User talk:Jimbo Wales
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Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The current trustees occupying "community-selected" seats are Doc James, Pundit and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is Jan Eissfeldt. |
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A general request for advice[edit]
I have a friend who is clearly notable and should be covered in Wikipedia. Because I have a COI (this is a friend) I want to take great pains to do everything the right way. Because of my position, I don't even think I should write a draft, although I do have sufficient links to share. Of course I have some additional concerns that at least some negative people may wish to excessively object just to pick a fight with me - I'm not interested in fighting anyone. Or that my participation may bring negative people to want to come in and troll by trying to dig up dirt or writing the article in a negative way.
All of that argues for simply doing something quiet - asking trustworthy people in an off-wiki way to take a look and see if they want to write an article. But I actually think it would be much nicer if I had community guidance on how to do this transparently.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:48, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- If you weren't the founder or the "Queen of England" or whatever people use to describe your position now, then there wouldn't be a problem here. Just write a draft or submit something to AfC.
- But you are the founder and I don't think you can avoid the trolls (in a transparent way). Hopefully though some folks (plural) here can keep an eye on the article.
- I'll suggest you just write an intro paragraph and dump it, together with the links, onto a user page. I'll do a basic Google search, read your links, ignore your intro (after finding out why the person is notable) and write a very boring short basic article and post it if I think it is notable. At that point others can come along and add anything that might be controversial in any way, or that might make the BLP interesting. Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:17, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Jimbo Wales: Due to the hastle posed by trolls, an off-wiki email to a user would be a fine way to go. If you're going to be transparent, then there's not much point in not writing a draft, since it won't make any difference, I don't think, to prospective trolls. The page has some significance to you, that's going to be enough to make it a target. Go big or go home. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 18:35, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- As we all know, it's not "Queen Jimbo", it's Duchess of Cornwallshire. He's better off writing anonymously. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:56, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Jimbo Wales: Due to the hastle posed by trolls, an off-wiki email to a user would be a fine way to go. If you're going to be transparent, then there's not much point in not writing a draft, since it won't make any difference, I don't think, to prospective trolls. The page has some significance to you, that's going to be enough to make it a target. Go big or go home. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 18:35, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- Write it in Draft space and see what happens, I reckon. It'#s what we advise everyone else. Guy (Help!) 22:43, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- Off-wiki contact would seem opaque and could, justly, be criticised as a conspiratorial and autocratic approach. It also has pretty poor optics if the founder of Wikipedia will not abide by the Five Pillars and participate in the collaborative editing process. Given your Conflict of Interest you also should not draft this yourself, much less post it to mainspace (And, yes, that is a higher bar because you are who you are.). As I see it, the only clean way to approach this is to post a redlink accompanied by a couple of central cites to start from here, along with a request that interested talk page watchers both develop an article and keep an eye on it afterwards.As for the trolls, do you really think an article associated with you is the only one that would be subjected to unconstructive editing? If Wikipedia cannot cope with that on an article that gets extra special attention because it was suggested by Jimbo, what hope does it have of dealing with the same for other subjects of interest to various stripes of trolls? There is a long list of ArbCom cases that reflect the number of outside groups that have an interest in pursuing their aims through Wikipedia, some of them far better organised, resourced, and motivated than your personal haters. And though you are a very visible target with effectively celebrity status, with all that that entails, for some of the categories of unconstructive editors there are regular editors here who are much more desired targets (and I've seen the discussions of outing and off-wiki coordination, and the relative adequacies of our policies to deal with them, discussed on this page, so I presume I don't have to give examples).However, the good news here is that with that sort of approach, combined with the general irreverence for "The Founder™" on display here, I think Wikipedia is very well equipped to both avoid bias in any such article, and to let