me that SmC was just giving his opinion. Thryduulf not only mistook it for fact but considered it important enough for it to be the first thing on his list. If I hadn't asked, I never would have found out.
Let me see if I can explain this another way: Have you ever worked in or read about marketing? They sit in the meeting and talk about what they think the customers want, but then the results of the market research come in and they find the customers don't care about the things they thought they would and do care about the things they thought they wouldn't. Even professionals who have spent years studying certain groups of people can't always predict how they'll think. You have to actually ask people what they want. Never trust a guess.
I have been doing my best to abide by the topic ban, but I can't read anyone's mind. It seemed obvious to me that answering Curly's question about SMcCandlish wasn't covered. After all, SMcCandlish isn't a quotation mark. It seemed obvious to me that I would be allowed to name my accuser and post a link to the discussion. After all, I'd been told I was required to. All I can say is what I've already said: I've followed every rule that I found out about. I've watchlisted WP:AE so that I can observe the process and look for patterns. This has produced some results. I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to report another user for violating the same ban and had in fact been considering doing so, but when I saw Hijiri warned for that, well, it saved us all some time. But learning by observation is not an instant process. I cannot promise you that I won't step on another unmarked mine. They're unmarked. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:40, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
And now you are still relitigating, I suggest you cease or I'll turn off your talk page.
By the way, you were not blocked for asking questions. You were blocked because you appear incapable of understanding the topic ban. If you cannot parse what is allowed after all the explanations you have had than you will continue to infringe. I have never seen an editor so fixated in testing the edges of a ban and so unable to understand the concept of if in doubt don't post. If this is genuine then there is no hope that you will be able edit under the terms of the ban and it is disruptive if you are not banned. The only solution is to remove you until you can understand and comply with the ban. The reasoning cannot be made any clearer. Spartaz Humbug! 07:58, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
I'm trying to understand and to get you to understand. How, other than talking to you, would I get that to happen? I have no mind-reading powers.
That's just it—I wasn't in doubt. I wasn't testing the edges. I thought I was well away from them. The complaints I'm getting are for things that looked like they were clearly not covered by the ban. "Don't talk about quotation marks." Okay, I didn't. I got another complaint anyway. Why would talking to the admins who issued the ban be covered? Why would telling someone who filed the ban against me be covered? These all came as surprises. That's why I didn't ask about them—I didn't know I needed to.
Same in this case. BANEX says flat-out that I'm allowed to address legitimate concerns in an appropriate forum. Why wouldn't "Wait a second, I didn't actually do one of the things that inspired the block" be a legitimate concern and why wouldn't talking to the enforcing admin be an appropriate forum? I'm serious. I want to know. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:17, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Clearly we parse legitimate in a different way and there has to be an underlying presumption that a banned user is capable of understanding the terms of the ban and working within it without constantly relitigating the ban through asking questions about what it means. If you still do not understand then there is nothing more anyone can say that will help you get it and that leaves a presumption that you will never be able to independently function within its terms without asking an admin to check every edit. That's too time consuming to be tolerated - which is what has led to your block. I remain mystified how an otherwise literate and competent editor is unable to deal with this and this inevitably raises concerns about how genuine this problem is and my earlier comments about performance art. Perhaps it would help you to reflect that other editors seems able to get what the issue is and that the problem with understanding and parsing is sitting at your end. I'm honestly unable to think of any way I can explain matters more clearly to you. Spartaz Humbug! 14:18, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
I'm assuming that you do want a response to that.
For one, I haven't been asking about every edit. I've been editing almost entirely without trouble, in areas far from the MoS, since January. New articles Hadesarchaea and Helicase, POLQ-like, renovating Robb Stark, helping out at RSN and 3O, gnoming some GoT material. Generally, I've been roaming Wikipedia looking for something that isn't style issues to do, with no violations. I trip over the topic ban only when topic bans and their surrounding etiquette are the subject of discussion. 1) Didn't know I wasn't supposed to ask involved admins about the underlying issue. 2) Knew that, when asked to participate in a MoS discussion, I was allowed to tell the asker that I was under a topic ban, but did not know I wasn't allowed to provide any details. 3) It really does look like BANEX allows me to talk to the enforcing admin about exactly this kind of issue.
You know the concept "degrees of separation"? Well it was obvious that I wasn't suppose to talk about quotation marks, but it wasn't obvious that I wasn't supposed to talk about a Wikiedtior [sep] who was dealing with administrative processes [sep] that originated at WP:LQ. Do you see it now?
The time I've spent watching WP:AE has left me with some ideas of why other editors aren't asking so many questions, though of course you would have to ask them to be sure: 1) I went into this extremely unfamiliar with AE procedures and etiquette. Example: I didn't know the 500 word rule wasn't real. When EdJ suggested a discretionary sanction, I asked "What do you have in mind?" not knowing that I was supposed to make them an offer and already know what kind of offer they wanted. 2) The complaints against other editors are clearer. I don't see anyone else dealing with 8000+ words of highly variegated accusations and left to wonder which ones were recognized as unmerited and which weren't. 3) The fact that the accuser outright lied in several parts of his statement, as in not-just-an-opinion, knew-it-wasn't-true-when-he-said-it, more-than-mischaracterization lied, and that that hasn't been acknowledged, definitely isn't helping. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:58, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
From all I read, Spartaz understands, you can be assured of that. So you trying to get Spartaz understand whatever is sheer presumptuousness. The kind of presumptuousness Wikipedia can do well without.
You don't understand: your failure to try to understand is what led to your block. Now live with it. You no longer need to try to understand. If you continue trying: that's your good right, but do so without bothering other Wikipedia editors. The only way you'll ever be allowed to return here is when you have shown to understand, and haven't annoyed too many people in the process. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:27, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Spartaz clearly thinks I was testing the block, and I wasn't, so no he does not understand. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:32, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
You were testing the block, please don't talk nonsense. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:33, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Francis, I am telling you right now, I was not testing the block, and you're approaching uncivil. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:58, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
So an editor who draws an AE is genuinely taken aback that it was for something that seemed legit according to the written rules, and so asks questions that amount to "what did I do wrong?" And the response they get amounts to "you know what you did wrong" which is clearly a load of bunk. And for some reason it annoys people when that editor continues to question that dismissive and unhelpful attitude, so they are accused of talking nonsense. Seems to me that there's a level of prejudicial though regarding anything to do with Darkfrog here that frankly is insulting and unworthy of an admin. No, she doesn't get it, because no one has really tried to help he get it because instead of collaborating to find a solution, it's just extend the block until Darkfrog shuts up. That's the true nonsense here. oknazevad (talk) 15:07, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Tell me, what was your excuse for not answering any question asked by Darkfrog? Not an admin? Neither am I... and have been answering many of Darkfrog's questions in the past. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:19, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for your kind words, Oknazevad. To be fair to Thryduulf, he did answer my question about what I did. It's just that the list included a bunch of things that I didn't actually do. And Francis, Oknazevad didn't answer any of my questions because I didn't ask him any. Not sure what you're going for there. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:11, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Hi Darkfrog24.  You probably remember me.  We worked on an RfC or two together.  And you are also one of the editors with whom I "celebrated" (on my talk page) my 1000th edit.  I'm sorry to see that you are currently blocked.  I've been following the situation for some time and it makes me sad because, as long as you're blocked, it's a loss to Wikipedia as well as to you personally.  I think I can understand how you feel that there were issues raised about you that need to be addressed; and also how you feel that there are questions you need to ask in order to clarify the details of the ban.  But, pragmatically speaking, it looks like the only way they're going to let you back in is if you can put all that aside and move ahead with things clearly not covered by the ban (and that don't require asking whether or not the ban applies).  Things like the Hadesarchaea and Helicase, POLQ-like articles for example.  Please note that I'm neither siding with them nor siding with you.  I'm just expressing my opinion that you're a very talented editor and both you and Wikipedia will be better off with you once again editing.  But, rightly or wrongly, the only way that's going to happen is if you can stop looking back and look only ahead.  I hope to be able to edit with you again soon.  Best wishes.
Richard27182 (talk) 08:08, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

