User talk:Matthiaspaul

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List of abbreviations in photography[edit]

Hello! Thanks for your useful contributions to the list of photographic abbreviations, which I started some months ago. For a long time I seemed to be the only one working on it. I'm glad to have other expertise to enlarge it and correct errors. I set up the list when returning to serious photography in the digital age, after a long absence from 35mm film photography. I found the numerous abbreviations that were bandied about on the digital discussion groups baffling, so I began to list them, partly to educate myself, and partly because newcomers like myself seemed not to have easy access to listed explanations. All help welcome! martinev (talk) 13:59, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you as well. --Matthiaspaul (talk)

Old edit authorship info[edit]

Just for the records, this is to acknowledge that the following IP edits in the English Wikipedia belong to myself (just in case questions would arise in regard to them and someone wanted to contact me):

  • 1 edit under IP on 2006-11-05T03:53:55 on article:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 5 edits under IP between 2007-02-11T02:42:21‎ and 2007-02-11T02:54:00‎ on article:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 2 edits under IP between 2007-02-11T03:10:22‎ and 2007-02-11T03:14:18‎ on article:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 3 edits under IP between 2007-02-12T05:45:50 and 2007-02-12T05:57:16 on articles:
Carl Zeiss AG, Minolta AF
  • 13 edits under IP between 2007-02-12T19:07:21 and 2007-02-12T19:56:24 on articles:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 1 edit under IP on 2007-02-25T13:10:07‎ on article:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 3 edits under IP between 2007-02-28T11:07:20 and 2007-02-28T11:09:35‎ on article:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 2 edits under IP between 2007-03-01T12:34:15 and 2007-03-01T12:37:03 on article:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 1 edit under IP on 2007-03-03T21:21:48‎ on article:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 1 edit under IP on 2007-03-09T03:14:29 on article:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 2 edits under IP between 2007-07-19T00:40:04 and 2007-07-19T00:45:27 on article:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 4 edits under IP between 2007-07-20T23:43:59 and 2007-07-21T00:20:55 on article:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 2 edits under IP between 2009-07-20T22:39:24 and 2009-07-21T10:11:56 on article:
  • 2 edits under IP between 2009-07-29T01:12:21‎ and 2009-07-29T01:13:56‎ on article:
  • 1 edit under IP on 2007-09-08T06:09:28 on article:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 1 edit under IP on 2007-10-03T00:08:35 on article:
  • 1 edit under IP on 2007-11-10T18:35:26 on article:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 2 edits under IP between 2007-11-11T01:42:21 and 2007-11-11T01:44:28 on article:
Carl Zeiss AG
  • 33 edits under IP between 2009-10-01T17:58:20 and 2009-10-09T19:03:37 on articles:
Video Floppy, Sony Mavica, Full-frame digital SLR, Talk:Sony Alpha, Crop factor, Talk:Crop factor, Herbert Keppler, Kodak DCS Pro 14n, Kodak DCS Pro SLR/n, Kodak DCS Pro SLR/c, Talk:Nikon D3, Template:Konica Minolta/Sony DSLR cameras
  • 9 edits under IP between 2009-10-13T03:26:16 and 2009-10-17T17:06:50 on articles:
Bulb (photography), Talk:Bulb (photography), Full-frame digital SLR, Sony Alpha, Template:Nikon DSLR cameras
  • 2 edits under IP between 2010-07-03T20:57:11 and 2010-07-03T21:23:58 on article:
Herbert Keppler
  • 5 edits under IP between 2010-07-20T12:37:09 and 2010-07-20T12:55:57 on articles:
Sony Mavica, Sony E-mount
  • 1 edit under IP on 2010-10-17T18:33:01‎ on article:
  • 2 edits under IP between 2010-10-17T18:56:36 and 2010-10-17T19:04:20 on articles:
File talk:Château Grimaldi, Antibes, Alpes-Maritimes, France.jpg
  • 2 edits under IP between 2010-10-17T22:54:42 and 2010-10-17T23:03:02 on articles:
