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User talk:Joshua Jonathan

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"The avalanche was down,
the hillside swept bare behind it;
the last echoes died on the white slopes;
the new mount glittered and lay still in the silent valley."
Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited
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Hanuman Jayanti[edit]

Greetings, JJ, it's been a while. I came across Hanuman Jayanti today. The page is in terrible shape. I'm out of my depth; can this be salvaged? Vanamonde (talk) 11:19, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

R1a map[edit]

Anatole Klyosov is a pseudoscientist. Better to restore your oldest revision of map. --Wario-Man (talk) 08:44, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks; I understand. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:46, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

The Pishachas and the Magadhans[edit]

First, on the Pishachas, note:

If there is any truth at the bottom of this legend [of Nilamata Purana], the Piśācas must have been hardy northerners, accustomed to cold. At the present day the country to the north of Kashmir, with Gilgit for its centre, is inhabited by Shins (Dards), and the legend points to a long contest between them and the 'men' — i.e., immigrants from India—for the possession of the Happy Valley. This entirely accords with the linguistic conditions at the present day. The language of the Shins, or Shina, is one of those which Pischel has connected with Paiśāacī. The Kashmiri language itself, though in the main Indian in character, has at its base a considerable Shina vocabulary. The commonest words, such as those for 'father,' 'mother,' 'I,' 'thou,' are of Shina, not Indian, origin.[1]

So, if Kashmiri has this mixture of Dardic and Sanskrit, it gives some support to the contention of the Nilamata Purana that the Pishachas (Dards) used to swoop down on the valley during the winter months.

According to Daśarūpa 2, 60 the Piśāca or Māgadha language is especially spoken by the Piśācas, the people of lowly origin etc. According to Sarasvatik.... P. the language of the Pisāca; Bhojadeva... forbids the use of pure P. by high class characters: ... High characters, who do not appear in the highest roles, according to Sarasvatik. 58, 15, speak in a language that is Sanskrit and Paiśāci at the same time, by means of the popular play of words bhāṣāśleṣa, which is comparatively easier in Paiśāci than in any other Prākrit dialect inasmuch as P., of all the Pkt. dialects, is most akin to Sanskrit.[2]

So Paishachi and Magadha were similar, and they were similar to Sanskrit, but dissimilar to others Prakrits (Indianised variants of Sanskrit, also characterised as deshyas or local languages, by Vararuchi).

Pischel also mentions Panchala and Shaurasena versions of Paishachi. These are the central Himalayan regions. So, I am getting more convinced that these "Pishachas" came through the Himalayan passes, and not through the Arghandab like the Vedic Aryans.

But the crazy thing is that these people didn't call themselves 'men' (descendants of Manu), even though they spoke practically the same language! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:12, 17 June 2018 (UTC)


  1. ^ Grierson, George Abraham (1906), The Pisaca Languages of North-Western India, London: The Royal Asiatic Society, p. 2 
  2. ^ Pischel, Richard (1981), A Grammar of the Prākrit Languages, Motilal Banarsidass Publ., paragraph 27 (p. 33-35), ISBN 978-81-208-1680-0 

On Reverts to Sōtō[edit]

I believe the changes I made to the Soto Zen page were constructive. Generally, I believe it is important to put information on Soto Zen in an easy to digest, accurate form that is understandable to the western mind. I chose to delete small portions that were inaccurate and add more content. In particular, the content I added to the section 'spread in the western world' I believe will be helpful to those practicing in the West. I'd be very grateful for your willingness to inform me of what you think is not constructive and hope we can come to an agreement. I am new to Wikipedia and realize I may be making mistakes in how things are done. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Justsitting (talkcontribs) 23:02, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

You added/edited the following:
  • diff added an WP:UNDUE and WP:PUFFERY amount of information on one, minor teacher;
  • diff was miinor indeed;
  • diff gives undue weight to Shasta Abbey terminology, and incorrectly equates zazen with shikantaza.
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
I agree, there is too much information on Rev. Master Jiyu; I have shortened it appropriately.
Zazen and Shikantaza are two descriptions of the same practice, they even reference each other on their respective pages.
The term "Serene Reflection Meditation" is not "Shasta Abbey terminology", but an appropriate english translation of the practice of shikantaza or zazen, which is the central focus of the Soto Zen sect. This article may be helpful in understanding the translation of the chinese term "mo chao". Tanka Shijun is an ancestor of the Soto Zen tradition who used this term to distinguish the meditation done in Soto from that of Rinzai. It is important to note that Buddhism is quite new to the Western world. As Buddhism spread from India to China to Japan each country translated the terms into their own language so that people could understand it clearly. As of yet, many Buddhist terms remain untranslated which causes confusion to Westerners. Since the term "Serene Reflection" has been in use in the Soto tradition for over 1000 years, it is more than appropriate on the Soto page.
I hope this back-and-forth editing is not seen to be "fighting". I just wish to provide information on the topic that users will be able to easily understand. Cheers!
Justsitting (talk) 22:08, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
  • The shortened info on Jiyu-Kenneth still gives undue weight to some minor aspects, while missing essential info; I've explained this at Talk:Sōtō#Jiyu-Kennett.
  • Shikantaza is the typical zazen practice of Soto; they're not exactly the same. From Zazen:
  • The precise meaning and method of zazen varies from school to school, but in general it can be regarded as a means of insight into the nature of existence. In the Japanese Rinzai school, zazen is usually associated with the study of koans. The Sōtō School of Japan, on the other hand, only rarely incorporates koans into zazen, preferring an approach where the mind has no object at all, known as shikantaza.

  • "Serene Reflection Meditation" is an obscure term; besides Shasta Abbey, I see it being used by the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives - which is the same club. See also Philip Wilkinson (2008), Eyewitness Companions: Religions, p.206: "The term Serene Reflection Meditation is being used by the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives for their form of Soto Zen."
  • "Silent illumination" is the more common term; your article also mentions this term (thanks, by the way, for the link). It's an interesting explanation, though "reflection," in the west, also means "to think about" - and taht's not what's being meant here! Thus, there is an ambiguity here.
  • The term "mo chao" has not been untranslated; the common translation is "silent illumination." And the terms Sōtō Zen and shikantaza usually are not translated; their meaning is well-known. To call Sōtō the "Silent Reflection Meditation" school is confusing.
  • You refer to Tanka Shijun; yet, Koten Benson refers to Wanshi Shokaku (1091–1157), giving Garma C.C. Chang (1959), The Practice of Zen, as a source, while Taigen Dan Leighton refers to Tiāntóng Rújìng.
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:41, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

On Spamming Shasta Abbey[edit]

It is not my intention to spam the Shasta Abbey Page, I just wanted to add more information and cite the information on the page. Would you prefer I only cite one time for a source? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Justsitting (talkcontribs) 23:02, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Just don't give WP:UNDUE attention to one Zen-organisation. This includes changing "thumb" into "frame," which blows-up pictures to disporoportional sizes. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:13, 20 June 2018 (UTC)