User talk:Jerome Kohl

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Invitation to a virtual editathon on Women in Music[edit]

Women in Music
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  • 10 to 31 January 2016
  • Please join us in the worldwide virtual edit-a-thon hosted by Women in Red.

--Ipigott (talk) 16:20, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia 15 meetup in Seattle[edit]

Wikipedia 15 meetup in Seattle, January 16, 2016
In the Seattle area?

You are invited to celebrate Wikipedia's 15th anniversary at the
Wikipedia 15 meetup in Seattle on Saturday, January 16, 2016, 12:15pm to 5pm at the University of Washington Communications building, Room 126.

12:15 Potluck lunch
 1:00 Lightning talks and presentations

To unsubscribe from future messages from Wikipedia:Meetup/Seattle, please remove your name from this list. -MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 06:37, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
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Ainsi parla Zarathoustra[edit]

peace bell

Any help with this In memoriam, Ainsi parla Zarathoustra (Boulez), is welcome. I don't speak French, unfortunately, and even the German of the expert is at times Böhmische Dörfer for me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:16, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

It is new to me, as well. My French is fairly good, though not really fluent. I am not very surprised to find a previously unknown composition to surface at this particular time. The citations appear to be sound, but some investigation is certainly in order. Thanks for calling this to my attention.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 08:28, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
It was on the list of works "all the time". Do you have access to the JSTOR ref? I had no idea how connected he was to theater, and think that's of interest even for the lay readers. The scene pictured on top of my talk: I saw it in the Festspielhaus. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:30, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Aha! Well, that just goes to show how shallow my knowledge of Boulez's work is! Yes, I have access to JSTOR, and can check the reference. Boulez worked for a time in his youth as music director for a theater company in Paris. It was there that he gained his first experience conducting. The date of this composition is the only real surprise, since he gave up that job in the mid-1950s.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:33, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
And the source says that he and Barrault went different ways, but Barrault still asked him (surprise) and he worked (surprise). Pretty close in time, and possibly drama, to his Wagner project. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:56, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
An interesting juxtaposition. This will certainly make interesting reading. Thanks again.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:55, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
I was bold and started a bit on the music - please check, if what Zenck said in colourful German is recognizable in my limited English, and please improve! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:02, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for January 17[edit]

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Looking for Bernado Kuczer[edit]

Dear Mr. Kohl,

I orgnanize a music-festival in Bremen/Germany for experimental and electronic music called REM ( We are trying to get into contact with Bernado Kuczer. Do you have an idea if, where he lives and how to contact him? Thank you

Jan van Hasselt — Preceding unsigned comment added by JVHasselt (talkcontribs) 10:26, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Scope of the term "early music"[edit]

I don't have access to the New Grove from home – what does Haskell say in his article? What definition does he give? If he says either "pre-Classical" or "pre-Baroque", we can certainly change the definition according to his authority. (Certainly the cited website does not have sufficient authority for this purpose.) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Haskell's opening sentence reads: "A term once applied to music of the Baroque and earlier periods, but now commonly used to denote any music for which a historically appropriate style of performance must be reconstructed on the basis of surviving scores, treatises, instruments and other contemporary evidence." I think this addresses the issue admirably. Kennedy, I think, is not so much an "outrider" as he is (by the nature of his book) too brief to allow complete accuracy. One way or another, it is past time that this issue was resolved, so thank you for bringing it up. In addition, it should not require a reference in the lead paragraph, which is meant only to summarise the article's content. If the definition does not appear in the article itself (preferably with an adequate disussion of how the sense has changed over time), then it has no place in the lead.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:05, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Excellent, thank you! How would you phrase the lead, then?
As I hinted in my edit summary, I suspected that this might be a disagreement between practicing HIP/HAP (I love that acronym!) musicians and specialists in theory, as Kennedy's definition implies a clean three-way split: Early, Common Practice, Modern/Contemporary. Compare Template:History of Western art music. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:19, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Isn't the question of whether or not the Baroque is included no more than a matter of just temperament? (Ah, oui, monsieur, je must have my little joke, non?) With apologies in advance and best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 03:51, 9 February 2016 (UTC)


Dear Jerome

Sorry to bother you. I just wondered: are this and this, in your opinion, at a normal/average/whatever level of requests for references in music articles? It looked like a *lot* of tagging to me, on almost everything, but then what do I know? The editor may be absolutely right,but I just wasn't sure. I'd be lost grateful foray comments but please don't worry that I'm planning to start a big fight ... not my thing. Thanks and best wishes DBaK (talk) 08:05, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't think that the density of requests for sources in either case is out of line, though if it had been me I might have handled things differently. For example, the piccolo trumpet article has one entire section without any references at all, and it might have been more appropriate to put a banner at the head of that section, rather than flagging every paragraph. The pocket-trumpet article seems to be infested with those "my favourite player" entries, which are not appropriately collected together into a "players of" section (which could then be marked with a single banner, thereby significantly reducing the number of individual flags.)
I am of two minds about using both a "refimprove" tag at the top of the article and flagging individual claims. On the one hand, the top banner tends to get ignored, and without the accompanying specific flags, editors may fail to understand what actually needs sourcing. On the other hand, peppering an article with dozens of individual flags looks like malicious pattern-bombing. Wikipedia guidelines tell us to make a good-faith effort to find sources for dubious claims before sticking markers on them, but often I find myself wondering at what appears to be a ridiculous claim in an article whose subject is completely foreign to me, so that I have scarcely any idea where to start looking. In other cases, I may mark all the places in an article needing sources, simply so that I can find them again when I return five minutes later with the first batch of additions. It is a judgment call, to be sure, and opinions are going to vary.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:06, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
That's really brilliant and extremely helpful - thank you very much for taking the time. I really appreciate the sanity check! Best wishes DBaK (talk) 09:25, 9 February 2016 (UTC)


Hello, Jerome -- Do you agree with this edit to Zither? Corinne (talk) 23:43, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Essentially, yes, though I do not quite see the point of adding the German pronunciation. Having said that, i have always myself pronounced the word with a "soft" (unvoiced) TH, as in "thick", though i believe the British pronunciation is voiced (TH as in "then") as shown in that edit. It may be a US/UK thing, or maybe just the way I picked up a regional (midwest American) accent from my dad, whose voice I hear in my head whenever I see that word.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:36, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
I've always heard it pronounced with an unvoiced "th", also. Perhaps both English pronunciations should be given. Corinne (talk) 22:55, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Let's do little research first. It is easy enough to see what the OED has to say, for a start. It gives just one pronunciation, /ˈzɪθə/, which agrees with what you and I believe (it is always so comforting when your assumptions are confirmed by a reliable source, isn't it?). If there were different pronunciations in the US and the UK, the OED is where I would go first to confirm this.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:24, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
I think it's even comforting when I find out that someone else pronounces a word the way I do. I'm wondering whether the editor who made that edit assumed that the English pronunciation had to match (at least in the consonant) the German pronunciation. Corinne (talk) 00:35, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
The trouble is, it doesn't matter which English TH sound (voiced or unvoiced) is proposed. Neither one matches the German pronunciation. Both English sounds are notoriously alien to German speech patterns, hence the actor's "quick way" to faking a German accent, by substituting S, Z, F, D, or T sounds for TH.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:51, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
I don't know much German; a little, but not much. So German doesn't have a th-sound that resembles either one of the English th-sounds? How do they pronounce words with "th" in them? Corinne (talk) 03:53, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Ziss iss a verry difficult qvestion you sink to ahsk me! "How do zey pronounce vurds viss "th" in zem? (With apologies to Colonel Klink, Sergeant Schultz, and all the other German characters in Hogan's Heros).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:24, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Most Germans nowadays can manage the interdentals, I think, but the most common mispronunciation is indeed as an alveolar sibilant, true to the stereotype, though more usually as an unvoiced (or half-voiced) one, i. e., [s], compare this ad, and see Standard German phonology#Loanwords from English. Th-fronting is uncommon as opposed to alveolarisation. It's easy to mishear "Smith" as "Smiff" if you're unfamiliar with the sound (I did that in my childhood), but as Germans have generally been made aware at school or elsewhere that the sound is similar to [s]/[z], not [f]/[v], they will try to produce a dental sound, not a labial one, so if they can't manage a real interdental, they will end up with something closer to [s].
I don't see a problem with noting both English/Anglicised and German pronunciation in the lede – I don't think it overburdens it. It's extremely common on Wikipedia to have the German pronunciation noted; much more frequently even, only the original German pronunciation is given and no Anglicised one, even though it would be helpful to know that one too.
For example, puns involving Bach I've encountered imply that a significant number of people pronounce the name as [bæk], and [bɑːk], I think, is common too, but the note at Johann Sebastian Bach only gives [bɑːx] (although at least the [bɑːk] variant can be mechanically derived from that). Wikipedia is unnecessarily dismissive of Anglicised pronounciations, regardless of how common they are in the real world, which I find regrettable. There should be place for both original and assimilated pronunciations. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:10, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Thank you, Florian Blaschke, for the interesting information and links. On your last point, I agree with you, but I'm surprised to hear that WP would not follow the advice of an expert on linguistics such as yourself. Anglicization of foreign words is one step on the way to full adoption of the word into the language, which goes on all the time in all but the most isolated languages, so why would there be an objection to including the Anglicized version of a foreign word or name? With "Bach", English speakers have a difficult time pronouncing the [x] sound to begin with, and a final [x] sound is even more difficult, so what's wrong with accepting that and giving [bɑːk] as an alternate pronunciation? Corinne (talk) 18:16, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
I am under the impression that this is a Wikipedia-wide principle, to simplify IPA transcriptions (for the same reason, we give the pronunciation of a word such as border as pan-dialectal /ˈbɔrdər/, which can be easily converted into the reader's dialect – e. g., [ˈbɔːdə] or [ˈbɔ(˞)ːdɚ] etc. – by the reader). Help:IPA for English has a footnote mentioning the customary replacement of [x] with [k] and sometimes [h], but perhaps it would be better to mention this in the dialect variation section. This reminds me that the transcription given in Zither does not conform to our guidelines. Changed. Personally, I would also write /ˈtsɪtər/ for German, for the sake of dialect/accent-neutrality. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:33, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
As far as giving the Anglicized pronunciation is concerned, the word "zither" is fully assimilated, so it would be very strange to give only the German pronunciation.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:32, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Am I correct in reading the English pronunciation of "zither" (at the beginning of the article) as having a voiced "th", as in whether? Florian, both Jerome and I, who grew up in different parts of the U.S., have always heard it pronounced with an unvoiced "th". Are you saying that pronunciation is absolutely wrong? If it is not wrong, then can it be included as another English pronunciation? Corinne (talk) 21:09, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Well, being trained in the solidly empiricist and descriptive "West Coast" tradition of typological and historical linguistics, I would not characterise the pronunciation [ˈzɪθər] as "absolutely wrong" and indeed see no reason at all to do so. If anything, it seems to be rare and non-standard, as dictionaries (apart from the OED) do not seem to list it. (I've only looked around the web a bit, as I can't find my old Cassell right now.) The pronunciation with a voiced interdental fricative is also more obvious in view of eye rhymes, which are all pronounced voiced too. So your variant strikes me as odd, surprising or at least counterintuitive. In fact, there seems to be no other word rhyming with your pronunciation, and words ending in /-θər/ are distinctly rare (I can only find Arthur, author, and derivations in -er like norther, birther and truther). So, there is no real precedent or parallel, which is the only halfway objective argument I can field against it, but it is noteworthy. I suspect there is a different analogy though, with Greek words including -th- where it is, I think, always pronounced as /θ/, as well as the derivations in -er I mentioned. This case is a bit puzzling to me; perhaps it is a US pronunciation ignored by prescriptive linguists. If you ask me, this kind of question is cut out for WP:RD/L. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:42, 15 February 2016 (UTC)


