User talk:MZMcBride/Archive 25

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WikiXDC: Wikipedia 10th Birthday!

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National Archives and Records Administration (NARA)

You are invited to WikiXDC, a special meetup event and celebration on Saturday, January 22 hosted by the National Archives and Records Administration in downtown Washington, D.C.

  • Date: January 22, 2011 (tentatively 9:30 AM - 5 PM)
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Please RSVP soon as possible, as there likely will be a cap on number of attendees that NARA can accommodate.

Note: You can unsubscribe from DC meetup notices by removing your name at Wikipedia:Meetup/DC/Invite/List. BrownBot (talk) 02:06, 7 January 2011 (UTC)


Hi, when I'm trying to login to the TUSC acount I got the message: "Sorry, you're not on the access list", although, as you can see, I am on the list. Can you check it? Sincerely, --Mikołka (talk) 00:03, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Probably Unicode-related. I'll try to look at this problem this week. --MZMcBride (talk) 01:07, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I think this is fixed now. Please let me know if you continue to have problems. --MZMcBride (talk) 01:46, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

It works now, thank you. :) Kind regards, --Mikołka (talk) 12:38, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


ik —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:42, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

#insightful --MZMcBride (talk) 03:09, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Database query?

I notice you're the MediaWiki SQL guru around here... I want to ask for an SQL query at JIRA, but I'm not sure if it's quite going to work out. Here it is:

FROM page
 LEFT JOIN templatelinks
  ON page_namespace = tl_namespace
   AND page_title = tl_title
 LEFT JOIN categorylinks
  ON cl_from = page_id
WHERE page_namespace = 10
 AND page_is_redirect = 0
 AND tl_from IS NULL
 AND cl_to != "Wikipedia_substituted_templates"
  1. Is this actually going to give the desired outcome (all templates without transclusions that are not in Category:Wikipedia substituted templates)?
  2. Will it overtax the server? I really want to get all the results if I can, but I'll impose a LIMIT if need be.

Thanks very much, — This, that, and the other (talk) 05:13, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Looks about right. It's not a particularly cheap query, and I might rewrite the categorylinks check as a subquery, but it won't kill anything to run it. I don't suppose you need to go to DBQ, I can just run it now. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:50, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice. It would definitely be nice if you could run it... but I am happy to post it at JIRA if you're too busy right now. I've always dreamed of being an SQL expert, but sadly I've never quite understood all of it... — This, that, and the other (talk) 06:09, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Finished: tools:~mzmcbride/this-that-other-unused-temps-2011-01-16.txt.gz. About 24,000 results. --MZMcBride (talk) 07:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks very much, MZMcBride. It should help me (and others) a lot in cleaning up the template namespace. What SQL query did you end up using, just for future reference? — This, that, and the other (talk) 07:52, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
FROM page
LEFT JOIN templatelinks
ON page_namespace = tl_namespace
AND page_title = tl_title
WHERE page_namespace = 10
AND page_is_redirect = 0
AND tl_from IS NULL
                FROM categorylinks
                WHERE cl_from = page_id
                AND cl_to = 'Wikipedia_substituted_templates');

I changed it to use a subquery, but some would say this is slower and worse form. What you had was fine. --MZMcBride (talk) 07:58, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Ddbr

Ambox warning pn.svgTemplate:Ddbr has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. — This, that, and the other (talk) 05:00, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Database reports/Empty categories

Any particular reason this was reduced to a weekly report? I was actually planning on asking you to make it report more often, not less, lol. I don't really know the stress this particular report causes, but if it isn't too bad the more often this report is made, the better. It's hard to get this reduced to a nice reasonable level if it's only updated weekly, whereas every 2-3 days it would be a lot more manageable. VegaDark (talk) 21:56, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

