User talk:Mandruss

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Welcome! If you post here, I'll reply here; no point in scattering a conversation across two pages. I may ping you when I reply, or not, depending on how much I want to be sure you see my reply. If you want to be sure you see a reply, please add this page to your watchlist or just remember to check back later. I don't use Talkback.(Dontcha wish we could agree on one way to do this, and eliminate all the unnecessary confusion? I do.)

Contentious Editing Style[edit]

Please AGF and stop edit warring. Thanks. 166.70.213.246 (talk) 20:20, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Please see WP:BRD. I am not edit warring. ―Mandruss  20:21, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Calling someone a "black man" instead of "African American" is like using the word "nigger" to describe him. Just a suggestion. 166.70.213.246 (talk) 20:22, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
That's your opinion, but it is not the absolute indisputable fact that you make it out to be. This has been debated countless times at Wikipedia and many, many editors disagree with your assertion. That's why we have article talk pages, discussion, and consensus. The current consensus is for "black man", but you are free to try to change it on the article talk page. If you just re-revert, you are edit warring. ―Mandruss  20:25, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
You should AGF. I don't edit war, but when I run across a contentious editor, I just stay far, far away from them. They always eventually get blocked. 166.70.213.246 (talk) 20:33, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Works for me. ―Mandruss  20:34, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

A kitten for you![edit]

Kitten (06) by Ron.jpg

I prefer kittens myself.

Diego (talk) 12:18, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I like cats and dogs equally, although I have owned cats for 30 years because dogs need more of you than I'm prepared to give to a pet. I just had my 14-year-old extra-longhair Maine Coon shaved, the first time I've had a cat shaved, and now I'll be living with a very odd looking giant rat for the next several months. ―Mandruss  12:24, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Title of Wisconsin Department of Revenue v. William Wrigley Jr. Co.[edit]

Hey there -- I noticed that you recently moved the title of Wisconsin Department of Revenue v. William Wrigley Jr. Co. to remove the comma before and after the "Jr." in the name of the case. I understand that MOS:JR says that omission of the comma before "Jr." is preferred, but I think that provision of the MOS applies to names rather than titles. In fact, MOS:LAW provides the relevant guideline for titles of articles about legal cases -- the guideline explains that "Articles on cases should be titled according to the legal citation convention for the jurisdiction that handled the case." If you look at the title that is printed in the United States Reports (see this volume at p. 214), you will find that the official case title actually places a comma before and after the "Jr." in the name of the case. Any chance you move the page back to its previous title? Thanks in advance for your consideration. I hope all is well! Best, -- Notecardforfree (talk) 03:41, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

