User talk:Kansas Bear

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Battle Of Mutah[edit]

Dear Sir, I am a student in O Levels and am studying Islamiat. The number of soldiers of the Byzantine Empire have been said to be 100,000 to 200,000 by various blog sites, books and the OFFICIAL Cambrdige Marking Scheme, but you deem many blogs an unreliable source, the number of soldiers said now are less than 10,000 on the official page. This may cause a lot of confusion among people, I tried to follow the cited source for 10,000 or less but could not trace back to any such figure. Please help me clear this confusion, and allow multiple blogs to be deemed as reliable sources, thanks.

     Edit 2: I have in my hand the book of Yasmin Malik : Islam Beliefs and Practices, and on page 37 it clearly states the figure of 100,000, can you please fix this at your earliest convenience, thanks.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 22:12, 14 April 2016 (UTC) 
After a cursory search, Yasmin Malik does not appear to be an historian. You have not presented any evidence to prove "that book in your hands" is a reliable source and judging from the title, it is not an academically published history book. I would suggest taking your concerns to the article talk page, where you will find numerous reliable sources listed. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:12, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Yasmin Malik is the standard book to teach students Islamiat, one of the standard atleast, including Farkhanda Noor, I tried to follow the "reliable" sources but could NOT find the number 10,000 listed anywhere, wherever I see a number mentioned, it's 100,000, can you please point out where is 10k written? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:42, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Malik is not an historian and the book in question is self published, which means it is not a reliable source. --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:11, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

The Seljuks[edit]

Dear Kansas , I think you have made a mistake in your interpration about the meaning of ethnicity.If you read wikipedia about ethnicity you would see an ethnicity is defined based on the anccestors , language and culture of a group of you do agree with e the later generations of the house of Seljuk was highly Persinated by culture and language , so I can not understand why do you against the Persian part of the house of Seljuk

This is not my interpretation. This is blatantly stated by the academic sources I have provided.

January 2016[edit]

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Sockpuppet investigation[edit]

It seems Dengesizz (talk · contribs) is the new sockpuppet of EMr KnG (talk · contribs). I submitted a SPI case, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/EMr_KnG. It will be very helpful if you write your comment. Because we encountered this user on several articles before (e.g. Template:History of the Turkic peoples pre-14th century). Also, it's possible that he registered multiple accounts and attacks other articles. Thanks. --Zyma (talk) 18:46, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

The see also section of Battle of Tarain[edit]

The battles of Salher and Raichur are not directly related to the battle of Tarain, however the single common element of all these battles are that they the ones whereby the native (Hindu) Indian army defeated (or achieved some level of success) an invading foreign one (here foreign one implies an Islamic one). Nonetheless your wish. Amit20081980 (talk) 10:42, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXVIII, January 2016[edit]

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Hello, Kansas Bear. Please check your email; you've got mail!
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- LouisAragon (talk) 04:52, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


Do you agree with this reversion? Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 13:10, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Prima facie, it appears correct. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:11, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. - LouisAragon (talk) 09:39, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXIX, February 2016[edit]

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Battle of Mutah[edit]

I have read the Arabic and Byzantine history books about the battle in great detail. The muslims were first pushed back from the original battle field when three of thier leaders were killed. They then camped in Mutah were they skirmishes with the Byzantines and Khalid ibn waleed took over. Who made it appear as if new troops arrived. This made the Byzantines withdraw and then the muslims withdrew. YOU have to look at sources from both sides to get a clearer picture. Kasif the great (talk) 20:53, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

I dont care what you have read. Articles on wikipedia are written using published secondary sources, not primary sources or your or anyone else's opinions. Unreliable and primary sources will be removed and replaced with reliable published secondary sources.--Kansas Bear (talk) 21:38, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Is there any detailed analysis of the battle from a secondary source, I'm very interested in reading, I think I have pinpointed the Urban legend of the Muslim Victory which is solely based on the Khalid's performance (based on Al-Waqidi) at the end of the battle. Yet Ibn Kathir (based on Ibn Ishaq)mentions the fact that the Muslim when they were back in Medina people started throwing sand and calling them cowards. Seems not a victory. I think a lot of Muslim people who can't take this defeat today and before, is the fact that you can't call Khalid's supposed retreat a victory based on Modern Standards. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 09:48, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I have not found, through google books or books I own, any detailed account of the battle. Granted the bulk of the sources are from Western sources, however, The Encyclopaedia of Islam, which I have quoted on the Battle of Mu'tah talk page, is written by academics that are specialists in the field of Islam. As for primary sources, we should avoid the direct usage of primary sources, unless quoted by published secondary sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:18, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I haven't used primary source ever in Wikipedia, even if I did I'm very careful and give priority to secondary sources, I have Encyclopedia of Islam IE2, I'm still not satisfied with the details. I am sure someone has analyzed it, just have to dig deep. But one thing that caught my eye how the editor/contributor named F. Buhl doesn't take Khalid's supposed strategy of retreat seriously (based on Al-Waqidi). Alexis Ivanov (talk) 00:23, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
The reason it is considered an Islamic victory is because Muslims suffered 12 casualties, while the number of casualties on Byzantines side was at least in hundreds, up to 3000 at maximum. Muslims were not able to avenge the death of their envoy, but they showed their strength and damaged the enemy — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:56, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
What secondary sources state this? All I see is personal opinion unsupported by published secondary sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:02, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
     Hey infidel! Never insult Kasif the great (talk) or Muhammad or any other muslim again or I will troll the crap out of you! Takbir! ALLAHU AKBAR!!!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:44, 16 August 2016 (UTC) 
Dear hater of the great and holy pizza. My pepperoni hordes will never bow to your personal attacks. I have anchovies by the thousands ready to engulf the world in a never-ending spasm of mozzarella cheese. Beware the coming of the sharpened pizza cutter.--Kansas Bear (talk) 00:54, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Louis IV of France[edit]

Hi, thanks for your kind opinion. I just in the process to translated the article from french to english, so I first translated all and at the end i put the respective references. Thanks a lot for your concern. Aldebaran69 (talk) 23:46, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

WikiDefender Barnstar Hires.png The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
Keep it up! Cheers. Zyma (talk) 02:36, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you sir! --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:39, 16 March 2016 (UTC)


Mind giving your opinion regarding this dispute here? It's about the inclusion of the Persian translation in the lede. - LouisAragon (talk) 02:41, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXX, March 2016[edit]

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Lead section[edit]

A user changed ethnicity of Massagetae [1]. Previous lead was stable for a long time and I think it's based on cited sources. That user is an experienced editor (an admin). So the new revision confuses me. Is it based on WP:WEIGHT or what? Would you please review it? --Zyma (talk) 16:38, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

From what I have found;
  • 1.Karasulas, Antony. Mounted Archers Of The Steppe 600 BC-AD 1300 (Elite). Osprey Publishing, 2004, ISBN 184176809X, p. 7, states the Massagetae spoke an Iranian language, which does not necessarily mean they were Iranic. Which Karasulas goes into detail about how certain peoples spoke a Turkic language but were not Turkic.(pages 7-8) Also, as far as I could find, Karasulas is a doctoral student at the Australian National University, so I have concerns over his reliability as a source.
  • 2.Wilcox, Peter. Rome's Enemies: Parthians and Sassanids. Osprey Publishing, 1986, ISBN 0-85045-688-6, p. 9, states the Massagetae were an Iranian people, however I can not find anything about Wilcox. Therefore, for me, his reliability as a source is a concern.
  • 3.Gershevitch, Ilya. The Cambridge History of Iran (Volume II). Cambridge University Press, 1985, ISBN 0-521-20091-1, p. 48, states the Massagetae were an Iranian tribe.
  • 4.Grousset, René. The Empire of the Steppes. Rutgers University Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8135-1304-9, p. 547, fine source, however, the page simply states what Massyagata means in Iranian. Which does not mean they were Iranic.
  • 5.The Cambridge History of Iran: The Median and Achaemenian periods. By Ilya Gershevitch, same source as #3.
So essentially, only the Cambridge source is viable, however if the Wilcox source checks out it would also be a viable source.
I will start a discussion on the Massagetae talk page and see if Grant65 has sources that state something else. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:15, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, I think you can write a better revision than Iranian (old revision) or Indo-European (current revision). If all sources do not support Iranian origin or Iranian theory is not strong enough, then it's better to move them to a new section, e.g. "Origin" section. Just like Huns and Xiongnu. --Zyma (talk) 04:55, 10 April 2016 (UTC)


Report that new user to an admin. As you already know, he and those IP-hoppers are this guy. Same insults, same behavior on talk page. --Zyma (talk) 06:02, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXXI, April 2016[edit]

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Royal Alcazar of Madrid[edit]

I already answered in the talk page, sorry for the time that i answered, i was busy--Vvven (talk) 00:04, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

A reference[edit]

Hey KB, long time no talk. Hope you're doing fine. I was wondering; could you perhaps check whether this added reference is a legit one? I've actually never read about these "plans" in the mainstream historiography, nor about the writer, hence my doubts. Thanks much in advance. Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 22:38, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

According to the inside of the book, Raghubir Sinh appears to have been an historian, Malwa in Transition being his doctoral thesis. The book appears reliable, though its historiography is outdated. It wouldn't hurt to find a corroborating source. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:17, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks much. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:24, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for your edits to Yusuf Adil Shah. There does seem that one ends up either relying on writers like Firishta and Münejjim Bashi, and their more recent advocates, or siding with more recent writers that dismiss them as fiction. It seems better to try and find a way to be objective and so thank you for your work trying to cut through the tangle. Simongraham (talk) 15:46, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Qutb Shah[edit]

As a junior editor, I truly respect you and your point of views but could you please tell me that how the sources which I stated to back my information are wrong and how your source from a satisfactory book source which contradicts with many of the Old and modern Writings is more reliable and worth citing here. Thank You. Muhammadahmad79 (talk) 22:05, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

  • The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon, Chapter 57, Gibbon is an outdated source, has no specialization in this area, oh and since I own Gibbon's unabridged version of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Chapter 57 does not mention Qutb Shah. Did you copy it from here? source misrepresentation
  • The Spiritual Guides of Sarwari Qadri Order By Sultan Mohammad Najib-ur-Rehman, primary source translated by non-historians. unreliable source
  • Kashf ul Asrar English Translation: Sultan Bahoo English Book Kashf ul Asrar, by Sultan Bahoo, primary source translated by non-historian. unreliable source
  • Researched By Dr Muhammad Iqbal Awan and Jalhari Moazzam Shah, you edited this into another article whilst logged out(as an IP), this is from unreliable source
  • Tohfat Al Awan (Book), nothing on or Probably a fake book.
  • History of Awan, by Muhammad Sarwar Khan Awan, nothing on or Nothing about the author. Appears to repeat the same fairy tales.
  • Talbot, W.S., 1991, Gazetteer of the Jhelum District 1904: Part 1, Sang-e-Meel Publications, p.100 and Kaul, H., 1912, Report on the Census of Punjab 1911, p.p.445-446. Neither of these are reliable sources, not written by historians.unreliable source
  • الشجرۃ-الزکیتہ-فی-انساب-بنیی-ھاشم, you can read this? Or did you simply copy and paste it from one of these sites?
You do not appear to understand what a reliable source actually is, ignoring even what the Rose source states, "According to one tradition of the Awans....., which means its a legend/fairy tale. Yet you have chosen to present this as historical fact.
So, why don't you explain why you re-added unreliable sources after being told numerous times they were unreliable[2][3][4][5][6][7][8] and why you ignored admin Utcursch's warning? --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:20, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXXII, May–June 2016[edit]

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Michael I of Russia[edit]

Regarding this long unsourced sentence "The weeping boyars solemnly declared that if he persisted in his refusal, they would hold him responsible to God for the destruction of Russia" in the firts alinea of the body. I found the reference from which it is taken. Its written by R. Nisbet Bain, a late 1800/early 1900 historian, who published the material in 1908 (thus, outdated). The stuff is published in the 1911 Encylcopaedia Britannica publications as well. The thing now is however, Cambridge University Press has re-published his book in 2013 as the first paperback edition, which still includes the sentence (p 188). Do you think I should cite it as a reference behind the sentence and remove the 6-yo tag, perhaps adding a "Historian R. Nisbet Bain (1854–1909) stated that (...)" with it? Or do you think the whole line should be just deleted as no modern-day sources back up the thing, as well as because the whole thing is unsourced for like... 6 years? - LouisAragon (talk) 00:52, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Judging from the paragraph structure, the sentence seems out of place and really has no place in the paragraph. It makes assertions not previously mentioned or stated in the paragraph. So yeah, I would scrap it. --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:06, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for your opinion. - LouisAragon (talk) 18:17, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
You are welcome. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:24, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Lel, I think we got another one for your fanclub (User:Kansas tear). Also, btw, though you might have had already noticed; amongst the masses of socks who have been blocked in the past few days, Steverci has also been CU indeffed as a sock of a long-term sock abuser. My my, what a surprise. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:25, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

LOL. Yeah, Bbb23 blocked it, almost before I could mention anything.
Honestly, I really was not surprised Steverci was socking. Sometime ago, I thought I saw a pattern, but it didn't seem relevant. So I figured to just give him more rope. Nice work on the SPI, by the way. --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:37, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I meant it in a rather sarcastic way :D At least that's what I hoped it would come across as. It was obvious since a very long time ago that he was socking. And it obviously didn't stop after his first row of socks were blocked.
Btw man, regarding this; you probably figured out yourself long ago, but you've reached the point where no intellectual convo can be held anymore regarding the matter. Don't waste your time. Even if you'd post 99 more reliable sources, it'd still be "just an opinion". You've said your stuff, and you've backed it all up more than well enough. It's saved now for the record. Just wanted to give my own view on that dialogue, as I was kinda involved in the initial matter as well. - LouisAragon (talk) 16:53, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Oh, I know. Just thought I would show what The Encyclopaedia of Islam states, since it has an academic editorial board. Wikipedia can be like that, learning something that does not agree with one's personal beliefs. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:24, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Btw man, I was just reviewing the Maurya Empire article. I thought its actually hilarious how the article easily claims in the lede, and well as on the unsourced map, that it held territory in what is modern-day Iran, even though no such thing actually happened. I have never ever read of any historical impact/expansion or whatsoever in(to) any part of Iran by this empire. I made a further dig myself therefore, and indeed, I couldn't find a single reliable reference that attests to this tale that the empire, at any point, had expanded into the territory of nowadays Iran. Did you perhaps stumble across this same matter at some time? Does the JSTOR database say something about this? Virtually every source I found myself states that its maximum extent was Pakistan/Afghanistan in the west, but I wonder whether you could list a few more references from JSTOR to fix this once and for all, as well as to to remove/adjust those bogus unsourced maps that are present on the article for a pretty long by now. If it ain't too much of an effort of course.
Just to name a few of the sources that I found;
  • Chandragupta founded the Mauryan Empire. His empire encompassed the whole of northern India and Afghanistan. -- Alfred S. Bradford, Pamela M. Bradford (2001). With Arrow, Sword, and Spear: A History of Warfare in the Ancient World p 125
  • The vastness of the Mauryan empire, from Afghanistan in the north to Karnataka in the south and from Kathiawad in the west to Kalinga in the east (if not as far as north Bengal), is considered on the basis of the spots where Asoka's edicts were (...) -- Bharati Ray. Different Types of History. Pearson Education India. p 24
  • The Maurya Empire extended from Afghanistan in the north to the deep south in India except for the southern tip of (...) -- Stanton, et al. (2012) Cultural Sociology of the Middle East, Asia, and Africa: An Encyclopedia p. 41
  • By 300, Chandragupta ruled over an India that extended from modern Afghanistan to Burma and from the Himalayas to nearly the southern tip of the subcontinent. -- David W. Del Testa (2014) Government Leaders, Military Rulers and Political Activists p. 30
  • It has been already shown (Ch. II) that the empire of Candragupta extended from Afghanistan to Mysore and that of Ashoka was far greater in extent including all the Dekhan and South India upto the frontiers of the Tamil Kingdoms. -- V. R. Ramachandra Dikshitar (1993) Motilal Banarsidass Publ., The Mauryan Polity'. p 197
  • "He [Ashoka] controlled an empire (the largest until British rule) that ranged from Bangladesh in the east to Afghanistan in the north and included much of the southern part of the subcontinent. -- Denise Patry Leidy (2008) The Art of Buddhism: An Introduction to Its History & Meaning p 9
  • (...) Candragupta's empire were the Hindu Kush in the north and the Afghan highlands above Herat in the west, and so he (...) -- Jack Finegan (1989) An Archaeological History of Religions of Indian Asia p 109
PS: I'm going to further expand the Russo-Turkish War 1787-1792 in the nearest future. Already got my references ready for it. Thanks for having already removed that Baddely stuff and for having made a great start already. - LouisAragon (talk) 05:57, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
I can look through JSTOR, but their search engine is sporadic at best.
As for Maurya Empire, has the Grainger source been interpreted incorrectly?
"Seleucus I ceded the territories of Arachosia (modern Kandahar), Gedrosia (modern Balochistan), and Paropamisadae (or Gandhara). Aria (modern Herat) "has been wrongly included in the list of ceded satrapies by some scholars [...] on the basis of wrong assessments of the passage of Strabo [...] and a statement by Pliny." (Raychaudhuri & Mukherjee 1996, p. 594). Seleucus "must [...] have held Aria", and furthermore, his "son Antiochos was active there fifteen years later." (Grainger 2014, p. 109)."
Note the information in the parentheses has been added, since it is not found in the source itself.
If we go looking for Persia/Iran for the furthest extent of Mauryan expansion, I do not believe we will find anything. Gedrosia and Makran, appear linked together. Your thoughts?
Good to hear about the 1787 war. That particular editor(pro-Baddeley) only wants to make the issue of Baddeley's unreliability, personal. I guess when they do not have a real argument... --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:45, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
Kansas Bear; thanks much. That basically fully confirms my assumptions, namely that the addition of Iran was not much more than some nationalistic ungrounded IP nonsense. It was added in ~ 2014 by some IP (I can even dig for the diff if needed) who randomly decided to insert Iran to it, even though not a single sources makes/made such a mention that the Mauryans ever held territory with the modern-day confines of this nation.
Yeah, the Grainger source has indeed been misinterpreted per WP:OR. Oh btw, this other reference written by Saul, David (2009; War: From Ancient Egypt to Iraq. Dorling Kindersley. ISBN 9781405341332) page 362) seals the whole matter further as he states that the "Gedrosians are known to have successfully prevented the Indian Mauryans from capturing the western-most parts of their state", thus, even, if Gedrosia was to be synonymous with the entire present-day defined confines of "Balochistan", we can safely assert, based on all this, that we were completely right with our doubts. I will make sure the maps/content is fixed accordingly. Been way too long that this ungrounded nonsense was available on the article, but then again, thats why we have so many SPA and sock IP's/accounts. Remember to always assume good faith! Lel. - LouisAragon (talk) 21:06, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
Sent you the sources btw, that you were asking for some time ago related to that other matter. - LouisAragon (talk) 03:20, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Mind leaving your opinion here? [9]. PS: I replied to your mail, just in case. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:39, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── After checking the discussion, it appears to be more a matter of linguistics, which is not my forté. However, TaivoLinguist and Florian Blaschke may be able to assist you. Sorry. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:03, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

No probs. The matter has "some" historic aspects, hence why I thought of asking you. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:14, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Btw, a matter alike to the thing that went on Battle of Mu'tah is going on here it seems, regarding its content ("100.000 Romanz vs a tiny amount of Muslim forces", for example). I went ahead and deleted/tagged some of the most nonsensical/outrageous content myself, for now. Haven't had the time to fix the article accordingly yet, but the funny thing is, is that even right now the lede and the infobox assert the matter in such way as if there was actually a pitched battle, even though all academics unanimously agree that no such thing ever happened, lel. Surprise? I think not. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:23, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
The author, Sukhbir Singh Kapoor, "In this early career he was Professor and Head of Accounting at SGTB Khalsa College Delhi, University of Delhi and Principal Lecturer in Accounting at London Guildhall University. Later he became a Guest Professor of Sikhism at the FVG in Antwerp, Belgium."
Not what I would call an historian. LOL.--Kansas Bear (talk) 18:52, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
KB, do you by any chance have access to the pages 134 and 176 of; Blow, David (2009). Shah Abbas: The Ruthless King Who Became an Iranian Legend. I.B.Tauris. ISBN 978-0857716767. If yes, could you copy paste the info regarding the demise of this Armenian dude Yusof Khan? I believe its specifically stated on p. 176, but not entirely sure. - LouisAragon (talk) 18:28, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Well, so far it appears that page 159-184 are not viewable. Let me do some digging and see if I can bring something up. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:08, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. Btw, lel.[10][11]. Anti-Arabism lmao. - LouisAragon (talk) 07:36, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Nothing. I even check google books in other languages. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

- No problem. Thank much for your effort.
- On the Persianate society page; I have excluded the Khanates of the Caucasus so far (e.g. Erivan Khanate, Karabakh Khanate, etc.) as most of them that had prominence were simply de facto provinces under the Safavids/Qajars. Having said that, I think that the Durrani Empire and Hotak dynasty should be deleted from the list, as I can't find anything that states that the Hotaks "were Persianate", and the same goes for the Durranis, apart from this (Thomas Barfield (2010), p 125 "(...) but the Durrani elite judged itself by the standards of a Persianate political system (...)". It ain't the best source either, on top of that; the writer is a Harvard Anthropologist/Social Scientist specializing in Afghanistan, though, with a chair in the "American Institute of Afghanistan Studies"). There are, lastly, a few sources mentioning the Persian-like imitated court of some of the later Durrani rulers, who copied it from the Mughals, but does that merit for them to be included in the list? - LouisAragon (talk) 13:29, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Anthropology is fine, since it encompasses culture, which is what Persianate represents. The fact they "judged" themselves by the standard of a Persianate political system does not necessarily mean they implemented a Persianate style political system. As for the Durrani rulers copying from the Mughals, if the Durrani were in fact a Persianate, then I am sure some academic made mention of it. --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:26, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
I removed it for now. If someone has any concerns over it, he/she can expand their main pages backing u the claim. - LouisAragon (talk) 02:11, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Are these edits unsourced and personal analysis (POV)?[edit]

Hello. What do you think about these edits?

  • [12] Afghan Turkestan -> South Turkeststan. Not mentioned in the body of article. Looks like a pov & nationalistic term.
  • [13] Why he added Turkish & Uzbek without any edit summaries? Are they really related to that article? --Wario-Man (talk) 18:49, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
I would say, check what sources there are for the photos and what those sources state. Then check with an Administrator that knows about pictures and what can and can not be added/stated with photos. I do not know that much about the picture/photo section of Wikipedia. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:18, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
Okay. Thanks. --Wario-Man (talk) 02:18, 17 June 2016 (UTC)


Dear wikipedia user,

I have seen that you currently undid the changes on the page baghrir. I have explained in the talk page why certain additions were made, and tagged you in it. I have seen that you reverted some other pages aswell, accusing me of taking part in a edditing war. Please note that im not the one who is starting a edditing war on wikipedia. There has been 2 particular berber wikipedia users who have been sockpuppeting with many different accounts, constantly undoing information on the pages. It made me look like I'm the one who is constantly vandalising the page, but all the users are actually the same users. These users are user:JovanAndreano, user:Historydish, user:Americanpcuisine, user:AyOuBoXe, user:jasminjovo which all have been blocked by wikipedia administrators after investigations of sockpuppeting. The administrator user:Ponyo and other administrators have already taken a look at this problem back in may. Since the users have been blocked, they keep coming back every day to revert information like these users user:Saraanastasiabro, user:Narabrooklyn, user: DanaCastle, user:Billkinzie which all have been blocked aswell. I have taken the responsibility to battle this problem on some pages, reverting the information which is constantly being reverted by sockpuppets making it an endless job. The page Baghrir was aswell created by user:JovanAndreano with false information and poor sources.

You might aswell take a look at this page in which the user abuses multiple accounts. I actually tagged him on the talk page of the wiki page "tajine" a while ago, but he didn't react to it. I hope you understand my actions and behavior on wikipedia, none of it is meant to vandalise information, but many North-Africna pages include lots of false information with poor sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alhaqiha (talkcontribs) 19:01, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

I have seen an IP making the exact same edits as yours over multiple articles. It is extremely clear you are here on a anti-Berber agenda.
As for the Baghrir article, an IP made the removal[14], claiming "not sourced".

These appear to be the sources that do not exist. Is this IP you? Said IP has also, according to Kuru, used as a reference a site which is a Wikipedia mirror site and added it to North African Arabs.[15] AND, copy and pasted information from somewhere to Wikipedia, also according to Kuru.[16]

It would seem to me you are disruptive in your editing. Logging out to continue your edit warring, adding Wikipedia mirror sites as references, copy & pasting, just to name a few instances.
Anything else? --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:15, 28 June 2016 (UTC)


For your information:

1- Nothing has changed on my edit, except two things: putting the right references on the right place instead of a block for all refs in the introduction & moving the origins block to a dedicated section [17]

2- The version your are putting back [18] is that of M.Bitton [19] a POV bias, instead of your own.