community processes (like a notability challenge at AfD) work unhindered by any misplaced loyalty. I would be sceptical of you participating directly in any such discussions (as in, making arguments or interpretations, versus merely providing a link or supplying a fact) because we're hardly immune to such influence (much as we like to imagine otherwise), but absent that my assertion is that our processes are robust enough to handle it.I see your fears, and they are justified, but I think the only alternative to complete openness is to not act at all. If your fears of undeserved negative attention are justified, and from the perspective of a friend, it may simply be preferable for this person to not have a Wikipedia article at all. From Wikipedia's perspective, of course, if the person is notable, it is always preferable that we have an article on them, even if primarily negative (if that's what the sources support): but you really aren't acting as a part of the project here, you're acting primarily as a friend. For a friend, a good consideration to take is whether a certain kind of exposure will, on balance, be a net good or net negative for the person. --Xover (talk) 09:38, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- I don't really understand the need for a song and dance (not you, Xover, just generally) when it's a simple affair concerning a COI—and our SOP is to allow the editor to write their article, and simply submit to WP:AFC. Having, of course, disclosed their COI on the talk page. It would have the added bonus of allowing the founder to experience what it's like for a new editor. Something, in fact, that a lot of us could do with being reminded of.... ——SerialNumber54129 10:39, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- Please, I don't want an article. -Roxy, the Prod. wooF 10:51, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- Well, Jimbo will never actually experience what it's like for a new editor (except in the most technical sense) without resorting to socking, is kinda the point. On the CoI issue, my assertion is that he needs to meet a higher bar than any other given editor, by the simple fact of who he is and his role relative to the project. But then, I don't think that's the issue that's his primary concern here: we're discussing the details of ways and means only as a consequence of the main concern (and for that issue, see my last para above). No approach to creating this article in an actually transparent and fair way will address that concern. --Xover (talk) 11:11, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- That suggestion was of the tongue-in-cheek variety :) But if the fundamental concern is that an article JW writes is immediately going to be trolled, here they are. Looking at the last five (including a BLP), I think concerns that JW's article's are intrinsically targeted...are perhaps overestimated.*Mike Brown (transport executive)—50 edits since creation in 2017.*The Lazarus Effect (2010 film)—50 edits since 2010.*Sonny Lester—50 edits since 2009.*Mzoli's—50 edits since 2011.*Breaking Home Ties—50 edits since 2007.Anyway, you get the drift. The way I see it, I'm sure there's plenty of people who would love to "pick a fight" with JW—they're just not doing it in articlespace! ——SerialNumber54129 11:37, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- I do concede that my perspective may be hypersensitive.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:51, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- That suggestion was of the tongue-in-cheek variety :) But if the fundamental concern is that an article JW writes is immediately going to be trolled, here they are. Looking at the last five (including a BLP), I think concerns that JW's article's are intrinsically targeted...are perhaps overestimated.*Mike Brown (transport executive)—50 edits since creation in 2017.*The Lazarus Effect (2010 film)—50 edits since 2010.*Sonny Lester—50 edits since 2009.*Mzoli's—50 edits since 2011.*Breaking Home Ties—50 edits since 2007.Anyway, you get the drift. The way I see it, I'm sure there's plenty of people who would love to "pick a fight" with JW—they're just not doing it in articlespace! ——SerialNumber54129 11:37, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- I don't really understand the need for a song and dance (not you, Xover, just generally) when it's a simple affair concerning a COI—and our SOP is to allow the editor to write their article, and simply submit to WP:AFC. Having, of course, disclosed their COI on the talk page. It would have the added bonus of allowing the founder to experience what it's like for a new editor. Something, in fact, that a lot of us could do with being reminded of.... ——SerialNumber54129 10:39, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Celebrities have same rights as community[edit]
Looking at the ethics, any celebrity has the same rights, as anyone, to have a separate pseudonym username, and then submit a draft page to wp:AfC for any topic except relatives or business partners. A secret pseudonym cannot be outed; however, per wp:SOCK, a username should not used for evasion, but could be used for a topic-area, such as have 3 usernames for different topics, with one to edit some wp:BLP pages, another for general edits, and yet another for editing nuclear physics or some other limited specialty. The point is to ethically answer, "Why did you use that username?" ... "To edit biopages, or physics" (etc.).