On the topic of Wikipedia's erratic at best coverage of assimilated pronunciations, even Schoenberg does not get one. I assume his name is commonly pronounced as /ˈʃeɪnbɜrɡ/ or perhaps /ˈʃɜrnbɜrɡ/? The Anglicised pronunciation is not always predictable; more reason to include it. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:57, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Jerome would know better than I how Schoenberg's last name is pronounced. Regarding the voiced or unvoiced "th" in "zither", I think it is rather difficult to keep the voiced quality going from the voiced "z" to a voiced "th", since there is no intervening consonant sound, more difficult even than saying "wither". There is something particular about the "z". Corinne (talk) 22:07, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Interesting, I did not consider this. Yes, I agree that such a sequence of voiced coronal fricatives in different places of articulation is rife for dissimilation. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:18, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Florian I wasn't thinking of the changes needed to be made by the front of the tongue (which I gather from the article on Coronal consonants is what is meant). I was thinking of the changes needed to be made at the back of the throat while making those changes. Try saying "zither" with a really voiced "z" and a voiced "th", and compare that to the relative ease of saying "wither", "whether", or "feather". Corinne (talk) 00:03, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
No, I got it. It is a veritable tongue-twister. Probably because [z] and [ð] are so close, because [ˈvɪðər] or [ˈzɪvər] are easy. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:38, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Vasily Andreyev[edit]

I was wondering if you could find some balalaika music to add to either the balalaika article or the Vasily Andreyev article. I mean, I guess I could search for some, but I wouldn't know how to add it. Corinne (talk) 01:39, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Do you know, I have never added a soundfile to Wikipedia, so I wouldn't know how to do it, either. Nor do I know a thing about balalaika music, so I wouldn't even know where to start looking for recordings. I'm afraid you will have to seek help elsewhere.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:09, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Oh. I thought you knew almost everything about music! ;) Corinne (talk) 02:37, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Dear, oh dear! Feet of clay in this case!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:43, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) here. Audio (and video) files are added in a similar format as images. Wikipedia uses 3 media file formats that are royalty free including .flac, .wav, and .oog. Here is a sample of a template to add a media file:
{{listen |filename=Accordian chords-01.ogg|title=Accordion chords|description=Chords being played on an accordion}}
Replace the italic portions with actual data.
{{listen}} is the name of the template (click on the link to the left to see other template examples)
filename= is the name of the media file
title= is the title you choose to give the piece or work (optional)
description= describes the piece or work (optional)
If you click on the listen template you will see you can also create a nested listen module within infoboxes to create an embedded media experience.
The sample I gave above renders like this:
Cheers! PS: If you add the parameter |help=no, the media help link sentence goes away. Try putting an audio file on your Talk page or in your sandbox as an experiment. {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 07:13, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Forgot to page Corinne. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 07:17, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, that looks very straightforward. Much obliged. What I meant to say, however, is that I have never uploaded a soundfile, not to Wikipedia, but to Wikimedia Commons. I imagine that it is done using the same or a similar wizard as the one used for images.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi Jerome Kohl. Yes. Same exact procedure. Same exact wizard if you go the wizard route. Be careful with licensing. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 07:37, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi Jerome Kohl and Corinne. Just for fun I added a short audio snippet to the infobox of Balalaika. Not very pretty but it was fun. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 08:47, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

DYK: Joseph Yasser[edit]

I invite you to visit Template:Did you know nominations/Joseph Yasser. Hyacinth (talk) 01:32, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Usually the case[edit]

You wrote at Sextuple meter:

"While this is usually the case, a citation should nevertheless be supplied".

What is sometimes the case?? Georgia guy (talk) 01:34, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

In slow sextuple meter, there may be no secondary accent (just as the beats in quintuple meter are not always to be grouped as 3 + 2 or 2 + 3). I have just amended the quintuple-meter article's lede to reflect this fact, already discussed in the body of the article.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:37, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

How is it possible??[edit]

Do you really think it's possible to have 4 or more notes of identical duration where the first gets primary stress and none of the later ones get secondary stress?? How?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:29, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes. Speed is the key. I was just listening to Villa-Lobos's Chôros No. 12, which has a rapid septuple ostinato near the beginning. It is impossible to say whether it is 3 + 4 or 4 + 3; in fact, it is seven equal beats. Consequently, whichever way you try to hear a "group of 4", it refuses to subdivide.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:44, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Precious anniversary[edit]

Four years ago ...
Cornflower blue Yogo sapphire.jpg
knowledge and modesty
... you were recipient
no. 40 of Precious,
a prize of QAI!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:33, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Peter Maxwell Davies, may he rest in peace. I liked the article much better with the infobox, and wonder why you'd want another time-sink of a discussion. I'll pass that one, just mourn. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:37, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

ps: when I read this I feel understood, quote: "it's bureaucratic and a bloody waste of time to start a talk page discussion before adding any infobox anywhere on Wikipedia". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:03, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

I can agree with Voceditenore's sentiment, but I found it amusing that at almost the same time the infobox was added, there was a call for expansion of the lede, which already had all of the data in the infobox. You responded quickly to that call, and bless you for doing so. I may yet suggest that the infobox can stay, as long as the redundant information contained in it is deleted from the lede.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:10, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to return the infobox and discuss its flaws and merits. Much easier to discuss something you see than something you have to look up in the article history. - I don't quite understand what you mean by redundant. An infobox is redundant by definition: key facts from the article. To have birth and death nicely together is an advantage (I think), even if the same information appears in the lead. Compare Beethoven, - an infobox installed after talk page consensus. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:38, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
I don't follow your reasoning, Gerda. Aren't birth and death dates together (even closer together) in the lede? FWIW, I dislike the Beethoven infobox, for the usual reasons, but I am not going to try to fight consensus.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:48, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
Please excuse my sloppiness, to speak - on the day of death of another great musician - of just "birth and death", short for not only the dates, but data: the date of birth in a templated form which works in other languages as well, useful for comparisons and calculations, the place of birth, the date of death (...), the calculated age, the place of death. You may need none of this, but others do. Why not give the lead to you, the infobox to the others? You can even opt out to see the infobox if it annoys you, ask Dr. Blofeld or RexxS. - Too many deaths these days, - Harnoncourt was a distant relative.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:09, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

I think I disabled the hide infobox feature because on some it didn't work and made it worse, plus in some articles an infobox is actually useful. I think common sense applies to useage, not a mandatory "every article must have an infobox for uniformity".♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:16, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

My condolences, Gerda. I was not even aware that Harnoncourt had died, until you drew this to my attention. I did know of Davies, Boulez, and John Eaton, all within a very short space of time. It seems like the Grim Reaper has been very busy of late. Thanks to Dr.Blofeld for the update on hiding infoboxes. I agree (as I believe Gerda can testify) that in some cases infoboxes are useful. The problem as I see it is not so much whether I have to look at the things, as how much harm they may do to the general readership. Their "usefulness" may be compared to the Monty Python send-up of oversimplified children's programming: "How to play the flute: You blow in one end, and move your fingers up and down the outside. Next, how to cure all the world's known diseases ..."—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:55, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for the condolences: Harnoncourt was another great musician we will miss. (When I said distant, I meant distant, - I watched him conduct opera (L'Orfeo and Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria) but didn't meet him in person, only his brothers.) - How could you miss that Harnoncourt died when I linked to it in my entry today, from "just mourn" in this thread? - I don't know to whom you speak about "How to...", - probably not me because I said just above that you may need none of this, but possibly others. - If you tell me what in a specific infobox is harmful and why, I will be the first to remove that part. - You seem to have missed the (long, long) discussion on WT:COMPOSERS where Harnoncourt's death was also mentioned. - Late here, please excuse seemingly unrelated bits ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:20, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
I did not miss your entry, linked from this thread. That is in fact how I first learned of Harnoncourt's death (and I of course agree that he was a great musician, who will be sorely missed). His biographical article has not been on my watchlist, and I did not see the discussion on WT:COMPOSERS, which also is not on my watchlist.
As one example of the specific infobox of which we are speaking, you may have missed the flap about five years ago about whether or not it is correct to say the Peter Maxwell Davies was born in Salford, Greater Manchester, considering that he was born in 1934 but Greater Manchester did not exist before 1 April 1974; then the issue of whether Salford is in England or the United Kingdom, etc. All of this is trivia, and has nothing to do with the man or his music, so why open up such a contentious, but pointless issue?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:33, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
Waking up to this, rubbing eyes: trivia, yes, past discussions of trivia. The present version has it simple and satisfactory, no? "...wovon man nicht reden kann, darüber muss man schweigen." ("... what we cannot talk about we must pass over in silence", Ludwig Wittgenstein. An infobox is not to capture a personality, - only "key facts". My first article was about a composer who also performs. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:50, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Sorry to say but I'm fully with Jerome on this one, the infobox in Davies is a perfect example of Wp:Disinfobox and adds absolutely nothing of value to the reader.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:33, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
@Dr. Blofeld: Your input on Talk:Peter Maxwell Davies would be greatly appreciated. We are in need of more voices in an attempt to establish some form of consensus there.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
I would but I don't want it to look like I'm pettily retaliating for Gerda's infobox support at Talk:Frank Sinatra. I otherwise approve of Gerda but strongly disagree with her that every article should have an infobox, regardless of quality of content. I'm of the opinion that a redundant infobox which either repeats what is in the lede or contains trivia cheapens articles and makes us look less professional, especially when it comes to printing out pages. A nice photograph in biographies tends to emulate that of the traditional encyclopedia. I'm sorry you've had to deal with this, I know what it's like to have people turning up trying to force them on articles you've written! I'm of the opinion that infoboxes should be used largely for articles with a lot of data which is best put into a box than prose. Things like aircraft/vehicles/buildings/settlements and sportspeople. In arts biographies they tend to be largely redundant and end up cheapening the article IMO.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:02, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
This is a pity, since there have been only two editors (including myself) who have shown the slightest interest in this allegedly contentious subject on the Maxwell Davies Talk page. Without further input, it will be impossible to declare anything but a stalemate, which I suppose means a return to the status quo of no infobox, but with a declaration of "no consensus", leaving the whole tiresome business open to future wrangling. I thought the Composers' WikiProject included a lot of passionate opinions (on both sides), but there seems to be a resounding expression of apathy in this case.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:16, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