You were inactive for a long time. :P I figured nobody needed it updated daily. I'll change it now. --MZMcBride (talk) 21:57, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
While my edits are reasonably inactive, I do like to get some admin work done around here if I can, and this is one of my favorite places to do so :P. It doesn't need to be daily, but every 2 days would be ideal, or every 3 would be ok too. VegaDark (talk) 22:01, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Set it to daily. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. VegaDark (talk) 22:06, 17 January 2011 (UTC)


Could you use another name for this template? There is an open TFD about Template:4, and numerous deletions of other single digit templates. The reason is that often result from template programming mistakes or misuse of the template {{0}}. Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 06:05, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand the issue with using a single digit. It's nice to have a short syntax. If other people are screwing up template syntax, that can't really be helped by deleting templates.... You've lost me. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:08, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Actually, the proposal is to turn "8" into a warning template which warns you when you are using it, which does help. I don't understand the connection with "8" and a horizontal list. What you were using this for was almost what is provided by {{unbulleted list}}, so I added optional style parameters to that template. I think we should use logical names for templates. If you don't agree with my change to use "unbulleted list", feel free to change it back. Should I start a TFD for this one? Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 00:20, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
"8" is the same key on the keyboard as "*". The TFD for Template:4 is a bit mind-boggling. Something about users using bad code and then wondering why it doesn't work. Or something. I don't really understand why we need to hold the hands of people writing templates. If you can't figure out the difference between three braces and two, you're already pretty much screwed. But I don't really have the time (n)or patience to debate this with you, so do whatever you'd like with Template:8. Suggesting that Template:Unbulleted list is a replacement is clearly wrong, though. You're talking about finite vs. infinite uses. Template:Unbulleted list has a fixed number of parameters, obviously. --MZMcBride (talk) 04:04, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

"not in the access list" issue

Hello! I've tried to log in recently with my ex-account Mmaxx (I've renamed globally to Niklem later and been using your tool under the old account with no problems). But today it suddenly said "Sorry, you're not on the access list.", whereas I still actually am... Could you please look into this issue? Thank you in advance! --Niklem (talk) 11:25, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi. The Toolserver is currently experiencing some database replication issues. For further information, you can read the toolserver-l online archives. For status information, you can follow or
Basically metawiki_p was moved from s3 to s7 by Wikimedia and that change fucked up the Toolserver's replication of the databases. When I currently try to see if m:Toolserver/watcher even exists in the database right now, it's returning no results:
mysql> select * from page where page_namespace = 0 and page_title = 'Toolserver/watcher';
Empty set (0.00 sec)
Hopefully this will be resolved in the near future, but until then, nobody will be able to log in to watcher. Anyone with previously created cookies should be fine, though. --MZMcBride (talk) 01:35, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Alright, thank you for the answer. Will be waiting until it's fixed. --Niklem (talk) 07:48, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


Hi MZM. BernsteinBot keeps adding the above image to Wikipedia:Database reports/Non-free files missing a rationale. I presume this is because the rationale is not templated, but it is a rationale. I could change the rationale, but I shouldn't have to. Is there any way to prevent the bot from repeatedly adding the image to the database report? Thanks. fish&karate 14:22, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Sure, fixed. The report actually looks for specific strings in the page text of the file description page. You can see the full list of strings that the script searches for here: Wikipedia:Database reports/Non-free files missing a rationale/Configuration. I added a phrase that will match that particular file's description page text. This obviously isn't the most scalable solution. Something like a template ({{verified legitimate fair use}} or whatever) might be better, but that obviously opens a vector for abuse/misuse. If you notice any other false positives, I'd be happy to look at them and exclude them from future reports. --MZMcBride (talk) 21:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC)