Wikipedia:Graphics Lab/Photography workshop, File talk:Château Grimaldi, Antibes, Alpes-Maritimes, France.jpg
  • 1 edit under IP on 2010-12-18T17:16:19‎ on article:
DX encoding
  • 1 edit under IP on 2011-02-26T16:32:50 on article:
Mercury battery
  • 7 edits under IP between 2011-04-03T20:18:29 and 2011-04-04T17:30:29 and on articles:
Ultrasonic motor, SSM, SDM, HSM, Xsm, USD
  • 4 edits under IP between 2011-05-01T21:25:00 and 2011-05-01T22:57:12 on articles:
AARD code, Talk:AARD code
  • 3 edits under IP between 2011-05-04T03:52:31 and 2011-05-04T13:21:53 on article:
iISO flash shoe
  • 12 edits under IP between 2011-07-11T01:50:44 and 2011-07-10T19:46:56 on articles:
Shutter priority, Mode dial, Aperture priority, f-number
  • 5 edits under IP between 2011-07-11T11:16:39 and 2011-07-11T20:43:36 on articles:
f-number, Talk:f-number
  • 2 edits under IP between 2011-07-12T19:02:55 and 2011-07-12T19:04:26 on article:
APEX system
  • 1 edit under IP on 2011-07-14T19:36:23‎ on article:
Film speed
  • 5 edits under between 2011-07-23T02:25:55 and 2011-07-23T03:14:50 on article:
DX encoding
  • 1 edit under on 2011-07-23T13:07:53 on article:
DX encoding
  • 3 edits under IP between 2011-07-24T13:49:32 and 2011-07-24T20:50:05 on article:
Film speed
  • 35 edits under IP between 2011-07-25T10:53:40 and 2011-07-26T05:20:14 on articles:
Film speed, Talk:Film speed, Template:ISO standards, List of DIN standards, ISO 518, List of International Organization for Standardization standards, International Organization for Standardization
  • 9 edits under IP between 2011-07-26T10:43:59 and 2011-07-26T18:22:45 on articles:
Film speed, Talk:Film speed
  • 2 edits under IP between 2011-07-26T21:22:06 and 2011-07-26T23:31:50 on articles:
Julius Scheiner, Talk:Film speed
  • 43 edits under IP between 2011-07-27T09:31:48 and 2011-07-28T05:22:38 on articles:
Film speed, Edward Weston (disambiguation), Weston, Edward Weston (chemist), Weston (surname), Ge, HD, SCH, Deutsches Institut für Normung, Ferdinand Hurter, Vero Charles Driffield, Hurter and Driffield
  • 26 edits under IP between 2011-07-28T11:04:33 and 2011-07-29T01:14:22 on articles:
Film speed, Photographic film, Talk:Film speed
  • 7 edits under IP between 2011-07-29T10:29:39 and 2011-07-29T11:58:30 on articles:
Film speed, Hurter and Driffield, Talk:Film speed
  • 38 edits under IP between 2011-07-30T13:18:48 and 2011-07-31T05:23:27 on articles:
Film speed, Hurter and Driffield, Josef Maria Eder, Edward Weston (chemist), ISO 6, ISO 2240, ISO 5800, Ferdinand Hurter, Vero Charles Driffield, American National Standards Institute, ISO 12232, Talk:Film speed , Goodwin (surname), Talk:Howard N. Potts Medal, Goodwin, Leon Warnerke, Sensitometry
  • 20 edits under IP between 2011-07-31T12:31:54 and 2011-08-01T00:44:51 on articles:
Josef Maria Eder, Film speed, Talk:Film speed, Leon Warnerke, Edward Weston (chemist)
  • 5 edits under IP between 2011-08-01T11:15:00 and 2011-08-01T17:19:41 on articles:
Film speed, Canon A-1, Focal-plane shutter
  • 19 edits under IP between 2011-08-02T11:18:41 and 2011-08-03T01:12:31 on articles:
Hurter and Driffield, Film speed, Loyd A. Jones, Ferdinand Hurter, Vero Charles Driffield, Josef Maria Eder, Alfred Watkins, Leon Warnerke, Julius Scheiner
  • 12 edits under IP between 2011-08-03T10:40:56 and 2011-08-03T14:20:49 on articles:
Josef Maria Eder, Film speed, William de Wiveleslie Abney, Film speed, Sensitometry, Talk:Kodachrome, Edward Weston (chemist)
I do no longer use these dynamic IPs and do not claim authorship of edits under these IPs before or after the specified date ranges above.
There were more contributions in the English as well as in foreign-language Wikipedias, in particular the German Wikipedia, but it is difficult to remember them after all these years. So far, the earliest edit I could track back was on 2005-11-30. Mostly for my own curiosity I'll continue to document them when I happen to stumble upon them, but perhaps it will become technically possible to merge such IP edits into a user account somewhen in the future. We'll see.

