User talk:Francois-Pier

Welcome![edit]

Hello, Francois-Pier, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{help me}} before the question. Again, welcome!

You might have noticed that I tagged your article as there were a few issues I identified with it. I hope it doesn't discourage you. Please take time to address them, and if you need any help, just let me or any other editor know. Enjoy your editing!

Best regards, Yakikaki (talk) 18:55, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Teahouse[edit]

Hi again, I just thought I'd let you know, that if you need any help the Teahouse is a great place to go: Wikipedia:Teahouse

I really like the article you created, seems like an interesting character!

Cheers, Yakikaki (talk) 19:00, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Greece Invitation![edit]

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George Izard[edit]

File George Izard.jpg already in commons.
Please, delete File:George Izard.jpg, thank you. --Francois-Pier (talk) 04:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

They're the same. (The Wikipedia one links to its Commons description page in the first line.) —Gryllida (talk) 08:53, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Someone else already fix it. Thank you. --Francois-Pier (talk) 13:28, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Will Durant[edit]

This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can ask another question on your talk page, contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse.

I remark a line in Will Durant#Selected books because the link is not a bibliography of Will Durant, but commercial books, etc., used under Will Durant's titles, please check it... --Francois-Pier (talk) 07:16, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

They're a bibliography (meaning 2) — books he wrote. Which ones are not? —Gryllida (talk) 08:56, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You mast edit the section Will Durant#Selected books, because i hide the link with  (see the remark there). --Francois-Pier (talk) 13:26, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Besides, the link you gave is a parked domain, it doesnt look like a bibliography to me. (Were it an official working website of the author, I couldn't rely on it as a primary source.) —Gryllida (talk) 13:56, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, it were not you who gave the link. And the link is — now — broken (presumably it wasn't at the time of writing the article). I located an archive. —Gryllida (talk) 14:01, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nice job, thank you. --Francois-Pier (talk) 15:12, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. Nice find (thank you too). Gryllida (talk) 15:46, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your Greek translation of the octoechos articles[edit]

Discussion

I saw your last edits of the English articles, where you tried to correct the wrong plural forms of μέλος and γένος. I apologise for the mess and reworked them, partly I replaced the term mele with melopoiia.

We can say that there are lot more mele than echoi, but the plural form is rarely used, since melos itself is already a plural related to many modal patterns, which are a kind of vocabulary to communicate even spontaneous structural decisions. I prefer to speak about melodic models which can be also heirmoi in case of the heirmologion or avtomela in case of all compositions of the sticherarion or heirmologion. The prosomeia use the avtomela as a model, while melos rather refers to modal patterns like opening, cadence and accentuation patterns.

In more complex compositions the melos can change between the echoi and even its genos, so they are usually just refered to a small part of it, but melos also means the melodic flow of the whole composition.

I hope these changes will allow you to continue, but please take your time. It is a lot of work and you did quite a lot. If there are any questions or problems, don't hesitate to contact me.

Please note that these articles are only about the eight-mode system, because I reworked only this article, when it was already separated from a different one about the book and the liturgical concept behind it.

For terms like these there should be a difference to the modern orthography and its declination (you emphasized them by italic characters):

τὸ σύστημα τοῦ ὀκτωήχου (the eight-mode system), ἡ (βίβλος) ὀκτώηχος/ὀκτάηχος (the chant book or part of the sticherarion)
τὸ μέλος 2 possible specifications, e.g. "sticheraric melos of the third echos"
ἡ μελοποιία, αἱ μεθόδοι τῶν θεσέων τῶν μελῶν the different methods of creating the melos, the rules or conventions of melos, the Neobyzantine octoechos is usually refered as "the New Method" (ἡ νέα μέθοδος)
τὸ θέσις τοῦ μέλου/μέλους the process of melos creation, "Ioannes Koukouzeles' kalophonic method for the sticherarion" or "the method of the old sticherarion"
τὸ εἶδος (pl.τὰ εἴδη) Manuel Chrysaphes usually used the plural form, when he wrote about modal patterns of the melos
ἡ μεταβολή (pl. αἱ μεταβολαί), κατὰ τόνον, κατὰ γένος, κατὰ σύστημα, and κατὰ ἤχον
τὸ σύστημα (pl. τὰ συστήματα), κατὰ ἑπταφωνίαν, κατὰ τετραφωνίαν/τοῦ τροχοῦ, κατὰ τριφωνίαν, and κατὰ διφωνίαν
ἡ ἀκολουθία ᾀσματική sung or choral rite as name of the Byzantine cathedral rite