I for one refrained from commenting at Talk:Peter Maxwell Davies through lack of desire to get drawn into yet more tedious infobox discussions. I did note, however, that the infobox that was added, then removed, then added again, contained one assertion that was simply wrong – it stated that Max died on Hoy. This was only later corrected to Sanday by an anon IP editor. My guess is that the editor who added the infobox saw the space for "place of death" and, having read that he died at home, vaguely remembered that he had once lived on Hoy and added that. If he had taken the trouble to read the article he would have known that Max moved to Sanday a good many years ago, but I guess infoboxes are about making an article look pretty rather than supplying verified information. --Deskford (talk) 22:45, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Ouch! I take it that you are an unqualified enthusiast where infoboxes are concerned, then ;-) While I can perfectly understand your reluctance to get involved in yet another tedious infobox discussion, if this is representative of Project members' attitude, then the position statement has lost any meaningful support and should be withdrawn forthwith, in order to let the Infobox Brigade roll on, unopposed.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:29, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
" I guess infoboxes are about making an article look pretty". See, I see it as just the opposite of this, I see a nice clean photograph without a big ungainly box as making the article look prettier!♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:32, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Dr B, I'm not going to disagree with you there. Perhaps I should have put quotes round "pretty". JK, I suspect I'm not the only project member who has been bullied into submission by the sheer tedium of the repetitive arguments. Maybe the infobox crusaders have a higher boredom threshold. That said, I have managed to stay awake long enough to re-read some past discussions about infoboxes, and I have various thoughts that I may post somewhere if I can work out the most appropriate place. Meanwhile, in the specific case of Peter Maxwell Davies it seems pretty clear to me that the box was added in good faith, and removed in equally good faith, both within the spirit of WP:BRD. When a third editor re-added the box without talk page consensus that amounted to disruptive editing. --Deskford (talk) 20:36, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Great minds do run in the same channels. However, since I was editor no. 2 in the above scenario, it did not seem appropriate for me to object to editor no. 3's action. If an editor no. 4 should happen along and notice the injustice, however . . .—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
My not so great mind sees it differently: why revert any good faith edit that is no vandalism? I could imagine better ways of interacting as adults, for example reach a consensus in a discussion without a revert. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:56, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Correct me if I am wrong, but if I correctly understand @Deskford: the WP:BRD guideline specifies that discussion is to ensue directly after a reverting of a bold edit, and in the meantime the status quo from before the bold edit should be left in place.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:05, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
You are right as always, but it's a guideline (no more, not binding, no rule or law which we have to follow). We could simply think that the addition of an indobox is just an edit, nothing bold, and we could discuss its flaws and merits, which - I think - we did. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:50, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
ps: remember In nomine? I was reminded, writing the beginning of the works list ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:53, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
I always try to imagine how I would see things if the shoe were on the other foot. In the present case, consider that it had been an infobox removed in good faith by an editor, with that edit reverted by a second editor. Would it then be the correct procedure for a third editor to once again remove the infobox, without first waiting for discussion on the talk page? I think you already see my point, but perhaps it helps to spell things out in this way.
As for the In nomine example, I can only say that some editors have memories like elephants! I do have two independent sources for transcriptions of the Sarum-rite chant, but so far have been unable to find an edition of the original, from which to make my own transcription. I have been reluctant to use either of those two secondary sources because of uncertainty about copyvio. Perhaps not actually a problem, though taking both into account (one shows the text underlay and ligatures, the other does not) might involve unacceptable synthesis. No excuse to bury my head in the sand, but it is always easier to do nothing!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:31, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
English is a difficult language. I dream of a time when there is no removal. If an edit was made in good faith, of sourced content, in a format that comparable articles have: why would you remove, instead of discussing flaws and merits. - My memory is usually bad, but I have good memories of In Freundschaft, and the friendship of William Waterhouse and Karlheinz Stockhausen. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:07, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for adding the concertos to List of compositions by Peter Maxwell Davies! Could you add a bit to the general remarks? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:58, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
I had not considered that, but I will, now that you ask. I cannot recall having seen very many lists of this nature that include a proper introduction, but that certainly does not mean there should not be any.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:57, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
There is only one other list of that nature so far, Carl Nielsen works, - Reger is in a sandbox, Busoni is a dream that may not come true for lack of time, at least not until his birthday (the lists we have for him are just too much), - thank you for your offer! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

The Beautiful Soup[edit]

This is fair enough, but when you reverted my edit (twice) you broke the link to the article and you did nothing about solving that. I've now done sorted it, but a bit of consideration over and above the pedantry would make Wikipedia work a bit better for everybody. Trey Maturin (talk) 19:39, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not notice the link was broken. Like most of us, I tend to see what I am focussing on, and not the broader picture. I will try to remember this lesson next time. Thanks for understanding.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:45, 7 March 2016 (UTC)


Thanks! ... I must have been asleep on the job as usual. Sorry. DBaK (talk) 23:16, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Not at all. Somehow that bit of vandalism slipped past my radar, as well. It was only when I was checking your restoration that I noticed it, entirely by chance.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:18, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! And of course it may yet turn out that Haley Brady is indeed the best horn player ever. I shall watch with care for the emergence of a reliable source on this. DBaK (talk) 23:23, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

List of compositions by Peter Maxwell Davies has been nominated for Did You Know[edit]

Do you think you could add a bit to the introduction? Will appear 16 April, with image. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:33, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
ps: we now have Ferruccio Busoni and Max Reger, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:35, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
I will see if I can think of anything. I did already make one small addition, but at the time the introduction otherwise seemed sufficient.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:30, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Ways to improve Chôros No. 13[edit]

Hi, I'm Kudpung. Jerome Kohl, thanks for creating Chôros No. 13!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. Please add in-line citations

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:49, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Dear Kudpung: The article already has six inline citations, which I think is fairly good for a piece of music which has never been performed and whose score has been lost. I suggest you read the article Parenthetical referencing, which will explain how this fairly common format works.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:54, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Invitation: Poll on adding two navboxes to a recent GA article[edit]

Hi. I trust you are well :). May I prevail upon your good nature and extend an invitation for you to visit a poll and vote here . Of course please feel free to ignore my request if time is too short (and I'll just go away Face-smile.svg). This vote is for a small issue—the insertion of two navboxes into Michael Laucke, a recent GA article. We thought it would be good policy to go through the democratic process of voting.

Thanks you so much in advance for your kind consideration and for your wonderful contributions to Wikipedia. With utmost respect and kind regards, Natalie Natalie.Desautels (talk) 07:20, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

L'Histoire du soldat[edit]

Dear Jerome, I've just noticed that (as has also been remarked on the talk page) that our article on L'Histoire du soldat says nothing at all about the music except for "rife with changing time signatures". Maybe you or another kind soul could add a little bit more to mitigate this regrettable gap in the article. Thanks for your attention! --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:25, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Oh, that is a serious defect! (I suppose, to be scrupulously accurate, the article does offer the information that the music is played by seven instruments, but that is not really adequate, is it?) As it happens, I am at the moment working on the article Harpsichord Concerto (Falla), which is not entirely unrelated to L'Histoire. I will see what I can do. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:38, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Henry VIII[edit]

If you don't mind, I've reverted the recently introduced edits about Sir Thomas Wyatt and Henry VIII. I appreciate you were after references but as things stood, the two statements were deeply contradictory with one saying that Wyatt introduced the Italian style of composition and the other saying that it wasn't introduced until after Henry's death (and therefore some years after Wyatt's death). Until such time as meaningful references link Wyatt to the Romanesca (which, I have no doubt, do not exist), I think it's best to stick with the facts we have. Hope that's OK. David T Tokyo (talk) 10:34, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

I shall have to look at your edit to confirm my suspicion, but it sounds like you may have thrown the baby out with the bath. There was a reliable source verifying that the Italian musical style (of the Romanesco/Passamezzo antico) was unknown in England in Henry's lifetime. In fact, the evidence indicates it does not appear even in Italy until the 1550s. On the other hand, all of the sources offered (by an editor who reverted my removal of the claim that Thomas Wyatt certainly brought the Romanesca to from Italy England twenty years before the Italians themselves knew about it) refer solely, if at all, to Wyatt's bringing the poetic form of the Petrarcan sonnet to England, and that he and Henry VIII were close. I have no problem myself with this claim, but it has no bearing at all on the subject, since the various words to Greensleeves are none of them in the form of a Petrarcan sonnet, nor can they be because of the shape of the music. There is a potential confusion here between the words and the music. Could Henry have written one or another of the lyrics now associated with the tune of Greensleeves? Yes, it is possible. Is there any evidence for this? No, none at all. Even the inference of Wyatt's influence on Henry's literary style evaporates when all that can be verified is that he brought the Petrarcan sonnet to England. Could Henry have written the tune of Greensleeves? The evidence here is against this hypothesis. What is more, the tune itself is known as an instrumental from before the earliest surviving words. There probably were words associated with the tune before those earliest surviving examples, but we have no clue what they might have been. This is part of the mystery of the meaning of the title. The words that we know may have been crafted as an explanation for the intriguing title of the melody.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:04, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
Update: My fears have proved groundless. The baby remains unharmed, the bathwater discarded safely. Thank you.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:14, 25 April 2016 (UTC)


As always, for your care in respect of music and dance articles.Redheylin (talk) 02:13, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

It is very kind of you to say so. I was afraid we might have been having a difference of opinion. I hope it is clear that my edits were meant only to maintain conformity of citation formats. Your content edits have been much appreciated.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:11, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Michael Laucke[edit]

Hello, Jerome -- I don't know if you devote any time to reviewing articles being considered for FA, but if you do, and have time, perhaps you could comment at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Michael Laucke/archive1. A lot of work has gone into this article by many editors, particularly Natalie.Desautels and Checkingfax. See reviewer Sainsf's most recent comment, here.  – Corinne (talk) 00:51, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi Corinne. I have not done much reviewing of articles, either for GA or FA, though I have participated on a few occasions. I will take a look at this one, though, and if I have any comments to make, I will certainly do so. Of course, I have made a very few small edits to that article myself, so I shall check the rules, but I don't think they prohibit me from making suggestions for further improvement.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:26, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Sinfonía india[edit]

Hello there, please feel free to clarify/re-name/re-number the themes here as you wish. It is the weekend, so I don't have access to the library to look at the references, which seem to state that there are three themes. Actually, I read (the English translation of) the Orbón analysis at the library this week, but don’t remember the contents well enough, and can’t read it entirely on Google Books. The Dictionary by Barlow & Morgenstern lists 6 “themes” in this piece: 1A, 1B, 2, 3, 4, and 5 (at rehearsal mark 88). (Here is an archive for the online analog.) I have instead labeled them 1A, 1C, 2, 3, and 4 (but haven’t added 5 yet) as I wanted to include the trumpet motif (my 1B) at rehearsal mark 2. The full score is available here. It would be great if we can get the section text and the score snippets to match up. By the way, do you know if it is considered okay (in terms of copyright) to add score snippets to articles, as I have done? Hftf (talk) 00:16, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Hftf. I was not aware that the Orbón had been translated into English. I don't know the Barlow & Morgenstern source at all (thank you for bringing it to my attention), but of course the way themes are "listed" will depend on the interpretation of the analyst. Orbón says there are three principal themes, and several subordinate ones. If my memory does not betray me, the one you have labled "theme 3" is the Yaqui theme (E-flat clarinet), which would appear to be Orbón's theme 2. García Morillo has a nice little table, showing all the thematic material and how Chávez regarded it as relating to traditional symphonic layout. Unfortunately, my copies of García Morillo and Orbón are currently in storage after a recent house move, and I cannot readily access them. Slonimsky is on the table in front of me, but unfortunately he does not go into such great detail. I also own a copy of ther Schirmer study score, but that, too, is in storage. Thank goodness for the availability of Leonard Bernstein's marked-up copy on the New York Philharmonic website!
I think there may be a strong difference of opinion about the legality of score excerpts like these. I have recently seen a spate of such examples added to a number of articles (particularly the symphonies of Ralph Vaughan Williams) and, so far, none have been challenged. Copyright law of course varies by country, which makes things complicated for Wikipedia. In the US (where Wikipedia is headquartered) I believe these little snippets would be covered by the doctrine of Fair use, but whether the fair dealing provisions of laws in many other countries would treat them in the same way, I do not know for certain. I think the worst that could happen is that they might be removed by an editor claiming a restrictive interpretation of copyright, but I don't have a crystal ball. In the meantime, thank you for your efforts. I think the examples enhance the readability of the article and make the thumbnail analysis clearer.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:42, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for your kind response. The Barlow Dictionary I mentioned is a handy little resource of about 10,000 musical themes alphabetized by composer. The second half is a sorted index of the themes transposed into C – very useful for figuring out what’s stuck in your head. The themes were all transcribed into MIDI on “The Multimedia Library,” although that site is now down. (I downloaded those MIDIs and shuffle them as a way to quiz myself!)
I believe that Orbón English translation appears (along with a few prefatory pages) as a chapter in the middle of Carlos Chávez and His World (2015) by Leonora Saavedra. I was very glad to stumble upon this brand new book at the library last week. It has a lot of other material, and here you can download the table of contents and introduction for examination. Some fraction of the pages are even viewable on Google Books, though it seems I have already used up my quota.
As for the excerpts, maybe we should label the three “primary” themes as Huichol/Yaqui/Seri, numbered separately from the secondary themes? I would be happy for you to add that information if you are willing, or else wait until either of us retrieves the sources.
I am also a fan of including a few score excerpts in articles (under fair use), as it makes it easy to cross-reference the actual music with the written descriptions. However, I worry that the excerpts take up too much space – maybe it’s better to use a collapsible box. Let me know if you have any more thoughts before I go adding such excerpts without restraint. I also still need to learn how to properly cite the scores. Hftf (talk) 01:29, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
Citing the scores is probably the easiest question to answer: Simply reference the score (with either a page or a bar number, e.g.: {{harv|Chávez|1950|loc=[page number, bar number, or rehearsal number (plus or minus bars), specifying which you mean]}}. FWIW, transposing the themes "into C" may be very useful in certain frames of reference, but not for themes stuck in my head, which tend to remain in their original keys (if any). I think the problem of numbering the themes has more to do with which source is regarded as the primary reference than with anything else. If the text refers to Orbón or García Morillo, then the examples ought to follow suit. I am grateful to you for bringing my attention to Saavedra's new book. I relish becoming familiar with it. As for the space taken up by the score excerpts, I do not think this should be a problem for the reader. After all, there are not so many of them.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:10, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
Sorry for getting your hopes up. It looks like the chapter I mentioned isn’t a complete translation of the Orbón liner notes: “These notes were followed by a detailed analysis of each of the symphonies, which we do not include” (p. 63). I’ll have to look for the complete liner notes in Spanish, or a different source that discusses the Chávez symphonies in detail. Hftf (talk) 22:38, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
My copy of Saavedra's book just arrived in the post today, and I discovered the same thing (I have already corrected the entries at each of the six symphony articles). In any case, Orbón's larger article does not constitute liner notes, but rather was serialized in three parts in the journal Pauta. I was a little suspicious when I learned that the new publication is approximately the same length (including Saavedra's introduction) as part 1 alone of the Pauta article. I am fairly certain that the relevant issues are in my institution's library, so I do not have to rely on finding my own copies which are in storage.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:45, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

