User talk:Djegan/Archive2

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This archive page covers approximately the dates between 09-MAR-05 and 30-MAY-05.

Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.

San Marcos vs Saint Mark[edit]

See: Wikipedia:Village_pump (policy)#Interpretation of WP Naming policies. There is no precedent for anglicizing it except in some obscure and antiquated theological texts. -- Viajero 11:58, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Is that page definitive or discussion (looks like the latter)? - my problem is not with the name it is with that revert war that has been carried out for several days on the national university page - if the problem is severe enough then get someone to mediate, if not already. In the absence of a final decision then leave it as it is. I hope that this revert was is not been carried out in other section of wikipedia. Djegan 12:31, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Once again User:Viajero isn't being civilized as same being stubborn and intolerant with new users like me and others, the fact that we disagree with what he thinks is right it doesnt mean, he has the right to call my arguments as obscure and antiquated.I am an student from the National University of Saint Mark one of the most prestigious educational institution in Lima, Peru, or also called UNMSM. i am supporting Saint Mark based in the opinion of the Catholic Church (the same institution which named the university in the first place) precedent of anglicise the name.[[1]] is an Article from Catholic Encyclopedia a document approved by the Catholic institution and recognized everywhere.

User:Viajero is trying to impose his point of view even without reach a compromise about the use of the anglicise name, by his own is destroying and modifying all articles that has the name National University of Saint Mark replacing by his point of view of the name.

If you wish you can leave you opinion about this in the following link Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Interpretation of WP Naming_policies, Thank you to take time to read my dissertation, wish you have peace and prosperity.HappyApple 05:30, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is quite an interesting one - generally the most commonly used name is used, however often it is inappropriate to follow this rule exactly, particularily if the name where to cause offence or be misleading, for instance. I have searched the internet and seen that the english variation is not quite so common, however first impression at seeing the name was that "San Marcos" is a place, but obviously not - the reasons for using an uncommon name need to be articulated properly, with citation of modern legal documents or precidents been a must, and is is a good idea that as a minimum that all sides refrain from reverting until a final decision is made. Being accurate and correct are important functions of wikipedia and where their is ambiguity, especially as Peru's first language is not english, places an extra burden of proof. Djegan 20:50, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

City infoboxes[edit]

Hey, good work on the Derry motto. I do realise my skeleton/crest is rather crude at best, but I'm content to have it suffice until such time as someone does a better version.

Now there's just Armagh, Newry and Lisburn to go.

Oh, any ideas where one could find the area of the city limits for NI cities (not their boroughs)? The population data I added to Derry is from the NI census data.

As a footnote - I'm likely going to upload the Ireland county maps coloured/marked out as they were previously (Much as I would like to ignore the NI issue). It seems anything else will cause too much trouble. As pointed out by someone, the six NI counties persisted as administrative regions after partition, so the inaccuracy element is not quite as pertinant.