That's very nice of you to say, Richard, but the way I see it, that's exactly what I was trying to do, but the problem won't be fixed unless I find out what it is and deal with it directly. If it turns out the problem wasn't real, then that should be acknowledged. Also, I realize it isn't everyone's cup of tea, but writing about punctuation is more interesting to me than writing about proteins. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:40, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Possible attitudes include:
  1. I have to find out (whatever the consequences)
  2. I'll try to find out (without annoying people too much)
Where the first attitude leads to is clear: it got you landed here. But more importantly: the attitude doesn't lead to "finding out" whatever...
Whether there's a law about it or not: annoying people is as real in Wikipedia as in whatever other setup of human interaction. Eventually people don't take too well to it, even after giving a lot of latitude (and you have geen given a lot of latitude in this sense). So I repeat the invitation (much more nicely put by Richard but essentially the same): when you feel compelled to find out, please do so without annoying people too much. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:25, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Well Francis, if you actually read what I said to Thryduulf, you'll find I was exceedingly polite. When he expressed concerns about time, I told him to take as long as he needed. You're making assumptions about my motives that you shouldn't be making. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:08, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
I didn't mention "being polite" did I? Polite people can be very annoying. You asked a truckload of polite questions. In return, you got a truckload of polite answers (including Thryduulf's). Then things still went belly-up. Your never-ending polite questions & other niceties had become a nuisance: more nuisance than net benefit for the encyclopedia. My post above addresses how that works. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:24, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
If they felt overwhelmed, they were at perfect liberty not to answer. I hate to break it to you but "being a nuisance" isn't a block-worthy offense around here. I didn't disrupt the encyclopedia in any way. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:31, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Re. "If they felt overwhelmed, they were at perfect liberty not to answer" – they were also at perfect liberty to tell you, politely, that they felt overwhelmed. Which they did, multiple times, multiple people. You played WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, which in extreme cases is something one can get blocked for.
Re. "... "being a nuisance" isn't a block-worthy offense... " – two posts above I said "Whether there's a law about it or not... (etc.)": as you see, I was very definite in what I was trying to communicate; Being a nuisance ultimately kicks in and can get you blocked. Afaics it did. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:56, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Francis, at this point, the two of us are starting to talk in circles, and since you're really not directly affected by this in any way, I have to wonder why you're here. There was no IDIDNTHEARTHAT, just "I don't understand." Finding out that I got blocked at least partially for something I didn't do is more than enough reason to ask the questions that I asked and provide the proof that I provided. If in the future you should think of something new that you want to say, then consider posting here again, but I think we've come to "Have a nice day." Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:11, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── To make myself clear: I'd prefer to welcome you back as a well-behaving Wikipedia editor, also on style-related topics. Since your leaving some editors in these realms have become even more cocky than before... that is my stake in this: I liked the counter-balance. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:26, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

