User talk:Htonl

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While adding to Durban North I noticed that it had several suburbs, and that it was separate from Durban, not a suburb of it, but a suburb(?) of greater Durban. If you have an idea what the status of a place like Durban North would be, I would be interested to know. It may affect the Durban template that you created. JMK (talk) 22:02, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

There's no official status that distinguishes between cities, towns, suburbs and so on, so giving a particular name is always going to be a bit arbitraty. In my opinion, it would be most accurate to describe Durban North as a region of Durban, consisting of a number of suburbs. The article says "just north of Durban", implying that it is separate from Durban, but I think it would make more sence to say "just north of Durban CBD". - htonl (talk) 12:35, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
That's good to know, thanks. JMK (talk) 12:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia user template on OpenStreetMap[edit]

Hello -- please consider adding to your OSM user page. See the section for some information on reciprocal representation. As of this writing, there are only 3 people in . --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 05:29, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Same-sex marriage in the United Kingdom#Requested move[edit]

Could you give your opinion? Ron 1987 (talk) 10:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

WP South Africa in the Signpost[edit]

The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject South Africa for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. –Mabeenot (talk) 06:45, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Recent Changes[edit]

Refer to comments to Binketernet.

Elections in the Boer states[edit]

You might remember some discussion wie had at Number 57's talk page on elections in the minor Boer states. I created a small bibliography - there are only few books on that minor states - at de:Burenrepubliken#Einzelne_Staaten. Most of them are only available in South Africa, of course. Do you have access to some of them?--Antemister (talk) 09:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

M Routes[edit]

Hi Htonl, although I do contribute sporadically to South African articles I'm rarely logged in... I recently added to an article you wrote a lot of: It seems you're actually the guy who wrote If so that's just the greatest thing ever!!! I've so desperately wanted and sought more up-to-date population stats for towns and cities and not just Municipalities!!! That website is incredible!!!

In case you're wondering, yes there is a call for help coming... I created two more route articles: They're not sourced at all, which is one problem. Are they notifiable enough for Wikipedia is another. In seems that although there's not a lot of info at all, what there is is conflicting for PE's M6, 14, 16, 19, 20, 21. Some of the R333, R334, R367, and R368 may/may not have been re-signed!? Similarly it seems there are no street maps of Mdantsane anywhere - from what I gather the M16 and M17 are there. The M20 exists (I've seen signs) but I can't find proof...

(Cape Town, Bloemfontein, Welkom, Pietermaritzburg, Durban, Johannesburg/Ekhuruleni and Pretoria also have M routes...) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garble (talkcontribs) 19:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately the only information I have access to about M routes (except for those in Cape Town, where I can see the signs as I drive around) is the stuff that has published. The Trig. Survey maps show the designations of N and R routes, but they don't show M routes. You could maybe write to the metro councils and ask if they have a list? (And yes, I am the author of that census website.) - htonl (talk) 16:17, 12 April 2013 (UTC) is far from complete and has mistakes This one too: (I'm not claiming what I've put up is error free, just that all the sources contradict one another, in East London even the street signs disagree, e.g. the M18). I've compiled a list for Pretoria that is somewhat complete using my Mapstudio book, google maps and, in one case Google Street view! (I knew it was an M route even if it wasn't in the atlas or google so I aimed it at a street corner with a sign!)

Writing to the municipality is certainly an idea, provided I find someone helpful! They definitely use them in official sources, I found references to East London's M16 and Pretoria's M42 that way... They also appear in the government Gazetteer, though not in a very helpful form...

Garble (talk) 10:53, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

List of heads of state of South Africa[edit]

Thank you for make a few changes. I will be improving the African nations that the British monarch which has been head of state of an African nation.

These will improve in time:

Mr Hall of England (talk) 19:44, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Census stats[edit]

Have a look at the demarcated area for Klipplaat: Notice the urban area that is not included in the population stats. I can find many similar examples. Is there any way to make the data more reliable or is it a flaw of the 2001 census itself? (talk) 14:46, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