your uboxen[edit]

Hello, at least with my monitor resolution etc., the descriptive text on your user page is bunched up to the left in a narrow column beside the uboxen. And argumentum ad populum is perfectly legit in linguistics, since it's the dividing line between descriptive and prescriptive viewpoints. [However, I suppose you do have to draw the line somewhere]. Cheers.   Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 04:09, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Hmm. I can possibly see what you mean. If I pull the right side of the window to the left, the uboxen and text of course remain the same size, so that the text re-wraps until it is in just a narrow column. On the other hand, if I pull the right side of the window out to the right, the opposite occurs until eventually the text dominates completely. I have to say I am not entirely satisfied with this display. Do you have a suggestion for how I can improve it? (I presume your reference to the argumentum ad populum is in reference to the ubox reading "even if 300,000,000 people make the same mistake, it's still a mistake." Of course I agree with you about linguistics, but only to the extent that in that case it is not a question of making a mistake, but in a mistaken definition of what a mistake is.) Cheers.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:57, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
I just now put {{clear}} there; revert if you dislike. I asked a question about an example you gave on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Michael Laucke/archive1. BTW, good job on the review. You have a good eye. Such details often escape me (and other editors as well).  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 23:03, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
I'll take a look. I believe that there are ways of enclosing uboxes in some sort of wrapper that will make them line up in more appropriate ways, but I have never taken the trouble to learn about them. I see now your question about the example, and it is a good one. I had always taken the rule on logical quotes to mean "if the quotation ends a complete sentence", but you are right: as defined in the MoS, the quotation must itself comprise a complete sentence. The traditional "all in" or "all out" approaches are so much simpler to apply, it is no wonder that they have become the preferred mistakes of the majority of writers and editors ;-) Thank you for your kind words. I do have a good eye for this sort of thing (years of practice, rather than any native talent), but only when I am examining texts by other authors. When looking at my own writing, I am too familiar with what I meant to say, so that even the most egregious errors become invisible to me.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:16, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
It's very good to have an excellent copy editor/reviewer around. We need more and more editors with a good eye such as yours... Everyone copies their userpages from User:Antandrus, but the code there is confusing. (I got a good start on copying it for you here but alas the bottom border is missing and I have to go now... real life calls...). If you look at "what links here" for Antandrus' page, and limit the search to only user pages, you can find many examples of people who stole the code. Their examples may be less complicated. Cheers!  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 00:27, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
Ha-ha! I suppose it is a tribute to Antandrus that so many people have chosen his user page to steal things from. It is possible that I have lifted some templates from that source myself, I do not recall, but I can assure you my thieving has been highly eclectic!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:31, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

(undent) You should take Stravinsky to FAC some day. Anyhow, talk to ya later!  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 03:09, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

That article was, of course, once an FA but was defrocked. That was some while ago, and I would want to investigate the circumstances. I do know that a lot of editing has been done to the article in the meantime, but at the same time I am also aware that a lot of problems remain. Certainly the subject merits any effort.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:26, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
Apparently back then it was seriously under-referenced, and included some questionable prose.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 03:39, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
So I see. Referencing is no longer such a serious problem, though the narrative remains a bit bumpy in places. The main problem is the size of the subject, of course. I can foresee an FA review going on for some time.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:49, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
Maybe yes. Probably yes. But that's no problem. :-) BTW, I totally forgot about my bio page at User:Ling.Nut/bio (my username used to be Ling.Nut). If you want, you can copy/paste it to your sandbox then change the text and userboxes into your own. That might work. Cheers  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 13:30, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the offer. It is certain that my abilities to format Wikipedia pages need improving, and this may just be the kind of practice I need.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:36, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

2016 Wikimedia Foundation Executive Director Search Community Survey[edit]

The Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation has appointed a committee to lead the search for the foundation’s next Executive Director. One of our first tasks is to write the job description of the executive director position, and we are asking for input from the Wikimedia community. Please take a few minutes and complete this survey to help us better understand community and staff expectations for the Wikimedia Foundation Executive Director.

  • Survey, (hosted by Qualtrics)

Thank you, The Wikimedia Foundation Executive Director Search Steering Committee via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:49, 1 June 2016 (UTC)


You should be ringed by the reply template on the talk page, and I left a short explanation there. I feel a bit foolish. It seems that the referencing is not only existent, but rather stellar. And prolific for an article that size. Like I said, I'm a bit at a loss for what happened, except that it had something to do with the many extensions, or a conflict between them. I hope there was no insult per my faux pas. And thank you for bringing that to my attention, or I likely would have be disruptively commenting and Twinkle templating myself to my first block. Heh. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 06:41, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

May I only suggest that deleting the statement to which an objection has been raised, while leaving the objection in place, is not a good idea. My own practice in such cases (which have, unfortunately, been numerous) has been simply to apologise or, in some circumstances, to strike out my own erroneous claim, though leaving the text otherwise in place. As it stands, you have left me looking rather foolish, objecting to a now absent statement.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:57, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, and agreed. Hence why I broke my own cardinal rule of never removing the text of another user, no matter the circumstances (even for incivility or disruption, which is something that many people apparently have no problem with). I've never had occasion to strike one of a my comments, so in all honesty, I don't know the markup to do so. But even if I had, it would still leave the appearance of a confused clusterfuck of a conversation, as it were.
Hence why I simply refactored my comment without that erroneous exposition I started with, and left the actual question that was still relevant. Had I left your replies, or even struck them out, I felt it would still be confusing (especially to any others who might happen by). It would have the same effect of you "looking foolish". I sincerely hope you don't mind.
Like I said, this was an extraordinary circumstance on my part. I would have simply retained the majority and struck it out, had I known how, and then started a new section. I don't mind looking the fool, but I thought I would save us both the embarrassment and the definitely possibility of confusing someone else.
I hope that was alright. Thanks for beign civil, by the way. Most would not be so kind, even if it was just a technical error. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 07:13, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes, this "refactoring" is fine with me. I think you are aware that at one stage, you had removed your initial question without also removing my reply to it, but this was why I invited you to simply delete the whole business and start over again. I think I have made enough mistakes myself by now to understand that not every edit goes the way it was intended. There is of course also Wikipedia:Civility, a pillar of the code of conduct all too often overlooked, in my experience. I try to abide by it, and hope that editors will increasingly do so in the future. It makes working on Wikipedia much more satisfying.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:41, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

"Process music" article improvement[edit]

Hi Jerome!

A couple of things about the Process music article:

1. I see you have reverted my edit to a citation (Sabbe 1977), giving these reasons in the edit summary: "The title is self-evidently in Dutch, and that translation does not do any favours to the reader unable to read the language". Let me respond:

  • Firstly, for English-speakers unfamiliar with Dutch, it's not at all evident what the language is. I believe it's helpful to at least identify the language the source is in; they might then know whom to approach (e.g. a Dutch person of their acquaintance) for clarification of anything – or everything – they find there.
  • Secondly, by giving an (admittedly rough) English translation of the title, it does the reader the favour (I like your spelling!) of identifying the subject-matter likely to be discussed in – and perhaps even the position likely to be taken by – the source, and thereby facilitates deciding whether they care to seek a translation of the entire source work.

So, as you can see, I disagree with your reasons for reverting. I felt that it was a useful addition, and thus an improvement, to the article. Nothing you wrote there has yet changed my mind, but please do feel free to try!

2. By the way, it seems to me that the incomprehensibility of the title of a reference is the very least of the problems with this article, even tho' it was one I could address quite quickly. Much more importantly, the history section seems to stop with Reich or possibly late Cage, probably giving the casual reader the impression that Process Music has come and gone, perhaps like Art Nouveau. It needs so much more to bring it up to date, including, for example, some examples of recent works by newer and current practitioners to illustrate trends in creating process music. Ironically, the only nod in this direction is in the sole external link to Jim Bumgardner's implementation of the Whitney Music Box, even tho' the article doesn't mention Whitney's work, nor the connection of Process Music to Visual Music. I note from the talk page that you and User:Hyacinth have worked on the article in the past. What do you think the most important areas are to address next?

yoyo (talk) 12:53, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

You may have a point, though I believe it is usual to give translations of book titles only for languages more distant from English than Dutch (e.g., Russian, Hungarian, or Japanese). The German titles in that same list, for example, do not have translations, and German is not as close to English as Dutch is (in my experience). Still, I might have just improved your (presumably machine-generated) translation, and probably should do so. The material from Sabbe was added by myself, so I am responsible for making it as comprehensible as possible to English readers. As for the lang-icon template, I believe it is intended for external links, where any reader may instantly link to a text that may turn out to be in an unfamiliar language.
The most persistent problem with the article, which I have been unable satisfactorily to rectify for some years now, is to define properly what "process music" is. I know myself that it has at least two distinct though related senses, one more general (as applied to the music of Elliott Carter, for example) and the other more specific (the Steve Reich "minimalist" sense), but finding reliable sources to verify these definitions is problematic. Like so many terms in music, this phrase gets thrown around frequently by people who seem to assume "everyone knows" what it is, while no-one ever bothers to set down a decent definition. Updating is another factor, and it sounds like you are in a better position to deal with this than I am (I cannot say I have ever heard of Jim Bumgardner or the Whitney Music Box, for example). Please feel free to bring the article into the last decade of the twentieth century, or further. If in the process you manage to find even a single source that plainly explains what process music in the widest sense actually means, I would be grateful to have it added to the article.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:44, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! I'll certainly try to do that – get a reliable source defining Process Music in the widest sense. Tho' certainly none spring to mind … Do you know whether Stockhausen ever explained what he meant by calling those early-60s works "process compositions"? i.e. in what sense "process" was more salient or important – during composition or during performance – than was normal in prior art? From the references, you've clearly studied and written lots about his work. Which leads to another question – do the ideas of intuitive music help to explicate Process Music? e.g. this quote from the intuitive music article:

for Stockhausen intuition must become a controllable ability, and therefore is an instrument of the project of modernity: "the investigation and instrumentalization of the world by controlled procedures" (Kutschke 1999)

