User talk:John

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A Note on threading:

Interpersonal communication does not work when messages are left on individual users' talk pages rather than threaded, especially when a third party wishes to read or reply.

Being a "bear of very little brain", I get easily confused when trying to follow conversations that bounce back and forth, so I've decided to try the convention that many others seem to use, aggregation of messages on either your talk page or my talk page. If the conversation is about an article I will try to aggregate on the article's talk page.

  • If the conversation is on your talk page or an article talk page, I will watch it.
  • If the conversation is on my talk page or an article talk page and I think that you may not be watching it, I will link to it in a note on your talk page, or in the edit summary of an empty edit. But if you start a thread here, please watch it.

I may mess up, don't worry, I'll find it eventually. Ping me if you really need to.

please note this is a personal preference rather than a matter of site policy

(From User:John/Pooh policy)

Deleted Article Reappears[edit]

Evening, last year I messaged you regarding an article that appeared on Wikipedia on spurious grounds. Within about 48 hours, the article was deleted. The articles was: Ryder Ripps; and it is back. I provided a number of points as to why I believed this page was not notable, which has been deleted. I don't know if that can still be accessed as it was deleted with the page:

I don't want to go through all the points again, in the case my previous points cannot be retrieved. But in summary, the original Ryder Ripps page was created by the subject, Ryder Ripps. It was created with a slew of other articles relating to the subject, i.e. sites he created and his father. These were all deleted, but it the Ryder Ripps page itself survived; being deleted or suggested for deletion several times.

The page still reads like it has been composed by the subject, or affiliate, as a vanity page, i.e. "several well-known internet institutions like Internet Archeology," Both of those sites have an Alexa Rank in the range of 600,000, which is probably something like 200-400 visits / day each. They are not institutions, they are not well known and they are not notable.

Below is a copy of my original message re. the article:

Evening, around 18 months ago I forwarded an issue to your attention regarding content that needed removing which you dealt with swiftly. I have identified a vanity biogaraphy on WP; that in my opinion really shouldn't be here. The article is: Ryder Ripps. If you look into the history, it seems fairly obvious the page was created by the subject of the article. I suggested the article for deletion, but it was quickly removed by an IP with no history, with the note: "Removing notability concern. Ripps has more than enough established references including New York Times and PBS." I've created some bullet-points on the nature of the article and its subject: The IP the removed the article was from New York, where the subject lives.

--Hierarchypedia (talk) 16:23, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, I will have a look this evening. --John (talk) 17:54, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
I removed a couple of poor sources from it but it seems to me to pass notability. If you disagree, take it to AfD. --John (talk) 06:29, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

The Signpost: 29 April 2015[edit]


Maybe you should unblock TQ now.— Preceding unsigned comment added by User:I am. furhan. (talkcontribs)

Why? --John (talk) 15:36, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
I've restored User:Tetra quark's talk page access. All they need to do to get unblocked is to post a reasonable unblock request that an admin will find acceptable. Indefinite doesn't have to mean forever but their behaviour was disruptive and they had become a net negative to the project. If they can demonstrate that they will improve their behaviour, there is no harm in an unblock. --John (talk) 21:09, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Block request of Alskoj[edit]

John, can you please block user:Alskoj as he/she is vandalizing numerous pages. Thanks, Isambard Kingdom (talk) 17:14, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Done. --John (talk) 17:22, 3 May 2015 (UTC)


If I recall correctly you posted a stimulating and wise essay about "however" somewhere on WP, but I can't find it. Can you point me in the right direction, please, if I am not delusional about the existence of the page? Tim riley talk 20:28, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Certainly, it's at User:John/however. My efforts to move it into Wikipedia essay space were thwarted I think, but I think WP:WTA was amended slightly to take it into account, if I recall correctly. --John (talk) 20:30, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Good! Thank you for that. I shall go and reread, with a view to referring an editor or two to it. Tim riley talk 20:43, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Pleasure to be of help. --John (talk) 20:50, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Persistent disruptive editing by QuackGuru[edit]

John, I hope all is well with you! I'm sorry to have to come and ask your assistance again, but I'm afraid I must. Yesterday, an edit war ensued over the neutrality of the lede on Acupuncture and instead of edit war I placed a POV template tag to the lede and added a section on the talk page. The tag says clearly not to remove it until disputes have been resolved, but QuackGuru ignored it and removed it anyway. I began a section and listed the problems on the talk page, per policy, and QuackGuru chose to ignore it as well removing the tag without justification, ignoring the tag's template message, and ignoring the talk page. If this was the first time he has done this, I wouldn't be here, but I had been researching QuackGuru's behavior a few weeks ago and found that he has a long history of removing the POV tag, quickly, before disputes have been resolved: such as 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 and so on. He does this same thing on other articles too like this I have always thought the purpose of the pov template was to let other editors know there is a neutrality dispute (and there clearly is) so that we can attract other, hopefully neutral, editors to the conversation. When the tag is inappropriately and continually removed, we will only ever have a small group of editors ever weighing the issues. Knowing QuackGuru's long history of disruptive tag removal, I believe the reason he removes it continually is that he only wants a small group of editors on the article, and for the heat of the battleground to prevail over the light of reasoned discourse. Because editors like QuackGuru are rarely blocked or topic banned, they are free to edit war and disrupt with impunity while other editors, such as myself, are forced to stand aside because we choose to adhere to policies.

