User talk:Grutness

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Please add new discussions at the bottom of the page!

I've moved earlier discussions to archive pages (as listed below). A few of the items I've simply got rid of - if I have, it's simply that it was trivial and/or stuff which has been dealt with, and is therefore no longer relevant. The deletion is not a reflection of my opinion of the writers!


10/04-01/05 02/05 03-04/05 04-05/05
05/05 06/05 07/05 07/05
08/05 09/05: 1 09/05: 2 10/05
11/05 12/05 01/06 02/06
03-04/06 05-06/06 07-08/06 09-10/06
11-12/06 01/07 02-03/07 04-05/07
06/07 07-08/07 09-10/07 11-12/07
01-02/08 03-04/08 05/08 06-07/08
08-09/08 10/08 11-12/08 01/09
02-03/09 04-05/09 06-07/09 08/09-6 Jan 2010
01-06/10 07-11/10 12/10-02/11 03-12/11
2012 01-06/13 07-12/13 2014
2015 2016 01-09/2017 10-12/2017*
2018* * * *

* = still to archive

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On this day, 13 years ago...[edit]

Balloons-aj.svg Hey, Grutness. I'd like to wish you a wonderful First Edit Day on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee!
Have a great day!
Lepricavark (talk) 02:37, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you! Grutness...wha? 03:05, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Stock and Station Agents[edit]

Hi Grutness. Watching these things with interest. I'd just like to point out that the difference between these individuals and Stock and Station agencies is that these people owned the stock and station agency businesses. Somehow a split has developed between a business owned by an individual and a business owned by an incorporated body. It isn't real. You too may have noticed the woolly-minded people reorganising categories of woolly things don't know what they are categorising about. Should we discuss this? Regards, 04:59, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Maybe... most of the people I've added to the "stock and station agent" categories either founded agencies (usually family businesses) which later became incorporated, or actually worked on the land as agents pure and simple. Certainly nowadays most S&SA's are incorporated, sometimes publicly listed, companies - and it's these companies that you'll find in the "agency" categories - but I'd say most of the people were working in the late 19th/early 20th centuries when a lot of the firms were small and privately run. I still think these categories have a worthy place on Wikipedia. I think that part of the problem is that the nominator (Marcocapelle) doesn't come from an agriculture-dominant country like NZ or Australia where these jobs are fairly high profile rural jobs. Certainly in the 19th century a lot of politicians got their first foothold as businesspeople working as stock and station agents, because it was a prominent profession. I'd understand it though if the categories failed to survive. Grutness...wha? 11:00, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't want to start a further argument but which are the ones you have added "actually worked on the land as agents pure and simple". You seem to have an interesting view of stock agents. Maybe we can go through your instances and consider them? Sorry if I may sound startled but I am. Regards, Eddaido (talk) 11:11, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
This puzzled me greatly too "Certainly in the 19th century a lot of politicians got their first foothold as businesspeople working as stock and station agents, because it was a prominent profession" Eddaido (talk) 11:17, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, picking at random, people like David John Gunn, Archibald Hawke, Alister Hopkinson, Patrick Grace (politician), Arthur Grimm, Richard Jones (New South Wales politician, born 1843), and James Armour Johnstone. I'm not so sure why the other part puzzles you, it's a simple fact. Many stock and station agents later became partners in the businesses they were employed by. From there, having shown business acumen and being widely known by the local farming community, it was only a small step to being chosen to run for office. Grutness...wha? 11:23, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
James Armour Johnstone is a perfect example. He started off as an office boy in a stock and station agency, working his way up to agent. A few years later he was offered a partnership in the company. Richard Jones (New South Wales politician, born 1843) is another example. He started off as a stock and station agent, and eventually became a company director before being appointed to the NSW legislature. Grutness...wha? 11:38, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Well many artists painted fences (or did other things) before they became artists. Are they known for painting fences or being an artist? Until tomorrow. Regards, Eddaido (talk) 11:25, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