In that particular case that area is included in a separate "main place" named Wongalethu. Unfortunately the 2001 Census has a bad habit of demarcating "black" areas as separate main places under separate names. But in general, the geographic flaws are flaws of the census itself; the website reflects the most detailed data that Stats SA has made available. - htonl (talk) 16:12, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I was trying to find a name that fit. Before your website, it was impossible to find population stats other than for local municipalities / district municipalites. I'm guessing those divisions haven't been updated since apartheid when those black areas were separated municipally... Would it not be a good idea to where appropriate combine the two (or more in some case) locations. I realise there will be cases that are not cut-and-dried. Should e.g. Mdantsane's population be separate or included with East London's? (talk) 16:29, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not going to change that information on the website, since the website is intended to provide the data exactly as it comes from Stats SA. But for Wikipedia it definitely makes sense in most cases to include the "township" areas when listing the population of towns/cities. The template that automatically fills out demographic information for South African towns ({{Infobox South African town}}) doesn't support it, but I'm thinking of producing a tool that will produce a pre-filled-out {{Infobox settlement}} summing up multiple census places. But I'm not going to put too much work into it for the 2001 census because the 2011 census results for main- and subplaces are supposed to be coming out very soon. - htonl (talk) 16:34, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if that was unclear... I meant for Wikipedia. I think I came across a town where only the adjacent township's population was given (can't remember which), but if 2011 information is coming, you're right putting effort into it makes no sense! And that'd be awesome news! But a lot of work for you!!! (talk) 17:18, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry guys to butt in here, I know its not my place, but can we not just wait for the later censuses to include these black townships? Most settlements have already included former coloured and Indian townships and messing around with these townships isn't our place as we would be "picking" what belongs to what. Personally, being from Kempton Park, Tembisa is definitely not part of "Kempton park" and this is backed up by the census. I would just wait it out until the dictator ANC want to include black townships so every place in SA has a black majority. That is their plan after all. Bezuidenhout (talk) 14:38, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
In the metropolitan areas, as in the example of Kempton Park, the situation is different, and large townships like Tembisa are themselves commercial and transport nodes and count as towns of their own. I'm talking more about the situation in the country towns, where you mostly have one town with one township, which the Census has separate but actually form a single urban node. For example - this is an example I've dealt with before - take Bultfontein and Phahameng. That is clearly actually one single town - to the extent that "Census Bultfontein" actually surrounds "Census Phahameng". Any reasonable article about Bultfontein would include Phahameng. - htonl (talk) 14:59, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
OK, you have a good point, and the Bultfontein example pretty much goes for all towns in the Free State. But like I said this method will require a lot of "but what about this place" and a lot of unncesessary discussions when we can automatically just get all this info from a database. One such example is in the case of Welkom. I know like before you mentioned with Kempton Park that some townships are larger and therefore more established, but with Welkom do we also include Riebeeckstad, which lies next to Welkom's township, Thabong? Or is that another separate main place? Likewise Allenridge does, like every Free State town, have a black township (Nyakallong), but the census area for Allanridge doesn't "engulf" the township, only border it. And it is not a continuous urban area, so what do we say there when it's obviously Allanridge's Township? Bezuidenhout (talk) 15:15, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I (who am also the original anonymous) agree with you Bezuidenhout that Tembisa and Kempton Park are separate. However most of the smaller towns should be incorporated in some way. There are grey areas, like Mdantsane that I mentioned above and Soshanguve / Mapobane in Pretoria (versus Mamelodi and Atteridgeville that are undoubtedly a part of Pretoria). The fact that historically those residents were forcefully moved to the periphery of the town shouldn't preclude them from being counted in the town's population. I doubt the next census will be any more helpful in that regard as I think the ANC are ignoring entirely the concept of towns and focusing on Local/District Municipality populations? It's only htonl's work that means we get any sort of data at all from the 2001 census! It would be great if there was a source saying X is a township in town Y, but that won't always be easy. Another alternative is to have the population with township in parentheses and annotated as such. Garble (talk) 10:45, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Team Barnstar Hires.png The Teamwork Barnstar
Thanks for your help on various articles. I appreciate you correcting my mistakes without biting my head off. Helen (talk) 14:04, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

Thanks for the barnstar, you are too kind. I am honoured! Helen (talk) 18:50, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Screw you[edit] — Preceding unsigned comment added by GandalfakaTheWhite (talkcontribs) 20:43, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Hermanus External Links[edit]

Hi Honl I rolled back your 'clean up' of the External Links section on the Hermanus post, since it is perfectly in line with Wikipedia's External Links Guidelines at Wikipedia:EL.