-- (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:52, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

And you have been reported for edit warring, since you either can not or will not use the talk page. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:04, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Copy-pasted content[edit]

Hi. The IP just copy-pasted content from cited sources (e.g. Britannica and others).[20] He didn't edit them, just pure copy-paste. Is it OK? --Wario-Man (talk) 04:29, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

No, it is not ok. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:30, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
So what should I do? Remove them or use related tag/template for that section? --Wario-Man (talk) 05:46, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXXIII, July 2016[edit]

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3rr on Grand Duchy of Lithuania[edit]

Hello User:Kansas Bear, on the matter concerning User:Craft27by I've submitted a report here. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 23:43, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Ok. Busy day, Hebel? --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:50, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
I've seen calmer ones ;-) Gerard von Hebel (talk) 23:59, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Wish admins took this stuff a bit more seriously. Heya, KB, been a while :) Kafka Liz (talk) 00:04, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
I hear you. Crazy stuff. What's up Liz! :) --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:06, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
A lot and at the same time, nothing. ;) Living in Ireland now, and seldom on here, but I do like to check in now and again. How's you? Kafka Liz (talk) 00:08, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Not bad. Guess we dodged a tornado a few nights ago, no sirens or any kind of warning. HA! Got to love living in Kansas! Although, I would not mind some cold weather. :/ --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:12, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Ouch. Very L Frank Baum - though I suspect you get sick of such refs. Rainy here - as always - but warm. It never gets very hot or cold here, but it is pretty damp. And green. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:26, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


They are assuming bad faith and their edits are very POV. Have they pretended the IP is a different person? Edward321 (talk) 03:01, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

User:Foleo posted as an edit summary, "Please do not bully or intimidate IP users as you did in Roman-Persian Wars".[21] Foleo's statement was because I reverted the IP, once, and posted a 3rr tag on the IP's talk page(he had reverted LouisAragon 3 times), to which he posted a 3rr tag on my talk page.
A cursory comparison of Foleo and the IP's edits[22] shows a high level of similar editing. A more intensive comparison indicates Foleo and the IP both add "Anti-Arabism" and "Islamophobe" to articles and editor talk page(s).FoleoFoleo,Foleo,IP,IP,IP. Yeah, same person. Same agenda, same bias. --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:52, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Additional court language used - Safavids[edit]

I had a suspicion that Georgian/Circassian/Armenian were spoken at the Safavid court, and indeed, David Blow (Shah Abbas: The Ruthless King Who Became an Iranian Legend. I.B.Tauris. ISBN 978-0857716767; pp 165-166) confirms my thought. I think it should be added to the Safavid dynasty infobox, do you agree? - LouisAragon (talk) 02:18, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

If the source says it, why can't you add it? Does Blow go into detail about how the languages were used? --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:21, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, he states that it was spoken due to the fact that there were large amounts of "gholams" (military slaves, part of the Safavid elite, similar to the Janissaries) present at the court from those three, and due to the high proportion of women in the harem from the same three aforementioned ethnicities. Furthermore, he gives Abbas I as an example of a Safavid ruler who seems to have been able to speak Georgian.
Ah, no specific reason, just wanted to tell you my finding as well :-) Thought you might find it interesting. Inb4 anther 10.000 hurr-durr IP's and "new users" geo-locating to Azerbaijan and Turkey will hop in to specifically spam remove "Armenian". Lel. - LouisAragon (talk) 02:36, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
I hear you. But, hey, that is quite the find! Nice work! --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:00, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
Btw, check this whenever you can. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:46, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I am not surprised, some people just do not get it. Wow. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:11, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Indeed... - LouisAragon (talk) 04:58, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
This matter has "some" kind of twist though I think. - LouisAragon (talk) 05:21, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
He has supported said editor in the past. So....... --Kansas Bear (talk) 06:33, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
Yeah. Btw, this sounds familiar to me. Does it to you as well? [23] - LouisAragon (talk) 22:46, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Sadly it does ring a few bells, fortunately it has been some time since I edited Qajars. Or at least it feels like it has been some time. LOL. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:41, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Lel, yeah, if any of those articles don't pop on our watchlist at least once a week, we can call that a calm week. - LouisAragon (talk) 03:29, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
Regarding your well-grounded concerns, I just noted some more related stuff. - LouisAragon (talk) 03:43, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
Also, on the Qajar page; its interesting to note that the same user (Yomagrey) canvassed user Atabey, even though the latter left the English Wiki years ago. [24]. The last person to do so was "Yalquzac". - LouisAragon (talk) 13:39, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
There's some mass WP:OR going on on this article (no surprise of course) and it seems in fact as if the whole article was fabricated on self-interpretation and imaginary tales. I recently got most of the titles cited on the page; none of those that are WP:RS state anything about a "Kurakchay treaty". - LouisAragon (talk) 16:08, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Sorry for the slow response, LA. If I were you I would address the supposed sources on the talk page contrasted against what sources really state about the Treaty. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:37, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

About my edits in Walter II of Avesnes[edit]

Why reverting my contributions in this page?
Did I do something bad ? :( --Yufitran (talk) 02:28, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXXIV, August 2016[edit]

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Just read it[edit]