zoney talk 11:45, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the cities, the city limits and status ambiguity is the reason why I have not started infoboxes or contributed to them (Northern Ireland) greatly rather than lazyness or sectarianism on my part! Cities in the United Kingdom are quite different (if slightly) compared to the Republic of Ireland and it is difficult to get authoritive information on status, boundaries and population. I am not sure that "City of Placename" is correct except for a very few cities in the UK, but rather "Placename City Council" is currently in vogue - status and area are also quite alien to what traditionally used to happen, for instance it has been typical in recent years to state someting along the line that "city status is purly honorific and confirs no additional status on a town" - i am not going to kick up stink about it but it is a curiosity nonetheless, you have to read between the lines on that UK cities article.
In particular all the boroughs in Northern Ireland which have the status of city have this confired on the "city council" itself except in the case of Newry in which it is on the town, now a city. The UK is full of these two tier ideas "banks and building societies", "universities and polytechnics",... which eventually unify but are still miles apart!
Their is a great difficulty in getting statistics on Northern Ireland using traditional city and county ideas, their is this [2] but by no means useful using strange terms like "metropolitan urban area" and such which have no legal status i have seen. And from what i have stated above city and council areas are essentially the same.
Agree that you should upload the maps - making any changes will inevitably upset people.
Djegan 12:19, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The "Placename City Council" is indeed correct for the borough, or council area - but as regards the city itself - City of X is as good as anything as far as I know. I mean, the Derry City Council area is clearly more than the city. Also Derry City Council is a body itself - and the infobox relates to the city, not the council.
As for the others - again, Armagh City and District Council is not only the city itself - same with Lisburn City Council and Newry and Mourne District Council. All names refer primarily to the administrative body, as well as area administered (which is not just the city itself).
zoney talk 13:04, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The point that i am articulating is that "City of Placename" is not a distinct legal entity, but rather something that is historic and the "Placename City Council" has possession of city status - for the whole council area, with exceptions (i admit my mistake above). It is complicated and difficult (for the UK) to get primary material on the matter and this makes it more difficult to be clear - this is why i don't contribute much to these articles because if it comes to a discussion or disagreement citeing a document is better. In the UK only law published since 1988 is online, in the Republic all law since 1922 is online. In the UK a significant body of additional relevent legal material such as letters patent, royal charters and such are never released centrally in the public domain and make the matter even more difficult to be clear on.
UK law on city status is beyond my understanding and someything that is more a curiosity rather than anything else. In most countries "city limits" are very well defined in law, maps and signs but not in the UK where is almost a matter of rumour.
Djegan 13:33, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
We may have well-defined limits here, but Limerick's city limits are absurd. More of the city is without than within! As for Limerick County Council's new headquarters being just outside the city limits, beside the major expanse of the newly sparkling temple of the Crescent Shopping Centre and the landscaped Dooradoyle Road... talk about making a point!
As for part of the city being in County Clare...!
zoney talk 13:44, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I can hear the people of Limerick banging on my door (this wikipedian is a witch) that i am not welcome in the city or county! Seriously, if the City of Limerick expands into County Clare (their is a proposal) then that administrative county will, by law, become smaller and the boundaries and populations changed to City of Limerick in official records. The City of Limerick and Limerick City Council have exactly the same extents, Irish law is so much simpler as cities and counties (except Kilkenny) are distinct legal entities of each other (sight of relief)! Djegan 13:58, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

History of Dublin[edit]

This has come up on the notice board, a proposal to split off some of the History of Dublin article to shorten it. The logical thing to do as far as I can see would be to move some sections to a new Architecture of Dublin page (Destruction of Georgian Dublin, etc.). Obviously the History of Dublin article can be linked back to in the edit summary of the split/move, but it would be preferable to have the major contributor of the content show up in the edit history. So if you agree with this plan, perhaps you could be the one to do the initial content split (preserving your attribution as major contributor on the new page).

It may be that shortening the History article isn't too necessary - but as we were discussing creating a new architecture article anyway - it might make sense to move some content there (allowing the two articles to grow).

zoney talk 15:52, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I will post my reply at Wikipedia talk:Irish Wikipedians' notice board Djegan 14:13, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Requesting your opinion[edit]

Hello and greetings from a fellow wikipedist =)

There is currently vote regarding to the Saint Mark and San Marcos consensus. I believe as matter of compromise between the anglizice way and the spanish name, both should be used (mentioned) like in the article of National university, it ended the revert war, and it is impartial and neutral. I ask you to please feel free to vote on the following link Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Voting, i will appreciate it. Thank you to read my message. Cheers. HappyApple 22:17, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Irish pound[edit]

Great work! The article is greatly improved from what it was.

zoney talk 22:37, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Your input, particularily regarding checking any Irish spelling, is welcome. Djegan 23:27, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The Irish pound article uses "réal" in place of "reul", the latter is most prevalent in usage, can you shed any light? Another article indicates that "reul" comes from Spanish. Both are some minor detail worthy of inclusion. Djegan 23:48, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know, it is réal in modern Irish, but was spelt reul before the spelling/language reform of the (1950s?) - hence the old spelling on the coins. I think the earlier pronunciation was actually the same - I'm not sure the eu vowel combination is actually used in modern Irish. zoney talk 19:28, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I may have been mistaken about réal being the modern version (I can't find any verification of it). In any case, the "eu" is indeed inconsistent with Irish orthography. zoney talk 22:29, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Coin and note[edit]

Perhaps the actual "One Pound" note/coin needs to be separate from the currency article (Irish pound). The latter should merely introduce the Irish pound as a currency and go through the history of it (introduction, decimalisation, break with stg, withdrawal), with the article's other sections summarising Coinage of the Republic of Ireland and the as yet uncreated Banknotes of the Republic of Ireland (or similar).