--Matthiaspaul (talk)


Hi, Matthias. I think you have not really understood the implications of fully including Pentax Q into the MILC cathegory. In fact, MILCs were originally designed "to provide SRL-like image in a small body", whereas - due to its sensor - Pentax Q is just a "compact camera with interchangeable lenses", with no image-quality advantage over remaining compact cameras. Therefore, by including it in MILCS you are actually changing the original definition of MILCs !! A very vague and poor definition, I agree, because no reference to a "large sensor" is contained in the MILC acronim. Nonetheless if you want to use MILC for what it literally means, and apply it to all mirrorless interchangeable-lenses cameras, you can not stop by editing the introduction: you have to edit all subsequent paragraphs stating that MILCs provide a better image than compact camera do !! Not all "your MILCs" do !! So either you proceed to editing the whole article, or it should be reverted to its previous state. Now it is contradictory and false. Marcus MarcusGR (talk) 17:47, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Marcus. The problem with the original definition of MILC is that there is none. Please point me to an authorative source where it is defined, I'm quite sure you won't find one. The term is made up, therefore, vague. And that's why different people have different ideas of what it might stand for. As far as I am concerned, I interpret it literally and do not see any implied meaning such as "larger sensor than in compact digital cameras", "better quality than in compacts", "DSLR-like quality" in it. That's just marketing speak and not relevant for the article. Therefore I suggest to keep the intro of the article free of any implied assumptions. After all, WP is an encyclopedia, and we should be very careful in our wording to not coin new terms and meanings ourselves or to let WP become an instrument of viral marketing. If there are multiple real or assumed meanings of the term, we should not brush the article in one way or the other (which would only create new bias) but discuss these different definitions further down in the article (but not in the intro, it just doesn't belong in there). And we should be careful to use neutral language. To be honest, my interest in the article is limited (for as long as it remains in the generally bad state as it is), I just saw way too much distracting jargon and rumor mill showing up in the intro, and therefore tried to suggest some more encyclopedic direction how to further develop the article. You seem to be eager to contribute to the article, so please go ahead, but perhaps try to use a bit less "enthusiastic" language given that this is not a forum or such, but an encyclopedia. All the best. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 12:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Dimensions of photometric units[edit]

Hi Matthiaspaul. Can you answer the question at Template talk:SI light units#Dimension column incorrect?, about the Dimensions column you added to Template:SI light units?--Srleffler (talk) 03:11, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Answer given on discussion page. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 12:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC)


Thank you for clearing my WP:VPT mis-edit. At least now I know where my typings went. -DePiep (talk) 21:15, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

 ;-) Glad I could help out. I guess this has happened to all of us at times... --Matthiaspaul (talk)


CopyClean Barnstar.png The Copyright Cleanup Barnstar
For your good work in locating and removing the copyvios on USB 3.0. Yunshui  09:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Thank you. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 09:15, 10 November 2011 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Matthiaspaul. You have new messages at Wikipedia talk:India Education Program.
Message added 10:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

IEP clean up[edit]

Hi. If you come across many disruptive IP edits that geolocate to India, or if individual IPs have a history of persistent disruption, particularly on such articles as Five-Year plans of India, please let me know directly and I will consider sem-protecting the page and/or blocking the offenders. Thanks. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:38, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Yep. --Matthiaspaul (talk)

Your request for rollback[edit]

Wikipedia Rollback.svg

Hi Matthiaspaul. After reviewing your request for rollback, I have enabled rollback on your account. Keep in mind these things when going to use rollback:

  • Getting rollback is no more momentous than installing Twinkle.
  • Rollback should never be used to edit war.
  • If abused, rollback rights can be revoked.
  • Use common sense.

