User talk:Hammersoft

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Ping User:Salvidrim![edit]

Salvidrim!, in regards to these two diffs: [1], followed by [2].

I appreciate you striking your earlier comment, but I wanted to raise issue with it. Please understand I'm not trying to pick a fight here, nor do I expect you to apologize further than you already have (and thank you for the apology that you've given). In fact, you don't even need to respond if you prefer. I wanted to share my view on your comments with you, to give you the opportunity to consider your actions in this case with regards to future interactions with others.

It was not necessary for you to state "you don't understand the most basic notions of how discussions and consensus work". This is nothing short of a blatant violation of WP:NPA. Your statement could have just as easily been written "The fact that people are disagreeing with you shows that it is controversial", and it would have quite adequately conveyed the point. Please carefully consider what you're saying in the future, and do not attack people with your commentary.

I wish you all the best, and thanks for your time. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Resolution of non-free images[edit]

Hey, Hammer. I've received an inquiry regarding the University of Florida seal on my talk page: User talk:Dirtlawyer1#Better resolution UF seal. As I understand it, we try to avoid using high-resolution versions of non-free images to avoid potential copyright infringement issues. Could you please chime in, and cite chapter and verse for the user making the inquiry (as well as my own edification)? Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:01, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

  • Hey DL. As you rightly stated some time ago, this sort of work is PD due to Florida state law. See Copyright_status_of_work_by_U.S._subnational_governments#Florida. So, it would seem to me the seal is PD by way of State of Florida statute. It may very well be PD by way of age; if that is the original seal, it would predate 1923, and thus be in PD by way of age. But, let's assume for the moment it isn't PD. I am guessing, but I would suspect the person posting on your talk page is referring to this image. There's not many images of the UF seal on the web, and this one in particular is 220x220 and is from their domain. I agree this image is better and should replace the image we are currently using for the seal. I don't see 220x220 being a problem. I think we tend to start edging into problematic territory when we get above 300px in any dimension, but it's not a hard rule and varies case to case. Lastly, I don't think the seal should be used in the infobox of University of Florida. The university's own branding makes strong use of the wordmark logo. See their identity site. Further, if you look at their main site at, there's no sign of the seal, but the wordmark is used. Also, the wordmark can not attract copyright, only trademark, as it is eligible for {{PD-text}}. We already have it here (though that seems a bit blurry too), and it should go to the top of the infobox. Since UFL uses the wordmark so extensively, far fewer people would recognize the seal than the wordmark. Hope that helps, --Hammersoft (talk) 17:27, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I think I made an argument about Florida state-owned art under very specific circumstances; if we've had a discussion about state-generated images being PD in Florida, I've forgotten it. I am aware, of course, of the Florida sunshine law that places all state-generated documents and images in the public domain, but I suspect the state seal (and university seal, of which it is derivative) might have a different status. Does the state (or the university) really want anyone freely using the state (or university) seal who isn't officially associated with the state (or university)?
As for using the university seal in the article infobox, that's the only article of several dozen university-related topics where we use it, and we also use the UF wordmark there, too. As the official seal, that's the only appropriate place I would use it -- unless you think it should be moved to main body text. All other university-related articles (e.g., those about the university's constituent colleges and schools) use the wordmark exclusively, and the Florida Gators sports articles all use either the separate Gator head athletics logo or the "Gators" wordmark. I'm almost 100% certain that the Gator head logo remains a copyrighted, non-free image, and I've set up the NFCC rationales for each of the primary sports team articles, but we've been diligent in not permitting it to spread to seasons, bowl games, rivalries, etc., pursuant to a NFCC compromise from three or four years ago. Again, I'm pretty sure the sports logo is not PD, but that may be because it is held by the athletic association, which is a private, non-profit corporation -- legally separate from the university.
Bottom line: you think it is reasonably safe to use the higher resolution image of the seal (albeit in a display format proportionate to the infobox) until someone tells us there is a specific exception for the seal under the Florida sunshine/PD laws? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:37, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
  • The state can protect the use of the seal of the university via trademark protections. Yes, I would move the seal to somewhere within the article along with a description of some kind explaining the contents of it. It is an important emblem, but it's not the branding identity of the university now. I think uploading the larger image is fine. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:23, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Shake, shake, shake! Shake Mammootty![edit]

Hey Hammer, so the 2 month protection at Twenty:20 (film) juuuuuuust got lifted, and lookit: this guy sneaks in and arbitrarily moves Mammootty to the front of the list. Can you believe it? They must've put the expiration on their Google calendar or something! Anyhow, on the off-chance that it is a coincidence, I'm going to hold off on another RPP. But if I see it again... Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:48, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Amazing, isn't it? Obviously if it keeps up, a longer RPP will be needed. Silly, silly stuff. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:03, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

