User talk:Kwamikagami/Automated archive

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a phrase i want to learn.[edit]

How do u say ."Angel from the snow"thanks. Michaburt (talk) 16:24, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

You mean a snow angel? — kwami (talk) 02:21, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

!Kung language[edit]

Hi Kwami. Firstly, all the best for the new year. I see that the article !Kung language mentions South Africa in the infobox (added by you long after the other three countries) and also in the text, but not in the intro. What I actually want clarity on is whether these later additions on the !Kung in South Africa refer to indegenous South African San or whether these are the San from Angola and Namibia who were withdrawn from those countries by the South African military for fear of reprisals for collaborating with the SA army against the MPLA and SWAPO. Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 01:05, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

The latter. "Northern Khoisan" wasn't originally spoken that far south. — kwami (talk) 02:38, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

To prevent ethnocentric edits[edit]

Dear Kwamikagami, thanks for your attention to this dispute. Unfortunately some users are trying to achieve ambitious ethnocentric aims and not historically-verified and documented facts are seeking especially in case of so-called the Greater Kurdistan territory. Our goal in free encyclopedia is to promote realistic and not ethnocentric knowledge. I provided some valid citations and sources to discuss but they were moved several times by the user Gomada.
Another falsifying and WP:POVPUSH objective evidence is in cases of Feyli people page [1] and their language [2] which was converted to Feyli Kurds and Southern Kurdish language by this users Oblivious to hot discussions and dispute over their Lurish or Kurdish identity. I hope we find a solution for this dispute. I proposed a move requset to convert these pages to their original names Feyli People and Feyli language and not Feyli Lurs to discuss this pages more honestly. You can see many opposition views over these pages in their talk section.
Best regards.--Shadegan (talk) 17:58, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
I moved to "Feyli people" pending resolution of the dispute, but "Southern Kurdish" is the COMMONNAME in the lit so that stays. Whether the people are Kurds is irrelevant to whether the language is Kurdish. — kwami (talk) 02:45, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Dear admin, hello and thank you for your attention. But due to inserting two empty brackets, the edit has been undid by another administrator. Please have another looking to this page. Best Regards--Shadegan (talk) 12:50, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami:' Unfortunately your warnings and edits has resulted in widespread ethnocentric and ambitious edits by some vandal users. I waited for your judge about the dispute pages but they were completely reverted and deviated by ethnocentric edits. Please pay attention to these pages. Best--Shadegan (talk) 21:03, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Dai dai shogi[edit]

I notice that Japanese Wikipedia has added some footnotes quoting the original Edo-era documents, so I've written stuff at Talk:Dai dai shogi#some of the alternate piece moves. Hopefully my translation and interpretation are not those of a blind idiot (although that would make a reasonable name for a shogi-variant piece). It is to confirm this that I write to you! ^_^

Regarding gameplay, though, I did give this and maka-dai-dai a try. The latter is more playable, but both are ridiculous IMHO. The Chess Variant Pages has also finally added articles about the shogi variants, but even they do not cover tai shogi, and their article on taikyoku shogi is only directly quoted from that Japanese book published about it. (I assume tai stopped being impressive when taikyoku was invented. Neither is the largest chess variant anymore, given the existence of 16×16×16 chess since 1996.) Double sharp (talk) 16:37, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

P.S. I sometimes use Betza's notation for piece movements. The link gives an explanation. Double sharp (talk) 16:43, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Nomination of Bugi language (Papuan) for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Bugi language (Papuan) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bugi language (Papuan) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. -- Tavix (talk) 19:56, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


Trophy.png Enlighten

Hello, I understand you are from Japan and not a native of India. I want to know the reasons for which you have deleted the authentic Kannada language native speakers map added by me. No less valid reason is acceptable and can hide the facts for long. Truth alone shall always triumph no matter how hard the efforts made to hide it are! Satyameva Jayate. Love from Karnataka and India. Cheers NitinBhargava2016 (talk) 14:47, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi kwami, I'm against your removing of my articles of Kannada language native speakers map and their total population. As far as its rank among world language speakers is concerned, its not a problem to me. I am saying this as I am neutral to the topic and only in favour of the truth, not blindly relying on some university's flawed linguistic maps rather than observing the ground truths. I am going to accept only valid reasons for removing my maps. If you are not ready to put back my maps, then the current flawed version of Kannada native speakers map on wiki must also be immediately removed as its not based on ground realities[PS: Columbia university study reference is not a proof of ground reality]. I have visited and interacted with people in all these areas. Also, the Kannada population of 50 million is based on 2015 Government census estimates and not a mere 40 million of 2001! If you are not ready to update this population, then at least year 2001 - 40 million should be mentioned along with year 2015 - 50 million speakers, which has highly valid references. I'm ready for a healthy scholarly debate based on the ground realities. I invite you to India to visit these areas, know the lingua-franca of the true native speakers of these regions considering that hundreds of thousands have migrated to the border regions of Kannada native speakers as economic/social migrants in 19th and 20th centuries and it continues unabated till date! Cheers, NitinBhargava2016 (talk) 15:17, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Sources. We go by reliable sources. For linguistic info, you need linguistic sources, not whatever you can cherry-pick off the internet to maximize the population. — kwami (talk) 01:37, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
As for the "ground realities", @NitinBhargava2016: might find WP:OR useful. There must be reliable sources out there, right? Uanfala (talk) 01:48, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Uanfala, What do you mean by your comment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by NitinBhargava2016 (talkcontribs) 17:21, 12 February 2016

If you use your own observations, that will be original research. And you can't use that as a source on wikipedia. You need sources that are already published. You might find WP:SOURCE useful. Also, please remember to indent your comments on talk pages. Thanks. Uanfala (talk) 21:18, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi, As far as the Kannada native speakers map is concerned, its based on my research of having visited the border regions of Kannada speaking areas and Karnataka and on 'ground realities'. No one is cherry-picking stuff off the Internet here. Forget the issue about population or even the idea of maximising it. However, the Kannada native speakers map is based on facts and ground realities.

Let me explain the nature of the so called 'reliable sources' of linguistics for linguistic information on which Wikipedia's 'masters' depend on :

The current map of Kannada excludes following Kannada speaking regions from North West (Karwar) to South West (Kasaragod) in clockwise order : Gokarna, Ankola, Karwar, Belagavi, Hukkeri, Gadhinglaj, Sankeshwar, Saundalaga, Chikkodi, Kagal, Hupari, IchalKaranji, Kurundwad, Shirol, Arag, Lingnoor, Athani, Jath, Nandeshwar, Mangalwedha, Solapur, Naldurg, Murum, Belamb, Omerga, Bhalki, Aurad, Degloor, Madanoor, West Bodhan, Hunsa, Bichkunda, Jukkal, Kangti, Narayankhed, Zahirabad, Kohir, Malchalma, West Tandur(Karankote, Nawandgi), Utkoor, Ujjelli, West Makthal, Maganur, Macharla, Sindanur, Yemmiganur, Pattikonda, Adoni, Alur, Aspari, Guntakal, Vajrakarur, Pennar Ahobila, Ballari, Rayadurga, Kalyandurga, Roddam, Parigi, Madakasira, Hindupur, Lepakshi, Gudibande, Gauribidanur, Chikkaballapur, Sidlaghatta, Kolar, Malur, Bangarapet, South West of - Bagepalli, Chintamani, Srinivasapur taluks, West Mulbagal, Kolar Gold Fields, South West Kuppam, Hosur, North West Krishnagiri, Maharajakade, Vepanahalli, Marandahalli, Denkanikote, Male Mahadeshwarabetta of Kollegal, Hogenakal, Biligundla, Thalli, Anchetty, Rayakote, Burgur, Gundri, Sujjal Kere, Germala, Hasanur, Thalavadi, Ittare, entire Nilgiris plateau, Kotagiri, Coonoor, Ooty, Gudalur, Attappadi, Silent Valley National Park, Amarambala wildlife sanctuary hills, Kakkadampoyil North hills, entire Wayanad plateau, Mananthavadi, Kalpetta, Sultan Battery, Kodagu district (here Kannada is spoken along with Kodava Takk in Madikeri, Virajpet and Ponnampet 'Hobli's; elsewhere only Kannada is spoken), Kasaragod district up to Kanhangad (Hosdurga) and Dakshin Kannada districts (here Kannada is spoken along with Tulu).

The map misses South half of Chikkamagalur district, entire Hassan district, Kodagu district, South West of Mysore and Chamarajanagar districts which are the core of Achcha (pure) Kannada speaking regions! Other Kannada regions excluded from the map are : East Pavagada taluk, Gurumatkal of Yadgir district, Bidar, Raichur, Ballari and Belagavi cities also! Nilgiris, Wayanad district. Mantralaya, Hindupur, West Penukonda, etc.,

Reference :,

If you just want to dismiss this detailed information as some lengthy stuff unworthy of examining and incorporating it in the wiki article, please go ahead! One can only be sorry for such sad state of affairs at Wikipedia and apathy towards the truth. If you want reliable sources as reference for this information, I may not be able to provide them as Justice Mahajan Committee report is not available on-line and is protected by copyrights and is only in the form of written material in books.

File:Kannada native speakers.PNG
Kannada native speakers

Update these areas in the map soon, else let Wikipedia lose completely its already eroding credibility! NitinBhargava2016 (talk) 09:38, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Sources cited in articles don't need to be online or copyright-free. Uanfala (talk) 11:11, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Uanfala, Then can you be of some help by reinstating my map on Kannada native speakers back?NitinBhargava2016 (talk) 17:24, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Reports by justices are not reliable sources. Nor are articles in journals published in 1836 reliable indicators of contemporary demographics. I suggest you find contemporary reliable secondary sources that back up your map. --regentspark (comment) 21:32, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Under construction/Rutgers[edit]

Ambox warning blue.svgTemplate:Under construction/Rutgers has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Ricky81682 (talk) 10:10, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Sunset Western Garden Book[edit]

Hi there, this may seem silly to bring up now, but back in 2009, on the Tupelo page, you added a reference to Sunset Western Garden Book, 1995:606–607 with your edit here. Do you still have the book? We were wondering if the book actually applies the pepperidge tree common name to the the genus Nyssa or merely to the species Nyssa sylvatica.

I removed your reference and the pepperidge tree common name because I believe them to be botanically inaccurate for describing the entire Nyssa genus considering that other editions of the book only describe at the species level. I have been criticized for doing so since I don't have access to the exact edition you cited, though I do have access to other editions. Since you cited the book and I am wondering if you can tell us if Sunset Western Garden Book 1995:606-607 is referring to the actual genus or just the species. Or otherwise, are comfortable with the modifications and the current state of Tupelo? Thanks.--MCEllis (talk) 17:44, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Now it occurs to me you may have only been using Sunset Western Garden Book for its pronunciation guide regarding the Tupelo and Nyssa names, rather than as a botanical reference. While my concern was primarily fixing the botanical inaccuracies of the first sentence which was largely unchanged since your edits in 2009.--MCEllis (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
I reverted my accidental removal of your citation. It is next to the pronunciation on the Tupelo page as you originally intended. My mistake. I originally thought it was being used to reference an inaccurate common name.--MCEllis (talk) 18:32, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

No problem! — kwami (talk) 00:39, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Multi-racial Akans/Ashanti people[edit]

Hi Kwami, my name is Kwabena and I live in Southern California. I notice that on every article dealing with Ghanaians, Akans, and Ashantis, you seem to always put mutli-racial people on. Stop It. Mixed Ghanaians are NOT representative of a population of millions. Thanks. -Kwabena. Yellowfiver (talk) 18:24, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Can you link me to an offending edit? I haven't edited a Ghanaian article in years except to merge a content fork. — kwami (talk) 21:12, 26 February 2016 (UTC)


Hey there! I'm curious why you merged the Macro-Yaeyama language group with Southern Ryukyuan and replaced the terminology cited in The Handbook of Ryukyuan Languages. In the text, the authors were very clear that a distinction must be made between Macro-Yaeyama languages and other Southern Ryukyuan languages, and I therefore thought it should receive its own page and linguistic family tier in the infobox. Please let me know what I'm missing so I can improve my future linguistics edits. Cheers! — Lrschneider (talk) 05:51, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi. If the Handbook uses it, that's fine. Revert my merge if you like. (I thought maybe it was a Glottolog name, which often aren't used outside Glottolog.) It's weird to have such an undeveloped article for S. Ryukyuan, and since a comparison is being made w Miyako, I thought that would be a good place (and a more visible place) for it, but it doesn't really matter. — kwami (talk) 02:41, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

File:Micmac pater noster.jpg listed for discussion[edit]


A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Micmac pater noster.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for discussion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 14:09, 5 March 2016 (UTC)


Can ypu please take a look at the pages found in Wikipedia:CHECKWIKI/016 dump and deal with the weird unicode characters? -- Magioladitis (talk) 11:25, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

That should be it. One was a copy error, I think; another a false claim, and the last (on the PUA page) pointless. Might've missed some on the last. — kwami (talk) 05:48, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Please take a look at these pages too:

@Magioladitis: I don't see anything.
Sorry, can't access the refs so can't fix. The second is HIF-1alpha, but I can't tell if the suffix is superscripted or subscripted.

-- Magioladitis (talk) 08:46, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Done. Was a duplicate ref. — kwami (talk) 04:38, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

help me[edit]

Please, help me. Personal atack on the my user page and Eskimo page. Please --Kmoksy (talk) 13:23, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

The vandal has already been blocked. — kwami (talk) 23:51, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Mandarin (linguistics) listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Mandarin (linguistics). Since you had some involvement with the Mandarin (linguistics) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Si Trew (talk) 19:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Help me[edit]

Help me. For terroristic personal atacks on my talk page. --Kmoksy (talk) 20:48, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Template warnings are not "terroristic". —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 21:14, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
Yes; also, I need a clearer description of what you're having a problem with. — kwami (talk) 01:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Whistled language[edit]

I was just looking at the article on Whistled language. I had never before heard of a whistled language. I have a few questions:

1) In the lead I found this sentence:

  • English speakers experience something similar when they listen to sine-wave speech.

I'm wondering if more could be said so that this makes sense to interested English speakers.

2) I notice that there is no audio file so that readers could hear a sample of whistled speech. It would be nice if one or more could be found to add.

3) Do you think this article is too technical to allow for the possibility of improvement if the article were selected as one of the "Today's Articles for Improvement", or should it be left to linguistics experts? I notice there is a tag at the top of the article that has been there since 2009.  – Corinne (talk) 02:05, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi Corinne. I have no idea what "sine-wave speech" is. Without a link to an explanatory article, that should probably be deleted.
I suspect there must be audio samples of West African whistled speech available, since it's used by probably over a hundred million people, but I don't have any myself. Some Nigerian radio stations use e.g. whistled Yoruba for their call signs and slogans, or at least they used to, so it's not like whistled speech is obscure.
I see that I'm at least partly responsible for the current title. IMO it really should be moved back to whistled speech. The current title and lead suggest that there are whistled languages, as in languages that rely on whistling the way ASL relies on signing. There are not, there are just spoken languages conveyed via whistling.
As for the article being technical, as with anything you just need to understand the material you're using. The interesting aspects IMO are the social ones, which don't require much linguistics. It doesn't look like much has been done recently. — kwami (talk) 01:41, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Moundadan Chetty language article deleted[edit]

Hi Kwami, Can you please let me know the reason for which my article on Moundadan Chetty language deleted? It had all the valid references. It is a separate language similar to Badaga and Kannada. If you consider it not to be a separate language which has ISO request reference and a detailed case study also as references, what else is it? A dialect of some known language? What are the valid references to prove this? Please enlighten me. Also, please let me know your opinion about Edanadan Chetty language which is not the same as Moundadan Chetty or Wayanadan Chetty languages. Thanks!–NitinBhargava2016 (talk) 02:43, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Erina language[edit]

The Erina language article looks superficially plausible. But I can't find anything about it in the article links or on the internet; so like another user I am beginning to suspect it is a hoax. Do you know anything about it? —teb728 t c 08:59, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Phonetics in Basque article[edit]

Hi Kwamikagami, there is this Biscayan dialect article with a clarification tag, I wonder if you could add the phonetics for those sounds, since you seem to be familiar with Basque phonology and phonetics. That would be helpful, regards Iñaki LL (talk) 21:38, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi. Can't add a phonetic transcription without a ref to that dialect in particular, as it might differ from others. But the real problem there is that I can't parse the sentence. I have no idea which converge to what. — kwami (talk) 21:37, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Hi Kwamigami, ummm, is it about the Basque orthographical system? Basically it is about tx (Spanish ch) and tz (like in English "its"), and x (like English "share") and z (voiceless, = French intervocalic "ss" like in poisson), but letters spelled "s" and "ts" is a bit more tricky, something in between "tz" and "tx", voiceless. I do not know if I explained myself. Iñaki LL (talk) 22:34, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Voiced and voiceless[edit]

Hi Kwami. Neither Voice (phonetics) or Voicelessness cites simple examples for the 'common reader' to make sense of. There are references to "obstruents" and "pairs", but at no point do we make it clear which are which — using pairs that are obvious to the average reader such as [d and t], [b and p] instead of more obscure examples invloving [dj] etc.. So, even though it is not (always) that clear-cut, can't we add something to the effect that "simplistically speaking/ traditionally, the voiced are..... and the voiceless are ...? Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 16:24, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Of course. There are (or were) simple examples on WP, I remember seeing them, but they may be in the articles specifically for English. Not sure if you're asking me for permission to change the article (sometimes people do) or for an explanation. — kwami (talk) 02:56, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
Hi Kwami. Thanks for your reply. I primarily wanted to hear your take on this because things change and I might not be aware of latest theories/ findings/ trends etc. When I studied linguistics in 82-86, voiced and voiceless were clear opposites. Because the middle ground seems to have since vanished I was not sure if obvious examples such as [d and t], [b and p] are not longer accepted because of possible grey areas. If I failed to make myself understood (very likely), don't worry about it, I will come back to it at a later stage. Thanks. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 19:15, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
IPA [p] and [b] are distinguished by voicing, but English /p/ and /b/ are not exactly [p] and [b], or at least not always. (I just heard a song where "game" is pronounced with a [k] when stressed, with a [g] when not.) As long as it's clear that English and e.g. Spanish /p, b/ aren't identical, and that English isn't the best illustration, that should probably be good enough. Plus, I think English fricatives are pretty-much distinguished by voicing, and since it's easier to feel the buzz in your throat with [z] than with [b], that may be the way to go. — kwami (talk) 02:57, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. Deviating from the topic, speaking of "game" with a [k], white South African - primed by the written form, pronounce "Shaka" as "shah-ker" and will not 'notice' that Nguni speaker actually say "Shaah-gah" even if they hear it repeatedly, unless it is deliberately brought to their attention. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 23:51, 18 April 2016 (UTC)


Hi Kwami, The correct classification as per Harvey (2008) is Yirram (Jaminjung, Ngaliwurru, Nungali), Jingulu, and Ngurlun (Ngarnka, Binbinka, Gudanji, Wambaya). It has been suggested that Jaminjung and Ngaliwurru are closely related and that Binbinka, Gudanji and Wambaya are also closely related. I use the term 'language', because that is the appropriate term for speakers and owners of these languages. The ISO and derived codes for Australian languages are infamously incorrect. Ngarnka and Gudanji are not in a dialectal relationship, and no one has suggested this for fifty years or so (cf. any of the references on the page). This is why I deleted the ISO and glottolog codes. They're not very useful at all in this context, and actually serve to obscure the linguistic relationships between the languages. Please delete them again. West Barkly is an old term that is no longer considered genetic. It's a geographic grouping of Jingulu and Ngurlun. Please undo your adjustments. If you have relevant sources that support your case, let me know. Regards, David. — Preceding unsigned comment added by David Osgarby (talkcontribs) 05:45, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi David. No, I don't doubt your sources, but we should be consistent. The Mirngi etc. articles shouldn't contradict this one. Also, if the ISO or Glottolog codes are poorly defined we still need to report them as they are, though of course we can say how they're wrong. Sorry, no time tonight to fix things up. Will continue when I can. — kwami (talk) 06:12, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi Kwami. I see you've changed the name of the entire article now from Ngarnka to Ngarnji, you've changed the alternative names around, and you've adjusted the information panel on the right as well. All of these adjustments are incorrect. Please revert all of these changes, as my original information was very precise about language names and ethnonyms. It is a complex distinction for Australian languages, and much of the information about these languages is unpublished, so while I'm not sure what your sources are, I know they are not up to date. The language name is Ngarnka and the enthnicity is Ngarnji (the distinction being in the gender of the noun: neuter vs. masculine). It is a similar distinction between, the neighbouring language Jingulu, spoken by the Jingili people (again, neuter vs. masculine). I'm not sure why you are making edits to this article. Do not feel the need to fix things up with this article in future, beyond reverting the changes you have made. Regards, David. — Preceding unsigned comment added by David Osgarby (talkcontribs) 09:58, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, it's certainly necessary to correct errors like with the ISO code. As for the name, if the ethnicity is Ngarnji, then it's the Ngarnji language. That's the default for naming language articles on WP. — kwami (talk) 03:39, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Phonetic language[edit]

I've heard this term ages ago, in an informal conversation like this one [3], and naively thought you might be interested in writing something on it or creating a redirect. Regards. Materialscientist (talk) 01:06, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I think we have an article for that. I'll check for a rd tomorrow maybe. THanks. — kwami (talk) 03:41, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

A request[edit]

Do you have an address for email, please? I'm looking for someone with expertise in rongorongo. Iridia (talk) 19:41, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Sure. Just click 'email this user' on the left of this page. — kwami (talk) 04:41, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

New hyphen discussion[edit]

We've got a new hyphen discussion at Talk:Red giant branch#Requested move 28 April 2016. --JorisvS (talk) 18:44, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

George Santayana[edit]

Hello, Kwami -- There has been a tag with just "Pronunciation?" in the first line of the article George Santayana for a long time. If you have time, could you either supply the requested pronunciation guide or link to one, or delete the tag if you think no guide is necessary? It looks bad there at the beginning of the article. Thanks.  – Corinne (talk) 01:45, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Conduct of another user[edit]

Hi, I noticed that you interacted with ZH8000 some time ago. So did I recently, and I found their contributions and method of interaction with others questionable at best. I'm considering whether to initiate a discussion with them about this, and if need be, a community discussion. Would you be interested in participating in these discussions? Regards,  Sandstein  17:25, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Leco language[edit]

You might be able to improve on my recent edits to the article "Leco language".
Wavelength (talk) 22:59, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

List of multilingual websites[edit]

You might benefit from the article "List of multilingual websites".
Wavelength (talk) 23:00, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Open access book[edit]

Hi Kwami,
please have a look at for the inclusion of the latest Language Science Press volume. IMHO the LangSci books are a useful complement for Wikipedia articles on languages in general, but I have a conflict of interest and are a bit hesitant to include them. For Yakkha and Mauwake, things were beyond doubt, but Siouan is only 99% in my view. I would appreciate if a principled solution how to deal with this could be found. Jasy jatere (talk) 12:43, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

200B and PUA[edit]

Can you please take a look at these two pages?

The first one has zero-width spacing (200B) and the other one characters in PUA. Can you please deal with these pages? -- Magioladitis (talk) 06:41, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Bangbay language listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Bangbay language. Since you had some involvement with the Bangbay language redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Stefan2 (talk) 21:36, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Boro language (Atlantic-Congo) listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Boro language (Atlantic-Congo). Since you had some involvement with the Boro language (Atlantic-Congo) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Stefan2 (talk) 21:36, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you![edit]

Cup-o-coffee-simple.svg It's always a pleasure to come across a language page you've improved! Loztron (talk) 18:51, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Reference errors on 1 July[edit]

Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that an edit performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. It is as follows:

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, ReferenceBot (talk) 00:18, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Request for Comment[edit]

Hi. Please write your opinion here:

Thanks. --Wario-Man (talk) 14:41, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

The four new superheavy element names[edit]

I'd have expected something like [ˈtɛnᵻsiːn] or [ˈtɛnᵻsaɪn] for tennessine, following the stress of Tennessee, as well as iodine and astatine (the other trisyllabic halogens). Moscovium and oganesson seem fine, but I admit to being really uncertain as to how nihonium is supposed to be pronounced: I can't seem to make up my mind whether that o is supposed to be [oʊ] or [ɒ] in English. Double sharp (talk) 13:10, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Nihonium is presumably the same as Nipponian. Tennessine is just following Anglo-Latin conventions. Could easily be irregular. Let's see how people work it out when the name's accepted. — kwami (talk) 00:56, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
I found these search results on YouTube.Wavelength (talk) 01:06, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
I did not find pronunciations at, but that page has a link to, which has a link to, which has a link for downloading "the full text of the Provisional Recommendation" (PDF 273 kB; 9 pages), which might have pronunciations.Wavelength (talk) 02:42, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Unfortunately, it doesn't. I assume it will be like Sigurd Hoffmann once said on the pronunciation of copernicium: individuals will decide on it, even if they disagree. In that case, Periodic Videos (as linked on YouTube) should be an adequate source, giving the pronunciation of a renowned chemist. Double sharp (talk) 03:37, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
This guy uses Double Sharp's for tennessine and mine for the others, except that he makes the first o of oganesson long. That could be a British thing, since the brits often lack trisyllabic laxing, but it seems he has a short o in the person's name. So maybe for him it's short o in normal speech and long o when enunciating pedagogically? That's a common enough phenomenon. So I changed tennessine but left oganesson as is.
That's the best Youtube source I could fine. — kwami (talk) 20:30, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
One might contact IUPAC ( for its recommendations.Wavelength (talk) 14:56, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

On a related note, since you made the Wikimedia Uus-TableImage.png image, could you make the Nh-TableImage.png, Mc-TableImage.png, Ts-TableImage.png and Og-TableImage.png images? Urhixidur (talk) 00:17, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I just updated it, but sure, I could do that. But we don't use that file anymore, do we? Could you show me the files you want updated directly so I'm sure to start from the right version? — kwami (talk) 07:13, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm asking for new images, not updates. They are used by the Wiktionaries, for instance. Urhixidur (talk) 15:08, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Okay. Done. — kwami (talk) 04:52, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

userpage quote[edit]

I removed the puns from "Mikebrown" since they contained encyclopedic errors, per "talk:11714 Mikebrown." You might want to update your link to the old wikipage version instead: Nicole Sharp (talk) 06:17, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Washo language[edit]

Kwami, if you have a minute, would you look at Washo language? There's a guy there who is using his misinterpretation of a page out of Mithun's survey to mess with the consonant chart and replace a glottalized c' with ć because he can't correctly read the poor photocopy on a web site and thinks that's what a c with a superimposed apostrophe is. He refuses to read the Talk page and is edit warring. Thanks. --Taivo (talk) 20:41, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Added my two bits, but looks like it's been resolved. — kwami (talk) 05:19, 22 August 2016 (UTC)


  • They're not errors. En dashes are used in several linguistic publications where two branches or places are joined to form a family name. Hyphens are used for prefixes etc. Of course, some typesetters don't bother with the difference, but on WP we do. — kwami (talk) 07:31, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
    • I thought of that, and while the en dash is correct in some instances, in the two examples above the hyphen instead should be the correct character. E.g. the usage is "(Uralic-Yukaghir) languages" (hyphenated, indicating Uralic and Yukaghir combined) and not "Uralic–(Yukaghir languages)" (dashed, indicating a Uralic [Uralization] prefix to Yukaghir), as opposed to "Trans–([New Guinea] languages)" (dashed) instead of "(Trans-New) (Guinea languages)" (hyphenated). Nicole Sharp (talk) 08:02, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
      • There are two primary motivations for using an en dash in names like this. One is as you describe: Post–Cold War [i.e., post-(cold war) as opposed to (post-cold) war]. The other is when joining two equivalent elements into a unit, as in "French–German border". Many language families fit the latter pattern (e.g. Niger–Congo but not Nilo-Saharan, where the two elements are not equivalent grammatically). There was a discussion about this a couple years ago, with examples of professional publications that follow such usage. — kwami (talk) 08:12, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
        • Please also see the discussion at "Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Improper moves by User:Nicole_Sharp." I would be willing to defer to your judgment in the matter, but if you can post a link with a citation, or if you know of a journal that follows such usage that I could look up at my university library, I would feel a lot better. However, I would still argue that the bigger problem is technical as opposed to grammatical, since the dash is a non-US-ASCII special character. The same problem exists with curly quotes versus straight quotes, since curly quotes are special characters and so cannot always be identified as quotes/apostrophes. Wikipedia is more than just a website—since it is free and open-source, it can be archived and redistributed in a wide variety of formats, which can create technical complications if there is an unnecessary overuse of special characters. Nicole Sharp (talk) 08:53, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
          • Don't recall offhand, and out of town. But you bring up a larger issue re. restricting ourselves to ASCII characters. In general we don't do that. True, we don't use curly quotes, but there's no semantic difference involved (except for things like the okina, where we do use the curly variant, and hamza vs 'ayn etc.). There is a semantic difference between the hyphen and the en dash, and per your argument we should use e.g. "---" rather than "—" in our articles. But we don't: There is no general preference for ASCII on WP. There is an interminable argument about using diacritics in people's names, but that's more an issue of being true to the original vs reflecting English-language media than about ASCII. — kwami (talk) 10:11, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
            • Either way, the most important thing I think is consistency. I would suggest creating an official list of all language-family names that should use the en dash, and then programming a bot to go through Wikipedia with a find-and-replace for any instances using the hyphen instead. I have no idea how wikibots work, so this would have to be a task for someone more technically skilled than myself. I have seen both characters in use on pages, and not all search engines can tell the difference between the two spellings (dash versus hyphen). Nicole Sharp (talk) 20:14, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
            • Please also note that the en-dashed spellings need to be fixed on Wiktionary as well then, e.g. "wiktionary:Niger-Congo" and "wiktionary:Eskimo-Aleut." Nicole Sharp (talk) 20:14, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
            • I have been thinking, and I still think the en dash is not correct in instances such as "Eskimo-Aleut." For example, "Antigua-Barbuda" (hyphenated) is a shortened name for the country of Antigua and Barbuda, which consists of the islands of Antigua and Barbuda. "Antigua–Barbuda" (dashed) would refer to relations between the two islands, which are both located within the same country of Antigua-Barbuda (hyphenated). Likewise, "Eskimo–Aleut" (dashed) should refer to relations between (contemporary/historical) Inuit-speaking (Eskimo-speaking) peoples and Aleut-speaking peoples, and not the (theoretical/prehistorical) unified language group of Eskimo-Aleut (e.g. Proto-Eskimo-Aleut). "Niger–Congo" (dashed) versus "Niger-Congo" (hyphenated) doesn't have the same possibility of confusion since the name refers not to specific language subgroups but to the general area between and around the Niger and Congo Rivers. I would say that the en dash in these cases implies an apposition or opposition of entities (e.g. between them), whereas the hyphen implies a superposition of entities (a combination into a new unified entity). Nicole Sharp (talk) 00:24, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Changes made on Tat people (Caucasus) and Tat language (Caucasus)[edit]

Hi Kwami, what do you think about these changes made? [4][5][6] Do you think that the new references brought in merit for all the previous references/content to be deleted? Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 03:35, 11 September 2016 (UTC)


Before I forget; if we were to give a transliteration of the name Orontes I for the lede of the very same article, would it be, according to Schmitt (2002);
"Orontes I (Ancient Greek: Oróntēs, Aroandēs, from "Old Persian: *Arvanta) was a (...)"
What do you think? Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 05:53, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Recent POV pushing[edit]

Especially with this edit, Nanshu is making sweeping changes to deRyukyuanize a huge number of articles, removes sourced statements that don't support his POV, inserting his own romanizations, and removing the word "Ryukyu" in its entirety. I am going to revert most-if-not-all of it, and will probably have to bring it to ANI. I'm just letting you know since you were involved with a lot of the Ryukyuan language articles. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 02:46, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Aka-Cari Language[edit]

I just spent some time on this very impressive page and cannot discover why it is tagged as having the same name for different references. I can no longer find the references that are in question but that is another issue. It does look like there are two references in each citation and that is when I decided to try and go to the original editor.

I notice that you did a bit of editing on the date that these references were accessed (July 12, 2012), so I am hoping that you might have some insight.

I would welcome any input from an editor of your experience. Thank youBobdog54 (talk) 18:56, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Just a repeated ref, but w the formatting different enough that our bots couldn't fix it. — kwami (talk) 03:55, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Dialects/languages of Punjab[edit]

Hi Kwami. Not sure if you want to get into this but there are move requests at Saraiki dialect, Pothohari dialect and Hindko dialect that are, at best, confusing. Just wondering if you have an informed opinion. Thanks. --regentspark (comment) 01:41, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

It had been extended edit war by Uanfala [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] .

  • Despite nearly 10 Wikipedians not agreeing with his views on talk pages of effected Talk pages.
  • He cherry picks and tries to define dialects in to Language.
  • Wikipedia is not a dictionary.
  • Wikipedians can not cherry pick.
  • Wikipedians can not impose a point a view.
  • Wikipedians move with consensus.
  • Wikipedia is an informational project. It can not misguide about language hierarchy.
  • Only standardisation of few dialects can not make them language. However few follow this rule for defining Hindko Saraiki Potwari as language. He cherry pick those.
  • Even those "few" along with "opposite others" have details whether "Explicit" or "Implicit" which demonstrate a common hierarchy Language Family: Indo European, Branch: Indo Iranian, Sub branch: Indo Aryan, Macro Language: Punjabi, Language: Western Punjabi, Dialects: Potwari Hindko Saraiki and many others, Sub dialects: North Hindko South Hindko.
  • All such linguistic sources are mentioned / added by many wikipedians.
  • If we accept Uanfala version of "cherry pick" and "Defining" then we will end up with a dilemma mentioned by User Flipro on this move request for 30 odd Punjabi dialects [12].

Time to report User Uanfala for topic ban for Cherry picking, Forum shoping, Edit warring, ignoring talk page consensus on western punjabi diffrent dialect talk pages. Please you being a registered senior editor start the proceeding for Topic Ban and violation of 3Rs. (talk) 01:34, 2 November 2016 (UTC)₯€₠€₯

The above message was also posted on the talk pages of several other users, and it has already received responses on Andy Wang's and on Paine Ellsworth's. – Uanfala (talk) 10:09, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

2016-11 FYI[edit]

FYI: a (javascript required) and b. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:03, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Burun in Eastern Sudanic[edit]

Hi, the Burun languages on Wikipedia are classified as their own group within Nilotic. This is from Blench's (2012) proposed classification of Nilo-Saharan. As of 2016, Glottolog (2.7) puts them in Burun-Luo and Ethnologue (19) still maintains the older internal Luo classification. Since Blench, a lot linguists more specialised in Western Nilotic, including Torben Andersen who helped describe most of them, have maintained the Western Nilotic classification. (On a personal level, I think it may just be a graphical error on Blench's part. If you study the languages, it's clearly a very strange conclusion to jump to.) You seem to be the authority here, and having created the articles in the first place, I wanted to run it down with you first before I edit the individual language articles. -- Lestadii27 (talk) 16:17, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Please, go ahead and fix per the current lit. Just recap in the edit summary and maybe mention this on the article talk page so a year from now I don't forget this conversation and undo your changes.
Also, could you add a link to Burun in the first superior node in the classification that has an article, and remove it from where it's currently listed? Ideally, people should be able to find all language articles by browsing their family trees. (That is, you'd want to fix Nilotic, W.Nilotic, Burun, NBurun & SBurun -- info boxes for all of those, plus the subdivisions under Nilotic and the lang list under WNil. Also Template:Eastern Sudanic languages. Sorry if I'm being obvious, but people often overlook articles related to the ones they change so we end up contradicting ourselves.)
I wouldn't pay any attention to Ethnologue. We don't know where their classifications come from, and many are unreliable (though that's slowly being corrected). With Glottolog, you can check if your sources are more recent or more reliable and chose whichever you think best.
kwami (talk) 00:36, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
That's good, I'll get round to it. I did get your message, I just put the task off for a little. -- Lestadii27 (talk) 01:37, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Please be polite[edit]

Hello there, if you could not call contributions that you remove "BS" here that'd be great. @Yamla:.

BTW how was your holiday Yamla? See you soon (talk) 23:25, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't mean "BS" as an insult, but as a specific description. (See bullshit.) And, as far as I can tell, much of that contribution is bullshit. I may be wrong, but if so I'm wrong no matter which euphemism I might use. — kwami (talk) 03:49, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Oh the "good kind of BS", like if I were to scream "Ya cunt" at you but in an Australian way? (talk) 20:22, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
No idea what that means in Strine, so can't answer that. But I'm not fond of euphemisms. — kwami (talk) 01:47, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

defective scripts[edit]

Is this a concept? does anyone besides Geoffrey Sampson use this term? (talk) 21:57, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, including multiple authors in Daniels & Bright. I believe it's the standard term. (Though the point of script vs orthography should be reviewed.) — kwami (talk) 00:00, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Without looking at the references but looking at the talk page, I can't reconcile the fact this term is more of an opinion than a solid theory or characteristic. (talk) 05:03, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Which talk page?
I don't see how it's a matter of opinion. A script that does not have a way of writing vowels is a defective script. The (classical) Greek alphabet was defective because it had no way of representing all the vowels of classical Greek. So is a script designed for a language that has phonemic aspiration but that does not have a way of indicating aspiration. Sometimes defectiveness may be remedied with digraphs, diacritics, etc., which is where we get into defective orthographies vs defective scripts. — kwami (talk) 01:53, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
talk:defective script68.150.86.232 (talk) 03:23, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Kwamikagami. You have new messages at talk:defective script.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template. (talk) 03:32, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Guinea-Bissau Creole vs Upper Guinea Creole[edit]

Hi Kwani I wanted to repoint the articles in English and Portuguese, such that Upper Guinea Creole links to Crioulos da Alta Guiné and not to Crioulo da Guiné-Bissau. However I then saw that in en_WP there is only one article, titled "Upper Guinea Creole", but which is in fact about "Guinea-Bissau Creole". Then to make matters worse, I see here that they treat the two names as interchangeable.

"Upper Guinea Creole(*S*)" is the family, which includes "Guinea-Bissau Creole" and Cape Verdean Creole. The infobox on both pages already say this. Right now Upper Guinea Creole describes only "Guinea-Bissau Creole", saying that it is "closely related to Cape Verdean creole".

My thinking is to move Upper Guinea Creole to "Guinea-Bissau Creole", and redict Guinea-Bissau Creole language to "Guinea-Bissau Creole". That part I can do. However, we then need an article on "Upper Guinea CreoleS" (plural) and a fix on the wikidata page, which I am not familiar with. Your thoughts, please. Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 12:51, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

I see that there is already a Guinea-Bissau Creole (redirected) and a Guinea Creole (besides the Guinea-Bissau Creole language already mentioned). I am going to turn Guinea Creole into a disambiguation page. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 13:01, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Further to the above, I will work on the English of Crioulo de Casamança (Casamance Creole). Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 15:56, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

It looks like it might be best to turn the UGC page into a dab for both CVC and GBC, if it's true that the term is ambiguous. As for the family, we don't need a separate article if there isn't much to write. We can cover that info in our article on Portuguese creoles. It's a judgement call, depending on what you think would be most accessible and helpful to our readers. If you do create an article for the fam, the UCG page would presumably redirect to it.
The easiest way to create an article is to make a red link on a page, click on it, and start editing where it takes you. Or, if you don't have permission to do that and agree that the UGC page should be a rd to the family article, then after you move it to GBC (retaining the article history under the new name and leaving a rd), you can move the rd to the name for the family and then edit it into an appropriate article. If that doesn't work, ask and I or someone watching this page can start the new article for you.
kwami (talk) 00:21, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi. Actually, that (a dab page and Rds) is a much simpler immediate solution. Let's see if I can re-point things in the right direction. Thanks.

The only hurdle is to clear "Guinea-Bissau Creole" to make way for "Upper Guinea Creole". Do you have user rights to do that? Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 00:58, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Tagged it for deletion. Should happen within a day or two. — kwami (talk) 01:05, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 01:10, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
@Rui Gabriel Correia: You should comment on the GBC talk page where that should go, since it's got stuff on it and so maybe shouldn't be simply replaced by the main article talk page. An admin might not delete the rd if they don't know what to do w the talk page. — kwami (talk) 01:12, 15 November 2016 (UTC)


18th CES replaces water pipe, restores ground 140310-F-QQ371-138.jpg Golden Spade
Someone I know I can count on to clear the the rubble for others to be able to do their bit. May your spade never be blunt! Much appreciated. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 01:28, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Guinea-Bissau Creole[edit]

Hi Kwamikagami, I've restored the redirect Guinea-Bissau Creole for now. There is a requested move at Talk:Upper Guinea Creole that closed as "not moved" in 2015. Unless circumstances have changed, a db-move request is not completely uncontroversial. I recommend a full WP:RM discussion, i.e. {{subst:requested move|Guinea-Bissau Creole|reason=that article is about this topic; that name should be a rd to the family since it includes Cabo Verde Creole}} on the talk. Hope that makes sense; cheers — Andy W. (talk) 02:01, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Followed up at my talk — Andy W. (talk) 02:17, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Any idea if this is genuine[edit]

Any idea if this is genuine [13]? I have my doubts about the new editor who added this, can't seem to find any mention of Phupha language using a Cyrillic script (although there's very little info point blank, perhaps not surprising) and it seems a bit weird Jan Gebauer would somehow be involved. 17:57, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Just vandalism. The other changes are BS too. — kwami (talk) 20:59, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Ysolo listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Ysolo. Since you had some involvement with the Ysolo redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. —Mark Dominus (talk) 14:52, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Zulu tone classes[edit]

Back in 2010, you added a bit on the tone classes of Zulu nouns at Zulu grammar, which is still in the article more or less unchanged. I'm having a bit of trouble interpreting your description of the different classes. I've been reading Cope's Zulu Tonal Morphology and it seems like your description of the HL class (Cope's class IV) doesn't fit. Specifically, Cope gives this example of extension of a noun and the resulting tone pattern: bàfánà > bàfányànà > bàfànyányànà. Your edit stated "high on stressed syllable of longer words, followed by low", but should this be the antepenultimate syllable (syllable before the stress) instead? Cope's example seems to suggest so.

In the LHL class, there similarly seems to be a problem since the description "high on syllable after the stressed syllable in longer words" seems to imply that only the final syllable is low, whereas it's actually LH > LHL > LHLL in Cope, so the high is one syllable further from the end each time a syllable is added. It is not clear to me if a hypothetical 5-syllable stem would be LHLLL or LLHLL.

The description of the HHL class (Cope's class III) also seems off. Cope gives the sequence ísíkhwámá > ísíkhwànyánà, which would fit your description if it instead said simply "high on stressed syllable, followed by low". There's only ever one syllable after the stressed one, after all. The plural of this noun puzzles me in Cope's description, since it's ízìkhwàmá, with a missing high tone on the third syllable. Do you have any idea why this might be? CodeCat (talk) 22:10, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi. Sorry, I no longer have my source for that. I could have gotten it wrong. (I don't remember it being a very precise description, though my memory is vague.) So please correct if you like. Sorry, can't answer your question, though it's not uncommon to encounter typos in tone transcriptions. — kwami (talk) 03:57, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
What do you think of the current article? It's a lot more elaborate at least. CodeCat (talk) 16:33, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


Please visit dispute resolution notice board and participate a debate on saraiki dialect of Punjabi language which is poorly written by Uanfala as a separate language contradictory to RFC decision. AksheKumar (talk) 05:57, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Merry, merry![edit]

From the icy Canajian north; to you and yours! FWiW Bzuk (talk) 18:53, 26 December 2016 (UTC) Lights ablaze.JPG

Saraiki dialect[edit]

Your vote Brother ?

[14] (talk) 18:59, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

"Sinhala Braille" history[edit]

Hi, A while back, you wrote most of our article on "Sinhala Braille". I'm looking for sources about the creator(s) of that system and the article doesn't have much in the way of sources about that history, reliable or otherwise. Do you have any sources on that (in English or otherwise) that cite who the creator(s) were? Thanks! Hobit (talk) 17:48, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, no. I tried to include such info when I created the articles. What's there is all I could find. — kwami (talk) 23:00, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! Hobit (talk) 01:14, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Deletion discussion about Linguolabial trill[edit]

Hello, Kwamikagami,

I wanted to let you know that there's a discussion about whether Linguolabial trill should be deleted. Your comments are welcome at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Linguolabial trill .

If you're new to the process, articles for deletion is a group discussion (not a vote!) that usually lasts seven days. If you need it, there is a guide on how to contribute. Last but not least, you are highly encouraged to continue improving the article; just be sure not to remove the tag about the deletion nomination from the top.


Xcia0069 (talk) 14:19, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

File:1829 braille.jpg listed for discussion[edit]


A file that you uploaded or altered, File:1829 braille.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for discussion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. ~ Rob13Talk 20:13, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Pronunciation of Trojan asteroid names[edit]

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The article Pronunciation of Trojan asteroid names has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

This article does not mention a single source even though an unreferenced flag has been added more than three years ago. It is likely that there are no sources for many of the pronunciations in this article. Seeing as there are abundant Category:Lists of asteroids, nothing is lost when this article is deleted. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 11:50, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 11:55, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Pronunciation of asteroid names[edit]

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The article Pronunciation of asteroid names has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

This article does not mention a single source even though unreferenced and OR flags have been added more than six years ago. It is likely that there are no sources for many of the pronunciations in this article. Seeing as there are abundant Category:Lists of asteroids, nothing is lost when this article is deleted. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 11:48, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 11:55, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Problem with File:Pama-Nyungan and non-Pama-Nyungan.png[edit]

I'm just calling to your attention that when you simplified the file File:Pama-Nyungan and non-Pama-Nyungan.png, you inadvertently removed the state of Victoria (Australia)! Psiĥedelisto (talk) 15:18, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

good job![edit]

Kitten in a helmet.jpg

Hi! I'm a linguist working on african and polynesian languages, and lingwiki. I'm also involved in glottolog and other things. I just wanted to say thanks, I see what you do and it is good. Especially appreciate the exclusive economic zone map of the pacific. So, are you a linguist at a university somewhere?

Marshagreen (talk) 00:20, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

File:Pluto-map-hs-2010-06-a-faces-large.jpg listed for discussion[edit]


A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Pluto-map-hs-2010-06-a-faces-large.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for discussion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination.

ATTENTION: This is an automated, bot-generated message. This bot DID NOT nominate any file(s) for deletion; please refer to the page history of each individual file for details. Thanks, FastilyBot (talk) 23:50, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

A page you started (Nambya language) has been reviewed![edit]

Thanks for creating Nambya language, Kwamikagami!

Wikipedia editor BU Rob13 just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

Keep up the good work!

To reply, leave a comment on BU Rob13's talk page.

Learn more about page curation.