You're aware, I guess, of the phenomenon known as Systems music, which I've only recently tripped over. I'm wondering whether there's a unanalysed gestalt here connecting these various names for styles which all have roots largely in the modern period between World Wars and flourished in the experimental zeitgeist post-WWII …  ? I find that last phrase of Kutschke's – "the instrumentalization of the world by controlled procedures" – very relevant to the increasing pervasiveness of industrial and computational process. So I wonder who, if anybody, has written taking a similar tack. I do know that some people found Stockhausen's approach to music hard to stomach, but did anybody (e.g. philosophers of music, aestheticians etc.) articulate clear objections to justify their gut response? So much speculation may be useless, but not if it turns up the definitions we're looking for in places we'd rather not look, such as negative criticism; so now I have a plan!
Apparently Frisian is the closest Germanic language to English, which fits with a very broad usage of the term "dialect continuum" that would include earlier versions of English, Frisian, Flemish (perhaps), Dutch, German (even in its most Continental versions, e.g. SchwitzerDeutsch in Switzerland) as variants of one language. It's typical for "languages" to include dialects of gradually diminishing mutual intelligibility, so that extreme dialects are extremely foreign. You doubtless know that the distinction between language and dialect is usually political rather than purely linguistic. Reason I didn't think to translate German titles first is probably because I speak it a little, so the words are more familiar (I had three German-speaking great-grandparents), and also because I thought Dutch was less widely known than German. (Fellow-Australians of my generation would have learnt French as their first foreign language, German as their second, with classical Latin and Greek in distant third and fourth places; other modern languages simply weren't available at school. Now kids are more likely to learn Mandarin Chinese, Japanese or Indonesian; and even - at long last! - some Australian Aboriginal languages are being taught in schools here.) Forgive my rambling … but language issues are very important to me!
You wrote that "The material from Sabbe was added by myself, so I am responsible for making it as comprehensible as possible to English readers" - please allow me to politely differ on this: as Wikipedians, we've both assumed the responsibility to make the articles as good as they can be. Thank you for improving my machine-assisted attempt at translating his 1977 title! (Tho' I did enjoy the resonances of "series-honoring principle", or perhaps "series-respecting principle", of course the phrase "serial principle" does have currency in English.) I haven't used the {{lang-icon}} template for a long time, if ever, and am unsure why you mention it; do you think we could use profitably use it with foreign-language sources such as Sabbe? yoyo (talk) 12:13, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Phew! That's a lot to respond to! First of all, I think that several of the issues you raise have to do with the relatively recent emergence of this concept. "Systems music", "process music", "minimal music" are all ideas in flux, which means that all too often they become Humpty-Dumptyisms: meaning whatever the speaker wants them to mean, and without prior clarification. There are certainly worse cases ("postmodern music" comes to mind). What we are waiting for, really, is for the dust to settle sufficiently so that some lexicographer can write an article for the New Grove or an entry for the OED that will tell us (with the usual supreme degree of inaccuracy) just what these words are meant to describe.
The sense you cite from Kutschke is one of the better examples. At least she clearly sets out just what it is she means, and the "machine-driven" idea is certainly at least one aspect of the subject (I think the term "systems music" is more or less coincident with this conception), though it could not be further from what Stockhausen and Carter mean by "process" (and they undoubtedly mean two different things, as well). I could attempt that more inclusive definition (and I did so once, in a paper that unfortunately remains unpublished), but unfortunately that would be Original Research. In any case, I believe that there are writers besides Kutschke who have followed up the idea of "automated systems", and certainly a lot of composers who have at least tinkered with the idea. Ligeti did both these things, in his early article on Boulez's Structures 1a, and in his pattern-meccanico compositions, respectively. I'm not so sure about people who have found Stockhausen's approach to music hard to stomach. In fact, I think most of the attempts to reject his music from a rigorous critical perspective (and there have not been many) founder on the fact that they fail to take into account what that "approach" actually was. As a target, Stockhausen is not alone in this respect, of course. Aesthetics is a slippery business.
I am aware of the claims for Frisian and English, having taught music lessons for a time to a retired clergyman who was Frisian. Your point, however, is that German is more likely to fall within the experience of English-speaking readers than Dutch (or Frisian!), and this is perfectly true. I thought you had used the {{lang-icon}} template to mark the language of Sabbe's book. My mistake: you did that manually. I don't thing there is much point in calling attention to the language of foreign-language sources in a bibliography, especially if a helpful translation is offered in cases where there may be some difficulty. The place of publication is often enough to tell the reader what that unfamiliar language must be, and the reader interested in consulting such sources will be required to go to a library or book store (or, in some cases, to GoogleBooks or similar resources), in the full knowledge that what they are seeking is not in English. My understanding of the "lang" tags (per the documentation at Template:En icon and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking#Non-English-language_sites) is that they are meant for external links where such clues are often totally absent, and an explanatory tag in English may mislead a reader to suppose clicking on the link will go to a site in that language.
It is very kind of you to differ with me on the point of responsibility for clarity. Of course it is true that all editors on Wikipedia share a responsibility to make the articles as good as possible, but it is also true that editors with a particular skill or knowledge base may be in a better position to clarify technical points than others. Dutch is decidedly a foreign language for me, but I can at least read it with a little comprehension, and the subject matter of that book is in my area of special expertise. Since I had the temerity to inflict such a source on this article, I think I am obliged to take on a greater share of the responsibility for its presentation than other editors are, while remaining grateful for any (hopefully more expert) assistance.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:54, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Translating Dutch -- Sabbe[edit]

Jerome Kohl (and yoyo), although I don't know much about process music, I happen to be reasonably fluent in Dutch. Don't hesitate to ask me in case of need − I am all the more at ease to say so that cases of need will not be that frequent ;−)).

Sabbe writes in a somewhat intricate Dutch. The best way to get a translation of his title certainly would be to ask him. I don't think I have his email, but one should be able to contact him through Mark Leman (see [1]). In the meanwhile, here are my five cents:

  • Het muzikale serialisme als techniek en als denkmethode: Een onderzoek naar de logische en historische samenhang van de onderscheiden toepassingen van het seriërend beginsel in de muziek van de periode 1950–1975.

The main problem is translating samenhang, which strictly means "connection", "link". I'd therefore propose:

  • Musical serialism as Technique and as Method of Thinking: A Study of the Logical and Historical Interconnections Between the Different Applications of the Serial Principle in Music from the Period 1950-1975.

I think that what Sabbe wanted to study in this (which was his PhD thesis) were the links, logical and historical, between different applications of serialism. This is more precise than merely the context of serialism in the third quarter of the century: it does concern the fact that although the applications were many and different, they did maintain logical and historical links between themselves − it is in this sense also that serialism could be considered a way of thinking.

Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 18:28, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Hucbald. I like "interconnections", which makes good sense in this context. I shall try to remember that alternative the next time I need to translate German Zusammenhang into English! Sabbe's focus is a bit narrower even than what you suggest, I think, but his purpose was to gain some sort of overview of what "serialism" meant for three Belgian composers: Pousseur, Goeyvaerts, and Goethals. I find his approach admirable, because he started from analyses of many individual works, and then attempted to find the commonalities, in contrast to the method adopted all too frequently, which is to make assumptions about what serialism is (seldom based on more than a single model—usually Boulez's Structures 1a), and then try to analyze multiple compositions to demonstrate that the hypothesis is true.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:49, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Nice! :) Besides samenhang, one other term I hesitated over was denkmethode, wondering whether, perhaps, the Dutch compound already carries connotations of a discipline of thought? What say you, Hucbald? yoyo (talk) 03:10, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Well, yoyo, only Hermann Sabbe himself could tell us what he preciserly had in mind. It is true that the Dutch methode has these two connotations, meaning both a "way of" (doing something) and possibly the discipline of this way of doing (as it could be taught in a textbook, a "method"). It seems to me that, since the English "method" has the same connotations, it remains the best translation, preserving the original ambiguïty. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 07:01, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for June 27[edit]

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Common noun or title[edit]

Greetings JK! With reference to this edit on Pelle Gudmundsen-Holmgreen, the title of the work in question is "Concerto Grosso", so maybe capitals are appropriate, though it is I suppose also a common noun. "Vivaldi on safari" is I think a comment PGH made about the work, but not the title of either the original 1990 version or the 2006 revision. --Deskford (talk) 16:28, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

I was unsure about this, Danish not being one of my strong suits. Thanks for your opinion, which I am happy to accept. Let us change it, if you have not already done so.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:22, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

for creating Piano Concerto (Chávez) – my all-time favourite in the genre :) Cobblet (talk) 08:04, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

My pleasure. It has long been a favorite of mine, also, but surpisingly challenging to find suitable reliable sources upon which to build an article.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:46, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, a true pity it's so poorly known and infrequently recorded. Cobblet (talk) 19:46, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
Well, four recordings isn't so bad, even spread over fifty years. Chávez's Violin Concerto has only had two, neither of which is complete, though I have to admit I do not find it anywhere near as compelling as the Piano Concerto. The Sixth Symphony, which I regard almost as highly as the Piano Concerto, also has had only two recordings.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:52, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Seattle Wiknic 2016[edit]

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In the Seattle area? You are invited to the Seattle Wiknic 2016 on Saturday, July 16, 2016, noon to 3pm at the Washington Park Arboretum, in the meadow area to the south of the Graham Visitors Center, approximately at 47°38′15″N 122°17′38″W / 47.637435°N 122.293986°W / 47.637435; -122.293986. Click here for more details!
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Jacques-Martin Hotteterre[edit]

I have added information about the Hotteterre recorders made by this family and Jacques-Martin in particular. I hope this addresses your concern about the article not supporting his being a recorder maker.


Theodulf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theodulf (talkcontribs) 00:20, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'll take a look and let you know if I have any concerns.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:22, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, but neither of the sources actually suggest that Jacques-Martin was the maker of any recorder from those workshops. Perhaps another source can be found? J-M was of course a famous makers of musettes, and almost certainly made transverse flutes (though whether any of his instruments actually survive has been called into question, most notably by Ardal Powell). But recorders? That is by no means so universally accepted, I think.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:35, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
Based on the limited research material I have available, I'm unable to come up with a more thorough defense. I see that you have better access to such resources than I do, so I will defer to you at this time. However, I wonder if a better solution is to have an article on the Hotteterre family, so the impact of the surviving instruments can be documented. (For the recorder community, the surviving instruments have had a notable impact.) And if you ever attend any of the EMG concerts in Seattle, I look forward to meeting you. Theodulf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theodulf (talkcontribs) 02:02, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Alas, my research on this topic is somewhat out of date. It is entirely possible that new information has surfaced in the last ten years or so, but the last time I checked there was no serious reason to suppose that J-M Hotteterre (unlike several of his family members) ever made a recorder. I think the most recent information I have dates back to David Lasocki's impressive update of J-M's biography, and of course Ardal Powell's article on the alleged Hotteterre flutes (which doe not discuss recorders at all). I genuinely hope that you will find some evidence that changes this situation—it would be sensational news to me. I do not attend as many EMG concerts as I used to, but I was the founding president of the organization, back in 1978.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:10, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
So you know Peter Seibert and remember Randy McCarty? Theodulf
Of course. Both of them were members of the founding committee of the EMG, though I had known both of them for some years by then. Peter is still with us, at 80, but of course Randy passed away some years ago now.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:46, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Sour Cream[edit]

