User talk:Ish ishwar

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note to self: write something on mirative, Non-configurational language, Category talk:Indigenous languages of the Americas#Terrence Kaufman's "geolinguistic regions"



Contents

Navaho language[edit]

I posted query for assistance on Rich Farmbrough's talk page. I'm copying you, Ish ishwar, since you were mentioned.

The section "Language status" has a disputed note on it that dates back to January 2013. It refers one to the talk page, which I'm guessing is referring to the section "Is the language in decline, or incline?" The discussion is only two comments, a question by an ip address and a response by Ish ishwar who is still active on Wikipedia. The latter appears to me to settle the "dispute" by providing an adequate clarification. Additionally, it would appear the introduction has been edited to delete the contradiction. Is there any way to resolve this and delete the tag?

It seems to me that leaving the tag for so long on the article undermines not only its integrity but the credibility of Wikipedia as a whole. Cheers! (glad the # of drama free days is approaching 2 months) --Beth Wellington (talk) 20:24, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Where did you find the info on the Western Apache language? I just found a youtube video that explains the whole alphabet. --Fdomanico51997 (talk)

Jemez and Bell (1993)[edit]

Hi. A while ago, you added Bell (1993) to the Jemez language article in the bibliography section. I don't have access to this reference. If you do, and have some time, the page could really benefit from some help. Just whenever you get around to it. Thanks. Joeystanley (talk) 13:45, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Map Request[edit]

Hello, I noticed your fine map work for the Ahtna language and Tlingit language and was worndering if you might be up to the task of making one for the Eyak language. I think it would greatly add to the article. Thanks, Vedrfolnir (talk) 17:19, 15 April 2010 (UTC) HI, I AM LOOKING FOR MY PEOPLE, AND EVERY HISTORIAN WITH FAMILY TREES AND COLLEGES CANNOT FIND MY PPL BEFORE WOUNDED KNEE. BRANDY(FLYING HAWK)MEEKS meeksbrandy96@gmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.171.106.206 (talk) 05:04, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

I have a passing interest in linguistics, and I recently came across some of your older contributions and edits. I am surprised at the depth and extent of your contributions, and I think what you have added to WP is tremendous. I am afraid that you have left WP without proper acknowledgement, I hope you continue your research and interest into languages, especially Native American. Edgar Vekilnik, Jr. (talk) 02:38, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Intensifier[edit]

Again, please see my reply at Talk:Intensifier. – Keith Cascio (talk) 22:16, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Intensifier. – Keith Cascio (talk) 04:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Optimality Theory[edit]

Hello,

Why did you turn back my contributions on Optimality Theory ("because regressive assimilation of the final segment always applies first after /ɪ/-insertion, so that it prevents other rules from applying; see also bleeding order")? There 's nothing wrong with this approach, it's just another version of classic order ranking. Greets, Solejheyen (talk) 18:16, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

hi.
so, we should talk about this on the OT page. – ishwar  (speak) 02:55, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


see: Talk:Optimality theory#rule ordering revertishwar  (speak) 03:10, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi![edit]

As of late, our paths on Wikipedia have not crossed. I just wanted to let you know that I do think of your contributions. Be well. CJLippert (talk) 19:31, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

hi.
i dont have so much time these days to edit. I hope youre well, too.
take care – ishwar  (speak) 20:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Color term vs name[edit]

I revert your move of color name to color term since the page covers names and not terms such as value, lightness, tone, shade, etc. PaleAqua (talk) 03:16, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

you actually reverted more than that. – ishwar  (speak) 04:04, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Reverting my reverts now. PaleAqua (talk) 07:00, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

English grammar[edit]

As the primary author, would you like to weigh in at Talk:English_grammar#Suggest_splitting? Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:40, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

hi.
feel free to edit and split. I'm sure it will be fun. – ishwar  (speak) 20:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

archives[edit]

Replaceable fair use Image:Navajolang-readingAdahooniligii.jpg[edit]

Replaceable fair use

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redlink Morphological Doubling Theory[edit]

Issues with Tlingit map[edit]

Hi; I happened across your File:Tlingit-map.png last night and noted some issues on it:

  • the Tsetsaut have been extinct since the 19th Century, their territory is now part of the Nisga'a Lisims
  • Nass-Gitskan may be a language, but AFAIK the Nass people consider their language distinct from Gitxsan, if only in choice of orthography I wouldn't know; but they are politically separate/distinct despite shared cultural traditions/relations (clans etc). Point is, I guess, is this a map of language areas, or of territorial identity/claims? If the latter both Nisga'a and Gitxsan territories extend quite a bit further inland/north
  • discrete boundaries are always an issue as many people's lands overlap; Nisga'a and Gitxsan claims overlap with those of the Tahltan, for instance; but more to the point, The Taku River-Atlin Lake-Teslin Lake area is subjet to the "rule" of two kwaans of the Tlingit - Aa tlein kwaan and Desleen kwaan or something like that; their band government is the Taku River Tlingit First Nation and ethnigraphically they are known as the Inland Tlinkit, and they're found right up into the Yukon (kinda "top dog" in the pecking order in Whistehorse, as I was told bup there....).; those areas should at least be stripe-shaded, given the overlaping calims with the Tucthcone/Tahltan/Tagish.
  • There's a good map of Tlingit kwaanas on one of the refs on the History of the Tlingit page, I'll see if i can find it.Skookum1 (talk) 17:11, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

NowCommons: File:Mono home.jpg[edit]

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Unreferenced BLPs[edit]

Information.svg Hello Ish ishwar! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 1 of the articles that you created is tagged as an Unreferenced Biography of a Living Person. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. If you were to bring this article up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current 2,891 article backlog. Once the article is adequately referenced, please remove the {{unreferencedBLP}} tag. Here is the article:

  1. John R. Ross - Find sources: "John R. Ross" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · HighBeam · JSTOR · free images · free news sources · The Wikipedia Library · NYT · WP reference

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 05:14, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi, would you be so kind as to give us support![edit]

Hello, I hope you are doing fine and I sincerely apologize for this intrusion. My name is Claudi Balaguer/Capsot (from the Catalan Viquipèdia or the Occitan Wikiccionari) I have just read your profile and you seem a very learned person and interested in (small) languages and cultures (talking to linguists may be fun sometimes...) so maybe I am not bothering you and you will help us... I'm part of an association "Amical de la Viquipèdia" which is trying to get some recognition as a Catalan Chapter but this has not been approved up to this moment because it does not belong to one state. We would appreciate your support, visible if you stick this on your first page: Wikimedia CAT. Thanks again, wishing you a great summer, take care! Capsot (talk) 07:53, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Theoretical Linguistics[edit]

Hello, I am trying to bring WP:WikiProject Theoretical Linguistics back to semi-active status. Toward that end, I have moved all members who have not posted to the project page in the past six months to a section, "Inactive members." If you wish to be active in the project, I hope you will move your name back to the section, "Members." You may also remove your name if you are no longer interested in the project. Thanks, and happy editing, Cnilep (talk) 17:54, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Chiricahua Ft. Sill seal.jpg[edit]