Should there be two articles; Irish one pound note and Irish one pound coin, or one discussing both? I should point out that for the latter - the word "decimal" should not appear. Decimalisation affected only the subdivisions of the pound (stg and Irish), not the units themselves.

zoney talk 19:37, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You have a point the ten shilling article is for the coin only their was a ten shilling note; my only real fear is duplication and where to draw the line; but traditionally their is a gulf between banknotes and coinage when discussing. The other possiblity (i would prefer not to article notes by value but rather "series" as it ensures some artistic and chronlogical integrity) is to create a general Banknotes article (simailar to coinage) with three subarticles "Series A", "Series B" and "Series C" leading off and each subarticle discusses specifics of the banknotes of that series, of course images would be nice but gfdl is ideal and simplier than mass fairuse (of images from central bank) which could be pushing it? (in case you are not sure of series terminology)

Recommend Irish pound (discusses pound in general and no specifics on coin or note) Irish pound coin (discusses only the pound coin itself) and these additional articles:

Djegan 20:23, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Agree. Without getting into specifics, nevertheless Irish pound should have sections summarising the two top articles of Coinage of the Republic of Ireland and Banknotes of the Republic of Ireland. A few choice images of actual legal tender should remain on Irish pound (albeit with even distribution across history/banknotes/coins).
As an aside, I do miss the old notes, despite being a euro-advocate. And as for the coins, how boring could our government be just using the harp on its own on all the coins. Surely a small little harp beside individual designs could have been used, the way Austria put a tiny flag next their designs. Although as a workmate remarked at the time, a bit tongue in cheek, but probably capturing the reasoning, "Didn't we fight and die to have the harp on our coins?" Nevertheless, at the least a good Irish-language inscription could have been put on the edge of the €2 coin (we know what one Sinn Féin would have rooted for :-).
zoney talk 21:49, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I will start work in the next day or so - banknotes will take week or so. Djegan 20:58, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Creating Articles w/ Categories[edit]

Good work creating new articles. When you create things, it helps tremendously to assign them to an accurate category (see WP:CG for info). If you're really not sure about categories, at least assign your new articles a stub category (see WP:SC for info). By assigning a category, you help make sure your new articles don't get lost as 'orphans' that are not associated with related topics. Feco rcv'd your message... categorization is difficult at times, but it greatly improves usability. Outbound wikilinks do nothing to improve your page's usefulness, because random chance remains the only way to drive traffic to your page. Categorization gives it a family of articles. I know doing categories can be a pain at times, but after taking the time to create content, I like making sure that other people will be able to actually find and use it. Feco 21:14, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dublin Coat of Arms[edit]

Just noticed the disagreement over what is Dublin's coat of arms on the Dublin page. Is the current one the arms of the city of Dublin or the arms of the Dublin City Council? I'm just curious. I don't know the answer. I have also seen the one some other person inserted used for the city. But whatever you do, please don't insert that hideous new one the City Council has adopted. It looks like it was designed by someone on E!!! FearÉIREANN 23:27, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The current shield [3] (i use this as it is simplier than a full coat of arms with all the excessive heraldic trimmings) is the traditional City of Dublin shield similar to that used on the seal of the city and based on this coat of arms. My primary reason for using the shield, as distinct from the coat of arms, is that the former is simpler and fits more with the reasoning of wikipedia. Also licensing is easier as their is a limit to how far you can push fair use. Additionally it keeps all the cities in Ireland in a similar style; no chance of using the City Council "corporate logo" - this is another reason i used the shield - looks better and less hideous and presents a symbol easily recognised. Djegan 17:44, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No offense[edit]

Thanks for your help with the Media Lab Europe debacle which is super annoying, it isn't as if I thought this article was a big deal. The conspiracy thing is sort of funny, the Anon is the only one with an Irishness obsession. More generally, I admire your many contributions!Notjim 20:15, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I understand your frustration but these people occassionally muscle in every so often - we have all at least two or three past revert wars with anons - the anon user has a conflict of their own. If they started raising concerns on other talk pages they would not last two minutes, I am calling their bluff. Djegan 20:20, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

History of Dublin[edit]