@Cyphoidbomb: He's baaack. User:Riskmadetosuccess in 100 days [3]. I've asked one of the admins that blocked socks in this case to block this new one. See User_talk:Materialscientist#Another_sock_of_an_abusive_editor. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:34, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Whatever happened to cricket? When did rampant sockpuppetry become the national sport of India? One interesting thing, is that if the Indian press caught wind that there are legions of sockpuppets devoted to wiping Mohanlal out of existence, that would probably wind up making Mammootty look like a real asshole. The guy is probably doing more damage to his hero than helping him. I wonder if this guy Bashahikgt relpaces a disambiguation page with then entire Mammootty article. WTF? And how dare he taunt the Cluebot! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 14:49, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Missy Franklin, etc.[edit]

Hey. I've proposed compromise language on the article talk page, and I am willing to also add an explanatory footnote to the sporting nationality parameter to the infobox to the effect "Franklin is a dual citizen of the United States and Canada who has chosen to represent the United States in international swimming competition." Or words to that effect of your choosing. The U.S. flag icon needs to stay, however. It is the symbol of her membership of the U.S. national team, and, yes, it is intended to call attention to that fact. I'm willing to discuss the duplicate flags in the infobox, but please recognize that not all Olympians are medalists, and we are trying to format all infoboxes consistently. And, frankly, I am also trying to preserve the status quo formatting until the contradictory MOS:ICON instructions are sorted out for members of national sports teams and other athletes in international competition. I expect that will finally happen some time this year; if someone else does not, I am prepared to file a comprehensive RfC for flag icon usage in sports bios and other international sports articles. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:45, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Honestly, the subject is of interest to me but at this point I don't _want_ to care anymore. I find the project wide disregard for global guidelines to be silly in the extreme. The gross misapplication of WP:INFOBOXFLAG in sports related articles is just one permutation of this. There is an extreme level of silo-ing going on, with sports related areas even further silo-ing. Policies and guidelines simply don't apply in these areas. If you try to apply, you get reverted and dragged through the mud. Occasionally, you even get the e-equivalent of being tarred and feathered. I'm sick of it. Yes, there are special cases where guidelines/policies might not have considered permutations of problems. But, to completely abrogate policy/guideline for an entire area of the project is flat wrong. A sport, any sport, is not a special case. It is a case that needs to be covered by the guideline. Less than 7% of his professional outings represented the United States. Yet if you dare remove the flag
  • Swimming isn't at all isolated in this. There are many sports that have divergent rules on this. Take golf. Tiger Woods' career includes more than 230 professional competitions. Only 15 of those are times he has represented the United States. Yet, if you dare remove the flag from his infobox, you will be instantly reverted. It doesn't make sense. Nationality DOES NOT mean what country you represent in sport. Readers coming to the article will wonder why there's no Swedish flag icon for Elin, no icon for Stanford, no flag icon for California, no flag icon for Florida...and well they should wonder. It's senseless.
  • In the specific case of Missy Franklin, and applying it more generally; to take any person who has dual citizenship and try to proclaim their nationality in the infobox as one or the other country only is fallacious, and can even be seen as grossly insulting to the person in question. If I had dual citizenship, I would be proud of being a citizen of both nations. To have my Wikipedia article not reflect that in the infobox would be grossly misleading, and demeaning to my status as a citizen of the nation not mentioned in the infobox. This must stop. It must. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:55, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Hammer, buddy, don't get too worked up over this; I have generally defended project-wide guidelines, and I am working overtime to accommodate what I believe are your legitimate issues. But I also know the tainted history of how the present MOS:ICON language was adopted (LOCALCONSENSUS with zero notice to and no input from the affected parties), and I know every nuance of its self-contradictory language. It is a perfect example of how not to hold a project-wide discussion, with project wide implications, especially in the face of project-wide uses that flatly contradict the "guideline" as adopted. I can also point to recent MOS talk page discussions that clearly demonstrate there is no consensus to enforce the various contradictory provisions. But those are all arguments for another day, in another forum.
Please rejoin the article talk page discussion, please review what I previously wrote above, and let's see if we can find a compromise we can live with, at least until MOS:ICON gets sorted. Thanks -- and remember we really are trying to work with you, and do your best to reciprocate. Compromise requires two sides to suck it up. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:15, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Nope, don't care. Or, at least, I don't want to care. It's just one article, and any 'compromise' is going to result in a hash that can't be applied elsewhere, and even if it were would potentially be construed as insulting to the people who have articles about them here. It's just not worth the headache. Thanks, I'll pass. It's off my watchlist, and will remain so permanently. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:25, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Hey, Hammer. Hopefully, this [4] will resolve the issues you had with the Missy Franklin article, her dual nationality, and the use of the flag icon for her "sporting nationality." The infobox template has been changed to add a new parameter for "national_team" to clarify what was previously ambiguous; when the "national_team" parameter is invoked, the "nationality" parameter is excluded. "National_team" will be used for the overwhelming majority of notable swimmers who have represented their country in international competition as a member of their national team, i.e., in the Olympic Games, Commonwealth Games, Pan Pacific Championships, Pan American Games, European Championships, etc. For the minority of notable swimmers who have never been a member of their national team, the infobox will continue to use the "nationality" parameter, and no flag icon will be used. The flag will be used exclusively in the "national_team" parameter. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:36, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