Platonykiss (talk) 08:54, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is no need to quote Merih Erol in note 55 (Παπαδική Οκτώηχος), since there is no English translation, but the original titel should be quoted here with a reference to Kiltzanides' book.Platonykiss (talk) 16:35, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

1) τὸ μέλος

Thank you for your suggestions, but none of them has a direct relation with the particular meaning of μέλος, except μελοποιία and ἡ μελοποίηση. The plural form μέλη is indeed used in the title of Keltzanides' book (modernised orthography according the catalogue of Anemi) Μεθοδική διδασκαλία θεωρητική τε και πρακτική προς εκμάθησιν και διάδοσιν του γνησίου εξωτερικού μέλους της καθ' ημάς Ελληνικής Μουσικής κατ' αντιπαράθεσιν προς την Αραβοπερσικήν συναρμολογηθείσα υπό του Μουσ. Π. Γ. Κηλτζανίδου Προυσσαέως

This is the polytonic orthography of the title page:

Μεθοδική διδασκαλία θεωρητική τὲ καὶ πρακτική πρὸς ἐκμάθησιν καὶ διάδοσιν τοῦ γνησίου ἐξωτερικοῦ μέλους τῆς καθ᾿ ἡμᾶς Ἑλληνικῆς Μουσικῆς κατ᾿ ἀντιπαράθεσιν πρὸς τὴν Ἀραβοπερσικήν. Συναρμολογηθείσα ὑπὸ τοῦ Μουσ. Π. Γ. Κηλτζανίδου Προυσσαέως.

Better you quote exactly this title instead of retranslating the English translation by Merih.

Please have a look at makam büzürk as one possible melos of echos plagios tetartos or mesos of echos tetartos (p. 159):

The author really regards the makamlar as mele of a certain echos. This is interesting because a makam is not a model like an heirmos or avtomelon, it simply has a seyir as transcribed here, but it was an oral tradition. Within a makam there were certain structural problems which were usually once solved by a written composition, because it was something that a musician could not handle by a kind of improvisation which was the usual tradition of a makam. But whenever this composition was done, it had solved the problem and then it was used by many musicians who knew these compositions by heart.

Here it has become a systematic subcategory of echos, but not every author uses the term exactly this way. Concerning Manuel Chrysaphes you can refer to melos in the plural form: τὰ εἴδη τοῦ μέλου (the formulas of the melos). By the way, this is also a publication which might help, since it has also a collection of quotations taken from historical texts, similar to the doctoral thesis of Maria Alexandru:

Arvanitis, I., 2011. Ο ρυθμός των εκκλησιαστικών μελών μέσα από τη παλαιογραφική έρευνα και την εξήγηση της παλαιάς σημειογραφίας. Korfu: Ionian University. Available at: http://phdtheses.ekt.gr/eadd/handle/10442/21885 [Accessed September 20, 2012].

2) ἡ ἀκολουθία ᾀσματική

τὸ ἀσμάτικον the asmatikon ("choirbook")
τὸ κοντακάριον/ψαλτικὸν the kontakarion/psaltikon
ἡ τάξις τῶν ἀκολουθιῶν "the order of services" (combines typikon, asmatikon and psaltikon with additional kalophonic books) the new book aince 14th-century Constantinople (but it was not used in all patriarchates)

Concerning the cathedral rite, I wrote you the right term which is a technical term and should be used like this. Of course, you can explain it, in the narrow sense it means the secular rite as it was celebrated at the Hagia Sophia of Constantinople, in a broader sense it means any secular rite which is celebrated in a cathedral, a secular community of an urban church with a baptistery (even an atrium in earlier times). There is for example the divine liturgy of St James at Jerusalem, which was also celebrated during the 9th century within the Mozarabic rite of Andalusian Spain (we know it from a letter by Charles the Bald). Even monasteries could celebrate secular rites during feastdays, when their main church was opened for guests or pilgrims. In Italy we have a particular divine liturgy of St Peter which can only be found in Greek euchologies written in Southern Italy.