That's very kind of you to say, Francis S. I haven't been watching WT:MoS much recently. Is something going on? Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:12, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Darkfrog, asking what's going on at WT:MoS is a violation of your topic ban. I ask that this exchange be terminated immediately, lest you risk losing the ability to post to your Talk page. @Francis Schonken: Your involvement here is not helping, and I ask that you disengage. --Laser brain (talk) 15:24, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Kurowski discussion[edit]

@K.e.coffman: Thank you for notifying me of the RS discussion, but I am not at the moment at liberty to respond for reasons not related to the Kurowski issue. Good luck with your GA article. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:17, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: Same. Trying to get this disciplinary issue cleared up. Good luck with the article. Hopefully, I'll be at liberty to comment in a day or two. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:52, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Sorry to hear that the issue is still on-going; hope it gets cleared up! K.e.coffman (talk) 04:55, 14 November 2016 (UTC)


@Laser brain:

So you just didn't remember this, right? I found it in February. I know it was a long time ago, but it was cited in the complaint. Darkfrog24 (talk) 11:48, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

I can't say I have any recollection of why I considered myself involved in that discussion, or have any memory of interacting with you. I don't let things weigh me down that much over the years. I have to say I'm impressed that you've kept that same argument going since at least 2009, though. --Laser brain (talk) 14:19, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
That event was included in the complaint against me. Damage done, but consider yourself reminded.
It's more like this argument keeps coming up, just like it did before I joined Wikipedia. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:20, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Unblocked for ARCA[edit]

Hi Darkfrog,

You have been unblocked so that you can file an appeal of arbitration enforcement actions at WP:ARCA, on the condition that you edit your talk page and the ARCA page only. Opabinia regalis (talk) 01:52, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Understood. Thank you for your consideration. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:33, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Arbitration amendment request archived[edit]

Hi Darkfrog24. The Article titles and capitalisation arbitration amendment request, which you were listed as a party to, has been declined and archived to the case talk page, with a consensus among the arbitrators to decline any modification to your ban or block. For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 20:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

In addition – putting it here so that this isn't covered by the "For the Arbitration Committee" – a couple arbs have asked for you to be explained what you can and cannot do while topic banned. Here it is, as succinctly as I can. While you are topic banned "from the manual of style, and manual of style-related topics", you can:

  • Edit most pages and normally, and
  • Use quotation marks and other stylistic tools without reference to the manual of style.

You cannot, in any edit on this Wikipedia:

  • Discuss any aspect of the Manual of Style on any page;
  • Edit the Wikipedia Manual of Style or any closely related page or talk page, whatsoever; or
  • Push or try to test the boundaries in any way.

