User talk:Just plain Bill/Archive 1

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Archive 1 Archive 2


Hey Bill. I see you've rolled back my edits to the Fiddle page. I can understand deleting references to myself or to my bow as self-promotion, but the other edits? I don't understand why you felt it right to delete everything I added about shoulder rests, strings, sheet music, and other things.

Please explain.

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ningprofiles (talkcontribs) 02:58, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Adam, you see I kept the bits about non-European fiddles and solo fiddlers in groups of other instruments, as those seemed to be useful encyclopedic edits. I'll address the other stuff on Talk:Fiddle. __Just plain Bill (talk) 03:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Bill, my attention to the fiddle page was raised after reading the now deleted post on Fiddle World stating that the link to the Fiddle and Alternative Strings forum on wiki should be replaced with the Fiddle World link. The FAASF has been on wikipedia for many years and I take offence to Adam making this change to wiki. Adam is a businessman who will use whatever methods he can to promote his wares, as shown in the self-promotion you have already deleted from the Fiddle page. If you read through the Fiddle World forum you will also find it is a front for the promotion of Adam's goods through his wifes shop, Emily's Violins.

For your information, I run the not for profit Fiddle and Alternative Strings forum which I use to bring awareness of not only the fiddle, but the use of the violin in other musical styles. It has been running since 2002. Unfortunately, Adam was an advertiser on this forum until he went into liquidation, and we experienced issues with members not receiving goods from Adam that they had paid for - this was eventually, after many months, resolved - but of course I will always now have reservations.

I have made several reverts to the fiddle page to stop Adam persuing his self promotion, but I am concerned (and is so proven) that if I revert his edit he will simply re-revert the changes. As a compromise, the Fiddle page could have a 'Forum' section, but I would request that it is listed alphanumerically rather than Fiddle World (or Adam's Shop) being the first link. There is no point me editing his changes any further as he has proved he will just revert them again. Groundhog Day!

__madfiddler ([[User talk: 03:38, 28 March 2009 (GMT)

Cheers, Mark! I've got my eyes on this, and am somewhat familiar with Adam's history here, there, and some other places. We will see if something reasonable can be worked out. __Just plain Bill (talk) 03:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Violin bridge

Thanks for adding the picture. If you ever have the opportunity, it might be good to have a picture of the same bridge before and after fitting. — Kbh3rdtalk 18:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Violin article

I don't quite get what you put on the talk page of the 'There is a difference' part in the Violin article... Lady Nimue of the Lake 10:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

It's just a list of things that may apply to violinists or fiddlers, some more, some less, some not at all. I meant it as food for thought more than anything else. Just plain Bill 03:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


Hi Bill! I don't think we've come across each other on Wikipedia before. I made an edit here which I thought made more sense than what was there before. However, I was thinking that perhaps we both have different ideas of what we are talking about. What is the tuner you are referring to? --HappyCamper 04:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey there Happy Camper, I do think we have seen each other somewhere else... the tuners I'm talking about are the ones that screw into the holes of the tailpiece and hang out into the space between TP and bridge. That amounts to a fair chunk of metal for three or four of them. You say twisting the treble-side pegs isn't your thing; you've probably seen talk of Perfection planetary-geared pegs, and I can testify that they work fine, look like they'll last a long time. Be well, old bud, Just plain Bill 09:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Bugle Calls

Hi Bill - I noticed that you've done some edits to the Bugle Call article. I have the resources to create the music files for all the calls, but am looking to confirm that the calls themselves are in the public domain. I am pretty sure most are since they are traditional military calls, and very old. Can you tell me of a reference that would show me that the calls are PD ?

I don't have a paper copy in my hand just now, but the Upton reference in Bugle call is about 140 years old, putting the US calls pretty solidly in the public domain. Last time I saw a copy was in the 1970's when I lifted out a harmony part for "Retreat" to play at a Scout camp. If you found a gov't publication with the calls in it, that would relieve the copyright burden as well, I imagine. Just plain Bill 03:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

(Seems to me that further additions to this discussion will be more visible / useful on Jazzmanian's talk page.) __Just plain Bill 06:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Bill - It's been a while since I looked at the Bugle Calls page, but with Rememberance Day approaching, I had to head back to brush up for the ceremony. I noticed the JPG files I uploaded had been replaced with fuzzy PNG files, and read the reational behind the move. In an effort to improve the page, and move to the latest wiki standards I have uploaded two SVG files to the wiki commons for "Last Post" and "First Call", and replaced the Last Post JPG completely, while temporarily placing the First Call SVG right below the PNG.

I have my original 20 scores in AI files that I can port over to Inkscape and SVG - do you think this is a good plan ?

