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User talk:Huldra

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It is semi-protected due to frequent abuse. You can get my attention by writing a note on your own talk page and flagging it with {{ping|Huldra}}.

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  • If you start a new section here, I will reply here.



see: User:Huldra/Sandbox


Unwelcome edit!

I have blocked the offensive IP address! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} (Whisper...) 13:27, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi page protection

I have semi-protected your user talk page for another week to stop these mindless attacks - if you want this to be for longer - let me know! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} (Whisper...) 13:36, 4 December 2014 (UTC)


Have sorted it - had hit the wrong protection button - should be ok now! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} (Whisper...) 13:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a lot; may I ask you ( or any watching admin) to please "wash" (rev-del) my talk-page? Thanks, Huldra (talk) 13:44, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
What do you mean by rev-del? Will help if I can ! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} (Whisper...) 13:46, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
If I go into the history go my user-page, say here (look towards the bottom of the page), quite a lot of edits are visible which hopefully could go down a memory-hole? I´m not sure how it is done, but it has been done quite a few times before on this user-page, (yeah; J. and I are old "friends"), Huldra (talk) 14:02, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I have also removed the offensive edit summaries on your talk page! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} (Whisper...) 14:06, 4 December 2014 (UTC)


I have cleared all the above to a new archive page User talk:Huldra/Archive 2 - hope this helps! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} (Whisper...) 14:03, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, but is it not possible to remove this from the history? Huldra (talk) 14:06, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Ah, yes, that is exactly what I mean...Huldra (talk) 14:12, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Am not used to doing this but it seems to have worked! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} (Whisper...) 14:15, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

You're at about 76 sections here right now. You might think about archiving again. John Carter (talk) 23:08, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

User:John Carter; nah, I´ll wait a bit longer; I try to have as few archives as possible.....look at Zero0000...he has 206 sections...... ;P Huldra (talk) 23:46, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps use the auto-archive bot? Code text and instructions are found on the previous archive bot's how to page. If you would like me to put it up for you I am happy to help, if the "how to" page seems confusing. If you choose the auto-archive, you would also need to add the auto-archive index but that can be copied from almost any page that uses auto-archiving. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 23:49, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
User:Drcrazy102 Thank you for your kind offer, but editing in the area I do, I get a lot of stuff here that I´m simply not interested in archiving.....typically edits from editors who have been blocked as socks, or topic-banned, and I´m not too quick with removing them. One prerequisite to editing in this topic-area is to be able to forget stuff, quickly! Perhaps if I was quicker removing those non-archivable edits....I´ll think about it..Thanks again, Huldra (talk) 23:58, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Book of Leibner

As in Farradiyya — I think you have it but if not I can send it. Lots of stuff in there. Zerotalk 05:46, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

No, I don´t have it, but I would very much appreciate it, Huldra (talk) 21:16, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Please stop writing threats on my user page

Since you have an issue with every single one of my edits, please discuss on talk page of relevant article. I'm tired of you threatening and harassing me. Thank you.Asilah1981 (talk) 17:28, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Is this a revert?

Have there been any recent 1RR violations at 1948 Palestinian exodus. What about this edit? It will not count as a revert if it's adding brand new material. But it might be restoring some material that was previously removed. I have not been able to figure that out, but perhaps you can. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 17:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Hadatha

Symbol question.svg Hello! Your submission of Hadatha at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 22:35, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

  • Yoninah, thanks for taking care of the matter. Huldra, thank you for your many contributions to DYK and the rest of the project. Happy holidays everyone--my mother in law went home and there's a few beers left, so this turn out nicely after all. But first it's nap time! Drmies (talk) 19:17, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Thanks a lot to both of you! I hadn´t really though of making Hadatha a DYK, I was just trying to clean up the various Haditha (disambiguation)s. As you can see on Talk:Hadatha: there have been some mix-ups. Very typical: on almost all of these places with rather similar names: there have been mix-ups. (See Talk:Tira, Israel, or Talk:Tayibe). Now: back to my (short?) break; I´ll be back in a few days, hopefully. In the meantime: Enjoy your beer! And thanks for your good work! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:23, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Global account

Hi Huldra! As a Steward I'm involved in the upcoming unification of all accounts organized by the Wikimedia Foundation (see m:Single User Login finalisation announcement). By looking at your account, I realized that you don't have a global account yet. In order to secure your name, I recommend you to create such account on your own by submitting your password on Special:MergeAccount and unifying your local accounts. If you have any problems with doing that or further questions, please don't hesitate to ping me with {{ping|DerHexer}}. Cheers, —DerHexer (Talk) 00:01, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Hadatha

Harrias talk 12:01, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

LOL, that's efficient service for you ;-)♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:54, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Happy New Year Huldra!

On Zochrot and the use of "depopulated"

I've used ethnic cleansed where it was actually ethnic cleansed (i.e: in Ramle when the Jewish fighters were instructed to kill everyone regardless of age, stormed into a mosque and massacred everyone). How is this depopulated?

Furthermore, how is Zochrot not used as a source? It is a reliable primary source. In fact, it is more reliable than most historians reporting on something they have no witnessed. Where is Zochrot opposed as a reliable source? I've seen other pro-Zionist and clearly biased sources being used, yet Zochrot has been tagged as unreliable I can see some instances where Palestine Remembered is inaccurate, although in most instances it is.

Nayefc (talk) 08:05, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Sure, a lot of clearly biased sources are used on Wikipedia, in that case you are allowed to write that "According to"...etc. Palestine Remembered is a private web-site, a blog if you like, and that is not WP:RS. I have been fighting tooth and nail to keep it in the "External links"-section, pr WP:EL, I most of all appreciate their pictures: very valuable. Everything else from Pal.Rem which you could put into Wikipedia can much better be sourced to the original source. So, you use Barron, 1923, for the 1922 data, and Mills, 1932, for the 1931 data, and Hütteroth and Abdulfattah for the 1596 data. Yes: it is more work, but it is more reliable in the end. If you want to totally waste your time on edit-warring putting "ethnically cleansed" into leads; that is you choice (& then you will be blocked: I have seen it happen countless times.), cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Grid references

Suppose the grid reference for villages was added to the info box. It would make questions of identification cleaner. What do you think? Zerotalk 03:30, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, it would be good if the grid reference were added to all the info-boxes, especially on smaller places. All the scholars in the area seems to have some mix-ups. I have no idea as to how we change the info-boxes, though, do you? Huldra (talk) 20:47, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
I can add the fields, but which info boxes are we talking about? Certainly {{Infobox former Arab villages in Palestine}} but maybe some others should have the option too? Incidentally there is a cheap Mac application that can convert lat+long into Pal grid; I'll check it out then send you email about it. Zerotalk 00:05, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, I may have correctly added a parameter "palgrid" to go after the lat-long coordinates in {{Infobox former Arab villages in Palestine}}. Please see Bayt Dajan for an example. I think we can usually use 6 digits like that, but we can also use 8 digits if more accuracy is needed. Does it look ok? Zerotalk 10:23, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it does, but we really need to have something to divide the two numbers, it could be 134.156 or 134/156. And we need something which indicate which number is first; E-W, or N-S: I always mix them up, so I expect other people do, as well! Perhaps: 134.156 (E-W.N-S). or: Palestine grid (E-W, N-S) 134.156.
(Presently it is like a lot of the science-articles on Wikipedia: completely understandable if, and only if, you know all the stuff beforehand....)
About which places should have it: lets start with the info boxes on places which we (and lots of scholars) have mixed up; places in Haditha (disambiguation), Taybeh (disambiguation), Rumman, Tira? I see {{Infobox Palestinian Authority muni}} {{Infobox settlement}} {{Infobox Israel municipality}} {{Infobox Israel village}}, for a start? Huldra (talk) 16:17, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
It is just a general text field so you can write anything there. I rather like "134/156". I already put in the template instructions that EW goes before NS, but I don't like writing that in the infobox itself. It suggests there is more than one possibility, which there isn't. The field will never mean anything except to those few who understand maps and how map coordinates are formed, so there is no point in trying to explain it to other people. If we had somewhere to wikilink the heading "Palestine grid" to, that would be good. Zerotalk 01:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I see Khalidi use exactly the same, he has written 134156 for Bayt Dajan. A space, like 134 156 is also a possibility. I agree that it will not mean anything to most people reading it, but we should not make it difficult for people to understand. Btw, I knew nothing about grid-numbers when I started at I find they are extremely useful, if not a complete necessity to understand, say the articles of Barag and Frankel. Ok, I´ll start adding the grid-numbers for the 48-places (easy to do, as Khalidi gives them) Huldra (talk) 21:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I made Palestine grid, please suggest improvements. When it is ok, we can link "Palestine grid" in the infobox to it. Zerotalk 13:40, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
Excellent! Actually, I think it looks pretty good now. Huldra (talk) 20:49, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

The WB and Israeli location infoboxes use Infobox Settlement, so I can't add the PalGrid to there easily. But I put in a request for new fields in Infobox Settlement — hopefully it will be done soon. Zerotalk 07:38, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I hope so, it seems as if most of the "serious" info about these places is given with grid-numbers. Say, Hütteroth &Abdulfattah, Pringle, Finkelstein. Btw this. (Oh, and this.) Huldra (talk) 23:53, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
I have also asked here: Template talk:Infobox settlement, but no reply so far. Huldra (talk) 18:02, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
@Zero0000: Alas, so they have agreed, and added it to Infobox is just that this does not affect the villages and towns on the West Bank, as they use the "Infobox Palestinian Authority muni" and "Infobox Palestinian Authority municipality"...and I have no idea as to where to ask to have it added there? Huldra (talk) 15:19, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Probably I can do that. Zerotalk 23:48, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
@Zero0000: Please do! Huldra (talk) 20:11, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Ah, I see Frietjes did it, already :), Huldra (talk) 20:25, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

There are some articles which I would like to insert grid-no (or have inserted grid-no., and they do not show): Atlit, Ein Hod, Caesarea, Abu Kabir, Ramla, Taybeh, Ilut. Huldra (talk) 20:25, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I asked Frietjes to help. For locations using Infobox Israel village and similar, it will be necessary to write "grid_name=Palestine grid" and "grid_position=aaa/bbb" since it is reasonable to allow newer locations to have the Israel grid instead of the Palestine grid. Incidentally, some places like Atlit are not where they used to be. Perhaps just put it in like "grid_position=formerly 144/234, now 144/232"? Zerotalk 01:57, 13 February 2015 (UTC)