Under WP:BANEX, you may also [r]evert[] obvious vandalism (such as page content being replaced by obscenities) or obvious violations of the policy about biographies of living persons and [e]ngag[e] in legitimate and necessary dispute resolution, such as asking for necessary clarifications about the scope of the ban and appealing the ban. Let me or an administrator know if you have further questions. If any of this conflicts with anything an administrator has told you, please listen to them instead of me. Thanks, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 20:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for this @L235:, but this is what I've been doing since January. The problem is not that I haven't seen these rules but rather that not everyone is interpreting them the same way. For example, on February 28 (see above), I engaged in what appears to be textbook legitimate and necessary dispute resolution with the enforcing admin, but others see that differently.
I can promise to continue doing my best, and I can participate at AE to see if any patterns emerge. What I can't do is read minds. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:32, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
My advice to you, if you're under a topic ban, is simply to stay as far away from any editing whatsoever in the area. This includes reverting vandalism and other things that are technically "allowed"; that way there's no potential for differing interpretations to cause you trouble. Staying away from the problem area entirely and making positive contributions elsewhere are also usually pluses when it comes time to review the topic ban. Lankiveil (speak to me) 01:03, 9 April 2016 (UTC).
@Lankiveil: I agree and I appreciate your coming over here to help, but, again, that's what I've been doing since day one. I didn't touch the MoS, any of its subpages, or any articles related to punctuation or style at any point. I was blocked anyway. So I agree with the strategy, but I'm afraid there is indeed still potential for differing interpretations to cause trouble.
As for positive contributions elsewhere, how do 3O, RSN, ORN, gnoming, WP:COPYEDIT, Robb Stark and two new science articles sound? It's not that I don't agree with you. It's that I already tried it and it didn't work. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:27, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I am guessing from your edit summary that you think you are being subjected to undue punishment, Darkfrog24. Maybe you could explain to us all what you think you have done wrong, and what wrongs you think have been done to you. I think (for me at least) that the issue is that you are don't understand what people want you to change about your editing behavior, or you don't think that your editing behavior should be criticized. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 14:40, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Who's "us"? Does this matter concern you in some way that I don't see, Jack? Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:51, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Us, as in the community, and of course this concerns the community. Is there a substantial reason why you didn't answer the opportunity to address the elephant int he room. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:39, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, you specifically are not the community, Jack. If you want to know what happened, I can post you a link to my appeal. If the committee approves my request to archive the full-length rebuttal to the complaint that was made against me, I can point you to that. Otherwise, you have no further business here. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:53, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Again, you are playing semantical games, DF24. I (and clearly, others) want to know what your thinking is, in clear and unfettered terms. I've read the gawd-awful long complaint and rebuttal, including links. The point that I am trying to distill for you here is that no one is sure if you actually think you did anything wrong, or that you do not understand what myself and others within the community think you can do to correct these perceived faults. Understanding your thinking can help everyone adjust how to approach a course in addressing it without block after block. It's a time suck, and one you can greatly reduce through explaining in no uncertain terms your views on it. It is a legitimate ask, and I am here because you have acted the same way in pages we have edited together. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 18:02, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Ah yes, two years ago. You kept saying "everyone thinks so" when you really meant "I think so" a lot back then too. (Unless a whole bunch of people came to you and asked you to speak for them, in which case just point me to the conversation in which they did so.) Okay, I'll humor you. I am bad at figuring out what people are thinking but not saying. I assume not only good faith but also straightforwardness and complete information. For example, back then, you kept saying, over and over "This content isn't sourced well enough" so I'd go out and find more and better sources, and then you would get angry that I'd done that. Now if you had said, "I don't think this content is sourced well enough but I have no intention of tolerating it no matter how it is sourced because I also don't like it for other reasons," then things might have gone quite differently. You weren't exactly lying. I've got no reason to think you didn't also care about sources, and you did mention your general dislike for the content a time or two, but because you spent a lot of time talking about sources and only a little about other things, I believed that sources were your primary concern and focused my efforts there.
You'll recall that once Protonk pointed out that the real issue was the subjective editorial decision of whether or not the content improved the article, we held an RfC that addressed the matter directly, and the issue was resolved without further fuss.
I've often thought it would be great if there were a Protonk for this situation. There's a lot about this that doesn't add up, the way your actions and reactions didn't add up. There's probably something that people aren't saying. The biggest difference is that you were just one person and the admins are a group. So while your issue was, I infer, that you felt better about arguing your case from the concrete angle of WP:V and not from the much fuzzier angle of your subjective opinion, the issue with the admins might be something like etiquette or unwritten rules that they don't know not everyone knows about. And while I'd love to address this issue specifically rather than use our conflict as a metaphor, I also consider it possible that you're trying to trick me into violating the topic ban because you're still holding a grudge about not getting your way about a single-sentence content issue from 2014. While BANEX does state that I may engage in legitimate and necessary dispute resolution with the enforcing admin, that does not include you. If this isn't a trick, then go to AE or ArbCom and get special permission for us to discuss this. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:43, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I am in no way at all trying to trick you, nor is my question wine of the sour grapes that you say I have. Are you in fact banned from answering my question about what you think the AE's proposed prescription for rehabilitation is, and whether you think it is fair of them to ask it of you? I just thought you were banned from arguing MOS stuff on the relevant pages, but not on your own talk page.
I ask because I don't want to presume you are gaming the system, a la DE; like you said, its 2 years later. Just because I am seeing some of the same characteristics here doesn't mean they are. Thus offering you the opportunity to clarify matters without a lot of verbiage and semantics - which is what happens a lot with protracted discussions. I am not trying to trick or trap you. I am seeing people here trying to clarify matters, but I don't see your understanding of those clarifications. I am trying to help you, Darkfrog24. Sometimes help comes from where you least expect it. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:27, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, at the beginning of this I was only banned from talking about quotation marks and I keep getting censured for talking about things that aren't quotation marks, and BANEX does say I'm allowed to talk about the banned topic under specific circumstances that don't include these, so I'm going to wild guess that yes I'm not allowed to answer your question. If you genuinely don't understand this about topic bans, I don't blame you. There's a lot of guesswork involved. For example, I've seen at AE that a lot of people think t-bans don't apply to their own user space (WP:TBAN doesn't say one way or the other), but they do.
Well let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that's true. I'm not allowed for you to help me. However, we can work on you. I see you're still doing the same things you were in 2014: I don't know what's keeping you from accepting that your opinion is just as valid as everyone else's, but if you found a way past it, you might not feel the need to speak as though it were more than an opinion. For example, I don't think "the community" did ask you to come talk to me. I think you came on your own. The issue is that you don't seem to think that speaking in your own name is enough. But why wouldn't it be? Francis and Lankiveil didn't feel the need to claim authority past their own, and if you scroll up you'll see them express themselves with great confidence. I didn't treat either of them as if they weren't important just because they were individuals. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:37, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

IP making weird changes to user page[edit]

@Spartaz: @Thryduulf: @Lankiveil: @Kevin:

Some IP has been making weird changes to my user page[21] and either claiming to be me or being very confused about whose page is whose [22]. Not sure if it counts as "mocking or baiting a topic-banned editor" or just vandalism, but to whom do I talk about that? @ Hey, anon 217. If you're just on the wrong page, knock it off. If you're messing with me, also please knock it off. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:55, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP for impersonating you. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:13, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:16, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

"Up to one year in duration"[edit]

@Spartaz: I recently found out that the maximum block allowable as an AE action is one year. You were very specific when you said that this block was an AE action, so it should be changed from indefinite to expiring no later than February 29, 2017. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:24, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

