User talk:John Hill

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Sadao Nakajima[edit]

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Hello, John Hill. You have new messages at Michitaro's talk page.
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TB[edit]

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Hello, John Hill. You have new messages at Talk:Tibetan culture.
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Any reason for removing the recently added section on talk page of history of Christianity in India?[edit]

Can you tell me genuinely that why did you remove that section from history of Christianity in India talk page? Was it in any way violating any Wikipedia rules? Or you are one of those fundamentalist Christians who want to prove Christianity reached India by 52 AD while there is no evidence for it?

And why should Tibet be free? Why not Alaska and Hawaii be free? You should know that days of western supremacy are now going down fast and there is no need for the non-western world to accept biased western point of view of looking at things. Time has come to question each and everything which western people have imposed on others. We also question American intervention in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, role of US govt in creating ISIS and atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki because we do not believe the American story that it was necessary to stop the war because the war ended anyway.

Dahuting Tomb murals, Chinese Eastern Han period (25-220 AD)[edit]

I just uploaded all of these to Wikimedia! And have used them in several articles thus far.

The Dahuting Tomb (Chinese: 打虎亭汉墓, Pinyin: Dahuting Han mu) of the late Eastern Han Dynasty (25-220 AD), located in Zhengzhou, Henan province, China, was excavated in 1960-1961 and contains vault-arched burial chambers decorated with murals showing scenes of daily life, with banquet scenes, dancers with musicians playing, court women flaunting their hairstyles, war chariots and cavalry riding to battle, mythological scenes with creatures such as dragons, etc. Pericles of AthensTalk 14:18, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

In regards to one of the woman in the first row, is that a glass cup she's holding? That's interesting, considering how prized Roman glass was in Han China at the time, considered a foreign luxury item. Pericles of AthensTalk 14:18, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Reply[edit]

Dear Pericles: Thank you so very much for posting these magnificent illustrations. I had not seen photos of the Dahuting murals before - so they are a real treat.

As to whether the woman in the second photo is holding a glass vessel is of great interest because, if it can be determined that it was of glass, it would almost certainly be representing an imported item as the Chinese were not producing such items in glass at this early period. However, at first glance, it looks to me similar to pottery vessels of Chinese design that I have seen, but I am certainly no expert on such matters.

I have, therefore, written to a colleague and friend who is far more knowledgeable about such things for his opinion, or, whether he could suggest someone else to contact. When I hear back I will let you know what he says.

Again, many thanks for such a beautiful gallery of fascinating images - I will download them all to my computer so I can examine them in detail more easily. With my very best wishes, John Hill (talk) 21:01, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Pericles' response[edit]

John,

Thanks for the surprisingly wonderful reply! I assumed we were just going to have some fun idle conversation; I had no idea any of my normal Wikimedia stuff was going to spur a serious academic investigation.

Firstly, you may certainly use the images! I do not own them; they are public domain, by virtue of being flat 2-dimensional photographic representations of ancient artwork, with expired ownership (that only lasts 70 years in the US, and by all other accounts 100 years into the past...I think it's fairly safe to say the arists of the Eastern Han period have lost their claim to copyright). Only photographs of 3-dimensional ancient artwork have a valid claim by the photographer as being his or her licensed property. So by all means, use these images to your heart's content! They can also be found on the web if you do a Google Image search for "Dahuting Tomb" (with even better results if you search for it in Chinese with "打虎亭汉墓"). Google Books doesn't seem to be of much use, sadly (as I've already discovered), but for what it's worth, Baidu.com has an article in Chinese that seems to dive into the topic: you can read it here. Sadly I was unable to find higher-resolution images, so unfortunately you'll have to make do with them unless you can find better photographic work for the inside of the Dahuting Tomb.

In either case, I'm also no expert in Chinese ceramics, but I've seen enough images of Chinese ceramics to see how you're making the comparison (even though none of these objects seem as small or scaled down as the one the woman is precariously holding):

However, you'll notice that most of these ceramic vases imitate earlier bronze ones of the Zhou dynasty, even with the little looped handles on the sides; the object held by the woman in the Dahuting Mural lacks these features altogether. Also, it might be because the paint has faded over the centuries, but the object held by the woman in the mural above does seem to have a transparent quality to it. Or perhaps I'm wrong; perhaps it's a smooth early celadon piece decorated with white paint (given how there are a good amount of finely-painted Han-era Chinese ceramic vessels). It is at this impasse where the input of a real art historian is critical, because I am far from being one!

I don't think I can say the same about jade drinking vessels of the Han period, though. For instance, they tend to have these shapes, with lids, some with handles, ribbed decorations, certainly nothing like the ceramics above:

I can, however, easily assert that I've seen endless varities of Roman glasswares that look nearly identical to the piece the woman is holding in that painting. For instance:

Also, I wouldn't mind emailing and sharing with you my email address, yet I don't know how much good that's going to do you or your esteemed colleagues. I'm just a simple PhD student, a peon if you will, and I'm studying a radically different academic subject (chronicles and historiographical literature of late medieval England and France). I wouldn't have any useful input for or ability to foster worthwhile dialogue with accredited experts in the field of sinology, international trade, art history, etc. I'm just excited by the prospect that I may have laid the groundwork for a serious discussion among academics who know what they're doing and can perform an exhaustive analysis of the Han artwork above and Roman glasswares more generally (while having access to databases and academic journals, especially in Chinese, that I do not possess). I honestly wasn't expecting all of that!

