User talk:Herostratus

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Reversion of Removal of Questionable Citation For The Onion[edit]

Regarding your reversion of the edit noted here, please look at the “citation”; it is simply a click-bait blog that discusses “25 Years of The Onion Making Fun of Dentist Conventions.” You’ve got to be kidding me that should stand as a citation when the history—and founding—of The Onion is far from secretive and is very clearly discussed in detail in the publication’s history section itself. There are many publications that are not The New York Times used as citations. No need to add some desperate click-bait blog’s rehashing of information they most likely culled from this Wikipedia article itself. --SpyMagician (talk) 06:39, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

OK, fine, if you feel that strongly about it. But I mean, really:
  • You're not maintaining that the reference isn't true. If you were doubting the veracity of the ref that'd be one thing. But you're not.
  • And in every likelihood it is true: they are a business and they have no incentive to lie about this fact or to not care if they get their facts wrong. It's not just some random person's blog but a page of a websiste that appears to be a thriving business that has a professionaly-staffed website. They may very well have another set of eyes (or more) going over these pages, besides the writer.
So you just don't like the source. But fine, maybe you're right so I'm not going to argue about this. I'll tag it for {{citation needed}} and probably we can get a better ref that way. Herostratus (talk) 17:34, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Utterly unbelievable logic here. I “don’t feel strongly” past two solid facts: The site used as a citation is very clearly a click-bait site that just compiled a list of “dentist convention” articles from The Onion and that’s it. Within the article itself there is utterly no citation whatsoever of where that odd “Aug. 29, 1988” date came from and all “sources” are just cited arbitrarily from other sites. But your claim of “…but a page of a websiste that appears to be a thriving business that has a professionaly-staffed website.” is past belief. It’s not. It takes two seconds for anyone in the world to launch a blog, add tons of affiliate ad accounts and suddenly become a website. That does not mean they can be considered a source of valid information. Especially when the core of their articles is just a list of items designed to be clickbait. Simple as that. And again, you want solid citations from legitimate sources, guess what? Scroll down in the article itself which is filled with citations. Simple as that. --SpyMagician (talk) 18:32, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Why are you continuing to argue the point when I'm not even fighting you? You repeat "click-bait" as some kine of mantra as if it has some kind of meaning. It doesn't, it's just a random pejorative that doesn't tell anything about the reliability of the ref. I agreed with with you to allow removal of the ref and tagging it as uncited instead. As to the rest, let's just agree to disagree and move on, colleague. Herostratus (talk) 18:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
I’m “arguing” with you since utterly anyone with any basic sense of how citations work in the world—on Wikipedia and elsewhere—can logically deduce that a website that has a zillion ads pop up, provides no sources and just provides an on “25 of something” list is not a reliable source. The idea that someone who claims to have been editing on Wikipedia since 2005 yet somehow defends a horrible citation like that really baffles me. So I need to personally state your POV on this matter is not only entirely wrong, that I am fairly confident if your POV were to be brought up with other Wikipedia editors who have deeper experience than the both of us, you will still be proven solidly wrong. You might want to step back and realize what citations are, what proper sources are and why they are valuable to Wikipedia. Encouraging the use of crappy sources results in crappy content. --SpyMagician (talk) 18:43, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Well, I dunno. "Smartmeetings" seems to be a legit business. It doesn't look like its run out of somebody's basement, although you never know. I'm not sure what your point is about them being unreliable. Yes they're a commercial site, but their commercial interest doesn't extent to the content in question. In other words, they have not commercial interest in lying about when the Onion was founded. There's no benefit to them, AFAIK, in making the Onion to appear to have been founded earlier or later than it actually was.
Right? Can we agree on that? Hopefully we can agree on that.
OK, moving on, how carefully are their facts checked? Probably not very carefully is my guess. although it's hard to know for sure. They probably don't have a separate editor going over the material checking every fact. They might. This does not appear to be a one-person operation. It might be a ten-person operation though, I don't know. In any case, let's assume there's not a rigorous fact-checking operation, so we're thrown back on the writer. Well the writer is the organization ("Smart Meetings"). So we've granted that they don't have an incentive to lie on purpose. But do they have an incentive to not care whether or their facts are right or not, or do they lack the competence to know how to determine if their facts are right or not?
I don't know. I doubt that they'd just pull "Aug. 29, 1988" completely out of their hat, as that sort of approach to facts, if pursued generally, would probably not be a good business practice, overall, and they would eventually go out of business (if its an organizational approach) or be fired (if its an individual writers approach). This is true of newspapers and other sources we use.
So they probably got the info somewhere. They seem to be a functioning organization, staying in business, so they probably have some level of competence to tell shit from shinola, so to speak. So my guess is its not complete nonsense. It's better than nothing which was your preference, and sufficient to support the assertion subject to a cry for a {{better source}}. I see that you did add a citation, which is the desired outcome. Your citation is to an entity called Paste Magazine. If Paste is a print magazine, great, but if its just online -- which anybody can make an online website in 15 minutes, right? -- I don't know if it's better ref than the previous one. Probably is. These things are hard to know for sure.
BTW a lot of this drawn from Wikipedia:Reliable sources checklist, which I wrote and which you might want to read through before coming to people's talk pages and slinging unfounded insults. Herostratus (talk) 19:16, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Quick question[edit]