No. Spartaz Humbug! 18:16, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
To be clearer because I realise the above response was rather terse. The arbitration committee has endorsed my actions so the block has been reviewed and accepted by a body that has no limits. Secondly, because the time binding is around your own understanding of the restriction and willingness to drop the stick. Indefinite is not infinite unless you fail to work out how you can edit without touching on anything to do with your topic ban. Spartaz Humbug! 18:54, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
@Spartaz: Actually, ArbCom does have limits. Only the community can issue community site bans, and this is a de facto site ban. ArbCom was dealing with a lot of material that day (the fact that I had a 1000 word limit to defend against a 10,000 word complaint definitely muddied the waters), and they might just not have noticed that you put the wrong time limit in. It would probably be best to ask them.
Just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of hiding this from me or anything—you did mark it "arbitration" and it's not your fault that I didn't know the implications of that at the time—but this is really making me feel like I need a lawyer (I mean for Wikipedia's internal laws; this is not a legal threat). I keep getting sideswiped by rules that I've never heard of before. I'm not done looking, but I'm pretty sure the definition of "broadly construed" isn't written down anywhere. I've found nothing on the voluntary ban system.
Providing my enforcing admin with evidence that some of the allegations against me were false is not failure to drop the stick. It is an attempt to climb out from under the bus. I don't have to spend the rest of my life under the rear axle because the sound of my digging annoys people. Truth be told, I was entirely expecting Thryduulf to say "Oh. I guess those particular accusations aren't true then. Huh." That's pretty consistent with what I've since read about his history at ArbCom.
Per understanding topic bans, I came across this rule while I was reading old cases and going through old edits to see how the topic ban rules have been interpreted in the past. So far, I'm not finding anything that says providing exonerating evidence to the enforcing admin violates BANEX, and I've found a few cases similar to mine that closed with no action. Yes, I've read OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but if I'm not allowed to ask questions, what's left?
On that matter, you say you want me to understand the way you and the other AE admins are interpreting topic ban, but you don't want me to ask questions about how you guys interpret things. In my experience, when someone objects to a problem and to that problem's solution, then there is some other factor in play. It might be something that you think goes without saying but that I nonetheless don't know about. I was in a content dispute with this guy once. He kept saying "This is improperly sourced! We can't have it without better sources!" so I went out and found more sources. "NO!" he said "Not these!" (comments not drawn to scale). So I found more. And more. And he complained about tendentious editing. I didn't get it. I was addressing the problem he'd presented to me, so why was he so angry? Turns out, this guy also cared about sources; but he also had other concerns about the content that he wasn't as comfortable talking about. I'm inferring that he thought that if I never found approved sources, he wouldn't have to talk about them. It feels like something similar is going on here. If performing evil action Q is a problem, then why wouldn't you or Thryduulf or anyone be happy to find out that it didn't happen? Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:52, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • tl;dr. If you don't like the answer I gave you then email arbcom and ask them. I'm retired and don't want to be sucked back into this cesspit. Don't ping me again. Goodbye. Spartaz Humbug! 09:16, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

You may want to peruse Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions/Log, where all sanctions are logged. You will see that indef blocks have been handed out plenty over the years. Whether that's at odds with the guidelines you quoted is a useful discussion, but probably not one for your Talk page. As Spartaz noted, you should email ArbCom and ask for their thoughts on the matter. I'm not dealing with you any further from an administrative capacity, but I do think you have positive contributions to offer this project and have gotten caught in somewhat of a vicious cycle. --Laser brain (talk) 14:05, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

I did send ArbCom a short email, but it seemed best to just ask Spartaz first.
I checked the AE archive before bringing this up. I hadn't noticed before, but AE admins issue blocks as both "administration action" and "normal action," which is allowed to be indefinite (but the unblock conditions are different). It seemed likely that a lot of those older blocks would have been normal blocks. Also, if some of these were AE indefs, it's possible that the admins in question just didn't know they weren't supposed to be doing it. Or it's like the 500-word limit and BANEX; the practical use of the rule has shifted away from its literal interpretation, in which case the thing to do would be to update the text of the rule so that it explicitly states that AE blocks can be indefinite.
That's very kind of you to say, LB. I think so too. I am committed to continuing to find a way to untangle this mess within Wikipedia's rules and etiquette. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:31, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
I don't know if you got the ping but I asked at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee whether blocks of more than a year are supported. The consensus of those replying (including Arbs and clerks) is that the first year is supported under DS but the remainder of the indef would be considered a normal admin action. It seems that you are still left with trying to get unblocked through normal channels, as it won't be automatically expiring any time. --Laser brain (talk) 17:42, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I did get the ping and have been watching the conversation. I am indeed under the impression that as of February 29 I would be allowed to take this through the usual unblock process if not already unblocked.
You guys should hold an RfC to change the text of Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Placing_sanctions_and_page_restrictions so that it says this explicitly. There are probably at least a few blocked Wikipedians who don't know that they have the right to pursue this avenue, and it would head off anyone else asking questions like this one. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:54, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Re your email[edit]

Hello Darkfrog

I have received your email, and in response to your question whether there is anything about your case that I am uncomfortable talking about on-wiki, the answer is "no".