Whilst Your improvements to articles on Arab villages are welcomed, you must know that changing the description of villages in Israel from "Arab" to Palestinian Arab is controversial at best. I appreciate you feel strongly about the matter, but we all have to maintain NPOV when editing. Thanks, Number 57 11:51, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Number 57: I totally disagree here. We normally go by what people define themselves as. We don't have the article Blacks in America (or rather we do, but it is just a redir), we have African American, as that is what African Americans wants to be known as. Why should it be different for Israel? Most Arab citizens of Israel want to be known as "Palestinian", why should we deny them their right to do that? (Read the Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Terminology) It is simply disrespectful to not use the word "Palestinian" on Palestinian Arab places in Israel, Or should the opinion of Arab citizens of Israel count for nothing? Huldra (talk) 20:37, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
In a neutral encyclopedia, personal opinions count for nothing – what matters is neutrality and common usage in reliable sources specific to the language the encyclopedia is written in. This is nothing to do with being disrespectful (the "disrespect" argument is commonly used by editors seeking to introduce their non-neutral POV, so I'd avoid using it if I were you). As an aside, for some reason your pings do not work (I only checked back here out of interest to see if you had replied) – try using {{ping}}. Cheers, Number 57 22:04, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
@Number 57:.Thanks for your info about my ping, hope this works better. Anyway: this is also about Wikipedia history: many of the places we are talking about were started as copies from Hebrew Wp, if I recall correctly. If they had been started as copies from Arab wp, I would guess they would all be called just "Palestinian" today. I´m not going to avoid using the word "disrespectful"; (I have not seen it used the way you mention, though I don´t doubt your word), it *is* disrespectful, IMO. In the end, though, it is about what WP:RS say, and that´s why I thought linking to Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Terminology could be illuminating. I know that in my own country (in Scandinavia) the term "Israeli Palestinians" are now used by mainstream media. And when even The New York Times (which can hardly be accused of anti-Israeli bias) use both 'Palestinian Israelis' and 'Israeli Arabs' ....then I do not think it is fair to use the term POV for wanting to use the word "Palestinian Arab". I wonder if we should take this to mediation; to get some new, "fresh" eyes to look at it? (Not that I have had any experience with the process). But frankly, I suspect neither you nor me will change position on this issue, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:39, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
I think the question is, if you are aware that both Israeli Arab and Palestinian Arab are in use, why you would choose to change "Arab" to one of the two which potentially cause issues. Using the neutral "Arab" avoids this problem. Why is this not good enough? Number 57 22:46, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
@Number 57: Hmm, for me the question is, Why are people allergic to the word "Palestinian"? If someone wants to be called/identifies with "Palestinian", why not call them that? I have a friend who wants to be addressed as "they", well, I did struggle with that (all my English-teachers who over the years had tried to teach me one person is either "he" or "she". But now I call "them" "they". (If you see what I mean: earlier "they" would have been a "she" to me!) We respect a Chelsey Manning when she wants to be known as "she", but not Palestinian in Israel who wants to be know as a Palestinian. I think the question is, why is "Arab" "good enough" for them? Huldra (talk) 23:00, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
Two comments - firstly, if someone wants to identify as a Palestinian, they can and it should be noted in their individual article (but it doesn't take away from the fact that they are also still Israeli by virtue of their citizenship). However, Wikipedia is not the place to put labels on a whole group of people who we have no idea whether they accept that label or not. Do you know if every single person in those towns and villages self-identifies as Palestinian? If not, then you cannot label whole towns or villages. Secondly, and more importantly, an encylopedia is meant to be clear and neutral. Labelling a place in Israel as being Palestinian does not offer that clarity or neutrality. The appropriate place to discuss the issue of identification is Arab citizens of Israel or individual people's articles. Number 57 23:09, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
@Number 57: Firstly, how do we know that the people of Harlem wants to be identified as African American and not as Black Americans? We don´t. But we know that if the majority of African American wants to be identified as that (and not as "Black American") then we respect that, and name the places as populate by African American. Why should we treat the Palestinian places in Israel any different? Your second point is interesting. You say that "an encylopedia is meant to be clear and neutral"; I agree, but the situation on the ground is anything but clear; what you are trying to do, IMHO, is to impose a "clarity" on Wikipedia where there is none in the real world. Should not an encyclopaedia reflect the reality? Again, I suggest mediation; to get some new, "fresh" eyes to look at it? Huldra (talk) 21:37, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

If you want mediation, I suggest we detail our prospective cases at Talk:Uzeir and request a WP:Third opinion. Number 57 15:41, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

@Number 57:, ok I have summed up my view on Talk:Uzeir, I´ll wait until you have done the same, and then ask for WP:Third opinion. -Huldra (talk) 20:15, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Your last revert on Israeli-occupied territories

  • Can you explain me how "The term occupied is challenged by some pro-Israeli official bodies and organizations, including the Israeli government" is better than "The Israeli government maintains the territories were captured in a defensive war thus according to international law their status is"
  • Since Israeli claims are mentioned in regards to Gaza after 2005, doesn't it make sense to put first Israel claim after 1967. It either both (in that order) or neither. And why it is alone two paragraphs later?

Neither of these change I have made are about my opinion, it is simple logic. If you can't answer, please revert and save me the fire from up above :) Ashtul (talk) 23:53, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Umm al-Kheir

I have added a page for Umm al-Kheir. It can be spelled with an A or E (or some other combinations) so right now it doesn't show on Hebron Governorate category bar. Cheers. Ashtul (talk) 16:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I have moved it to Umm al-Khair, Hebron: the template name. Huldra (talk) 17:18, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Which one of my edits rubbed you the wrong way? None of them touched on Israel-Palestine issues. They were geographical or about towns inside pre-1967 Israel? Ashtul (talk) 17:41, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Most of them. Say, List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus also lies within pre-1967 Israel, still every one of the articles on that list are forbidden to edit by anyone with a topic ban. Huldra (talk) 17:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Guerin's Holy Land

It is at Gallica: [1]. Note there are two parts even though the first part doesn't seem to identify itself as such. If you have trouble downloading, I can send it to you but it's a bit big (100M each volume). Zerotalk 22:29, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Found it, Huldra (talk) 23:59, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

communal settlement (Israel)

This is a type of town/village in Israel. If you don't like it, change the article name. It is more relevant information than neigbouring communities etc.

As for picture from Carmel, your request for RfD is hypocritical as it was added with no discussion. Ashtul (talk) 21:46, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

An Israeli West Bank settlement is an Israeli West Bank settlement: illegal in the eyes of the international community. That you are trying to "normalise" them, by getting them to appear as settlements in Israel pre-1967 (i.e. legal, in the eyes of the international community) is A: highly contentious, B: will not hold. Huldra (talk) 21:59, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
DISCLAIMER Please note: the text contained in "Arabs and Jews in exemplary coexistence at Barkan – Samaria" has not been corrected, edited or verified by Dem) What does that even mean? I added a new source from Haaretz as well. Ashtul (talk) 21:48, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
I copied & pasted from the "Disclaimer" at the bottom of the page you linked to, unfortunately I could not link the whole text, which is as follows: "DISCLAIMER Please note: the text contained in "Arabs and Jews in exemplary coexistence at Barkan – Samaria" has not been corrected, edited or verified by Demotix and is the raw text submitted by the photojournalist. All views and opinions expressed are that of the independent photojournalist and do not represent the views of Demotix Ltd. These details have been included in order to provide as much information as possible to the Media buyer." Huldra (talk) 21:53, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
OK, I haven't seen it. But it does say it on the Haaretz article so please, self revert. Ashtul (talk) 23:19, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
The problem is that it is a "premium" article from Haaretz: unless you subscribe (which I don´t) you cannot see the whole article. What I can see is this: "EU settlement ban casts shadow over Palestinian industry in the West Bank. Israeli business owners wonder how many Palestinians will lose their jobs if companies are forced to move over the Green Line into Israel proper. It’s early morning in the middle of the week and the Barkan Industrial Park in the West Bank opens the day as always. The thousands of workers in dozens of factories - half Israelis and half Palestinians - arrive for work. Some come from the other side of the Green Line or nearby settlements, some from nearby villages and towns such as Nablus or Salfit."
And you want me to re-add "At Barkan Industrial Park, thousands of Israelis and Palestinians coexist and work side by side in many of the factories. Palestinian workers can earn as much as 4 times the monthly average salary in the Palestinian Authority.".....sourced to what I can see of the above Haaretz-article? Sorry, no way. Huldra (talk) 23:30, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
And please explain me, a smart person to another smart person, how that image with 'Carmel in background' isn't POVPUSH. Ashtul (talk) 23:26, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Should I copy paste you the article? Can I read every book you quote? Seriously!!!
And while at it, putting a gazillion books in Bibliography in Afula article is clear POVPUSH again. The Palestinian connection is mentioned and there is no need for 20 books. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. Ashtul (talk) 23:38, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Huh? I don´t understand what you mean, here. As for the Afula article, I believe the only references I haven´t yet used are the "Hadashot Arkheologiyot – Excavations and Surveys in Israel"-ones. Never heard anyone objecting to me adding those before?? And when a place has a 1000 year or more with non-Jewish history, and less than 100 years with newer Jewish history: don´t be surprised that there are a "gazillion books" about the non-Jewish history. Oh, and finally: please be careful calling other editors WP:POVPUSHers , Huldra (talk) 23:42, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
You might be right about Afula. What about reverting Barkan b/c you can't access an article on Haaretz or the image with Carmel 'at the background'?
Also, please let me know how you want to proceed about Community settlement (Israel). I have no problem with droping the (Israel) from that page if that what bothers you. Ashtul (talk) 00:51, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, you see, that is the problem: you totally misread my edits on Afula, and make the quite serious accusation of WP:POVPUSH against me......and *then* you ask me to trust your reading of the Haaretz article I cannot see. Seriously, do you think that is a reasonable request? (Thank you for admitting your mistake on Afula, at least).
As for the Community settlement (Israel)-article: frankly, the article is horrible; it looks as if 90% is completely unsourced. If you want to improve the situation, then I suggest that you start by adding sources, in English, preferably. Huldra (talk) 21:32, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
A good thing is that articles behind paywall at Haaretz and many other websites can still be read if you look at the cached version. If you search on the article or the link on Google, you can find an arrow that is like an upside down triangle when you get a result and you can press it and pick "Cached". --IRISZOOM (talk) 16:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
..ok, thanks for the tip! Huldra (talk) 20:41, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Umm Safa

At Rawabi. Can we link that to a Palestinian site? Fanks. Nishidani (talk) 17:34, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: Sure, it is Umm Suffah on SWP map 14, just West of 'Atara. It is one of the few red-linked villages in the Ramallah and al-Bireh Governorate. SWP: "apparently connected with an ancient Maspha or Mizpeh, II, 291, 378. It is also in Guerin. Do you want to start it? Huldra (talk) 18:09, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Fanks indeedly chieftainess. Cripes, I'm already full up to pussy's bow with woik, and though I'd like to, I'm flat out like an effing starving lizard. 'Nother day, praps.
Was also called Kafr Ishwa'. Samaria survey 1 p. 401. Zerotalk 20:32, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
@Zero0000: Which Samaria survey 1?? Surely not Guerin, he is up at Nablus around Samaria 1, p. 401? Huldra (talk) 20:40, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
The Finkelstein one, Highlands Of Many Cultures, Vol 1. Zerotalk 20:45, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Ah, right, thanks, He also gives Guerin, 1875: 109, Huldra (talk) 20:46, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Grid changes for Israeli locations

For localities with infobox "Israel municipality", "Israel village" or equivalent (includes "Kibbutz") I removed the "palgrid" field to allow more general possibilities. The fields to use now are "grid_name" and "grid_position".

For locations in Israel it is reasonable to use the present Israeli grid (ITM), and for places with a history it is reasonable to use the Palestine grid to match the large number of historical and archaeological sources that use it. I'm suggesting syntax like at Amka, which I input like

 | grid_name=Grid position
 | grid_position=166/265 [[Palestine grid|PAL]]<br>215400/764900 [[Israel Transverse Mercator|ITC]]

but of course the grid could be named like before if only one is used. For places like Caesarea which moved from their original locations, we could use PAL for the original position and ITM for the current position. Amudanan has ITC.