By having multiple other usernames, then evasion would not be a foregone conclusion as when only one pseudonym. Meanwhile, the danger of editing with other usernames is the problem of same-page editing via sock names, and hence, the easiest method is to focus on a main other-username for most pseudonym editing, then rarely use the additional usernames as only for extremely limited topics, such as submitting AfC drafts. As for "friends" in a sense, then any editor could imagine a one-way friendship as fan of a celebrity, or secret mentor to assist a notable person, and hence I do not think submitting a draft for a notable occasional friend as if an unethical COI problem, not in the sense of writing about a notable family member, company investment or co-worker sharing corporate success. Perhaps an essay, "wp:Celebrity status" could explain how celebrities could edit same as anyone else, but beware promotional text. More later. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:43, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- Celebrities have the same right to self-promotion and concealed COI as everyone else. Which is to say, none at all. Guy (Help!) 00:22, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- If you're trying to dodge trolls with respect to a prospective new article, this is probably the worst play that could have been made. But here's the answer: you can write an article about your friend in mainspace, assuming you have no financial connection to them. It is nice, but not essential, to make a pro forma declaration of your relationship on the talk page. Do NOT submit anything to the dysfunctional circus that is AFC. When you are done with the piece, ask a trusted Wikipedian who is not your friend, such as Cullen328, to have a look at the piece and make any corrections or amendments they deem necessary. Having advertised all this here only paves the way for a dramafest. Carrite (talk) 18:40, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
- Although I have had a couple of disagreements with you, Jimbo, I am not the type to hold a grudge and would be happy to offer you my frank assessment of any such article. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 21:47, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedians face tedious U.S. election recounts[edit]
Wikipedians are finding complex issues among the 20+ recounts in the 2018 U.S. mid-term elections, although some contests have been resolved by counting mail-in ballots, other recounts are tedious, such as Florida for Senator, Governor and Florida Agriculture Commissioner (1 of 3 cabinet positions). The wp:RS reliable sources, for detailed recounts, have been difficult to find, but local TV transcripts in each region of Florida seem to provide the best details; for example CBSMiami.com with "Sen. Nelson Wants Gov. Scott To Recuse Himself From Recount Process" (12 Nov 2018), after Florida court rejected Governor Scott's lawsuit to impound ballots and tabulating machines before the recount was finished. For the Senate contest, the other recount antics appear to be 2000 Florida recount all over again, just with different lawsuits and protests. For example, the Broward County Supervisor of Elections was met with jeers of "Lock her up" because some vote counts were late in her county. Bags of mail-in votes (Opa-locka) were rejected in Miami-Dade County because those ballots were delayed when the recent pipe-bomber caused a shutdown of some Florida post offices, where packages of explosive devices had been shipped to Democrats, as also causing delays for (majority-Democrat) mail-in ballots, and a perfect excuse to reject allowing those post-marked Democrat votes as "too late" to be counted. All Florida precincts now are required to use pen-marked ballots (no more "hanging chad" of the prior push-pin ballots), but a curious vote tally occurred in Broward County, where nearly 25,000 ballots had no vote for Senator while showing few votes omitted for lower offices, as the reverse of the typical trend where the highest office has the most total votes, compared to lesser offices skipped by busy voters. Perhaps Wikipedians will have more time to write about such events after the recounts are finished. As typical, many areas of enwiki are updated by mere skeleton crews of editors who have limited time to write about recount-delay antics. More sources later. -Wikid77 (talk) 18:30/18:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- Higher lawsuits to stop recounts... perhaps Supreme Court: A judge for Palm Beach County, Florida has suspended (extended) the vote-filing deadline (of 18 Nov 2018) because Sen. Nelson contended there were not enough tabulation machines to run all 4 recounts around West Palm Beach, including the U.S. Representative recount (source: "Judge suspends some Florida recount deadlines" WCTV.tv, 14 Nov 2018). And, of course, the judge's ruling has been contested by Republicans at the next-higher federal court. Meanwhile, Senator Nelson's attorneys have filed a federal suit to extend all 67 Florida county vote-filing deadlines, with the argument that all counties would have equal time to recount carefully (and avoid lawsuits where some counties had unfair extra recount time). All this one-upmanship might reach the U.S. Supreme Court, as in the Gore/Bush 2000 Florida recount, with a growing pyramid of lawsuit/appeal actions. Again all these events might be difficult for our new Wikipedians to cover. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:11, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