Somewhat ironically, your name came up on the list of candidates for autopatrolled that you had a large part in facilitating. Do you want the permission? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:02, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) HJ, why do you name the header "autopatrolled" when you haven't given him the autoreviewer flag yet? HeyMid (contribs) 20:33, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
"Autopatrolled" is the name of the user right, and is a completely different user right from "Reviewer" (and autoconfirmed). Judging by MZMcBride's user rights log, I'd say he doesn't want this right.. - Kingpin13 (talk) 20:47, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
I don't know whether that was an answer to my question to HJ. "Autopatrolled" grammatically suggests that the user has already been granted the autoreviewer flag. HeyMid (contribs) 20:51, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Well yes in some ways it does, but nonetheless that's the name of the right. - Kingpin13 (talk) 21:19, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
No thanks. It'd probably be nice for that report to have an exceptions list, similar to Wikipedia:Database reports/Potential reviewer candidates/Exceptions, though. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:01, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Fair enough. The template being used includes a line on requesting its removal, so I'd hope that would be sufficient since the right doesn't have any noticeable effect. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:33, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I have a question.

I went to my User Talk Page for my IP, and it says that you deleted it a while back. (sometime in 2009, I'm pretty sure?) I'm just wondering what this is about, I'm a bit confused here. Why was it deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 03:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's not really "yours." But, yes, I deleted User talk: in February of 2009. It was done under a now-defunct guideline documented here: WP:OLDIP. If you'd like the page restored, I'm sure an admin would be happy to, though I doubt the page has anything of interest on it. --MZMcBride (talk) 04:17, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
I've checked, and the only thing on the page was two warnings to someone who had made vandal edits from this IP, back in 2006. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:56, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Article subpages count

Could you do a database report for article subpages count? Something similar to Wikipedia:Database reports/Orphaned talk would give article name and the number of subpages that article has. This would be useful for seeing which articles have excessive subpages. Thanks.Smallman12q (talk) 14:57, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

You probably want to put this at WT:DBR.
I don't understand the request. Articles don't have subpages (or haven't in years). --MZMcBride (talk) 15:41, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Oh...could you do a db report on user subpage count...itd be nice to see who has the most subpages.Smallman12q (talk) 00:17, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Here's the data <>. No idea when I'll get to a proper report. This looks at pages in the User namespace only, not the User talk namespace. It counts redirects and non-redirects equally. This data is limited to users with greater than 50 subpages. It might have an off by one error and it doesn't account for user renames. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:13, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks.Smallman12q (talk) 14:27, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

RedSquirrel page

Hey, looks like you deleted my page:

13:38, 6 July 2008 MZMcBride (talk | contribs) deleted "User:RedSquirrel" ‎ (csd g7)

Just be nice to know if it was an accident, or had I transgressed in some way? Certainly didn't mean to! RedSquirrel (talk) 21:35, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I think you blanked the page, which was taken as an indication that you wanted the page to be deleted. If you'd like an admin to restore it, I'm sure one would be happy to. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:59, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
It was simply this note misplaced on your userpage and subsequently moved. --Closedmouth (talk) 16:39, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
MOUTHY, I WILL NOT TOLERATE YOUR SASS! --MZMcBride (talk) 16:40, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
You love it. --Closedmouth (talk) 07:59, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
Ah, groovy. Thanks peops, all now well with world! RedSquirrel (talk) 09:22, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Categories for discussion nomination of Category:Wikipedia protected pages with expiry expired

Info talk.png

Category:Wikipedia protected pages with expiry expired, which you created, has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. c y m r u . l a s s (talk me, stalk me) 22:38, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Replied there. --MZMcBride (talk) 00:10, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Boxxy request

As you were the closing / deleting administrator for the Boxxy article (here), and Seresin, the admin who protected that as a redirect,[1] appears to be inactive,[2] I'm asking if you'll kindly either unprotect that or edit it so that it will link to a new article I have created on the subject, Boxxy (Internet phenomenon). Some new events have occurred, and a considerable number of new sources have appeared, in the two years since deletion, which renders the old AfD stale and would tend to overcome the arguments made there regarding inadequate sourcing, NOT#NEWS, BLP1E, etc. Thanks, - Wikidemon (talk) 13:58, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

What a piece of shit article. It should be deleted (again).
If you need some redirect unprotected, try AN or somewhere. --MZMcBride (talk) 00:11, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
That is a monumentally shitty article which serves no useful or encyclopedic purpose. What a waste of time. But, hey! +1 on the article count, amirite? Lara 00:17, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


Hi MZMcBride,

From the linksearch I have determined that you previously used Agony's orphantalk-tool. Unfortunately this has been unavailable for some time now because his/her toolserver account expired. It has been renewed once but the tool didn't function (well) because a a few things have changed behind the scenes since it was initially developed.

