User talk:Lord Gorthol

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I am able to help others with their Middle-earth articles.


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Hey, I see you've recently joined the Middle-earth Wikiproject. If you'd like my help in editing Barad-dûr, just drop me a line whenever you're free. I'll be glad to help out. ReallyFat B. 09:26, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi User:ReallyFat B. thanks for your very kind offer. Might be better if I spend some time learning the basics of editing and then get back to you. I'll be away for 2-3 weeks from 5th of September so it may better to wait till the end of Sept when I get back. Kind regards Lord Gorthol (talk) 17:45, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
No worries. Drop me a line whenever you need help ReallyFat B. 20:14, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

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Gabrielm199 (talk) 21:07, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Udûn vs Utumno[edit]

I think it's better to keep the two articles separate; the only overlap of interest is Gandalf's phrase. So I've moved material from the former to the latter, keeping links between them. Also, it would be better not to rely on the Encyclopedia of Arda, as E of A has a habit of jumping to conclusions and not providing good references. Do the work to find references in Reliable Sources (or raise the issue with {{cn}} and the Talk pages). For primary material (plot, geography, etc.), primary sources are best, so that we know where Tolkien said such and such. An obvious exception would be places where Tolkien was not clear, so that a good secondary source (like Foster or Hammond & Scull) clarifying the matter would be useful.) -- Elphion (talk) 19:47, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi User:Elphion thanks for your message and suggestions. Regarding Encyclopedia of Arda, I only utilized the website after doing a thorough search of the primary sources. I then used Thain's book and E of A to check if I'd missed any material that I wanted to include. I chose E of A as the WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards (at point 2.4) mentions it as a reliable website as a source, I am now wondering if the Thain's Book which has better referencing should be mentioned there instead? I can see now what you mean about when to use a secondary source vs a primary one - I am fairly new to Wikipedia and am learning all the time. I am not sure what you mean by {{cn}} but take your point about seeking help.
The intention with the Udûn article was to produce something that covered every aspect of the use of the word, since they all seemed to refer to Udûn as a 'place.' Regarding the changes you made, the definition you added to the Utumno article: tum or tumbo = deep valley under or among hills, actually came fromûn though tum or tumbo is mentioned in The Silmarillion appendix it only says: tum ‘valley’ in Tumhalad, Tumladen; Quenya tumbo (cf. Tree-beard’s tumbalemorna ‘black deep valley’, The Two Towers III 4). Cf. Utumno, Sindarin Udûn (Gandalf in Moria named the Balrog ‘Flame of Udûn’), a name afterwards used of the deep dale in Mordor between the Morannon and the Isenmouthe. Lord Gorthol (talk) 16:54, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
You're right about the etymology: the Silmarillion gives only an abbreviated version. I've replaced the reference with one to the "Etymologies" in The Lost Road.
I think the two entries should remain separate: the lists are lists of places, not of names of places, and the two are distinct locations. (Links from each to the other are fine, and I've kept those.) Also, List of minor places in Middle-earth covers locations in the Middle-earth of The Lord of Rings; there are separate articles for places farther afield.
Spurred by your reference to the Kindle index (which I have not seen), I added a bit to Utumno about its location, and about the fact that Tolkien appears to have merged Utumno and Angband at one point. But the later texts keep them separate, and what the index describes is Angband, not Utumno.
I think the project errs in treating the Encyclopedia of Arda as a reliable source. It's a convenient place to look for information, and it is often right (much like WP!), but as I indicated above, the source in Tolkien proper is preferable.
-- Elphion (talk) 20:56, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Oh, yes: {{cn}} (entered into the markup without the nowiki tag) is a template that generates the "Citation needed" text that looks like a citation reference. Use it like the ref tag in places where there ought to be a ref tag. -- Elphion (talk) 21:02, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi User:Elphion Thanks for your message.Lord Gorthol (talk) 10:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)