In most case, they are famous for being artists. But if their work painting fences led to them becoming recognised as artists, then they should be categorised as both, since both are important to their notability. Jean-Michel Basquiat and Keith Haring are categorised as graffiti artists, because it was through that that they moved on to become recognised as "high-art" artists. Similarly, if someone becomes a politician on the back of their time as a stock and station agent, they should be recognised for both. Look at it this way - is Donald Trump only listed as a US President, or is he also listed as a businessman? One led to the other - you don't simply de-categorise him from one because he rose to higher prominence. The real questions are (a) was being a stock and station agent important to their notability, and (b) would it be useful to people searching for articles to know who was a stock and station agent? The answer to (a) is undoubtedly yes - most of them would not have risen to prominence if not for their work as agents. As to (b), that is a bit more hazy. But I'd say it is no more or less useful tan most of the other subdivisions of Category:People in agriculture or Category:Businesspeople by industry. Grutness...wha? 11:38, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
I thought to let the matter rest for a few days. All I looked at before I last wrote to you was David John Gunn. How long did he work for Dalgety's? Regards, Eddaido (talk) 00:44, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
About eight years. Grutness...wha? 01:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm not disputing it but, to your mind, what makes this subject notable? Eddaido (talk) 01:17, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, as I said above, in New Zealand and Australia - especially in the late 19th/early 20th century - stock and station agents were very notable people. They were often the most prominent people in their communities, and many used their position as stepping stones to careers in politics or in other rural businesses. In the case of Davy Gunn, he founded a successful rural enterprise as both a high country farmer and tourism pioneer, using business acumen that he picked up working as a stock and station agent. Grutness...wha? 01:24, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
What is the source for working for Dalgety for 8 years? I can't see an easy way to change your mind on the above except to ask you who Davey Gunn was important to stock-agent-wise. Do you borrow from your local public library and if so would you please pick up a copy of "The Rural Entrepreneurs" by Simon Ville Cambridge University Press ISBN 0 521 64265 5. If I could refer you to sections of it it would make it easier for us both.
In the distant past (1970s) the chairman of Air New Zealand, one of the nation's biggest companies, described himself as a draper (in their annual report). This does not mean as you seem to suspect that he also stood behind long counters rolling out long rolls of materials for the consideration of potential lady customers. Don't know now how many staff they had but they were bigger than most department store chains. Similarly, believe me there are / were stock agents and stock agents. 01:36, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
A variety of sources, but most notably from my copy of "Southern people : a dictionary of Otago Southland biography" (ed. J. Thomson), which notes that he worked at Dalgetys as a stock and station agent from the time he left high school (in those days, almost certainly at 15) until 1919-1920. For what it's worth, his is the weakest of the entries in the category I listed in terms of valid membership in the category - but he still qualifies.Oh, and I didn't realise you were trying to change my mind on this - I thought you simply wanted clarification. I don't see how my changing my mind is likely to make any difference to the necessity of having this category and the entries in it. If you managed to change my mind, you'll still have all of New Zealand and Australia's other editors to convince, which doesn't seem likely. any one of them who has ever been involved in the rural sector will tell you that these categories are correctly populated. Grutness...wha? 05:19, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