I'd edit the documentation next. Zerotalk 09:14, 25 February 2015 (UTC) @Brad Dyer:

But this may change, see Frejtjes' talk page. I'm struggling to find time to engage with this today.. Zerotalk 00:47, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, Frejtjes has applied a bit of template magic. For localities with infobox "Israel municipality", "Israel village" or equivalent (includes "Kibbutz"), you can use any or all of these fields:

| palgrid=XXX/YYY                 (Palestine grid)
| ITMgrid=XXXXXX/YYYYYY      (Current Israel grid)
| ICSgrid=XXXXXX/YYYYYY      (Obsolete Israel grid; hard to see any reason to ever use this)
| grid_position=ANYTHING       Free text

Don't use "grid_name" at all. Whichever fields are used will appear with the heading "Grid position". I'm thinking of changing the Palestine infoboxes too, as no edit would be needed to those articles. The difference will be that instead of "Palestine grid   XXX/YYY" it will show "Grid position   XXX/YYY (PAL)". Zerotalk 08:43, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

@Frietjes:, @Zero0000:: I have added palgrid-numbers to places like Taybeh and Abwein, but they are not visible. Any reason? Huldra (talk) 21:17, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
that article using the world-wide {{infobox settlement}} directly, and not one of the regional-specific wrappers like {{Infobox Israel municipality}} or {{Infobox Kibbutz}}. hence, you will need to use different syntax, like
| grid_position = ... [[Palestine grid|PAL]]


| grid_name = [[Palestine grid]]
| grid_position = ...
Frietjes (talk) 22:24, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
@Frietjes: ok, I see; thanks again! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 02:13, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
@Frietjes:Is it possible to get it on infobox building? There are articles which only identify Khan al-Tujjar (Mount Tabor) by its grid-number, but I cannot get it into the info box. Huldra (talk) 22:09, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
added. Frietjes (talk) 14:56, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! Huldra (talk) 20:04, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
@Frietjes:...and Infobox ancient site? I´m trying to put grid-numbers into Arsuf, but they don´t show up. Huldra (talk) 21:35, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
should work now. Frietjes (talk) 21:42, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! that was super-quick! Huldra (talk) 21:44, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Catch up

Brookie popping by here, to check you're trouble free after last Xmas's problems - if not - shout! --Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} (Whisper...) 17:17, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

@Brookie: Thanks, yes, it has been wonderfully quiet and trouble-free here, thanks again! I know people are in two minds about this; some like to keep their talk-pages unprotected, arguing that time used to vandalise it, is time *not* used to vandalise anything important. However, I´m not really her to fight vandals (thought I´m very, very grateful for those who do!), I´m here to write /build articles, and having to spend a lot of time "cleaning up" my talk-page keeps me away from that main goal. So thanks again! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:21, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


Do you know of any reason to believe this guy is more likely to be posting to my talk page than this guy? Thank for any info. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 16:54, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Hi Gouncbeatduke. Runtshit's edits are motivated by an intense hatred of a British socialist and anti-Zionist. I have no reason to believe he has targeted you.
Please read WP:Revert, block, ignore. These vandals thrive on attention, so let's not give them what they want. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 17:20, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
@Gouncbeatduke: It is exactly like @Malik Shabazz: say; this guy target everyone in the Israel/Palestine area who he consider not "pro-Israeli" enough. While Runtshit is obsessed with one person only, and follows him around. Since that person is interested in the Israel/Palestine area, most editors in the area will sooner or later encounter one of Runtshit´s many, many socks. It is highly unlikely that Runtshit has targeted you: Runtshit has an allergy against a person who is Jewish, and at the same time declares himself as anti-Zionist.
WP:Revert, block, ignore and WP:DENY are vital here. Don´t make a fuzz; after a while you you will get used to them both, just like you get used to mosquitos in the summer..... Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:38, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


Hey there Huldra, Are you in touch with User:Tiamut at all? She kind of disappeared from the face of the planet after she had been so active and meticulous in her Wikipedia editing! --Fjmustak (talk) 00:11, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

@Fjmustak: Yes, I´m in contact with her. She is fine, just very, very occupied in RL. She just uploaded a couple of pictures to commons, after a recent picnic to Ma'alul. Don´t worry; she will be back...eventually, (And yeah; I miss her terribly, too!) Cheers, Huldra (talk) 16:54, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
@Huldra: Could you please relay the message that a group of us is creating a Wikipedia user group in Palestine. There are very few Wikipedians I know in Palestine, and she would be great asset to the group. She can email me if she wishes. Same goes for any others you know in Palestine. Regards --Fjmustak (talk) 20:13, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
@Fjmustak: Ok, I will, Huldra (talk) 22:10, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Listing of the depopulated Palestinian villages

Hi. As you know very well (User:Huldra/Morris-list is helpful), there are different figures given about the depopulated Palestinian villages. I am wondering about al-Subeih (the full name is "Arab al-Subeih"), which was a Bedouin tribe, and I added it more than year ago to Template:Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus after seeing it listed in the main article. It seems to be the only tribe listed and I think there should be some consistency. Benny Morris and Walid Khalid list 17 each but not all are the same while Salman Abu Sitta lists 99, including 78 in the Beersheba area. This is mentioned on 1948 Palestinian exodus#Abandoned, evacuated and destroyed Palestinian localities but not in List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus. What do you think?

It is not either mentioned there that several towns were overwhelmingly emptied of their Palestinian residents. No matter if they are listed are not (Benny Morris list them but not, according to that section, Walid Khalidi), it is worth mentioning. --IRISZOOM (talk) 16:47, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Ah, the Bedouin tribes are a bit of my guilty conscience; I know far too little about them. Yes, that template should probably be expanded, but it is not my top priority; there are simply too many articles on that list which are sub-standard already; I prioritise to bring the existing articles there up to a certain standard.
Note also the User:Huldra/Morris2-list: there should not be any red-listed names on that list, but there is.....lots of these new Israeli settlements changed names; and I have not figured out all, yet. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:22, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
That is a great list too. I think Arab al-Subeih should be treated as the rest of the tribes so I will take a look on the lists more.
Regarding another village, I saw recently on al-Jammama that Ruhama was established on the village's land. However, I saw that Beit Kama had some info that also relates to al-Jammama. This was added by a user three years ago but then vastly reduced by other users. I only have the book by Benny Morris and not the one by Walid Khalidi and the other one sourced. Can you take a look and see what Khalidi says? Thanks. I see that Morris writes "Beit Kama - southeast of Jammama - 1949" under number 167 at xx - MAPS.
There is some who remove sourced info about Palestinian villages. I saw this yesterday and just saw this. You, who know the villages very well, had added info about the history in both but as I said, some remove such mentions. --IRISZOOM (talk) 05:15, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
Glad you find the Morris-lists useful; Zero and I spend quite some time trying to sort them out. Note that Morris obviously made some mistakes, e.g. on User:Huldra/Morris-list villages #268 and #274 are probably the same village.....
Khalidi does not mention Beit Kama at all, only Ruhama is on al-Jammama -land according to him. Morris mentions that it is near al-Jammama (very important to note that you cannot compare directly Khalidi and Morris; as Morris gave the geographic locality, while Khalidi went into *who* the land actually belonged to.)
And "certain" editors are removing which village the kibbutzes or settlement were built on *all* the time, that is why I normally keep them "watched", but I missed the Kfar Kisch-one; thanks for spotting it! (I have 3,800 articles on my watch-list now, so yeah, I miss some!)
If you need some more info from Khalidi: don´t hesitate to ask.Huldra (talk) 20:18, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

On another note; Jacob Berggren was one of the early travellers in Palestine (1820-22), and he is the earliest modern source for several places, such as Al-Shaykh Muwannis and Tubas. I am therefor very interested in having an article about him here, on en.wp. Some sources:
Interested in helping out? Huldra (talk) 20:28, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
I have seen you point out some errors.
Thanks for looking at it in the book. Can you clarify if only the Jewish localities that was formed on the site of depopulated Palestinian villages should mentioned in the infobox etc. and not those on village land? As far I have seen, both are mentioned.
I don't have the third source, which is called "Ancient Christian Villages of Judaea and the Negev" and written by Bellarmino Bagatti, and no one of those who removed the text made any mention if they have the sources either, but just that it is "POV" etc. The text added was "The kibbutz was founded on 18 April 1949 on the lands of the Christian Palestinian village of al-Jammama, whose inhabitants were forcibly displaced on 22 May 1948 after a Jewish military assault on their village, and were never allowed to return" and this edition with the refs can be seen here. It is clear that it was attacked then and depopulated but not if it is related to Beit Kama. So what I want to do is work on that. If no reliable source reports about a connection to the Palestinian village, then that part should be removed. If they do, that should be reinserted. Now what we have is some part that was greatly changed without any of those removing and changing parts telling if they had even looked at the sources, only that they found it "POV", "charged" etc.
I also have many articles in my watchlist (though I need a much bigger one) and I would hope I would have to spend less time on reverting people (mainly IPs) who fail to edit according to the policies of Wikipedia. Just look at this I found one month ago, which was removed 2.5 years ago (it is still not clear if one other edit in that section should be reverted and I will look more at it soon). I have thought to bring it up on a board to follow up on the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Archive 8#IP area still being swamped by socks. It is very boring to see several edits every day who remove facts, whitewash history etc. and many others are not discovered until a very long time (for example, I found about this torture article after I had read about a new Haaretz investigation and then saw the removals after looking at the Revision history) and this is seen as insignificant in comparision to for example a 1RR violation. It can't be that one 1RR violation is treated as much worse than violations of NPOV, for example. One action could be to semi-protect the area. But this is another topic and I will soon discuss it on a board.
If you create such an article, I will take a look at it and I have already found for example this by the National Archives of Sweden. By the way, I saw that there are articles about Jacob Berggren in the Swedish Wikipedia and Arabic one. --IRISZOOM (talk) 11:15, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
In the info-box for the 48-villages: we should definitely put *all* the Israeli settlements on Palestinian village land, not only those exactly on the village site. (Very few new Israeli settlements were *exactly* on the old Palestinian site.) I don´t have the Bagatti-book either, but from what I can see it is about ancient Christian settlements. And undoubtedly the area was Christian...back in Byzantine times. But is is completely wrong to write "The kibbutz was founded on 18 April 1949 on the lands of the Christian Palestinian village of al-Jammama"..firstly, al-Jammama had probably not been Christian for a 1000-1500 years, and Morris only say that Beit Kama was *near* (south-east) of al-Jammama. I have changed it, and removed the Khalidi-ref in the Beit Kama -article. (Khalidi never mentions Beit Kama)
I would love to see the whole ARBIA area semi-protected, I´ve had my talk-page semied since December, and it has been wonderfully quiet here. At least now I can concentrate more on writing articles, and not with death/rape-threaths on my user-page.
I´ll look around a bit more for Berggren, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:43, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Okay. Good that you worked on Beit Kama. I added that it was Palestinian and was depopulated as it was changed to only "Arab" and "conquered" while the fact that they were depopulated is the reason for the Palestinian refugee crisis, no matter what anyone thinks was the reason it started and if it was right to destroy nearly all of them and stop the refugees from coming back. So it is undisputed that they were depopulated, though both sides may prefer another term as you know. I also removed the older ref now as the only thing that what was left was from Benny Morris.
So should it be on al-Jammama's infobox that Morris writes Beit Kama was established southeast to it? Because I saw you edited it but did not add it to either it there or in a section.
It is horrible some write such things on people's talk page.
I will look forward to see the article about Jacob Berggren being created. --IRISZOOM (talk) 14:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
I do not think that Beit Kama should be in the info-box of Al-Jammama; we normally only have the places Khalidi mentions there. We can of course have it in the article -text, as we have RS (=Morris) that Beit Kama was founded S-E of it. (It could now, of course, have spread onto Al-Jammama land; (see the Kiryat Gat -Al-Faluja example); but we simply do not know that.) However, you should perhaps have let the Bagatti-ref stand, as none of us have checked it?
When I edit these articles, I feel sometimes I´m at a factory assembly-line; Guerin; check, SWP, check, 1922, check...etc. Often I take one or two of the same "operations" over a lot of articles; that is more effective. Which means that normally there is still a lot to do after I have finished editing an article for the day! It is virtually only when I go for a DYK that I try to do it all.
I see our "mutual friend" has visited you, too? If it gets too bad: just get it semied, cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:36, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying that. If that is how it is, we stick with what Khalidi says. Yes, it should be in the body and it makes no sense have it in Beit Kama but not in al-Jammama, which is the article about that Palestinian village. Okay, then I know why you did that as I was unsure if it should be added.
If nothing from Bagatti's book is left in the article, I don't see why we shoud keep the ref. The only thing there is from Morris. However, perhaps I should ask at WP:Palestine or some other venue if someone can check that source?
There was some person who wrote such things after I reverted some bad words inserted at Rula Jebreal. --IRISZOOM (talk) 20:51, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
As it is *only* Khalidi who gives "current localities on the land", we follow him. Morris is simply is not specific enough to use on this. As for Bagatti, when I used preview: I did not find Beit Kama, but I *did* find Jammama. The Bagatti-ref. should probably go into the Biblio in the Jammama-article. Huldra (talk) 21:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Good, now I know exactly how it works.
I will bring it up in some venue. I can't preview the book, though search results show some small parts of it. One of the hits are from the same page that was referenced to by the editor (page 149). --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:10, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
I should hasten to say that this is the reality, lots and lots of the |curlocl= is not sourced at all. ...or sourced to Morris (I just ce´ed one such at Al-Sarafand.) IMO: those "curlocl" which is only sourced to Morris, should -eventually- go into the article text, and not be in the info-box. The unsourced ones have mostly been taken from the Pal.rem. site: no specific source given. That is not good enough. Huldra (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Okay. Another thing I think is missing is translations of the names on many articles, which I for some time have thought to add. There are some sources on the names in Arabic and also in Hebrew. The easiet one to get them from is Palestine Remembered.
I think Zochrot could be a good WP:EL. They got statistics, images, videos stories, descriptions from Khalidi etc. The part about the built-up area and land is split there, by the way.
Furthermore, most of the external links that are on articles here are now dead links. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:39, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Oh, please, please do. I do not speak/read/write either Arabic or Hebrew ..(I´m definitely no linguist). Having especially the Arabic names of places is vital. E.g., Guerin, in his later books, always gives the Arabic names (and spelling). Though I know absolutely no Arabic, I have identified many of the places in User:Huldra/Guerin after comparing the spelling of villages he visited, with the names given in Arabic on their Wikipedia article.
As for Zochrot being WP:EL: absolutely. The problem with Zochrot (as with POICA and ARIJ-links on the West Bank places): they have been changing their url too often. Extremely frustrating (I have added lots and lots of those now dead links...) I know Al Ameer sons was also quite frustrated over this.(I think the ARIJ changed url 3 times, or something). Therefor ........I had simply planned to ignore most of those WP:EL for a year ..or three; until they "settle down". When I add WP:ELs, it is normally to Pal.rem (which have never changed its URLs in the 10+ years I have looked at it) or IAA, or commons; in short: the "steady ones". Huldra (talk) 23:08, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
PS: probably all the WP:EL links to Khalil Sakakini Cultural Center should go; they are presently dead, and were not very great to begin with. In a year...or three; I will start to remove them, Huldra (talk) 23:53, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
I will do it but I am not sure when I will start. There are many villages so it takes some time.
Yes, link rot can be a big problem. That is why it is best to add the title but also the author in the these links. I agree with you about removing them. Same with those to that are not working (by Dr. Moslih Kanaaneh), which seems to be nearly all. --IRISZOOM (talk) 09:21, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Actually, the -links are mostly (all?) still there, that is a case of link rot again. I have found them quite informative (and great pictures!) make sure that the links are actually gone (as opposed to moved url) before you remove the links. Look here:
All the early POICA-links are dead, but you can easily find the new address by googeling the title of the article, Huldra (talk) 19:23, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
I mentioned the problems on that site while we were talking about the other site. I did a search for the description of the villages (that I found on Wayback Machine) on and did not find anything on Google. If they were informative, the archived version can be added instead. However, there are images left I see on your link, which is good. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I have also used for that place for a while, but presently they seem to be working again. Link-rot, and all that. If there is a specific site -link you are thinking of, then please tell me, and I´ll try to locate its new url, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:52, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
I was confusing them. I meant, which as you say is run by Khalil Sakakini Cultural Center, so we are now speaking about the same. Those can't be found via Google, though can be found on Webarchive. See for example Are the descriptions from Walid Khalidi? --IRISZOOM (talk) 13:47, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, that wording is exactly the same as in Khalidi. Actually, that is more than is at the Pal.rem-site....perhaps it would be useful to keep the link (to after all? Huldra (talk) 19:38, 12 April 2015 (UTC)