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The Munsee language[edit]

Hi. Can you point me to the source you and Nikater relied on when you created this map? I'm involved in an editorial dispute with another editor who insists that material based on that map is wrong. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 17:37, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi.
I didnt create the map. Rather it seems to have been based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lenapehoking.png. I dont know why I'm listed as co-author.
The images I created are here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ishwar. All maps list their source unless later editors have removed this information (several folks have converted the png files to svg & sometimes they didnt indicate that I created the png source file.) Anyone who is creating a detailed map should not be using my maps of the entire north American continent since these maps lack detail and may be the result of a compromise of changing boundaries of tribes over time. The map sources that I used for these entire continent maps try show the distribution of tribes at first European contact which may differ from tribe to tribe.
If you want accurate information, I suggest starting with the Handbook of North American Indians Northeast volume. This volume was published several years, so the information may (or may not) be outdated by more current research. I cant say for sure since I dont know anything about northeastern Indians. (I'm just a linguist that happens to have specialist knowledge in Apachean languages, which are at the opposite end of the continent.)
ishwar  (speak) 20:18, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Harry Hoijer.jpg[edit]

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Fair use rationale for File:Harry Hoijer.jpg[edit]

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Thanks for uploading or contributing to File:Harry Hoijer.jpg. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia constitutes fair use. Please go to the file description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

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What was your reason for reverting me edit?[edit]

Refer to that talk page: Talk:Americanist_phonetic_notation#Why is it correct to tag non-IPA symbols as IPA?. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 01:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Still no answer? --Mahmudmasri (talk) 05:54, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Mongolian language[edit]

An article that you have been involved in editing, Mongolian language has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments good article reassessment page . If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. RcsprinterGimme a message 17:26, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Non-Free rationale for File:Jaco Pastorius - Donna Lee melody excerpt.ogg[edit]

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Zuni[edit]

Hi Ish ishwar

I've seen that you known the Zuni language. I have a question for you about its orthography. I've created on the french Wiktionary wattsita for dog, transcribed from a paper by Lynn Nichols in the IJAL. However I've seen in a link (Zuni Language) a wordlist where it is wattsida. Is there a rule for writing -t- and -p- intervocally as -d- and -b-? Thanx. Dhegiha (talk) 10:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

MSU Interview[edit]

Dear Ish ishwar,

My name is Jonathan Obar user:Jaobar, I'm a professor in the College of Communication Arts and Sciences at Michigan State University and a Teaching Fellow with the Wikimedia Foundation's Education Program. This semester I've been running a little experiment at MSU, a class where we teach students about becoming Wikipedia administrators. Not a lot is known about your community, and our students (who are fascinated by wiki-culture by the way!) want to learn how you do what you do, and why you do it. A while back I proposed this idea (the class) to the communityHERE, where it was met mainly with positive feedback. Anyhow, I'd like my students to speak with a few administrators to get a sense of admin experiences, training, motivations, likes, dislikes, etc. We were wondering if you'd be interested in speaking with one of our students.


So a few things about the interviews:

  • Interviews will last between 15 and 30 minutes.
  • Interviews can be conducted over skype (preferred), IRC or email. (You choose the form of communication based upon your comfort level, time, etc.)
  • All interviews will be completely anonymous, meaning that you (real name and/or pseudonym) will never be identified in any of our materials, unless you give the interviewer permission to do so.
  • All interviews will be completely voluntary. You are under no obligation to say yes to an interview, and can say no and stop or leave the interview at any time.
  • The entire interview process is being overseen by MSU's institutional review board (ethics review). This means that all questions have been approved by the university and all students have been trained how to conduct interviews ethically and properly.


Bottom line is that we really need your help, and would really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. If interested, please send me an email at obar@msu.edu (to maintain anonymity) and I will add your name to my offline contact list. If you feel comfortable doing so, you can post your nameHERE instead.

If you have questions or concerns at any time, feel free to email me at obar@msu.edu. I will be more than happy to speak with you.

Thanks in advance for your help. We have a lot to learn from you.

Sincerely,

Jonathan Obar --Jaobar (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chlopeck (talkcontribs) 22:56, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Southern Athabascan grammar typo?[edit]

I think there is a misspelling in your original article Southern Athabascan grammar. Search for "betwitch" in that article. Since the three uses are near the word "witch", I think you meant to use the word "bewitch"? 24.28.17.231 (talk) 10:01, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Kindness Barnstar Hires.png The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
Thank you for teaching me how to pronounce ejective sounds (on the List of Phonetics Topics talk page). Alázhlis (talk) 00:42, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

June 2012[edit]

Your recent editing history at Navajo language shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 03:41, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

flap realization of Hopi /r/[edit]

Dear Ish ishwar,

It's the first time I've used a talk page, so please excuse my amateur mistakes. I note that you have contributed to the Hopi_language page, and there I see "The retroflex r varies between a retroflex fricative ... and a flap". I'd _love_ to consult with whoever has noted these flaps. I've noted these flaps (or taps) myself, especially in the village of Orayvi, and I've had trouble getting book reviewers to believe me. Did you by any chance write the part about the flaps? or do you know how I could find the author? Thanks Krbeesley (talk) 01:33, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi.
You're very lucky I was logged in to Wikipedia on the same day that you wrote me this note. I rarely check Wikipedia these days.
Yes, I added probably all of the notes about Hopi phonology including that bit about /r/. Just to be clear, I've never heard Hopi in the wild. And, I don't run in Uto-Aztecan circles. (My specialist knowledge of American languages is in Athabascan, especially Apachean.)
The only person that I know of who noted the flap realization was LaVerne Masayesva Jeanne. This appears in her dissertation (MIT, chair: Ken Hale). Here's the quote:
‘The sole remaining "liquid", the rhotic written /r/, is produced in a variety of ways, ranging from an extremely light tap [r] to a retroflexed, i.e. apico-domal, fricative [ẓ], with the latter allophone predominating. This consonant is voiced except in syllable-final position where it is regularly a voiceless apico-domal fricative [ṣ].’ (p. 12)
You can download it: http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/16325
She's alive but retired: http://www.unr.edu/anthropology/people/faculty/laverne-masayesva-jeanne
The note about Mishongnovi /r/ being weakly fricative is from ‘Moencopi variations from Whorf's Second Mesa Hopi’ by Clyde Kluckhohn & Kenneth MacLeish in IJAL, 21, pp. 150–156, (1955).
Most of the phonological content in the wiki is, of course, from Whorf's grammatical sketch in that 1940s handbook.
Sorry to hear about folks doubting your hearing. Hope this info helps you.
ishwar  (speak) 15:32, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello, Many thanks for your response, and the pointer to Jeanne's thesis. I've tried to get in touch with her before, but as you note, she retired about 4 years ago. I'll try again. I first became aware of the pre-vocalic tap realizations of /r/ a few years ago, in Orayvi, when an Orayvi friend heard me say "Orayvi" with the usual apico-domal fricative-sibilant [ẓ], and he _corrected_ me to say it with a tap. I now know an Orayvi woman who also uses such taps. And I've heard the taps from other Orayvis whom I don't know personally. And I have a 1964 recording of an Orayvi woman ("Mrs. Monongye") who seems to pronounce the pre-vocal /r/ as a fricative or approximant that is, however, not sibilant. (The usual [ẓ] and [ṣ] allophones are sibilant, very roughly similar to the English s in measure and sh in ship.)