If you no longer want rollback, contact me and I'll remove it. Also, for some more information on how to use rollback, see Wikipedia:New admin school/Rollback (even though you're not an admin). I'm sure you'll do great with rollback, but feel free to leave me a message on my talk page if you run into troubles or have any questions about appropriate/inappropriate use of rollback. Thank you for helping to reduce vandalism. Happy editing! Swarm X 20:04, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Thank you for your cleanup efforts, and keep up the good work. Swarm X 20:04, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. --Matthiaspaul (talk)

Two barnstars for the price of one! (How often do you see that?)[edit]

Vitruvian Barnstar.png The da Vinci Barnstar
Incredible job keeping the Template:SI radiometry units template so technically accurate! Vaughan Pratt (talk) 06:58, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Blueprint Barnstar 2.PNG The Template Barnstar
and moreover it's a template so you get the great-template barnstar too Vaughan Pratt (talk) 06:58, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally you might like to critique the analysis at Planck's law#Crash_course_in_radiometry in case you see any opportunities for corrections, improvements, etc. This article has been under seige since Oct. 13, accounting for the abnormal level of traffic at its talk page since then. --Vaughan Pratt (talk) 06:58, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

What a nice surprise, thanks. ;-) I'm very busy right now, but I'll have a look when time allows. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 09:15, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Multiple inheritance[edit]

Hi. Thank you for replying. I consider the community's concern over this very serious issue of copyvio. I know many of my course mates have done that which is really sad. I apolozise on their behalf. But I dont understand the need of removing my contents entirely from the page even when it was not a confirmed copyvio. I mean what will I show to my instructor? My project deadline has also elapsed. Please tell me what should I do. Also our instructor has informed has to stop all the further edits on wikipedia. I guess this answers your question. RAJATPASARI (talk) 08:07, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Answer given on talk page. I hope this can be sorted out for you, Rajat. --Matthiaspaul (talk)

"unexplained addition of tags"[edit]

I gave an explanation, in the first parameter of {{prod}}: in my opinion, the articles I tagged did not meet the notability criteria. Maybe I should have been somewhat more verbose: I could not find significant coverage in multiple, reliable sources, and I seriously doubt one could find any (and by the way, "Doscore" most probably has been created in violation of WP:COI, but I decided not to bring this up; failing to be notable should be enough). After all, if the articles' subjects were notable, adding reliable sources to them would be easy, right? But that is precisely what you did not do, even though the burden of proof on whether content is verifiable lies with the one who claims it is. So I think removal of these tags is even less warranted, and correct me if I'm wrong, but given your edit summary, it seems to me simply as an act of spite. As for having "an agenda to have lots of articles deleted" - well, yes, I am a deletionist. And an immediatist too. And I just happened to stumble across several pages that in my opinion were not worthy of inclusion. What should I wait for before proposing each of them for deletion? Thank you for your attention. (talk) 22:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Request for Time: India Education Program Learnings[edit]

Hi. I'm writing to request a favor. The India Education Program pilot is concluding in Pune, India. It has been extraordinarily challenging and a series of learnings have emerged from the pilot that we intend to take on board to inform the way forward. I had promised an honest, open and comprehensive review. There are multiple ways that we are trying to collate and distill these learnings. One of these is that the Foundation has commissioned a study to do in depth interviews with a wide variety of folks who were directly or indirectly involved in the pilot. The include discussions with students, Ambassadors, faculty as well as members of the global community such as yourself. I thought it would be really particularly useful if we could get your views. You have been involved in the project (albeit not as part of the formal project structure.) I thank you for your involvement. You have made some interesting and insightful comments in the discussions you have participated in. Would you be willing and available for the person working on this study so that she can get your feedback and suggestions and comments? If so, would you let me know on my talk page? Do also let me know how I can have her reach out to you. Many thanks in advance. Hisham (talk) 10:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Hisham. I answered on your talk page. --Matthiaspaul (talk)