There's a simple solution: outlaw gerrymandering and voter suppression, and introduce independent districting and electoral commissions. Having a candidate's family or supporters, or, much worse, the candidate themselves, in charge of an election and its oversight, is so obviously inappropriate that one wonders when people decided that they could get away with it so the hell with it. Guy (Help!) 00:21, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- Well, the gerrymandering has continued for about 200 years (since 1812). However, another crucial problem, detected by recounts, has been the effect of confused ballot design, such as the rejected write-in votes for "Al Gore" in the 2000 Florida recount, when people punched the chad for Al Gore but also, for emphasis, put Gore's name in the write-in slot, and the machine count opposed both votes. Now, some voters had punched+written in George Bush, but Gore had thousands more overvotes, and if the ballot were redesigned to favor write-in names as overriding the punch vote, then Gore would have won the initial Florida vote, as certified. The extra votes would have put Gore ahead by ~1,500, not Bush by 537. Hence, even if the recount were halted by the Supreme Court, then the candidate with most votes, Gore, would have won the Presidency. Other ballot-design problems have ruined other elections, such as the "butterfly ballot". Perhaps call the general problem "ballotmandering". -Wikid77 (talk) 13:10, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- Florida hand-recount until 18 Nov 2018: The prior machine-recount has confirmed the close vote, and now Florida has a statewide hand-recount for Senator and Florida Agriculture Commissioner, in all 67 counties, to finish by midday on Sunday, 18 Nov 2018, for all rejected ballots (undervotes or overvotes) during this 3-day, hand-recount period. With all the tedious lawsuits, the myriad details are being written into each office-race page, such as "United States Senate election in Florida, 2018#Nov 7 to the 14th" between Senator Bill Nelson and Gov. Rick Scott, and has been updated for events through 15 Nov 2018. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:22, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- Broward County 25,000 Senator votes maybe blank: Another hypothesis has arisen, about the 25,000 undervotes for U.S. Senator on ballots in Broward County, FL, for how those might truly be blank votes at the bottom of page 1, where the U.S. Senator vote was at the bottom of column 1 instructions, while the Florida Gov. selection was at top of column 2, as seeming to be the major office, and perhaps voters got "voter fatigue" selecting local officials+referendums, and they forgot to hunt back for the U.S. Senator vote below the ballot instructions. This issue was just speculation, and so sources don't yet report actual blanks for the 25,000 undevote ballots in Broward. Details about the 25,000 have been questioned all week and will likely be reported tomorrow afternoon, with overall hand-count totals. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:31, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
- Sen. Nelson conceded as 10,000 lower in manual recount: As soon as the manual recounts were totaled, Senator Bill Nelson conceded after gaining only 2,500 more votes above the difference behind Gov. Rick Scott, who had spent $60 million (see WFTV Orlando: [1]) while flooding TV with negative attack ads against Nelson. The final 2 recounts: Bill Nelson: 4,089,472 manual votes above 4,085,086 machine recount, as only 4386 votes gained manually. The election office had retro-approved the 2-minute-late (3:02 pm) Broward county recount which had lowered Nelson's total by nearly 1,000 after a stack of ~2,000 ballots were damaged and omitted in machine recount. Logically, the missing 25,000 Broward votes did not add much, because only ~6,000 votes were gained by manual recount. No source yet on what-up with those 25,000 undervotes. Rick Scott, as a half-billionaire, is expected to be the richest U.S. Senator in January 2019. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:54, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Horrors of a POV-fork page[edit]
Jimbo, over 10 years ago, you had warned us how a wp:POV_fork page could be major trouble, but I didn't really understand the severe problems until I found the 2017-2018 page "Irish slaves myth" (real page, not a joke). I have concluded how the page first should be renamed as "Irish slavery debate" for the balanced title used in various broader sources. Meanwhile, let me describe the horrors of the POV fork. Well Jimbo, you probably already knew, as I did not, that captive Irish forced labourers have been called Irish "slaves" for centuries,[2] possibly even by those same Irish men, women, and children themselves, while they lived out their "myth" of capture, forced transport, being re-sold, whipped,[3] or having their "indentured servitude" doubled by their masters, from average 4-9 years[4] as 8-18 years in bondage with hard labour. My first frustration, when I tried Google Search about the "myth" was the discovery that all search-results kept reinforcing the slave-myth viewpoint, in dozens of sources, as a Google confirmation bias enslaved (pun intended) to the POV-fork's title phrase, with "myth" as a word rarely used in broader sources. Finally, I realized the term "debate" as in "Irish slavery debate" had become the neutral phrase to discuss historical sources, versus "blarney" and then Google with "debate" found scholarly sources comparing forms of forced slavery. The second horror was trying to add facts into the page, as to refute the "myth" viewpoint, but those phrases were removed as off-topic from the myth meme.