Talk:Same-sex union legislation#Multiple entries for Chile[edit]

Could you give your opinion? Ron 1987 (talk) 14:12, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Two Strandfonteins[edit]

Just came across this. The map and population for Strandfontein describe the village on the west coast. The text describes the suburb of Cape Town mentioning the name is also that of a place on the west coast. These two should probably be disambiguated, but to what? Also, does the suburb warrant its own page? Garble (talk) 14:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


I thought, rather than burden you with the task, I'd fix the population for Reivilo. It seems to point to everything around the town but the town? Except I haven't managed to find the correct "place" on your website... Does it exist? Garble (talk) 14:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC) Windsorton is the same... Garble (talk) 14:19, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

For whatever reason, the town is actually recorded as Main place Boipelo. - htonl (talk) 15:39, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Windsorton is a different case, though. Windsorton itself is actually the less dense settlement along the river, which is included in the main place named Windsorton. The excluded area consists of Corn's Village and Kutlwano which are technically the townships of Windsorton. - htonl (talk) 15:42, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


Hey! I was told by the people at WikiProject South Africa that you could further improve the article for Gauteng! I've done a lot of extensive work to try and bring its standard up, but a little help from everybody will make the article better as a whole. :) Hope this message finds you well! Aleksandar Bulovic' (talk) 15:14, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Main place - Ritchie[edit]

Good day Adrian!

Can u please have a look here and here if Ritchie was not linkend twice by StatsSA in error. On the Wiki Ritchie shows up under Sol Plaatje Local Municipality and Siyancuma Local Municipality. I'm trying to get the correct one, to copy to af:Ritchie...

PS: I did read your previous argument that the error might have been caused by "Census 2001" themselves, not you!

Thanks anyway! Aliwal2012 (talk) 13:16, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

It looks like the Modder River and Riet River is the boundary between the two municipalities. The town of Ritchie itself is on the north bank, so the correct census palce is the one in Sol Plaatje (this one). The other one, in Siyancuma, is presumably named for Ritchie because it's adjacent to the town (maybe part of the common townlands in the old days). I've updated the Ritchie, Northern Cape article to use the correct census code. (Actually it should probably include Motswedimosa as well, I'll get to that in a minute.) - htonl (talk) 13:25, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your speedy reply & great help! Aliwal2012 (talk) 14:25, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

South Africa categories[edit]

I noticed you made a nomination about Category:1906 establishments in Cape Colony and several others. I thought you might be interested to know there is a discussion about Category:1906 in South Africa, that might heavily impact your nomination on the matter. You might want to comment on that discussion as well.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:26, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Do you mean this discussion of pre-1910 establishment categories? - htonl (talk) 09:05, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Consensus for Samesex marriage in USA.svɢ should SCOTUS decide H.v Perry on standing[edit]

I have made a proposal regarding the stripping of California, should the court reject Perry on the grounds that the plaintiffs had no standing to appeal, in which case, as I understand it, there could be much legal‐wrangling in California courts, and in the halls of Sacramento, over whether Judge Walker’s District Court ruling should apply statewide. I would much appreciate your comments on my proposal on the talkpage of Samesex_marriage_in_USA.svg. ― many thanks, Info por favor (talk) 19:07, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

List of heads of state of Greece[edit]

Could you help me with this article please? All I want to do is make the same as the South Africa page.

This is the template:

Mr Hall of England (talk) 09:00, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


I am doing the Ghana HoS on this page could you help me please.

Mr Hall of England (talk) 18:08, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


Hello again :)[edit]

Hey Htonl, I was wondering if you have time if you could create a map (or series of maps) showing the difference in languages from 2001-2011. E.g. the change in Zulu for each municipality? Thanks again, hope you're well :)Bezuidenhout (talk) 12:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I'll give it a go - I have quite a lot of other things to do now that I have the new census data, but I'll add that to my list. - htonl (talk) 13:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks again. Of course it isn't urgent, put it at the bottom ;) I've been following the SSM maps recently as well, exciting stuff :D Bezuidenhout (talk) 13:44, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Htonl: I am a researcher interested in studying population growth at ward levels. I came across your phantastic work for Wikipedia here, many thanks for your great public service. Would you be able by any chance to point me to a source where I could find an ESRI GIS map that shows election wards for 2001 and 2006? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 10:55, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I have copies of that data. You can download them at and - htonl (talk) 17:52, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Tireless Contributor Barnstar Hires.gif The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
For making the results of the 2011 South African census readily accessible to all, and so making the single greatest contribution to the project in recent months! Thank you again! eh bien mon prince (talk) 19:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Seconded. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:28, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks very much! - htonl (talk) 20:23, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Sol Plaatjie (sic) spelling in Infobox[edit]