Please though do not take this an invitation to involve me in discussions regarding your case on- or off-wiki. I have a limited amount of time for Wikipedia and I've already given you as much (if not more) of that as I am interested in doing. Thryduulf (talk) 19:54, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Then officially pass the baton and name someone else the enforcing admin of my topic ban. You're the one who enacted it, so you're the only one who's allowed to change it without an act of ArbCom or AE consensus. Since Spartaz is retired, I need the same for the block.
Consider not entertaining any more 10K complaints. They seem to be more work than you're interested in doing.
I was going to wait until I'd read more of ArbCom 2015, but since we're not likely to speak again... I was going through the archives to learn enough to meet the unblock conditions and I saw this, in which it looks like you're saying that POV pushing depends on what the sources say. Fourteen months is certainly long enough for a person to change his mind about something like this, but I was still surprised to see it. From my perspective, that's almost exactly what I showed you in February.
Goodbye and good luck, Thryduulf. What I've read of your user history really makes you seem like a decent and fair-minded guy. The idea that someone like that could think I would be so evil as to gaslight someone has been one of the worst parts of this. I hope we get on the same page one day. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:51, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Also got a message from you. You say that you're blocked for doing something that the DS rules explicitly and affirmatively state that you're allowed to do. I guess by that you mean ask questions of administrators on the topic from which you were banned. Is that what you mean? I.e. the DS rules say you an, but the block said you couldn't? --Elvey(tc) 20:57, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

@Elvey: Yes. WP:BANEX says that a topic-banned user may engage in "legitimate and necessary dispute resolution" with the enforcing admin and gives appealing the ban as an example. I see "here is proof that I did not do some of the things that you have listed as reasons for topic-banning me" as legitimate and necessary dispute resolution. At least some Wikipedia admins do not. The specific post for which I was blocked from Wikipedia is further up on this page. I can give you more details if you want, but I have to warn you this case has had a lot of twists and turns.
If it matters, I didn't expect Thryduulf to remove all of the topic ban at that time because I had not provided proof that all of his concerns were unwarranted (I can make a good case for it and some proof exists, but I did not list it in that particular post). I did expect him to at least acknowledge "Oh, I see now that not everything that your accuser said was true. You don't eat babies!" regardless of whether he thought said accuser was lying or just mistaken. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:56, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
Yes, a lot of twists and turns indeed. I sensed, after spending way too much time reading a ridiculous number of old threads, that (if I'm not mistaken) this is at its root a fight over WP:LQ. Punctuation. My head damn near exploded! In that light, User:Spartaz, User:Thryduulf, User:TenOfAllTrades, etc. seem to be extraordinarily patient, rather than harsh, given that is the context.
I read #Blocked, above, and the section above that, and tried to find the discussion that led to the account block, and instead came across TWO OTHER discussions at AE about Darkfrog24 - 26 mentions of Darkfrog24 in the collapsed Archive189 alone. I found these closes (the third is in Archive188):
Darkfrog24's existing topic ban is replaced with a topic ban from the manual of style, and manual of style-related topics, specifically including quotation marks and quotation styles. This applies on all pages, including your and other's user talk pages. This may be appealed no sooner than 12 months from today (4 February 2016). Thryduulf
Pursuant to the unanimous consensus of administrators commenting on this request, Darkfrog24 is blocked for one week. He is strongly advised not to further test the bounds of his topic ban. TenOfAllTrades on 13 February 2016
Darkfrog24 indefinitely topic banned from quotation marks and quotation styles, this may be appealed in 6 months. <snip> Thryduulf, 22 January 2016
Yes, I can see that it was a close call at times whether you were violating a topic ban. But enough is enough. Sometimes admins make tough calls and are influenced by the bigger picture and the bigger goal of trying to keep the peace so we can build an encyclopedia. Consider writing a post in which you recognize that you at least waded into a grey area with respect to your topic ban and that admins were quite (or better yet "very") patient with you. Consider that admins are often far less patient. --Elvey(tc) 20:35, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
@Elvey: As far as your suggestion goes, asking the admins what they thought I should change was the first thing I did after getting sanctioned.
As far as "enough is enough" is concerned, yes, I get what you're saying about limited patience, but you also say you saw the archive with SMCCandlish's post. When it's unhatted, with the in-thread text, that thing clocks in at just under 10,000 words. The cutoff is 500. That thing was twenty times the size limit and I was accused of literally dozens of different things, with no way to tell which ones the admins were looking at. I didn't even get to finish reading it before I was sentenced. I'm talking more than usual because it wasn't a usual complaint.
And when I did finish reading it? You're not the enforcing admin, so BANEX doesn't allow me to discuss what's wrong with that thing with you the way it at least seems to allow me to do so with Thryduulf. But the worst thing that he said about me doesn't concern the MoS, though: In the second complaint, he said I tried to gaslight him. Do you know what that word means? It's one of the worst things a human being can do to another, and the admins won't tell me whether or not they think I did it. Did you look at the actual diff? I asked him if he was okay because he'd been acting weird. That's poison if I say it? That's the worst kind of cruelty if it comes from me? Do I need to explain why I need to know whether the admins or anyone actually thinks I did something that vile?
I'm actually up for appeal, and I do plan to ask the committee how they think complaints twenty times the length limit should be handled, but if showing exonerating diffs to the enforcing admin isn't it, then WP:BANEX needs a rewrite.
I'd feel better about this whole thing if the admins would just acknowledge "Yes, the complaint is much, much longer than usual and was prepared at the accuser's leisure" even if they followed up with "all accused editors are still expected to deal with it in the normal amount of time, using no more than X words themselves." Even if they said "Darkfrog, you are an evil gaslighting bastard," it would show beyond any doubt that they saw that I was accused of something that extreme.
Let me end this with a question for you: Do you think I did it? Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:07, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Again: Sometimes admins make tough calls and are influenced by the bigger picture and the bigger goal of trying to keep the peace so we can build an encyclopedia. When they do this, there is no remedy for the person who gets sanctioned and thereby mistreated (because it's not clear they violated policy), because the norm is that when there's consensus for a sanction to be in place, editors (including admins) don't care whether the rationale for placing the sanction is fair or not. I've seen numerous cases of this and can't recall seeing a counterexample. You've been told by admins to stop relitigating, and yet you keep relitigating (as with pretty much your entire reply, immediately above). You should stop doing that. It bites that the initial impression an editor gets when welcomed, is that things are fair here, only to learn after they become invested, that they aren't. But like life, Wikipedia ain't fair. There's even an essay: WP:TANJ. And this is the last time I intend to post here.--Elvey(tc) 08:31, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
I'll take a look at WP:TANJ. But the idea that I have to be punished because someone else broke the rules doesn't work for me. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:32, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Per email instructions.[edit]