By great request from several wikis I've decided to give it a shot and develop a new tool to generate a list of talk pages without a subject page.

OrphanTalk2 can be found at the following address:

I'd like to hear from you. Please report any bugs or feature requests on Meta-Wiki by Creating a new ticket. Krinkle (talk) 02:30, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Nice tool, an option for excluding pages in Category:Wikipedia orphaned talk pages that should not be speedily deleted would be nice. --Closedmouth (talk) 08:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Sainte Courtesane

Hi, I wish to create a page for Oscar Wilde's "La Sainte Courtisane"". I saw that you deleted it:

   * 18:46, 13 May 2007 MZMcBride (talk | contribs) deleted "La Sainte Courtisane" ‎ (csd a1)

Wikipedia suggested I contact you first. Any comments/ thoughts on me recreating it? Ninquelosse (talk) 15:21, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

"csd a1" refers to WP:CSD#A1. Basically the original article didn't meet Wikipedia's standards, so it was deleted. As long as you create a draft that meets the notability guidelines and verifiability guidelines, it shouldn't be an issue to re-create the article. --MZMcBride (talk) 00:09, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:8

Ambox warning pn.svgTemplate:8 has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. — This, that, and the other (talk) 09:41, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I commented there. I'm all for deleting unused and unneeded templates, but that discussion seems to lack a fair amount of clue. --MZMcBride (talk) 00:05, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Sorry if I seem clue-less. I know you've done a lot of template cleanup in the past, and you know what it's like. However, I had trouble envisioning a purpose for this particular template, which never seems to have got off the ground in terms of usage. — This, that, and the other (talk) 07:37, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

L&B Images removed

Hi, Please can you explain why the images related to Barnstaple Town railway station, Bratton Fleming railway station and Blackmoor Gate railway station have been removed? Recent discussions on these images had established that they were in fact PD images, and had been transferred to wiki commons. Regards, Lynbarn (talk) 11:47, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to have bothered you - It seems these images have been removed from Wiki Commons, so you had just removed the red links. I am pursuing the matter there! Regards, Lynbarn (talk) 12:25, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Is it possible...

...(and permitted by ts policy, of course) to generate a list of users who 1) have edited in the last year and 2) have the preference "Mark all edits minor by default" set? (See bug 24313, which seems to be held up because some feel we should notify these folks that the preference is going away). No rush. –xenotalk 14:38, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

that information is not accessible for TS users. ΔT The only constant 14:51, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Gotcha... thanks, –xenotalk 15:02, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
User preferences contain sensitive information (mostly e-mail addresses, I guess). They used to be in a blob inside the user table. Now they're in user properties table, which is completely inaccessible to Toolserver users. This just came up on foundation-l, for what it's worth. It'd be nice to get aggregate stats on this info at regular intervals. Probably worthy of a bug (if one hasn't been filed already). --MZMcBride (talk) 04:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Antoine Dodson

This edit seems a bit off, if anyone is still watching. --MZMcBride (talk) 19:59, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. –xenotalk 20:07, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

docket number --> case citation

I don't get this redirect. Can you elaborate for me?--Chaser (talk) 18:06, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I think I created it because the two are used as complements in Template:Infobox SCOTUS case. The docket number is how we list cases before they're assigned a proper number from the Reporter. The redirect seemed logical, though I have no issue if you want to expand it into an article (or delete it, for that matter). --MZMcBride (talk) 23:16, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