Hope you don't mind that I'm posting this here, but I've noticed a few of your responses at WP:HD and figured you might be able to help with this. In a WikiProject, I started an informal RfC to get feedback from other WikiProject members. Is there an alert bot or some other method I can use to send a notification of the talk page discussion to all of the WikiProject members? The number of users we're talking about here is relatively small (less than a 100), and so I could do this by hand, but it would be nice if there was an automated way in place already. I know when a Newsletter is created, for example, notifications to all members are sent out. I was hoping to replicate this for a particular talk page discussion. Thanks in advance. --GoneIn60 (talk) 23:38, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Of course I don't mind. No there's no automated bot that I know of. We're probably kind of leery of having bots under individual control that send automated messages to talk pages -- it could be seen as a form of spamming. Presumably active project members are watching the project talk page. Herostratus (talk) 07:30, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. I completely understand the point about "spamming". After digging through my talk page history, I found that one of the project members used EdwardsBot (diff) to send out the Newsletter. Guess I could look into that if needed, or not since it's no longer active! Thanks again. --GoneIn60 (talk) 12:29, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Iraq national team in 2014 removal request[edit]

Hi,

I wanted to delete all the national team pages because I merged it into one page to keep it simpler to manage:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_national_football_team_records_and_statistics

If you would like to help me deleting the other pages, I would be grateful.

I responded on your talk page, to the effect that you can just make the existing pages be redirects rather than deleting them. Herostratus (talk) 19:55, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks bro! You too Steel Dogg (talk) 08:29, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Taki's Imperial Japanese Army Page[edit]

I saw you had a query as to this website when you used it as a source recently. It is considered RS given armor historian Steven Zaloga used it as a source for his 2007 book Japanese Tanks 1939–45 and mentions it on page 43, that the website is good for its "extensive coverage of Japanese tanks and tank history". Also, "Taki" is Akira Takizawa, co-author of the 2008 book: World War II Japanese Tank Tactics, Osprey Publishing. Kierzek (talk) 23:05, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh OK. Did not know this, so its probably OK to remove the "better source needed" tag. Herostratus (talk) 02:00, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
I believe so based on the expert opinion of Zaloga and the fact the gentleman is a published author on the subject by a known publishing house. Kierzek (talk) 12:20, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
OK. Herostratus (talk) 17:15, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Template talk:Infobox organization[edit]

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Template talk:Infobox organization. Legobot (talk) 04:24, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Pull quotes[edit]

Regarding Template talk:Pull quote#Request for comments on use and documentation, I never quite understood why the MOS is so adamant on this issue, it even uses strong word like "especially avoid". Surely something important was at stake. I think it would be worth to find out what exactly. In the meantime, it's interesting to note that the mobile version of Wikipedia renders {{quote}} with decorative quote marks! (black instead of the blueish of {{Pull quote}} but otherwise almost identical) – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 22:57, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