I'm investigating the thesis that tap, or at least non-sibilant, allophones of pre-vocal /r/ are common in Orayvi and perhaps other "Friendly" villages (Kiqötsmovi, Upper Munqapi). Lower Munqapi, Hotvela and Paaqavi, founded by "Hostiles" after the 1906 Orayvi Split, would (I conjecture) use the more common [ẓ] allophone before a vowel. Ideally, a survey should be done, but getting permission to do linguistic work on the Hopi Reservation has been difficult for decades. Suggesting that there are linguistic differences between the traditionally Friendly and Hostile villages may also be politically incorrect.

Historical orthographies may also provide clues. In 1859-60, two Mormon missionaries (Marion Shelton and Thales Haskell) lived 4 months in Orayvi, and Shelton wrote down almost 500 Hopi words in the Deseret Alphabet, a phonemic alphabet that the Mormons were then promoting as a reform orthography for English. I'm editing this vocabulary with Dirk Elzinga of Brigham Young University. The /r/ before a vowel (there are quite a few of them) he consistently transcribed using the Deseret Alphabet R-letter, so I assume that he heard it as something clearly rhotic. (He knew and even taught Spanish, so he would have heard an alveolar tap as an R.) But the coda /r/ (only three examples in the vocabulary) he consistently transcribed using the Deseret Alphabet S-letter. (The /s/ phoneme is usually, but not always, transcribed using the Deseret Alphabet sh-as-in-ship letter. There is a Deseret Alphabet s-as-in-measure letter, but he never uses it when writing Hopi words.) His orthographical conventions suggest that he heard pre-vocalic /r/s that were rhotic, but not sibilant, and coda /r/s that were sibilant. It's highly unlikely that he perceived them as belonging to the same phoneme. These transcriptions would be consistent with pronunciations of /r/ that I hear in Orayvi today.

In 1892 a Mennonite missionary named H.R. Voth arrived in Orayvi and started studying the language. The earliest Hopi book (1916) that I've found in the Mennonite orthography uses <r> for the pre-vocalic /r/ and, it seems, for the code /r/. These conventions are very similar to Marion Shelton's, and it seems unlikely that the Mennonites realized, in 1916, that they were dealing with one /r/ phoneme. By 1923, however, a subsequent Mennonite publication uses <r> for pre-vocalic /r/ but <rs> for coda /r/. So it looks like they finally realized that there was just one /r/ phoneme, but they retained the orthographical convention <rs> for the coda /r/ to reflect its sibilance.

But as I said, my ear, my scholarship and my political correctness are being questioned by a prominent reviewer, so I'm trying to be very careful. Your pointer to Jeanne's dissertation was very helpful.

Thanks again and best wishes, Krbeesley (talk) 17:34, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Lillooet/St'at'imc/St'at'imcets PRIMARYTOPIC/dab dispute at RM[edit]

Hi; I see you were one of the first people to edit the Lillooet title, which I have filed an RM under per WP:CSG#Places and a mandate to do so from CANTALK/WPCANADA....I won't say much more but here, read AjaxSmack's oppose vote and my responses which detail the history of the article/title and its supposedly competing PRIMARYTOPICS (the language and people articles). Sources are on my side, policy is too, and yet...... how I miss the early days of Wikipedia when Phaedriel and Luigizanasi and other people with broad minds and no guidelines strapped to their boots were making sense and cooperation....instead of knee-jerk opposition and completely uniformed and uncited claims...... I'm from the damn place, am something of a recognized expert on the history and geography of the area and all its peoples, and being treated anti-AGF by people who .... just don't know very much at all, and apparently don't want to either.

I don't know if you're among those that are hostile to me for TLDR or whatever, I'm doing my best to supply guidelines and sources...and keep my cool.....but I see you were the one who established the St'at'imc and St'at'imcets titles which were moved without discussion five years later; St'at'imc is back where it belongs after an exhaustive RM last year, I was too tired to go after Lillooet language to move it back to its correct title as my "opponent" has been vicious and obstructionist and I actually had a bout of nervous exhaustion and economic loss last year from dealing with his ongoing resistance at that RM and four others of the same kind. WP:CSG#Places is my mandate and there are dozens of parallel precedents/examples......but I'm being thrown loopy quantitative derisions concerning the town and more, despite all the googles lined up and policies cited.....as I've said elsewhere "when will the madness stop?". Gawd, I miss Phaedriel.......I don't know if you'll vote there, or even close the damn thing; at least I know you can read and won't throw TLDR at me....I'm tired of the animosity, the off-base resistance to obvious,citable PRIMARYTOPIC, and the reality is that the people article is differently titled, and the language article should be, and that they are NOT valid dabs re primarytopic as a result......

Kwami's attempt to shut down discussion has been repeated over many RMs; Comox, Saanich, Bella Bella, and Bella Coola are also in the same boat as still-open RMs though Sechelt/Shishalh and Chemainus/Stz'uminus and others are all closed despite the same sorts of objections. His call for a discussion of guidelines has been debunked by CambridgeBayWeather, who points out that all the guidelines mandating such moves already exist; the discussion at WP:NCETs talkpage is going nowhere and needs more input from people who actually discuss things, instead of ignore those they don't want at the party.....sorry to "rant", as you know I left Wikipedia after the 2011 Cdn election/Harper-govt articles/ads block-fiasco and when I came back several months later I discovered undiscussed and rampant changes to long-standing titles the "old consensus" within IPNA and other members about using native terminology had been upended by one-sided and ill-considered invocation of NCL, without even attempts to read and fix the articls affected; that guideline had been tailor-remade to fit the "new agenda"......and efforts by its authors to refute invocations of WP:NCET and WP:UNDAB and even WP:TITLE have been made to assert its primacy over non-language articles.....