  • It's a step in the right direction. Still offers a redundancy with whom they represent in the medal record section of the infobox where it says "Competitor for ..." Still, a redundancy is far, far better situation than a possible BLP insult. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:46, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Hammer, once the new "national_team" parameter is discussed among other swimming editors, I propose to remove the redundant flag icons from the infobox medals table for almost all swimmers, with a limited exception for British swimmers who win medals while representing England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in the Commonwealth Games. Not every notable swimmer is a medalist, but the overwhelming majority are/were members of their national team, therefore it is logical to have the sole instance of flag icon in the infobox proper, rather than in the infobox's medals table, for the sake of consistent formatting of all swimmer infoboxes. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:32, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
  • FYI, all 661 U.S. Olympic swimmer articles have been conformed to the infobox formatting described above -- one flag icon in the "national team" parameter for national team members, with no redundant links within the infobox -- and I've started chewing on the Aussies and Canadians. Cheers, Old Man. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:35, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Be careful with the Aussies. Some of them are rather leathery. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:42, 17 April 2015 (UTC)


I've been following your commentary in this thread with interest, and agreeing with most of your critique and analysis. Your recitation of the chequered history of the guideline's adoption and subsequent amendments is spot-on. I'm not yet ready to toss the baby with the bathwater, but it is indeed a strange guideline that ostensibly permits these flags [5], but not this one [6]. I wish we could find a way to work together on this. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:48, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

  • I appreciate your sentiments. Though, I don't think there's anything to 'work' on per se. I think the middle ground is impossible on this one. Years of attempts to implement, modify and otherwise try to improve the guideline to support a middle ground has yielded nothing but failure. The current situation is untenable; the middle ground isn't going to work. There's just too many unusual situations and too many wikiprojects that want a say in their portion of the entire project to codify a middle ground that makes logical sense. The only logical conclusion to this is either removing the guideline (thus allowing flags to be used liberally, as they are on many articles already) or changing it to be absolute, prohibiting them entirely. Either end of that spectrum doesn't require 'work' really. The hard part, if there is work to be done, is to convince editors of the failure of the status quo and enable them to see there is no sense in supporting the middle ground anymore. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:00, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: User:Rolandselectric/sandbox[edit]

Hello Hammersoft. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of User:Rolandselectric/sandbox, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: Not unambiguously promotional. Thank you. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 19:47, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Ummm, right. An account with the name "Roldandselectric" writes a autobiographical article on their own company, complete with address and phone number and talking about how it is "one of the largest full service electrical contracting firms on Long Island" (in it's original version, when I tagged it) and this isn't promotional?? I'm curious, what WOULD count as promotional? The sole purpose the account was created (at least so far) was to get this article created. In the words of the person writing it, "The company name needs to be named". --Hammersoft (talk) 20:02, 4 March 2015 (UTC)


So, are you as good at finding free images for Wikipedia use as you are at sniffing out the ones that are non-free? I need a free-use image for a pending Good Article about Tim McKee, a 1984 Olympic gold medalist in swimming. Any suggestions, Hammer? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

  • I'm a right knee biting jerk, so finding stuff to improve the encyclopedia as opposed to ripping out content isn't my thing. Just kidding, but that's what some people think :) I'll take a poke around. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:30, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Hey wait, I'll make you a deal...take that flappin' flag out of the infobox at Tim McKee and I'll see if I can find a free image of him :) --Hammersoft (talk) 18:31, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • A quick pass using various search ideas came up with nothing. I mean nothing...not even non-free. Maybe I'm not searching very well. Anyway, given that he works with non-profits, there's gotta be something out there, and maybe even the State of Florida might have something. Swim Across America might be willing to release a photo of him, though their flickr stream has all rights reserved. Worth contacting them. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:40, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks for looking, Hammer. McKee was a tough one -- early 1970s, and overshadowed by Mark Spitz's 7 gold medals and the Munich PLO attack. I'm going to re-check the University of Florida Digital Collection, most, if not all of which is deemed to be state property and therefore free use under the particulars of Florida state law. I'm also looking for photos for current Good Articles Catie Ball '68, Nicole Haislett '84 and Mary Wayte '84 and '88, and pending Good Articles Theresa Andrews '84, Duncan Armstrong '84, Mike Heath '84, David Larson '84, and Mark Stockwell '84. All were U.S. swimmers, Olympic medalists and Florida Gators -- except for Armstrong and Stockwell who are both Aussies. If we can't find anything else for these folks, I will contact SAA -- I would think they would find it in their best interests to have SAA photos included on Wikipedia GAs.
FYI, it's been a long time since I considered you a "knee-biting jerk," and I do get what you're about more often than not. We all have a role to play, Hammer, and you play yours well. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
  • If ever you called me such a disparaging term, I don't recall it. I didn't mean to imply that _you_ ever had, just that I used to get all sorts of insults of that kind from various people when I routinely did NFCC enforcement. I know we've been at loggerheads before, but I think we've always been civil to each other. I hope so anyway. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:26, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Hammer, as far as I'm concerned, the hatchet was buried a long time ago.  : ) Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:30, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

