User talk:Lawrencegoriel

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Ancient Iraq[edit]


Chaldean vs Assyrian Ethnicity[edit]

Chaldean people[edit]

I redirected page from Assyrian people to Chaldean
User Mlpearc reverted changes
Asked for explanation
I redirected page from Assyrian people to Chaldean
Explained: "Redirected to Chaldean page since 'Chaldean people' may refer to multiple things which are listed on the Chaldean page."
User Mlpearc reverted changes
Renegotiated terms:"You need a discussion and consensus for this change."
I changed redirection from Chaldean people talk page from Chaldean Christians back to Chaldean people
Created topic for discussion with the following citations

Chaldean Christians[edit]

I added citation needed tag to Assyrian origin claim made by unknown author
One way to solve the identity problem is to cite sources, if the author can't find any sources then it shouldn't be making the claim.

Chaldean Villages in Iraq[edit]

Tel Kaif[edit]

Al Qosh[edit]

I cited Jacob Bacall (1 December 2014). Chaldeans in Detroit. Arcadia Publishing. ISBN 1439648824. 
Mentions that Al Kosh is a Chaldean village, among many others.
I cited John Murray (1878). Handbook for Travellers in Turkey in Asia: Including Constantinople, the Bosphorus, Plain of Troy, Isles of Cyprus, Rhodes, &c..., with General Hints for Travellers in Turkey, Vocabularies &c. Princeton University. 
States very clearly "Alkosh, Chaldean village."
User Mlpearc reverted changes without comment

Redirected Alkosh from Elkosh to Alqosh
User Mlpearc reverted changes
"You've been informmed before, you need consensus to change a target of a redirect."


User Moxy cited book by Maria Annie (2012). Mesopotamia - Unabridged Guide. Emereo Publishing. p. 296. ISBN 1486427618. 
Book contains material directly lifted from Wikipedia including text, pictures and lists. Author copied and pasted "Self-designation" section directly from "Assyrian people" page. This was done to justify changes to Mosul page using incorrect information to transplant the Chaldean name with Assyrian.
User Moxy cited book by Will Kymlicka; Eva Pföstl (2014). Multiculturalism and Minority Rights in the Arab World. Oxford University Press. p. 272. ISBN 9780191662621. 
Justifies use of Assyrian name on Mosul page by stating that Iraqi government considered Assyrio-Chaldean state to include both ethnicities as a single nationality. This book gives credence to Chaldeans and Assyrians as a separate ethnicity since it addresses them separately and attempt to marry them under a single nationality.
Further investigation yielded the following reference on page 268 "In addition, Article 125 says that the Constitution must guarantee the administrative, political, cultural, and educational right of the various nationalities: Turkmen, Chaldeans, Assyrians, and all other segments of the population."
Book also states on p.269 "If one really insists on mentioning the nationalities, then all of them should be mentioned: Arabs, Kurds, Chaldeans, Assyrians, Syriacs, and Turkmen... with a view to equality and without hegemony." The author obviously meant ethnicity rather than nationality since all of these, most obviously Arab, are ethnicities without nations per se.
User Moxy cited book by Liam Anderson; Gareth Stansfield (2011). The Ethnopolitics of Conflict and Compromise. University of Pennsylvania Press. p. 25. ISBN 0-8122-0604-5. 
Unknown reason, content is irrelevant.
Replied with citation from web, "Minority Rights Group International: Iraq : Chaldeans". World Directory of Minorities and Indigenous Peoples. Minority Rights Group International. October 2014. Retrieved 24 March 2015.  "Until the 1950s the Mosul plain had always been the centre of Chaldean life."
Other important information:
  • "Chaldeans broke away from the Assyrian Ancient Church of the East as a result of long-running dynastic conflicts, to become fully uniate with Rome in 1778."

I cited "Who are the Chaldean Christians?". BBC News. BBC News. 13 March 2008. Retrieved 24 March 2015. 
Article presents Chaldeans as the majority of Iraq's Christians, gives population estimate as of 2008 (550K/700K total Christians), also mentions 50K Christians in Mosul.
I cited "Refworld - Iraq: Chaldean Christians". UN Refugee Agency. Department of Homeland Security. 27 June 2000. Retrieved 24 March 2015. 
  • States that Chaldeans and Assyrians have same ancestors but Chaldeans are Catholic and Assyrians are not.
  • Chaldeans & Assyrians are non-Arab.
  • Kurds designate Assyrians as Kurdish Christians.
  • Chaldeans and Assyrians have separate designation for Iraqi census
  • United States began to call all Chaldeans as Assyrians in the 2000 US Census
  • Majority of the 38,000 Christians in Kurdish-controlled Iraq are Chaldean
  • There are many Chaldean Christians in and to the south of Mosul, especially in the Tel Kef area
  • Until the 1950s Chaldeans were mostly settled in Mosul
  • Chaldeans are not suspected of colluding with the Kurds whereas reports indicate that Assyrians are often suspected of doing so
I cited de Courtois, Sébastien (2004). The Forgotten Genocide: Eastern Christians, the Last Arameans. New Jersey: Gorgias Press. ISBN 1-59333-077-4. 
Gives account of Chaldeans being massacred in Mosul during the so called Assyrian genocide of 1915, probably should be changed to Chaldean genocide.