Nnow, since I have been threatened with a long-term block for criticizing other editors (the concept of NPA has been, it seems, extended to criticism of actions and ideas, even though directly personal attacks against myself apparently are more than OK and go unremarked upon), I better shut up huh? In any case, your thoughts whether here or on the RM about PRIMARYTOPIC of "Lillooet" as the original person who moved Lillooet to a redirect to St'at'imc in 2005 are part of my discussion.....Skookum1 (talk) 17:13, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Found this old comment of yours from 2005[edit]

Been doing RMs to remove needless "people" dabs added by Kwami and other advocates for WP:NCL (and catching all kinds of heat for it, which you may have noticed it, though I've "won" 95% of these RMs). In one discussion somewhere Maunus said "we can't take Skookum1's word for it" - I think per the "old consensus" as I describe t he old set of standards our loose group of editors came to terms with back then; this quote is evidence of its existence:

"ok, but the Dilzhę́’é prefer to be called Dilzhę́’é, regardless of what non-Dilzhę́’é call them. I note that other articles such as Nuxálk (= Bella Coola) & Nuxálk language use the names preferred by the peoples rather than the names more well-known to outsiders. i was just going by this convention. peace"

The obstinacy about those names is frightening at times, and disturbing at others, and otherwise just a bore...but disruptive to getting correct titles back where they were before; Bella Coola just went through an RM, and Bella Bella another, closed "no consensus/not moved" despite ample evidence that the towns are the PRIMARYTOPIC (the Heiltsuk, who are the government of Bella Bella, call it that). The "old consensus" I've been meaning to draft up, but am up to my eyeballs in admin-alligators wanting to ban me; but would appreciate your input in such matters as someone "from the old consensus". Phaedriel and Luigizanasi are gone now, and others. I'm being treated as a DIVA for standing up for guidelines and our old consensus......by people who don't even read the guidelines they quote themselves, and who violate guidelines right and left in their attacks on me, or their spurious and persistent "oppose" votes. The article t hat is from Tonto Apache people now has an RM on it to revert it to Tonto Apache, by the way.Skookum1 (talk) 11:19, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Request for comment[edit]

Hello there, a proposal regarding pre-adminship review has been raised at Village pump by Anna Frodesiak. Your comments here is very much appreciated. Many thanks. Jim Carter through MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 06:47, 28 May 2014 (UTC)


Welcome back (I hope youre here to stay)[edit]

Great to see you being active on Native American language pages, I often look back through the page histories and think about the amazing amount of work you did "back in the day". There is still so much to do, and I hope you'll stick around and help doing it. For example right now Navajo language is up for a GA review and it needs a lot of work in my opinion. Anyway, thanks for your work past, present and future.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:59, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Probably not here to stay. I'm busy these days with more theoretical and experimental work in phonetics/phonology/speech perception.
Yeah, back in the day, I was just kind of annoyed at the lack and quality of Indian language information on websites. I though it was cool that I could put some things from published research up and hope that some folks would do the same. It was fun. I also wanted to get a better handle on some details, specific and general, about languages I didn't know about. I didn't make very far into South America, unfortunately.
If I ever get some free time, I'd like to read some of K. Pike's work on Mexican language tone systems and summarize it here. When I looked at them years ago, they appeared pretty impenetrable, beautifully complex, and not something I could figure out without a bit of effort. They have pretty much not informed the theoretical work on tonal systems. – ishwar  (speak) 22:18, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
That would definitely be a worthy effort, even though as you note the study of tonology of Mexican languages has advanced quite a bit since Pike, but mostly without building on Pike's work.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:21, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Global account[edit]

Hi Ish ishwar! As a Steward I'm involved in the upcoming unification of all accounts organized by the Wikimedia Foundation (see m:Single User Login finalisation announcement). By looking at your account, I realized that you don't have a global account yet. In order to secure your name, I recommend you to create such account on your own by submitting your password on Special:MergeAccount and unifying your local accounts. If you have any problems with doing that or further questions, please don't hesitate to ping me with {{ping|DerHexer}}. Cheers, —DerHexer (Talk) 19:53, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open![edit]

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:54, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Shogi strategy and tactics[edit]

Hi Ish ishwar. I saw that you've expanded Shogi strategy and tactics by adding more examples of different castles. Just for reference, there is a template Template:Shogi diagram that I created which can be used for shogi diagrams. I'm not sure how well it will work since you want to use both arabic letters and kanji numerals for the ranks, but the template might be able to be tweaked to do that if it's something absolutely needed.

Also, just wanted to let you know about Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Shogi. It's something I proposed a while ago, but have sort of put aside for the time being. I'm not sure if there will ever be enough interest generated for a stand-alone Wikiproject, but you never know. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:35, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

I had noticed that after I started with my table solution. Of course, it quickly dawned on me that it's not general enough since the kanji will need to be upside-downed to do anything besides just castles. (And, I dont know if that's even possible in html.) So, it's probably best to use your deal.
Yeah, I do like japanese numerals instead of letters. That's what Japanese books/websites use. And, all my apps, too. But, it doesn't matter really. English (and international?) uses the letter convention. So, maybe that's standard if there is a standard.
I probably can't commit to anything as far as projects. Just taking a break from real life work for the time being. – ishwar  (speak) 23:05, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
No worries about the project. We are after all volunteers. I was just letting you know about it for reference. I posted a bit more about the diagrams on the article's talk page. I think there might be a better way to add them to the article using columns. Personally, I prefer the kanji numerals as well. It might be possible to do both if needed, but either way works for me. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:45, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

2016 Wikimedia Foundation Executive Director Search Community Survey[edit]

The Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation has appointed a committee to lead the search for the foundation’s next Executive Director. One of our first tasks is to write the job description of the executive director position, and we are asking for input from the Wikimedia community. Please take a few minutes and complete this survey to help us better understand community and staff expectations for the Wikimedia Foundation Executive Director.

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Thank you, The Wikimedia Foundation Executive Director Search Steering Committee via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:49, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

OrphanReferenceFixer: Help on reversion[edit]

Hi there! I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. Recently, you reverted my fix to Castle (shogi).

If you did this because the references should be removed from the article, you have misunderstood the situation. Most likely, the article originally contained both <ref name="foo">...</ref> and one or more <ref name="foo"/> referring to it. Someone then removed the <ref name="foo">...</ref> but left the <ref name="foo"/>, which results in a big red error in the article. I replaced one of the remaining <ref name="foo"/> with a copy of the <ref name="foo">...</ref>; I did not re-insert the reference to where it was deleted, I just replaced one of the remaining instances. What you need to do to fix it is to make sure you remove all instances of the named reference so as to not leave any big red error.

If you reverted because I made an actual mistake, please be sure to also correct any reference errors in the page so I won't come back and make the same mistake again. Also, please post an error report at User talk:AnomieBOT so my operator can fix me! If the error is so urgent that I need to be stopped, also post a message at User:AnomieBOT/shutoff/OrphanReferenceFixer. Thanks! AnomieBOT 02:28, 2 June 2016 (UTC) If you do not wish to receive this message in the future, add {{bots|optout=AnomieBOT-OrphanReferenceFixer}} to your talk page.

Disambiguation link notification for August 10[edit]

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Extended confirmed protection[edit]

Padlock-blue.svg Hello, Ish ishwar. This message is intended to notify administrators of important changes to the protection policy.