BernsteinBot - database reports

Hi, BernsteinBot prepares several database reports. Among these are Wikipedia:Database reports/Empty categories and the sub-pages of Wikipedia:Database reports/Categories categorized in red-linked categories. Is there a report which lists pages in article space which are categorized in red-linked categories? --Redrose64 (talk) 15:08, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, don't think so. I imagine a report like "Articles containing deleted categories" or "Articles containing red-linked categories" would have a lot of results. There are dynamic reports such as Special:WantedCategories, but that isn't really what you want. If you put a note at WT:DBR, someone should be able to do this fairly easily. It'll probably just be limited to the first 1000 entries, not paginated, though. --MZMcBride (talk) 19:58, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Another q - Wikipedia:Database reports/Stubs included directly in stub categories is normally rebuilt on the 13th of each month. Please could it be run today or tomorrow, as a special job? This is because I believe that all the pages listed on the current version have now been fixed, and would like to know what's occurred in the last 16 days. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
Done. At some point it'd probably be nice to investigate why that report takes approximately a million years to update. --MZMcBride (talk) 16:14, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
Face-smile.svg Thank you but, afraid I can't help with the report speed. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:30, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Template talk:Infobox Robotics


I notice that the talk page was deleted but the template itself was not - Any chance you can give me any background on what happened there?

I appreciate it is a while ago! (Feb 2008) I did check your chat log for Jan -Feb 2008 but couldn't see anything in there - I was looking at designing a robotics template, I appreciate that there is a robot infobox but that only covers the robots themselves not all the other parts of the robotics field.

Thanks Chaosdruid (talk) 00:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi. The talk page was deleted because it had no accompanying subject-space page (cf. CSD G8). The contents of the talk page are below. Hope that helps. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:42, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
{{WPRobotics Sidebar}}

== Creation for creation of Infobox Robotics ==
I'm not sure what kinds of articles will need an infobox that isn't already in existence.  With the broad coverage this WikiProject will provide, I'm not sure just one infobox will be enough.  What we'll do instead is to create infoboxes for a group of articles which require infoboxes if there are no infoboxes already in existence we may use/borrow.  Until then, the Infobox link will be red-linked.  [[User:Jamesontai|'''''<font face="Calibri" size="4px" color="#000066">- Jameson L. Tai</font>''''']] <sup>''<font face="Calibri" color="#660000">[[User talk:Jamesontai|talk]] ♦ [[Special:Contributions/Jamesontai|contribs]]''</font></sup> 08:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that - it does help lol
It was basically the same problem I was having with the robot infobox [[3]], it was way too narrow and little used. I have already started work on a new version User:Chaosdruid/Infobox_robotics - it needs separate sections for each type so that the user can delete the ones it isn't leaving the one it is (lol that sounds wrong!
I'll carry on and see how I get on. Chaosdruid (talk) 04:45, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Larabot and listas