About the mobile version: huh, but then why not. It's a typical and functional way to show that it's a quote, after all. Well I hope you will Support the change over at the RfC. And no, as far as I know the reason for the proscription against using quotation marks is just that someone way back in the beginning decided we needed them just for pull quotes. It's just habit and tradition at this point. Herostratus (talk) 00:00, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
I'll probably stay neutral. I've always followed the MOS and template documentations, whatever they say. If those change, I'll change. And thank you for incorporating the MOS bit into the RFC, as well as that observation on mobile Wikipedia above. I think it's valid evidence for those who wish to form an opinion on this. – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 00:08, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Well but what? Always following the MOS and documentation is not a reason for not taking a position on a change to the MOS. Right? If you're a stickler for following the MOS, you should note that there in September 2011 there were 17,000+ uses of {{cquote}} (probably more now, I don't know how to get the figures), and all of them (or 99%) were in violation of the MOS. Don't you want the MOS to reflect actual usage? Either way, since you've take the time to look into the question, why not take a stand. We need a supermajority to bring the MOS into line with practice, and there will doubtless be Oppose votes. Herostratus (talk) 00:16, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
The reason, aside from the substance of the proposal and the problems it presents and would worsen, my reaction again the RfC was so strong was because of it's venue and nature. The proper way to change a guideline is to go to the guideline page and make a case for why consensus can change, not to try an end-run around consensus by hosting an anti-guideline RfC at a talk page frequented by no one but huuuge fans of abusing the template in question for decorative purposes. This is basically no different from trying to change some other guideline via a back channel, e.g. trying to change WP:RS and its admonition against treating unpublished manuscripts as reliable sources by hosting an RfC to push for this change at Template talk:Cite arXiv, on the basis that this template has been [mis!-]used thousands of times to do so. In reality we have the template for a completely different and uncommon purpose, namely providing convenience links to archived ("arXiv'ed"?) pre-press copies of papers that have been published in reputable journals, but whose "official" copies are behind paywalls). Your case and that hypothetical case are actually rather closely parallel, in multiple ways. The fact that we've retained pull quote templates, specifically documented for use only as pull quote templates, does not mean that abuse of them for decorative and misleading purposes is magically permissible just because it's been hard to stop people from doing it. There are technical solutions to both problems, e.g. making {{Cite arXiv}} throw an error if it is not used in conjunction with another citation template, to the RS journal or book, inside the same <ref>...</ref>, and using a namespace test to permit the decorate quote templates on user and projectpages but not in articles, since there is increasing evidence of consensus that WP should not be using actual pull quotes in articles at all, a point I see below that you seem to agree with.

Anyway, my point was not to "get into it" with you on a personal level. I just have serious concerns about a) the desire for WP to look better being used as an excuse to just let anything that someone thinks "is attractive" be permitted regardless of the fallout (see again bottom of my talk page for detailed analysis of why these templates are often content-harmful, violate core content policies, and end up being "reader-hateful" instead of reader-friendly); b) the WP:PROCESS problem of trying to get around consensuses people don't like with WP:LOCALCONSENSUS stuff (even if not intentional; I make no allegation that you're WP:GAMING at all); and c) the general emboldening effect such activities have toward the "let chaos reign" and "fuck the MoS" and "down with all rules" contingent (whose ranks have swollen as WP attracts a "third wave" of editors, almost all millennials who grew up on blogging and "reality" TV, the invasion of advertising and PR into every possible cranny, and shamelessly biased news, and who were not around for WP's formative years and the seriousness with which things like NPOV are taken, in very subtle ways missed by noobs). I share your frustration with the fact that trying to change a guideline at the guideline's own talk page is difficult and slow; I've been trying to fix a policy conflict at WP:MEDRS for about two years. Each time I bring it up, I get slightly more traction, and I expect that it will be resolved some time in 2017 or 2018, despite the fact that it should have been fixed in 2014 (or never arisen at all). In this quote templates case, there's not even a policy conflict to resolve, just an "I want WP to look different/more jazzy, and to have a more freewheeling layout" desire, which is a harder sell, especially if going that route may create policy conflicts.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  19:54, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