Would be kind enough to explain the abbreviation?[edit]

Fälschungserschwerende Schrift is abbreviated FE-Schrift. If the "E" is not from ende, then where does it originate? SBHarris 20:49, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi! I tried that in the edit summary, but it was difficult due to the length limit. The German term "FE-Schrift" is short for "Fälschungserschwerende Schrift" (which directly translates to "falsification-hindering typeface" in English). FE is simply derived from the compound word "fälschungserschwerend". The "-end" in "erschwerend" has nothing to do with the German word "Ende" (English: end), it just marks this word as an adjective, and since "die Schrift" (typeface) is female in German, an "-e" is added after the adjective, hence "erschwerende Schrift". The corresponding verb would be "erschweren" (to hinder). Greetings. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 21:00, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
That makes sense. Would you be good enough to add that to the .en article? Since it's not at all obvious to English readers which E is being used for the "FE" abbreviation/acronym, and why. Thanks! SBHarris 21:08, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Very nice addition. Now it makes sense to English users. Thanks again. SBHarris 21:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
You're welcome. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 21:44, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Pune pilot analysis plan[edit]

Hi! As you were very active in discussions about the India Education Program's Pune pilot, I wanted to draw your attention to Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Analysis, a page that documents our analysis plan for the next few months. I encourage you to join the discussion if you have any thoughts. -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 23:09, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer, LiAnna. I'll have a look. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 14:43, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I just sent you email regarding participating in the Pune Pilot Project Review.Toryread (talk) 00:24, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Alright, Tory, I have received your mail. Please expect my answer until the end of the week. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 14:43, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


Thanks for the reminder. But the moment I've seen your changes at the exFAT page [been also reading about the confusion in terms a while ago] I took care of it. The word "FAT64" doesn't exist at my website anymore. ;-)
I've also changed the URL to point to [I've updated the URI at the wiki page too ;-)], and the section title now reads exFAT.
BTW... exFAT *is* for all intents and purposes Microsoft's "next gen" FAT32 [that's why was also called FAT64 when it was released] for portable drives/USB sticks/SSDs/cards/cartridges. They basically fixed most FAT32 flaws + limitations, and added some NTFS/ext4/HFS features into the punch. They could have expanded/improved upon NTFS, but they chose the old FAT32 instead. ;-/ I haven't been curious to find out why (yet).
Thanks for keeping us on our toes.
Best wishes,
MDGx 22:26, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Great, thanks. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 13:39, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Since you mentioned that "it was called FAT64 when it was released", can you point me to Microsoft documents actually naming it FAT64 originally? Thanks. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 14:43, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
I did not find the original wording anymore anywhere at the MS website. They must have removed it too. ;-/
I did find proof that MS considers exFAT the successor to FAT32: here.
HTH [hope this helps]
MDGx 21:25, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Microsoft may not have any references to FAT64 anymore, but these guys do. I have no idea how/if their FAT64 relates to MS's exFAT. They have a powerpoint slide presentation with details.
MDGx 21:44, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I also found this book, which refers to FAT64 as a nickname for exFAT: searching thru the book [bottom of webpage search box], I found 2 references to FAT64, at pages 3 + 76.
MDGx 22:10, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Where is no such limit and FAT32 implementations in other operating systems?[edit]