I have placed evidence about why 1972 was their founding date and that their intention was to focus on avant garde material in the Talk page for that article. Theodulf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theodulf (talkcontribs) 03:39, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that. The citations actually should be placed in the article, and the one erroneously claiming 1969 removed. I don't see anything supporting the claim of intent to focus on avant-garde material, though.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:41, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Eagle-bone whistle[edit]

You may or may not enjoy looking at eagle-bone whistle, keeping in mind that other users define the whistle and its use as outside of music, as not being music(al), as well as that the talk page discusses a few issues, all of which involve my editing. Hyacinth (talk) 04:54, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

I noticed that you had added that article to the flute template. I did wonder if it might excite some controversy. Of course the fundamental question is whether a flute must be a musical instrument, or if there are flutes (disregarding champagne glasses and hollow grooves cut in classical columns) that fall outside that category. I'll take a look, thanks for notifying me.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:01, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
It depends on one's definition of music (and flutes: most American's don't think of a recorder as a flute). A whistle doesn't always serve as entertainment, and so has, so far, been accepted in the article.
When I was first contacted about this article, I literally assumed the user was going to ask me to transfer some money to Africa. The conversations have gone better than that, but not great.
It seems to me that if users are going to claim that they are obviously experts or Indians, or both, and thus know what is true, and, more importantly, what may not be said, but are not able to say it (because it may not be said) and why it may not be said, that an effort should be made to deal with the sacred, the holy, and the confidential.
It also seems that if one values traditional cultures around the world, Wikipedia policy should cover "oral culture" or a similar term ("pre-literate" should be avoided; "oral culture" would hopefully be revised), and cultural appropriation.
Unrelated, you might take a look the new Bigwala.
Hyacinth (talk) 23:33, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, of course, that too. It is always possible to define out of existence whatever one wishes, but carrying this to extremes will eventually isolate the definer in a little cocoon all by himself. The Hornbostel-Sachs definition of "flute" says nothing at all about its function, only its construction, and the same is true of gourd trumpets. On the other hand, the Wikipedia article Definition of music has been paralyzed for a long time now, both by opposing factions and poor reasoning.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

You may be able to give a better answer at User talk:Hyacinth#Brass instrument with quarter tone lowering than I did. Hyacinth (talk) 05:35, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Ooh! Maybe not. In theory, you are correct, but brass instruments have got some cranky tuning problems in different parts of their range, and this is really the kind of question that sould be addressed by a brass player. What ultimately matters is what the player can coax the instrument into producing. No trumpet or flügelhorn automatically produces in-tune notes at the touch of a button. Tuning requires skill.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:53, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Ranges of page numbers shouldn't be abbreviated[edit]

In this change to Buccina, you changed a range of pages from "711-712" to "711–12" (using an n-dash), citing MOS:NUM. As far as I can tell, the MOS rule only applies to date ranges. @PBS: and I have long been using full page numbers (with ASCII hyphens) in this context. Did you think these numbers were dates, or is there a new convention? David Brooks (talk) 23:53, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

I must say you have brought me up short: I was so certain that numeric ranges generally were covered in MOS:NUM, but I see that you are correct, insofar as only date ranges are specifically addressed. However, I do not find any rule—whether at MOS:NUM, MOS:CITE, or in the documentation for various citation templates—that specifies one way or another about non-date numeric ranges. The Chicago Manual of Style used to be quite specific about this (all numeric ranges involving three or more digits should be abbreviated to the last two digits unless the third digit also changes, eg., 397–401), but starting with the 14th edition, this became only the preferred method, with other variants permitted, so long as they are followed consistently (e.g., 4131–34 is preferred, but 4131–4, 4131–134, or 4131–4134 may be chosen alternatively). There is a Q&A discussion of this here. My copy of the New Oxford Style Manual is not handy, but I am certain that it, too, recommends truncation to two digits. What flummoxes me is that there seems to be no guidance at all on this point in the WP Manual of Style. Surely it should at least be mentioned (perhaps it used to be, and was removed at some point). By all means feel free to revert my edit, if it pleases you, and there are no conflicting formats in that same article. I have been working on a different assumption for over ten years now on Wikipedia, and you are the first editor to question this. I think some sort of congratulations are in order!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:08, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing to the CMOS: I'm really surprised at its recommendation because the truncation of page numbers just looks wrong to my eyes. I'm sure I've recorded hundreds of full-digit ranges in {{EB1911}} and {{Cite EB1911}} template parameters, so if the MOS gets aligned with the CMOS there would be a lot of remedial work. Also, we use ASCII hyphens rather than n-dash because it's easier to type (this is a template parameter after all); ISTR there was another reason for choosing hyphen but not sure. PBS, any insights? I'll revert that change for consistency with all the other instances. David Brooks (talk) 02:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
I suppose it depends on what you are used to seeing. I have been editing (professionally) to the CMOS standard since 1984 (and to Hart's Rules since about 1996), and the full-range page numbers look completely wrong to me. I think the use of hyphens within templates is simply a mechanical issue: the template will display en-dashes anyway, and it is probably best to use the hyphen as a default since so many editors will use it anyway. MOS:DASH and MOS:NUM make it very clear which is correct, but not everyone knows their keyboard shortcuts for en- and em-dashes, so the old typewriter substitutions live on in the post-typewriter age. I am personally very skeptical about those templates. On the one hand, I can see the virtue of overcoming by main force the bad typing habits of generations of writers; on the other hand, there is not a single mandated citation format on Wikipedia, which means that those templates are either unable to cope with all the variations, or become hopelessly complicated in trying to do so. I was personally unaware until this moment about the hyphen–to–en-dash feature in the "pages" parameter, but am happy to learn it is there.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:04, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Thank you for the heads up. In fact I have long considered reverting the changes in the MOS back to what it used to be, which was full dates years. MOS:DOB used to contain little advise on the number of digests to use in a year, because it was by convention the full year as all years used to be linked like this: 2016. There was a editor war over whether to link dates which ended with an RfC in favour of removing the links. After that there was a gradual move to using two digest for the range, but there has never been general agreement on this (and there is wriggle room with the use of usually). I have just created an section on my notes page on this issue User:PBS/Notes#MOS:Dates and numbers. In that I point out the reason why older physical guidelines suggest the use of these abbreviation you note appear in the CMOS, and that these no not apply in the digital world. Coincidentally this very issue is currently being addressed on the British Government website for Latin abbreviations see:

There is a difference between how dash and mdashndash are used on Wikipedia and Wikisource. On Wikipedia mdashndash is used in titles which involve dates. So for example is a page on Wikiepdia needs to be disambiguated by (DOB-DOD) then mdashndash is used, but on Wikisource dash is used. So for the title parameter because it is a link to an article on Wikisource dash should be used. For the pages parameter the template it does not matter what is used. I use mdashndash between page numbers with the full page number eg 201–211 not 201–11. The real world is interrupting my typing so I will come back to this topic later today or tomorrow (depending on your time zone) with a title example. -- PBS (talk) 09:46, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

I also have real life today (45th wedding anniversary :-) ) but... I was asking solely about page ranges, not date ranges. Since the citation template converts hyphen to ndash, I'm comfortable using hyphen for input and I take the template's behavior as implicit validation of ndash (not mdash) as the correct separator. In any case, I wonder how many wikipedians can even see the difference or know how to render an ndash; I have no data of course, but I guess the kind of people who populate citation templates are more likely to be the kind of people who worry about these things. Personally I can never remember all the keyboard long-cuts, and as I do much of my editing on a keyboard without numpad anyway, I get non-ASCII characters by tapping the onscreen keyboards and using tap-hold-slide.
But back to date ranges: I always thought that was ndash, not mdash. I always use ndash in a range of full dates (birth/death in a bio), but is there a different rule for something like 1939-45? David Brooks (talk) 14:21, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Congratulation David. I typed the last paragraph quickly I meant ndash not mdash -- I have now corrected it --Sorry for any confusion! If the page number ranges are now being checked for ndash to replace dash it is because the LULA module (under {{cite encyclopedia}} of which {{cite EB1911}} is a wrapper) checks the pages parameter.
I had a look through the Wikisource EB1911 article names under A and most of B and not one disambiguation uses dates, so maybe EB1911 articles on Wikisouce has no need of them, but there are thousands of them on Wikisource DNB see for example the first volume of s:Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900/Vol 1 Abbadie - Anne for example and thanks to a policy of removing unwanted redirects on Wikisource any redirects that are created using ndash are likely to be removed. For that reason it is best to stick to titles as they are on Wikisource whatever the MOS suggests is correct. -- PBS (talk) 15:34, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
References to encyclopedia and dictionary entries do not conventionally use page numbers, since their alphabetical arrangement within the source makes them easier to find by article title, and such articles are rarely long enough to make it difficult to locate a specific statement within the article. I am occasionally surprised on Wikipedia by demands for page numbers in such cases, so this this obviously not a universally known thing.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:26, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
In the EB1911 many articles are pages long. See for example almost any country/state entry. If one is looking up a citation in an EB1911 volume it is generally easier to binary chop to the right page than it is to look up the an article alphabetically (as the length of articles varies). We can not assume that everyone will be looking these things up through online links to the specific articles. If the page number is available why not include them for either or both of those reasons? -- PBS (talk) 21:29, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
I see no reason not to include both, just as issue numbers are often (redundantly) included for journals that are paginated by volume. I also find that exceptionally long encyclopedia articles (such as Harold Powers's New Grove article "Mode", which runs to something like 40 pages) are usefully referenced by section, especially when pointing to online editions like Grove Online which do not have page numbers at all! I am merely saying that alphabetical articles do not usually require page numbers. I could say conversely that supplying only a page number in a reference to an encyclopedia is not usually sufficient, since "p. 1024" (for example) gives no idea whatever about the context of the reference.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:39, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
I think we're all in violent agreement. Including the page number(s) seems more ... scholarly... somehow, and the article name is useful context, especially as it's often not the same as the WP article title. I know that almost exactly nobody will be thumbing through a paper copy of EB1911 to check a reference, but that isn't a reason not to do the right thing. Also, as PBS pointed out to me a while back, when you are researching the reference you usually have the page number right in front of you (either in an version or a transcluded WS version), so the cost is small. Currently I'm taking a break from verification, and using AWB to find references I created in the past without page numbers, and adding them. David Brooks (talk) 01:31, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I don't think there is any need to resort to fisticuffs. The situation I had in mind concerning page-numbers-only references to a dictionary/encyclopedia is one that I have encountered occasionally, where a single dictionary is cited on three or more widely separated pages. It is frustrating under these circiumstances not to know which if any of the cited articles are about the topic of the Wikipedia article, and tracking them down in online editions may be difficult or even impossible, if that edition does not bear page numbers.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:02, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I don't think that David, and I certainly would not, include a link to an EB1911 article without including the EB1911 article title. One practical reason for this is that EB1911 on Wikisource is accessed by article name. However as I said before, we would tend to include page numbers as well. There is a section in the EB1911 Manual of Stile that gives advise on how to create links within EB1911 articles on Wikisource (see: s:Wikisource:WikiProject 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica/Style Manual#Linking within an article) but it does not suggest adding anchors for sections, and while I include {{anchor}} points to section in EB1911 articles where they exist, many do not have them. For example the Wikisource article to which I linked above "Austria-Hungary" does not yet have section links.

There is also a practical reason for including page numbers in inline citations if one is using the {{harv}} family of templates as those are usually done using page numbers eg {{sfn|Phillips|p=5}} In which case it would be usual to include the page numbers in the references section:

  • {{EB1911|last=Phillips |first=W.A. |wstitle=Austria-Hungary |volume=3 |pages=2–39}}

While one can include sections into the templates using the parameter loc= — and this is how I did it in the Wikipedia article "First English Civil War" — this is unusual.