Then I think we can keep it too. --IRISZOOM (talk) 09:12, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Btw, Wikipedia have now been granted general right to use all the Pal.rem-sites pictures over at commons; which is absolutely great news! Huldra (talk) 20:36, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Nice to hear.
By the way, I will borrow All That Remains very soon.--IRISZOOM (talk) 23:41, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
I have now asked at WT:PALESTINE if anyone got acces to the book by Bagatti and can look in it. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:04, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
@IRISZOOM: : the one place which *really* should be included (in the Gaza district) is Al-Majdal, Askalan. Presently, it is only a redir to Ashkelon (as is Al majdal). Khalidi did not include it, as he did not include towns (Khalidi, 1992, p. XX), but since we do include towns (like Ramla and Lydda...we should probably include Haifa, too)...then we should include Al-Majdal, Askalan, too.
Oh, btw, could you please keep Ein Ayala and HaHotrim "watched"? Some joker removes info from them, Huldra (talk) 21:20, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Include where? I added them to my watchlist now. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:15, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
@IRISZOOM: Thanks, and I was thinking on the template:
Huldra (talk) 22:20, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
That is not consistent at all. Perhaps the template could be separated to add that several cities were also depopulated of Palestinians, as for example Benny Morris and Rochelle A. Davis mentions.
I will remove al-Subeih now as it was only one of many tribes depopulated. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:35, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
@IRISZOOM: I´m in two minds about it....on one hand it is called "Template:Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus" what is Ramla and Lydda doing there? And we have List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus...where Majdal is also listed. The problem is that those not listed on the template tends to get forgotten, except for the really famous ones, like Ramla and Lydda. Khalidi specifically mentions 4 places: Ramla, Lydda, Haifa and Majdal. Of course there were others, like Safad and Tiberias. Huldra (talk) 22:45, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
It needs to be consistent so either all cities/towns (or those four) or none should be listed. It is the same when it comes to the tribes. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
@IRISZOOM: Agreed. It seems that they are all listed at the start of the article List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus...but they are not linked. Perhas they should be. For me it was just ironic that it was easier to find info about the depopulation of villages with a few hundred, or even a few dozen inhabitants, than it was to find information about large towns. This, btw, is interesting, as it contradicts say, the Golda Meir-story about Haifa. Huldra (talk) 23:07, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
That part in the lead was added by me less than two months ago. I didn't list them as it is unclear if they should be, as this discussion shows, but they are clearly relevant to mention, not least for the reason you mention. Yes, an in interesting story but I will read the whole article later. --IRISZOOM (talk) 23:17, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
@IRISZOOM: Yes, we should list them separately they "drown" in the list of village article. Another group of villages which should be listed is the depopulated so called "Templer settlements". Again, Khalidi specifically writes that he does not include them, as "despite the presence of Arab workers and residents, they were not Palestinian villages but colonies set up by the German Templars at the end of the nineteenth century." However, that is a truth with modifications; eg., Bethlehem of Galilee had existed as an Arab village for centuries before the Germans arrived, and in both the 1922 & 1931 census there was a majority of Muslim residents. I haven´t expanded the other German Templar articles yet (I´m getting there!)..but it would not surprise me if several showed similar development. Huldra (talk) 23:49, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Where can they be listed? I do think they can be mentioned in any relevant article but if it is only listing towns and villages, the cities (though some call them towns) don't belong there. However, then it should be consistent as some cities/towns are listed while others are not. --IRISZOOM (talk) 09:31, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
@IRISZOOM: Perhaps 2 new paragraphs in List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus? One for the towns/cities (everything which is not covered by Khalidi), and one for the Templar places? Huldra (talk) 21:23, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


Yes. However, there should be some consistency on that template and the listing in that article. As you said, two to three cities are mentioned on those pages. --IRISZOOM (talk) 17:01, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely. What if we, in the article, had a paragraph first, named, say, "Cities and towns depopulated of its Arab population", then start that paragraph with *how* we define "depopulated"; (losing more than 50% of its Arab population? Any other percentage?) Then a wikilinked list of towns and cities fulfilling these criteria. Then change each of the titles in the Subdistricts, so that "Acre Subdistrict" becomes "Villages in the Acre Subdistrict" etc. And remove any town presently included there (Lydda, Ramle). Then remove all towns from the template, too...or put the same town/cities at the top? Huldra (talk) 18:50, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Do you mean a section in the article for cities/towns?
The article and template should resemble each other so if they are listed in the first one, they should be in the template too and if they are not, remove them.
It is up to the reliable sources to classify them as depopulated or not. --IRISZOOM (talk) 23:23, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
@IRISZOOM: yes, that is exactly what I meant. Get the towns/cities in a separate section up at the start of the article, and rename the headers to reflect that it is only the villages that is included. And then: similar in the template. Huldra (talk) 21:10, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
That seems to be a good solution. --IRISZOOM (talk) 12:22, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Was that your request on Commons?

[2] Correct, I just used a random name. In fact, I have never even had issues with the person in question. I just thought of an American schoolkid's name. Thanks for making the appeal! Peter Damian (talk) 17:38, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

@Peter Damian: yes it was, not that it helped a lot. Do you want me to make another try? It has been over 6 months. (Link to the whole discussion here) (Btw, I hope to take over the "Huldra" name at commons too, soon, as part of the SUL-effort); Huldra (talk) 20:45, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
Leave it for now. I did want to load some of incunabula collection there, but it's not urgent (give or take a few hundred years). Peter Damian (talk) 21:11, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
@Peter Damian: Ok, as you wish. You could off course also upload it here (...just to show them what they are missing ;P) Huldra (talk) 21:16, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
You can upload it here?

