User talk:Birdie
Thank you for leaving me a message.
If you have an account in the french WP, you can also write there to Birdie, I check it daily. Thanx.
I notice that you have recently moved this canton to Arrondissement of Brioude from Arrondissement of Le Puy-en-Velay. According to INSEE (here and here), this canton is in Le Puy-en-Velay. Do you have an alternative or different source of information? Kiwipete 01:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
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districts of france[edit]
Districts between 1789 & 1801 are really irrelevant. The confusion will be limited to those who are trying to discuss french local government comparative politics for the years between 1789 and 1801, which is a very very limited group Mesoso2 20:56, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I know french administrative divisions perfectly well, i also speak english perfectly well, and i know that noone uses the word "arrondissement" in English, excepy in reference to parts of paris. Look up "arrondissement" in a dictionary, it is "district" in English. I still do not see how this confuses you. Perhaps you are easily confuced. Mesoso2 21:34, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
March 2008[edit]
Before adding a category to an article, as you did to Adrienne Bailon, please make sure that the subject of the article really belongs in the category that you specified. If it has not been already, it may be removed if the category has not been deemed correct for the subject matter. Thank you. Don't add categories to articles that are not supported by the article contents. NrDg 03:44, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
As Adrienne Bailon is in the list of the French-Puerto Ricans, I've put her in the matching category. If you're not happy with this family origin, please have a talk with the contributor that put her in the list. I've no idea if it is right or wrong, I just try to put the pages in the categories they seem to belong. Gato76680 ✉ —Preceding comment was added at 22:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- Wiki itself is not classed as a reliable source of information so other wiki articles are unusable as references. Categories categorize the article. If you add information to a bio article of a personal nature it must have a reference that matched WP:BLP requirements in that article. I will remove anything that violates WP:BLP as required by that policy. --NrDg 23:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- I suggest you remove that category from any other article you have added it to as well unless there is a reference in the article that backs it up. The article you are referencing as authoritative is WP:OR original research and it itself has no references to back up the author's classification of descent being based on his surname classification. In Bailon's case her father, who she got her name from, is not even Puerto Rican. --NrDg 23:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- I'm French and interested in onomastics. Most of the names in the category are obviously french. There is no need of another reference than an onomastic book to assure that Laporte or Villard are french names beared by thousands of french peoples. Concerning Adrienne Bailon, her mother is puerto rican and her father has a name of french origin so I think she could be put in the category. I don't think you need your two parents being both french and puerto rican to be put in the french-puerto ricans category. Gato76680 ✉
- You can make a case for her father being Ecuadorian of French descent based on our current custom of patralinial naming. Her mother is likely Puerto Rican of Spanish descent but her name was not in the article. Bailon was born in the US so is not either nationality. The category is supposed to indicate direct descendants of the people from France who emigrated to Puerto Rico. Bailon has not been shown to be in this group. Second point and still the major one for categories. There has to be something in the article that talks to this. Other articles don't count. If there is a good WP:RS reference in the other article, that needs to the reference, not the article itself. Every bio fact in the article, must have a verifiable reliably sourced reference to back it up and that reference must be in that specific article, not somewhere else. If you have a book that names the specific person that is a good reference. Categorizing yourself a person based on their name is original research WP:OR and is not permitted. There can be other reasons for a person having a specific last name unrelated to patralinial descent - people can change their names to anything if they wish, rare, but possible. Also, you are leaving out a large group of people who are of French descent via the maternal line. Given time and large amounts of intermarriage it is possible that most Puerto Ricans have at least one ancestor from France making this category useless except as part of the definition of what is a Puerto Rican. --NrDg 00:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that a lot of Boricuas, including my gf, have french blood. I read it could be more than 20 %. With such a number, the category would be useless and filled with thousands of people. The list I used was Famous Puerto Ricans with French surnames. Those Boricuas with french last names are much less numerous. Of course, it is just a part of the French-Puerto Ricans. There are several other categories about the heritage of the Boricuas. I'm not too easy with the concept of heritage. As an European, we don't use those types of categories. I think they have been deleted in the french wp. Gato76680 ✉
- You can make a case for her father being Ecuadorian of French descent based on our current custom of patralinial naming. Her mother is likely Puerto Rican of Spanish descent but her name was not in the article. Bailon was born in the US so is not either nationality. The category is supposed to indicate direct descendants of the people from France who emigrated to Puerto Rico. Bailon has not been shown to be in this group. Second point and still the major one for categories. There has to be something in the article that talks to this. Other articles don't count. If there is a good WP:RS reference in the other article, that needs to the reference, not the article itself. Every bio fact in the article, must have a verifiable reliably sourced reference to back it up and that reference must be in that specific article, not somewhere else. If you have a book that names the specific person that is a good reference. Categorizing yourself a person based on their name is original research WP:OR and is not permitted. There can be other reasons for a person having a specific last name unrelated to patralinial descent - people can change their names to anything if they wish, rare, but possible. Also, you are leaving out a large group of people who are of French descent via the maternal line. Given time and large amounts of intermarriage it is possible that most Puerto Ricans have at least one ancestor from France making this category useless except as part of the definition of what is a Puerto Rican. --NrDg 00:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- I'm French and interested in onomastics. Most of the names in the category are obviously french. There is no need of another reference than an onomastic book to assure that Laporte or Villard are french names beared by thousands of french peoples. Concerning Adrienne Bailon, her mother is puerto rican and her father has a name of french origin so I think she could be put in the category. I don't think you need your two parents being both french and puerto rican to be put in the french-puerto ricans category. Gato76680 ✉
- I suggest you remove that category from any other article you have added it to as well unless there is a reference in the article that backs it up. The article you are referencing as authoritative is WP:OR original research and it itself has no references to back up the author's classification of descent being based on his surname classification. In Bailon's case her father, who she got her name from, is not even Puerto Rican. --NrDg 23:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Sylvia del Villard[edit]
Del Villard is not a French-Puerto Rican. She is Afro-Puerto Rican. Furthermore, "del" is not a French contraction for "de" and "le", "du" is. "Del" is a contraction of "de" and "el." To be entirely accurate in French, it would be du Villard. Her last name could easily be Catalan. It is really pointless because she is black. Among the African diaspora in the Americas, last names mean very little since they are inherited from slave masters. Following your line of thinking, Afro-Cuban conguero Mongo Santamaria is Spanish because his surname is Spanish. And, of course, Mike Tyson must be English because his last name is English. I am sure you see where that this erroneous form of categorizing can take us. Atentamente, --Noopinonada (talk) 00:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Rafael Ithier[edit]
I noticed that you also included Afro-Puerto Rican Rafael Ithier on the list of French-Puerto Ricans. Ithier is black. See my comments on Sylvia del Villard for further explanation.--Noopinonada (talk) 23:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- You recently wrote me the following and thereby imputed an incorrect position to me: French/black "Maybe you could be interested to know you would be probably fined if you would have written such a thing as "X isn't French, he is Black" on a french site. I think some black peoples like Rama Yade (actual State Secretary in the Fillon government), Gaston Monnerville (ex president of the Senate), Henri Salvador (singer & composer) or, amongst thousand of athlets, Marie-José Pérec or Thierry Henry would be quite surprised to learn they aren't french as they're black." Gato76680 ✉ 22:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC).
- Unfortunately, you create an argument against a straw opponent. I know full-well (it is absurd to even have to address this, in fact) that one can be black and be a French citizen, just as one can be of Italian descent, or even Sephardic Jewish and Hungarian descent (Sarkozy) and be French. As you also know, the French as an ethnic group are still very much alive and comprise the majority of France. They also give us "French" sounding surnames, like Ithier, Rousseau, Robespierre, etc. In the case of the Americas, black persons with "French" last names did not come from France, as I can only assume you must know. Rather, the names were adopted from French slave masters, just as is the case in Jamaica and the USA with English surnames. Thus, you listing black Puerto Rican Rafael Ithier as "French" makes as much sense as describing the American citizen Martin Luther King, Jr. as "English" because of his English-sounding last name. And we were furthermore speaking of race in ethnic terms, not citizenship.
- As to your statement on getting "fined," as covered above, you created an argument with the false premise regarding my supposed concept of nationality when we were most obviously talking about persons of French DESCENT in Puerto Rico. In fact, the only reason you included Ithier as a 'French-Puerto Rican" was because of his French-sounding last name. It is a fallacy to create a straw man as your opponent and then knock him down. This is most accurately described as pretending your opponent holds a certain position (which in this case was false), and proceeding to attack that position. Read up a bit more on the straw man article on Wikipedia. I am sure a brief reading on logical fallacies can cure your error. On a further note, the persons you referenced such as Thierry Henry and Henri Salvador are all of mixed race. You seem to have a very racist notion of race that makes a person "black" regardless of their other ancestries. Quite revealing. Bon chance,--Noopinonada (talk) 03:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
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