I've made some fairly big changes to the history of Dublin page, including moving a lot of your original writing to a new article. Just wondering what you think of the changes. If you want to revert it, or part of it, or want to change, thats ok with me. Jdorney 22:03, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have not looked at it in detail but the layout seems fine - I only revert as a last resort and when something is really unacceptable - not this. Djegan 20:51, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You reckon it should be chopped up into new articles? Its very long...Jdorney

I would not shorten it, Dublin is the capital city of a state and a long history is unavoidable - all that is important is that it reads well and is accurate. If you are intent on chopping it up it might be better to get a concensus on the Irish wiki noticeboard talk - personally i do not think the former is neccessary. Djegan 19:41, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

ok, i'll leave it alone then Jdorney


I just noticed a glitch on your Luas map - I believe the stop between Four Courts and Abbey St is called Jervis (as in Jervis St) and not Jarvis. Thanks for all your contributions. --Pmaguire 00:45, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I will investigate and upload a new version if neccessary. Djegan 09:18, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Confirmed and new map updated! Djegan 11:38, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

11:38, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)


i wasnt sure how to talk to you I couldnt see an email address, I'm just getting used to this. Are you DCU alumni? By the way, I Changed the DCU definition again, You probably have a watch on it and can see that though. If you think my latest edit is wrong or inappropriate, change it.

I am a dcu alumni - and quite impressed to see such a long list of notable alumni you gave, please feel free to edit - i might change the main article and make the list of services into a paragraph or two, rather than a list. Djegan 18:33, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)


As far as I know DCU had the first starbucks in Ireland with microsoft getting the second one, I'm not sure if that would be a claim to fame but I've heard that they are opening a second one in the Sports Complex.

I'm sure there are more notable alumni, the list I gave are just the ones I've heard of.

Not sure about starbucks (might be worth a web search) and don't know of any other alumni (knew about o'hanlon previously). Djegan 19:10, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Alumni List[edit]

These pages may be useful if you want to compile a larger list of notable alumni:

you could also email them, they would probably be happy to give you a list:


Thanks, will search them for notable alumni in the next few days. I know their is a list of honourary graduates somewhere but am not to keen on this as it can be trivial as famous people get honourary degrees everywhere they go these days. Djegan 19:44, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Starbucks near Trinity has not opened yet, so currently the only two outlets in Ireland are DCU and Microsoft, I think that dcu got there first because there used to be signs up saying "This canteen proudly serves Starbucks Coffee, the only place in Ireland to do so"

Also on indymedia, about half way down the page:

The link to Mark Little on the alumni page is talking about a different Mark Little as far as I can see.

It is a completely different person Mark Little (Irish journalist) is probabilly the most appropriate place to write an article on him.

Dublin Metro[edit]

Have you heard anything about the proposed dublin metro?

During the early days of the Luas design (c. 1998) their was a proposal to build from Broadstone to Ballymun via DCU however this was never proceeded with and very sketchy designs were made with no clear route. It is possible that the proposed metro will go thru' that area to the airport but the government could do anything and has committed to nothing. If a decision is made it will be published on and later on website; but as things stand Irish Rail may instead bypass the north city and build a line to the airport thru' open country to the north of the city.

Another example of Alumni from DCU[edit]

There are probably lots of CEO's of companies who are DCU graduates that we don't know about.

Have you asked the alumni magazine yet?

I am going to go thru' the alumni website and take out what i can - think it is unlikely that the university would name people because of data protection and such? Djegan 17:49, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Alumni Sources[edit]

Magazines in DCU such as "College View" & "An Tarbh" seem to have names of alot of the notable alumni in them, I dont know where they get them though. They are my main sources of the alumni list.

University View, the alumni magazine may also be worth looking at.

Info on DCU[edit]

The photograph of the college in the DCU definition is completely different to the current DCU campus. I dont know where to get one, but a new aerial photograph from the direction of collins avenue would do the college more justice.

I put that photograph early on in an attempt to use an image (possibly before I put in the logo, replace it if you want - it is old. Djegan 21:59, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have heard that DCU has attempted to purchase a piece of land called "hillside farm" (for 33 million) which stretches from the Library to Griffith Avenue. Do you have any information about this?

