User talk:Havis1

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Welcome and introduction[edit]

Hi, Havis1. This is NOT some automated's from a real person by golly! And this real person (that would be me), wants to say welcome to Wikipedia! I'm glad you've made an account! Thanks for joining; you're on your way to making some great contributions.

Because I've noticed you've just joined, I wanted to give you a few tips to get you started. If you have any questions, please talk to us. Any questions are fine, nothing is too silly (we've heard them all). Now, the tips below - hop on them - they should help you begin editing. Best of luck! JoeSmack Talk 17:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Yessss! You made an account! Totally sweet!
  • Anybody can edit; just go to an article and edit it. Be Bold, but please don't put silly stuff in - it will be removed very quickly, and will annoy people. Besides that, you shouldn't feel nervous or anything about a good-willed contribution. If you're concerned, talk to us.
  • When you're ready, start your first article using the Article Wizard. You don't HAVE to use it, but for your first article it really helps. It should be about something well-known, and it will need references. If you'd like more guidance, you guessed it, talk to us.

Good luck with editing; please drop me a line some time on my own talk page. (You'll want to sign your name with these four tildes ~~~~ when you leave something on a talk page to help know who you are!)

Once again, welcome to the fantastic world of Wikipedia!

--JoeSmack Talk 17:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

P.S. If you just feel like poking around, Wikipedia:Help is a good place to start. :)

That's me! Let's continue! :) JoeSmack Talk 17:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
You're doing great! Try using citation templates and sections. Wikipedia:Citation_templates / Wikipedia:Layout. JoeSmack Talk 23:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Correct! You can put anything on your watchlist, but actually i just had a tab open on my browser with your contributions from a few days ago. Your contribution page looks like this - Special:Contributions/Havis1. You can see mine too, easy as pie - Special:Contributions/JoeSmack. Using another article that is high quality and copying its feel is a great way to develop good stuff, so that's a very shrewd thing to do, you're right.
One thing you'll need to know however, is you cannot copy and paste info the IMS's website (which you pretty clearly did). That is a copyright violation, besides that it'd read like a website and not a wikipedia article. Definitely read through Wikipedia:Tutorial to get the hang of things too. JoeSmack Talk 03:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Alright, I've made a pass through it. Some notes: 'one true nature of teaching' or whatever, that phrase, is inherently non-neutral. See WP:NPOV for the neutral tone you'll have to adopt throughout editing on Wikipedia. We also don't want it to read like an ad, so I've nixed some of those moments. No external linking in the body helps too.
Joe, thanks for your thoughtful remarks and comments. I have read through some of the wiki rules, and understand a little better what is required. However, I don't understand why there can be no link to "International Montessori Accreditation Council (IMAC)" or "Character Teaching". It seems that if people want to find out more about these important aspects of IMS activity, they would reasonable want a place to see about it. So, I would like to see these links restored.Havis1 (talk) 15:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Now, you'll need more references. I put one where you need a ref, but you'll need more that aren't the same books from the 90's - anything more recent? Review reliable sources guidelines for more ideas. One ref you used multiple time and ref separately each - you don't need to do that, I've condensed it a little.
Thanks for the condensing of references. I'll look into "reliable sources" to reference the publications "MOntessori News" and "Montessori Observer". Both of these documents are archived with eric I believe. I suppose that would be one citation, since it is an official government site. Right? In truth, non-IMS sources of reference to IMS are limited, since it is not heavily discussed in the popular media. Havis1 (talk) 15:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)


The above image is shown as being your own work. I would guess that the copyright in the image in fact belongs to the IMS? It appears to be the same as the logo on the website (from apart from the fact that it is red instead of black)

You need to add the source of the image (website address) and provide evidence that you permit Wikipedia (or Commons in actual fact, as that is where it is) to use the image.

Please read carefully Copyright owners who submitted their own work to Wikipedia. There are two ways basically to give permission for this image to be used:

  1. A notice is placed on the IMS website saying that it can be used under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 and GFDL licence
  2. Using an e-mail address from the domain to contact the Wikimedia Foundation, granting permission to use the image.

If you are thinking of it being used as "fair use", then I must point out that fair use images cannot be put on Commons - they can be put on Wikipedia, but not Commons.

Regards, -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 00:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Is "Commons" the box where the logo appears?Havis1 (talk) 01:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
No, Wikimedia Commons (or simply Commons) is an online repository of images, sound and other multimedia files. It is a project of the Wikimedia Foundation, from which uploaded files can be used across all Wikimedia projects in all languages, including Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wikisource and Wikinews, or downloaded for offsite use.
You uploaded your image to Commons (here).-- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 02:10, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Incidently, I will check on the status of the file on Monday - if I feel the need, I will list it as a possible copyright problem. It appears to be a logo which is copyrighted to IMS, rather than to you personally. In either case, we really need official permission to use it on Commons - or it needs to be uploaded to Wikipedia under fair use. -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 14:56, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


May I suggest that you do the following two actions:

  1. Move your Sandbox to User:Havis1/International Montessori Society? This will make it easier to move it to the encyclopedia when it is ready. It would still be counted as a kind of sandbox, allowing you to work on it with some leeway - but not for copyright violations - while having a more useful name
  2. Copy (or move) all the comments from this page (from where I marked "I would copy from here down to to "Suggestion" to the draft article's talk page" to just above this section) to the talk page of the draft article. This will involve some tidying up indentation-wise. I feel that it would be useful to have these comments should you wish to use WP:Request for Feedback or move the article to main encyclopedia space.