Good morning to you. I spotted a misspelling in the Infobox for Kimberley which I attempted to fix - but for some reason the correction does not show up after saving it. I thought you might be able to advise on this - not least as a veteran corrector of "Plaatjie"! All the best. Blarcrean (talk) 03:59, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. It should be fixed now. - htonl (talk) 07:05, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. Blarcrean (talk) 21:20, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Category:Establishments in the Cape Colony by year[edit]

Category:Establishments in the Cape Colony by year, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Tim! (talk) 07:53, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I added the alternative proposition that the categories without the definite article should be renamed after you commented. Tim! (talk) 08:04, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Template:Metadata South Africa/mainplace/area[edit]

A tag has been placed on Template:Metadata South Africa/mainplace/area requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

If the template is intended to be substituted, please feel free to remove the speedy deletion tag and please consider putting a note on the template's page indicating that it must be substituted so as to avoid any future mistakes (<noinclude>{{substituted}}</noinclude>).

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page's talk page, where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. eh bien mon prince (talk) 16:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

List of heads of state of South Africa[edit]

I will accept what you have done but if you want to do what you have done with the article you can change the dates.

Mr Hall of England (talk) 16:52, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Special Barnstar Hires.png The Special Barnstar
Thank you for performing the magic that enabled the updating of census data results for places (way over my head), and for updating related articles. HelenOnline 16:37, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
• Seconded. Now for ditto on the af:wiki! Aliwal2012 (talk) 13:48, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

An odd selection[edit]

About this edit: I just picked the seat of every district, in the hope that they would be the most important towns in the province. I know it's hardly accurate, but I have few ways to compare population, density etc among the census places. Which reminds me of something I had meant to ask for a while: do you have on your website a spreadsheet with all the statistics for main- and sub-places, as there was one for 2001? If so, could you pass me a link?--eh bien mon prince (talk) 23:19, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see! I had wondered what approach had come up with Moorreesburg, but I didn't think of that. It seems to come out OK for some of the other provinces, but for the WC it definitely doesn't! The spreadsheets you want are at and - htonl (talk) 23:55, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the links!--eh bien mon prince (talk) 13:44, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Your edit in Education in South Africa[edit]

Hello. I don't really care about this, but I might as well say it... sections 236 and 237 of the interim constitution does not mandate any changes in the education department. Sure, the changes to the education department were not contradictory to the interim constitution (and to those sections) but that does not mean that the changes were made "in terms of" those sections. Saying "in terms of" implies that the constitution mandated the change, i.e. stipulated that the change must be made. But in fact, those sections simply explain what must happen until such time as changes are made. The Mandela government decided to change it, and it was their right to change it, but their decision to do wasn't based on or required by sections 236 and 237 of the interim constitution. Deciding to deliberately mention the interim constitution in that article is (in my humble opinion) just playing politics. You don't have to reply to this :-) -- leuce (talk) 18:42, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, I think section 237(1)(a)(ii) does mandate a restructuring of the education departments. "All institutions referred to in section 236(1) [...] shall as soon as is possible after the commencement of this Constitution be rationalised with a view to establishing within the public service contemplated in section 212(1) [...] an effective administration for each province to deal with matters within the jurisdiction of each provincial government referred to in section 235(5)(b)." Primary and secondary education were matters within the jurisdiction of the provincial governments, so the text of that section required the reorganization of the previous education departments into nine provincial education departments. Secondly, the Interim Constitution of course prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, so the government was constitutionally required to get rid of separate education departments for different races.
Thirdly, it doesn't matter anyway because "in terms of" doesn't, as I understand it, mean "as required by". It means something more like "under the powers granted by". If someone says (to take a different legal example) "we were married in terms of the Marriage Act, 1961," that doesn't mean that the Marriage Act required them to get married, but rather that they made use of the Marriage Act to get married. Similarly, the government used the powers granted by the Interim Constitution to rationalise the education departments. - htonl (talk) 22:03, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


This has nothing to do with Wikipedia, but I was reading an article from the Atlantic when I noticed a familiar name. Of course it could be someone with the same name, but given you undisputed map-making abilities I'm pretty sure it's you! We're lucky to have you in the South African WikiProject. Congratulations!--eh bien mon prince (talk) 22:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! - htonl (talk) 11:09, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Struggling with a POV editor[edit]