At the moment in Wikipedia articles there is a legacy of 5,338 Wikisource references without an artilce parameter. Usually the template {{EB1911}} in those 5k+ articles have no parameters. Someone who is going to fix one of those empty templates has several options. If the artilce exists on Wikisource then job done with a link to the artilce. If I do this, I also include volume, and if readily available page numbers, because it helps people with citing the EB1911 sources and it also meets the requirements of WP:CITE. However often the article has yet to be added to Wikisource as a proof read EB1911 article, so one is then faced with a problem for which there are four choices:

  1. Walk away and leave it for someone else to fix in the future.
  2. Proof read and incorporate the article in Wikisource EB1911. This is the best long term option, and is relatively easy to do if the article is a short one. However with articles like "Austria-Hungary" that include many pages and/or unusual formatting like tables, this is a far from trivial exercise, so an alternative may be the only option for an editor with limited time to make such changes.
  3. Link to another site which has the article. The problem with that is that one does not know if the version is accurate. Project Gutenberg yields low hanging fruit (so those articles have often been ported to Wikisource). If they have not then including the page numbers helps Wikisource editors find the article via the page[s] in the scan index of a volume to help with the creation of a transluded page easily checked against the original source.
  4. Link to the volumes at Internet Archive ( as can be found in the table at EB1911#External links. If this option is used while one can link to the page including the page number is helpful for any editor who wants to check the source, and like the previous option helps editors find the source in the scan index for porting to Wikisource.

In summary while I agree that the article name should be included, I think that including the page numbers as well is helpful and is incorporated as guideline advise in WP:CITE. -- PBS (talk) 12:35, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

As I said, complete agreement, and I would never not include article title. But as it happens, I have almost zero experience with the very long articles; that's your specialty!
Also... "5,338... without an article parameter". Well, that was 9,109 on Apr 7 2014, and crossed the 6,000 mark early last April, so we're getting there. David Brooks (talk) 14:08, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
I am pleased to learn that the EB1911 template requires the article title. The examples I had in mind were citations to the Harvard Dictionary of Music and the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians which, as far as I know, do not have specialized templates of their own (unless you count the badly formed template for Grove Online, which still outputs "Ed. L. Macy" even though she was replaced by Deane Root in 2009). Since I edit mainly on topics from the second half of the twentieth century, I do not often gave the opportunity to cite EB1911, but it is good to know the template is well looked after. BTW, the "page" and "loc" parameters of the HARV templates are not obligatory, and should be omitted when the cited source has but a single page or is cited by article title instead of page number (as with dictionary entries).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:40, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

The hidden notice[edit]

In the Holst discussion, you spoke of the many times you saw an editor whining about an added infobox reverted: kindly give me one example of such a thing, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:37, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps "whining" is a tainted term to attach to any particular instance, but certainly the editor at Talk:Maurice_Ravel#Infobox_was_reverted seemed indignant at not having been warned. There are similar, less extreme cases at Talk:Gustav_Mahler#Infobox and Talk:Aaron_Copland#Infobox.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:56, 1 August 2016 (UTC)[edit]

Hi Jerome, I am sorry for not including the citations earlier. Will you let me know kindly if this works better. Dyadyavasya (talk) 00:02, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

It works better, yes, but you should know that the letter S does not fall between P and Q in the Latin alphabet. I have moved the entry to its correct alphabetic position. I still find that the biographical article does not support very well the position that this obviously very successful commercial musician qualifies as "experimental", save for that one quotation (which, in the biography, is not properly cited).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:52, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

In case you find interest[edit]

Hello Jerome Kohl. We recently participated in a discussion which motivated my filing of an Arbcom request. Although you are not a named party, your interest in the RFC mentioned juxtaposes to potential interest in the Arbcom request as well. I am therefore, inviting you to consider your own interest in the matter, and welcoming your involvement should you find it desirous. Best--John Cline (talk) 17:27, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Very interesting request (and perfectly reasonable, in my opinion). Thank you for calling my attention to it.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:54, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Citation template[edit]

You replaced {{Citation}} with {{Cite magazine}} here. I have assumed this is unnecessary since {{Citation}} documentation says, "The Citation template generates a citation for a book, periodical, contribution in a collective work, patent, or a web page. It determines the citation type by examining which parameters are used." Please let me know if I need to stop being lazy about this. ~Kvng (talk) 14:42, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Guilty as charged. I have never been able to figure out how to make the {{Citation}} template render an entry properly formatted for a journal, magazine, or newspaper article. No matter what I do, it always seems to italicize the article title. I'm sure it is just laziness on my part, but my patience with the obscure inner workings of templates is not great. If you know how to do this correctly using {{Citation}}, I certainly have got no objection to your making the substitution. If I recall correctly, I was following a slightly earlier edit my someone else when I used {{Cite magazine}}, since it is not actually a template I have come across before ({{Cite journal}} is what I am used to).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:32, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
It sounds like {{Citation}} makes false promises. ~Kvng (talk) 14:10, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Symphony 5, Beethoven[edit] no, the time isn't evident in such a case. An article etc. can make use of research by other persons. (talk) 21:59, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Ah, I see your point. Nevertheless, do you agree with my solution?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:18, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes, it was a good Alexandrian solution. I would have preferred both year and researcher, but I can't see it's overwhelmingly important here. (talk) 01:43, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Without actually consulting the cited source, I can only assume that a publication in the Beethoven Journal would be the primary source of the research, and Stefan Romano therefore the researcher. On the other hand, the remark may have been inserted five years ago, at which point 2009 would be much more "recent" than it now is. As you say, it is not actually important whether either 2009 or the research is recent or not. Describing it as such has a distinct quality of breathless journalistic hype.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:55, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. That's another reason why I don't like the word "recent". And I can assume the same; I just prefer to be sure (but I won't go to the library tomorrow to check it). And I can't help but feel some interest in the fact that such a similarity to a work by such a relatively well-known composer has gone unnoticed for so long. Not that I say it's remarkable, but nevertheless. Oh well… (talk) 02:25, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes, in scientific research, "recent" means "not yet published", whereas in geology, in can mean "no more than ten thousand years ago". In music, the scale is not quite that broad, but still the word "recent" is not meaningful without some sort of reference point.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:08, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Baroque music: Difference between revisions[edit]

Sorry about Sebastián Durón and Antonio Soler. Maybe they don't gather enought merits to qualify among the best musicians. Although, in my humble opinion, José de Nebra and Antonio de Literes are two of the best Baroque composers, Gaspar Sanz was the best guitar composer and Juan Cabanilles was the very best of Spanish organist tradition. Regards. I leave here an small summary about these musicians. (Google translator).

-José de Nebra (1702-1768). He had a great career in the world of music. When the fire Royal Alcazar of Madrid happened in 1734, which disappeared completely the Royal Chapel's collection of sacred music in, Antonio de Literes was commisioned to make his recontruccion with new works. He became vice master of the Royal Chapel in 1751. Currently of the more than 170 works are preserved, though research continues to discover files in different scores. Among his most outstanding works include "Iphigenia en Tracia" (1747), "Donde hay violencia no hay culpa"(1744) y "Viento es la dicha de amor"(1744). I invite you to listen to any of them.

-Antonio de Literes (1673-1747). He composed for the royal chapel from 1690. In 1734 after a disastrous fire in the royal palace that destroyed the music file, is charged with José Nebra and choirmaster José de Torres to reconstruct the collection and compose new music to replace it he had lost. Had great success during the first half of the eighteenth century, among his works: "Todo lo vence el amor" 1707, "Acis y Galatea" 1708 y “Los elementos”. They were discovered in 2003 in the Cathedral of Guatemala several of his hitherto unpublished works.

-Juan Cabanilles (1644-1712). Study in Valencia and succeeded in becoming the principal organist of the Cathedral of Valencia with 21 years. This charge is held until his death in 1712. Cabanilles's work is, almost entirely, organ and within this embodiment shown special interest in the tientos and verses. They have been preserved abundant organ works: more than 200 tientos, 160 verses, 2 battles 5 Galliards 5 Pasacalles, 6 tocatas, etc. Maulstick is a very musical way of Hispanic music is essentially composed for solo instruments as the key, harp or organ (late seventeenth century only make up for keyboard instruments such as organ). Organ music of Juan Cabanilles represents the culmination of the Spanish-Portuguese organist music of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. His works include: "Mortales que amais" y ”Gloria Patri et Filio”

-Gaspar Sanz (1640-1710) He was a composer, guitarist and organist of the Spanish Baroque. He studied music, theology and philosophy at the University of Salamanca, where he later became professor of music. He wrote three books of pedagogy and works for baroque guitar that form an important part of current repertoire of classical guitar. It is considered the greatest Baroque composer guietarra.

-Sebastián Durón (1660-1716). He was a famous Spanish composer and organist. In 1691 he was appointed organist of the Royal Chapel of King Charles II in Madrid. After his death and the ascent to the Spanish throne of the new monarch Bourbon, Felipe V, in 1701 he was appointed master of the Royal Chapel. Maintain this position until 1706, when he was suspended because of the express support of the musician Archduke Charles of Austria during the War of Spanish Succession, which ended with the victory of the Bourbon candidate, King Philip V. Duron was exiled to France that same year . From 1715 he worked in Bayonne of chaplain exiled Queen Mariana of Neuburg, the widow of Charles II. He died in Cambo-les-Bains in 1716, sick with tuberculosis. His works include: "Salir el amor del mundo" (1696) y "La Guerra de los gigantes" (1702).

-Antonio soler (1729-1783). It was a Spanish composer and harpsichordist, representative of the Spanish school of keyboard music of the eighteenth century. He was choirmaster at the Cathedral of the Seo d'Urgell (Lleida). He served as organist and choirmaster of the Monastery of San Lorenzo de El Escorial (Madrid), where he would spend the rest of his life. He studied with Domenico Scarlatti. He composed numerous instrumental and religious works among which ten masses, 50 psalms nine magnificats, 16 motets and cantatas and carols about 130. He also authored a treatise on the theory: “Llave de la modulación y antigüedades de la música” (1762).

Historia Española (talk) 17:34, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the trouble of supplying all of this information. I am familiar with Cabanilles. Sanz, and Soler (for just that one composition, of course), but have never before heard of the others, which does not speak well for designating them as "key" composers of the Baroque. Keep in mind that your personal admiration for a composer is not the same thing as a general agreement by historians about their importance. However, the real problem is that the list is already too long, and includes some names (e.g., Zelenka and Pachelbel) that probably should be removed. If you believe that, for example, Cabanilles should be added (even though the organ composer Buxtehude is not included), then please remove one of the lesser names in order that the list should not increase in size.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:54, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your reply. You're absolutely right when you say that the list is already long enough, so I'm going to replace Zelenka and Pachelbel, since I agree your statement, for Cabanilles and Nebra unless you have any objections. By the way, I am surprised that you know Cabanilles, Sanz and Soler but have not heard about Nebra, if you are interested, you can hear many of his works here. Thank you very much for the time you've spent on this matter. Historia Española (talk) 22:30, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Historia Española (talkcontribs) 22:29, 14 August 2016 (UTC) 
I will leave your edits alone, but it will be interesting to see what other editors think about the "key" status of your nominations. I cannot say why I have never encountered Nebra before, except that he must not have been in the texts when I took the usual undergraduate music-history survey courses, nor did he come up in the graduate seminars I subsequently took in Baroque music history. I did not take any specialised courses in Spanish baroque music, but Cabanilles is certainly important enough to have come to my attention alongside Buxtehude and Pachelbel. Sanz is bound to be familiar to anyone with an interest in guitar music, though his compositions did not have much impact outside of that rather closely circumscribed repertory. I am a little surprised you did not nominate Denis Gaultier for elimination, since it might be said that his position relative to the lute is similar to Sanz and the guitar. However, the 17th-century French luthists had an enormous influence on the clavecinists of the later 17th and early 18th centuries, who in turn shaped the keyboard style of J. S. Bach, amongst many others. Soler is known to me solely for the infamous Fandango, which puts him very much in the same category as Pachelbel—a composer extremely well-known for just a single composition (though both were of course important in their day for other works now largely ignored by performers and therefore unknown to the general public). From what you have written about Nebra, I would suppose he is mainly known for his zarzuelas, and this is not an area with which I have much familiarity. I suspect this may be the case generally for non-Spanish-speaking listeners. Who knows? I think it will be interesting to see how your nominations stand up to scrutiny.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:37, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

5-limit approximations[edit]

You deleted them because the intervals had no exact value. I was approximating the 12-EDO intervals, and finding good approximations. Here is the result:
I just inserted them into lower interval pages. 2A01:119F:2E9:2F00:5D8:E31B:9181:988B (talk) 04:29, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

The trouble is that you seem to be assuming 12-equal tuning, whereas the articles make no such assumption. In fact, most of them are biased toward just intonation, so the "5-limit approximations" are in all cases not approximations at all, but exact fits, as already described in other places in the articles. Therefore, to claim they are only "approximations" contradicts the content of the article.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:53, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Flute bolding[edit]

Not sure why you reverted my bolding in the lead of Flute while citing MOS:BOLD. My bolding was in accordance with MS BOLD:

The most common use of boldface is to highlight the first occurrence of the title word/phrase of the article (and often its synonyms) in the lead section, as well as terms that are redirected to the article or its sub-sections. This is done for the majority of articles, but is not a requirement.