Thanks - jazzmanian oh - sorry - forgot to tag my last edit to the page (my bad) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jazzmanian (talkcontribs) 23:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, SVG is the way to go. With the tools available to me, Assembly's SVG took a lot of manual futzing, so the project went on my back burner. If you've got the time and inclination and an automated way to do it, please do. I'd suggest keeping the presentation of the calls no wider than Call to Quarters or the earlier First Call. I hope there's an easy way to split your SVG into two lines, for example. I'm guessing 600 pixels wide is a good maximum, and I bet there's some guidance to be found in the wikipedia about that. Soon as I have time to find it, I'll point it out, if you don't get there first... Thanks! __Just plain Bill 00:16, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Wiki suggested 600-800 wide, so I started at 700. Of course I could change that ? Tommorow I'll post one at 600 to see which one is better liked. - Jazzmanian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jazzmanian (talkcontribs) 00:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, that works for me. I need to go find an old CRT display and see how it renders on that before making any more grand pronouncements...  ;-) __Just plain Bill 00:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
different machine now, and here it is, the grand pronouncement: First Call (the SVG) falls off the edge of the CRT, and I have to scroll sideways to see all of it. I prefer making the viewer jump through fewer hoops, so I think 600 will be a better choice, but that's just one editor's opinion. Thanks again for stepping up to this task. __Just plain Bill 01:06, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Bill, I've uploaded all my completed (to date) bugle call scores. You can see them in my contributions in the wiki commons. I've added the many to the Bugle calls page, but for the moment did not remove the PNG files. I don't know if they should stay or if you would like to remove them as editor ?

P.S. is there an article on fitting a violin bridge to a violin ? I could really use such an article right now, as my son has a violin and I know the action should not be that high ! (I play guitar myself) —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not "the editor" of the article, just another contributor. (Naturally, I take an interest in it and watch what happens there.) Wikipedia policy encourages you to make the changes you see fit. If, heaven forbid, someone screws things up, the history is there, and things can be untangled, or at least reverted back to a previous state.
I'm not aware of a violin bridge-fitting article here, and there shouldn't really be one. If you go over to the Fiddle Forum and search or ask, I bet you'll get some useful info.
__Just plain Bill 00:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's something of interest I just discovered. The Boy Scouts page used to have some bad scans of calls (If I remember well enough), and now they have posted all the JPG versions I once uploaded to the wikipedia article. Cool ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's neat to see your stuff propagate like that. Way I see it is, open-source systems, wikis included, can give you your fifteen minutes of fame without having to deal with the paparazzi following you around. Kind of a cool feeling, isn't it? __Just plain Bill 02:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Where did that name you used for "_" come from?

"Sneaks"? That's a new one on me; wasn't even able to find anything from Google, nothing in the Hacker's Dictionary either. Not disputing, just curious: where does that usage come from? +ILike2BeAnonymous 23:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Came from an older ex-IBM guy who had a glass office by a cube farm where I once worked. I heard him use it in the late eighties, presume it came from earlier than that. __Just plain Bill 00:01, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Category:Violin makers and restorers

Hi Bill--I saw you want to merge Category:Violin makers and restorers with Category:Luthiers. I strongly agree that such a merge is appropriate. However, the tag that you have put on the categories is a tag for article merger, not for categories. For categories it is necessary to start a discussion on wikipedia:categories for discussion, which I am about to do for these categories. You might want to check the discussion out and participate in it. Cheers, LeSnail 15:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

On second thought, I have decided it would be better to have a Category:Bowed string instrument makers, and allow Category:Luthiers to contain that and Category:Guitar makers--I think it makes sense to keep those separate, even though there is some cross-over. LeSnail 16:03, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