Would you mind helping out with this edit please. The editor concerned has a particular Afrikaner nationalist POV. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 13:52, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Not quite. I can assure you I'm not an "Afrikaner nationalist." It is evident that preconceptions and Apartheid era taboos from Dodger67 and his ilk are propagating this ahistorical POV. I can cite credible sources supporting various notions of Bantu colonialism, that by definition Afrikaans is an African languages and therefore immune from 'Africanisation.' Do not let preconceptions corrupt your mentality through asserting bigotry remarks of me. How presumptions and what we like to call Whiteness. It's unjust and unbecoming of this new era where people tend to stereotype unjustly. I will not stand by and be stereotyped on the basis of a mere edits. As such, that your point of view is portraying historical implication as being rosy and homogeneous. Hendrik Biebouw (talk) 14:03, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Frankly, Roland/Hendrik, your comment, "I will undo until a neutral point of view is reached regardless of what your point of view asserts. The truth shall prevail and those who are ahistorical shall fail," demonstrates to me that you are not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to use Wikipedia as a soapbox to push your point of view. I don't care whether you're an "Afrikaner nationalist" or not, but your edits certainly are pushing a particular POV. You believe that the Bantu peoples should be described as colonists. You believe that Afrikaans is an African language. Your belief does not turn those claims into indisputable facts. - htonl (talk) 14:08, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
To put it bluntly see languages of Africa. I suggest you give them the POV treatment. Therefore by asserting the belief Afrikaans is an African language does not turn into indisputable facts demonstrates to me that you are not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to use Wikipedia as a soapbox to push your point of view. Nor do I care of your POV. Vrijburger (talk) 14:50, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm really not trying to be rude, but that comment is literally incomprehensible to me. Not least because you've copied chunks of my comment into yours in a way that makes no sense. - htonl (talk) 14:52, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 It looks like a duck to me HelenOnline 15:46, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
I have reported an SPI case. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:24, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
An SPI won't be necessary, the Vrijburger account was created by Roland, as can be seen in the user creation logs, with the comment "I'm planning to delete my old account in - order to acquire another username". Confusingly he's then carried on editing with both accounts. - htonl (talk) 17:48, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
That is not the way to change one's username either, which would have been pointed out to him when he created the new account. HelenOnline 08:28, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Re: Gambia[edit]

Thanks! I checked the relevant article for "is homosexuality illegal" and didn't think to check for "is it in the Commonwealth." Sleep! –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 16:08, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

South African general election 1994[edit]

Htonl, in this edit you say "parts of the apartheid system were ended in 1991, but not all of it"

Could you tell me which laws remained in place please ?


(Apologies, the title did not appear on the last post.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiredcleangate3 (talkcontribs) 21:35, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The Tricameral Constitution (which set up parliamentary houses divided by race), the Promotion of Bantu Self-government Act, 1959 and the Bantu Homelands Constitution Act, 1971 (which set up the bantustans), and the Bantu Homelands Citizenship Act, 1970 (which made blacks not SA citizens). Basically, the petty segregation laws were repealed in 1990 and 91, but the political structure stayed until 1994. - htonl (talk) 21:46, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

History of the Cabinet of South Africa[edit]

Hi. I notice that you keep the Cabinet of South Africa template up to date. Whenever you update the template would you copy the table to History of the Cabinet before you make changes, so we can track the history? Thanks Gbawden (talk) 08:16, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Sure, will do. - htonl (talk) 08:34, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Edward VIII abdication crisis[edit]

Hi there. I believe you contributed the article on the Unions of South Africa's legislation giving effect to Edward VIII's abdication. Based on that, you probably have some knowledge on the topic. I have opened a discussion touching on this on the above page and perhaps you could contribute your thoughts there. Many thanks. Frenchmalawi (talk) 17:05, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I think you can ignore the above now; I believe I got my facts wrong. Discussion has ended. Frenchmalawi (talk) 23:31, 15 December 2013 (UTC)


Hi htonl. As you have previously expressed an interest in the matter, please can you participate in the move discussion. HelenOnline 08:34, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

4th Cape Town Wiki-meetup[edit]

Hi Htonl, I just wanted to let you know about, and invite you to, the 4th Cape Town Wiki-meetup at Truth Coffee on Buitenkant St on Sunday the 2nd of February. Cheers, --Discott (talk) 12:33, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

SSM Lagal Map[edit]

While helpful the map has a link on it to a personal blog Wikipedia is not a Soapbox in this case. In addition Indiana has an amendment pending as well for an amendment against same-sex marriage which is not shown on the map. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:39, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I have responded on Talk:Same-sex marriage in the United States. - htonl (talk) 01:58, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

KZN shapefiles[edit]

Hi Htoni,

I am looking for shape files for KZN educational district and municipality borders. Is it possible that you can help me with it.