I'm plugging away at adding the listas parameter to WikiProject Biography banners.... only 57,895 articles to go. I saw your bot adding the living parameter, but not the listas. Is that something that could be added to your bot? Not sure if it is a good idea with Chinese, Japanese, Arabic names formatted different from western names, but I see bots adding the DEFAULTSORT tag. Bgwhite (talk) 09:15, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the entire listas parameter is stupid, duplicative, unnecessary, and a waste of time, so I won't be implementing that functionality into LaraBot. :-) If users are adding a DEFAULTSORT to the subject-space page, it should be possible to use that information elsewhere, such as a template parameter for the talk page. If that isn't possible, MediaWiki needs to be fixed, not the bot. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:19, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Pffft....My wife just came home. The bird flew off me to her and the dog is in nirvana being with her. To add insult to injury, you are abandoning me too.... mutter, mutter. :). I don't know how difficult it is to add listas to your bot, but if it is relative easy, why not? I don't think a I don't like it, so I won't added it argument is a really good one... sounds like I don't agree with consensus so I'll do it my way. I've actually enjoyed going thru and adding listas. I have another AWB windows open on the main article page, besides the talk page. I've been running around 20% of articles that don't have listas also don't have or wrong DEFAULTSORT, or no Wikipedia:Persondata. Bgwhite (talk) 19:29, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
While reporting a bug with AWB, I found out that bots are not approved to edit listas. So, I guess you couldn't add it to LaraBot even if I paid you a million dollars to do it. Dang, guess I'll have to use my money to buy yet another mansion. btw... the bug was that AWB won't modify/add parameters to the Biography banner if it said, "WikiProject Biography", but it would work ok if it said "WPBIO" or "WPBiography". I used pages your bot was modifying as examples because it was adding "WikiProject Biography". Bgwhite (talk) 02:12, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Adding features takes development time and often introduces bugs. If you enjoy adding the listas parameter, I'm happy for you. From my understanding, it's nearly always the same data that's already inside the DEFAULTSORT, but maybe there are crazy edge cases I'm missing. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) A {{DEFAULTSORT:}} on an article page affects only the category sorting of that page, it does not affect an associated talk page. Thus, if the article merits a {{DEFAULTSORT:}}, it's not just necessary to place one on the article itself: if the talk page belongs to any categories, there should be one on the talk page as well. Since {{DEFAULTSORT:}} should go above the categories, and most WikiProject banner templates categorise the talk page, the {{DEFAULTSORT:}} should be at or near the top of the talk page.
Most project banners provide a mechanism for this which avoids the need for a separate {{DEFAULTSORT:}} - if a project banner is built around {{WPBannerMeta}} (most are), then |listas= does two things: (i) it checks that any |listas= in a previous project banner on the same talk page specified the same sort key; and (ii) it sets up a {{DEFAULTSORT:}}. Therefore, it follows that the |listas= of a project banner template should be exactly the same as the sort key of the {{DEFAULTSORT:}} on the associated article. But only the first project banner needs to have a |listas=, and that's typically {{WikiProject Biography}} (or one of its aliases). --Redrose64 (talk) 18:06, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Never seen the talk stalker page before. Thank you for the good laugh.
If I understand you right, {{WikiProject Biography}} should go first no matter what if it has a |listas= ? I've been moving the biography banner first only if the person was still living. Also MZMcBride has a good point, do you know why everything can't just use the same {{DEFAULTSORT:}} on the article page? Only thing I can think of is a performance hit. btw, I should have referenced the bug I filled on AWB, here it is.
The order in which the WikiProject banner templates are placed doesn't really matter (except that, as you state, living people should definitely have Biography first), but whichever is first, that's the one that ought to have |listas=. Most project banners support it (I don't actually know of any that don't, but there's bound to be one somewhere). The fact that talk pages don't inherit the {{DEFAULTSORT:}} sort key from the main page may be demonstrated by looking at the categories for Charles Burrell & Sons (sorted under B) and for Talk:Charles Burrell & Sons (sorted under C); on the latter there are two project banners, but neither has a |listas=. I don't know the reason for non-inheritance of the sort key, but it's almost certainly a MediaWiki limitation. I've asked at WP:VPT. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Redrose64 wrote:

A {{DEFAULTSORT:}} on an article page affects only the category sorting of that page, it does not affect an associated talk page. Thus, if the article merits a {{DEFAULTSORT:}}, it's not just necessary to place one on the article itself: if the talk page belongs to any categories, there should be one on the talk page as well. Since {{DEFAULTSORT:}} should go above the categories, and most WikiProject banner templates categorise the talk page, the {{DEFAULTSORT:}} should be at or near the top of the talk page.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not discussing the positioning of "DEFAULTSORT" or "listas" in the page text. The issue here is that LaraBot adds {{WikiProject Biography}} to the talk pages of newly created biographies of living people without using a "listas" parameter. Some people think that the bot should use the value from the article's "DEFAULTSORT" when adding the template to the talk page. Personally, I see this as a ridiculous process, given that the data is already presently available in the database, it just isn't implemented in a way that allows it to be re-used. That is, the proper sorting of the page is already stored in the article page text, but due to the (current) limitations of MediaWiki, it's impossible to re-use that sortkey when sorting the talk page. While bots can try to compensate for MediaWiki's deficiencies, this is one area where I think doing so is a horrible idea that will only inhibit future development of a proper fix to this problem. A proper fix here would be allowing the "DEFAULTSORT" value to be queried via a magic word or parser function, so that it can be used within templates or category markup.