djokovic timeline[edit]

Do you know how to find those logos as a content which is allowed to use? would be nice because I think it looked pretty good. I will delete them so that the blank white space isn't there anymore. Thanks in advance... --User:Wohlklang ND ps. I am new to wikipedia

  • Wikimedia Commons has an enormous repository of free licensed images that can be used on templates here. You may find something of use there, but you will not find any non-free logos. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:24, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Hammersoft. You have new messages at GSK's talk page.
Message added 23:17, 12 March 2015 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

GSK (tc) 23:17, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions#3O_needed_on_need_for_2_separate_NFCC_rationales --[User:Elvey|Elvey]] (talk) 18:43, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Deleted image[edit]

Hi Hammersoft, Can you please be a bit more specific as to why you have deleted Cahit Arf's photo in 1997 in Turkey ? This photo was upladed in 2011 and it is still in use in page Cahit Arf. Thanks. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:14, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Sure! It's a non-free image, and as such must fall under our WP:NFCC policy and WP:NFC guideline. Using a non-free image on the 1997 in Turkey article is inappropriate, as there is no pressing need for the image to be there in order for that article to serve its purpose (see WP:NFCC #8). --Hammersoft (talk) 13:13, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Link Classifier[edit]

It's located at User:Anomie/linkclassifier. It colours links dependent on what they are (Green for Redirects, yellow background for DAB, pink for nominated for deletion, as mentioned, red outline for fair use images, and some more). It is customizable (so you can say, turn off the redirect colouring for example). I quite like it, because it makes it easy to pick out self linking redirects, disambiguation pages, and fair use images. Cheers, --kelapstick(bainuu) 22:35, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Thanks! I'll have a look at it. --Hammersoft (talk) 23:38, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

New/Old User[edit]

Hello! I am a long time user of the Georgian Wikipedia. I had an account on English Wikipedia, but apparently I lost this account and now I register new account, but now I can't upload images. can you help me please? I need to write a little article today. My Georgian account is Gnome.Gghonghadze (talk) 14:12, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Can we "import" my account from Georgian wiki and do not wait for four days?Gghonghadze (talk) 14:18, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Not that I'm aware of. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:20, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Day of the Sun[edit]

As we all know, Wikipedia:Redirects are cheap. However, in some cases the costs outweigh the benefits. I redlinked "Day of the Sun" because I think the topic (most important public holiday of the country; independent and reliable sources abound) is notable. That's why we create redlinks - to see what notable topics lack articles. Now that it was redirected back to "Kim Il-sung", we can no longer link it from there to avoid a self-redirecting wikilink. Since that article was one of the most prominent places to link it from, this certainly obscures the identification of notable topics that lack articles - the purpose of redlinks. I think the redirect is not warranted because "Day of the Sun" is not a synonym for "Kim Il-sung" (I don't think Fourth of July redirects to United States either). There isn't even a section in "Kim Il-sung" on "Day of the Sun" to redirect to. (see WP:POFRED: "Reasons for creating and maintaining redirects include[:] Sub-topics or other topics which are described or listed within a wider article. (Such redirects are often targeted to a particular section of the article.)") In fact, the only mention about the "Day of the Sun" in that article is where I put that redlink. (see WP:R#DELETE: "You might want to delete a redirect if[:] the redirect could plausibly be expanded into an article, and the target article contains virtually no information on the subject."). The topics are only tangentially related - a perfect case for building the web by linking from one article to another, and redlinks are the way to start. Finnusertop (talk | guestbook | contribs) 15:49, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