Extended confirmed protection (also known as "30/500 protection") is a new level of page protection that only allows edits from accounts at least 30 days old and with 500 edits. The automatically assigned "extended confirmed" user right was created for this purpose. The protection level was created following this community discussion with the primary intention of enforcing various arbitration remedies that prohibited editors under the "30 days/500 edits" threshold to edit certain topic areas.

In July and August 2016, a request for comment established consensus for community use of the new protection level. Administrators are authorized to apply extended confirmed protection to combat any form of disruption (e.g. vandalism, sock puppetry, edit warring, etc.) on any topic, subject to the following conditions:

  • Extended confirmed protection may only be used in cases where semi-protection has proven ineffective. It should not be used as a first resort.
  • A bot will post a notification at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard of each use. MusikBot currently does this by updating a report, which is transcluded onto the noticeboard.
Please review the protection policy carefully before using this new level of protection on pages. Thank you.
This message was sent to the administrators' mass message list. To opt-out of future messages, please remove yourself from the list. 17:48, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia Asian Month![edit]

Hi there! Thanks for joining Wikipedia Asian Month. Here is some information about participating in the event:

  1. Please submit your articles via this tool. Click 'log in' at the top-right and OAuth will take care the rest. You can also change the interface language at the top-right.
  2. Once you submit an article, the tool will add a template to the article and mark it as needing review by an organizer. You can check your progress using the tool, which includes how many accepted articles you have.
  3. Participants who achieve 4 accepted articles will receive a Wikipedia Asian Month postcard. You will receive another special postcard if you achieve 15 accepted articles. The Wikipedian with the highest number of accepted articles on the English Wikipedia will be honored as a "Wikipedia Asian Ambassador", and will receive a signed certificate and additional postcard.
  4. If you have any problems accessing or using the tool, you can submit your articles at this page next to your username.
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  6. If you have any question, you can take a look at our Q&A or post on the WAM talk page.

Best Wishes,--AddisWang (talk) 16:07, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Please stop[edit]

You've edit warred and have now used full protection to aid your position. This isn't the conduct expected of an admin. —SpacemanSpiff 17:09, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Why? Protection is not aiding my position. As I stated, it's to encourage folks to discuss which they were not doing. – ishwar  (speak) 17:15, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
If you don't understand WP:INVOLVED then you shouldn't have any admin tools. Please stop edit warring and/or abusing your admin tools or you will be blocked and/or a desysop request filed. —SpacemanSpiff 17:17, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't see any abuse. Will you then – in your duties as an administrator – request that the involved parties discuss their position on a talk page? That is my sole intention. If you feel that a desysop request is warranted, then you should do so, of course. peace – ishwar  (speak) 17:22, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
I think you need to drop the Meitei stick quickly (see [1]). Are you aware of the sanctions in place on India/Pakistan articles? I'm posting a notice below just in case you're not. --regentspark (comment) 02:49, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
No, I wasn't aware as I usually don't edit in this area. But, what effectively does this mean? Is one allowed to edit India pages or not? Why exactly are you telling me this? Am I guilty of something?
Just making you aware that you need to be extra careful editing in this area. About the Meitei stick, you need to get consensus for your edits because of WP:BRD and because it appears that there are many editors reverting your preferred name for the language. I'm surprised I need to explain all this to an admin but this should be fairly obvious.--regentspark (comment) 14:48, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Ok. There are basically two editors (but mostly one) reverting my edits. I do admit to editwarring (although I don't believe I've violated any 3RR rule contrary to SpacemanSpiff's understanding). I was affected by what I perceive as Filpro's rather rude edit style. That's my fault. I generally don't keep up with the bureaucratic part of wikipedia. I primarily add substantial context to wikipedia that hasn't existed here before. So-called sanctions are new to me and frankly don't seem necessary. I also still fail to understand why you and SpacemanSpiff are singling me out. – ishwar  (speak) 15:59, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Since you're the one making the change, it's up to you to seek consensus. That's why you're the one getting all these messages. --regentspark (comment) 17:06, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
I see. So, it's a narrow focus on the India article. In contrast, i view it as the general area of all wikipedia reference to Meitei/Manipuri related things. In other words, i view wikipedia as more interconnected. Therefore, it's not 'up to [me]'. Rather it's up to both me and Filpro to seek consensus. And, if different names in different articles are used for the same referent, then there should be an explicit mention and justification for that state of affairs. (My implicit assumption: a one-to-one correspondence between name and referent is preferred.) Maybe my perspective is a minority one.
But, at any rate, I now understand why you admonish me and not Filpro. Presumably, SpacemanSpiff also has a similar focus on a subset of articles. – ishwar  (speak) 17:18, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't think you're seeing the problem. There is no narrow focus or broad focus. Rather, there is just how you go about making changes (and how you use your admin tools). Wikipedia functions better when there is discussion and consensus and it is incumbent on you to seek that consensus - whether it be on the India article or in the language page or elsewhere. Provide sources, make your case in a reasonable way, and other editors will evaluate your arguments. Edit war, and you'll end up blocked and not listened to. It's all fairly simple and completely independent of where and what you're actually doing with content. --regentspark (comment) 17:40, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Ok, I now no longer understand why you are singling me out. I see the problem. But, I don't see why you are not also explaining this to Filpro as they initiated the edit war in the first place. Is it because I have admin status and therefore deserve extra censure? (I'm not sure since you just mentioned that parenthetically.) Or, is the presumption that Filpro already knows these things and therefore doesn't need to be censured? – ishwar  (speak) 17:54, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Because it is your change that is being reverted. And I'm done with explaining all this so you're welcome to do whatever you want with my warning. --regentspark (comment) 18:02, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

And, Filpro's change was reverted as well starting from Meitei language. I'm sorry you are frustrated, but you are not explaining your selective attention to me. – ishwar  (speak) 18:20, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
As for the 'Meitei stick', well, there isn't a consensus on what Wikipedia's policy is. I'm trying to follow some aspects of Wikipedia policy while another editor is following a different policy. So, there needs to be some resolution coming from other folks. Feel free to comment at Talk:Meitei language. Both me & Filpro should probably refrain from editing Meitei-related topics. – ishwar  (speak) 03:41, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
While there may not be a consensus on the name to be used, your behavior here is what is classified as disruptive. You violated 3RR on India and then added full protection in violation of WP:INVOLVED and are continuing to edit war in other articles, including misusing WP:Rollback. THe sanctions exist to prevent such behavior and if you do continue this, you are likely to be topic banned from the area. —SpacemanSpiff 04:03, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Ok. And, the reason you aren't concerned with Filpro's edit warring is because their edits aren't disruptive? – ishwar  (speak) 04:14, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions alert[edit]

Commons-emblem-notice.svg This message contains important information about an administrative situation on Wikipedia. It does not imply any misconduct regarding your own contributions to date.

Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions. --regentspark (comment) 02:50, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Template:Shogidiagram[edit]

Hi Ish ishwar. I'm not very knowlegable on creating templates and I'm not sure what the basic difference is between Template:Shogi diagram and Template:Shogidiagram, but the names are almost identical which might make it confusing for anyone wanting to use them. It might also make it easy for unintentional mistakes to happen. It might be a good idea to change the name of one of them so that they are easier to distinguish by name. I have no preference as to which one's name is changed, but it could be some simply done like "Shogi diagram 1"/ "Shogi diagram 2" or something more specific to the difference(s) between the two.

Also, if you've copied some of the syntax from within Wikipedia or from another language Wikipedia, you probably should add some attribution to "original" version somewhere since you've basically created a completely new page with a new edit history. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:33, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Template:Shogidiagram calls Module:Shogi diagram just like the chess diagram. Basically, the Shogidiagram version uses text characters for the shogi pieces (instead of image files of characters like the Shogi diagram). There is also a technical difference in that Shogidiagram requires two piece in hand arguments in addition to a header & footer argument (unlike Shogi diagram which used the header & footer arguments for mentioning the pieces in hand). Otherwise, the template itself is mostly the same. I plan to customize it further by making some arguments optional, label switches, etc.
The basic idea to use text instead of image is to reduce page load time (see, e.g, the mammoth Castle (shogi)) & to render a sharper character at all text-sizes.
For the name, I propose that there be only one diagram template. So, once the pages are fixed so that the diagrams within fit the argument structure, then Shogidiagram can be moved to Shogi diagram (i.e. copied into it & Shogidiagram deleted). So, Shogidiagram is just a temp template for this transition period.
The module is inspired by the chess one, but the syntax is mine as I had to deal with different issues and a different structure. I mentioned that with my 'based on' language, but even that's probably not needed as the structure is probably a natural one based on how one writes the html. I just looked at the chess module because it's easier to learn the syntax via example (I never heard of Lua before) instead of from a reference book (for me anyway). However, the Shogidiagram template is definitely based the Shogi diagram template. In fact, I'd say that Shogidiagram is a working (in alpha) modification of Shogi diagram.
There's something funny about the code in that the arrow images show something like a 1 pixel whitespace between the left & right sides of the images and the border of the table cells. I haven't figured this out yet... (This doesn't show up at the top & bottom of the images, so I first need to confirm the images are truly square.) – ishwar  (speak) 01:01, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't really understood much of the technical details that go into creating templates; I basically copied the one I "created" from what was being used on Japanese Wikipedia and tweaked it as I thought needed. If this new version is an improvement, then I'm all for it. I just wanted to point out WP:CWW and the possible problems with the names.
I also noticed the white space in the arrows. I basically created them using MS Paint, saved them as png files and then uploaded them to Commons. I'm sure there's probably a much better way to do that as well so feel free to improve/tweak/re-create/delete as needed. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:09, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
The template from jawiki is clever. So, it was good to import it. Actually, if you hadnt have done that, i probably wouldnt have been motivated to look at the chess template or to learn Lua & the necessary html. (I didn't think that it was possible to rotate text via CSS.)
I think it's an improvement because it's faster to display text than pics. And, fonts are very clear when you increase their size unlike pics, which get blurry. Also, since the template is a wrapper for a Lua module, one can add optional formatting. For example, one could add a flag like orientation=upside that would flip the board making (a) white on the bottom, black on the top and (b) adjusting the board coordinate axes, and (c) putting 王 on the bottom & 玉 on top. Things like that.
The possibly negative points about using text include:
  • (i) The diagrams look different on different computers since displayed text appearance is always font-dependent. This is not bad in itself, but if the fonts differ in size and/or alignment, then the diagrams may look misaligned on some computers if the html table dimensions and CSS formatting is off. It's impossible to know without testing lots of different fonts.
  • (ii) The rotated text depends on web browser support for the transform: rotate bit, which is new. For example,
<div style="transform: rotate(180deg)">香</div> gives:
Although it seems that most modern browsers support this now, very older browsers may not.
  • (iii) Well, it's in Lua now. Although it's more customizable, it's now harder to maintain since not everyone knows Lua. I'll try to help as much as i can with this by documenting it. (Unlike the chess module which is completely undocumented and uncommented)
I dont think there's a better option for the arrows. So, although the pieces are text, the arrows remain as images. I dont know if there are suitable arrow and line character points in the Unicode tables. There are definitely arrows, but if we want to use the arrows as they are being used in the diagrams, then they need to connect up to edges of the html table cells to look 'nice'. And, even if there are suitable characters, they also need to be supported in actual fonts that would be on readers' computers. I think the MS Paint pics are fine.
It will take me a little while to adjust the diagram code in articles since i've made so many diagrams. But, once that's done and everything's behaving as expected, then i plan to use the template:shogi diagram name. The pic-based version can be transferred to something like template:shogi diagram image. And then, i go back the articles and replace shogidiagram with (the easier to read) shogi diagram.
I figured out the 1px spacing issue with the arrow pics. Apparently, wikipedia's default CSS gives table cells extra padding. So, you have to null that to 0 padding explicitly. – ishwar  (speak) 15:16, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
This actually didn't fix all 1px spacing issues. So, still a mystery.... – ishwar  (speak) 15:30, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Address Collection - 1st reminder[edit]

Hi there. At the moment we have not received your response on the address collection. Sorry for the inconvenience if you did submit the form before. If you still wish to receive the postcard from Wikipedia Asian Month, please submit your mailing address (not the email) via this google form. This form is only accessed by me and your username will not distribute to the local community to send postcards. All personal data will be destroyed immediately after postcards are sent. If you have problems of using the google form, you can use Email This User to send your address to my Email.

If you do not wish to share your personal information and do not want to receive the postcard, please let me know at my meta talk page so I will not keep sending reminders to you. Best, Addis Wang, sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:04, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Buoyant Rook[edit]

Are you going to write the page quoting reliable sources? If not I'll rewrite it as a redirect.Xx236 (talk) 10:04, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Bishop Head Pawn.Xx236 (talk) 10:59, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, eventually. It's just a stub after all. If you know the topic, then you can add some information, too. – ishwar  (speak) 18:26, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
No, I don't know the subject. No, they aren't stubs, they are unsourced substubs, your personal notes in main space. Xx236 (talk) 09:50, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Are you happy now with my 'personal notes in main space'? – ishwar  (speak) 17:09, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Saraiki dialect[edit]