OK! It's OK. I've been around the track, I'm not bothered by any of this. One point: I was not trying an end-run around WP:MOS! I didn't even know the MOS mentioned the issue, I had forgotten about PW:BLOCKQUOTE... and as soon as this was pointed out, I posted a prominent notice at the MOS talk page pointing to the RfC. Ideally the discussion would have been at the MOS talk page, I agree. However, since 1) I already started it at the template talk page, and 2) after all most of the proposed changes are to the template, and 3) a pointer to the RfC was quickly posted at the MOS talk page, I think it would just have caused confusion to try to move it, and it's OK where it is, with the pointer in place? Hope you agree.
As to the merits, a lot of it does come down to opinion. I look forward to looking at your points in detail (soon, not right now) and engaging in no-holds-barred debate on the merits. Herostratus (talk) 20:09, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Coolio, and yes, I retract "trying"; that does seem to imply intent when I say I'm not trying to imply intent. Just sloppy wording. Despite the length, I wrote that on my way out the door to work (I type really, really fast).  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  02:53, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Not quite pull quotes[edit]

Rather than clog up your RfC, I thought I'd just mention to you here an example of pull quotes being used at Philippe I, Duke of Orléans #Homosexuality. Except that it doesn't use the {{pull quote}} template; it uses a custom 1986 box. Still a pull quote, though. --RexxS (talk) 15:53, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Right. Huh. Well, as I said, I'm not here to preclude or prevent the possibility of a rare occasional pull quote, if another editor in his wisdom deems it suitable, and by "never used for actual pull quotes" I mean "never, within a rounding error (that is, less than 0.5% if instances)". I myself would question whether using the quote twice in the article like this is helpful, but I haven't studied the matter.
Heh, it's amusing that the one use (so far) that we've seen of pull quotes doesn't use {{tl}pull quote}}... Herostratus (talk) 16:16, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

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DYK nomination of Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah[edit]

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RfC about quotation boxes.[edit]

Hello Herostatus. This is just a message to let you know that I have recently initiated a 'support/opposition' section at the RfC discussing the issues surrounding the use of "quote boxes" (here). As you previously expressed a view on this issue over at the MoS talk page several days ago, you may wish to reiterate your opinion in a 'support/oppose' format. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:55, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes I saw that, OK. Herostratus (talk) 22:09, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

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In all that, did you see my link?[edit]

I didn't. To the extent that it's a complete rewrite of the existing article (I haven't done a text comparision but it look it: the section are all different for instance) this makes it very hard to review. Generally, we work with change-a-paragraph-here and add-or-delete-a-couple-sentences-there. One reason being that a complete rewrite discards the previous work (which doesn't appear called for in this case). I like to build on existing work. There are other reasons... it's much easier for a crowdsourced article to ensure that there's no original research I think...
Anyway I don't have to refs to really check your material. I'll take a look at some if I can... Herostratus (talk) 19:27, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
I have almost all of the sources.... The mainspace article is crap. It's not just kinda crappy; it's top-to-bottom crap. Starting all over again is the only feasible way. Having said that, the topic at hand is HUGE, as I indicated earlier. That famine was a head-on collision of a number of different forces that had been building for at least several decades. And to make matters worse, no one really even knows the real reason, because no one was carefully recording events. Was it FAD or FEE? No one knows! No one knows how much damage the brown spot disease did to the crops. That sort of damage is not readily visible to the casual observer; the disease doesn't make rice plants melt into dust. It makes them far less productive (but they are still standing there). So if anyone just kinda drives by in a car or glances from a roadside a few yards away, they'll think, hey, the crop wasn't hurt. And on and on and on. There are MANY facets to this problem... I have only discussed one here...  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 19:36, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Well... OK. I mean I don't have the expertise or sources or really the acuity gainsay you... we'll have to see how it plays out...
I'm skeptical. The article doesn't look like crap. I'm also skeptical of " No one knows! (but I do)". If truly "No one knows!" then just leave it out.
The whole thing makes me nervous that you're approaching this as a historian or professor would. That means original research. I'd rather see a good roundup of the current mainstream beliefs about the matter. Herostratus (talk) 21:01, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