Thanks for the link to the discussion (which I hadn't seen before). I left a message on Fae's page, in case it makes any difference, hopefully not for the worse. Peter Damian (talk) 10:53, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

@Peter Damian: Sure, you can upload pictures (such as this one) to en.wp, actually, I think the the copy-right requirements are less strict on en.wp than on commons. (Though I am not an expert on that!) From my understanding: everything you can upload to commons, you can also upload to en.wp; but *not* the other way around. (Btw, I love old prints/manuscripts, and I was absolutely delighted to find one for the Beit Hanoun-page).
The discussion on commons about your ban back then was....well, like talking to a stone. Or several stones. A waste of time. People had their mind made up in advance, and nothing I would say would make a difference. I would suggest that you upload a bit to en.wp instead: see the "upload file"-button on the left. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 14:57, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Burqin

Sunday on the wiki looks better with your contribution - Thanks Victuallers (talk) 15:06, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

library service

Hi Huldra. Tomorrow I can vist the Tel Aviv University library again, where the Bagatti book was found. If you want any other quick looks like that leave me a message. trespassers william (talk) 20:58, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@Danny lost: Thanks! Could you just confirm (or not) what IRISZOOM and I suspected: that the book is about the ancient, that is Byzantine era? I see we have the book ("Ancient Christian villages of Judaea and the Negev / Bellarmino Bagatti", 2002) also in my country, but it would be an out-of-city loan for me. Guess I should get hold of it at one time, and "plot in" all the places he mentions. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:05, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Already posted page images at rhe other talk Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palestine . You were right. I mean is there any other source you want to check? trespassers william (talk) 21:38, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
@Danny lost: Ok, then not really. At the moment I have more than enough of stuff to add to articles..... Btw, take a look at the maps down on the Charles William Meredith van de Velde -page. In 1858, we had El Kaweh and el Kabireh clearly marked. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:46, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


Have we an article on this village? Nishidani (talk) 09:03, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: I assume you mean Araqah, 15 kilometers west of Jenin? Huldra (talk) 11:47, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
Once more I doff my hatless head to your omniscience.Nishidani (talk) 11:53, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks :)

Thank you for your civility while contesting my edit. It's rather refreshing for a Palestine-Israel dispute. --User:Monochrome Monitor|Monochrome_User talk:Monochrome MonitorMonitor 22:45, 9 May 2015 (UTC); edited to fix code colour display, Drcrazy102 (talk) 02:33, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Monochrome Monitor, thanks, same to you! ;P Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:47, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Beit Sakariya

Hello my dear,

Sorry for the long absence. Little time to spare but this needs an article. Added some sources to talk. Can you add more there if you have them? If someone starts filling it in I promise I will add more. Kisses, Tiamuttalk 19:03, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Lovely to see you! I have started "dumping stuff" at Talk:Beit Sakariya, not quite sure if it is on SWP map 17 or map 21? Huldra (talk) 21:52, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank You

WikiDefender Barnstar.png The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
For bravery and integrity during the Contribsx ArbCom case. Vordrak (talk) 23:09, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, thank you, User:Vordrak. I rarely get involved in these policy-issues (I´m basically a content-writer in the I/P aera)..but this was getting just too sickening. Glad he got desysopped, but there are still many unanswered questions about WMUK´s involvement. They have been less than complete transparent, put it that way. If there ever is a vote, I will vote for allotting 0,00 $ of WMF money to WMUK: they simply do not have my trust. Now, back to gnoming.... Huldra (talk) 23:33, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Formal mediation has been requested

The Mediation Committee has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Bayt Nattif". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. Mediation is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the request page, the formal mediation policy, and the guide to formal mediation, please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate. Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by 21 June 2015.

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Message delivered by MediationBot (talk) on behalf of the Mediation Committee. 19:32, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Restored Hebrew name for Palestinian Arab village

Regardless of what we feel about the justification for a Palestinian Arab village becoming an Israeli colony, we should still include the Hebrew place names for these places, don't you agree? Otherwise I think we risk letting our POV enter the role of arbiter of the inclusion of facts. Let me know what your thinking is on this issue. Andrevan@ 01:42, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

User:Andrevan: I will answer on the article talk page where this discussion belongs (I also note it was raised there, but brought to you less than an hour later: long before I had a chance to reply), Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:29, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Abu Zurayq has been nominated for Did You Know

DYK for Abu Zurayq

 — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:15, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Following up

Hi Huldra,

I saw your note and wanted to check in to see if you had any more information that might be useful for a possible bug report or feature request. If something wasn't working or didn't do what you want, then please let me know what you tried to do or what happened. (If you just didn't like it, then that's fine; I personally use both editing systems, depending upon what I want to do.)

Also, as a point of clarification, the goal isn't to make VisualEditor "the default"; the proposal is to make both options available, and to let editors choose which one they want to use (for each edit). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

@Whatamidoing (WMF): Thank you for your note. Firstly, I should tell you that I mostly edit articles which comes under “Wikiproject Palestine”. Now, there are 3 things that count there, and that is references, references and references. Unreferenced, or badly referenced info is normally quickly removed from the articles. (We have many, many pro-Israeli editors who make sure of that!)

Since the same books often are referenced several times, we normally place the reference in a Biblio-section, and then use a “simple” ref in the article. Look at the above recent DYK, Abu Zurayq, for an example. And since the books often have extensive previews, we try to link to the page, like: <ref name="Benvenisti74">Benvenisti, 2000, p. [ 74]</ref> How can I do that using the VE?

The above was a very simple example. A lot of the modern sources use books from pre-1900: say all the Pringle and Sharon-books I have mentioned in User:Huldra/Sources. Now, the wonderful thing is that these old sources are not copy-righted, and have all come online these last 10 years, either on or (+ some other placed, like gutenberg). Now, even if not all the Pringle, or Sharon-pages are online, we can always link directly to their sources! Which is a wonderful thing to be able to, and is what I do, all the time. Take Mi'ilya, where a sentence like:
“In 1179 Viscountess Petronella of Acre sold the houses, vineyards and gardens of Mi'ilya to Count Jocelyn III, uncle of Baldwin IV,”
have as reference:
"Strehlke, 1869, pp. 11-12, No. 11; cited in Röhricht, 1893, RRH, p. 156, No. 587; cited in Pringle, 1997, p. 71" that even if people cannot see the Pringle-page, they can always see his Strehlke and Röhricht-sources, as there is no copy-right on them.

How can I do references like this in VE? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:35, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

You only want to add sources like this? It's not too complicated: "Cite" button, "Manual" tab, "Basic form", and type it like you would type it out in the article itself. As with all links, the easiest thing to do is to type the label first (e.g., the "71" for the page number) and then select that and add the link to it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 07:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
  • @Whatamidoing (WMF): Thank you for that; I actually just did my first VE edit, ever, over at Aboud. A very simple edit: instead of linking to the whole of the 1922-census, I linked just to the page. Ok, I could do it, but is was a heck of a lot more cumbersome than doing it without the VE. (I´m not sure what you mean with "label" in the above, I normally use "label" for things like <ref name=Label1/>)
  • In short: the type of links that I typically add, will always be complicated. The problem (for me) about the VE is that it just adds a level of obfuscation to the editing; an unnecessary level for me,
  • And I remain quite unconvinced that what is "muddying the waters" for me, will be easy and transparent for a newbie, Huldra (talk) 07:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I seem to be speaking technical jargon today. "Label" is the part of the link that's visible to the user – the "foo" part in [[bar|foo]]. VisualEditor's system for creating links works like what people usually do in word processing documents and e-mail programs. For example, if you're sending a message at, and you want it to say "foo" but take the person to, then you first type "foo", and then highlight it, open the link tool, and type the URL into the blank. The wikitext system of typing the URL/target first and "foo" second is unusual. (This is probably why RecentChanges patrollers sometimes see newbies getting it backwards, i.e., typing [[bar|foo]] when they wanted [[foo|bar]].) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Oh, and there is actually an unofficial workaround for adding wikitext to citations. You can see the steps at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback/Archive 2015 2#Cannot use pre-formatted citations from NLA Trove. It's not elegant, but it does work. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Ok, thanks, @Whatamidoing (WMF): for the explanation. But the fact remains: the VE, even if it "can handle" the type of references I´m adding, still just makes editing more cumbersome for me.
Now, what would really have helped me, would be a nice little tool which distinguished between what is in the text, and what is in the ref. Take a look at the "raw" text of Mi'ilya again: having what is inside the <ref> </ref> in, say, another another colour, would ease the editing greatly. Why don´t you implement a tool like that? Huldra (talk) 21:33, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Probably because it already exists: just turn on User:Cacycle/wikEd in your prefs (gadgets, middle of the screen under ==Editing==). I tried it a few years ago, and eventually turned if off. It felt slow, and I didn't want to figure out how to get syntax highlighting without any of the other features. The WMF's Editing group is looking at some needed upgrades to the wikitext editor, and this will be one of the things that gets considered – but that's likely to be a couple of years from now.
I agree that VisualEditor isn't the best choice in every instance. It's less convenient for some tasks (e.g., adding the same parameter to an infobox in hundreds of articles). There's also a bit of a learning curve for some things, and I can easily imagine an occasional editor not wanting to learn how to use 'the new thing'. But I also consistently hear that straight copyediting is easier when you don't have to look at the wikitext markup, and tables are easier (even for someone like me, and I frequently type out the code for a table from memory on pages VisualEditor isn't available). I want people to have the choice, and to use whichever one they want, whenever they want. I use both myself. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:56, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Eeeeeeech: I switched the wikEd on, and got just about the most unattractive editing page I have ever seen in my life. With half a zillion gadgets I never asked for. Puh: now off. That wikiEd was *way* overdone. You know, there was this old cartoon, starting with what a 5 year old (=customer) wanted, then ending up which what the engineering department came down with, and what the lawyers specified.... The 5-year old (=me!!) wants a simple boat to play with in the pond. The engineering department and lawyers came down with a 15 trillion hangar ship. That was wikiEd. I´m familiar with the "nice to have" concept, it is just that in our time and age that becomes "too much to have".
As for VE: it comes down to what I started with. In the area I edit, references are the key issue. Copyediting and tables are "icing on the cake", and generally, we are not there yet. (On minor numbers of articles: yes) Huldra (talk) 23:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
"Too much" was my reaction to WikEd as well. I really wanted just syntax highlighting, and not necessarily a lot of that. In happier news, I have confirmed that syntax highlighting is on the list for future work on the wikitext editor. Perhaps if you and I write the tasks up for Phabricator:, then we'll get what we want.  ;-) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF), well, I´m afraid that link was a bit daunting, Phabricator was a bit more understandable.
Back in 2009 I had a great problem, in that a user started the articles on all the villages here: Template:Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus. That made it impossible to see which articles were developed, and which not. -John Vandenberg fixed it by this magic. Now, due to User:Huldra/monobook.css, I see all the stub-articles on that template as red-linked: a great, great help navigating around. I was hoping for a fix, something like that. (With the monobook.css, I can choose whatever colour I want: for text vs references I would probably try with some grey for the references, vs white for article text. Please give me a call if something like that is ever implemented! Huldra (talk) 21:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Qasim al-Ahmad, Beit Wazan has been nominated for Did You Know

DYK for Qasim al-Ahmad

Gatoclass (talk) 11:02, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Beit Wazan

Gatoclass (talk) 11:03, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Aqil Agha

Hi Huldra. As you know, I've been working on the Aqil Agha draft page lately. I was wondering if you would like to move it to mainspace soon. It's under @Tiamut:'s user page, but because she's been inactive as of late, I thought I'd ask you since you had been editing the page with her from the start. The sourcing needs to be finished i.e. the citations need to be fully referenced in the Bibliography, and there are some minor issues (which I will bring up at the draft's talkpage later) that need to be addressed, but other than that, it appears ready for mainspace. We could nominate it for DYK and work on bringing it to GA status in the near future along with Daher el-Omar. --Al Ameer (talk) 22:54, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: heh, Tiamut copied that first draft from from User:Huldra/Sources back in 2010; and I think I speak for both of us when I say we would both be delighted if it *finally* moved into article-space. It is way, way, overdue. But as you note: some refs are are missing in the biblio, I note:
  • Abujaber
  • Manna, ed. Mattar, p
  • Mattar, p. 347

....for a start.

It is way, way above the average DYK, IMO, but not quite there when it it comes to GA, yet, (Daher el-Omar is obviously closer), cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:43, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Great to hear. I say we move it tomorrow or the day after. I plan on nominating Daher el-Omar soon. There's some more material I want to add first, we also need to address the naming issue (I'm just waiting a couple days for other users' opinions, if any) and it would be nice to have a map showing the extent of his rule (which I recently requested from the Graphics Lab). --Al Ameer (talk) 03:23, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Aqil Agha has been nominated for Did You Know's talk page

quack, quack!