As I said previously, there may be edge cases I'm missing where re-using the "DEFAULTSORT" for "listas" may be problematic, but in a vast majority of cases (at least), it should be fine to do this without requiring the use of bots or human intervention. This feature request may already be filed in Bugzilla, but if it's not, it certainly should be. --MZMcBride (talk) 20:24, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't find one, so I've raised bugzilla:27596. This was my first Bugzilla ticket, so I hope I've done it correctly. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:32, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
In my experience in dealing with bugzilla and multiple larger open source projects has not been the greatest. The bigger the project, the more worthless bugzilla becomes for outsiders. The possible duplicate bug MZMcBride found was tagged from 2008, labeled as new, and with no comment from Mediawiki; therefore, I'm not hopeful with the ticket you submitted. Unfortunately, the Squeaky wheel route usually works best. I'll start squeaking after a week or so... give them time to respond to the bugzilla ticket. Bgwhite (talk) 01:43, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
Well, it depends on your perspective. In a lot of ways, wiki article development mirrors open source code development. It's largely volunteers working on the codebase, and volunteers are free to work on whatever they'd like to work on (or work on nothing at all). If people get excited about a project, they'll work on it and improve it to the point that it can be deployed to Wikimedia wikis, but doing so has been extraordinarily difficult in the past year or so due to other various factors. That isn't to say that the current or past situations are acceptable, however. Everyone realizes that the situation with bugs being left without any comments for years or software patches sitting in Bugzilla to rot is unacceptable and needs to be addressed. For its part, Wikimedia has hired a Bugmeister to start triaging, prioritizing, sorting, and giving some general loving to bugs. This role will likely expand in the future to include building tools that will make it easier to file new bugs as well. (Bugzilla is a cruel and fickle mistress.) Obviously more than just a single hire needs to be made; Wikimedia has also been hiring a few contractors to work on specific projects or sets of bugs. If you can find someone to write a patch for you, I'd have no problem bothering some people about getting it reviewed. Unfortunately just filing a bug (as helpful as it is for documentation and future fixes) can't fix the underlying the problem by itself. There's a bit more about my view on bugs at mw:User:MZMcBride/Bugs if you're interested. --MZMcBride (talk) 01:59, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm not criticizing Wikimedia or most larger open source projects because money and help is usually in short, short supply... It is the nature of the beast. Just pointing out the layout of the land. When the recent upgrade of Wikimedia to 1.17 ran into serious problems, it made me sick.... it reminded me of my late night upgrade sessions of programs/computers going wrong and the wrath of users/management. Believe me, I have empathy and way too much understanding for what Wikimedia developers/admins go thru. My main purpose of squeaking is why/what. Why listas and defaultsort are setup the way it is. If a programming solution is possible, what is the possible timeframe (years, could go on the todo list, soon)? If the feature can't/wont't be added for who knows when, then bots should add listas because listas is used now and for the foreseeable future. Bgwhite (talk) 06:24, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting (or at least I didn't intend to suggest) that Wikimedia doesn't deserve criticism. ;-)
For an organization whose bread and butter is built on technology, specifically MediaWiki, the code development and deployment situations should never have deteriorated (or perhaps developed) the way that they have. While it's certainly stressful to do a large upgrade of a site like the English Wikipedia, this stress is undoubtedly enhanced by delaying (for months) doing a code deployment, rather than doing continuous integration and weekly, bi-weekly, or even monthly syncs to the site. That is, while I sympathize with the people who are responsible for deploying the code and then debugging the issues that emerge from it, I sympathize to a much greater extent with the thousands of volunteers who are forced to use buggy code for months on end when fixes are readily available and are sitting in patches in Bugzilla or are committed to SVN, but not deployed to the live sites.
Squeaking is fine. I say so, Tim says so, a lot of people say so. In fact, it's what I primarily do with regard to MediaWiki development. A programming solution is possible for nearly any technical problem—given enough time and resources. While I often see great beauty in hacks (I really enjoy technical creativity), hacks are also features' worst enemies. Hacks are the band-aid that mask the wound and don't allow the underlying problem to ever be fully addressed. I'm convinced, for example, that the development of very good talk page archiving bots and category moving/renaming bots (both implemented primarily in m:pywikipedia) are the greatest reason it's taken so long to have proper discussion software and proper category moving software. The point being that while bots are sometimes inevitable, they can also actively slow down development, because the priority of these types of bugs suddenly drops when there's a workable (albeit hackish and ugly) solution available. For now, bots are probably the best way to go forward, though in this particular case, I don't believe it's worth my development time to work on this "listas" issue. That having been said, I don't have any issue publishing the source code of LaraBot or any other bot (if the code isn't already available) to allow others to create their own bots or submit patches. --MZMcBride (talk) 16:23, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Long talk pages