If you don't mind me page-stalking, Gunn is notable as everyone with an entry in the DNZB is considered notable (with the exception of a dozen or so representative entries, of which this isn't one). That's been tested over and again at AfD, with always the same outcome. Schwede66 05:04, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

The Davy Gunn article isn't being questioned for its notability. The question is whether the category Category:New Zealand stock and station agents and its Aussie equivalent) is notable and if so whether it's been correctly populated. I can't see why anyone would consider it non-notable (especially if they know the relevance of stock and station agents to antipodean society), and mony of the people categorised either founded their own one-man stock and station agencies (which may later have grown into major companies), or used the social position which came with that work as a stepping-stone to public office. In Davy Gunn's case, his agency work gave him the skills to later become a pioneer of tourism in NZ. Grutness...wha? 05:29, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
I see. Can't have read the thread properly - sorry. Schwede66 07:51, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
S'alright :) Grutness...wha? 13:42, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Hi Grutness, I certainly do hope to get you to change your mind. Any chance that we can discuss authoritative sources as suggested above? Because this kind of thing persists quite a bit in New Zealand's WP biographies - originally caused by the way they were compiled - is there a better place to bring the whole matter to the general attention? Eddaido (talk) 00:06, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't quite understand what you mean. What "kind of thing"? We're both using authoritative sources, and almost all NZ biographies I've seen use authoritative sources, too. As for changing my mind, it seems unlikely - I still don't understand why you'd want to, or what you're actually claiming about stock and station agents. They are distinctly notable, and at the moment it seems to be only you who think otherwise.
The best place to bring something to the attention of New Zealand editors is WP:WPNZ, but at the moment I haven't seen you mention anything which needs to be brought to anyone's attention. Grutness...wha? 04:07, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Quote "after leaving school he had worked briefly as a clerk for a stock and station agency before deciding a desk job didn't suit him" The Land of Doing Without by Julia Bradshaw. "After working for Dalgety and Company's stock and station agency he . . ." DNZB, Alwyn Owen. More to come, Eddaido (talk) 04:43, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
I miscalculated - it wasn't eight years - it was eighteen years. From "Southern people : a dictionary of Otago Southland biography" - On matriculating from Waimate High School [which would have been circa 1902], David joined a stock and station agency in Waimate, where he worked until, in 1919, he took up a small sheep station [at Sutton] near Middlemarch. He married the same year." If he only worked as a clerk for Dalgety briefly, but worked at the firm for eighteen years, then presumably the rest of the time he had a non-office job with them. You're right that it might not have been as a station agent, but it would be the most likely job. Grutness...wha? 05:09, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps rather than simply picking one of the articles I named and arguing from that, it'd be better if you looked at several of them... what is your argument againt, say James Armour Johnstone, Richard Jones (New South Wales politician, born 1843), Patrick Grace (politician), Newton King, Henry Le Cren, or William Duffus Hunt? Picking just one article as representative of all the articles in the category is a pretty weak way of forming an argument. Grutness...wha? 05:25, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
No, I need to make a number of points with this case. I should explain my father was a couple of months younger than Gunn and I'm very much a full generation older than you so this is how we seem to fall out. Your history is my experience. For example in my day there was an examination at the end of the sixth form year called U. E. for University Entrance. Its previous name was Matriculation. Matriculation is admission to a university. Gunn would have been at least 17 and maybe more. I do agree though that it was unusual in those days for him to stay at school and suggests (as is true) his father was more than a humble Scottish shepherd. (You may know that for centuries ordinary Scots have been very keen on education, long before the English) Again its true that his father is on record as having Been a shepherd but he became a farm manager and perhaps could afford that luxury. My copy of Southern People should have arrived by now, maybe tomorrow morning. Papers Past has been informative but has gone down for some reason but it was hard work in there to find things that I've since found Julia Bradshaw has covered. One of the concerns is that there is a John David Gunn of a similar age and locality. Talk to you later, Eddaido (talk) 07:05, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Incidentally, check for yourself who wrote the articles (or the most substantial portion of them, or just fundamental corrections) you refer to above. Eddaido (talk) 07:05, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, she was Julia and not a Jane Bradshaw. I'll provide the complete quote from her book published 2007: "after leaving school he had worked briefly as a clerk for a stock and station agency before deciding a desk job didn't suit him. He returned to the sheep farm owned by his aunts Mary and Jessie, near Waimate, where he stayed until he was called up near the end of World War One. He only made it as far as Trentham Barracks before peace was declared, upon which he was discharged and returned to Waimate and married Ethel Willets, a red-haired confectioner who enjoyed tennis and dancing". The sources are given in appendix one. Eddaido (talk) 09:51, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Interesting. I wonder how you know how old I am, or are you simply making an assumption? In my day there was also a sixth form examination called UE, so perhaps you are not totally accurate in this assumption. And yes, I know about the Scottish affinity with higher education (it would impossible to be interested in history in Dunedin without being so, and my own grandfather was born in Edinburgh in the late 1? 9th century. Not that that is relevant in any way to what you are arguing.
I'm trying to give a good reason why my attitudes differ from those of the person "Born in Barnet, England in 1963, he moved to New Zealand in 1975, and . . "
Say that Gunn was 18 when he left school. That would still mean 14 years at Dalgetys, according to my source. As for the authorship, the article in "Southern people : a dictionary of Otago Southland biography" was written by Murray Gunn - Davy's son. I would take his knowledge of Davy life over that of Julia Bradshaw.
You should see Julia's book.

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── But he was not at Dalgety's over that period and Murray Gunn is a major contributor to Julia's book published near ten years after the item attributed to him. You might notice in the early item Murray does not say how long Davey was with Dalgety's, it is Julia+Murray adds that. Davey's military record is in too bad a condition to be photocopied - that would have told us more. There was around 1916 to 1918 an L Gunn auctioneer for Dalgety's in Oamaru and in addition a C L Gunn who seems to have been a manager for Dalgety's at Waimate who was forever being sick or going away and coming back. This may have contributed to the editor's mistake

first source
Waimate Daily Advertiser
17 May 1917 Page 3
David John Gunn, farmer, Waimate, said he had one brother under age, and he managed his aunt's farm of 420 acres freehold, and 70 acres leasehold. Had lived with his aunts, who were both over 60 years of age, since he was 12 years old. His father, with the help of his (appellant's) brother ran a sheep farm of 27,000 acres in Central Otago—Adjourned for further information.

Waimate Daily Advertiser
20 June 1917 Page 4
Military Appeal Cases
David John Gunn, Hook, said he could not get anyone to manage his farm, and wanted a little time. He was allowed till the exhaustion of the First Division.