Hi. You recently participated in the Requested move discussion for Saraiki dialect, which has now been closed. The close is under discussion at Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2017 January#Saraiki dialect, where you'll be welcome to comment. Thanks! – Uanfala (talk) 13:14, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't know what to say. The objection against Saraiki language is silly. I don't understand why Wikipedia doesn't seek out actual linguists to settle this rather than relying on ill-informed editors. – ishwar  (speak) 08:54, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
I also never understood the arbitrary time limits on these things. – ishwar  (speak) 09:02, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
Well, isn't that how wikipedia's decision making is supposed to work? If there's a dispute, it gets settled by "uninvolved" (i.e. ill-informed) editors. And I think the greater problem is not with the discussions, but with the article content itself. Edits to language-related articles are relatively more susceptible to the Dunning–Kruger effect – few amateurs would have the confidence to edit articles on say quantum chromodynamics, but with such an everyday matter as language, I guess it's easy for many people to feel like they know what's going on. I've taken most of the major Indian language articles off my watchlist – it was unbearable to see the mess that well-meaning editors make of them on a daily basis. – Uanfala (talk) 13:00, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I view it as a flaw of wikipedia. It's sort of like a democracy: it works better when the members are knowledgeable. Other encyclopedias invite experts to contribute giving you higher quality material.
The issue here is a few editors don't seem to realize that dialect isn't defined by mutual intelligibility to the exclusion of socio-political criteria as is apparent by the wikipedia article names for Spanish & Portuguese and Swedish & Norwegian and so on. I don't know where they got this idea from. As far as I know, all introductory linguistic textbooks mention mutual intelligibility as a possible definition while in the same breath mentioning the lack of consistency of the definition as used by laypeople. I guess there will be problems as long as this misconception is held.
The other issue is that other editors seem to want Saraiki to be associated with the term dialect merely because they don't wish speech to be elevated to the status of language and wish it to be denigrated with the connotations of dialect. Generally, linguists reject this desire for denigration. Now, maybe wikipedia wants to consider this point of view as something valid to consider in naming an article in a democratic fashion. But, it's actually against wikipedia naming policy to use disfavored ethnonyms (in alignment with the practice of linguists [and I guess anthropologists too]). The editors are ignoring this.
For me, there's simply no debate here. – ishwar  (speak) 15:32, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter - February 2017[edit]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (January 2017). This first issue is being sent out to all administrators, if you wish to keep receiving it please subscribe. Your feedback is welcomed.

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Green check.svg Guideline and policy news

Octicons-tools.svg Technical news

  • When performing some administrative actions the reason field briefly gave suggestions as text was typed. This change has since been reverted so that issues with the implementation can be addressed. (T34950)
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Draft:Karolina Stycznska[edit]

Hi Ish ishwar. Just wanted to let you know that I started Draft:Karolina Stycznska. Feel free to add content as you see fit. I'd expect there be more online about her in English now that's she's been officially promoted to 2 Kyu. There will also likely be quite a bit on her in Japanese and in Polish as well. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:38, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Hi. Nice! – ishwar  (speak) 18:25, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

The draft was moved to the main space by a WikiProject Japan editor. See WT:JAPAN#Draft:Karolina Stycznska for reference. I'm also working on Draft:Template:Infobox shogi professional so if you have any suggestions, etc. on how to make the template work best, please feel free to add them. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:14, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

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Shogi minor edits[edit]

Hi, just a friendly suggestion, but can you mark your minor (i.e. cosmetic) edits on the shogi article (or any article) as minor? Just so no one has to go through them. Thanks. OneWeirdDude (talk) 19:45, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

hi. Ok. I'm sorry to have made you go through minor things. So, what's your definition of minor? Or, should i just use my judgment? I've used the minor marking in the past but at some point decided it was too subjective to be worth the time and the potential for mislabeling.
(Also, it's a different topic & unimportant, but my that that > that they was really a typo. I should know since i wrote it. I meant to type they. Amusingly, that that turned out to make sense. More importantly, i'm still not satisfied with the clarity of that section with either sentence....) – ishwar  (speak) 22:10, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
I saw that there's actually a what's-not-a-minor-edit section now at Help:Minor edit. So, it seems to be a lot less arbitrary than it used to be years ago. – ishwar  (speak) 15:07, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

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Shogi Major Titles[edit]

Hi Ish ishwar. I haven't been doing very much work on shogi lately, but just wanted to let you know that your continued efforts are much appreciated. Anyway, just in case you haven't heard yet, there are going to be 8 major titles from June 2017. The Eiou-sen has been upgraded to major titles status now that the man vs. machine Denou-sen matches are finished. The official announcement can be found here. I haven't checked yet, but there's probably an article or two about this in the Japanese media as well. Mainichi and Asahi seem to provide fairly decent coverage of shogi, so perhaps they willmention it. I don't think we'll find anything about this in English other than some forums or noticeboards, unless the JSA or a Japanese paper decides to publish a translated version.

Also, I've been sitting on a bit of info related to opening trends in pro games from the April 16 Shogi Focus. Katsumata 6-dan presented some of his research regarding changes he seen ranging rook and static rook opening selection since the 1980s. It was kinda interesting, but it may be too OR-ish for Wikipedia. I'll try to post it on Talk:Shogi opening sometime this week. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:18, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