Anyway I thank you very much, your translation really helps me to improve my poor Greek. Platonykiss (talk) 09:19, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Concerning ἀκολουθία ᾀσματική, the term originally derived from another context, but it is precisely the one used for the cathedral rite. You find further explanations in Oliver Strunk's article about Constantinople. It is not the term for the later mixed rite, but for this tradition which was continued in Thessaloniki and elsewhere. Platonykiss (talk) 17:28, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The plural form in the title of Arvanitis' doctoral thesis would rather have been a plural αἱ μεθόδοι τῶν θεσέων τοῦ μέλους in the language of Manuel Chrysaphes. But the latter's explanation are also perceived as very strange by the Greek who helped me with the translation, and her father was one of the famous experts of Byzantine chant. Platonykiss (talk) 09:32, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to say that this old Constantinopolitan Greek and the complex subject are still a controversial issue among musicologists. In this case it means methods of how to create the melos, dependent on the chant genre, the school or a certain representative of it, and since psaltike techne of the papadike (starting with John Koukouzeles) there is also a kalophonic method, soon also for the heirmologion (the living tradition mainly uses 17th-century composition of Balasios and Petros Bereketes, these Ottoman composers are more popular than the earlier Byzantine ones, therefore "post-Byzantine"). Platonykiss (talk) 10:33, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, I realised this, since you spent all this time translating it, but you know it is a kind of team work we do since the 18th century :) Don't mind others who never questioned it, and then accuse those who are not too lazy to think about it. Your work is a great help for me. Hence, I would like to ask you to check the plural of pathos in the translation of the alchemy treatise (I added it after your translation of the Hagiopolite article), as far as I know it must be neutral, am I right? Platonykiss (talk) 13:23, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for all the corrections in part 1 and part 3!!! Platonykiss (talk) 21:14, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Νεοβυζαντινή Οκτώηχος[edit]

Of course, there is also a Greek version of the patriarchal page about Byzantine music:

http://www.ec-patr.net/gr/

Here is the Greek link to Petros' biography, since you quoted it, this is the right link:

http://www.ec-patr.net/gr/history/petros-lambadarios.htm

The bibliographical reference to Galeria Koultoura (Athens) is very vague. It is either an added biography of the reprint edition of the heirmologion

Εἱρμολόγιον τῶν καταβασιῶν τοῦ ὅλου ἐνιαυτοῦ Πέτρου τοῦ Πελοποννησίου, μετὰ τοῦ συντόμου Εἱρμολογίου Πέτρου τοῦ Βυζαντίου, ἐξηγημένα κατὰ τὴν νέαν της μουσικῆς μέθοδον μετὰ προσθήκης ἱκανῶν μαθημάτων, ὧν ἐστεροῦντο εἰς τὸ παλαιόν, ἐπιθεωρηθέντα ἤδη, καὶ κριβῶς διορθωθέντα παρὰ τοῦ διδασκάλου Χουρμουζίου Χαρτοφύλακος, ἑνὸς τῶν ἐφευρετῶν τῆς ῥηθείσης μεθόδου, ἐπιστασίᾳ δὲ τοῦ ἰδίου νῦν πρώτον ἐκδοθέντα εἰς τύπον ναλώμασιν ἰδίοις καὶ Ἰσὰκ δὲ Κάστρο. Κωνσταντινούπολις, ἐν τῇ Βρεταννικῇ Συπογραφίᾳ Κάστρου εἰς Γαλατᾷν, ,αωκε’, 1825. (Ἀναστατικὴ Ἔκδοση, Ἐκδόσεις Κουλτούρα, Ἀθήνα 1982).

which you can check here or with the Anemi link of the bibliography:

http://analogion.com/site/html/Library.html

Or rather likely this book by Gregorios Stathis, which was published one year later:

Πέτρος Λαμπαδάριος ὁ Πελοποννήσιος ὁ πὸ Λακεδαίμονος - ἡ ζωὴ καὶ τὸ ἔργο του, Λακωνικαὶ Σπουδαὶ 7, 1983. Platonykiss (talk) 17:45, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it was copied from here:

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/greek/papadopoulos_music.html

This is the quoted part:

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/greek/papadopoulos_music_per7_1.html

Platonykiss (talk) 18:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ἁγιοπολίτικος Ὀκτώηχος[edit]

I see that you have finished your translation.

Dictionaries

For Ancient Greek terms and their meanings (translated into English) I recommend the historical dictionary:

Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon. revised and augmented throughout by Sir Henry Stuart Jones with the assistance of Roderick McKenzie. Oxford: Clarendon Press 1940.