Waimate Daily Advertiser
10 April 1918 Page 4
Military Appeal Board
J. D. Gunn, Hook, asked for a sine die adjournment, or a report by, His Efficiency Board.—The latter was granted.

Waimate Daily Advertiser
10 June 1918 Page 3
Military Appeal Board
Waimate Cases
The appeal of D. J. Gunn, Waimate, was dismissed as he did not appear when called

It is my understanding that simply being a young single "stock agent" would not have stopped him being shipped away in 1916 - ideal cannon-fodder. Eddaido (talk) 11:53, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

In any case, this is all of very little relevance to either my previous comments (which asked you to look at the other articles in the category) or to the matter in hand overall (whether or not the categories belong in Wikipedia, and what the difference is between stock and station agents and stock and station agencies). You argument is working from entirely the wrong direction. Even if you managed to show that Davy Gunn does not belong in this category, it still leaves 17 other articles in this category and 30 in the Australian category. Arguing from one article seems an utterly ridiculous way to show that the categories should not be in Wikipedia. It also has no relevance whatsoever to what the difference between agents and agencies is. Personally, all this seems to be doing is arguing about one individual article. It seems to me that this qhole discussion is nothing but a complete waste of both your time and mine. Grutness...wha? 14:52, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── My concern is:

to arrive at a clear defining of stock agent / agency for Wikipedia's purposes towards which it would be good if you could have access to Simon Ville's book (which is excruciatingly dry)
to remedy the cases of the selection of minor and or early occupations in New Zealand biographies. These foibles (they often happen because a particular minor occupation is how the originator of the biography first found them) bring about unbalanced portraits
You don't seem to have noticed who created the category concerned and populated it with the right kind of people.
Eddaido (talk) 11:53, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

And you do not seem to realise who winnowed out a lot of the wrong type of people from it. Until recently it had far more articles tan it currently has, many of whom had only a passing connection to the trade, plus a number of publicly listed companies which had no right to be in there. To be honest, I'm fed up to the back gills with arguing about the whole thing. Populate it as you see fit. Grutness...wha? 00:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

OK but we need to work on this difference between us, can you get hold of The Rural Entrepreneurs? Eddaido (talk) 01:09, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Why do we need to work on this difference between us? I accept you know more about it than I do, just take out the ones you don't think should be there. Grutness...wha? 01:21, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Dalgety plc[edit]

Did you know I provided (recently) 78.5 percent of the text of the above article earning the compliments of Dormskirk who now gets attribution for only 10 percent. Sometime I plan to cover the New Zealand operation in a separate article - proper coverage would have made that article kind of out of shape. As well as other stock and station agents in NZ I have tried to create initial coverage for NZ's meat industry and also Dunedin businesses. You may not be aware of this but until the 1950s "Auckland spent Dunedin's money" In other words, Dunedin was the major source of capital within New Zealand and accordingly administered most of NZ's big businesses and I am trying to get recognition of that. But I believe you are personally associated with old Dunedin so you might know these things. ;-)) Eddaido (talk) 12:11, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Everyone in Dunedin knows that - it is a major reason for the city's continued animosity towards Auckland. By the way, given the nature of Wikipedia I didn't realise that anyone actually claimed percentages of attribution on articles. Grutness...wha? 00:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Something new every day, so they say — and someone may re-write the very same article later today and my contribution will become insignificant.
(I know you know all this, I want you to know I know it too) By and large the movers and shakers (realists?) moved north, in some cases only to Wellington then, since the 1980s, on to Auckland to join those who'd leapt up there earlier. I know quite a number of former Dunedin residents but the idea we're mentioning was given to me by a fellow student at University (Vic) in the 1950s. My motivation to write in WP is because I see so many misunderstandings that happen, I guess, because so many editors are a great deal younger than you or me. So I aim for the topics where I already have some knowledge and experience and have been / will be (possibly forever) overlooked. Ultimately its all about people and their efforts isn't it and while some will wonder why, for example, anybody could possibly be interested in the Union Steam Ship Co their activities, like those of the railways, were part of the lives of a large number of people and They are the ones (we are still around) I'm writing for - and their descendants. Eddaido (talk) 01:06, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

New Zealand[edit]

Grutness Hello! I wanted to ask you why there are no articles in the English Wiki about best novels and books of famouse New Zealand science fiction & fantasy writers: Cherry Wilder, Margaret Mahy, Lyn McConchie, Lucy Sussex, Katherine Mansfield, Fleur Adcock, Margaret Mahy, Lyn McConchie? Maybe you could fill these gaps, to whom else would you do it? --Yasnodark (talk) 16:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