Anstan10 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anstan10 (talkcontribs) 20:08, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Municipality borders you can download from the Municipal Demarcation Board (click Downloads > Boundary Data). Or you can download the Census 2011 geography from here, it includes municipality borders. I don't know about education districts, I'm afraid. - htonl (talk) 13:37, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:City of Cape Town new logo.jpg[edit]


Thanks for uploading File:City of Cape Town new logo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Stefan2 (talk) 14:00, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Delportshoop at[edit]

Hi Htoni/Adrian,

Is it possible that you can correct the demographical headcount at Tidimalo?

Black African on 2,460 (44.26%) with Other on 2,381 (42.84%) doesn't seem to be correct!

Thanks a lot, Aliwal2012 (talk) 12:15, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

I've checked back with the Census database and it definitely has that many listed as "Other". My guess, based on the location, is that the residents may be Griqua people who chose "Other" on the census forms. You can see a similar thing at Kranshoek where it is definitely Griquas. - htonl (talk) 13:24, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. The Census numerator (officer) probably prompted them to choose "Other" for Griqua. Aliwal2012 (talk) 13:39, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Wiki-meetup May 2014[edit]

Hi Htonl, Wikimedia ZA would like to invite you to the 5th Cape Town Wiki-meetup for 11am, Sunday the 4th May 2014 at Truth Coffee on 36 Buitenkant Street, Cape Town. It would be great if you could join us. Please invite who ever you think might be interested.--Discott (talk) 15:47, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Vote totals[edit]

As you can see, I've reverted your changes to the table. My reasons are that (a) this is how results tables are usually formatted, and (b) having "Valid" as the row title is inappropriate given that it contains the number of seats (there is no such thing as a Valid seat). "Total" is clearly a preferable heading for this sort of row.

What do you think about using this layout instead? I believe it would solve both our concerns. Number 57 09:51, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I've tried that solution out on the article now. See what you think. Number 57 09:58, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm moving this discussion to Talk:South African general election, 2014 as a more appropriate location. - htonl (talk) 10:14, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:UCT Radio logo.png[edit]


Thanks for uploading File:UCT Radio logo.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. TLSuda (talk) 19:40, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Vitruvian Barnstar Hires.png The Technical Barnstar
For your great work in designing the templates updating the stats at South African general election, 2014. Nice work. Nathan121212 (talk) 18:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! - htonl (talk) 18:41, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Pride 2014[edit]

Hi Htonl. In case you are not aware, there is an upcoming campaign to improve coverage of LGBT-related topics on Wikipedia, culminating with an international edit-a-thon on June 21. See Wiki Loves Pride 2014 for more information. If you are interested, you might consider creating a page for a major city (or cities!) near you, with a list of LGBT-related articles that need to be created or improved. This would be a tremendous help to Wikipedia and coverage of LGBT culture and history. Thanks for your consideration, and please let me know if you have any questions! --Another Believer (Talk) 17:57, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

National routes (South Africa)[edit]

Well done on finding the official definition. I've added it to the Internet Archive for when it the inevitable happens, and it disappears from the web.Park3r (talk) 10:18, 6 June 2014 (UTC)


Congratulations on your new job! FYI I seemed to have chased their spokesperson away, which was not my intention. I had personally received a complaint about edits to a DA-related article and was just letting him know what he needs to do to avoid sanctions. Perhaps the legalese scared him off. HelenOnline 08:45, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! My job will be on the technical operations side of things, not involved with public relations, but if I meet him I might mention it and try to explain how Wikipedia works. - htonl (talk) 09:43, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for October 27[edit]

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Islam in South Africa article[edit]

Thank you for your input on this article and for stating your conflict of interest. I have commented on the talk page Talk:Islam_in_South_Africa on your requested edit and just require more sources, your help in this regrad would be much appreciated. --DSBennie (talk) 15:21, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:South Africa Department of Communications logo.png[edit]


Thanks for uploading File:South Africa Department of Communications logo.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Stefan2 (talk) 12:25, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Unpopulated SA places[edit]