Hi, I noticed that you recently reverted the IP's edit(s) on thei talk page. Per WP:REMOVED, "Policy does not prohibit users, whether registered or unregistered users, from removing comments from their own talk pages, although archiving is preferred. The removal of material from a user page is normally taken to mean that the user has read and is aware of its contents. There is no need to keep them on display and usually users should not be forced to do so.". Per WP:OWNTALK, "Although archiving is preferred, users may freely remove comments from their own talk pages. Users may also remove some conten". There was no reason to edit war for restoring the warnings when the IP didn't want to keep them. Please keep this in mind next time. 18:31, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Callmemirela, hi, I have given my reasons here, cheers, Huldra (talk) 18:35, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah

Hey Huldra. Does the aforementioned village correspond with Gariyya al-Kubra in Nahia Butayna? If it does, could you add the 1596 info on the village to the article? --Al Ameer (talk) 04:11, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

No, Gariyya al-Kubra is given as Levant grid 304/200, which is about 32°23′N, not the 32°44′N listed for al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah. Zerotalk 06:03, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
@Al Ameer son: But something is wrong. The coordinates given at al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah, 32°44′N 36°12′E, are actually the coordinates of Khirbet Ghazaleh, which is what old and new maps show at that place. Al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah must be somewhere else. Zerotalk 07:06, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
@Zero0000: I corrected the coords at al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah. The coords for Gariyya al-Kubra appear to place it in Jordan. What about Gariyya as-Suqra 7+ (265/233)? --Al Ameer (talk) 18:47, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
User:Al Ameer son: Gariyya al-Kubra is so far east that it is still in Syria. Have not figured out which place, yet, though. But Gariyya as-Suqra 7+ (265/233) is definitely either Al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah or nearby Al-Ghariyah al-Sharqiyah: I`m not 100% certain; but my bet is on Al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah: looks closer to 265. Check with Zero. And lots of those Syrian places are in dire need of cleaning up: will try to do some, starting with Robinson and Smith. Also please check Maaraba: linked from Daraa Governorate, but is in the Al-Tall-district? Are there two places with the same name? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:49, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
@Zero0000: What do you think?
@Al Ameer son: al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah is at 265/233 and al-Ghariyah al-Sharqiyah is at 268/232 (Palestine grid in both cases). Zerotalk 00:44, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. So it appears that Gariyya al-Suqra is Ghariya al-Gharbiya. Could one of you add the 1596 info to it? --Al Ameer (talk) 01:33, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
User:Al Ameer son: Done, Huldra (talk) 20:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
To Huldra: I'm gonna try to work a little on the Hauran villages of Syria here and there. The Maaraba of Rif Dimashq is separate from the Maaraba of Daraa. I'll make the adjustment to the template. Thanks for adding some of the Robinson info. --Al Ameer (talk) 00:43, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Apropos topological doubling: we have a Qaryatayn in Syria, but no, as far as I can see, Qaryatayn for the Palestinian village, 5 miles south of Susiya, razed in 1948, and from whose refugees some of the present-day Susiyans descend.Nishidani (talk) 07:53, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
User:Nishidani: Interesting; from what I can see, that Qaryatayn is inside the -48 borders of Israel; it should have been in the Template:Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:25, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
I see Kh. al Qaryatein at 161/084 but I don't see anything on it in the 1948 period. Called Tel Qeriyyot in Hebrew. Tsafrir, Dauphin, etc. SWP: Kh. el Kureitein. Guerin Jud. III, 180. Zerotalk 00:51, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
The oral story is that they were told to fuck off, and walked back into the designated Palestinian area. Since they practiced transhumance from Arad (and apparently it now seems had Ottoman title also to 700 odd acres in the Susiya area) one can't quite pin them to fixed settlement, which is an alien concept. Thanks chaps. If after August 5, one can obtain Meiri's mapping of those 700 acres of Susiya Palestinian land, it will make the split in that article, which appears to have gone ahead without discussion, somewhat difficult.Nishidani (talk) 06:14, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Did you drop me a cautionary note on the 20th?

cautionary note on the 20th? Nishidani (talk) 16:57, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Nishidani: Yeah, I did. It is about the same old, same old. There are Stewards on meta who apparently are very familiar with the issue, though; my user-page is now protected, there, too. (Hmrpph: all this waste of time..... Cheers, Huldra (talk) 19:25, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Would you email me please?

Hi Huldra,

I wonder if you would be kind enough to send me an email at I have something I'd like to update you on. Thanks, Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 09:22, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

@Philippe (WMF): Hi, I have emailed you, Huldra (talk) 10:55, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. I have replied. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 11:11, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

1596 stats

Hey Huldra, whenever you have time could you add the 1596 info for Maaraba (I think it could be p67 Maraba 7+ (224/241)), Jamla (mz22 Jamla 7+ (229/245)) and al-Shajara, Syria (either p65 Sajara 7+ (232/242) or mz13 Sajara (238/227)). --Al Ameer (talk) 01:51, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Maraba 7+ (224/241) is around 32°46′N 35°47′E, as you can check from the Kafer el Ma-map, here, in other words: not Maaraba,_Daraa.
However, Jamla 7+ (229/245) pretty much agrees with Jamla 35°51E 32°48N; which would match nicely with Sajara 7+ (232/242) for al-Shajara, Syria 35°52′ E 32°46′N. I´ll add the data for Jamla and al-Shajara, Syria later today, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 10:21, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Done, please don´t hesitate to suggest more; or suggest it on User:Huldra/HA, cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:55, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, and don't worry, I'll keep them coming ;) --Al Ameer (talk) 21:11, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Maaraba, which redirect into Maaraba, Rif Dimashq is far too north to be in HA, but Maaraba, Daraa is 284/217 on 22M-Bosra-map = on User:Huldra/HA#p.219. Will add it later today, Huldra (talk) 02:58, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Kafr Nasij - mz61 Kafr Nasij 7+ (247/284) --> map 19l, cannot find at the moment
  • Al-Hirak, Syria - mz51 Harak as-Sarqi 7+ (273/239) or mz46 al-Harak al-Garbi 7+ (271/239)
  • Maliha al-Atash - mz47 Malihat az-Zaytun 7+ (278/241) --Al Ameer (talk) 23:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Kafr Nasij is mz61 Kafr Nasij 7+ (247/284) --> map 19l, Sanameine: will add later today
    • Al-Hirak, Syria is mz51 Harak as-Sarqi 7+ (273/239) on -->Karak-map, 21m, though al-Harak al-Garbi 7+ (271/239) is so close, it could possibly be included (It is called "Deir es Salt": deserted in 1838): will add later today
    • Maliha al-Atash is possibly - mz47 Malihat az-Zaytun 7+ (278/241); named Maliha esh Charqiye on Karak-map, 21m; but if so: the co-ords in Maliha al-Atash are wrong; as those co-ords are too far north. Could you please check them? Will add the Al-Hirak, Syria -info tomorrow, Huldra (talk) 23:46, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Maliha al-Atash is in the correct position (according to google-earth) and it is definitely not mz47 Malihat az-Zaytun 7+ (278/241). In fact it is not old at all; not there on the 1952 -maps. (The Kerak-Map). The Burckhardt and Robinson-sources in the article must be about another "Maliha": I will remove them,
    • mz47 Malihat az-Zaytun 7+ (278/241) is Al-Maliha al-Sharqiyah in the Izra District: not made yet, Huldra (talk) 08:08, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

File:معبد_الإله_تيكة.jpg at Commons

I'm sorry but I had to decline your undeletion request over there. It looks like the image at the Arabic WP was not uploaded by the original photographer either. Please see the section at Commons:Undeletion requests for more details. De728631 (talk) 23:26, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Your detailed explanation is appreciated, Huldra (talk) 23:31, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Striking out of Settleman's comments at AfD

While I understand your concern about socking with the recent case of ISavedPvtRyan and history of socking in this area, I am not sure it is a good idea to cross out their comments without an SPI case determining them to be a sock. Kingsindian  17:33, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Aqil Agha

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 17:11, 8 August 2015 (UTC)


user:Emanquresu is probably a sock of Settleman... ([3]) Pluto2012 (talk) 07:32, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Pluto2012: Early days, but I don´t see the need for that extra account... we will see, Huldra (talk) 08:36, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Shihab al-Din tomb

Hi Huldra. I'm trying to clarify some things about the so-called Shihab al-Din tomb in Nazareth. The sources are conflicting, with some saying the tomb is the burial place of Shihab al-Din (a nephew of Saladin), some imply that this is a local belief, some say it was that of a Muslim/Sufi sage. I came across a snippet of Andrew Petersen's Gazeteer on page 241 and it says something about a "Maqam Shihab al-Din al-Qarafi". Do you have that book? If so, could you help me sort this out? I want to start an article to clear the matter up as part of a general improvement of Wikipedia's info on Nazareth. --Al Ameer (talk) 03:57, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Petersen, p. 241 does not say who the Maqam is for, he just describes it. Here is the complete description, on that page:

Maqam Shihab al-Din al-Qarafi (Fig. 90, Plates 254-255) This is located approximately 200m south of the Church of the Annunciation. The shrine stands in a small lane opposite Khan al-Pasha.

The floor level in the shrine is approximately 2m below that of the lane and is reached by a flight of stairs. The building consists of two parts, an old part covered by a dome, and a newer concrete part. The new part has a triangular plan and is joined on to the north side of the original structure. The older part has a rectangular plan consisting of a square area covered by a dome and a shallow iwan to the east. The dome rests on pendentives springing from large corner piers. There is a small doorway in the western wall providing access to the ablutions area. In the middle of the south wall is a modern flat wooden mihrab. The tomb of Shihab al-Din is located in the southern part of the iwan. It is likely that the eastern side of the iwan was originally open although it is now filled with a modern window.

Cheers, Huldra (talk) 11:00, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for info, I'll start the page soon, after a little more research. --Al Ameer (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


You might be interested in mw:User:Remember the dot/Syntax highlighter. I haven't tried it, but the screenshot looks nice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:50, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

User:WhatamIdoing thanks for the tip. I have installed it, my first impression is that 5 different colours is a bit much; but perhaps I will get used to it? Will try it for a while, anyway, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
User:WhatamIdoing: yeah, 5 different colours were about 3-4 too many. The boat still isn´t small enough! Huldra (talk) 21:01, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
It might be possible to do some CSS magic to make several go away. Do you want all syntax highlighted the same color, or only some things highlighted? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:29, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
User:WhatamIdoing: For me it would be great to just have everything inside a reference, including the "ref-tags" in one different colour, take a previous example:
“In 1179 Viscountess Petronella of [[Acre, Israel|Acre]] sold the houses, vineyards and gardens of Mi'ilya to Count [[Jocelyn III]], uncle of [[Baldwin IV]],”<ref name=1179>Strehlke, 1869, pp. [ 11]-12, No. 11; cited in Röhricht, 1893, RRH, p. [ 156], No. 587; cited in Pringle, 1997, p. [ 71]</ref> that I would see everything from (and including) "<ref name=1179>" to "</ref>" in one different colour. I don´t really need to have templates, or wikilinks, or any other syntax highlighted. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:33, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Al Ameer son/Shihab Din