Just read your message. Sorry for being late. Yup, ANI is a total waste of time, except if one wants some kind of hilarious "show process" that is firstly very time consuming and often does not yield any results as well. Especially regarding IP's. Whenever an admin tells a legit long-standing member 1 on 1 that the matter should be taken to ANI it basically, with some exceptions, just means they are not in the mood/don't want to deal with it themselves. Think we both know that well after all this time. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:17, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh, just saw, as I was writing this; he already took the one way trip by himself on his own talk page. Lel... - LouisAragon (talk) 17:17, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, after ?2-3? days of his logged out rantings, apparently someone decided to resolve the issue. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:29, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
KB, I just checked the Orontid dynasty article, and it turned out that the reference added by "EtienneDolet" pointing to p. 20 of Payaslian, Simon (2007). The history of Armenia : from the origins to the present (1st ed.). New York: Palgrave Macmillan. p. 8. ISBN 1403974675, mentions not a single thing about the so-called possible Urartian origins of the Orontids. I removed the source and that specific content, and made some corrections per that what is supported by the overwhelming number of sources. I however vaguely remember that you once told that there is also a certain Bactrian theory regarding their origins? If yes, would you mind adding it to the section as well, per WP:NPOV? If the way that I re-wrote that part of the section isn't "NPOV" enough in your opinion (as I'm sure this change is gonna attract some *cough* "concerned" new editors) please let me know as well. - LouisAragon (talk) 00:05, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Well, judging from the bad faith, canvassing, personal attacks, and blatant ignoring of sources I had to endure in 2011, that is a midden I would just as soon avoid.
Here are the sources they ignored in 2011;
  • The Middle East under Rome, by Maurice Sartre, p23. Harvard University Press.
  • The royal hunt in Eurasian history, by Thomas T. Allsen, p37. University of Pennsylvania Press.
  • The Cambridge history of Iran, Volume 2, by William Bayne Fisher, Ilya Gershevitch, Ehsan Yar-Shater, Peter Avery, p354.
  • The Numismatic chronicle and Journal of the Royal Numismatic Society, by Royal Numismatic Society (Great Britain),p6.
I believe the issue is the same one I encountered when I presented evidence the Ottomans used the Persian language for 500 years before switching to Ottoman Turkish.
Some people will ignore facts, even if stated by !universities!, simply because it refutes what they believe is the truth. Granted I come from a Euro-centric, mid-western, Scottish, Irish, English, French, German ancestry, so I do not have the perspective of trying to keep "pure" my ethnicity from any outside influences. "User:XXX will not allow no Persian, no Turk, no Armenian, no Azerbaijani, no Kurdish, etc, etc, in our history."
So, that being said, no amount of information will make a difference to certain editors. Their sole purpose on Wikipedia is the protection of their articles. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:02, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks much.
Yeah, its a damn annoying (to put it polite) but rather complex issue that is more of a "mental error" than something that actually contains "logic". Its just a projection of the error in peoples minds irl, which subsequently gets projected online. That being said, its the very same reason as for why atm I'm still "mostly" (more than I'd actually like to) working on articles of this region as they're much more underdeveloped, and are so prone to impairing nonsense (e.g. sock armies, plain dorks, ethno-nationalists, "ill" people and what-not that we've seen passing by over the years), as compared to the articles of my "Euro" ancestry and background. I wish I could spend more time on history-related articles pertaining to Europe specificaly, rather than just "sometimes" making some major efforts on them and the occassional article here and there (e.g. Andrey Glebov, amongst others) but alas, unfortunately, that luxury isn't really given to me yet. Though I have to say, looking at the past 1-1,5 year, alot of history-related articles of this region (Iran/Armenia/Caucasus/Turkey/Azerbaijan) have improved in a relatively steady way. - LouisAragon (talk) 03:33, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Could you see btw if Hovhanisian (p 47/48) which has been added to this section says anything about so-called "Irano-Armenian" names regarding the Artaxiads? JSTOR apparently has the book.[25]. - LouisAragon (talk) 04:24, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── No good. JSTOR is a book review and it is non-viewable on google books. Sorry. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:30, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Aight, I will try getting those pages from the ppl at "resource request" then. - LouisAragon (talk) 04:34, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
BUT, does allow a search,
  • "Both the interior chronology of Moses Xorenc'i and the reading of the Armawir inscriptions are still open to considerable disagreement, but the the existence of a local Armenian dynasty, probably of Iranian origin, as indicated by both Strabo and Movses Xorenac'i as well as by the derivation of the Eruandid name, has now received additional corroboration...." -- page 47.
Which goes on to confirm the Iranian/Achaemenid origin of the Orontid dynasty.
Also, your query of the Irano-Armenian names are confirmed on page 48. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:43, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Seleucid empire manpower[edit]

I wrote a source which gave a conservative number of 49 million of the Persian empire in 480 bc. The Seleucid inherited most of the former Persian Empire lands and wad around from 312 bc to 64 bc. The population would have at least doubled in his time. Kasif the great (talk) 18:52, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

I do not care what your opinion is. I seriously doubt Guinness is considered a reliable source. Following BRD would be best for you since all you seem to do is add contentious material based on no or unreliable sources. I would suggest you take your concerns to the talk page. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:54, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Battle of Hattin[edit]


If you look at battle of hattin number of crusader, they were 55,000 and not 20,000

Guy de lussignan was know for many time faking his stat

its time for you to understand that most of the christians stats are faked.

look at the french wikipedia version of this battle

Also for the siege of acre Garrison: 3000 killed or captured (2,700 saracen prisoners were killed by Richard Coeur de Lion.)

Richard Coeur de Lion as kill 2,700 sarasin prisionniers (captured) and like 300 child & womens

So we should precise that.

I suggest you take your concerns to the article talk page. You removed references and referenced information, whilst citing nothing but opinion. Wikipedia does not work that way. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:17, 23 August 2016 (UTC)


Such a gem.[26][27]. - LouisAragon (talk) 14:34, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Well, from 2013, shows Azerbaijan language with an Encyclopedia Iranica reference. Here is the quote:
  • "Among the Azeri poets of the 15th century mention should be made of Ḵaṭāʾi Tabrizi. He wrote a maṯnawi entitled Yusof wa Zoleyḵā, and dedicated it to the Aqqoyunlu Sultan Yaʿqub (r. 1478-90), who himself wrote poetry in Azeri Turkish." --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:44, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Yeah I had seen that one before, thanks for linking. I have no doubts that the Aq Qoyunlu rulers used an Oghuz Turkic language closest to the present-day Azerbaijani language mean. However, what I don't get is the constant reinstatement of the transliteration of the article in Latin script, not only in Azerbaijani, but also in Anatolian Turkish and Turkmen. Which is what the user in question is edit warring for. - LouisAragon (talk) 19:00, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
This information was removed by user:Hayk.arabaget , 25 November 2014. Who states this lie, "There wasn't anything about Azerbaijani language as an official one in Iranica online. Also we do not need Azerbaijani and Armenian names of this tribe."
Which is then changed by user:Cednel, 26 November 2014.
After Azerbaijan is re-added by an IP, user:Hayk.arabaget added citation needed tag. Ten minutes later user:Hayk.arabaget removes Azerbaijan again. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:04, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Good search. That's one of the first things that needs to get fixed then. But what do you think about the transliterations in the lede? Which one should it include, and which ones should be removed (looking at the current revision)? Any transliteration in Latin script would be, for a start, ridiculous to keep. - LouisAragon (talk) 19:13, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm not sure how that is decided. If we go according to the Safavid dynasty article then Azerbaijani should be included in the transliteration. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:52, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, such things are not "really" decided I thought initially myself as well. Such things are usually based on how many sock accounts/IP's a niche of users can bring in, lol. But, aight, I agree. I concur with the Safavid comparison. Btw, if you have the time, please share your opinion about this (related) matter on Doug's talk page. It could be of proper use in the future. - LouisAragon (talk) 02:11, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
I reverted this ambiguous/weird change of sourced content btw.[28] - LouisAragon (talk) 20:20, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXXV, September 2016[edit]

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Oh, forgot to send the other PDF file in the mail. Just sent it in the one right after. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:43, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Military history WikiProject coordinator election[edit]

Greetings from the Military history WikiProject! Elections for the Military history WikiProject Coordinators are currently underway, and as a member of the WikiProject you are cordially invited to take part by casting your vote(s) for the candidates on the election page. This year's election will conclude at 23:59 UTC 23 September. For the Coordinators, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 06:00, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

The Great Seljuk Empire[edit]

The book has arrived in my local library and I'm reading it. Thanks for the recommendation. Excellent book, by Professor Peacock, who I know worked on the Seljuks of Rum which I read only one chapter of it. This book is part of the The Edinburgh History of the Islamic Empires, and after finishing this I might pick up some more in the future. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 23:54, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Mentioned concerns[edit]

More canvassing (just) resulted in this change. - LouisAragon (talk) 02:42, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

See, that's the difference, I add references/referenced information(regardless of my personal opinions*), they(Samak and his buddy Afshar Kan) are just here to promote their nationalistic/ethnic POV. Not to mention Afshar's canvassing violates AA2! --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:54, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
No truer words were ever spoken. In my opinion he [Samak] is a useful, kind and helpful editor, but he succumbs way too easily to all these sockpuppet who happen to speak "dialects which are mutually intelligble to Azerbaijani or are from the same ethnicity". If he'd have genuine concerns about such matters (even just the Turcoman-->Azerbaijanis change, f.e.), he'd engage in discussions, add/cite WP:RS sources, and wouldn't resort to such odd behaviour. But alas... - LouisAragon (talk) 04:50, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Feel free to leave a comment.[29] He's evading his block en masse. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:02, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Sorry for cluttering your talk page with information/material these days KB, but I wondered whether you could check the sources given to "back up" this part ("The Khanates were mostly ruled by Khans of Turkic (Azeri)[4] origin[5][6][7]") in the lede of this article -> Khanates of the Caucasus. I wonder whether they're WP:RS and actually back up the story, e.g. that they were "Azeri"). I know Swietochowski and Atkin are RS, but I can't view the pages in question. Thanks much - LouisAragon (talk) 00:40, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Well;

  • Encyclopaedia Britannica Online: History of Azerbaijan, makes no mention of the ethnicity of the khanates.
  • Russian Azerbaijan, 1905–1920 By Tadeusz Swietochowski page 272, there is no page 272 in this book.
  • Russia and Iran, 1780-1828 By Muriel Atkin, Page 16-20. Pages 17-19 are unviewable and page 11 would indicate that Turcoman is considered a separate entity from Azerbaijani(at least it appears that way in her writing).

Given time I might be able to expand on Atkin's view, but as of right now, none of those sources support that sentence.
This sentence;

  • "In a series of wars with Persia at the beginning of the nineteenth century, Russia gained the Azeri khanates north of the Araks River, which still forms the frontier between Azerbaijan and Iran." -- World and Its Peoples: Middle East, Western Asia, and Northern Africa. Marshall Cavendish Corporation, 2006. ISBN 0761475710. Стр. 751.

Makes it sound like there are other khanates besides the Azeri ones.
Oh, and I removed that Baddeley crap source. --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:55, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks much for the effort. I'll get to you more in depth about these findings myself as well. In the meantime, you might be interested in this. - LouisAragon (talk) 00:52, 25 September 2016 (UTC)