No idea - there definitely should be. I'd include articles on the writings of Julius Vogel, Craig Harrison, Ged Maybury, Nalini Singh, Phillip Mann and possibly Tim Jones and Philippa Ballantine. Writing articles about books isn't really my forte though. Grutness...wha? 23:31, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Grutness Hello! You started it, so I ask you to rename other subcategories of Category:Alternate history by nationality, because now there is a chaos and unsystematic approach to the approaches. --Yasnodark (talk) 14:56, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

It all seems to be in order except that someone seems to have incorrectly moved the American category - the rest are all fine. I'm not sure what you mean by "an approach to the approaches", and I certainly can't see anything chaotic or unsystematic in there - it all follows standard Wikipedia polic of using local spellings (compare Category:Organizations by country, Category:Pediatricians by nationality or Category:Transport by country). Grutness...wha? 00:18, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Done. Grutness...wha? 00:24, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Grutness Now 80 % of categories carry the old name "Alternate" and 20 % a new name "Alternative". This is not normal. If you already rename from "Alternate" to "Alternative", then all categories are absolutely absent.--Yasnodark (talk) 15:56, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Cyde I ask you to unify the names of all categories of this series.--Yasnodark (talk) 15:59, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
@Yasnodark: you don't seem to understand how category naming works on Wikipedia. It is perfectly normal and perfectly appropriate. As with the other categories I listed (did you look at them?) local usage applies. The situation is perfectly analogous to the organiz/sation categories. So too are others like Category:Transport by country, Category:Judiciaries by country, and Category:Television news anchors by nationality. I have no idea what you mean by categories being absolutely absent - all are named appropriately and all are in place, as per Wikipedia's manual of style. Grutness...wha? 03:05, 2 December 2017 (UTC).
Grutness I think there should be a single standard for naming categories, but if you think differently - let it be as it is. But I call it unsystematic chaos.--Yasnodark (talk) 17:50, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
BrownHairedGirl & Nihonjoe I would like to know your opinion: there must be one standard (All categories or "Alternate", or "Alternative"), or one must take into account regional features and have different names in one system of categories.--Yasnodark (talk) 17:50, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
They're unlikely to see this unless you ping them. @BrownHairedGirl:, @Nihonjoe: could you please explain this to Yasnodark? S/he doesn't seem to believe it when I explain it. Grutness...wha? 23:36, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
"Alternate history" is the correct term in American English. "Alternative" implies a choice, whereas "alternate" means "different" (again, in American English). In Commonwealth English, "alternative" is the preferred word. Therefore, the categories are appropriately named as they are since all of the category titles using "alternative" are for location that use Commonwealth English. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:39, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

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Thank you for fixing your signature! —Anomalocaris (talk) 04:14, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
No problem :) Grutness...wha? 05:27, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

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Ka pai e hoa[edit]

Thanks your Grutness for tweaking Public transport in Dunedin -Peter :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:16, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

No probs :) Grutness...wha? 08:18, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

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Seasons' Greetings[edit]

The Great White North.jpg you and yours, from the Great White North! FWiW Bzuk (talk) 03:38, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

thank you! And to you and yours, from the sunny south Pacific! Grutness...wha? 00:00, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Happy Holidays[edit]

Snowflake macro (Unsplash).jpg Happy Holidays
From Stave one of Dickens A Christmas Carol

Old Marley was as dead as a door-nail. Mind! I don’t mean to say that I know, of my own knowledge, what there is particularly dead about a door-nail. I might have been inclined, myself, to regard a coffin-nail as the deadest piece of ironmongery in the trade. But the wisdom of our ancestors is in the simile; and my unhallowed hands shall not disturb it, or the Country’s done for. You will therefore permit me to repeat, emphatically, that Marley was as dead as a door-nail.

So you see even Charles was looking for a reliable source :-) Thank you for your contributions to the 'pedia. ~ MarnetteD|Talk 00:22, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Merry Christmas![edit]

Merger discussion for esplanade[edit]


An article that you have been involved in editing—esplanade—has been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. Mistakefinder (talk) 13:52, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Grutness![edit]

   Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

Seasonal events[edit]

I was going to nominate Category:Seasonal events subtree for deletion, except for Category:Seasonal festivals. Then I saw there was already a nomination on 2017-12-10 and you had undertaken to populate the categories.

I became aware of the existence of the category when you added National Famine Commemoration Day to Category:Spring (season) events in the Republic of Ireland. I disagree with this on two grounds:

  1. in Ireland, spring traditionally runs from February to April, whereas National Famine Commemoration Day is in May.
  2. The day happens to be in May but the event has nothing to do with spring as a season.