Hello, I came across Wikipedia:Database reports/Long pages and saw that it is updated by BernsteinBot, operated by you. I am wondering if there is any way to generate a list of longest talk pages that use the {{WikiProject Film}} template? I am looking to archive the longer ones after I had to archive one talk page that had scattered comments from the past five years. Let me know what is doable. Thanks, Erik (talk | contribs) 20:17, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Easy enough: --MZMcBride (talk) 06:05, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Excellent! Thank you so much. Erik (talk | contribs) 12:31, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

so I heard you don't liek hacky workarounds

Do you think you could poke someone so that this issue can be fixed sooner rather than later? I've got a hacky javascript workaround, and I read above about your thoughts on hacky workarounds. –xenotalk 15:50, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Done: rev:82804. --MZMcBride (talk) 19:36, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
Awersome. How long until I see the fruits of that labour? –xenotalk 19:37, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
Somewhere between two days and two years. --MZMcBride (talk) 19:50, 25 February 2011 (UTC)


{{you've got mail}} Bishonen | talk 21:22, 26 February 2011 (UTC).

{{replied}} --MZMcBride (talk) 22:00, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
{{template}} harej 21:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Wikimania 2012 bid, DC chapter & next meetup!

  1. At WikiXDC in January, User:Harej proposed that DC submit a bid to host Wikimania 2012. A bid and organizing committee is being formed and seeks additional volunteers to help. Please look at our bid page and sign up if you want to help out. You can also signup for the bid team's email list.
  2. To support the Wikimania bid, more events like WikiXDC, and outreach activities like collaborations with the Smithsonian (ongoing) and National Archives, there also has been discussion of forming Wikimedia DC, as an official Wikimedia chapter. You can express interest and contribute to chapter discussions on the Wikimedia DC Meta-Wiki pages.
  3. To discuss all this and meet up with special guest, Dutch Wikipedian User:Kim Bruning, there will be a meetup, Wikipedia:Meetup/DC 16 this Tuesday at 7pm, at Capitol City Brewery, Metro Center. There will be a pre-meetup Wikimania team meeting at 6pm at the same location.

Apologies for the short notice for this meetup, but let's discuss when, where & what for DC Meetup #17. Also, if you haven't yet, please join wikimedia-dc mailing list to stay informed. Cheers, User:Aude (talk)

Note: You can unsubscribe from DC meetup notices by removing your name at Wikipedia:Meetup/DC/Invite/List. -- Message delivered by AudeBot, on behalf of User:Aude