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Occupation of Palestine
Please see my question at Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Occupation_of_Palestine#Tally: Rephrasing the question -- Jmabel 01:27, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)
Hi Buff, here's a proposal I outlined at Talk:Occupation of Palestine.Please tell me what you think about it.
I very much oppose the creation of alternative articles. True, it will be very difficult to write a single article that will still be readable and not just a point-counterpoint list. But the whole point of the NPOV policy is to avoid the proliferation of alternative articles. If it happens for Israel//Palestine, then it will set a precedent to be imitated on all controversial topics. Also, if there are alternative Israel//Palestine articles, they will each tend to become far more POV than they are now. I think that we need to write an article that manages to incorporate fair descriptions of the conflicting POVs into one single narrative. This would be very hard work, and it would require a lot of editors on this topic to open their minds and change their intransigeant stance, but if we succeed, it would be a very big achievement, and (at the risk of sounding a bit pompous now) I think it might actually contribute to a genuine peace process.
On the other hand you are right that it is much easier to start fresh. Also, all attempts to improve tha current Israel//Palestine articles are pretty futile, because they always descend into bickering about details. We really need to focus on the bigger picture, that's essential to writing a readable and enlightening article. I think Buff has given us a good outline of points of that bigger picture. So here is what I suggest:
- Those who share a similar critique of the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict article get together and make a thorough analysis of where that article fails ;
- We make a list of the main points where the article fails, as well as a list of what we can keep ;
- Those who agree with the criticisms list get together and start a draft for a completely new article (at this point, those who disagree with the criticisms would not be allowed to pick it apart through the usual bickering about the details) ;
- This new draft article would be based on Buffs outline above as well as the two lists from the current article ;
- Only after we finish with the new draft do we ask those who defend the status quo of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict article to contribute and edit the draft, and adapt the broad narrative to incorporate their views - but edits by those (from both sides) who do not try to engage constructively will be rigorously reverted ;
- When the draft has stabilised somewhat, we make it into the new Israeli-Palestinian conflict article.
In a nutshell, the strategy I propose for writing a NPOV Israel//Palestine consists of:
- hammering out a narrative supported by a broad consensus - when we have achieved that it won't be too difficult to deal with the details
- thereby marginalising those who refuse productive co-operation and try to destroy a consensus-based narrative (which has always been the aim of the NPOV policy)
Tell me what you think of this. - pir 13:22, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Your plan sounds fine. I'm not sure that it'll work as it can be quickly derailed by extremists -- Wikipedia allows anyone to veto articles, regardless of facts or consensus. I'll post more on the article Talk page. HistoryBuffEr 19:20, 2004 Oct 11 (UTC)
Hello Buff, if you really want to write a decent article on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, you need to accept that your oponents view need to be included too. You will certainly be unable to force your view of the truth on Wikipedia. If I was you, I'd start by writing a complete draft article on your own user page, negotiate with the Zionist faction so that it is acceptable to them and then replace the main article with the new one. Alternatively, one solution might be to have two alternative versions of the same article, although the former would be preferable. Good luck! - pir 16:14, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Actually, as they redirected the article several times, history of what happened is missing. See Original Talk:Occupation of Palestine for what really happened: I invited everyone to create an NPOV version.
- In short: I copied text from Occupation of Palestine to new Occupations of Palestine and posted a blank skeleton to Occupation of Palestine for everyone to edit. However, instead of filling in the blanks, the extremists redirected the article to Occupations of Palestine several times, then created a new article Struggle over Palestine and redirected Occupation of Palestine there, then reverted and redirected several more times.
- The reason Occupation of Palestine has my (quick and dirty) draft in it is that I was adding that between their redirects and reverts hoping to encourage other editors to join in editing. I have also posted the article on "Pages needed attention" for this purpose.
- The article is now redirected by User:Gadykozma and protected by someone who left no trace. Some admin should reverse this one-sided decision on a controversial article.
- HistoryBuffEr 17:58, 2004 Oct 25 (UTC)
I have edited the paragraph refering to the term Zionist in the article [[Holocaust denial examined]. Please review since you have stated a problem with the phrasing in the past.
Also, please read the Wikipedia help pages on what the NPOV tag actually means and where it should be used -- the article necessarily has a POV in because of its titling. Actual rebuttals should either be in an article on Holocaust denial or as "however"s in the article body itself. --MtB 20:59, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
FWIW, I'd like to point out that you yourself use the term "Zionistas" as a type of insult. Would you prefer that the Wikipedia be updated to reflect your personal terminology? As in "Heh, these paranoid Zionistas need to make up their mind whether it's the whole world that is after them or it's just one sock-puppet."
- Thanks, your rephrasing makes the "Zionist" usage description more balanced. I'll remove my NPOV objection, subject to your version remaining in the article.
- P.S: Like many others, I use the term "Zionist" (usually with "extremist" as a suffix) as a matter-of-fact description for those with extreme nationalist Israel-first/only views; the adjective "extreme/ist" should be assumed where omitted for brevity (though with the future of 2 peoples at stake, Zionism is becoming an inherently extremist ideology.)
- HistoryBuffEr 22:05, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, your case is not an exception.
- Once a partisan creates a POV titled article s/he has framed the issue and trying to NPOV it within the article is a battle already lost. POV titled articles should be Redirected to an NPOV article (or Deleted), but those same partisans are likely to block that. As everyone has veto power here, what is "neutral" is decided by the most determined -- usually the extremists. NPOV for most here means, of course, their own POV. In short:
- The commandment #1 here is: "Zealots shall inherit Wikipedia", so the choice is: become one or give up.
- HistoryBuffEr 17:58, 2004 Nov 3 (UTC)
I have attempted a compromise version of Munich Massacre that incorporates the best parts of both versions. Improvements are welcome, but I would like to humbly ask that you not do a blanket revert, as you would be reverting good edits as well as bad. Thanks! – Quadell (talk) (help)[] 22:21, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
- Deal, provided that POV pushers agree not to revert either. HistoryBuffEr 00:51, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)
Your notice about the neutrality of the Suha Arafat article has been there nearly a week, without a specific remarks about where it is POV. I wrote most of it, so I feel rather attached to it as it is my first article. I certainly want anything that could be seen as wrongly pro or anti Palestinian removed and would welcome your contribution as you seem to know a great deal about the issues. I propose to remove the POV notice if I don't get any response from anyone about this but will wait if you wish while we sort it out. Terry Whitlam 03:05, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- OK, I'll post objections on the article Talk page. HistoryBuffEr 03:07, 2004 Nov 16 (UTC)
- Thanks, I think everything's in order now, please let me know if otherwise. You responded very quickly and thoughtfully and the article is much better because of it. Terry Whitlam 09:00, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks again, I hope everyone is as helpful an editor as you are. You're terrific. Terry Whitlam 11:04, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hi! Please check out WP:USERPAGE for what is and isn't acceptable for one to have on one's userpage. You were originally blocked by an admin, apparently for your userpage, but I figured it was best to simply approach you directly and ask you to check out the bluelink and try to keep your userpage in a way that adheres to Wikipedia's guidelines. You've been unblocked, so hopefully we'll be able to have you as a productive volunteer! Cheers gaillimhConas tá tú? 04:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- You have been reblocked for reposting the content of your userpage into your user talk page. It is obvious that you are no longer here to contribute to the project and are only here to air what you feel are its errors and whatnot. If you persist upon using this page to perform what you had used your userpage for, I may protect it against your edits and you will have to contact the unblocking mailing list for further assistance if you truly wish to contribute.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 23:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)