This is hilarious. I knew Crosby, Stills and Nash were all over the place, but that's a bit far out of left field for them, I would think. Valuable lesson, maybe, about taking Google Book hits to the bank... Drmies (talk) 23:49, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Drmies Lol, yeah; I had to look several times before I understood what you were talking about. Btw, back in the day I met similar mess-up at the Moshe Sharon -books, but google seems to have cleaned it up by now, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:56, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Interesting subject matter, by the way. Has ArbCom written all over it, haha. I looked at a few of the books. Drmies (talk) 23:58, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
User:Drmies: yeah, it is an *extremely* sensitive issue, to put it mildly, Huldra (talk) 23:59, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Good luck to you and the other editor in writing it up. Let me know if trouble finds you again. Drmies (talk) 00:10, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
User:Drmies: thanks, and if you are alluding to my young Californian "fan", then this page has been wonderfully quiet since I got it semi-protected back in December: I really should have gotten that done earlier! There are some copy-cats out there, though; including a Telstra Internet IP from Australia (check that deleted edit). Hmm, I think I will refrain from welcoming any Telstra IP´s in the future... Huldra (talk) 20:11, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
I apologize on behalf of humanity. We're slime, aren't we. Well, I have a fan too, and they have a number of pages on their website devoted to me; apparently I'm a cunt of all types. Please do let me know if I can help, and Malik Shabazz, thanks. Drmies (talk) 21:03, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Nah, not *all* are slime... ;P ....and Malik Shabazz got a new (& well deserved) "shiny thing". If I could advice anything, it would be to permanently protect talk-pages much, much sooner than is normally done today. Look at the logs for this site, and see all the puke that admins have had to mop up over the years: such a waste of time. Oh, and also: please be aware of Telstra Internet IPs from Australia, typically on Template:Palestinians, Palestinian territories etc: removing East Jerusalem, or placing places on the West Bank "in Israel". They have done it uncountable times, under I don´t know how many IPs. They always get reverted, but still continues.....There really are some really strange people out there...... (But then I guess they would consider me really strange, too: adding boring little things like tax-records or census-numbers to countless articles on villages, etc...:) ) Huldra (talk) 21:31, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Question regarding phrasing

I think you meant "threatened" here, right? And, just for the record, I don't think a permablock is necessarily enough in instances like that, I would love to see real legal action be considered, if possible. John Carter (talk) 22:01, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

User:John Carter: oopsh, sorry, yes; -fixed it now. (As you might have guessed: I am not a native English speaker: please don´t hesitate to point out my mistakes, or correct them).
And I would *love* to see the WMF take legal action...I have been hammering them so they would do something; so far I have not seen much of an effect. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:09, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case opened

You may opt-out of future notification regarding this case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3/Notification list. You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3/Evidence. Please add your evidence by September 8, 2015, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:43, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


I have added a long quote in Grossman source on Susya. It can probably be used for other villages but I couldn't Identify most of them b/c of the names. Please take a look. Settleman (talk) 21:14, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I´ll try in a day ....or three. One problem is that a lot of those places in the Template:Hebron Governorate are still red-linked. (It was a huge problem in trying to map User:Huldra/Guerin) Huldra (talk) 21:24, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

10 Y

Should you be compared to Katrina ? [4]. :-) Pluto2012 (talk) 20:10, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

LOL! ..and I, who had hoped for cup-cakes, balloons and fire-works... (nothing wrong with lipstick on a pig....?) Huldra (talk) 20:13, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Can you please explain...

when an attrubution or a name should be followed with a short description? On Susya someone added to Regavim 'settler activist organization' though it is a link and also say 'an NGO which petitioned the Supreme Court to execute the demolition orders at Khirbet susya'. Yet, David Shulman is bias is clear cannot be accompanied with such description. Settleman (talk) 05:58, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Why is David Shulman's bias clear? Have you read him? It makes painful reading. He is far more restrained than what, were activists writing what he witnesses every week, others would say about the criminal violence of certain groups of settlers in the South Hebron Hills. There are numerous bullies and thugs among them. I grew up among bullies and thugs, and I never thought to defend them because they share my ethnic background, and neither does Shulman, a Jew who performed aliyah, is deeply attached to Israel and wants it to be a democracy. Calling a spade a spade is not bias. Regavim is using every means within its grasp to seize land, and evict its traditional societies, from the land, out of an ideological conviction that 'it is all ours'. Shulman is defending civil rights in the great tradition of American Jews without whom segregation would have persisted, and many civil rights we are now proud of would never have been established. If you cannot understand how important the reformist civil rights tradition is within the other Zion, the United States, is for Jews, old and young, then you will never understand why much of the battle for Palestinian rights is driven by the tradition of Jewish secular idealism, not by some blind ethnonationalist obsession with real estate at whatever cost to those whom it with relentless pitilessness uproots and expels. Settlements are incompatible with Israel as a democracy. Nishidani (talk) 17:24, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
User:Settleman: Two things: Firstly: I have learned -after editing here for a few years- to try to keep a conflict "contained", and not spreading it all over Wikipedia.
Secondly: I will admit I do not know the works of David Dean Shulman very well, (I have not read any of his books), but from what I can see he is first and foremost know as a scholar. If his Ta'ayush-activism was the only thing he was known for, then I doubt he would even have his own Wikipedia-bio. I therefore think it was totally uncalled for, what you did; going to a lot of articles, "labelling" him *only* as a Ta'ayush-activist. (But you might have noted that on, say Bil'in; I did *not* bring back "Israeli academic and pacifist", just left the link to his page.) Huldra (talk) 20:47, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Here for example, Shulman is the source for derogatory term 'fanatics'. I see WP:LABEL say these term should be used with care. Maybe it is OK to be left in because it is sourced but still, letting the reader know the author isn't exactly main stream opinion but rather of an activist of far-left organization, is important. I hope to get to library tomorrow. Settleman (talk) 22:31, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
User:Settleman: Well, from what I can read from that article (not that I trust Wikipedia, much!) "fanatics" seem like quite a mild term for the settlers of Ma'on, Har Hebron...attacking people with clubs?! Seriously. Nishidani´s expression "bullies and thugs" seems to fit better.
Looking forward to any Vilnai-info, Huldra (talk) 22:42, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Btw, WP:LABEL also say: "are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution". From my understanding of WP:LABEL: if Nishidani or myself had called the settlers of Ma'on, Har Hebron for 'fanatics' (based on their action) or even "bullies and thugs", then obviously, that would be cover by WP:LABEL, and should not be permitted. But here is case where it is used with "in-text attribution" Huldra (talk) 20:45, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
Isn't it nice to look at one side of the coin? Just a reminder, that year (2001) Yair Har-Sinai was murdered not far from there. The are extremists on both sides and bringing WP:LIBEL from an activist is silly. According to WP:BIASED this is required. Settleman (talk) 17:59, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for 10 wonderful years

Resilient Barnstar.png The Resilient Barnstar
This is in thanks to you for the 10 years you have spent helping to keep things here useful for the readers and, as far as possible, easier for the other editors to function in. And for your having served those ten years while having to endure things that few of us have been subjected to. And for spending a lot of that time in the minefield of the Israel-Palestine field. A lot of us have quit either the project or a topic area for far worse reasons, and it is very welcome to see someone show the courage to stand up even under the extreme provocation you have endured. John Carter (talk) 15:49, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
User:John Carter: Whaw! Very nice birthday-present, thanks! Huldra (talk) 20:45, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Tireless Contributor Barnstar Hires.gif The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
Congratulations on your wikidecade! Here's a big thank you from one editor who greatly appreciates your work, and should have acknowledged that many more times in the past. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
User:Oncenawhile Oh, la, la: thanks! Greatly appreciated! Huldra (talk) 22:59, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

For diligent addition of excellent new material, and for always trying to get the facts right, you are unbeatable! Congratulations, and welcome to the veterans club! Zerotalk 23:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Zero0000 Thanks! Huldra (talk) 23:54, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Australia IP

The IP is back reverting me again and unfortunately I will only be on mobile for a few hours. I thought I should let you know. Rubbish computer 15:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC) Rubbish computer 15:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Rubbish computer: Sigh, yeah, so far today I´ve noted:
I *do* wish they would find another hobby! Btw: thank you for your help! Huldra (talk) 20:24, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

They're all blocked at the moment, but I don't understand why these IPs keep getting temporarily blocked when they do nothing but vandalism, trolling and harrassment. Anyway, I'm back on my computer now.--Rubbish computer 21:47, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Rubbish computer: I assume it is because they are dynamic IPs, that is, each time they turn their computer, or server on/off, they will get a new IP. So there is no need to block them for more than a day or three: the person behind this has moved on to a new IP by then, Huldra (talk) 21:52, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
@Huldra: Okay. Rubbish computer 21:52, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Invitation to join the Ten Year Society

Ten Year Society.svg

Dear Huldra,

I'd like to extend a cordial invitation to you to join the Ten Year Society, an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for ten years or more.

Best regards, John Carter (talk) 21:00, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I actually just saw someone else get this invitation, and even though I ain't a member myself, I think anyone can at least advise potential members of their qualification. John Carter (talk) 21:00, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

User:John Carter: Heh; apparently I added myself to that exclusive group with this edit..... Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:06, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Template color

You have mail! Zerotalk 10:02, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Please revert

The census of 45 is mentioned by Regavim so we have a source who makes the claim. (It was also 1RR). Settleman (talk) 17:17, 6 September 2015 (UTC)


Hi, Beit HaShita was formed in the 1930s on the lands of the Arab village of Shatta (SWP:Shutta, 190/217) after it was purchased from the absentee owner and the residents evicted. After that, Arab Shatta ceased to be, though the name Shatta continued in use for a while. On the other hand, a lot of the usual sources refer to it. Would you recommend a separate article, or should it be an expansion of Beit HaShita? Refs: Not in Hutteroth, Guerin Sam I 301-303, Dauphin 776, census1922 Baisan list, Robinson1852 339, SWP II 126. There's lots of stuff on the 1930s purchase and court case (Huneidi, Kark, Stein, etc). Zerotalk 03:35, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

  • Very* interesting case.

Telstra vandal

Good luck with whatever you need to do about this. You're a strong person and a great editor. Rubbish computer 21:55, 12 September 2015 (UTC) Rubbish computer 21:55, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Rubbish computer Thanks, for the kind words. Huldra (talk) 22:15, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
You're welcome. --Rubbish computer 22:26, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
  • What does the vandal want anyway? The approach that comes to my mind is simply to figure out what he wants, then get together a bunch of people to deny it to him. Wnt (talk) 18:59, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
User:Wnt: That is really not to difficult to see; it is one of those 13 to the dozen editors who is allergic to the word "Palestine"; like here, changing everything into "Israel". He acts very much like my old friend: and rest assured: they are always reverted. But these are not, how can I put it? Eh, not very rational people. They go totally ballistic, like a 3 year old, when they are denied. And then comes the rape and death threats.......This has been going on for 5 years. You have no idea as to how thick a skin I have developed; the problem is: we are simply not getting new editors in this area of Wikipedia: they get scared out of their minds. This really has to stop. My thought was that if we range-blocked Telstra: that would "wake them up", to address the problem. I suspect that such a range-block would not last long (I´m hoping Australian Wikipedians will take their rage out on Telstra, not on me!) (And no: I don´t want the guy in jail; IMHO; he needs a doctor, or a shrink more than he needs a jailer.) Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:11, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
I am tempted to troll the troll by suggesting a move from Duma, Nablus to Duma, Palestine. It seems very wrong to me that this link has to be redirected in the first place. Honestly, I'd even prefer Duma, Israel though, simply because "Duma, Nablus" is the one article title we could have that you have to click on the link (or change it) to figure out where in the world it is. I looked up United Nations General Assembly observers and it's sort of a wash: Vatican City needs no specification; going to less related examples, Toi, Niue follows the convention, but Lugu, Nantou and cogeners use that awful county specification. Do you think I'd have a chance, or is this already settled somewhere? :) Wnt (talk) 22:06, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
User:Wnt Please don´t. The problem is that loads of these places have more or less similar names.... (they typically come from the same Arabic word): Taybeh (disambiguation) (=The goodly), Rumman (=pomegranate), Haditha (disambiguation) (=The New One), Tira. (Btw, each and every scholar on Middle East history have mixed up one or more of them....) The present naming structure has developed over years...hell will break lose if you unilaterally try to change it. As long as Duma, Palestine redirs to Duma, Nablus; I´m good. But using XX, Palestine, as main article is simply too generic.
Trolling the trolls isn´t really the answer, me thinks. Huldra (talk) 22:21, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Barnstar of Diligence Hires.png The Barnstar of Diligence
In great appreciation of your long-standing work on Wikipedia, your painstaking attention to detail and diligent search for accuracy.