usage of the term accidental

Thanks for your explanation. I adopted that usage from another editor, but hadn't looked into the usage otherwise. Accidental (music) construes the term more narrowly than some dictionaries. Hence, this edit. Is there a better word to use for sharp/flat/natural signs collectively? --Jtir (talk) 12:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I wondered that myself. English is a Germanic language, but I think that other editor's first language is actually German. For solid reliable depth of authority, I'll take the OED over dic dotcom any day, and it notes that, strictly speaking, they are signs of chromatic alteration used outside the key signature. I just call them "sharps and flats" when I need to talk about them as a group, with natural signs being understood as having full membership there. By comparison, "signs of chromatic alteration" seems unwieldy. (Lately I've been plowing through Lakoff's Women, Fire, & Dangerous Things which shows an empirically testable view of categories as being a human phenomenon not necessarily representing an underlying external "reality." We may not need to name sharps and flats collectively as a group, after all.) __Just plain Bill (talk) 23:30, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I like the OED too and wish it was online. is no substitute. Some of the entries at are from reputable collegiate dictionaries, so I don't hesitate to cite it. Unfortunately, it no longer includes M-W's collegiate, so that has to be cited separately (accidental). A collective name is an abbreviation, so it allows more efficient communication. --Jtir (talk) 13:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Indeed it would allow it, if there were such a term widely understood, even if only among specialists. Find me a suitable one- or two-syllable collective that rolls off the tongue as easily as "sharps and flats" and I'll happily adopt it; I like that kind of stuff. Even if it were as lengthy as "diacritoblivic," I'd use it, and with glee, but for now, for me, it's pretty solidly in with "unbroken items not requiring repair." __Just plain Bill (talk) 22:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
OK, it's three syllables. How does "sharps and flats and naturals" roll? :-) --Jtir (talk) 23:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
"Sharps & flats" takes up three syllables. If claims are to be made about efficiency, I want something smaller for the collective. ;-) I suppose "sharps and flats and naturals" might be needed when there was a point to emphasize with it, but no, it doesn't even come close to "sharps & flats" for ease of use. See Lakoff reference above; categories are creatures of the human mind, showing up in our speech and its patterns, not necessarily corresponding to a Platonic ideal or underlying regular grid of absolute reality. Human language is generated by humans, and is not an orthogonal mapping of words to discrete logical truths. __Just plain Bill (talk) 00:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
In the discussion of the circle of fifths image, some editors needed to concisely refer to the signs collectively. I now realize that the term "accidental" is ambiguous even in a musical context and would propose using the phrase "accidental sign" to mean "a prefixed sign indicating an accidental". --Jtir (talk) 17:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I can understand that, whether or not it's "standard nomenclature." Works for me... __Just plain Bill (talk) 17:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

use of the term sheet music

Showing my ignorance ... I was wondering what term you would use to describe generically images like this in a musical context. --Jtir (talk) 17:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Them are notes. Calling the image "notes" pretty well describes it, capturing the essence of its reason for being.
One could also call it a grand staff or a score, but a score, to me, means all the parts of a piece gathered together and presented in systems (groups of staves, often with connecting bar lines) as an overall view of a piece of ensemble music, e.g. for use by a conductor. A score is distinguished from parts; a part presents the line played or sung by an individual instrument or voice. "Sheet music" covers scores, parts, printed keyboard pieces, bound collections, and individual charts or lead sheets. I probably missed something there, but I bet you get the idea.
Could also call it a fragment or snippet or scale or gamut, or even sheet music, but I think that last one is a stretch. It's more of a fragment or example.
The German language makes a useful distinction for its speakers: "Musik" is music, and "Noten" are the spots on paper that musicians use to help them remember the music. Ask a German if he brought his music to the rehearsal, and he'll slap his chest and say, "Ja, right here!" __Just plain Bill (talk) 13:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, thanks. I looked at score and came to the same conclusion as you did. I like your suggestion for the term fragment, etc. It is certainly an example. Hyacinth calls them pictures or images. This statement from sheet music is what persuaded me to favor that term: "Use of the term "sheet" is intended to differentiate music on paper from an audio presentation, ..." and as you note the term covers a wide range of formats, and apparently covers electronic images. --Jtir (talk) 22:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Got it: commons:Category:Sheet music examples. --Jtir (talk) 22:42, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
When I'm being picky, I go a step further:
  • "Music" is live.
  • Graphic notation is "notes" or "sheet music."
  • Musical audio other than live music is "canned music."
(Not saying preservation is good or bad... but it is what it is.) <g> __Just plain Bill (talk) 22:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Please be more careful

When you made the edit at 22:37, 15 September 2008 to the Technical drawing page, you neglected to notice that the IP address you were reverting had, in previous edits, removed a large section of the page. I just now fixed it, 3 days later. Please be more careful in the future. Thanks! JesseW, the juggling janitor 21:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

hmmm. Missed that, all right. Often I go so far as to check anon vandals' contributions to see if they have any top edits elsewhere... sorry. __Just plain Bill (talk) 23:18, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Musical notation

Could you kindly explain this diff? It seems DareNotBecause blanked text on the discussion page, which you restored, and then blanked again. __Just plain Bill (talk) 01:47, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I reverted my revert because I wasn't sure if it was actually vandalism on first glance. On further investigation, it was indeed as I first thought, vandalism - but you had already taken care of it. Sorry, and thanks for taking care of it. Dreadstar 02:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, just checking... __Just plain Bill (talk) 02:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Fret hiccup

Thank's for politely catching the hiccup on the fret article. I cant believe that one slipped by me. Slysplace talk 12:27, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the work in the first place! These things happen... __Just plain Bill (talk) 17:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Bar Jonah

Stop trying to destroy the legacy of an American war hero. He died for our country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd consider stopping if you showed me believable documentation of what war, and what kind of "heroism" it was, which you haven't done. Smarten up; just your say-so is not enough. If you want something to stand, you need to make it verifiable. __Just plain Bill (talk) 19:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Bar Jonah was a good man who's reputation is being smeared by liberals such as yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

So you say. Without believable backup, you have no credibility. He died in jail, convicted of some things, and accused of worse. "Liberal?" heh. __Just plain Bill (talk) 20:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Please refrain from any more of your Judaism. Bar Jonah was the son of God and brother of Jesus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:30, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Judaism? No comment. Thanks for your input, but I don't see it as relevant. __Just plain Bill (talk) 20:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

How can we get this child molester loving moron banned for good from here? If you need help getting him banned for good let me know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seattlehawk94 (talkcontribs) 09:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the moral support! The anon editor has been using various IPs mostly from Lowell or sometimes Dracut, Massachusetts. I'm taking a long-term view here, letting it ride for now. __Just plain Bill (talk) 13:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Almost time to ban the freak who's in love with the pervert? It's ridden, months later dude is still posting stuff and talking s--- about you over on that sicko's page....Time to '86 his sorry ass.. --seattlehawk94 (talk) 15:07, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

He's back, after a layoff, but it's tough to ban someone who comes in from various IP's. I still don't mind putting up with low-level noise, but if the rate of vandalism starts really getting in the way, we could see about trying to get the page protected. It's been good to see that there are other eyes on the case lately besides yours and mine. __Just plain Bill (talk) 16:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm from Montana and that perv is a black mark on the whole state and alot of us wish we could've had the chance to do some real frontier "justice" on his sorry ass..Too see this little pervert lover posting crap about him being a "hero" sickens me....Personally I wish he'd come to Montana and say that in public....I don't even think a cop would stop what would happen to him....The fact he's playing that crap and bringing the fight to people like you because you won't tolerate it pisses me the *@#& off....I'll keep a watch as long as that "person" (used very loosely) keeps up his BS...--seattlehawk94 (talk) 22:11, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I think may be heading for another block if they keep it up. __Just plain Bill (talk) 02:12, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Our old pal edited my talk page, another guy's talk page, and the Montana Project page with his love for that dead fat POS...I dunno how to get a block going but I thought I'd let you know...--seattlehawk94 (talk) 09:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Nathaniel Bar-Jonah

Ambox warning pn.svg

An article that you have been involved in editing, Nathaniel Bar-Jonah, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nathaniel Bar-Jonah. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 20:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Liz Carroll (musician)

Ambox warning pn.svg

A tag has been placed on Liz Carroll (musician) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. Chris (talk) 05:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

  • No probs. I looked at your contributions when I tagged it, and it seemed like you were a longstanding good editor, so I was a bit puzzled about the article. It had been there a few days, and I really don't think it did assert notability before (though it certainly does now); it just seemed a bit odd that it had been left in a state where it was likely to get speedied. Anyhow, no harm done. Cheers, Chris. Chris (talk) 07:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

First call

Hi, I added the category because I thought it would make the article easier to find. I had a hard time navigating to the article myself, not knowing the name of the tune but just that it was always played before a race event. And as I searched I landed on the sporting songs category, which does include fanfares and chants, e.g. Charge (fanfare) and Here We Go (song), so I kind of expected to find it there. Your point is taken; it's not a proper song; but its a hard article to find for someone that doesn't know the title a priori. —Kymacpherson (talk) 06:08, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't know whether I just fixed it or made it more complicated. There is now a subcategory [[Category:Sporting tunes]] Perhaps there should be a category for fanfares? Mulling it over... __Just plain Bill (talk) 01:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, would you consider First call a fanfare, in the context of a race? Maybe fanfare vs song would be a clearer distinction than tune vs song. Thanks for the effort, I think it's an improvement to have this tune included, even if it means complicating the taxonomy. The sheet music looks really good too, nice work! —Kymacpherson (talk) 15:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. Might just as well call it a fanfare in that context. I debated that with me, myself and the other one before making that change. Considering adding a category for fanfares as such, but not sure how to connect that with everything else here, so for now I think I'll move Sporting tunes to Sporting fanfares, since that makes such good sense. When I get a spare tick, I'll put up some notes for Charge (fanfare) as well. Cheers, __Just plain Bill (talk) 15:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Art of Violin Playing

Sorry about not citing it sooner. I have been busy lately. edMarkViolinistDrop me a line 18:13, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Wikipedia is a work in progress. __Just plain Bill (talk) 03:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikiproject Violin

Well, if I do get this thing going, I was wondering if you would be willing to be an "assistant coordinator"? I have seen you around on many violin related pages, and I feel that you would be an invaluable asset. edMarkViolinistDrop me a line 16:29, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, did a bit of rewriting and reorganization of Violin in my early Wikipedia involvement; in fact it's what lured me into the 'pedia in the first place. I appreciate the invitation, but I'm happiest making individual contributions, rather than coordinating or facilitating. More into fixing stuff directly here, so kindly consider me just another pair of eyes on the project. I will be watching. __Just plain Bill (talk) 11:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

re: Edit Summary

I looked back at the Fact page and saw an edit summary that read: "snails are animals, and cannot jump" - I laughed, then said huh?, then laughed again, and now my brain is starting to hurt. Definitely made me think, and sometimes thinking gets me in trouble. ;) — Ched (talk) 17:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I was making an effort not to bite a newcomer there, but one of the "facts" on the deleted list said something like "elephants are the only animals that can't jump." __Just plain Bill (talk) 00:53, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Sheet bend heads-up

Hi, Bill. Not here to start a discussion. (Yes, I read your "I'll reply here if...," advisory at the head of this page. I'm bending your rule in good faith.) Just to say a polite thanks for being a gentleman (and, I'll volunteer, scholar, if you can speak half the languages you claim, including the ability you assert to converse inteligibly with English speakers from the British Isles, often no mean feat I have found) taking up your concern over the Weaver's Knot reference on the Sheet Bend talk page instead of just summarily re-inserting it. A classy move. See you there. Wikiuser100 (talk) 01:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to barge in...

Sorry. I realise you deleted my link to my forum (technological singularity), due to absence of members and posts. The point of linking it on wikipedia was for the community to (hopefully) grow. If you're really against it, then fine, I was just hoping for the place to grow and get members from that. Thanks, Skyblaze webmaster —Preceding unsigned comment added by MWithnall (talkcontribs) 18:53, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your responce. Ok, you've got a good point - I'm in the wrong. Any suggestions on how to get some member in the first place? I may have two or three soon, but I can't see any more coming easily. Fancy joining? (joke) Skyblaze —Preceding unsigned comment added by MWithnall (talkcontribs) 17:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Sign of Appreciation

As a sign of appreciation for your work, I'd like to give you this award. I wasn't sure where to put it so please move it to wherever you like. OutOfTimer Wanna chat? 17:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Music barnstar.png The Music Barnstar
Just plain Bill was awarded this Music Barnstar for his superior graphic design of The Circle of Fiths. Clearly the best design ever created and an outstanding contribution to Wikipedia. It is an honour to have people like you here. Thank you. OutOfTimer Wanna chat? 17:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Cheers! I had a lot of help bringing that image to its present state. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 22:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


Bill, looking at your talk page I think it should be a pint of whisky I owe you, especially with that award. Anyhow, I dint recognise the music you mentioned. Have you any idea where I can find it? --SquidSix (talk) 10:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC) p.s.This is now my moniker, once I'd finally worked out how to use this site.

After a quick search on Google it wasn't hard to find. Not quite my style, but interesting, and I see what you were getting at with someone playing it like a maths equation, just wunt work.--SquidSix (talk) 11:38, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it's fun to hear how different players go at the "same" tune. By now you've parbly come across some of the sites linked in Abc_notation#ABC_Tune_Collections. Be well! __ Just plain Bill (talk) 14:57, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


Gee Mr.Bill you can play alot of stringed instruments! Can you play the Double Bass? Just curious, because I play the piano. User:BennyK95 21:15, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Nope, no standup bass for me, but I know one or two guys that do. Need to put in more cello time, been missing that. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 12:26, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you could practice Suite No. 1 in G major, BWV 1007 a.k.a Suite for Unaccompanied Cello by J.S.Bach - BennyK95 - Talk 23:31, October 2009 (UTC)

That's the one with the prelude that seems to stand for "cello music" everywhere in film and video. ;-) I like them all... got discs by Casals, Ma, and Bylsma to listen to; just now I enjoy hearing the C major suite especially. My current goal is being able to use a cello for figured bass in contemporary traditional music, if that's not too much of an oxymoron. Jigs, reels, strathspeys, slow airs, that kind of thing. I'm fond of the work of Natalie Haas with Alasdair Fraser in that regard. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 13:28, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

AmE and BrE

Re: White cane Hmmm that's odd, I edit with a British dictionary and it did not catch it. My apologies. ~ Vince Navarro(t/c) 15:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


Thanks for correcting it, but I wonder if you could make one small change; it shows the arrow curving to the side after leaving the bow, and this could be confusing. The point is that contact with the bow deflects the arrow. Could you redo the image to show a straight path after launch? Richard Keatinge (talk) 08:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Good thing you caught me before I fixed it so the too-floppy arrow's line curved to match the others. I should have time to attend to that in the next few dozen hours... __ Just plain Bill (talk) 16:40, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Weird. Uploading the svg with the lines straighened made the arrowheads point sideways. I edited the file again at my machine, wiping the lines and starting fresh. It looks OK here now. You may notice a difference in the dash style; if that's too pale as you view it, I can make them a bit darker. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 23:53, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