More generally,

  1. for any of the categories I checked, inclusion criteria were not specified (e.g. the definition of "spring" for Category:Spring (season) events in Australia). Is it based on hemisphere + calendar date? That would be too crude; not everywhere in the Northern Hemisphere begins spring on 21 March, either culturally or climatically. Category:Seasonal events in India If the inclusion criteria are more sophisticated then they need even more strongly to be specified explicitly.
  2. Events that happen to take place in, say, "spring" for some definition of "spring" would be overcategorised in "Spring events" unless the season is important to their identity. To what extent is Independence Day (United States) a summer event? Is Black History Month a winter event?

jnestorius(talk) 10:27, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I was not aware of the unusual dates for spring in Ireland. In most countries, northern spring is March 1 to May 31 or March 21 to June 21, and southern spring is September 1 or 22 to November 1 or December 22. The whole tree was recently nominated for deletion and saved on the proviso that it be populated. I continued population on the basis that it was previously being populated which is, as the name suggests, events which occur within a particular season, on an annual or at least frequent basis. This seems a fairly reasonable reason for grouping them together. Yes, the US's Independence Day is in summer, which is an accident of history, but it's now associated with typical summer activities pretty strongly. I haven't added Black History month to a seasonal category, since its connection with a specific season is vague. Similarly, some countries hold events such as marathons, cycle races, air shows, flower shows, open-air music events, and parades in specific seasons for weather-related reasons, so their specification by season makes perfect sense. Other events are deliberately arranged for "off seasons" when tourism would otherwise be at a low - one of the reason film festivals are often held in late autumn or winter. School-related special "weeks" are often arranged for specific parts of the educational year, so as to avoid major holidays in Summer and Winter, and also to avoid end of year exam periods, so their season-related timing is also significant. As such, I'd say that .
If May is summer in Ireland for the article you mention, then moving the article to Ireland's summer category would make sense. Grutness...wha? 11:59, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
I've added a hatnote at the top of Category:Seasonal events by country to explain the categorisation rationale. Grutness...wha? 12:09, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
"many non-Festival recurring events have perfectly valid reasons for being connected to certain seasons" — that may indeed be so but it needs to be established on a case-by-case basis. If the article on a certain event says the date was chosen for a particular season-related "historic, religious, economic, or weather-related" reason (to quote your hatnote) then it can validly be added to a season-related category, but it is WP:OR to assume that for all film festivals (or whatever -- and aren't film festivals festivals rather than events?) that some such reason exists. You agree that Black History month's connection to a season is vague, but as the National Famine Commemoration Day article states that it is sometimes in September I don't know what made you confident enough to assign it to Spring; it makes me fear that your zeal to populate the categories resulted in some overhasty inclusions. Separately, the hatnote should be Category:Seasonal events and probably on all subcats. In summary, more care is needed to ensure that the category is populated only with events that are verifiably season-related, rather than clogged up with events that by happenstance are held in a particular season. jnestorius(talk) 17:22, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
I'll admit that that p[articular one was a mistake - the lede clearly stated that it was usually in May, and I went off that with the categorisation. The lede should have said that it had moved to autumn in recent years, which would clearly make it a "movable feast". As to Film festivals, all film festivl categories are subcategories of festivals categories - and all festivals categories are subcategories of events categories - understandably, since film (and all other) festivals are events. Grutness...wha? 01:32, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
The point is that even if it were always in July that does not automatically make it a summer event. jnestorius(talk) 11:25, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
You're right - it's only a summer event (i.e., an event which occurs in summer) in the northern hemisphere. In the southern hemisphere it would be a winter event. Which is why simply categorising it as a "July event/observance/festival" as it is at the moment is not particularly helpful. Categorising it by the season in which it it occurs is far more useful. Grutness...wha? 14:24, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
The point is that even if it were always in July in Ireland that does not automatically make it a summer event. jnestorius(talk) 18:25, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
The point is that an event which only ever happens in summer is, by definition, a summer event. Look at it this way. Is Christmas a winter event? From the northern hemisphere point of view, the answer would be unequivocably yes - it is intrinsic to the winter season. But in the southern hemisphere, it is intrinsically a summer event. There is nothing which says "winter" about Christmas other than the traditions which have grown up around it. It is now a major highlight of the southern summer. It's all cause and effect. Events which happen specifically at one time of the year are now looked forward to as part of a specific season's activities. You might as well say US Independence Day shouldn't be categorised among Category:July observances, because it is only sheer chance that it occurs in that month. Grutness...wha? 00:59, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
"The point is that an event which only ever happens in summer is, by definition, a summer event" -- that is exactly where I disagree. If you really believe that, why did you not make Black History Month a winter event? 11:41, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Because it's held at on different dates in different countries. Same reason I haven't added Mothers' Day, Labour Day, or Fathers' Day. But if you think i should, then fine. Also, with the United States, simply got the categories to a point of viability and then left them with {{popcat}} hatnotes - a standard way of getting other editors involved. Grutness...wha? 11:45, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