Hi again Htonl, hope you are well. I was wondering if you had some time if you could map places in South Africa (main places) which has 0 inhabitants such as Greater St Lucia. Thanks! Bezuidenhout (talk) 14:04, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

With pleasure. I'll probably have time to look at it this weekend. - htonl (talk) 09:09, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Htonl! As always, appreciate it :) Bezuidenhout (talk) 11:19, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Well, here's a map of the empty main places. There's actually not as many as you'd expect, because lots of "empty" places actually have one or two people. Depending on what you want it for, a map of places with very low population density might make more sense. Let me know. - htonl (talk) 19:34, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Wikisource Admin status[edit]

Hi. Your admin status is up for debate at s:Wikisource:Administrators#Htonl. You might want to weigh in, if you are interested in continuing to work there. Cheers! bd2412 T 20:16, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Thanks. Cheers! bd2412 T 22:23, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Please help![edit]

Hi Honl,

Could you please advise me on what software you used to draw the heat map for the population density of KZN?

I would like to draw a map of the population density of the Umkhanyakude district municipality for my final year project and none of the software available to me gives me as good a picture as yours. I am also using the 2011 census data up to small area.

Your advise would be greatly appreciated!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Student A13 (talkcontribs) 09:08, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, I drew those maps with some custom software that I wrote myself, which I can't really share because it requires hand-editing the code to produce a particular map. That being said, for your purposes you could use QGis. I managed to produce this map of Umkhanyakude in QGis. Actually, if that map is what you're looking for you're welcome to use it in your project. - htonl (talk) 11:09, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

South Africa Language Maps Data[edit]

Hi Htonl,

Your South Africa language maps are fantastic! I'm trying to find the original source data you used for them (specifically the Afrikaans proportion map) and not having much luck. I see the data broken down by province on page 23 of the 2011 census brief PDF, but you seem to have data at the ward level and I can't find anything like that. I was wondering if you might be able to share a link to the source for that data.

Thanks! Dheidelberger (talk) 16:56, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately the more detailed data is not available on the Internet; you have to order it on DVD from StatsSA. I have a copy; if you have some particular requests I'd be happy to extract the data for you. For example, the stats on first language by ward can be downloaded here. - htonl (talk) 13:46, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Pride![edit]

You are invited to participate in Wiki Loves Pride!

  • What? Wiki Loves Pride, a campaign to document and photograph LGBT culture and history, including pride events
  • When? June 2015
  • How can you help?
    1.) Create or improve LGBT-related articles and showcase the results of your work here
    2.) Upload photographs or other media related to LGBT culture and history, including pride events, and add images to relevant Wikipedia articles; feel free to create a subpage with a gallery of your images (see examples from last year)
    3.) Contribute to an LGBT-related task force at another Wikimedia project (Wikidata, Wikimedia Commons, Wikivoyage, etc.)

Or, view or update the current list of Tasks. This campaign is supported by the Wikimedia LGBT+ User Group, an officially recognized affiliate of the Wikimedia Foundation. Visit the group's page at Meta-Wiki for more information, or follow Wikimedia LGBT+ on Facebook. Remember, Wiki Loves Pride is about creating and improving LGBT-related content at Wikimedia projects, and content should have a neutral point of view. One does not need to identify as LGBT or any other gender or sexual minority to participate. This campaign is about adding accurate, reliable information to Wikipedia, plain and simple, and all are welcome!

If you have any questions, please leave a message on the campaign's main talk page.

Thanks, and happy editing!

User:Another Believer and User:OR drohowa

Request concerning the article on Berg wind[edit]

Hi Htonl. I'm not sure whether you are the person I should be addressing this request to. I have just finished turning the stub on the Berg winds into a proper article. But that has meant that the article is as much about "coastal lows" in South Africa as it is about "Berg winds" (which form part of the coastal lows). Would you be able to make the Wikipedia search engine recognize

Coastal Low

coastal low

Coastal low


coastal Low

and redirect that enquiry to "Berg wind" please. Many thanks. Cruithne9 (talk) 06:12, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I've made Coastal low and Coastal Low redirects to Berg wind. For more info about how to do that, see Help:Redirect. - htonl (talk) 11:41, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Very many thanks. I'll try to make sense of the Help:Redirect page, when I have a moment. Cruithne9 (talk) 14:51, 5 June 2015 (UTC)