  • If the Day of the Sun is 1/1000th as notable of Fourth of July, I'm sure there's plenty enough information out there to form a basic stub. As is, the previously redlinked location had just two inbound links to it. For contrast, Fourth of July has nearly 400 and Canada Day just over 400. Granted, has an obvious western bias. If you want to turn it back into a redlink, feel free. I've no objection. But, given that is featured on "On this day..." on the main page, it seemed strange we should have a redlink on Kim Il-sung's page for it. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:02, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
    • I'm one of those people who think that creating stubs just to be placeholders for actual articles in the future is not particularly useful - again, it defeats the purpose of redlinks to turn them blue at any cost. I agree that has a huge bias on North Korea related articles. Having more redlinks could highlight this problem, raise awareness, and ultimately alleviate it. I agree that the main page link strikes as odd if there was an actual article on the "Day of the Sun" - I'm not familiar with main page policies as to say why they made a piped link like that to begin with. My intention wasn't to scold an editor who is obviously far more experienced than I am, but sometimes this redlink-vs-bluelink battle gets me, and I think redirects in particular could be used more sparingly. Finnusertop (talk | guestbook | contribs) 16:28, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
      • Honestly, it doesn't matter that much to me. I didn't take it as scolding. I don't look to see how long a person has been around or how many edits they have, and really don't think anyone is more or less experienced than anyone else here. Some of the best ideas come from the newest people. An idea, thought, or opinion is not weighted by a notional concept of 'experience'. Down that road lies ownership issues, trench issues, and the like. See also User:Hammersoft#Sudden_revelation for a humorous take on it. :) --Hammersoft (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2015 (UTC)


Hi Hammersoft, thanks for your message. I have read the COI guidelines and thought I was following them. Is there any action in particular that I've taken that causes you concern? Thanks. Alex at CreditSavvy (talk) 23:58, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Not at all. I saw there was a high potential for conflict of interest, and that the routine warning available at {{uw-coi}} had not been placed on your talk page. So, I wanted to make sure you were aware of the instructions contained in that routine warning. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:03, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

who are you?[edit]

who are you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Big ding ding 099 (talkcontribs)

  • I'm an editor on Wikipedia. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:10, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Query from a journalist[edit]

Hi Hammersoft, I'm a journalist with the New York Times. I'm working on a story about a U.S. national politician whose "people" appear to have been editing his/her page to delete negative but apparently-truthful (and sourced, etc.) information in 2012 and 2013. You reverted this edit and sent a message to the politician's associates warning them about unexplained removals. Could I ask you some questions about your experience as a Wikipedia editor and what you think about this situation? (Will go into more details in a non-public forum.)

Wikipedia is not my natural environment; would you be willing to chat by phone or email? (Or IM, whatever's your preference.) I'm jeremy dot merrill at nytimes dot com on email (and jeremybmerrill on AIM and jeremybmerrill at jeremybmerrill dot com on XMPP/Jabber/GChat). My deadline is around Wednesday, 4/22, so I'd love to hear back from you soon. Jeremybmerrill (talk) 14:59, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Thank you for your contact. No, I do not wish to be involved, nor mentioned as part of any story. Any actions I take are in accordance with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:06, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Hey there[edit]

Hey. I was just editing Oleg Shuplyak from Ukranian Wikipedia and translating it to English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Diazabdulm (talkcontribs) 14:24, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Ok no worries. I just marked it as patrolled. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:25, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Different types of employee[edit]

Hi, you may be slightly confused about WMF employees and Wikimedia UK employees. Wikimedia UK is not run by the WMF and exists entirely as a legally separate entity (I was on the board when we were setting up the charity). Consequently WMF policies for employees do not apply to Wikimedia UK employees. Thanks -- (talk) 15:42, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

  • I'm quite aware, but thank you nonetheless. I've seen Foundation:Local chapters and what it says there. Personally, I don't think it matters. According to that page, "Local chapters are independent organizations that share the goals of the Wikimedia Foundation" If that be the case, and a goal of the WMF is not to generate public controversy with misuse of accounts, then it is a goal theoretically shared by chapters. More importantly, the public is not going to make a differentiation between the Foundation and its chapters. If a chapter employee has behaved in a way that contravenes standing Foundation policy, then a line has been crossed. The public may very vociferously excorciate them for this behavior. The Foundation attempting to disassociate themselves from the actions of a chapter and/or its employees may ring very hollow indeed, and have no appreciable effect on the disrepute that comes to them by way of chapters. More specifically to this project, ArbCom has a role in protecting this project from misdeeds by its editors. It is my opinion that a chapter or Foundation employee should never use any advanced user access levels, and should be stripped of such access levels when employed to remove any potential source of controversy. The only case where such access levels should be needed and used are in cases where the Foundation is applying policies. At a bare minimum, employees should be asking via noticeboards for administrator/checkuser/oversight action in any case where they believe such is needed rather than acting themselves. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:58, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I appreciate the general point and I agree with the principle, so would like employees to be seen to be highly cautious and conservative when using advanced rights. Legally, the way I understand it to work (speaking casually as a past Chapter Chairman) is that a Wikimedia chapter has to sign up to the chapters agreement. Among other things, this does ensure that the chapter does not bring the WMF into disrepute in order for it to continue to use the "Wikimedia" name. As a UK charity, the UK chapter already has legal requirements on it to effectively do this. Precisely how policies for employee conduct should work and how details such as declarations of interest must be published, is mostly left to the best judgement of the board of the charity. I think that is a good thing, but it would be useful if cases like this were used as a positive motivation to improve transparency and accountability for employee activities, especially those that blur the unpaid volunteer / paid volunteer / employee boundaries.
    As a regular example that has been discussed several times, we see WMF and local chapter employees writing from official Wikimedia email addresses, but they seem to believe it is okay to say what they like, so long as they put "this is a personal opinion" at the end of it. In a world where anyone can set up free email accounts, I see no harm at all in requiring that all email from official email addresses is official and nothing else. -- (talk) 16:22, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I strongly agree. See the first paragraph of this opinion piece from me. It is my belief that once you become a paid employee, regardless if it is a chapter or the Foundation itself, you are voluntarily giving up certain privileges. Those, I think, should include editing any of the projects except in capacity as an employee. The attempted compromise position of trying to demarcate volunteer and paid time has failed. It will continue to fail, and the public frankly won't care that some line was established. Companies and governments have for a long time recognized that conduct of its employees outside of paid time is directly connected to them and have put policies in place to address this. As a case example, look at all the sports figures whose behavior outside of their sport has resulted in them being suspended or banned from their sport. That the WMF refuses to address this in a professional manner shows gross incompetence on their part. Case example of this is their policies page and Code of conduct policy have not been updated in any respect to demarcate the line, if it even exists. Thus, even their failed compromise position hasn't been codified...yet they expect everything to be just fine. This is, to say the least, shocking. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:35, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

I had not seen (I probably should have made an effort to find!) Template:Editnotices/Group/Wikipedia:Arbitration, thank you for pointing me in that direction. Regarding your comment about editors making posts with the sole purpose of discrediting other editors - it is a lot easier to be sanguine about it when it isn't happening to you! Thanks again. Hobson (talk) 19:49, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

  • @Hobson: No worries. About discrediting; mainly concerned here that this case is about the case, not about other editors. The case is important enough on its own. It might be useful to request a third opinion on Black Kite or other avenues for dispute resolution. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:53, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sockpuppet investigation block opened[edit]

You were recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sockpuppet investigation block. Given the legal, privacy and BLP implications of holding the case in public the Committee has decided to run the case completely in camera, to that effect there will be no public evidence submission or workshop. Editors with direct knowledge of the events and related evidence are requested to email their to by May 7, 2015 which is when evidence submission will close. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 07:01, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

A.T Still University[edit]

I'm currently working on how to correctly edit the content on the A.T. Still University page to not have the page be flagged as an advertisement. I would greatly appreciate any help regarding this issue, specifically what content we need to delete in order to remove the flag. I have tried multiple times to edit the content and remove content that I feel is written as an advertisement and it shortly after is deleted or changed back to the original content.

As an advertising agency on behalf of ATSU we want the page to contain only true facts regarding the University and it's entities. Wikipedia and ourselves both want the same result, I would just appreciate your help in getting to that point. Thank you in advance. LauraSchmitz20 — Preceding unsigned comment added by LauraSchmitz20 (talkcontribs) 18:25, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

  • (just pinging you to let you know a longer response is coming). On second thought, going to continue the conversation we were having on your talk page. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:52, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration Case[edit]

The arbitration case Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/OccultZone_and_Others has been opened. For the arbitration committee, Robert McClenon (talk) 17:46, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

You were recently listed as a party to a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/OccultZone and others. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/OccultZone and others/Evidence. Please add your evidence by May 15, 2015, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/OccultZone and others/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Robert McClenon (talk) 01:59, 1 May 2015 (UTC) Robert McClenon (talk) 01:59, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Umm, no I was not recently listed as a party to a request for arbitration. Your edit summary here says "clarify" but you made it less clear :) --Hammersoft (talk) 02:36, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

€2 commemorative coins with external links[edit]

Hi Hammersoft - I left some remarks on this subject. Have a nice day! Gerd--Gerd.Seyffert (talk) 19:19, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

  • I'm following. Thanks! --Hammersoft (talk) 19:29, 30 April 2015 (UTC)


Hello Hammersoft, thanks for helping with WP:NFCR. When you close NFCR-discussions, please "subst:" both closing templates. Transcluded closed sections won't get archived by ClueBot with the current configuration. Best regards. GermanJoe (talk) 21:57, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Noted. But, the template should be modified to warn about the need to subst. Other templates have this architecture. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:12, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks for helping out and making closes for the discussions. Please, however, remember that this is a discussion board and unless there is need for immediate action, or the situation is 100% obvious, we usually wait at least a full week before closing, especially when there is discussion in the past few days. Also, remember to be careful about closing discussions that you participate in. I know you've been doing these types of things for a long time, so I'm not truly worried, but I don't want you to end up in a situation that will turn you away from the board. Cheers, TLSuda (talk) 20:06, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Being told to back off will turn me away from the board :) Seriously, this is just housekeeping work and it's non-controversial. If I think something needs to be left open, I do. If it's obvious a close would be non-controversial (or at least shouldn't be under policy), I close it. Witness closes I made today:
What I find distressing about this board is the obvious lack of attention it gets from those interested in housekeeping it. 114 threads? Really? "Open" discussions dating back to last year? Really? If you want to remove problems from the board, I think you'd be better served by addressing the actual problems, not me...who is doing some (I think) good work here :) --Hammersoft (talk) 20:18, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


Hi, Hammersoft. Whether you like it or not, you've always been my go to person for questions regarding images! Do you think the fair use policy would allow me to use the top image in this article in Bernard Darke? - Location (talk) 02:47, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Go away! Just kidding :) Yes, as an image that immediately precedes his death, showing him attempting to flee his assailants I think it amply qualifies. Just ensure the image description page and the caption of the photo when in use, both adequately describes what is taking place. At first view of the image, I was not able to understand the significance of the photograph. After reading the description, oh yeah. This is a potent image. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:05, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
    • Thanks for the feedback! I've found the same photo on a handful of other sites (maybe copied from that one) but unfortunately I haven't been able to track down the original photographer or source. I might wait until the Afd closes since there is a chance that it could be all for naught if I take the time to upload it right now. Cheers, and thanks again! - Location (talk) 14:09, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Reichstag and Red Flag[edit]

That's me, second from left in the first row. (Kinda short for a stormtrooper -- must have been a legacy.)

Do you think that the Red Army Flag famous picture belongs to this article? Any idea where to find a foto and use it in the article without copyright problems? Vagr7 (talk) 09:46, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

  • @Vagr7: No, it doesn't belong, and no there is no photograph of that moment in history that is free of copyright. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:47, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
    • @Hammersoft: I think you are heavily biased. Are you a German, nazist or something? Then you should avoid editing these type of articles, you are afraid to face history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vagr7 (talkcontribs)
      • @Vagr7: First, you don't need to use ping to ping me to my own talk page. The message notification system already does that for you when you place messages on my talk page. Second, hahahahahaha! No, sorry (wiping tears from eyes) I'm not German or a Nazist. You should really pay attention to WP:NPA. Third, afraid to face history? Uh, no. Considering I have literally hundreds of books on history in my personal library, umm, no. Here's reality; WP:NFC#UUI #6 states that you should not use "An image to illustrate an article passage about the image, if the image has its own article (in which case the image may be described and a link provided to the article about the image)" Since File:Reichstag flag original.jpg has an article dedicated to it at Raising a flag over the Reichstag, using it elsewhere is against policy. I've already pointed this out to you before. Apparently this has not been understood by you. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have to help you understand this point in policy. Please feel free to ask me here. Thanks, --Hammersoft (talk) 13:55, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Hammer, is this the first time you've been called a Nazi? I mean a real, live, goose-stepping Nazi -- not just a sometimes copyvio nazi? (Not, of course, to be confused with the "Soup Nazi.") Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:25, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Dangit, I've been found out! Also, while I like soup and have been to NYC many times, I've never been on W. 55th. Hrm. No wikipedia for me! --Hammersoft (talk) 14:56, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I did a year of law school in Britain on an exchange program for American law students. The program was designed with concentrated three-day class weeks and long breaks between terms so we could travel during the year. One of the weirdest and most surprising things I saw in Europe was re-runs of Hogan's Heroes dubbed into German while we were in Vienna. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:13, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Wow! I mean...WOW! I would never have expected that. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:26, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
  • And 46,000 views. Unreal! --Hammersoft (talk) 18:34, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


You can hysterically claim "the actions of the community here towards Alan have been most reprehensible" as is your right to an opinion, but you and I and Alan know that Alan has a choice of thousands of areas of Wikipedia to which he could contribute. Instead he 100% deliberately editing against his topic ban. That is stupid at best. I'm afraid your defence of his actions and your "outrage" at his block is something we've all heard far too many times before. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:31, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

  • If you can't engage with me civilly, then please stay off my talk page. No, I am not interested in meta discussions about what is and is not civil. Further, I have no interest in re-engaging in a discussion with you regarding Alan, as I noted 2.5 years ago. Thank you. Goodbye. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:48, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
And that is why neither Alan nor your pandering to him will ever gain traction. Your deliberate ignorance of his profligate and obvious attempts to goad the community is highly enlightening. Thank you too, and goodbye for some time, with luck! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
  • I am not going to engage you on this. Since I've said that multiple times now, to no effect, let me be crystal clear about this: STAY OFF MY TALK PAGE. To be even more clear; that means do NOT click "edit this page" at the top of this page, do NOT click "edit" next to any section header, and do NOT enter alt-shift-e. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:40, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Flags and swimmers[edit]

Hey, Hammer. Your efforts have not exactly been fruitless. As a result of previous discussions with you, practices were changed regarding the use of flag icons by WP:SWIMMING, a "national team" parameter was added and the instructions for Infobox swimmer were changed, and over 1400 American, Australian and Canadian Olympic swimmer articles have been edited to create a new consistent standard for the use of a single flag icon for Olympic swimmers who have represented their country in international competition. There's still a lot of work to be done: there are still 2700+ remaining swimmer articles need to be brought into compliance with the new standard -- a standard that is fully compliant with the current version of MOS:FLAG. In addition, redundant flags have been stripped from the succession boxes of most world record-holders (over use), and the locations of most swimming championships (inappropriate geographic use). I believe in the appropriate, but limited use of flags in a sporting context, and I would love to have your help in the subject area to further implement MOS:FLAG compliance. You won't be reverted and no one will say mean things to you. Promise. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:58, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

  • Related; have a look at this discussion (and if it's archived before you read it, hard link).
  • To the point; it pleases me that these changes were made, and I applaud you for taking point to fix the overarching problem in a way that makes logical sense. I'm not worried about being reverted or having mean things said of or to me. Lots of people say mean things to me; editors, admins, bureaucrats, even an arbcom member once. It's de rigueur here. WP:NPA is a meaningless policy. But, I digress... I think I'll pass on working through the 2700+. I'm glad to have made some contribution to the effort, even if I traipsed into the land of harshness in the process. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:22, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Yeah, Hammer, I saw the ANI and related MOS discussion; that's what prompted my comment here. As I have repeatedly said, I am an advocate for the appropriate, but limited use of flag icons for international sports -- not American college sports, MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL, etc. Now that the issue of a single flag in the infobox of Olympic athletes and others in international competition seems to have finally been resolved, I would like to see the other permitted uses better defined, and yes, overuse and abuse curtailed. When I see flags for airplane crash victims, dinosaur fossil locations, and NCAA tournament venues, it tells me that someone just doesn't get it. Of course, the most aggressive use of flags, as far as I have seen, is the grotesque overuse of icons in football/soccer articles; ironically, they don't use flags in player infoboxes, but insert them pretty much everywhere else. When I see 50 to 150 flags in a single article, especially when the flags are used for the same person or team multiple times, it tells me they just don't get it.
FYI, the WP:Tennis guys are stripping the flags from all tournament locations. They still use them too much, but it's progress. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:25, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Endearing commentary[edit]

fuck off cunt! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

  • Please sign your comments in the future with ~~~~. Thanks, --Hammersoft (talk) 18:14, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration case opening[edit]

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Technical 13. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Technical 13/Evidence. Please add your evidence by June 30, 2015, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Technical 13/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Liz Read! Talk! 01:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

You've got mail from Technical 13![edit]

Hello, Hammersoft. Please check your email – you've got mail!
Message added 15:58, 17 June 2015 (UTC). It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{YGM}} template.

{{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 15:58, 17 June 2015 (UTC)


If you don't ban the user above who made threats to Jeb Bush for more than 2 months,I will hack into your account and ban him myself. He should be off wikipedia for months and i will hack into your account to ban him. No way someone who made threats should be allowed to get back on wikipedia in '31 hours'.

Ban him or i will get another administrator or myself to — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexiusmaximus (talkcontribs) 16:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

  • I'm sorry your most recent visit to Wikipedia lasted only five minutes. Perhaps it did not give you time to understand that I am not an administrator and have no ability to ban an account. All the best, --Hammersoft (talk) 16:56, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
You get the most interesting talk page visitors, Hammersoft.
I was looking at your log page, it is most impressive. I wish I had kept track of my much more modest stats. I have less activity than you but it would now be a lot of work to put a list like that together. Liz Read! Talk! 19:56, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Why thank you! I put it together for defensive reasons some years ago due to observed behaviors. I'd seen people attacking others for supposedly not contributing to the project. I wanted to have something to refer to the next time somebody made that accusation against me (and it's happened before). Ironically, nobody has since I generated it. I maintain it now out of habit. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:00, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Simon Davies[edit]

I was just following instructions. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion#How_to_nominate_a_single_page_for_deletion — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pirlo's Spoon (talkcontribs) 19:27, 18 June 2015 (UTC)


I saw a minor edit war involving WP:NFCC#10c in the revision history of Assassination of Fred Hampton. It appears as though there are a couple photos that are also used in Fred Hampton. Would you mind taking a look when you have a few minutes? - Location (talk) 02:00, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Nomination of Richard Matt for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Richard Matt is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Richard Matt until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Coretheapple (talk) 14:35, 28 June 2015 (UTC)