@Drmies: Now that the requisite time has passed, I request unblock for the purpose of ARCA appeal. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:58, 2 November 2016 (UTC) @DGG: Committee ping attempt #2, per instructions given by email. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:58, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

After your first post, Drmies unblocked you for the purposes of participating at ARCA. Opabinia regalis (talk) 01:00, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open![edit]

Scale of justice 2.svg Hello, Darkfrog24. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)


Hi Darkfrog, I support your efforts to get unblocked through the ARCA system, and I've even spoken out on your behalf that you should have some avenue of getting another chance. However, you have gone quite far across the line of what's allowed under the terms of your temporary unblock. You made your statement at ARCA, but now you are carrying on correspondence here with a number of editors and have even made a personal attack with your "liar with a grudge" statement. I recommend that you promptly retract and archive your correspondence here and limit your interactions with other editors to email. If you continue down this path, you are likely to have your talk page access revoked. --Laser brain (talk) 13:01, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

There wasn't so much as a "Don't do it again" from you or anyone when he called me that and worse. If you want proof that he's a liar, I'll show you proof. The only retraction necessary is "he's either a liar or not competent to distinguish truth from falsehood."
To the best of my knowledge, what I do and do not say on my talk page has nothing to do with whether I'm blocked, unblocked for ARCA or regular unblocked. Being topic-banned from a specific subject does not mean that I'm not allowed to talk about the topic ban itself or the process by which it was enacted.[23] Or is this guy wrong? Would be great if WP:TBAN itself weighed in. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:42, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm just offering a piece of friendly advice that carrying on your dispute with McCandlish here while you're actively trying to get unblocked/unbanned is unlikely to lead anywhere good. You are, of course, free to ignore me and keep doing whatever you want. --Laser brain (talk) 16:59, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
And I'm just pointing out that when everything from friendly advice to thundering condemnation is delivered solely to me, I find myself asking what the heck's going on. Go ahead and tell him to clean up his act. It would be rude of me to hog it all. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:17, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
I've thought about it, and here's where I'm coming from. Months ago, you defended his right to be pissed off by saying that I'd just "impugned his integrity" by using the expression "not being honest." But here you are scolding me for being pissed off when he called me a gaslighter and a nutcase and a liar and did so at great length. Do you see how I might think you're not being impartial when you act that way? Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:47, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Breach of unblock conditions[edit]

You were unblocked to participate at ARCA not to post elsewhere. Please stop or the reblock will happen sooner than you might like. Thanks. Spartaz Humbug! 07:18, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Done. I thought J. Wales' talk page was within bounds because of that "users may also appeal to Wales" thing, but I'll take your word on the matter. The request for a translator's been made and maybe someone will show up to help us work this out.
I hope you're enjoying your semi-retirement. Darkfrog24 (talk) 07:38, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Your request on JW's talk page[edit]

  • "Would someone fluent in both Admin and Very Literal please come translate?"

I'll say up front, I'm not interested in debate, or a re-hearing of what you feel your greivances are. Arbcom would appear to be assessing your situation at the moment. But in reading everything, I'm going to go out on a limb of WP:AGF because I think (and please forgive me if I am incorrect) this very possibly could simply be a massive set of miscommunications, combined with what appears to be that you are used to communicating with concrete language. And so to others this is being seen as wikilawyering.

So, let me try to help make a few things clear:

1.) You were unblocked for the sole purpose to allow you to appeal this block. Do not edit anywhere but this talk page and ARCA. If you edit anywhere else, you risk losing this opportunity for an unblock and you will likely be re-blocked indefinitely.

2.) Regardless if arbcom institutes an interaction ban between you and SMcCandlish, you, as an editor, have the ability to self impose one upon yourself, by not interacting with them.

3.) My understanding, based upon reading what each of you said, is that, how SMcCandlish meant to use the word gaslighting, is apparently not how you understood it. This type of misunderstanding of what a word is intended to mean, is not uncommon on Wikipedia. This is a typewritten environment, after all. If in doubt, assume the best, and if still in doubt, ask for clarification. This is always better than becoming upset over a perceived slight. And if you feel you have been maligned, there are places to report that, to bring other eyes upon it, as well. (The appropriate location can vary based upon the issue.)

4.) A topic ban is intended to reduce disruption. If you are asked to avoid a topic, then do not type on Wikipedia concerning that topic. Period. Avoid everything that arbcom tells you to avoid. Otherwise you will face further sanction. (I'm not going to try to re-clarify your topic ban, that's up to arbcom to clarify if they deem so necessary.)

5.) To be clear: This is all merely my opinion as an uninvolved admin, and of course whatever arbcom says trumps anything I've said here. I've written all of this in the hope of helping you to become a positively contributing editor, instead of being indefinitely blocked.

What you do now, is up to you.