Bill, what part of speech is astern in the expression line astern? Should we include that as well? Move this to the discussion page there if you want, I'll watch both. Eric talk 16:37, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Now that I see your addition of line astern, I'd have to say it is an adverb there. I found a differing definition here: Line_of_battle#Footnotes. I'm no expert, but that seems more in line with my sense of the term (mostly from reading Patrick O'Brian novels, I'll admit). Eric talk 16:50, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Quick wictionary check tells me a case could be made for it being an adjective or preposition as well as an adverb. In "line astern" it works more like a preposition, as "line astern (the flag)" in the sense you just linked. Better to leave the part of speech unspecified, rather than clutter the entry in Glossary of nautical terms. Neatly done with the definition, by the way; thanks! __ Just plain Bill (talk) 20:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Holy hole in my vocabulary! Of course it's a preposition, something I am more than passingly familiar with! I have no idea what malfunction could be responsible for me writing adverb. I'm horrified by this, but glad you caught it. I came to the same conclusion about omitting parts of speech after seeing it wasn't done elsewhere in the article. I'll go get that brain scan now... Eric talk 20:33, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Palette knife

It's original research but palette knives wear down from use. In the process of getting worn down they get very thin, and therefore sharp. They become so thin that they eventually break. That is from blending paint on a wooden or glass palette. The particles of pigment are like fine sand which is obviously abrasive. In fact the so-called "earth colors" are exactly that. They are, if they are from natural sources, soils that have particular, desirable colorations. The foregoing is as per this edit.

By the way, it is the "offset" type that is recommended for mixing, blending, formulating colors, such as the two to the right in this picture, and it is that type which is subject to the type of wear I am describing. Bus stop (talk) 16:52, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I do believe what you say is true. Something about that wearing-down could go back in, and I won't be much of a stickler about finding a reference to cite it... Main reason I took it out was that it seemed too wordy for the short article, and tangential to the basics of what a palette knife is and does. In a little while I'll start some discussion at Talk:Palette knife unless you get there first, to get better exposure for it. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 19:20, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I have Ralph Mayer's book. I've never seen mention of this phenomenon anywhere. In fact I have never heard anyone else mention it. It is just my own experience. I thought it was worth noting because it is a danger. One may not be aware that the edge of the blade has already been reduced to nothingness. It probably has to do with the way I happen to use the palette knife. I probably use too much pressure or hold the blade very flat to the palette below, resulting in a situation that is akin to sharpening a knife on a special block of stone used for that purpose. Funny…

Spelling practice

Hi Bill, I didn't know U.S. English used "practice" as a verb...does it not distinguish between the noun and verb? I'm also a bit surprised at Eric Partridge using U.S. English, even in an edition of his works published in New York. Still, I'll take your word for it :-) Bluewave (talk) 16:54, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, should have looked more carefully before I leapt there. In US English, both the noun and the verb are spelt with "ice." Damage undone... __ Just plain Bill (talk) 17:25, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Oh well, I've learned something then! In my schooldays (in England!), English teachers were terrible sticklers for distinguishing the "ise" and "ice" endings. U.S. English avoids the problem altogether then. I'll try and remember when editing articles that use U.S. English! Bluewave (talk) 17:30, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Primary energy

I agree with good faith reversion - and the philosophy gave me a chuckle at myself. There seems, however, to be an opportunity for improvement for the deeper reader; as you observe this should not disrupt the basic encyclopedia function (and assumptions thus carried). For example Energy and society seems a related article. I've begun some thoughts on Primary energy talk page. Perhaps you would like to participate? (talk) 03:10, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I've answered you there. I'm all in favor of awareness and scrutinizing dichotomies and such, but widening the focus of that page will need to be done carefully and without agenda. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 03:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)



Listing all of the unreferenced biographies of living people for your project and Bruno Giuranna

Since you are one of the few editors who are in this project. Thanks! Okip (the new and improved Ikip) 17:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

AfD nomination of BUMMMFITCHH

Ambox warning pn.svg

An article that you have been involved in editing, BUMMMFITCHH, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/BUMMMFITCHH. Thank you.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. --jpgordon::==( o ) 16:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


Hi Bill. I am admittedly just learning how to use Wiki but I don't understand why you pulled my link? I was just trying to add what I thought was an interesting and relivant link to a non-commercial website? --Zonethree (talk) 03:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I have answered you on your talk page. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 03:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

User page vandal

Per my note at AIV, would you rather have your user page semiprotected to prevent the vandalism? —DoRD (?) (talk) 16:03, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

No real need, thanks. In the long run it doesn't get vandalized all that often. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 16:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Alrighty. If you change your mind, just drop a request at RFPP. Cheers! —DoRD (?) (talk) 17:38, 27 February 2010 (UTC)


i need to translate more words from hebrew. do you think i should put a new paragrph to the " names " of it ? ..... burekas (talk) 15:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps that would be useful, as well as citations, chapter and verse, of where it is mentioned in the Bible. The article in German mentions two verses in Genesis, but those seem uncertain to me.
I will be keeping an eye on Talk:Mastic (plant resin); it will be better to hold this discussion there, for better exposure to other interested eyes. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 15:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Imitations or substitutes for Mastic

I inquired and found there are some imitations and substitutes for " Mastic " Because of the high price, Such as :

1 - Pine tree resin

2 - Almond tree resin

3 - Boswellia tree resin

i think we should put New paragraph for it also. burekas (talk) 21:34, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

I have answered you at Talk:Mastic (plant resin), which is on my watchlist; it will be better to hold this discussion there, for better exposure to other interested eyes. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 23:10, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

ok burekas (talk) 23:59, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Music Barnstar

I feel very flattered that you put my barnstar on your home page. :D It was worth it to try and make the text pleasent to read. ;-) I meant every word of it. Your design is clearly superior and the best I've ever seen (I'm saying this as a musician). I will use it for many years to come. I'm sorry I didn't respond to your comment earlier but I'm logging in to Wikipedia with a rather decreasing frequency. Oh yes... and feel free to take the barnstar down when you're bored with it. ;-) OutOfTimer Wanna chat? 23:35, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Naturism Article

I liked the Cranach painting in the article. Maybe we could make it less prominent, but it does seem to indicate that naturism was a positive thing, and normal from a historical perspective. I mean, it is not that crucial to the article, but it does add value, IMO. Atom (talk) 22:56, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'm heading over to Talk:Naturism right now. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 23:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

from Brass instrument

Specifically I was running late (hit "save page" after what we've discovered was a hasty proofread). Moving outwards, the article has a lot to clear up, which tends to increase typos & other mistakes. Most generally what isn't up. For example, not being in school this semester gives me more time to to work/waste on Wikipedia, but doesn't really help me in obtaining my degree. Hyacinth (talk) 02:26, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't play the horn and haven't studied orchestration specifically for the horn. But that doesn't mean that the horn is in an alternate universe. Hyacinth (talk) 02:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Just Intonation

Hi Bill,

Not sure if this is the best way to talk to you or you are the most appropriate person to talk to. I decided to seek you out because ur talk page says you dont like ET (nor do I!)

This is a question regarding the Just intonation article. I find it biased towards the just major scale and somewhat ignoring the just minor scale [See my comment in the Just Intonation talk page ]

Rpm13 (talk) 16:12, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm keeping my eyes on that page, but not sure how much I can add to the scholarly discussion. I do like clear true intonation when I hear it! __ Just plain Bill (talk) 21:09, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Chewing gum

Hi. I don't really care how it is spelled but the first appearance of oesophagus in the article would appear to be in [this edit] way back in 2004. The article still contains both 'flavourings' and 'colourings' which I believe are not American spellings. Confusing? Not really - I don't understand why both spellings can't be used as they are pretty universally understood. But at least Camryn now knows that spellings are not necessarily wrong - and I was quite nice to her. ♦ Jongleur100 talk 15:17, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Indeed you were. Ordinarily I'm not bothered to go changing from one English to another, much less reverting when someone else does. Here it was the combination of a new editor and the spelling as used in the reference that tipped me over the edge of caring about it. Perfectly content for "flavor" and "flavouring" to appear in the same article, as it does now, __ Just plain Bill (talk) 15:48, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Good, we are agreed that spellings aren't that important. (Although you still claim that the article uses 'American English') It was because she is a new editor that I took the trouble to check the original spelling before I made my edit. ♦ Jongleur100 talk 16:03, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article appears to use mixed UK and US spellings; you won't find me claiming otherwise, now that I've noticed the mix. The spelling in question has been back and forth over the years; as the article stands today, the cited source for the kid with gum and coins stuck together in her gullet is a magazine article definitely written in American English. Be well, __ Just plain Bill (talk) 16:32, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Design elements and principles

Hi there. I replied to a couple of your posts on the Talk:Design elements and principles page. There were edits made just after I had replied to you, so you might not have seen them in your watchlist. Take care! TheTwoRoads (talk) 06:00, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Violing mishap

I found out that my friend Chie Han was fooling around and posting everywhere that 'violin' was a curse word. Sorry if he did any damage. Fifteen501 (talk) 20:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)Fifteen501

No damage done; wikis can be resilient that way. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 01:58, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

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My photo contribution shows people where to put the bow on the string. I would appreciate it if you did not delete it again. I am a cello teacher, and a lot of students do not know where to place it. The other picture on there is incorrect on where to put the bow. I did not delete it because that was not its purpose, it's purpose was for showing you where to put your fingers. I am a contributer. I see that you delete a lot of nonsense, but I consider this a contribution. I hope you understand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D.anderson1988 (talkcontribs) 02:52, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Hey, Dwayne, I have opened a new section at the Cello talk page for better exposure to ideas from other editors. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 04:15, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Trombone slide

Yes, I agree, I've only heard it referred to as "the slide", but opted to leave it as it was ("main slide") and just revert the edit that changed it to "hand slide". I agree that it didn't seem like vandalism - I clicked on the "vandalism" choice in Twinkle by mistake. - Special-T (talk) 19:29, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Beekeeping ethics


We talked about beekeeping ethics on Wikipedia some time ago.

I just came across this information:

It shows many disturbing facts about beekeeping practices and the beekeeping industry. Is the information shown there correct? I know someone that knows the people that created the presentation, and I can try to find what sources they used.

Since it is somewhat out of scope for Wikipedia, I prefer to continue this discussion by e-mail.

Thank you, -- Gabi S. (talk) 08:06, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Gabi, I prefer to keep the discussion in the open, to benefit from public scrutiny, and perhaps to help others who may care to read this. Here in my Wikipedia user talk space is OK by me. Some quotes from the slideshow at that link:
"Beekeepers douse the [poorly producing] hive with petroleum, then burn it with the bees inside."
That was the treatment for foulbrood before antibiotics became available. Any modern beekeeper who destroys his woodware (sometimes called "bee furniture") merely because the bees have not produced enough, clearly has more money than sense.
"Bees cannot escape from captivity. Lone bees will rarely make it on their own, they need the support of a colony"
Bees can and do swarm, despite the beekeepers' best efforts. A bee colony is a superorganism; "lone bees" are incidental to the life of the colony. Summer workers naturally live about six weeks. Feral colonies are quite common. In the Americas and Australia, for example, all such feral colonies are descended from "captive" stock, simply because Apis mellifera is not native to these continents.
"Since swarming requires a queen, the queen's wings are cut off."
Bees are perfectly capable of raising their own new queens. It is a matter of nutrition, determined by the workers. Any female larva can become a queen, if properly fed from a sufficiently early age.
"Artificial insemination involving the death of the male, is the norm for the new generation of queen bees."
Natural insemination also involves the death of the male. Drones pursue queens to a high altitude, the strongest flyer being successful. They mate in the air, and the drone's penis remains with the queen when the pair separates. The penis and its associated anatomy is ripped from the drone's abdomen, and he dies soon after. So it has been since the beginning of bee kind.
I did not watch any further. I am willing to call BS on what I did see. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 19:35, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the replies... I will continue later. -- Gabi S. (talk) 15:42, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Organizational ergonomics

I should have given a better edit summary. It wasn't referenced, but a bit of searching showed it had been copied. Since it was copied from a reliable source, I just added the ref. --Ronz (talk) 22:38, 6 December 2010 (UTC)


I have personally been to 8 countries in this world that excessively and habitually use tridents as sexual implements. When asked about the peculiar habit, they reply with a smile, "two in the pink, one in the stink, amiright?" STOP marking my edits as vandalism, they are important contributions to the public wealth of knowledge. have a nice day love, Justin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Cite a source or it didn't happen. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 18:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Musical form

Please contribute to discussion at;

Thanks Redheylin (talk) 07:04, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. I will watch that discussion, and jump in if I have something to add. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


Just curious about how you would propose to deal with the uses of beeswax. Beeswax is representative of many articles on natural materials. Approximately 10,000 tons of beeswas are produced annually, and I am guessing that people have been using beeswax for many centuries. So how long a list and how minute an application merits inclusion? My question is partly rhetorical, but also real: it is impossible to list all applications of materials and by doing so, one detracts from the readability of an article. In general, readability is improved with paragraph format which builds in priority to notable applications. But you are experienced here and I would be interested in how a non-technology editor views such articles. Thanks,--Smokefoot (talk) 00:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The various uses take advantage of various properties of beeswax, as food, pharm, adhesive, stiction-promoting/lubricant, preservative (e.g. water barrier), illumination fuel, and so forth. Those two sections, Beeswax#Uses_as_a_product and Beeswax#Historical use were a cluster of disorganized items; now there is a bit more sense to the order.
"Lists may be embedded in articles." In this case, I believe the list is more readable than paragraphs would be.
This discussion will better be held at Talk:Beeswax. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 00:58, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

"kind of a mid-20th century notion, don't you think?"

It's in WP:MUSIC: "Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of whom are notable)" Just like in book publishing, labels (with all their faults) continue to serve as a first filter. Self-published music, like self-published books, is very, very high in the crap-to-quality ration. --Orange Mike | Talk 02:43, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Taken as a whole, self-published materials' high CQR is understandable. In Cynthia's case, I keep her tunes in rotation on my mp3 player, and I don't enjoy listening to crap. I don't claim to be a reliable source, but I am putting some effort into finding some references for this stub. You think it's ready for the main space yet? __ Just plain Bill (talk) 03:37, 24 December 2010 (UTC)