About Pink Frost[edit]

It so annoys me that my passport is written in English and French while yours is in English and Māori. O Kuini Erihāpeti - who technically is my employer - and her family haven't spoken French as a native language for quite a long while now, etc. etc. etc
Would you be interested in whipping "Pink Frost" up to a little Wikipedia:Did you know? It's rather iconic of the Dunedin Sound.
Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 11:09, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Heh - thanks... I don't know how much more I could write about it though. Grutness...wha? 12:03, 2 January 2018 (UTC)


Hold on please! It makes no sense to cross reference categories the way you are doing. Simply appending Northern Hemisphere categories to Southern Hemisphere makes no sense. The problem arose because until I created Category:Summer holidays (Southern Hemisphere) less than a month ago, there was no listing of southern hemisphere summer holidays. Any that did take place had been included in the N. Hemisphere category, which was ridiculous. What should happen now is that any that appear there should be transferred to Category:Summer holidays (Southern Hemisphere). Please don't just cross-reference the two categories. I'm prepared to do this work to sort out the ones that need shifting. Akld guy (talk) 02:13, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Huh? I'm not appending northern hemisphere categories to southern hemisphere ones. I'm simply splitting observances into southern and northern where appropriate - I've been working on this task for a couple of months now and just got round to the southern summer - as I said, I was surprised it didn't exist before. I'm currently working predominantly on the southern spring holidays. Grutness...wha? 02:16, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
In fact you have done that. You've appended "Summer holidays (Southern Hemisphere)" to "December observances", "January observances", and "February observances", thereby bringing all the Northern Hemisphere winter holidays into our Southern Hemisphere summer holidays. It's not appropriate, even as a temporary measure. Akld guy (talk) 02:29, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
As I said, this is a temporary measure. But it's not appending them to Northern Hemisphere categories, it's appending them to worldwide categories. All the northern hemisphere events should be in the equivalent seasonal northern hemisphere categories. The northern hemisphere categories contain southern hemisphere items as well, which is just as bad - and have done so for a long time with no complaints. This sort of sorting, with temporary kludges - has been going on for as long as I've been on Wikipedia (nearly two decades now), and will no doubt continue for a long time as well - it's not ideal, but it's a viable nd valid method of working. Grutness...wha? 02:33, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Well, it's good to see that some sorting out is taking place, or at least the process has been kick started. I agree that for far too long the southern holidays were lumped in with northern ones. Akld guy (talk) 02:45, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
I've been working on seasonal events by country/hemisphere mainly, which is probably why we hadn't crossed paths before. Almost all of that is done now, which is why I moved from there onto the holidays. Grutness...wha? 05:18, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

January 2018[edit]

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Your recent editing history at Eastern Hemisphere shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. BilCat (talk) 12:27, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

@BilCat: don't teach your grandma to suck eggs. I am NOT in an edit war, I have reverted twice - well within WP:3RR. Also, don't treat me like a newbie - as I've been an admin here for over ten years, I have a fair idea about the rules. I've opened discussion about my proposed change on the talk page, which was the sensible move rather than an unwarranted threat of blocking. Now, pull your horns in, and if you've got anything constructive to say about my proposal, do it on Talk:Eastern Hemisphere. Grutness...wha? 12:37, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
I must admit that I was very surprised to find out you were an admin. You obviously shouldn't be one. Good bye. - BilCat (talk)
Charmed, I'm sure. At least I have a fair idea why you're not an admin. Grutness...wha? 12:56, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Category:Autumn holidays (Southern Hemisphere) has been nominated for discussion[edit]

Category:Autumn holidays (Southern Hemisphere), which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:55, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Copyeditor Barnstar Hires.png The Copyeditor's Barnstar
For turning burger into (near) steak, whilst not allowing unashamed bemusement as to the completely bizarre titling to stand in your way  :) >SerialNumber54129...speculates 11:58, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Thank you! Grutness...wha? 00:12, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Rostrogordo[edit]

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Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a notice to inform you that a tag has been placed on Rostrogordo requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, a "See also" section, book references, category tags, template tags, interwiki links, images, a rephrasing of the title, a question that should have been asked at the help or reference desks, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

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Speedy declined — MONUMENTA I left you a note at your talk page. ~ Amory (utc) 20:25, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
Unsurprisingly. Defined places with listed features are not speediable. It's a long time since I've received a "welcome to Wikipedia" message, BTW! Grutness...wha? 00:57, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Makes ya feel young and alive! ~ Amory (utc) 01:54, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 :) Grutness...wha? 01:56, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of File:Brazilstubmap.png[edit]

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It served its purpose and has been superceded. Delete at will! Grutness...wha? 01:32, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Category:Songs from Carousel (musical)[edit]

Sorry I didn't respond to you on the CfD for the above, I was on a somewhat unintended break.