Then the 3rd horror was checking the page revision-history where 2 years of objections had been edit-warred into the page, but often by IP users (who tend to be WP's secret experts), but of course cannot be contacted to ask follow-up sources because rotating IP-address users live with temporary IP usernames. Anyway, I regret such a page, as "Irish slaves myth" has festered on enwiki for 2 years, but I intend to write an essay about fork problems, as a real-life example of how a POV-fork can promote a radical viewpoint for years, despite hundreds of years of (written) facts to the contrary, not a "myth" invented in the 1990s to bolster internet racism. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:50, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
- What next? Flat Earth debate? Casein theory of lunar geology debate? Numerous migrant worker populations were shamelessly exploited, but there is an important technical distinction between that and slavery, and the entire "Irish slavery" thing right now is driven by racists seeking to undermine the Civil Rights Act. Guy (Help!) 23:25, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
- Well, we could cover "Flat earth medieval debate" to explain the related topics which were controversial in the 1400s. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:47, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- The Greeks knew the Earth to be round by the 3rd Century BCE, Bede wrote of the world as an orb in the 7th Century CE, this was settled among people of learning from a very early stage and flat earthism only held due to ignorance. The Irish slave myth is a trope deliberately fostered by racists. There is a difference. Guy (Help!) 20:03, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- Well, we could cover "Flat earth medieval debate" to explain the related topics which were controversial in the 1400s. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:47, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- The two sources you cite go to great lengths to distinguish African slavery from "myth" or "meme", including the one one using "debate", saying: "In recent years, right-wing whites have inundated social media and cyberspace with the lie that Irish ‘slavery’ was worse than that suffered by Africans." It goes on to say, "In contrast to those of African descent, the Irish were never legally nor systematically subjected to lifelong, heritable slavery in the colonies." "Lie" and "never" are quite definitive. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:53, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
- So, the page could be expanded for issues of "lifelong" (versus old-age manumission or coartaciòn or black indentured servants for release of slaves). Also count how many slave children were born to those slaves as a hereditary problem. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:47, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- Hereditary problem? What do you mean? And what don't you get about, "never legally nor systematically"? It's not good form for you to argue against the sources you cite, it looks like POV pushing. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:39, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- I think the Irish slaves were captured and sold ("contracted"), systematically, along with their children and grandchildren, as Irish slavery was instantly "hereditary". Also, I check everything in a source, plus check the sources they cite; and when sources refute ever more phrases in a wp:POV_fork, then I search more sources to de-myth the "myth" and write the truth about the actual details as documented for centuries. When people claim the truth as a myth, then they often overreach and claim every aspect as a myth, per "The lady doth protest too much" or where there's smoke there's fire, as when the de-mything finds 7 true aspects called "myth" then there are likely dozens more aspects also not myths, such as the false claim that the term "Irish slaves" was invented in 1990s when actually written for centuries. -Wikid77 (talk) 18:05, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- What? So, you admit you are a POV-pusher, arguing against your own source, because you 'can't handle the truth', as they say. What you "believe" does not matter, what matters is the source you cited says, "In contrast to those of African descent, the Irish were never legally nor systematically subjected to lifelong, heritable slavery in the colonies." It is you, who protests too much. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:06, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- I think the Irish slaves were captured and sold ("contracted"), systematically, along with their children and grandchildren, as Irish slavery was instantly "hereditary". Also, I check everything in a source, plus check the sources they cite; and when sources refute ever more phrases in a wp:POV_fork, then I search more sources to de-myth the "myth" and write the truth about the actual details as documented for centuries. When people claim the truth as a myth, then they often overreach and claim every aspect as a myth, per "The lady doth protest too much" or where there's smoke there's fire, as when the de-mything finds 7 true aspects called "myth" then there are likely dozens more aspects also not myths, such as the false claim that the term "Irish slaves" was invented in 1990s when actually written for centuries. -Wikid77 (talk) 18:05, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- Hereditary problem? What do you mean? And what don't you get about, "never legally nor systematically"? It's not good form for you to argue against the sources you cite, it looks like POV pushing. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:39, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- So, the page could be expanded for issues of "lifelong" (versus old-age manumission or coartaciòn or black indentured servants for release of slaves). Also count how many slave children were born to those slaves as a hereditary problem. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:47, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- I believe the "myth" part comes from presenting this issue as a false dichotomy -- in today's age of actual respect for human life, the abuses heaped on all immigrant populations of that time are so horrible and unimaginable that emotionally they appear the same to us, despite the material fact that Africans had it much worse than others. Daß Wölf 03:09, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- There is no doubt that Britain treated Ireland very poorly and you could even call it genocide or ethnic cleansing, but the "slaves" were largely prisoners of war and other people captured during the course of war. Irish people brought to America were assimilated into the culture within a generation - their children did not become slaves. No doubt Irish people were treated poorly at times, but there's just no comparison at all and there's not a serious debate about the subject - just people trying to minimize our ill treatment of African Americans. --B (talk) 14:06, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- Well, check the facts of imagined "ill treatment" of African Americans, who actually often lived in the master's house, or had private rooms in the servant quarters of the mansion, or whose children played alongside the owner family, blacks with white children, or were given manumission liberty when the master died, etc. -Wikid77 (talk) 18:05, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- ...imagined "ill treatment" of African Americans... OK, now I know that you are one of those. Thanks for identifying yourself. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:40, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- OK. As the very source you relied on at the beginning, here, says: "In recent years, right-wing whites have inundated social media and cyberspace with the lie that Irish ‘slavery’ was worse than that suffered by Africans." Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:53, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- Wikid77, I'd encourage you to read Up From Slavery, Booker T. Washington's autobiography, specifically the first few chapters where he discusses his childhood as a slave in the decade before the Civil War. If that's not ill treatment to you, I shudder to think what is. Daß Wölf 02:26, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
- Well, check the facts of imagined "ill treatment" of African Americans, who actually often lived in the master's house, or had private rooms in the servant quarters of the mansion, or whose children played alongside the owner family, blacks with white children, or were given manumission liberty when the master died, etc. -Wikid77 (talk) 18:05, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm thinking about all of this. I only have a couple of potentially useful thoughts so far. First, let's imagine a hypothetical position that someone might have. "Because this group is using the plight of people A in order to minimize the plight of people B, we should minimize the plight of people A." This is clearly wrong. Let me make the relevant substitutions here, "Because modern racists are using the plight of Irish people to minimize what happened to Africans, we should minimize what happened to Irish people in order to deprive them of that rhetorical move." I think it is obvious why that is wrong. (I don't think anyone has actually taken that position, but surely you can see that some of the discussion here comes perilously close to that.) The only thing that matters in describing the situation of these Irish people is... the situation of those Irish people. In particular, what matters is what reliable sources, both historical and contemporary, say about the matter, quite independently of the debate about the misuse by racists. Now, as it turns out, I think that - as far as I am aware to date - the idea that Irish people were slaves in America actually is a myth. So my point is NOT to say "Oh, but the racists have a point" - I doubt very much if they do. My point is - my position (our position) on the historical matter should be wholly independent of what racists think.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:56, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- I think historians refer to Irish slaves in the British American colonies circa 1640-1660, whereas the term "America" has become synonymous with "U.S." (1780s) as after the generations of Irish slaves were gone, many dying young due to sickness, such as yellow fever or malaria, while black slaves with sickle cell trait or African immunities magically had not died from such diseases. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:03, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
- This article is about the cultural relevance of a myth/meme,[5] [6] [7]. If one wants to further explore Irish indentured servitude or penal transport, it make sense to look at those linked articles. It perhaps says something that we don't have 'English indentured servitude'; 'Scottish indentured servitude'; 'French indentured servitude', etc., etc., articles, but presumably the persons who started these articles found people (Irish nationalists and others [8]) have written about the Irish. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:51, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
A barnstar for you![edit]
| The Special Barnstar | |
| Hi! SirBlueStar (talk) 06:33, 18 November 2018 (UTC) |
Award![edit]
| A duck! | |
| Hi! SirBlueStar (talk) 06:39, 18 November 2018 (UTC) |