You can use it online:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=

Try φθόγγος ("fqo/ggos"):

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dfqo%2Fggos

or ἦχος ("h)=xos"):

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dh%29%3Dxos

Actually it is very useful, that this dictionary is not limited on sources related to music theory. I suppose you know the database for Latin terms of music theory:

http://woerterbuchnetz.de/LmL/

Unfortunately it was not continued for a long time, so we still need to use the "glossar" here:

http://www.lml.badw-muenchen.de/info/index.htm

Elaborated psalmody

Αλλελουϊάριον does neither exist in modern nor in Constantinopolitan Greek (where did you find it?), and I assure you that I never heard any Greek community singing an epsilon, only Italian Greeks might have spelled eta with a darker colour closer to the standard pronounciation of epsilon, but the letter is clear. I believe that you are misled here by a Latin convention of transliteration which makes no difference between η and ε. As somebody who is familiar with Gregorian chant you will certainly know that προκείμενον corresponds to the responsorium graduale, but like ἀλληλουϊάριον it was never that regularly used as in the Roman rite (the daily practice is just the refrain or troparion repeated thrice, but without the psalmody of the antiphonon, while antiphon is the Latin term for troparion, for the prokeimenon the troparion today is the trisagion, but in this period it was the troparion of the third antiphonon at the very beginning of the divine liturgy corresponding to the introit of the mass). According to Christian Troelsgård's article in the New Grove the term "prokeimenon" can be traced back to the 9th century, but the practice of an musically elaborated, but textually abridged psalmody already developed by the end of the 4th century, which indicates that the musical part was celebrated by a congregation of educated cantors since this period.

The term ἀλληλουϊάριον can already be found in the psaltika and kontakaria of the 12th and 13th century (see Thodberg), the common practice is to notate just the psalm and to refer to a limited set of alleluia refrains in the appendix (the problem of scholars comparing Old Roman with Constantinopolitan practice is that they don't understand that only the beginning of the troparion is written, as it was sung by the soloist who prepared with this book, the rest is written in the asmatikon). Unfortunately I did not quote this important handbook in none of the oktoechos articles:

Thodberg, C., 1966. Der byzantinische Alleluiarionzyklus: Studien im kurzen Psaltikonstil, in: Monumenta musicae Byzantinae - Subsidia 8. Kopenhagen: E. Munksgaard.

Despite of the title, the book is about the psaltikon and kontakarion, and it is mainly useful, when you study one of those manuscripts. You would do no harm to insert it in the bibliographies, where "kontakion" is mentioned.

"Tonary"

is just the English term, the original Latin term is "tonarius".

τονισμός

As far as I know this term means accents relevant in poetic meter. There is a certain connection between the disciplin rhetoric of the trivium and the early chant theory as far as rhythm is concerned, and it might even go as far as accentuation patterns used in psalmody.

But the common Greek term for intonation formula ("intonation" seems a Latin term, but actually the precantor's intonation is usually described with the verb "inchoare") is ἐνήχημα or ἀπήχημα and is always in chant manuals today. The more neutral term ἤχημα can also be found, but the others are more common. This does not mean that it is not worth to be explained in an own article.

Quadrivium (εκπαίδευση)

The common opinion is that this Latin term was invented by Boethius, when he translated Greek treatises of Ptolemy and the Pythagoreans—mainly based in Croton (Ionian coast, Calabria) and Tarent (Salento, Apulia near the border to Basilicata), but I did not check myself, where exactly he used it.

"Artes liberales" is the Latin translation of ἐγκύκλιος παιδεία in the sense of the Pythagorean Isokrates, who actually meant ἐγκύκλια μαθήματα. Even if it just means the "cyclical exercises" the word mathematics derived from it, in the context of the Pythagoreans and their concept of basic education the "four mathemata" are harmonics, geometry, astronomy and arithmetics. In the time of Isokrates there is a reflexion, that the respresentation of this knowledge (the trivium with grammar, rhetoric, and logic) is also relevant.

The author of the article Trivium (εκπαίδευση) suggested an article Quadrivium (εκπαίδευση) which has not been realised so far, so you might follow his suggestion.

Darvaris, D., 1838. Χρηστομάθεια ἁπλοελληνική (Chrestomathia graeco-vulgaris), Vienna: Antonius Benko, p. 194.

Wang, Q., 2014. Boethius and the Importance of Basic Logic and Mathematics for Philosophy. PhD thesis. Leiden: Leiden University, p. 4.

Bibliographical entries to the manuscripts

Concerning the homepage of the Leimonos Monastery in Lesvos, I suggest to insert the links with the Greek descriptions. Here the list with leitourgika:

http://84.205.233.134/library/thumb.php?status=1

The modern Greek term for triodion is Τριώδιο etc.