(undent) I didn't say "No one knows (but I do)." I said, "No one knows, including me... but I am not currently aware of any Wikipedians who seem to have a clue about the very large scope of this issue (though of course all or at east most scholars in the field do). As for WP:OR, geez, I've been around for 10 calendar years (active seven), have six FAs, have very often participated in FAC, etc. That doesn't mean my poop doesn't smell, but hopefully it should mean that I do know what WP:OR is. I am trying to round up current beliefs... The article is crap because it elides many important issues, and spends a lot of time gurgling on about moderately important ones... and because over its history various editors have muddled it up with their emphases on at least three different hobbyhorses... etc. If you actually wanna engage this topic, I'm happy to email you any source that I currently have. I expect this article to be in my sandbox (not mainspace) at least a couple more months. Seriously.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 21:20, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

OK fine, right, I believe you. Herostratus (talk) 21:22, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
If you wanna work on this, drop me a line. Always welcome. Do you want me to try to answer your questions on the article's talk? I can try, but the main problem withe the text is not any one detail.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 21:25, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Well, it's not in my wheelhouse to work on stuff like this -- I have a short attention span and have trouble digging deep into a subject. I also don't have the refs of course. I'll help where I can. If you have a specific thing I can do, I'll do if able.
No you don't need to answer the questions. Don't worry about it. Herostratus (talk) 15:03, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Ethereum[edit]

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failed verification in Antoine (musician)[edit]

Hello Herostratus. I can't find support for "He was graduated from the Lycée Champollion in Grenoble, excelling in advanced mathematics." in the self-sourced bio referenced. I don't know much French so perhaps you can help me out here. I'm not finding any mention of mathematics. Thanks Gab4gab (talk) 17:03, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Huh. You're right. I breezed past "I was a brilliant student, earning a full scholarship" without noting that it didn't mention math specifically. I did have another source indicating that, but I can't find it anymore... don't know why I didn't use it. But OK you are right. Herostratus (talk) 20:30, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia email re Newspapers.com signup[edit]

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Seth Rich[edit]

Hi I'm surprised you would undo @Jytdog:'s removal. This seems to violate the ARBAP2 ruling. Please consider a self-revert and continuing discussion on talk. SPECIFICO talk 01:23, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with ARBAP2. What is it? The edit summary was "this is NYC's tabloid. Not the kind of source we want in a controversial article". But the New York Daily News is a reasonably respectable paper AFAIK. It's just a regular newspaper I believe. It's printed in a tabloid format, but so? It's not tabloid journalism and I've never heard anyone say it is before this. If it was a recent addition and reverted perWP:BRD, that's different. But that's not what the summary says, If ARBAP2 says "Jytdog can delete any sources he wants to and can't be gainsaid" that's different. Does it? Herostratus (talk) 01:42, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Of course it's recent. The whole article is recent. I'll post the ARBAP2 details here FYI. They are for your information and should not be taken as an accusation. I think you should reverse your undo of Jytdog. You seem to be saying that it's OK since you're right and he's wrong, but of course that's the stuff of edit wars, not resolution. SPECIFICO talk 03:05, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
I don't know if I'm right (neither does he) but I think I probably am. I mean, I recently thought the Daily Telegraph was a poor source, I took it Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, and I learned that it wasn't a poor source, and fine.
Similarly, Jytdog can open a discussion about whether the the New York Daily News is a good source. Either on the article talk page, or I would recommend at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. I think he'll be told it's an OK source -- it is after a mainstream major newspaper in a very large city and a large circulation with AFAIK decent fact-checking and reputation for veracity -- but maybe I'm wrong. I'm willing to find out.
What I mean by "new" is, if you think the material was inserted recently enough that it's subject to WP:BRD than fine, revert it. However, WP:BRD is only useful for reverting to a previously existing stable version, and if there isn't one... I dunno. Read the rule.
OK thanks for the pointer to the ArbCom thing. I guess you can bring me up on charges if you want to. I'm perfectly willing to take the New York Daily News to the RS Noticeboard, but I just did one of those and I don't think I should have to all the heavy lifting. You do it. Herostratus (talk) 03:48, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

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