@Notecardforfree: Hi and thanks for your comments.
The prevailing community view is that the comma before Jr. is a style element, not an essential part of a name (a name of anything, not just a person). Thus there is no "correct" as to the comma, only one "house style" versus another, both legitimate and not inconsistent. English Wikipedia recently chose no-comma as our "house style" on the basis of a demonstrated trend away from the comma among authoritative style sources.
I note that the guideline you cited does not say anything specifically about that comma or any other punctuation, that is your interpretation of it. I can point you to some of the many request-for-move discussions where reasoning similar to yours has been argued for a U.S. national historic site, a library, a street, and so on, and has failed every time. Unless and until the community approves specific exception language for legal cases (at WT:MOSBIO), I don't think a move-back is the right move. ―Mandruss  09:45, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I haven't had a chance to read through the full discussion, but it looks like the the recent RfC that eliminated comma usage before "Jr." only applied to MOS:JR, which itself applies to names, rather than titles of books, movies, legal cases, etc-. Can you direct me to a discussion that shows the community has applied this rule (or intends for the rule to be applied) to titles, rather than names? I also think that the removal of commas before "Jr." in titles of legal cases, books, etc- likely conflicts with the express policy that article titles should be "based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." Would you also delete the comma in the title of The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr.? I should also note that MOS:BIO applies to articles about people, while MOS:LAW provides the relevant style guidelines about legal cases. Thanks again, -- Notecardforfree (talk) 17:52, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
@Notecardforfree: Again, the community's (non-unanimous) view is that this comma is a style element and, as such, doesn't automatically fall under general statements about references in reliable sources; i.e. we are not bound by anyone else's MOS. The guideline does make an exception for when the reliable sources clearly and consistently prefer the comma for a particular subject, but I think one would have to somehow show that the sources are not simply complying with their manuals of style. That question has not come up because we've yet to find a case where reliable sources did in fact "clearly and consistently" agree on the comma. I personally think that clause generates more heat than light.
No, I know of nothing that specifically includes any category from the guideline, nor do I know of anything that excludes any category. What I do know is that all attempts to establish such exceptions have failed. (These were all at article level, which in my opinion was the wrong place to do that.) The consensus ended years of heated debate about what many saw as a trivial matter (bikeshed), and I'm guessing people were suffering from comma-before-Jr fatigue and had had enough for awhile. It's entirely possible there is some work yet to be done as to the finer points.
I've been deliberately avoiding titles of copyrighted works because I can see a potential issue there, but I don't think legal cases are copyrighted. I expect the copyrighted-works issue to be raised at MOSBIO eventually.
Given the shift in community thinking on the matter, MOSBIO is probably the wrong place for the guideline, strictly speaking, and it will need to be moved elsewhere before long. For the time being, WT:MOSBIO is the place to discuss this. If you feel strongly about it, I encourage you to raise it there—ideally as a specific and concise proposal that can be !voted up or down—and we'll all of course go along with any change to the guideline that you are able to get there. Absent that, I remain unconvinced. Or, you could just go test the water on this question and, depending on how that went, possibly follow with the specific proposal (similar to how WP:VPI and WP:VPR are (intended to be) used). ―Mandruss  18:14, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
@Notecardforfree: Update after sleep. The first sentence at WP:MOSBIO begins: "This page sets out guidelines for achieving visual and textual consistency in biographical articles and in biographical information in other articles...". Emphasis added. Given that, there is less need to move MOS:JR. ―Mandruss  13:59, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

I tend to agree that MOS:LAW has precedence for the case/article title, saying "Articles on cases should be titled according to the legal citation convention for the jurisdiction that handled the case." Within the article, however, I'd follow MOS:JR for the person name. Dicklyon (talk) 14:44, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: Ok, then my response is that article level is the wrong place to decide these questions. It just makes no sense from an efficiency standpoint, requiring people to repeatedly show community consensus via a list of links to local consensuses, as you've done. Someone should take this to WT:MOSBIO, try to get a consensus, update WP:JR with the consensus (or not, depending on the consensus), and be done with it forever. Since I'm not the one advocating for the exception, I don't think that should be me. Put differently, differences of opinion in interpretation of guidelines should be addressed by clarifying the guidelines, not by re-arguing them again and again at article level. ―Mandruss  14:54, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
A discussion of the relationship between MOS:BIO and MOS:LAW and such would make sense, at WT:MOS. Dicklyon (talk) 16:25, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
@Mandruss: Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful responses to these issues. However, I still don't think that a title of a work should be considered "biographical information." Indeed, there are many titles on Wikipedia that don't comply with relevant style elements, but we usually defer to the conventions of the person, group, or institution that created that title. See, for example, Aaahh!!! Real Monsters, Ooooooohhh... On the TLC Tip, is 5, anyone lived in a pretty how town, etc-. I also don't understand why you are distinguishing between titles of copyrighted works and non-copyrighted works, though I agree that there should be a larger discussion to reconcile these various issues. In any event, I very much appreciate your willingness to take the time to engage in a dialogue about this and your measured, considerate responses. All the best, -- Notecardforfree (talk) 19:32, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
@Mandruss: FYI, I have opened a discussion about the applicability of MOS:JR to the titles of non-biographical articles at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Question about applicability of MOS:JR to non-biographical article titles. I am also pinging Dicklyon, who also contributed to this discussion. Best, -- Notecardforfree (talk) 20:41, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for doing that. I'll be watching with interest, but silently for the time being. ―Mandruss  20:46, 26 July 2016 (UTC)