To illustrate the point that QuackGuru is beyond correcting his own behavior, QuackGuru was only recently told by AdjWilley that something needs to change and had suggested that QuackGuru limit himself to a 1RR or a BRD cycle, which QuackGuru is obviously ignoring as well. He reverted a lot of material yesterday, not just the tag I added, and never appeared on the talk page to discuss any of it. If something needs to change, and QuackGuru is unwilling to do it, what is left? A few months ago, you had told me that we should revisit this situation possibly after Easter. Is it a good time? I wouldn't even come here, John, I would go straight to Arbcom if it weren't for the fact that I have my own family situation to deal with which makes it difficult to give the necessary time ArbCom requires. Frankly, even though you told me to come to you after Easter, I would rather not come here to ask anything of you because QG has preemptively accused you of being an involved admin. It's obvious he did this only because he knows you are one of the few good admins who both knows his game and refuses to think of him as a necessary evil and the only threat to his ability to edit freely. Then again, I also think most admins don't want to get involved with him because he sends them the same subtle, preemptive threats as well, like he did to Shii here in order to justify ignoring Shii's consus reading and edit against it with impunity. Anywho, is this something you would like to look at now? If not, do you have any suggestions of action I could take? I don't know of many good admins who are as well versed in QuackGuru's long history of bad behavior as you, and I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to take the necessary action against QuackGuru given the farce he has accused you of in order to tie your hands, but I know one way or another his bad behavior on the acupuncture article has to stop and QuackGuru has proven he won't be the one to stop himself. LesVegas (talk) 19:54, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Just as an update, as soon as I posted here, QuackGuru added this to the talk page, only minutes later. Is your talk page in his watchlist? LesVegas (talk) 20:33, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
Oh dear. I took a quick look and the page is protected with discussion on the talk page. I am sorry this issue has arisen again. It needs to be addressed. We cannot go on like this. I will try to think in the next 24 hours of something more substantive to propose. --John (talk) 21:32, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
Thank you very much John! LesVegas (talk) 21:52, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
OK, this is too funny not to share it, but I'm glad I caught it so that you wouldn't think I was misleading you about a claim I made. If anyone but QuackGuru did this I would chalk it up as a funny coincidence, but not only did QuackGuru suddenly start posting at the Acupuncture talk POV-Lede section just minutes after I came here claiming that he wasn't, he also archived his talk page, also coincidentally just minutes after I posted a link to it here. So that link in my original post showing you where Adjwilley told QuackGuru "something needs to change" doesn't work. It's essentially a dead link now because QuackGuru deleted it. Fortunately, it's after Easter which means it can be resurrected so in case you weren't able to see it before QuackGuru deleted it, here is the text in full, removed 5 minutes after I posted here. Isn't it amusing how QuackGuru can turn even the most boring edits into one big fun WP: GAME? LesVegas (talk) 23:44, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
@LesVegas, undoubtedly QuackGuru has this page on their watchlist. My guess is that the talk page post on Acupuncture was a minor correction of an oversight, and the user talk page archive was QG's way of letting you know that they are aware of this conversation without actually having to say anything here. (In a way that is a good thing...focusing on content over user talk page banter is part of what I was asking for.) On the acupuncture page, yes there was a huge edit war, but if you actually start counting reverts you'll find that QG only had 2...maybe 3 depending on how much of a wikilawer the counter is. There are several other users that made more reverts than that. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:22, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
Adjwilley, thanks for paying attention to this matter and I wish I could assume good faith to the extent you can and really believe it was a good natured signal, but unfortunately I have edited with QuackGuru for some time now. Im afraid I have to disagree about the count, QuackGuru had 4 reverts at least, I counted them all and if you're interested I will show you each one. Not only that, it wasn't a BRD cycle either. No discussion whatsoever on this topic until I minutes after I posted on John's page. Other editors had 4 reverts too, (Kww) and you know, it's frustrating when you adhere to policies and nobody else does. But what really takes the cake, for me, wasn't the fact that QG edit warred, or even that he removed an entire section without discussion or consensus or even that he edit warred a large number of high quality MEDRS sources out of the article, actually calling them "low quality", it's the fact that he removed a POV tag which says "don't remove until the disputes have been resolved" off the article, and he has done it again and again. How are we supposed to attract new editors if tags like this are continually removed? How are we supposed to have any semblance of decorum on the article if editors continually and flagrantly ignore rules? LesVegas (talk) 02:04, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
Consecutive edits usually don't count as reverts. Though QG made a bunch of very bold removals, they were clustered into two groups, and only interrupted by a bot edit and a user's null-edit (revert then self-revert). I might have overlooked something, but I don't think it's worth talking about at this point because it's not going to change anything. The article is protected and everybody's hands were dirty. Nobody's getting blocked this time around.

I'm probably not the one you want to talk with about the utility of article maintenance tags. You might be able to guess my feelings about them by looking at my user page :-). ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:24, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, the reverts were of material that was added less than 24 hours before. What QuackGuru usually does is make several edits, like tagging something first, then removes it. It's much harder to detect that way. He rarely just presses the "undo" button. Things like this are why we have discretionary sanctions, because admins who are familiar with this sort of GAMEy behavior can easily topic ban editors who have patterns like this. Oftentimes, ArbCom has a hard time deciphering the policy violations, just as you are with the reverts. And it's not your fault, QuackGuru is just really good at covering his tracks sometimes. But my biggest point isn't even the large edit war that ensued yesterday. It's that QG removed a tag that clearly says not to remove it, and has done this over and over again. Someone has to put a stop to this. We need new editors on the article, but we will never get them if QG continually removes the very templates that notify new editors of a dispute and goes unpunished. LesVegas (talk) 03:19, 5 May 2015 (UTC)