It wasn't my intention for this to be a test case, though there may be some virtue there. I was recently involved in a discussion about what actually constitutes a WP:SMALLCAT; that conversation fizzled a bit over a month ago, though I've just attempted to revive it to "recommend" that a small category generally has fewer than five members. My nominating this category was informed by the prior CfD that led to that discussion. In this case, I appreciate your creation of a new category to address the concern, versus a larger-scale upmerging.

I do think it would be worthwhile to review and potentially consolidate other small cats, but I'm not planning to actively hunt them down. Maybe we could have a bot tag them for review, assuming there isn't one already in play? DonIago (talk) 17:15, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Might be worth doing, though it's not really an urgent problem. There are a few obvious ones in Category:Songs from musicals, but I've no doubt they'll all turn up at CfD sooner or later. I added a couple more songs by writers from musicals categories which I think has helped a bit as far as categorising the loose songs is concerned, but there are a few musicals where that won't really help (one- or two-song categories from a writer's only well-known musical and the like). But as I say, they'll probably trickle into CfD gradually anyway. Grutness...wha? 00:49, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. Thanks! DonIago (talk) 20:12, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Any comment on NZ Wikipedian at Large grant?[edit]

Hi there. I have a Project Grant open for comment at the moment, to fund me for a year as a NZ Wikipedian at Large. I'd appreciate your opinion, as an experienced NZ Wikimedian, if you have a moment to take a look at it. If you think the proposal has legs, I'd be very grateful for your endorsement; if you can see problems, feel free to add suggestions to its Discussion page. There's no pressure, it would just be good to have more input from people who know the NZ Wikipedia scene. Cheers, Mike/Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 07:01, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Rowing stubs[edit]

Hi James, I've done a bit more work in the rowing space and there are now some stub tags that categorise to European rowing biography stubs but should rather point to their own country rowing bio stub category. This includes three countries: Denmark (117 rowers), USSR (88 rowers), and Czech Republic (74 rowers). Sweden, Ukraine and Russia are all in their 40s and are thus getting close; do I remember it right that 65 is the number that you need before you change things? What actually needs doing when the threshold is reached? Do I need to ask you (or another member of the stub sort group), or can I do the resulting changes myself? Schwede66 19:30, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

60 is the usual number. Given that these are pretty standard splits you could probably get away with doing it yourself, but the official process is to propose it at WP:WSS/P. Grutness...wha? 00:46, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
PS - good work! Grutness...wha? 00:48, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
Ok, I'll chance it and trust that I won't get into trouble. I've just tried to action Denmark. If I see this right, there are two things to do:
Correct? Is that all? Schwede66 08:54, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
Yup. Looks good to me :) Make sure you're guided by the names of the existing categories when making the new ones. Grutness...wha? 14:00, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Ruziza for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Ruziza is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ruziza until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Mangoe (talk) 17:09, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for making me laugh[edit]


Black humour of a fine grade. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:58, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

:) Grutness...wha? 01:39, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you![edit]


Thank you for editing Mövenpick Ice Cream! I'm still learning so I am grateful to see how pages can be improved. Thank you!

SunnyBoi (talk) 04:03, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

No problem - have fun editing! Grutness...wha? 04:06, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for May 12[edit]

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List of sportspeople–artists[edit]

Awesome work, and all the effort put into every detail of it! Svedlundp (talk) 16:27, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Grutness...wha? 23:41, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Category:People associated with bungee jumping has been nominated for discussion[edit]

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Air travel[edit]

Waiting on a copy of Richard Waugh's book from the library because I suspect it continued until 1976. Eddaido (talk) 05:09, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

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William Jones (Welsh footballer, born 1876)[edit]

Please do not remove any Welsh players from Category:Welsh footballers! GiantSnowman 09:32, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

  • @GiantSnowman: Huh? I didn't realise I did! I've simply been replacing "People from town" with either "Sportspeople from town" or "Footballer from town". If I did, it was accidental. Grutness...wha? 09:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
No worries, thanks for explaining! GiantSnowman 09:41, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

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