All I know about it really is that it is one of the few farms left in the city of Dublin - it would be worth researching and with a decent amount of information could be a article in itself. Djegan 21:59, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if starbucks comes under the term "social facilities"

Why not? (maybe trivia) Djegan 21:59, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do about a paragraph on important/specialized labs within the college. I'll have to get a better list of labs first though.

You'll love this!!![edit]

Hi DJ,

You might be interested in Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 April 30. I am proposing that we rename the category Elections in the Republic of Ireland because the republic was only declared in 1949 and it leaves everything else before then in a limbo. Some users want to put everything before then in there anyway, even though the name is wrong. Others suggest creating separate names for every Irish state, so you'd have Elections in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Elections in the Irish Republic (1919-1921), Elections in Southern Ireland (1921-1922) , Elections in the Irish Free State (1922-1937), Elections in Éire (1937-1949) AAAAGH! It would be a tangled mess, with some elections belonging potentially in 3 categories. I fighting a losing battle there to try to make them see sense. (They already decided previously to delete Elections in Ireland!!!) They clearly know very little about Ireland. One individual even is convinced it is a conspiracy in some way to attack Northern Ireland on wikipedia!!! (His evidence, my username is in green and orange! I kid you not!) Some sane Irish contributions from people who know what they are talking about would be a help! FearÉIREANN 22:18, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

This is why i do not use categories, because they are in continous flux and have become an end in themselves. Djegan 18:26, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I see more people voted for the removal of the Category:Republic of Ireland than against, but it was not enough. I suggest we create a Category:Elections in Ireland and then subdivide It for elections after 1920 between Northern Ireland and Independent Ireland. (Independent Ireland is the best name I can come up with. It did technically become independent, whereas Northern Ireland remained a region of the UK.) What do you think? Having elections from the 1920s and 1930s in a category using a name that actually only exists from 1949 is patiently absurd and makes Wikipedia look as though those on it are amateurs who don't know what they are doing, which is completely unfair to Wikipedians. FearÉIREANNFlag of Ireland.svg\(talk) 23:02, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I am not very fond of made up names (regarding countries) but it may be the only proposal which fits the historic span of this category. "Northern Irish Elections" and "Irish Elections" could be an alternative but these are far from idea as they avoid a country name and are thus ambigous and amaturish at best. Agree, Independent Ireland is best compromise. Djegan 08:58, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Hit counter[edit]

Are there hit-counters for wikipedia topics, to show how popular a particular encyclopedia entry is?

Not as far as i know but their is Wikipedia:Statistics that gives general info.
There was back in 2002 when I first joined, but they kept having to be disabled because they kept slowing down the system to a crawl. I haven't seen them being used for over 18 months now. Pity, as I liked knowing how popular an article was. FearÉIREANNFlag of Ireland.svg\(talk) 22:55, 17 May 2005 (UTC)


Well done for merging the Lucan articles. I remember spotting that should be done ages ago but then not remembering to do it :) jlang 00:39, 19 May 2005 (UTC)


Thank you for the kind intro into wiki. It is sort of funny becuase I already have read all that stuff. I'm an admin on another offline wiki based on the same interface and I have logged changed on wikipedia before. I have just finally got around to registering today. Polar ice 21:58, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Albert College[edit]

I've heard that researchers in Albert College discovered cause of potato blight in Ireland in 1853. Do you know if this is true?

An interesting idea - a very quick google search has produced this [4] although it would be ideal for something a little more comprehensive and several sources to validate. If verified might be worth putting in potato blight article. Djegan 17:54, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

GDA map edit[edit]

Is there a particular tool or system that you used to create the new GDA map? (Not a valid excuse for submitting 3rd party IMG, but would likely have created new from scratch if had time or straight forward way of generating) Guliolopez 17:17, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

I used one of the standard wikipedia maps of Ireland and a map of Dublin I previously created but decided not to submit. Merged the two after correcting for magnification and did a freehand in mspaint to even out any inconsistancies in style by using and alternate colour to reboundary the map and then removing any old boundaries. My maps are not particularily accurate, the key is keeping pure colours and large images and use wikipedia image markups to reduce the size and create something that is pleasing to the eye. If you want to improve (remove words, smooth lines, etc) of the GDA map please be my guest. Djegan 17:31, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Use PNG for maps with few colours and avoid JPG in these cases - latter for complex colours. Djegan