~ Rob13Talk 05:36, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

User:BU Rob13: I assume this message was automated because Kwamikagamicreated this article 5 years ago! — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:42, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
@MSGJ: Interesting bug in the page curation script. It was just recently converted from redirect to article, but the script thanks the creator not the actual person who made the new article. Weird. ~ Rob13Talk 15:55, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Wikitongues (website)[edit]

You may be interested in Wikitongues ( "Wikitongues founders and directors Daniel Bogre Udell and Frederico Andrade have embraced an ambitious mission to document — and teach — every language in the world."

Wavelength (talk) 17:41, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Edit warring due to Infobox language color "Altaic"[edit]

Hi Kwami -- Can you take a look at all the Japanese and Korean-related language and dialect articles? There's currently an ongoing edit war with all sorts of new users and IP addresses as a result of the name "Altaic". See also Template_talk:Infobox_language#Rename_.22Altaic.22_in_familycolor Template talk:Infobox language – Rename "Altaic" in familycolor (I previously asked your advice on this matter and would appreciate it again). Thank you. — Io Katai ᵀᵃˡᵏ 23:45, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

De jure official language[edit]

Hi Kwami. Surely if a language is official, it has to be so de jure, not so? And if anything is de facto, it therefore is so in practice but not in law, right? Locate "German is official language (de jure or de facto)" in German language. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 14:19, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

I think they mean situations like the USA, where English is not officially official, but is the official language for all practical purposes. — kwami (talk) 20:48, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
I object to that phrasing. The United States has no official language, and doesn't need one. English is the overwhelming majority language, and the language in which most government functions are conducted, but not the official language. --Trovatore (talk) 21:03, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

List of ISO 639-3 language codes reserved for local use listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect List of ISO 639-3 language codes reserved for local use. Since you had some involvement with the List of ISO 639-3 language codes reserved for local use redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. – Train2104 (t • c) 06:09, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

null prefix vs zero prefix (Bantu languages, nouns [noun classes])[edit]

Hi Kwami. Is either of these technically more 'correct' in linguistic terminology?

Thnaks, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 15:37, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

No. They mean the same thing. "Zero" is more common, but some people prefer "null". Of course, there's the theoretical issue of whether there actually is a zero prefix. Does English "cat" have a singular suffix that is null, or is the word simply understood to be singular unless it has the plural suffix -s? If you don't believe in such things, you can say that those noun classes don't have a prefix. — kwami (talk) 19:47, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Latin script in Kazakhstan[edit]

"Kazakhstan's 76-year-old authoritarian President Nursultan Nazarbayev" ... "on April 12" ... "ordered authorities to begin preparing for the switch from the Cyrillic alphabet to a Latin based script".

Wavelength (talk) 16:33, 20 April 2017 (UTC) and 17:10, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, unfortunately arguing about scripts often seems to be more important than the language itself. — kwami (talk) 00:35, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

a hand with the help:ipa for sardinian[edit]

hi there! i check some of your contributions with respect to language iso codes and ipa contents and i wonder if you could lend me a hand linking the page to the actual sardinian iso lang tag and to some pages where sardinian in ipa is used (or pointing me out how to do it), as i'm quite a newbie user. i explain better the issue here: and here: thanks in advance Sacdegemecs (talk) 06:29, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

A page you started (ASLwrite) has been reviewed![edit]

Thanks for creating ASLwrite, Kwamikagami!

Wikipedia editor Kostas20142 just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

Great job!

To reply, leave a comment on Kostas20142's talk page.

Learn more about page curation.

Kostas20142 (talk) 12:16, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Wikipedia:American Heritage Dictionary representation[edit]

Ambox warning orange.svg Wikipedia:American Heritage Dictionary representation, a page which you created or substantially contributed to (or which is in your userspace), has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:American Heritage Dictionary representation and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Wikipedia:American Heritage Dictionary representation during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. LakeKayak (talk) 23:02, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Old Latin dialects[edit]

Hi, in 2013 you created articles, Praenestinian language and Lanuvian language. Unfortunately, both are essentially sub-stubs, which carry no information that can't be found in Latino-Faliscan languages. The fact that you created them anyway suggests that you know in fact more about them. Maybe you planned to expand them later. If so, could you tell us more about these Old Latin dialects? Steinbach (talk) 16:57, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't. I created them so that all ISO language codes would redirect to an article that identified the language associated with the code. These codes were assigned by LingList and are in the private code range. AFAIK LingList is the only org that uses private ISO language codes, so I made sure all of theirs direct to an article as well. (The tables could be moved to the family article, but would be rather ugly and distracting, and not an improvement to the article. I thought them better as separate stubs.)
LingList is not a RS. However, it is very commonly used and cited, so IMO it's reasonable to support them on WP as a 2ary source. (I would think that on WP, common use in the community would trump my judgement that LL is a junk ref.)
kwami (talk) 20:13, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Haitian Standard French listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Haitian Standard French. Since you had some involvement with the Haitian Standard French redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:27, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Help requested with temple naming "conventions"[edit]


I notice that you closed Talk:Padmavathi Temple, Tiruchanur#Requested move 21 July 2015 with a comment Whether to remove the location is a different discussion, as there is not enough input here to decide. I note that Padmavathi Temple is currently a redlink. There seems to be no reason for the geographical disambiguation, and I am at a loss to understand why it is there.

This has come up again at Talk:Meenakshi Amman Temple#Requested move 24 May 2017. See also Talk:Meenakshi Amman Temple#This is a mess.

In both the discussion you closed and the current discussion there has been reference to a naming convention, but this does not appear to exist in English Wikipedia. I suspect that many (perhaps even all) of the main contributors to these articles have English as a second language, and that they are more familiar with procedures and conventions in another Wikipedia, and are applying those in English Wikipedia. If so, this must stop.

Your help would be greatly appreciated. Andrewa (talk) 16:37, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Tai Then language listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Tai Then language. Since you had some involvement with the Tai Then language redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. RJFF (talk) 21:37, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for creating African language articles[edit]

Just wanted to thank you for creating the Wikipedia articles for practically every African language and family over these years. I've been going through the major African family/subfamily articles, making vector maps where they have been missing and easing article comprehensibility. I've made it my mission to ease the understanding of African languages and families. It was through this that I noticed you had created almost every article I was editing. All I have to say is, really great work on your massive contributions to Wikipedia. It's greatly appreciated. SpikeballUnion (talk) 04:09, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Asking for your input on 'Angolan Portuguese dialects' at WP:NO[edit]

Hi Kwami. If you have some time, your input would be appreciated here. Thank you. Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 23:29, 3 August 2017 (UTC)


If I see the page history correctly, looks like you have semi-protected and move-protected Wikipedia:IPA for Hawaiian (now moved to Help:IPA/Hawaiian) right after you created it as "Highly visible template". Was this some kind of mistake? If so I think it should be unprotected. Nardog (talk) 05:09, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

We routinely semi-protect(ed) IPA templates. — kwami (talk) 06:42, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
?? Help:IPA/Hawaiian is not a template. Nardog (talk) 07:46, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Eastern Sudanic[edit]

I've made edits to East Sudanic related articles.

There are four Eastern Sudanic subclassifications. Bender 2000, Ehret 1984/2001, Starostin 2016 and Rilly 2008. I know Dimmendaal has one too but it's unpublished as far as I know. None of the proposed classifications are argued for using the historical-comparative method (regular sound changes, known sound laws and a corpus of proto-forms w/ reflexes) which is why there's no standard classification as is the case with the demonstrated, now stable, subgroups such as Daju and Nilotic.