User Moxy cited book by Eliz Sanasarian (2000). Religious Minorities in Iran CLICK HERE. Cambridge University Press. p. 41. ISBN 978-1-139-42985-6. 
The book (on page 40-41) quotes a woman named "Arian Ishaya" who states that, "Chaldeans are ethnically Assyrians who refuse to give up their Ancestral name"
Author was merely stating one of the many theories to show their conclusion that, "The problem of defining the ethnic identities of either Chaldeans or Assyrians is related to the convoluted and complex history of their social and political evolution." Otherwise stating that there is no consensus on this topic.
User Moxy cited book by Suha Rassam (2005). Christianity in Iraq: Its Origins and Development to the Present Day. Gracewig. p. 138. ISBN 0-85244-633-0. 
Claims citation doesn't mention Chaldeans at all.
On Page 142 author states that, "By this time the largest community was that in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, namely the Chaldean and the Syrian Catholic Churches. Next in size was the Syrian Orthodox Church, then the Church of the East (or the 'Assyrian Church of the East') and the Armenian Churches. There were also small Protestant, Latin, and Greek communities."







I cited Lokman I. Meho; Kelly L. Maglaughlin (1 January 2001). Kurdish Culture and Society: An Annotated Bibliography. Greenwood Publishing Group. ISBN 0313315434. 
Corrected the "Assyrian" village to "Chaldean" village. Edit war seems to have taken place on this issue since 2007, maybe older..
user Mlpearc reverted changes without comment

Tel Eskof[edit]


Assyrian Villages in Iraq[edit]





Open Discussion[edit]

Please create your topic below


After reading all this I can see you just dont understand the problem at all or the fact I have been showing you and all sources that explain the problem and can be used for some changes. Let me explain with just one example so this is clear. Lets look at what you have said just above about the Suha Rassa source "Claims citation doesn't mention Chaldeans at all" ....does the cited page that is #138 that is linked mention them yes or no? Do you expect our readers to take the same time as you did to find a word? So what should you do? You need to change the source our use one of the new ones on the talk page to change it. The problem is changing it all but not changing the sources....every time you do this and someone looks at what is going and the sources dont add up. BTW some women named Dr. Arian Ishaya. Good luck I am done hope you get it now!-- Moxy (talk) 01:55, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
The quote was "a woman" not "some woman" so let's just set you on the right path there. Also, that woman happens to be of Assyrian descent... What a surprise! Thank you for being done, I was hoping you would realize that you can't defeat the facts by taking things out of context and it has finally happened. Cheers! --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 02:01, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Your POV is very evident. We are all racist even the experts I get it... I am the one surprised here. I wish you all the best of luck. -- Moxy (talk) 02:21, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
What are you talking about? Nobody has called you racist. I am saying that the opinion which was cited in the book you cited was no more than an opinion. The book even begins the entire section with "One theory is..." meaning that it has not been proven! I change the word from Assyrian to Native instead of Chaldean, which can easily be inferred from the Woods document. I am not racist by any means and the only POV I have is from one which can be cited without question and put in correct context and still remain true. Perhaps my research skills are too advance for such a web site as this where one can simply take a sentence, completely out of context, and cite it in inappropriate ways to validate an invalid idea! I was under the assumption that this site was an encyclopedia rather than a news organization. --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 02:33, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
"Perhaps my research skills are too advance for such a web site as this", Aren't we full of ourselves, it is this attitude that will eventually get you blocked. I too wish you luck, you're going to need it. Cheers, Mlpearc (open channel) 02:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Stop threatening me and go change that article to reflect the truth. I'm not touching it again. You guys are obviously content with telling these lies. --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 02:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Ambox warning pn.svg Calling me full of myself is a personal attack.
As is calling editors 'Assyrian nationalists' of course. Face-smile.svg Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 17:23, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Dear User @Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi:, your activity constitutes harassment and are disruptive. Please cease from these activities before you are reported to an administrator. --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 17:35, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Dear User @Lawrencegoriel:, no it does not. Good luck! Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 17:37, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


Wikipedia's user talk guidelines explain that circumstances exist where one's talk page is not one's to with as they please. I'm not saying you've crossed any lines, only that you need to be aware that there are lines. Tiderolls 20:25, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Please see the following excerpt"Traditionally Wikipedia offers wide latitude to users to manage their user space as they see fit." also, my talk page facilitates the process of working with others, as they can see the work I have already accomplished. Thank you for your input.--Lawrencegoriel (talk) 20:43, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