P.S. I give out very few barnstars, so anyone receiving one from me can be sure that she has earned it! NSH001 (talk) 08:32, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

User:NSH001; coming from an editor I deeply respect: this is greatly appreciated! Thanks! Huldra (talk) 20:33, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

Cup-o-coffee-simple.svg I'm really sorry to hear about the Telstra mess. You have my support, and I wish you the best and thank you for all of your hard work. GABHello! 00:46, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
User:GeneralizationsAreBad: Mmmm, thanks! Taste nice! Huldra (talk) 21:11, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

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Your record of starting unnecessary AFDs

Do you have any idea how many articles could be created for Palestinians killed by Israelis? We dont do that. The ones that are created have a lasting impact per WP:NOTNEWS. You habitually create articles on every incident you can find with the apparent purpose of creating a narrative of Palestinians are "hooligans" or "terrorists" irrespective of whether or not it is routine news or has a lasting impact. What is clear is your standard for creating an article is: Palestinians bad. nableezy - 15:40, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Nableezy, individuals who throw rocks at human beings are hooligans, and, in the Palestinian case, terrorists with the avowed aim of driving Jews into the sea. This, in my opinion, has echoes on Wikipedia where editors like Huldra attempt to drive pro-Israel editors away by harassment and hounding. Note that no editor is required to create articles on every aspect of anything. What editors are required to do is to maintain a NPOV and to use sources fairly and accurately - a thing that I strive to do. As for choice of topic, I create lots of article - on things that interest me. I am interested, for example, in theater, but have little taste for Metalcore or hardcore punk. I therefore do not create article on Metalcore bands. What I do not do is iVote to delete well-sourced articles about Metalcore, or regularly bring articles about new Metalcore bands to AFD. I view Huldra's behavior in regularly bringing well-sourced articles about incidents judged significant by governments and the international press core to AFD as a form of WP:WIKIHOUNDING wherein she creates a lot of work for editors whose politics she dislikes, makes editing an exceedingly wearisome and unpleasant experience for editors who oppose the throwing of rocks at people, and makes the entire Israel/Arab sphere so battleground-like and unpleasant that many editors quit and editors who work on AFDs in other areas are reluctant to weigh in on AFDs related to the middle east conflict. I think that her practice of doing so is so longstanding and so clear that it amounts ot a strategy, and I would like her to rethink her aggression and highly POV evaluations of new articles.19:23, 21 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by E.M.Gregory (talkcontribs)
with the avowed aim of driving Jews into the sea lollll. Yeah, a rock is gonna do that. Or maybe they are people using whatever weapon they have available against a country that has much more sophisticated weapons and a repeatedly shown aversion to not using said weapons against them while illegally stealing their land and occupying their territory and subjugating them all while playing the victim card to the world, aided by those who look at, for example, the 34 Israelis killed by Palestinians since 2009 compared to the 641 Palestinians killed by Israelis in that same time and determine that only those 34 deaths are "notable" and "acts of terrorism" commited by "terrorists" or "holligans" with an aim of "driving Jews into the sea". And as far as the horseshit about editors needing to be NPOV and that you apparently maintain such, need I remind you of your attempt to rename an article about an arson that has been covered across the world into an article about the curious case of multiple arson attacks on two brothers in a transparent attempt to whitewash what settlers routinely do to the property and on occasion lives of the native population? Or your comment that said article should be deleted because it was just "rumors"? nableezy - 20:29, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
For children killed in the conflict, there already is about 100 times more material for each Jewish victim, compared to each Palestinian victim. For adults too: the amount of space the average Jewish victims is given is ridiculously higher than the space given to the average Palestinian victim. Yes: I confess: a Palestinian life is just as much worth to me as a Jewish, (or American, or European) life, If that makes me strange: I pity you. (And rest assured: all your "Only Jewish lives matter"-friends will turn up at that AfD. They always do.) Huldra (talk) 22:24, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Apparently, 'the world' (or at least the media) sees a difference which is why the coverage is so different. All palestinians, AFAICR, who were murdered by Israeli citizens in recent years got a massive coverage and an article. Mohammed Abu Khdeir, Duma arson attack or even the Beitunia killings where the Magavnick shot with no reason. The world doesn't care enough to write about a rioter being shot or a terrorist being taken out. So notability isn't a game of balance but actual coverage and interest of the public.
In this particular case, the attack may result in making punishment more severe which may makes it even more notable. Settleman (talk) 06:56, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes, do you want me to mention who control much of that media, and where their priorities/sympathies lie? And your "The world doesn't care enough to write about a rioter being shot or a terrorist being taken out," is most disingenuous; are children "a terrorist being taken out"? 1656 Palestinian children vs 131 Israeli children killed, and the Israeli children killed get 10 times more coverage? Who do you think you are fooling? Huldra (talk) 22:48, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
And,btw, you could also have mentioned Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Killing of Yehoshua Weisbrod and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Murder of Netanel Arami, cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:09, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Fascinating. No, appalling. Particularly the sources that popped up when I searched on Yehoshua Weisbrod. I am stunned , simply stunned reading about the bloody-mindedness and sheer cruelty. Cannot imagine why an article on an murder as horrific and widely-covered as that was deleted. So many witnesses. So many news stories. Even a United Nations peacekeeper sitting right there and failing to save this man as he was mobbed and bashed to death with rocks. Maybe there should be an article on: Death by stoning after taking a wrong turn in Gaza. Do you know how I can access the Wikipedia article you deleted?E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:24, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── ...and what the heck was he doing in Gaza? Note also the Deletion review. As for "the world' (or at least the media) sees a difference", iow, news-coverage being biased, take a look at the English news in the region, and note how many times they are used on Wikipedia:

  • Arutz Sheva: "Arutz Sheva": 643 213
  • Haaretz: 5,911 (Btw, even this Israeli newspaper, much criticised by the right for being to "Arab-friendly", note from the article: "A 2003 study in The International Journal of Press/Politics concluded that Haaretz‍ ' s reporting of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict was more favorable to Israelis than to Palestinians.")
  • The Jerusalem Post: 3,108
  • Yedioth Ahronoth: ynetnews: 1,537 ynet (Hebrew): 1,718
  • Ma'an News Agency: maannews: 48

.....the only "pro-Palestinian" source here is Ma'an News, the other are Israeli. In short; to me it looks as if English sources used from the region are overwhelmingly pro-Israeli. (Ok, this was just based on the "search" function here, which is not very good, I know. Eg. List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, July–December 2015 use several maan-sources , but it does not show up in search: apparently if you don´t mark it as a maan-source, it will not show in "search". If you have a better way to search: I´m listening.) Btw, what do you think the chances for 10 year old Ahmed Moussa from Ni'lin, shot and killed in 2008 by the Israeli military, having an article of his own....IF he had been Israeli/Jewish? I would think the chances would have been excellent. But now...? Oh, he is just "a rioter being shot or a terrorist being taken out", no-one to care about, eh? Huldra (talk) 21:09, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Identifying a place name

Hulda, I have a source that says that a person is from: Kafr Talouza (north of Nablus). Any idea what else it might be called / how else transliterated?E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:45, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

User:E.M.Gregory I would suspect they meant Talluza, northeast of Nablus. The word " Kafr" is often added to any village name, Huldra (talk) 23:50, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks. Do you suppose we could get the United Nations to work out an international convention on the transliteration of Arabic?E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:01, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
User:E.M.Gregory: Doubt it; though it would have been useful. I don´t know Arabic, but my impression is that those who do, seem to be generally against it. Btw, my nick is "Huldra", not "Hulda", and I *do* know what Hulda means in Hebrew, Huldra (talk) 22:04, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
I was joking. But I am sorry about misspelling your name, I am amng thw world's worst seplers.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:26, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
Lol, tht mst be after me.... of the reasons I contribute to English Wikipedia, and not to the Wikipedia in my native tongue, is that we don´t have a good spell-checker in my native tongue. Seriously. So there my dyslexia is very clear....In English I´m better hiding it.... Huldra (talk) 20:32, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

DRN for Duma

Here. Settleman (talk) 06:37, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


As per your request, I posted you at WP:ANI. I am not sure, what will come of this. Depends if admins will see this as a behavioral issue, a content dispute or a WP:ARBPIA problem. Debresser (talk) 17:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Prodding for discussion at DRN: Duma arson attack#Ya'alon on Jewish extremists

Hello Huldra, just checking to see if you are wanting to join the discussion occurring at the dispute resolution noticeboard concerning the article Duma arson attack. If you could please either join or let us know that you do not wish to join the discussion, that would be much appreciated. Thanks, Drcrazy102 (talk) 02:33, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Drcrazy102, thank you for the reminder, I´m working on a reply, but I´m not yet quite sure if I will involve myself here, Huldra (talk) 21:59, 26 September 2015 (UTC)


I just want to warn you that edits and edit summaries like this will get you at ArbCom. Debresser (talk) 17:28, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Uh no, the territory is occupied, and attempts to whitewash that will not go over well. nableezy - 18:20, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Nableezy That may be as is, but the issue is that the edit was wrong, because 1. it ignored consensus which was obtained in a very long discussion on that talkpage 2. Jordanian was also occupation, as you changed later yourself. So please be a little less hasty to judge my edits next time. Debresser (talk) 21:02, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
The consensus? Are you serious? And why did you just again leave the Jordanian occupation described as an occupation but changed Israel back to control, in violation of both NPOV and the 1RR. nableezy - 21:06, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
I did not, look again. Both headers say "control". Debresser (talk) 22:50, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Well then both are wrong. And theres still the issue of the 1RR. nableezy - 22:57, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
We disagree on the word "control", which was the result of a long discussion and IMHO reflects better than any other word the situation. As far as 1RR is concerned, I changed 1 word from a whole edit, based on a the fact that the edit ignored a clear consensus regarding that word. As such, I do not think it is correct to insist on formalities. As Irondome already wrote on my talkpage, that if all editors would abide by clear consensus and not try to push a POV, there would be no need for the revert. In any case, this talkpage warning is about Huldra, who will find himself boomeranged into ArbCom or a user review very soon, I guess. Debresser (talk) 08:31, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, thats still a revert. And you arguing against everybody else does not a consensus make that is in your favor. nableezy - 15:27, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Look. I had exactly the same problem as you re 1R. I didn't interpret it well, and was often confused. I was always being accused of 1R infractions under threat of being reported. I resolved this nuisance by asking an expert third party to make a technical call each time. What you are doing is unacceptable. You clearly persistently break that rule, and when kindly notified, you either ignore the message or adopt dilatory tactics, or excuses. The excuse here is 'I changed 1 word from a whole edit'. Christ, man, I have been reported and suspended for changing one word, in the good old days. Why do you assume you have a special entitlement to push beyond a limit the rest of responsible and experienced editors here accept? Nishidani (talk) 11:27, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────@Debresser and Nableezy: please move your developing argument onto your own talk pages as I am sure Huldra does not what their talk page cluttered by it. Also, don't forget to be civil and not attack/threaten users, including attempts to use ArbCom as a means of ending arguments and opposition. There are better ways of putting messages and they are called "civil" and "neutral". Remember that please. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 22:08, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Drcrazy102, well, I wish arguments about the 1RR should go to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Debresser reported by User:Huldra (Result: ) (where it looks as if Debresser will be blocked if he does not Nishidani, Nableezy, Irondome and myself repeatedly have asked him to do.) As for being threatened with ArbCom, or being called " belligerent", that is nearly a daily occurrence when editing with Debresser, it seems. He has already reported me to ANI, at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Huldra, and I`m not sure the resulting discussion there is what he would have wished for. Huldra (talk) 22:41, 29 September 2015 (UTC)