With all that in mind, is the following text something you can agree to?

a.) I fully accept and agree to the imposed restrictions (including topic bans) that arbcom has already applied to me, and fully intend to follow those restrictions until released from them by arbcom.
b.) Because at least part of the topic involves the manual of style (MOS), the breadth of which appears to be unclear to me, would arbcom please succinctly and concretely show some examples of what "broadly construed" may mean in my case? I understand that arbcom obviously cannot show me every possible example, and I understand that the topic ban would not be limited to only these examples, but that this will help me be more clear of my footing when editing and discussing.
c.) I agree to either a one-sided or mutual interaction ban with SMcCandlish (at arbcom's discretion), and even if arbcom does not impose such an interaction ban, I am willing to self impose one, and ask SMcCandlish to please respect this. I understand that this means I will not engage in discussion with SMcCandlish in any way on any page.

I hope this helps. - jc37 00:54, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

@Jc37: Thank you for responding to my request and please accept my personal gratitude for your good faith.

1) I have already been informed not to comment further on Wales' talk page, or else I would have thanked CaJames2 for his help and told the others that further discussion was not necessary for my sake. I think CaJames probably has it right and I've asked the Committee to confirm that what he's stipulated is indeed what they want from me.

2) I think that's a good idea. I've also been deleting the posts he's made to my userspace. He was told by the AE admins to leave me alone but probably needs to be told again.

3) I agree that it's a good idea to ask for clarification. That's why I did. I asked "do you really think I tried to gaslight anyone?" with a link to gaslighting. More than once. Of the admin who, to all appearances, acted on the accusation, and to a member of ArbCom. They did not answer me, and it's been eating me alive for ten months. This is less about SMcCandlish saying something extreme and more about other people believing it and officially endorsing it by meting out punishment.

4) Again, I did. I keep getting re-sanctioned for talking about things other than the MoS, except on one occasion when I offered exonerating evidence to the enforcing admin (which looks like it's allowed per WP:BANEX). (I am not topic banned from anything but the MoS and style issues.)

a) I already said yes to the Committee this three or four times. That's why I think this is a communication issue. Either I'm saying it wrong or there's some additional thing that they want me to do. Again, I think CaJames might have got it and have copied his comment to ARCA.
b) This is the only suggestion of yours that I think is a bad idea. Drmies specifically told me that asking about how topic bans work would not be tolerated. I've asked for similar clarifications before, proposed additions to the text of WP:TBAN based on the abovementioned trial and error, and things like this only seem to make people angry. The biggest issue is that I want to know whether talking about the topic ban itself even if the banned topic is not being discussed is tantamount to violating it. There seems to be at least some difference of opinion on this matter.
c) I actually think Robert hit this one on the head. We could do with something as mild as "Don't talk about anything either party did before this date, December 2016, for the next three years." As for mutual interaction bans, I said back in February that I'd be willing to do one, and that stands. Mostly, I want to still be allowed to do something like this. (A diff-by-diff analysis of an accusation SMcCandlish made about another user about a conversation that I had witnessed.) At the time, it didn't even occur to me that SMcCandlish might have been trying to do anything fishy. I just thought he was mistaken. I think if someone had done this for me back in January, we wouldn't be having all these proceedings.

I would say "remain a positively contributing editor," but thank you. I think I know what you mean.

I hope it helps too. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:47, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Appeal declined[edit]

Hi Darkfrog - since the motion to decline your appeal has passed, I've reblocked your account. As described in the motion, you'll be eligible to appeal after the one-year anniversary of your original AE block. Please do carefully consider the advice you've received regarding the best approach for future appeals. Opabinia regalis (talk) 21:53, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

I always have. I did notice something, though. You said that the only thing that I am supposed to infer from a sanction is that at least one of my actions was considered disruptive and that I should not make any assumptions about which one. But then you also seem to think that I am supposed to know which of my actions were considered disruptive without being told. This places me in an impossible position. If nothing else, the committee should state clearly which of my actions are considered non-Wiki-compliant so that I can work on them and so that the committee won't have to deal with a defense against charges that they don't care about in the firs place. You can always change your minds later. There's not much wrong with that so long as everyone acknowledges that it's happened.
You also seem surprised that I am angry about the way I have been treated. I reiterate: This didn't happen ten months ago. It has been happening for ten months, and you have told me that I must endure at least three more of daily and very public humiliation. Healing comes after the knife is removed, not before. If you want me to forgive something, acknowledge that thing and ask me to.
While we are talking of advice, I hope that your decision to block me does not mean that you will not address the problem regarding the lack of clear guidelines for dealing with extremely long complaints. That would be best for everyone. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:23, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Also, why take this back to ArbCom? You guys clearly don't like being put on the spot, and you're the one who said that standard practice would be to use the regular unblock system. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:49, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Grand jury stage[edit]

@DeltaQuad: preapproved as something half legitimate

1) It is inappropriate for you to say that my appeal was not legitimate. 2) Other than that, though, I wouldn't mind an official preapproval stage so long as anything dismissed is dismissed without prejudice. This entire process has left me feeling like I need a lawyer (talking about Wikipedia's internal rules; this is not a legal threat). Half this problem is that I didn't know any of the AE etiquette back in January. An on-Wiki lawyer would have been able to tell me what the heck a voluntary ban was, whether I was allowed to ask for more time, that "1RR" doesn't mean "one talk page post per day," and what ArbCom does and does not consider a serious procedural problem. If you guys want to set up some kind of grand jury stage in which experienced editors advise the accused regarding what's expected of them, I think that would be fantastic. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC)