User talk:Gronk Oz

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Talk:Sairu#Move to draft namespace?[edit]

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Sairu#Move to draft namespace?. Thanks. Anarchyte 06:13, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Request for an article[edit]

Hi i have requested for an article Its not been picked by any editor yet. What can i do next? MelitaFernandes (talk) 10:10, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello MelitaFernandes. I don't have any personal experience with the article request process, so I have copied your question to Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions in the hope that an editor there can be more help.--Gronk Oz (talk) 13:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Draft Feargus Hetherington[edit]

Many thanks indeed for your help. I haven't absorbed it all yet but I thoroughly cheered. I was in despair. Will communicate later if I can. I even find it difficult getting round the messaging system! One minute it's there - the next it's not. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 15:45, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Most grateful[edit]

Red Kitten 01.jpg

The sun is shining again!

Balquhidder2013 (talk) 15:48, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Refs etc[edit]

A new lease of life you've given me.

I decided to create a discography section. I would be grateful if you would at it for me. I deleted a couple of links and added one new one.

I'll try to check all links this evening.

Thanks again. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 17:03, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi again, Balquhidder2013. I'm not sure quite what you're asking for here. I have just done a little basic formatting to make it a bulletted list, which seems to be the common format for such discobraphies. You should also provide sources for, or remove, subjective statements like "This reflects Hetherington's interest in exploring..." or "Hetherington's interest in traditional Scottish music and Jazz has involved him in recordings of other genre". Even if they are sourced, they probably should go into the body of the article rather than in the discography; that is normally just a list of works.--Gronk Oz (talk) 20:19, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks again[edit]

Trophy.png Thanks again
The sun is still shining! Balquhidder2013 (talk) 17:57, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Refs etc[edit]

Thanks again for all your help. There are three refs which need 'a bit of help'!

8. ... needs to have some indication to click 'Past Concerts'. There's no specific address for this page

9. ... needs 'Concerts' which then shows 'Past Concerts'

10. ... 'Solo instruments' and 'Chamber' on 'Works' menu

I much appreciate your help. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 19:15, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I learn something every day ... this is the first time I have come across the situation of citing a web page which has multiple sections but keeps the same URL. I hope what I have done there is acceptable: I used the "at" parameter to describe it as "Concerts" section, etc. For number 10, that is two separate refs; one for Solo and one for Chamber. Meanwhile, I see that an "A-team" of experienced editors was also working on the article (that can happen sometimes) and in particular Theroadislong was able to link specifically to the "Past Concerts" section of Number 8. I hope this has helped.--Gronk Oz (talk) 21:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

A kitten for you![edit]

Kitten (06) by Ron.jpg

Thanks for help

Balquhidder2013 (talk) 21:02, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

A kitten for you![edit]

Young cats.jpg

Thanks for help

Balquhidder2013 (talk) 21:03, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Chamber ref[edit]

Thanks for your note. I can't find a ref on the St Andrews's website for Chamber Music. He apparently teaches three quartets made up of string students who have won music scholarships. What can I do? Balquhidder2013 (talk) 21:09, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

The reference you have there (number 2) says "[St Andrews Chamber Orchestra] is conducted by the University's Director of Music, Michael Downes, Tom Wilkinson and Bede Williams, with coaching from Feargus Hetherington (who also leads the orchestra)." So it is good for what is in the article currently. It seems to me that the additional information about teaching the other three quartets is probably less significant, supported by the University not mentioning it on this page. The general rule in Wikipedia - frustrating as it is - is to leave it out if it can't be verified.--Gronk Oz (talk) 21:28, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


I can't believe it! Do you mean that's it? I'm shaking! Balquhidder2013 (talk) 21:12, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not sure what I have said or done to bring on such a response. Nothing in Wikipedia is ever "finished", and there are always improvements to be made. It will be up to the reviewer when the draft is submitted to determine whether it is ready to promote to the Article space.--Gronk Oz (talk) 21:31, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

A kitten for you![edit]

Young cats.jpg

So grateful

Balquhidder2013 (talk) 21:23, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Some baklava for you![edit]

Baklava - Turkish special, 80-ply.JPEG I'm sure you need some after all your hard work. Many thanks again. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 09:10, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Some baklava for you![edit]

Baklava - Turkish special, 80-ply.JPEG Life must go on. Many thanks. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 09:13, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Verification of Awards[edit]

I'm still trying to find these. The Caird Trust lists only those from 2005 (I need something earlier). I'm still hoping to track Creative Scotland down in their Archives (2011 and 2012). As Musicians Benevolent Fund has now changed it might not be possible to access their archives for 2010 - but I'll try. Are they best omitted for them moment? To submit do I 'move' it to 'Wikipedia'?

In trepidation Balquhidder2013 (talk) 11:16, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Balquhidder2013. There are two parts to this question: firstly, how to progress the article from Draft space to Article space. This is called the "Articles for Creation" (AfC) process, and it involves the article being reviewed by ... well, by a reviewer. However, I have not been involved with that process and I could not figure it out from the instructions so I have asked the question at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk#14:46:15.2C_13_January_2016_review_of_draft_by_Gronk_Oz. Hopefully, we will have an answer soon; I expect the process is pretty straightforward.
Secondly, an article does not have to be perfect to be accepted at AfC. There are some mandatory things, and I think they are all covered - but like I said I am not a reviewer. So I recommend leaving the awards in place, and leaving the "citation needed" tag in place so that you or some other editor can fill in those later. The reviewer will let you know if there are any other problems, and you will get plenty of opportunity to address them if there are. No need for trepidation, just keep on going... --Gronk Oz (talk) 14:55, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Well, that was quick Balquhidder2013. Wiae answered that question by submitting your draft for review. There is a significant backlog, so reviews can take a week or more. In the meantime, you are welcome to continue improving the article if you like.--Gronk Oz (talk) 15:09, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Awards etc[edit]

Many thanks for all that.

Re awards: Creative Scotland website confirms awards in April 2012 (12-01150) and April 2013 (13-02156) but only by entering the date which then produces a spread sheet. See Is there any way of dealing with that?

Musicians Benevolent Fund never give details publicly about funding but would happily produce an email of confirmation! That award was in 2011.

The Caird Trust online awards list only goes back ten years. They have confirmed to me that he won an award in 2001 and 2002 (towards studies abroad, i.e. Cleveland Institute of Music.)

Natural Record Studio. I have attempted to enter a link for them in my 'old way' (for what it's worth) as they've folded but it lists their CDs

You'll be hoping it's accepted so that you can get rid of me! I have half-committed myself to doing a couple of others. Oh dear! They might be easier.

Thanks again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Balquhidder2013 (talkcontribs)

Once you see your article up there in the "real world", I think you'll be surprised how quickly you want to tackle another one. And yes, it gets easier.
Creative Scotland
I have added the reference for April 2012. However, when I checked April 2013 he was not on that spreadsheet. I searched the site for "Heatherington" and the only hit was on that spreadsheet for April 2012. So I have just left it at that one.
Musicians Benevolent Fund
We can't really use their email, because it is not verifiable by a reader. So I would be inclined to leave the statement there unless somebody challenges it.
By the way, there is a Wikipedia policy covering that, at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons, which says "We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." I don't see this material as contentious, so I would leave it unless somebody disputes it.
Caird Trust
Ditto. If they expand their list later, it can be added then.
Natural Record Studio
I'm not sure what your "old way" is, but it has worked fine. Even though the company has closed down, the remaining web site still has the information to support the statements in this article. However, who knows how long that website will be around for. So I used the WebCite archive site ( to archive a copy of the site as it is now, and link it to your citation. Now even if the original is lost, your article will be secure.
Meanwhile, your major focus should be to fix the close paraphrasing from his own bio page - see the note I left on your User page. That should take precedence over these.--Gronk Oz (talk) 16:29, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Ah, now I see what you meant by the "old way". But another editor, David Biddulph, had jumped in and fixed the bare URLs before I saw it. This is Wikipedia at its best; editors working together to produce the best result.--Gronk Oz (talk) 16:32, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
Again - thanks Balquhidder2013 (talk) 15:51, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

WOW thanks again[edit]

Thanks again for all that. The problem with the Creative Scotland award is that his name is not spelt correctly on one of them. 2012 is 12-01150 and 2013 is 13-02156.

I'm not sure what you mean by his biog? Do you mean on his own website? I haven't seen a message. I'll check again. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 16:49, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

No, not his blog - it is the biography that he has on his web site - I put the link on your Talk page.--Gronk Oz (talk) 16:52, 13 January 2016 (UTC)


OOps! I had though his biog was a good starting point. I didn't realise there was a problem. Thanks so much for that I'll work on it shortly. Oh dear! Nothing is ever easy, is it?

Thanks again.Balquhidder2013 (talk) 17:05, 13 January 2016 (UTC)


Thanks for that! I've done some work on it and will look at it again tomorrow.

I have another link - a pdf - for the Kentigern. I had it in originally and then removed it. It supports the the other. What do you think? I'm still in trepidation of these links and afraid to touch any! Here it is: Balquhidder2013 (talk) 19:32, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done--Gronk Oz (talk) 02:24, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

The best[edit]

Cute grey kitten.jpg

to the end ...

Balquhidder2013 (talk) 19:34, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

More help please[edit]

I've been trying to insert another link but failed abysmally. See 15.

For Heisenberg (leadership) there is a page on their website showing him leading but no mention of his name. Could it go in? No matter if not. He features in both those photos.

Once again - my gratitude forever!Balquhidder2013 (talk) 12:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Balquhidder2013 Photos like that are rarely usable as a reference, largely due to the difficulty of establishing their origin, etc. I wouldn't worry about it at this stage.--Gronk Oz (talk) 13:40, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Re earlier message[edit]

See message from theroadislong! The review is visible by scrolling down. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 13:04, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry Balquhidder2013 - I don't know what "earlier message" you're talking about. I don't have any messages from theroadislong on my talk page. I'm not sure what review you are referring to - please provide the link.--Gronk Oz (talk) 13:42, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Link etc[edit]

On Draft/Revision history 'I had (cur | prev) 12:45, 14 January 2016‎ Theroadislong (talk | contribs)‎ . . (15,788 bytes) (+23)‎ . . (no mention of this in the link and in any case we can't use blog posts ar) (undo | thank)'

I'm just about to see what you've managed for me. Many thanks Balquhidder2013 (talk) 14:46, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Balquhidder2013, that wasn't a review, it was just the edit summary that Theroadislong put when he added the "Failed verification" tag for the following statement: "To celebrate composer Eddie McGuire's 65th birthday and subsequently at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe he was invited to perform McGuire's Rant for solo violin." This tag was put there because while that reference talks about him performing the Rant at the Edinburgh Fringe, it does not actually say that he performed it elsewhere, nor that he was invited - for all we know he may have organized it himself. I'm not saying that he did, just that we can't tell from the reference. By the way, I changed the URL on that reference so it points to the specific section on the page, rather than the whole page. Hope this helps.--Gronk Oz (talk) 15:35, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


Yes, that's great thanks. 'no citation' is now indicated but it is mentioned under the title given 7 blogs down. What do you thinK? Balquhidder2013 (talk) 14:52, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Balquhidder2013 I'm not sure what this is about - what's "great"? Please try to give me some context on these messages so I can follow what they are about. Looking at Draft:Feargus Hetherington, I can see one tag for "citation needed" at the end of the lead paragraph, and one "not in citation given" at the end of "Unaccompanied recitals". Were you referring to one of these? Or something else?--Gronk Oz (talk) 15:50, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

A kitten for you![edit]


You must be tired of kittens by now but Barnstar doesn't mean much to me and burgers are out. So please bear with kittens. I would prefer to insert trophies but don't know how.

Balquhidder2013 (talk) 14:56, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

No need; you'll have me blushing. Let's resolve the Notability issue first, on Draft_talk:Feargus_Hetherington.--Gronk Oz (talk) 15:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Creative Scotland[edit]

I meant to say that the second spreadsheet link doesn't work. Thanks. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 15:23, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done That was my fault - instead of getting the second URL, I just copied the first one and (I thought) changed it as needed. Serves me right for being lazy and then compounding the problem by not testing it after I put it there. Sorry for the inconvenience, Balquhidder2013. --Gronk Oz (talk) 15:59, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh dear[edit]

I tried to respond to the Notability question (on which you had kindly spent a lot of time) but I now can't find either Theroadislong or your contribution let alone my reply! Have you received it? Balquhidder2013 (talk) 17:02, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, Balquhidder2013, your obviously heart-felt response is there, at Draft talk:Feargus Hetherington. I think you make your case well, now it needs to be judged against the criteria for including articles on musicians in Wikipedia. I encourage you to stay engaged in the discussion, even though it may be difficult, to be sure the article gets every fair chance and is assessed on its merits. For instance, your point about being the principle classical violinist in Scotland is a good one, as long as it can be supported by a reference. If there are any other interviews or significant coverage in reliable publications, then please list them on that Talk page even if you can't weave them into the article at this time; they will help in determining notability.--Gronk Oz (talk) 00:01, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Please help[edit]

First I would be grateful if you would insert the ref in first sentence for me? There are other very demoralising problems too.Balquhidder2013 (talk) 19:40, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

What reference would you like inserted into the first sentence?--Gronk Oz (talk) 00:03, 15 January 2016 (UTC)


See comments from Theroadislong. Perhaps add the link to external links for now. I think I'll have to give up for obvious reasonsBalquhidder2013 (talk) 19:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Okay, Balquhidder2013, that's not a problem. I can see his/her point: the lede is supposed to be a short summary of what is in the body of the article. So I created a new (as yet incomplete) section on Education, and put your information to there. It still needs work; I think it would be better to move the detailed description of his degree studies into this new section and put a shortened version in the lede. However, the best use of time now is to gather evidence on the Notability question: Wikipedia articles live or die on their notability, which depends on coverage. By the way, that coverage does not necessarily have to be online; for example if The Strad article is not available online, it could still be cited if it is verified and all the details are available.--Gronk Oz (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2016 (UTC)


Principal Classical Violinist in Scotland? That would be Nicola Benedetti who is one of the leading violinists on the world scene. I meant probably best known and in demand freelance violinist. I've got hold of a huge drawer full of concert programmes dating back to student days. He's clearly in huge demand but how do I prove that? The other aspect is versatility. Very few violinists are trained to or can lead orchestras. He has chosen not to go down the professional orchestral road. A varied career suits him. The orchestras he leads are usually made up of professionals - some from the big, named orchestras - but doing 'extra work' and put together for a particular piece of work. But how can I prove anything with a crate full of programmes - and I don't even have them all? I suppose everything I add will be deleted. Mission impossible. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 18:25, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Balquhidder2013, it's obvious that you have very detailed knowledge of Feargus' background and accomplishments, but Wikipedia insists that articles are built on independently verifiable information, most of which should come from secondary sources. The versatility to lead orchestras and perform solo may well be exceptional, but the article need to cite where a respected newspaper or journal or some independent source has written about that. Being in demand is great, but where has that been written about, or shown by CD sales . I think the best approach is to look through the notability criteria for musicians at WP:NMUSIC then focus on providing whatever independent information you can find to build a case for those criteria. There is the flexibility of having some time to do that now.--Gronk Oz (talk) 01:24, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

The Begging Bowl again[edit]

I've added quite a bit. Perhaps you would let me know what you think. I've also added a few links but my hands begin to shake as soon as I try to complete them. I would be grateful for your help again.Balquhidder2013 (talk) 20:25, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

You have been busy, Balquhidder2013. Mostly, I like the addition of dates to the education section; maybe it's just me, but that detail helps to knit the story together. Now it needs references; I'm not sure how I can help there because I don't know what the references are. If you read this information somewhere, then say where.--Gronk Oz (talk) 01:35, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done Sorry, I'm a bit slow sometimes - I found the refs you put in, and filled them out. I particularly like the "Sherlock Holmes" one; it is both nicely written and well referenced.--Gronk Oz (talk) 01:52, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Also ...[edit]

I also meant to ask if you could remove the McAllister advert from top of Scotsman review?Balquhidder2013 (talk) 20:30, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

That is on McAllister's own website, so he controls what is there.--Gronk Oz (talk) 02:01, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Much appreciated[edit]

Erdbeerteller01.jpg Many thanks once again. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 08:49, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

While I think of it![edit]

Apologies but I expect I'll need a lot more help. Could you replace the Scotsman article on a Matthew McAllister page with the same on original page - that misses out the promotional bit (it's toward the end of collaborations). Many thanks Balquhidder2013 (talk) 11:18, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Balquhidder2013 - it was just a matter of replacing the address after the "URL=". I notice that you also added a bunch of other bare URLs so I converted those as well. You can do that yourself; there is nice, short demonstration on YouTube here. I also did a bit of Wiki-standard formatting.--Gronk Oz (talk) 10:01, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Refs & Thanks[edit]

I'm so grateful. Yes, I should try to do the links but I get nervous and my hand shakes having had such a reaction to my early attempts! I have very shaky hands at the best of times but when nervous they make some things difficult (condition = 'essential tremors' made worse by nerve damage from two broken wrists from falling on ice a few years ago). But sorry for putting you to the bother. When I checked this morning the new Scotsman link didn't work so a reversion to might be necessary. However, the new one works when I insert it in my browser:

I'm off to a concert soon (but not given by the subject) and I'm meant to go to another tonight but I'll decide later. So you might have some peace today!

Ever gratefulBalquhidder2013 (talk) 12:25, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done I don't know how I did that; I put an extra underscore onto the end of the URL. Fixed now. I never realized you were being literal about your hands shaking; I thought it was just a way of saying you were nervious - sorry to hear about that problem. You might find it helps to work in your sandbox (see the link near top right of the screen). That way you can experiment with it and have a few attempts until you're happy with the result, then copy it across to the live article. So now ... enjoy the concert!--Gronk Oz (talk) 16:33, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks so much[edit]

Thanks so much again. Yes, I must not take advantage of your kindness and try harder. The concert was great thanks. An interesting combination of instruments - Flute, viola and harp.Balquhidder2013 (talk) 19:48, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

More queries[edit]

I presume you can see David Biddulph's comments on some of my refs. I deleted what I think are 'unsupported' links but I've left Ref 8 and 29 as they are web pages from the relevant ensembles. Is that OK? There is also a 'not in citation given' note re Eddie McGuire still in place. Is it safe for me to delete that? You must be truly fed-up with me. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 11:43, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

More trouble![edit]

Something has gone awry with my Draft at the end with references. I don't mean the incomplete references which I will try to tackle later.

I notice that all references to radio have been deleted? Do you think this was intentional? Never ending, eh? Balquhidder2013 (talk) 17:03, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Please help again[edit]

So sorry to bother you but I'm getting into a total pickle. I've been trying to insert a ref under Isle of Cumbrae but I've now got entangled with the Gavin Brady one which I was trying to remove. I think i've been at it for a couple of hours. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 19:50, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Draft:Feargus Hetherington[edit]

Hello again, Balquhidder2013. I didn't get to do anything on this yesterday (gotta have a life some time), and there have been so many edits since then that I'm not sure which of your issues are still current. I notice that a couple of other helpers have been pitching in too; perhaps they were watching the discussion here or just monitoring the page. In any case, between you and them it looks like many of the problems you mentioned have been sorted. The article is continuing to improve. Just a couple of minor comments:

  1. Don't panic. There is no problem with having a couple of "maintenance tags" (as they are called) in the article. Every Wikipedia article is a work in progress, and these tags are used to identify areas to work on. They are not a criticism of the article, nor the editor, nor the subject - they are just a "to do list". So there might be the occasional {{citation needed}} or similar, and they can be addressed over time.
  2. Similarly, the other editor's "comments" are not criticisms; in the main, they are just describing what they're changing when they make an edit. Edit summaries are not required, but it is a very good habit to get into, especially when multiple people are working on an article. So for example in this edit, which David Biddulph commented with "POV, unsourced, looks like PROMOTION", that is explaining why he removed the text that said "whose music career is wide-ranging and diverse" from the end of the first sentence. And I agree with him; we want to avoid giving an opinion about whether it is wide-ranging or diverse. That is not for Wikipedia to comment on. The nearest we can come is if we quote what a reviewer says, and then we need to make a clear distinction that this is the reviewer's opinion, not Wikipedia's.
  3. I'm reluctant to go back through so many past versions to see what "radio" references were removed; were they important, to provide support for a significant statement? Remember, the entire history is there so we can always get something back if it turns out that it is needed.
  4. I see you have added some extra material to the Education section, including prizes he won, but without any references. I have not tagged it (yet); where did that information come from?
  5. I found a reference for the scholarship quartet you mentioned earlier, so I put that into the "Teaching and coaching" section. I did not actually mention the scholarship aspect, because that is nothing to do with him.
  6. One overall matter - I am still concerned with notability. There are plenty of references to verify that he performed and so on - but not many that discuss what the reaction was, or how influential he has been. So keep your eyes open for anything like that. Newspaper or magazine articles that talk about him, or radio or television where they talk about him. Prizes are also good, because that is somebody independent giving their assessment of him.

So in summary, it looks good, would benefit from some references to support the statements in the Education section, and also to show notability. Of course, when it gets reviewed they may have different comments.--Gronk Oz (talk) 13:31, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Recent help[edit]

Many thanks for recent help. Is it sufficient to refer to 'Programme' as evidence? When Choral work is involved publicity usually names the conductor, orchestra, choir and soloists without naming the leader of the orchestra so that means giving the concert link won't be acceptable? (For example I could find the Amicus link).

Is it acceptable to put supporting information like 'Programme + date in as a footnote to keep text neater?

I'm not sure which Courier article you are referring to under Orchestra? Balquhidder2013 (talk) 14:10, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi again, Balquhidder2013. I'm going to ping @Theroadislong: and @David Biddulph: on this one, because they have both been helping with this article and may have more perspective to offer. My first suggestion is that information which is only supported by a programme, such as who led the orchestra for a particular performance, is probably at a lower level of detail than normally belongs in an encyclopaedia. We don't need to know all about every time he has been on stage, and too much detail makes the article cluttered and hard to see what is pertinent. It is better to have just the highlights and enough for the reader to understand the breadth of his career. A few well-supported statements are better than a lot of poorly supported stuff. Adopt the old saying "if in doubt, leave it out."
To the question of what references are acceptable: remember that Wikipedia's requirements for verifiability are especially stringent for a biography of a living person. There is a good quote at the guideline WP:QUESTIONABLE: "Reliable sources must be strong enough to support the claim. A lightweight source may sometimes be acceptable for a lightweight claim, but never for an extraordinary claim." If the only source is a hard-copy program, then I struggle to see how that could be verifiable. Wikipedia does not even allow primary sources like "trial transcripts and other court records", so a program would be very questionable. At a minimum it would need to have all the normal information for the citation (title, date, publisher, etc), but I think it would probably be better to leave it out. If you think there is a really strong case for one in a particular case, let's discuss it first.
Finally, the Courier reference is currently number 35: "Fraser, Garry (12 March 2015). "(unknown title)". The Courier (Dundee, UK). , cited in "Reviews". Heisenberg Ensemble. 2015. Retrieved 8 January 2016."--Gronk Oz (talk) 01:30, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Comments on Draft Feargus Hetherington[edit]

Many thanks for these and for taking so much time over this. Yes, other bits and pieces have been sorted.

I'm really trying to prove notability by identifying how he's in demand from all quarters. It's very difficult to find reviews partly because Scotland has to my knowledge only three newspapers that can be bothered with classical music - The Herald, The Scotsman and The Courier (east coast only) and with these there are so many concerts every week they mainly focus on international soloists performing with major orchestras. The Tabloids don't bother. Apart from any other motive I really want it to be seen that Classical music is very vibrant in Scotland with Scottish musicians (and not just traditional musicians with whom he often plays as well). It is important that it can be seen that Scottish performers don't have to be involved in the London scene to contribute to the musical life of a country. Most orchestral players here in the main orchestras are not Scottish! I think I'll need my soapbox! Sorry about that. But back to the point. Online reviewing and websites are fairly recent and not all have saved material. How often were newspaper cutting saved? Not very often as far as I can tell.

Re 2. I've never been able to work out what text 'POV' etc referred to. Now I know. I hadn't even realised the words you mentioned had been deleted.

Re. 3. It was a list of radio stations he has appeared on but of course I can't track down the evidence at this stage years later. Ohio, Polish, BBC Scotland, BBC 3 etc)

Re. 4. Education: this was from a box of certificates and programmes I managed to get hold of. I'm aware that there are many more but I haven't managed to get my hands on them yet.

Re. 5. Thanks for the additional reference. Much appreciated as that supports 'chamber music'.

Re. 6. Education is difficult to support as the various institutions don't have records online. As for 'Notability' I feel confident it is there in small doses. He simply would not be invited to participate in these events if he wasn't 'notable'. I have heard him described as Scotland's 'best known' violinist. Not true of course (Nicola Benedetti on the world scene). But it is an opinion of some perhaps but that's impossible to prove either way. Being in demand should really count for a lot in my view.

Oh dear. I think it's a lost cause. I'll continue my search. But many thanks indeed. It's very good of you to up so much of your time. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 16:18, 20 January 2016 (UTC)


I have received some newspaper cuttings and I've added some quotes. Many are without dates. It's a pity they can't be web links. If you have further advice it would be welcome. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 20:38, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Cuttings etc.[edit]

Thanks again. I presume you've seen the latest editorial comments. I'll probably remove some material later. As it's old I hadn't at the outset wanted to delve into that era - but then others have. I've even seen Facebook as supporting evidence and wiki links creating a non-existent orchestra, e.g. something like GlasgowPhilharmonia for Glasgow Philharmonia (an orchestra that doesn't exist). But I agree, strict rules must be adhered to. Have a good day.Balquhidder2013 (talk) 09:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Dear sir what,s up?[edit]

I want to Create a article on Wikipedia can you help me or show up! How to Create a Strong article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nijamahmed (talkcontribs) 14:32, 21 January 2016 (UTC)


Nice to know that you are still there for me! Why did I ever embark on this? Balquhidder2013 (talk) 09:33, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Balquhidder2013 we all ask ourselves that sometimes. But it doesn't have to be an all-consuming job; part of the trick is knowing when to walk away, at least for a while. Sometimes I have astonished myself by the number of changes I have made which come back to where I started: it reminds me of the old saying attributed to Oscar Wilde "I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again."--Gronk Oz (talk) 12:03, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Oscar Wilde[edit]

I like that. And I'm a great fan of his! Hard to know what to do. Just now I'm going to walk my dog in 70 to 90 miles an hour gales! I'll think twice before embarking on other profiles. Still, I want the talent of young Scottish artists to be recognised and for folk to see that there is talent outside of London. Thanks again Balquhidder2013 (talk) 12:34, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Balquhidder2013, walking the dog is a great idea, assuming he/she/it is willing to go out in those conditions. A bit of fresh air helps to clear the head. And you're always free to take a break before you choose whether to do another article. If you do, I recommend starting the process by collecting good references before you even decide whether to write the article or not. If you can't find a stack of solid reference

s, you might wish to look for a different article...--Gronk Oz (talk) 12:40, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Choosing someone who is already world famous goes against the grain - but there is one I might consider. Why he's not already on it beats me. Just as the storm nearly has (but not the dog). And it's now sleeting. Even the geese which had taken refuge in a nearby field for days have disappeared. I've sent a help note to Classical Music Talk as recommended by Jodi but I think I should leave it and watch out for forthcoming reviews (if it's turned down as it probably will). But I'm a Dubliner like Oscar Wilde. Do I give up? Feel free to delete all this!Balquhidder2013 (talk) 15:06, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Get the strawberries and cream out![edit]

Have you seen the article of the year? After all this time. It's really down to its bare bones and doesn't portray the person as I envisaged. But someone else can do that.

Many thanks for your support and your time. I'll take a break before trying another. I hope you're not in gale force winds as we are. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 09:16, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Aha - I see now, it has been moved to "mainspace"! Congratulations, Balquhidder2013. It is so very hard to write about somebody you know or admire, as you have seen. It's so much easier to be objective when the person is a stranger. But not as much fun... --Gronk Oz (talk) 14:52, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Tell me please. Are these messages viewed by other editors? Balquhidder2013 (talk) 15:36, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Do you mean these messages here on my Talk page, Balquhidder2013? I don't know, but they could be. Any editor can see the messages on any other editor's Talk pages.--Gronk Oz (talk) 15:38, 2 February 2016 (UTC) Would you mind looking at my view history page for today (not Jodi) especially 9.09 this morning. Balquhidder2013 (talk) 16:57, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

A bowl of strawberries for you![edit]

Erdbeerteller01.jpg Don't forget the cream! Balquhidder2013 (talk) 09:17, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Daniel T. Pickett III Article Rewrite and Corrections[edit]


I have rewritten the entire Daniel T. Pickett article and everything should be corrected now. Thanks for letting me know about the issues. If you could please remove the copy/paste tag after you review it I would appreciate it. Thanks again.

Jeffreykenneth79 (talk) 17:21, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Hello, Jeffreykenneth79. You have been busy; this hardly looks like the same article. I am happy to see that you took the copyright notice seriously, and I have removed the {{copypaste}} tag from the article. There are still a few closely paraphrased passages (such as "responsible for integrating the retail delivery platforms and networks of several acquisitions over a five year period" vs "responsible for integrating the retail delivery platforms and networks of more than a dozen acquisitions over a five year period") but I don't think they are bad enough to need a tag.
Also, the tone of the article has been improved a lot - it is more neutral in place of the promotional approach it had previously.
Finally, I see that you have expanded the references a lot. I still think it leans a little bit too heavily on self-published and primary sources, and would benefit from more detailed coverage in secondary sources. The article needs to focus on what independent reliable sources say about him, not what he says about himself (for example, in the interview, which is referenced seven times). That's not a show-stopper, but something to keep in mind for future improvement. I have cleaned up the broken references and associated formatting. I have not checked all of them, but I came across a couple dead links (tagged) which should be fixed if possible. It would be good to check each link to be sure they work, but I don't have the time; I don't want to be late for my appointment with the dentist.
So to summarize - congratulations on the improvement you have made. The next steps are to check the references are not dead, and continue the never-ending search for good secondary sources. Good luck! --Gronk Oz (talk) 23:45, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Link edit[edit]

Could you help once again. I came across a newspaper cutting of the Heisenberg review. The missing heading was on it: "Music Review by Garry Fraser". I tried to insert this but please see comment on History page. Is it possible for you to repair this. See also the 'disambiguation' note on CD recording Ness. I've put the CD name in. You had originally sorted out the link for me but it was removed. Should it go back in? It was

Never ending eh? Balquhidder2013 (talk) 19:03, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Yep, Wikipedia will never be finished, Balquhidder2013. The Heisenberg reference looks okay - I'm not sure what you want to change there. As for the disambiguation tag, it's not about the CD - it is because there are a lot of people named Gareth Williams (check that link to see the list). I checked each of the three musicians' articles and none of them mentions this recording, so you need to decide which one you mean.--Gronk Oz (talk) 02:01, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
I see what you mean. It's the Irish composer but Scottish based. The reason is that his website it greatly out of date. He's composed a lot since then judging by a recent programme for his hugely successful opera 'Hirda'. Should I try updating it? Trepidation. The composition 'Ness is listed on and It was a major project which led to a performance on BBC Ulster etc. If the Heisenberg link is OK why is another editor objecting to it (see History page. Ever grateful Balquhidder2013 (talk) 09:28, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi, Balquhidder2013. Once again, I need to ask you to be more specific when you ask a question - I can't tell which edit are you talking about that relates to Heisenberg. Please be clear about which edit you mean. I looked through every single edit since it was moved into mainspace, and none of them touches that reference. The only change I can find anywhere near it is the one at 16:53, 2 February 2016‎ by Theroadislong with the comment "+‎Solo: incorrect link and is a review by The Dundee Courier adding to his notability?" Is that the one you mean? If so, it did not touch the reference, rather it fixed a problem with the name of the newspaper that was in the sentence before it. And of course, Hetherington's notability is still under question so coverage in a major national paper would be preferred - but you have to go with what you have.
I took care of the disambiguation - once you know which one is the right Gareth Williams it is just a matter of changing [[Gareth Williams]] to [[Gareth Williams (compposer)|]].--Gronk Oz (talk) 14:16, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks. I'm sorry for being such a nuisance. Yes, that was the one. Those reviews should not be in question. It has long ceased to be the Dundee Courier - it's the 'Courier' and covers the east coast - Tayside, Kinross and Fife in particular. Apart from the Herald and The Scotsman it is the only newspaper in Scotland with a Classical Reviewer whose reviews are highly regarded even by the major orchestras. He reviews Perth Concert Hall, The Younger Hall, The Byers Theatre etc to name but a few venues with classical music in the east of Scotland. Sometimes he reviews concerts in Edinburgh. I don't think it should be underestimated. And thanks also for sorting the other problem.Balquhidder2013 (talk) 15:18, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it is cited as The Courier (Dundee, UK), which seens correct - the title of the work is The Courier and it is published in Dundee. So referring to it as "The Dundee Courier" was a bit of shorthand, but understandable.--Gronk Oz (talk) 22:20, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Reference errors on 2 February[edit]

Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that an edit performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. It is as follows:

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, ReferenceBot (talk) 00:18, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

can't find Tea House response[edit]

You apparently responded to my query about activating old talk page participants, but I can't find it in Tea House. What am I doing wrong? Thanks.TBR-qed (talk) 15:01, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi there, TBR-qed. Teahouse discussions get archived quite frequently, and this is what happened here. That discussion can now be found at Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive_447#reviving_old_talk_threads. I hope it helps; I had sorta hoped that another editor might chip in with their own suggestions too but that didn't happen this time. So if you have any questions, please feel free to ask... --Gronk Oz (talk) 15:09, 4 February 2016 (UTC)