Notice how the woman in the Dahuting mural is holding that object effortlessly by the tip of her fingers, indicating perhaps a very lightweight object like a glassware. I would assume that ceramic vases of similar size would be a bit heavier. The artist also seems to be making a point in featuring this particular item, giving it special prominence. This is clearly a well-to-do Eastern Han woman in fancy hanfu attire. Would she be flaunting a normal ceramic vase? Or is it more likely that an exotic Western item was worthy of being painted in such a way? To demonstrate her wealth and social standing.

It might be outdated, but you could have a look at the following source for a cursory investigation into the handful of Roman glasswares found in Chinese archaeological sites and Han tombs:

  • An, Jiayao. (2002). "When Glass Was Treasured in China," in Annette L. Juliano and Judith A. Lerner (eds), Silk Road Studies VII: Nomads, Traders, and Holy Men Along China's Silk Road, 79–94. Turnhout: Brepols Publishers. ISBN 2503521789.

I compiled notes from this source (quoting it verbatim) long ago in my Sandbox page, which you can see by following the link. I did so when I was in the process of submitting the article on the Han dynasty as a featured article candidate. That was back when I was actually regularly reading a bunch of stuff about Chinese history, and when I was way more active on Wikipedia (my two-year stint in the Peace Corps and English-teaching in Kyrgyzstan largely put an end to that). In either case my interests have long ago shifted to medievalism and Western Europe, so I'm afraid that you and I belong to two radically different fields of study. If you ever want to know stuff about medieval English chronicles, then I'm your go-to guy! Sort of. Maybe. In the near future! After my PhD thesis is complete. Lol.

Cheers. Pericles of AthensTalk 03:08, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

PS: User:MisterCake was kind enough to point out on his talk page that the horn instrument being played by the man in the banquet scene on the bottom looks quite similar to a Greco-Roman salpinx. This would seem to precede the double-reed horn musical instrument from Iranian-speaking Central Asia known as the Suona, which was apparently used in China from the Jin Dynasty (265-420 AD) onwards. Perhaps that date could be pushed back a few decades to the end of Eastern Han! For a fuller image of that particular banquet scene, look here: Pericles of AthensTalk 03:33, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Kind regards, Pericles of AthensTalk 03:33, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Sorry (lol), one last final thought. Keep in mind these are hardly the only colorful painted images we have from the Han showing people wearing Hanfu silk robes (we also have some sculptures, which are shown below at the end): Pericles of AthensTalk 04:19, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

...and you can see how the tradition of painting had evolved from the previous Zhou dynasty period:

Talk to you soon! Pericles of AthensTalk 05:04, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Just found this![edit]

I can't believe I had to find something this amazing on a stupid blog from Sina Weibo. Look at these images of Dahuting Tomb in Zhengzhou, Henan! Look how you progress down the stairway into the tomb through the barrel-arched vault and through arched doorways, with stone doors still intact and bearing fanciful reliefs. And then finally, BAM! The burial chamber with all the murals I've shown above and more! It's a shame these pictures have so much glare, due to the protective glass frames mounted against the murals. I'm afraid it would be impossible to upload these images to Wikimedia Commons, because they are shot at angles that produce 3-dimensional views of the tomb's interior. For what it's worth, look at these two in particular: here and here. I hope you and your colleagues find these useful! Pericles of AthensTalk 05:54, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

WOW! What a treat! Thanks you so much for EVERYTHING! You have really gone to so much trouble - I am very grateful. I haven't been able yet to go through it all carefully - nor have I heard back again from my friend yet (though I did write to notify him of your last postings here and the intriguing comment from "MisterCake").
I am very busy here at the moment - so I may need a day or so before I can get back to it all. I am jealous of your time in Kyrgyzstan - I always wanted to travel more in the Stans but, unfortunately, I am past my travelling days now - so I can only hope that reincarnation is real and that I will come back as a human and not a cockroach as one "friend" predicted! :) .
I hope I am not distracting you too much from your PhD studies. A million thanks once again.
All my very best wishes, John Hill (talk) 07:07, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
No problem, take your time! Let's hope that you and I both become reincarnated as something other than cockroaches. ;) Pericles of AthensTalk 14:46, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

These were just uploaded![edit]

Have a look! They're from a Western Han tomb in Xi'an (Chang'an), Shaanxi, from the Xi'an University of Technology: Pericles of AthensTalk 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

I sent you an email as you requested. Cheers. Pericles of AthensTalk 14:25, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open![edit]

Scale of justice 2.svg Hello, John Hill. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. Mdann52 (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Nomination of Gö Lotsawa for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Gö Lotsawa is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gö Lotsawa until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Si Trew (talk) 05:14, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

  • Sorry about that, I meant to nominate the redirect at Goe Lotsawa, not the article. I've tried to remove the nomination at AfD. Si Trew (talk) 05:16, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

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Let's reduce the environmental impact of the Wikimedia movement![edit]

Hi John Hill, please allow me to get in touch with you because you have stated sympathy with environmental causes on your user page. I would like to invite you to check out the Environmental impact project page on Meta, where I am trying to create some momentum to reduce the environmental impact of the Wikimedia movement. My first goal is to have all the Wikimedia servers run on renewable energy. Maybe you could show your support for this project as well by adding your signature? Thank you, --Gnom (talk) 19:47, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for contacting me about this important issue. I am very happy to support your excellent initiative. My email address is: ... John Hill (talk) 20:59, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Great, thanks! --Gnom (talk) 21:51, 15 January 2017 (UTC)