I've changed the wikipedia nomenclature which has an Ehret and Bender bias to something that better reflects the modern state of research. Bender's classification is still the most influential of the four (see ethnologue) but Ehret's is not so. -- Lestadii27 (talk) 19:50, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Ehret's not a RS, but I thought his names might be useful. Not if no-one uses them, though. — kwami (talk) 20:26, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Tasmanian languages[edit]

Hello, I looked on the edit history page of the Tasmanian languages, and I see that you added the phonology back in 2012, however; as of today it says information on the vowels that there were "five short" and "five long". Do you happen to still have the source you got the consonants from? It said "Schmidt 1952". What were the five long and short vowel sounds/phonemes/phonetic symbols that were listed in the source? Also does there exist a separate "y" sound in the languages? Another thing you stated was that the languages were the East-central and the South-east Tasmanian languages, could that also partially include the North-eastern language as well? Please let me know. Thanks. Fdomanico51997 (talk) 04:06, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

File:Alfabet palcowy2.jpg listed for discussion[edit]


A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Alfabet palcowy2.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for discussion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:27, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Ethnologue as a source[edit]

Hi Kwami. I see you're semi-retired, not a particularly good thing for Wikipedia (though likely good for you!). If you do see this, I was wondering what your opinion is on Ethnologue as a source. The relevant discussion is at Talk:Balti_language#Devanagri_Script where Ethnologue is described as a reliable source and language authority used throughout Wikipedia. Regardless of all this, I hope your off-wiki life is going well and best wishes. --regentspark (comment) 03:42, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I'd second the comment as I saw your input on some talk page. I came here asking for you opinion on an issue in an area which you edit, but was disappointed by the notification. Would still welcome you input any time.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 04:21, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Changes to DecimalSeparator.svg[edit]

Hello, I was studying changes to SVG image (, and found that you had changed that image to show that in Croatia decimal mark in use is period (.). Although the whole image is commented as "dubious", I'd like to correct it. The image is used in article about decimal mark, where it is stated that this decimal mark is comma. Do you have any sources or references stating that decimal mark in Croatia is period? They probably exist, so I'd like to review them. In favor of comma is Croatian norm HRN ISO 31-0:1996 (Veličine i jedinice - 0. dio: Opća načela, i.e. Quantities and units, Part 0, General principles). Many thanks! DarkoS (talk) 07:39, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Go ahead. I don't recall where I got that info, and in any case your source is probably more reliable than mine was. — kwami (talk) 16:48, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

ArbCom 2017 election voter message[edit]

Scale of justice 2.svg Hello, Kwamikagami. Voting in the 2017 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 10 December. All users who registered an account before Saturday, 28 October 2017, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Wednesday, 1 November 2017 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2017 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:42, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Map of San languages[edit]

Hi Kwami

I have no idea how to do am image look-up on the wiki to see if something is already uploaded. Before I go to the trouble, could I have your opinion on this map 1, 2? Thanks. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 23:05, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@Rui Gabriel Correia: Sure. I wonder if the areas aren't a bit exaggerated, but it doesn't look too bad. But the colors are random and they should mean something, IMO preferably language family. (E.g. G|ui is a dialect of G||ana, but they're different colors, while Hai||om and N|u are in different language families, but are the same color.) Also, it looks like "=Hoa" is covering two different languages, from two different language families. — kwami (talk) 01:52, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Please come and help...[edit]

Should MoS shortcut redirects be sorted to certain specific maintenance categories? An Rfc has been opened on this talk page to answer that question. If this interests you and you should decide to semi-unretire Face-smile.svg for a bit, your sentiments would be appreciated!  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  17:16, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Seasons' Greetings[edit]

The Great White North.jpg you and yours, from the Great White North! FWiW Bzuk (talk) 03:12, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Mail Notification[edit]

Hello, Kwamikagami. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.
Xbypass (talk) 22:32, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Hualfin language[edit]

Hello. I know you're semi-retired, but I was wondering if you could help me with something quick. I just stumbled on a redirect you created, Hualfin language. It points to Cacán language, which doesn't mention the term, but a Google search turns up nothing of use. Usually I would take something like this straight to RfD, but I realize you're something of an expert on languages, so I thought I would ask you first what the reasoning is behind the redirect. Thanks.— PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 15:19, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

It was the name in some old source I was working with, not common enough these days to mention in the article. Languages can have dozens of names, and while we could create a section for all those alt names (sometimes the names of villages where the language is spoken), that looks rather silly if the rest of the article is a stub. But if someone comes across that old source and wonders what "Hualfin" is, it would be nice if WP could direct them to the correct article. — kwami (talk) 21:18, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
Ah, thanks. I'll just tag as {{r without mention}}.— PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 02:04, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
Perfect. I didn't know about that template. I've created lots of rd's like this, maybe hundreds, but all years ago. — kwami (talk) 02:18, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Ngayarta[edit]

Ambox warning blue.svgTemplate:Ngayarta has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Frietjes (talk) 20:59, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

"Former countries" infobox added to prehistoric Florida ethnic groups and village sites[edit]

Since you have edited a number of these articles in the past, whats your opinion on adding the infobox for "former countries" to ethnic, tribal and village organizations in the late prehistoric, protohistoric and early historic Florida and southeastern region? Another editor has begun adding the infobox (which I disagree with) to a number of these articles, sometimes removing and replacing other infoboxes in the process. ( see Tacatacuru revision history, Uzita (Florida), Pohoy , Tocobaga). The editor, User:Mangokeylime, seems to have a thing for infoboxes. Per our recent interactions (User:Mangokeylime#Mound Builders box and Talk:Mississippian culture#Mound Builders navbox) I'd rather have some neutral parties knowledgeable of the subjects to weigh in rather than me jumping in unilaterally on this issue. Thanks, and kind regards, Heiro 03:20, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

"Country" has a rather amorphous definition. Tribes and nations are not in and of themselves "countries", at least as far as I understand the term. But as for most ambiguous things here on WP, the question should be whether defining the term to include tribes and nations is useful to our readers, and whether we'd be able to be consistent in using the word that way across our articles. In this case, I doubt it is or that we would, but that's something the proposer should make a convincing argument for.
Maybe a nation>tribe>clan info box for such articles? But we'd need evidence the group/village/whatever actually is a nation/tribe/clan.
I think it would be a better use of time to reduce our use of the word "tribe" to a consistent definition (e.g., as a unit of social/governmental organization between the clan and the nation, for people that are organized tribally at all (as the word is used e.g. in the National Museum of Ghana), rather than a substitute for "nation"/"ethnic group" for people our culture considers primitive -- and also capital-T "Tribe" for "Tribal" governments in the USA, which generally have nothing to do with actual tribes).
kwami (talk) 04:39, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Agreed. For the purposes of these articles though, do you think the information fields in that specific template fits those articles? The fields are tailored to what seems to me are current definitions of modern nation states as "countries" and not the more amorphous entities you describe, which is exactly my problem with using it in these instances. I do not want to come across as displaying WP:OWN tendencies with these articles (or be WP:BITEy with what seems like a newer editor by unilaterally reverting all their edits) and I have a recent history with this user about another infobox that had a similar issue (in that it did not fit the articles it was being added to adequately). I've asked you and few other regular editors of that subject matter to weigh in in an attempt to show them that it isn't just me attacking everything they do. Heiro 04:50, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Maybe the info box could be modified to better fit the requirements for such polities? I like the idea of treating all polities with the degree of respect that such a template implies -- articles look more serious, somehow, with a template. Especially for obscure polities we know little about, and so can't write much about, a template makes it look like we're taking them seriously or that they deserve to be taken seriously.
There could be a problem with forcing a polity to fit the categories assumed by the template, but that shouldn't be too hard to overcome (ha!) with a bit of discussion on the template talk page. Using the template might have a beneficial side-effect: by forcing editors to formally label the kind of polity it is so prominently, we might be less sloppy with how we use words like 'tribe' and 'chief'. (Though it will be difficult to extend consistency to the walled garden of Somalia, where editors insist on following the convention that tribes are "clans" and clans are "sub-clans".) Since we're talking about permanent settlements, we wouldn't need to worry about tribe vs band, but other characteristics might be clarified and the wording cleaned up if editors are forced to label them. — kwami (talk) 06:19, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Languages of A Song of Ice and Fire for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Languages of A Song of Ice and Fire is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Languages of A Song of Ice and Fire until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. The Verified Cactus 100% 22:11, 27 January 2018 (UTC)