My shogi-playing friends let me know that. I added a redlink to the shogi title template, but no more than that. I guess i'll just continue contributing to shogi theory gradually rather than dealing with tournament info.
Maybe we'll get an english article. Seems like that Fujii kid is making shogi newsworthy for the publishers.
I think i skimmed through that Shogi Focus show that you mention (from YouTube). I have to look at it more carefully. You mean Katsumata's research is too 'original'? If so, why? None of the shogi literature (books) actually seem very scholarly to me (coming from academia). And, i dont see anything like peer review for them. So, whatever a professional says seems to be the gold standard no matter how unsatisfying as that may be. Well, that's my impression anyway, i may be wrong. For what it's worth, the British Shogi magazine started to publish game statistics on opening popular in the 1980s. So, it can be compared to Katsumata. But, i guess all the Shogi info is originating from the Japanese magazine, so old copies of that would be the best source? Sometimes books say things about changes in relative popularity of opening strategies, but they never present any actual data on it. I wonder if sometimes it is based only on personal impressions, which (as we know) can be wrong. Sometimes we can confirm with the data in Kyokumenpedia, but Kyokumenpedia may not have all the data anyway. Anyway, i like this stuff. I'm very curious about openings/strategies that are no longer used. (I found one that i mentioned here: Central Rook#vs Side Pawn Capture variation) – ishwar  (speak) 19:20, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply.
  1. It might be possible to create a stub for the Eiou page since there it was covered by the Sankei Shimbun, Nikkan Sports and Mainichi Shimbun here, here and here respectively. It's the first new major title in 34 years, so that could also be a hook for a DYK nomination.
  2. Sota Fujii gets lots of media covered mainly because he's still a junior high school student and because he keeps winning, inlcuding beating people like Habu. I haven't been able to find much on him in English, but there's quite a bit in the Japanese press. He's also covered on mainstream news programs and talk shows. One interesting thing that I saw was that the JSA prominently announced the result of his NHK Cup game against Shota Chida [2] a month before the game was shown on TV [3], which is something I've never seen them do before because it's kind of a spolier. NHK, for reference, only posts the official game results after the game has been broadcast.
  3. About my OR comment, I have no problem considering Katsumata as shogi expert and no reason to doubt his findings. He's a data cruncher and his widely recognized as such by shogi persons. My comment was more about what others might think since shogi is not something typically well covered in English and Katsumata may be a bit of an unknown quanity. He did describe his findings as "dokutoku", but I don't think that means they cannot be trusted. Anyway, he used pie graphs to discuss some basic trends in three separate years for ranging rook and static rook openings. I thought those pie graphs could be converted to a simple Wikitable with an some sentences or two about Katsumata and the things he found. Citing the specific Shogi Focus can be done using {{Cite Episode}}.
Finally, I didn't mention this in my previous post, but the JSA has also been involved in a Shogi Internet Channel on Abema TV since Janaury. They've been using it quite a bit for official games and other shogi-related programs; I've even seen TV commercials promoting it. This might be something that also could be created into a stub or at least added to the JSA article since it's has recieved some coverage in the mainstream press.[4] [5] -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:29, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, my friends told me about Abema TV, too. Theyre very up on the shogi news. However, last time we checked it wasnt available to view in the US. But, sure – seems worth mentioning to me. Makes the article very up-to-date compared with most of the english stuff on the JSA which is from the 1980s mostly.
I guess there's a jawiki Eiou article that may have useful notes. I thought it's interesting that this was elevated.
I have no idea what dokutoku means here. If the data is clear, then why say it all? Maybe it means some games were hard to classify in his limited set of categories, but he forced them into his categories anyway just to make a pie chart with less slices or to not stray from trad openings? If that's true, then other person doing the classification may reach a different graph – hence the comment? No way to know unless we see the data ourselves... – ishwar  (speak) 21:38, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
I believe he said "dokutoku", but I'll have to check again. He probably said whatever he said just to not appear to be boasting or arrogant; a lot of Japanese do similar things to soften the tone of what they are saying a bit and make themselves appear a little humble. He did not really discuss any of his data and probably did all the number crunching prior to the show and just summarized things in a general way to suit the type of audience who watches the NHK shogi programs. There were a couple of shots of him using his laptop and it looked like he was working off some kind of database, but I don't remember him discussing it. I just assume he used the results from official games for the years he analyzed.
My guess is that quite a lot of the people watching are casual players who might not be as interested in a hardcore technical analysis than they are in some general info and interesting factoids. The program used the be more of a instructional type of thing with more detailed analysis and weekly tsume shogi problems, and was actually called NHK将棋講座. They still devote part of the program to that kind of thing, but they also do more features and interviews in an attempt to reach a more diverse audience. Over the past few years, the JSA seems to have been trying to broaden the appeal of shogi beyond the traditional club player and the "Shogi Focus" program is one way they are trying to do that. The hosts used to be well-established older professionals, both men and women, but now they tend to be younger (and better looking) pros who are popular with fans for reasons not only related to their shogi ability and more mainstream show business types/idols who are currently very popular and who also happen to play shogi. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:05, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, i wondered about that too. My native speaker consultant tells me that dokutoku is usually used to talk about other people's stuff not one's own stuff. So, it seems weird. But, i haven't asked them to watch it in the context of the show.
I suspect that would you say about the simplification is probably true too. – ishwar  (speak) 20:23, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
He may have said something else besides "dokutoku". I think it would be fair to consider him a reliable source for something such as this. Probably he should be attributed and treated as a primary source, but still would sort be like citing a reputable news blog. Like many pros, he makes part of his living off publishing shogi books and he has authored ones such as this and this. Perhaps some of what he presented on NHK was stuff he worked out a while back for another project. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:04, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
I dont think a primary source characterization is right. This is mostly a concept in the field of history (or like literature studies, whose researchers seem to me to be like less rigorous historians). He's a secondary source if you want to characterize it in this way. He has to actually analyze the data to produce something new that is readable/interpretable. The primary sources would be the game records themselves (or the immediate reports of the social events surrounding the games if you are dealing with a social/cultural stuff).
I like those books a lot, they were partially translated into English, too. – ishwar  (speak) 02:08, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
I rewatched the episode only this time using headphones. The word he said was 独断 (dokudan) and he used to the day that he basically chosen to categorize the openings in his own particular way and not in reference to some standard way of categorizing them. Also, you're right about the primary source thing. -- Marchjuly (talk) 09:08, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

shogi minor edit[edit]

Hi, when forgetting to mark edits as minor, don't worry about it too much, although it helps if it's not common practice. If you mark as minor by mistake, you should make a dummy edit (e.g. add a comment that says "Delete this comment", in "comment" tags) and mark it as major. OneWeirdDude (talk) 19:01, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

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Draft:Template:Infobox shogi professional[edit]

Hi Ish ishwar. Was wondering if you have any suggestions as to how to improve Draft talk:Template:Infobox shogi professional. I'm thinking of tweaking some of the parameters, but any other ideas you might have can be added to the draft's talk page. Right now, I'm using the Habu article as a guide for men, the Styczyńska article as the guide for women, and the Oyama as the guide for deceased players since if I can get the template to work in those, then it should work in the rest no problem. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:02, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

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Good work on shogi stuff[edit]

There's no shogi barnstar yet, but you definitely would deserve multiple ones for all the time and effort you've made in improving shogi-related stuff on Wikipedia. Thanks for doing all of that. Face-smile.svg -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:15, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Sure. Thanks. I dont need any award though. Basically, i'm learning shogi (in part) by writing. Just a gift to the world. Hopefully, i'm not getting too much wrong. Contributing to wikipedia seems to be better than making some private website/blog that might disappear in 5–10 years as has happened to much of the English material of the past. Little by little, it starts to add up to something. I was surprised about the lack of nonJapanese material when i first started learning. Remedying this dearth of info (on American languages) was my initial motivation to join wikipedia so long ago, so it's the same feeling here. – ishwar  (speak) 01:24, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Oh, and it goes without saying, but it's good to say anyway: your expertise is very much appreciated as well! – ishwar  (speak) 01:28, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
FWIW, I'm not even close to being an expert on shogi and do really spend as much time on it as I used to. I probably enjoy Wikipedia more these days. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:30, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Dab pages[edit]

Please don't usurp primary topics like at Nishio. It's a city of 160,000 people and is the undisputed primary topic. —Xezbeth (talk) 05:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Nothing is being usurped. I guess i object to that characterization. I'm disambiguating the articles when the situation calls for it. If other concerned editors like yourself want to establish an article as primary by some arbitrary criteria, then that's fine. I don't object. However, it's not something that i find very interesting and so i leave it to others to do such things. I find the Wikipedia:Disambiguation guidelines rather vague and not well-defined. (Actually, in my opinion, it seems like it would save many hours of time (including time spent arguing) to completely dispense with primariness at all. Well, i won't try to convince anyone of this.) – ishwar  (speak) 09:43, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

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