See you! Platonykiss (talk) 11:01, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Πρότυπο:Chess diagram/τεκμηρίωση (στην ελληνόγλωσση ΒΠ)[edit]

Καλησπέρα.

Βλέπω ότι είστε ο δημιουργός του προτύπου el:Πρότυπο:Chess diagram/τεκμηρίωση. Έχω κάνει μια παρατήρηση στην σελίδα συζήτησης του προτύπου. Αν θα θέλατε να το κοιτάξετε το θέμα, διότι ενώ προσπάθησα να το λύσω αντιγράφοντας και τροποποιώντας τα Modules el:Module:Chessboard και el:Module:Chessboard mxn και ύστερα να διορθώσω το el:Πρότυπο:Chess diagram/τεκμηρίωση δεν τα κατάφερα γιατί όπως φαίνεται οι γνώσεις μου δεν επαρκούν και δεν θα ήθελα να καταστρέψω την δουλειά που έχετε κάνει. Ευχαριστώ. SucreRouge (talk) 16:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Η φλογέρα του Βασιλιά (στην ελληνόγλωσση ΒΠ)[edit]

Αν έχεις λίγο χρόνο διαθέσιμο, θα σου ήμουν υπόχρεως. τη φλογέρα του Βασιλιά να την μορφοποιήσεις κατα ενότητες, δηλαδή Πρόλογος, ο γιός της χήρας, Λόγος Πρώτος Dgolitsis--Dgolitsis (talk) 08:44, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done --Francois-Pier (talk) 05:40, 18 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Thank you for this edit (September 2014) and others like it. However to meet the requirements in the plagiarism guideline it is necessary to add in-line citations. If an Wikipedia article, started out as a copy of an EB1911 it may well have attracted more text since. This can make it time consuming to read the original on Wikisource and work out which is the original source. Thankfully there are a number of comparison tools that can be used. I think that the best one is Earwig (linked in the box on the right).

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October 2020[edit]

Thank you for your contributions. It seems that you may have added public domain content to one or more Wikipedia articles, such as Austin Abbott. You are welcome to import appropriate public domain content to articles, but in order to meet the Wikipedia guideline on plagiarism, such content must be fully attributed. This requires not only acknowledging the source, but acknowledging that the source is copied. There are several methods to do this described at Wikipedia:Plagiarism#Public-domain sources, including the usage of an attribution template. Please make sure that any public domain content you have already imported is fully attributed. Thank you. — Diannaa (talk) 19:21, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

By way of a contras with my last posting Earwig's Copyvio Detector gives a "Violation Possible 56.6%". Of course this can not be used mechanically and an editor need to check what is flagging the possible violation as it might be "a list of works" or "quotes" that are not subject to the need for attribution as requested in the plagiarism guideline", however in this case I think Diannaa was right. -- PBS (talk) 12:09, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation link notification for October 21[edit]

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Gustavus Abeel, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page New York.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:14, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done --Francois-Pier (talk) 06:27, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ArbCom 2020 Elections voter message[edit]

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cite BDA1906[edit]

With this edit (Revision as of 03:00, 31 October 2020 to "George Ade") you added a citation using template {{cite dictionary}} I have just completed two new specific templates to replace the need to use the general one. They are {{cite BDA1906}} and {{BDA1906}}. They fill out most of the fields for you. All you have to do is add three parameters wstitle= volume= and page=

use {{cite BDA1906}} as the standard citation just like {{cite dictionary}} but with far fewer parameters
use {{BDA1906}} if text is copied from the The Biographical Dictionary of America article into the Wikipedia article. When and where you ought to place the attribution is explained in the plagiarism guideline in the section "Copying material from free sources"

Also if a source is cited then a copy to the same source ought not to be placed in the "External links" section (see the section "references and citation" in external links guideline).

I ran the earwig copyright vio program over the two articles: Violation Unlikely 4.8%, so there was no need for you to postpend the template {{PD-notice}} to the citation. Now that I have checked that I will re-edit the page and change the citation from {{BDA1906}} to {{cite BDA1906}}

BTW this sort of custom template to link to articles on wikisource is not well documented, but there are dozens of them. A search in the template space for the name of the source will usual find one if it exists. There is a partial list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Wikisource/Citation Uniformity. I have a chaotic list on my notes page: User:PBS/Notes#List_of_PD_Templates.

-- PBS (talk) 11:58, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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You have been pruned from a list[edit]

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