If you agree with these, but are unsure how to go about doing it, let me know - I can either explain it, or do it for you. I could have done it any way, but it is generally considered a bit rude to change someone's user pages without their permission - unless required to for reason of copyright etc.

Regards, -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 15:49, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Phantom: I created the new sandbox with "IMS" like you said. I don't really understand what portion of these comments you think should go into the new "discussion-talk" portion. So, I would appreciate your doing it directly. OK?
I took out the logo section; too hard to understand the terms required. So, that settles that issue. I still have a few things to edit, of course. So, hang with me on this Havis1 (talk) 17:45, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the comments above (mainly the ones about notability, as that may be useful for future editors to find!) onto the talk page (User talk:Havis1/International Montessori Society). With the comments on the talk page, if the article is moved then the talk page will also be moved - and the comments will be available to see. Actually, the only problem with the infobox was the logo itself - the rest of the infobox is OK as it is.-- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 19:38, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Oh, there is one problem I can see with the way you did it - the copied version does not have the full history of the article - which we tend to prefer to keep! My suggestion would be to do the following:
  1. on the User:Havis1/International Montessori Society page, clear all the text, and have the line {{db-self|reason=to allow 'move' from [[User:Havis1/Sandbox]] to this page}} - this will ask an admin to delete the page. Do the same on User talk:Havis1/International Montessori Society
  2. When it has been deleted (or if I see it before you do, I'll do it), go to User:Havis1/Sandbox and click on Move at the top of the page. In the To new Title: box, type User:Havis1/International Montessori Society, and give the reason as something like "To move to a named subpage in preparation for eventual move to article space". Then it'll be sorted out!
If this is a problem, with your permission I can do the first bit as well - I'll just link to this conversation to show the admin that it is what you want! -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 19:38, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
I tried the "move" as you said. It wouldn't move. So, please take a look and tell me what I did wrong. Fix it if you can. Thanks. For now, I'll just keep editing on the sandbox page.Havis1 (talk) 20:52, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I obviously didn't explain it properly! We can't move it until the /International Montessori Society pages have been deleted. Once they have been, I will do the move for you - you continue editing the Sandbox until it's been moved - I will let you know on this page. -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 20:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
OK. So, the page has to be deleted entirely itself - not just the copy inside. Got it. I would like to know how to delete a page, just to learn more about this process. But if you would take care of the move at this point, that would be great. Learning is a step by step process. I feel like I'm making progress. I'll keep working on the sandbox page for now.Havis1 (talk) 21:28, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
To delete a page in your user space (i.e. User:Havis1/......), you need to request it to be deleted by an admin (you can't delete it yourself). Placing the "db-self" tag on the page meant that (in effect) a note was left where admins can see it saying "here is a page the author wants deleted". An admin came along and did that! Once they had deleted the old pages, we could move the Sandbox to it.
In actual fact, if you go to User:Havis1/Sandbox you will see that you still get to the article - but look closely: at the top it says "International Montessori Association" and below that, in smaller writing "Redirected from User:Havis1/sandbox" - it's not two copies of the same thing, the Sandbox link is just a pointer to the IMS one!
Anyway, I must go - contact me if you need any more help (although it'll have to wait until Monday, as I'm busy with the family - the weekend is the time for the kids, not Wikipedia!) -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 22:08, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment, as requested, on your Method article[edit]

The only issue that I can see is that your Montessori Materials and Curriculum section appears to focus entirely on the 0-6 plane. At the 6-12 plane (for example) there are several additional differentiated curriculum areas, as well as a great deal more material; and the Practical Life section, for one, is greatly altered or even eliminated. Is there a way to reflect these changes in the article, or at least to note more strongly that the materials and curriculum change radically based on the plane of development? -- MatthewDBA (talk) 16:11, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Matthew. thanks for comments. "Materials" at the elementary (6-12) level are more academic and, therefore, conventional in nature. The child no longer has an absorbent mind, so "hands on" activity serves a rather conventional purpose of academic learning. In fact, reading books, and abstract paper-pencil activities are more the common means of learning.
there is more to the "elementary level curriculum" when we speak about its contextual nature as being a sort of "cosmic education". For some, these are highly significant aspects of the Montessori method, but I don't see them as essential by any means. I'll look into adding a line or two more about curriculum at the elementary level anyway.

Havis1 (talk) 00:58, 7 January 2010 (UTC)