March 2015[edit]

Stop icon with clock
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 2 weeks for battleground editing. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the following text below this notice: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first.  Fut.Perf. 22:29, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise:"The Top 10 Reason Students Cannot Cite or Rely on Wikipedia".  Take a read --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 22:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

File:Orologio rosso or File:Orologio verde DOT SVG (red clock or green clock icon, from Wikimedia Commons)
This blocked user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy). Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Lawrencegoriel (block logactive blocksglobal blocksautoblockscontribs deleted contribscreation log change block settingsunblockfilter log)

Request reason:

I have not posted anything that I did not have proper citation for when asked to provide it, therefore (by definition) this is not point of view editing as others are suggesting. I am also participating in the Assyrian people talk section and need to respond to others. Thanks. Lawrencegoriel (talk) 12:19, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Decline reason:

One only has to look to your last 100 edits to see clear examples of battleground mentality. If the same behavior continues after the end of this block (insisting that you are always right and refusing to cooperatively edit), the next block will be for a longer duration. OhNoitsJamie Talk 14:02, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired.

And while you're here, please note in Assyrian people Talk Page the citation used by Kathovo who used a document written by Yonadam Kanna, co-founder of the Assyrian Democratic Movement (aka the Assyrian Nationalist Movement) in 1979. This illustrates exactly what I was talking about. There are things going on here that an outsider may not be aware of or understand. The Assyrian Nationalist propaganda states that Chaldeans and Assyrians are the same ethnicity, but this is just the POV of those Assyrians who have a personal agenda. They know good and well that we are not the same but have political motivation not to admit it publicly. Here is a great source on the issue John Joseph (2000). The Modern Assyrians of the Middle East: A History of Their Encounter with Western Christian Missions, Archaeologists, and Colonial Powers. BRILL. ISBN 9004116419. 
@Ohnoitsjamie: "Insisting that you are always right and refusing to cooperatively edit" So in other words, I am not allowed to make any corrections to Wikipedia without approval of some administrators who refuse to even identify themselves and may or may not have biases on the issue in question. I presented a fact, not an argument, a fact. How do I know it is fact? Well, I'm Chaldean for starters and therefore have a deep knowledge of my own ethnicity, culture, background, customs and political issues. Second, I spent way too much time finding resources to cite things that I already know to be true. To put this more clearly, the wikipedia articles in question are stating that "the Earth is flat" and I am giving citation after citation of evidence to show that "the Earth is round". You call that battleground editing? I call it investigative research. I have done a lot of unnecessary research to prove what I already know to be true and a person should never have to prove their own ethnicity is actually an ethnicity. This is borderline racism. I'm not returning to this site and will be contacting the media about this.
just a word in your shell-like, old man, I'd say that's drifting rather close to a legal threat, wouldn't you...? Yours, Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 17:59, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
That is your point of view and it, as usual, is incorrect. The media is not a legal entity. Your trolling of my page is harassment and can't be interpreted in any other way. Each of your comments is an attempt to have me silenced, banned, etc. You clearly have a bias against me, probably for exposing the Assyrian Nationalist movement poison which is so blatantly obvious on this entire site. RIP Dinkha the alleged child molester. --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 18:07, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
I look forward to reading your Op-Ed piece in the New York Times. OhNoitsJamie Talk 18:55, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
@Future Perfect at Sunrise:, @Ohnoitsjamie: Maybe the lack of TPA for the remainder of the block would be less disruptive ? Mlpearc (open channel) 19:08, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Except it won't be an Op-Ed, it will be a Gotcha piece about racism on Wikipedia. --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 19:10, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
It's certainly distracting . Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 19:10, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
@Future Perfect at Sunrise:, TY. Mlpearc (open channel) 22:21, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Asian 10,000 Challenge invite[edit]

Hi. The Wikipedia:WikiProject Asia/The 10,000 Challenge has recently started, based on the UK/Ireland Wikipedia:The 10,000 Challenge and Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/The 10,000 Challenge. The idea is not to record every minor edit, but to create a momentum to motivate editors to produce good content improvements and creations and inspire people to work on more countries than they might otherwise work on. There's also the possibility of establishing smaller country or regional challenges for places like South East Asia, Japan/China or India etc, much like Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Nordic). For this to really work we need diversity and exciting content and editors from a broad range of countries regularly contributing. At some stage we hope to run some contests to benefit Asian content, a destubathon perhaps, aimed at reducing the stub count would be a good place to start, based on the current Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/The Africa Destubathon which has produced near 200 articles in just three days. If you would like to see this happening for Asia, and see potential in this attracting more interest and editors for the country/countries you work on please sign up and being contributing to the challenge! This is a way we can target every country of Asia, and steadily vastly improve the encyclopedia. We need numbers to make this work so consider signing up as a participant! Thank you. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 05:04, 20 October 2016 (UTC)