As I said in my edit summary, these terms were redirected here. Loraof (talk) 19:03, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps I owe you an apology, then. I did not realize that redirects should also be bolded, and it still seems awkward given that the terms in question are not actually synonyms for the article title. Still, the Law is the Law. May I suggest that, for consistency, redirects should also be created for the remaining two (rare) alternative names in that list?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:53, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
No problem! I'll create the additional redirects. Loraof (talk) 15:44, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
I see you already did it. Thanks! Loraof (talk) 15:47, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
I only created one of those two redirects. The one for fluter already existed, but for some reason did not connect directly, but instead first took the reader to the redirect page itself, requiring a second click to reach the "Flute" page. I see that has now been fixed.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:09, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Page ranges redux[edit]

Also addressing PBS: I was thinking again about the lack of guidance on page ranges in citation templates (123-124 versus 123-4), when I found the question is indeed addressed, if only by example. See Help:Citation Style 1#Pages, where the examples use full-style, not minimal-style. I only wish there were a more specific guidance, either to use full-style or editor-choice. The idea of searching the talk archive for any discussion just exhausts me.

And there I was, thinking that maybe CMOS is right, and about automating a reversion. After all, .NET RE's are powerful enough: ({{[^}]*EB1911[^}]*\| *)pages? *= *(?<lead>\d+)(\d+)[-–]\k<lead>(\d+) replaced by $1pages=${lead}$2-$3. But I now feel more comfortable leaving well alone (and changing to CMOS would anyway be classified as something to be done only after every other inconsistency in WP is fixed, some time in the 23rd century). David Brooks (talk) 22:46, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Do you really think things are going to move on that quickly, then? ;-)—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:55, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Pierrot Lunaire[edit]

I don't appreciate your passive-aggressive nonsense here, but if you looked at what you reverted, you claimed I was removing content because I didn't think a conductor was notable. As a matter of fact, I was removing links to store pages per WP:COM and a listing of an NN recording with no conductor whatsoever. Neither of those conductors you cited were removed, only the store links to buy the CDs. Therefore, your attitude and your reversion were both entirely unwarranted. MSJapan (talk) 17:13, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I believe I owe you an apology (except for the rude and unwarranted accusation of passive-aggressive behaviour—please see WP:AGF). I read the edit code rather than checking the actual article display, and from that it appeared you had deleted the two recordings in question. For this error, I apologize unreservedly. I detest as much as you do advertising masquerading as sources. If you have not yourself already reverted my edit, then I shall do so myself forthwith. I leave it to you to decide what to do about calling me names.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:18, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Timeline at Classical music[edit]

Hello, Jerome. I know the surname is spelled Granados. I reverted the IP because the spelling correction for some bizarre reason breaks the template and produces this mess, i.e., the version you restored. Best. Voceditenore (talk) 07:18, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I left a note on Talk:Classical music and fortunately Imaginatorium figured out how to fix the overall problem and fixed the spelling. But as he points out, the Timeline is still less than optimal. Voceditenore (talk) 12:35, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Good grief! Another triumph of technology over common sense. Well, thanks are owed to Imaginatorium, and I apologise for not realising what was really going on. This should teach me always to check the article after I make an edit!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:37, 11 September 2016 (UTC)


Hi, I would like to apologise for my drunken comments about musical theory some days ago. Thank you for clearing away my incoherent rants. Sorry. MinorProphet (talk) 19:14, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

I need your help on article Synthesizer[edit]

Hi, Jerome Kohl. Please forgive my sudden message. I need your help on article Synthesizer.

As already you know, on article Synthesizer, several anonymous users tend to create the false history of synthesizer without any source for unknown reason, and at least one login user have continuously supported them.

Recently I had corrected one sentence on that article, and also added one citation supporting both before and after modification. However, above login user immediately revert it including citation with a reason "poorly written addition", and even he warn me on my talk page.

It seems unsound spin of issue (ignoratio elenchi), and possibly a kind of Wikipedia:Harassment, in my eyes. I'm glad if you commented on above talk pages.(1, 2) --Clusternote (talk) 20:39, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi Clusternote. I see from the edit history and from comments posted on your Talk page that the issue seems to involve problems with idiomatic writing of English, more than matters of fact. Perhaps the best way I can help is to act as intermediary, by editing your prose before you try adding anything further. It may also help if you explain to me just what you think is incorrect about the article, and why. Let us try to work things out here on my talk page, and see if that solves the problem.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:02, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

What do you call...[edit]

A Czech-American who's kept the caron in his surname? A "hat Czech" Face-smile.svg. Sorry. Here's one, btw. At least I think he is, cause a "hat Pole" just wouldn't work. Basemetal 15:07, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Ironic, I suppose, that a circumflex is sometimes called a "hat", and yet it is an upside-down caron. Remeš is a fairly common Czech name, yes.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:05, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
Given all the grief they must have endured with keyboards I wonder if they didn't encourage junior to take up the organ just so there'll always be five keyboards he'll never have trouble with. Anyway, it was very brave of them to keep the diacritic, as someone told me many in the English speaking world think "diacritics" is a disease. PS: Maybe I shoulda written an "inverted hat Czech" but that would also have meant the reverse of... I can sense some mathematical beauty here though I can't quite... Basemetal 20:44, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
Two of my uncles (on my mother's side) got fed up enough with the haček in the family name (and the confusion about pronunciation caused either by the diacritic or by its absence) that they changed it to a similar, familiar English name. What with extended-Latin keyboard mapping on computers, it is becoming less of a problem to retain diacritics from almost any language, and of course there are many annoying examples of names (especially product names) that insert annoying "special characters" in an effort to çřèäté diśŧiñċţıvĕ ềƒƒəćťş.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:20, 26 September 2016 (UTC)


Notifying all named accounts who have edited this article this year. There is a discussion of whether this article should contain foreign language palindromes. If you would like to comment the thread is Talk:Palindrome#Non-English_palindromes_2 Meters (talk) 21:06, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

List of musical works in unusual time signatures[edit]

Hello. You asked whether "Karn Evil 9" is in "irregular 15/8, or compound-quintuple time?". I'm not a music theory expert, but I think it's irregular, since it's the beats are not divided into three equal parts. see Jellynote sheet music. Yoav Nachtailer (talk) 07:29, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. That is certainly not compound quintuple time, but it looks like a MIDI transcription of a rhythmically flexible human performance with the grid turned off. I notice that the second bar of "15/8" has only got eight eighth-notes in it. If the apparent errors in the first bar add up to as much as one eighth note, then it is actually two bars of 4/4 rather than one bar of 15/8. Still, if the cited source in the list states it is in 15/8, and this source can be cited to show it is not compound-quintuple time, then that is all that is necessary. "The threshold for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:37, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Sumer is Icumen In ref style[edit]

Hi, gosh, that's a bit drastic. There were (at least) two different ref styles in use in the article before I began, so there wasn't any evident "established reference style". If I broke something tidying things up, then we can readily fix it, it can't be anything very major. Or are you planning to turn all the blue numbers into parentheticals with Harvard citations? Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:12, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

By the way, not sure if you intended this, but you've also destroyed several recently added refs. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:15, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
I think you will find that there has been an established referencing style for that article since this edit on 25 July 2004. A few very recent edits (starting with this one on 11 June 2016) have introduced a conflicting format, which I am in the process of correcting. If I have "destroyed" any recent references, it certainly was not my intention, and I would appreciate your pointing them out so that I can restore them.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:20, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Tape loop[edit]

No one is likely to search a song titled "Tape Loop" under the title of "Tape loop" despite "Tape Loop" redirects there (on the search box)? © Tbhotch (en-2.5). 22:49, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

My mistake. I misread the hatnote, since it did not mention a song called "Tape Loop". I shall restore your edit, if you have not already done so.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:27, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Diatonic function, harmonic function, tonal function[edit]

I'd like your opinion about Diatonic function, harmonic function, tonal function. Thanks — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 12:05, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Paschal de l'Estocart and Musica Reservata?[edit]

Have you ever seen (any of) the music of Paschal (or Pascal) de l'Estocart (most plausibly his collection called Octonaires de la vanité du monde) mentioned in the context of Musica Reservata, for example at Grove's Musica Reservata article? Basemetal 17:10, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

I can't say that I have ever heard of this composer, though I am vaguely familiar with Claude Le Jeune's setting of (presumably) the same text. If I recall correctly, it is of epic proportions. A quick Google search suggests that I really should investigate l'Estocart, who seems well represented in the world outside of my own little bubble. Thanks for bringing him to my attention.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:00, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Chávez Toccata[edit]

First of all, I wish to thank you for all the contributions you have made on Wikipedia. You are one of the people who make the classical music articles on Wikipedia a more reliable source of information.

I would like to follow up with a few things about the Chávez Toccata. First of all, Thank you for correcting the embarrassing mistake of misspelling the composer's name. I hope I fixed the dead link [2] to the Kennedy Center website. For some reason, any Google search or search within the Center's website brings me only the mobile link. I wonder if there is anything said in the MoS about mobile links like this one.

As for the passage you marked as needing a reference, I made the meaning a little clearer. I meant that Chávez tried to illuminate the timbres and tones of normally atonal, (i.e.: percussion instruments that generally support the rhythm rather than the pitches in most traditional classical compositions). The LA Phil reference [3] states that the piece "makes for an enduring example of melodic, thematic writing for a seemingly non-pitched instrumental family." I understand why that passage might be unclear though. Do you have any suggestions as to how to make it still clearer?

I hope you had a great weekend. Let me know if there is anything I could do to make anything on this section of Wikipedia better. Damibaru (talk) 01:10, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your message, and for your kind words about my work on Wikipedia. Thank you also for initiating the article on the Toccata. I have not yet checked to see whether the dead-link problem has been corrected, but I am mystified by the term "mobile link". I have never come across this term before. Perhaps all will become clear in time. I think I see that you may have confused "non-pitched" with "atonal", which are two quite different things. Now that I understand what you were trying to say, I believe we should be able to resolve the differences in our points of view.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:24, 24 October 2016 (UTC)


If you're unhappy with my contribution, then re-format the goddam thing yourself instead of complaining.16:44, 25 October 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by NicholasNotabene (talkcontribs)

Thank you for your kind input. I have already reformatted the entry.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:46, 25 October 2016 (UTC)