Don't believe if there is reference missing-- (talk) 06:29, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi, IP! Well, it may be difficult to give a reference for something (a limit) that does not exist. ;-) I can only guess, why Microsoft documents a limit on the number of sub-directory entries for their implementation of FAT32, but they also document a size limit of 32 GB for their implementation of FAT32. The design of the FAT32 file system does not have any such limits, both the 32 GB limit and the 65534 limit are artificial.
The practical size limit for FAT32 volumes is 2 TB, because this is when the 32-bit entry for the number of sectors runs out in the partitition table in the MBR and the original FAT32 bootsector (where the size of the partition is specified in sectors) and also, because most file system and disk drivers implement 32-bit arithmetics only. For non-bootable FAT32 volumes, which are not necessarily listed in the partition table or do need to have a standard FAT32 BPB, for sector sizes larger than 512 bytes, the actual FAT32 design limits are even higher. A FAT32 volume can have close to 2^28 clusters, so assuming a maximum cluster size of 32 KB, the FAT32 limit would be at 8 TB, assuming 64 KB clusters, it would be at 16 TB. (Some operating systems even implement proprietary extensions to this original FAT32 design, for example, they use logical sector sizes up to 16 KB, cluster sizes up to 256 KB or FAT widths of 32-bit instead of 28-bit, but I won't go into details of such third-party extensions here.) As you can see, a partition size limit of just 32 GB in MS operating systems is completely artifical and is not the result of *any* technical limitation.
Similarly, the Microsoft documented 65534 number of entries per sub-directory limit is artificial as well. A sub-directory is not much different from a file with a directory attribute set. Normally, the maximum size of a file on a FAT32 volume is 4 GB - 1 (this is imposed by the 32-bit file size entry in the directory table), so (putting VFAT LFNs aside for a moment), this would theoretically allow for 134217728 directory entries (each 32 bytes long). VFAT LFNs take up additional entries, the longer the VFAT name, the more. Up to 20 VFAT entries (each 32 bytes long) may be used per file entry. Since VFAT LFNs are optional, we end up with 1 to 21 directory entries (that is 32 bytes to 672 bytes) consumed per file or sub-directory on a FAT volume. So, even in a worst case scenario, we'd still have up to 6391320 directory entries.
Anyway, the design of FAT32 does not have this limitation per se. In reality, sub-directories have the size entry set to 0 for "N/A", that is, they don't have something like a size measurable in bytes. They are only limited by their length of the cluster chain in the FAT, so, for as long as there are free clusters to extend the chain, sub-directories can grow "indefinitely". As discussed above, a FAT32 volume (following the original design, not those mentioned third-party extensions) can have up to 2^28 - 12 (268435444) clusters. Of course, assuming that each directory entry corresponds with a file, the files defined by these directory entries have their own cluster chains in the FAT. Assuming, they are all very small or at least one byte in size, each of them takes up a single cluster in the FAT as well, reducing the number of available clusters for the sub-directory chain respectively.
Nevertheless, even in a worst case scenario we would still end up with several thousand times as many entries as those 65534 entries documented by Microsoft. Since a reasonably good implementation does not introduce artificial limits not found in the design of the file system, there is no reason, why such limits should exist in third-party implementations of FAT32. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 13:39, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Secure Digital[edit]

Hi! Thanks for your edits and your technical knowledge of FAT32 vs exFAT, to which I defer. I have massaged the large paragraph you edited for reasons given in the change history; notably, that it seems partly to be an editorial against SDA's decision to use exFAT. This controversy is not an inappropriate subject for the article, but you should point to citations of that opinion rather than just state it as our own.

I have other clerical problems with the edits. In the first sentence of "Compatibility with SDHC," you begin, "If the card controller has been enhanced to support this...." I would at least turn this around to define "this" first. But my understanding was that the SDXC spec required host devices to support older cards. If this is untrue--if it allows "dual compatibility" host devices--then your change to the sentence is to say "Host devices either do or they don't" and it would be better to say nothing.

And in the last sentence, "on protocol level" confuses me. The sentence already said that choice of the file system is the problem, and protocol-level support doesn't matter if the gadget won't work. Spike-from-NH (talk) 12:30, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Just a note to both of you, which we all know, don't reference something that is NOT publically available, like SD Card Spec 4.0. You will need to limit statements to what can publically be found about 4.0, like SD Card Spec web pages and press releases and 3rd-party articles. I'm not a SD Card Spec member, so I can't download 4.0, and neither can most of the world. I wish that I had access to all the SDA documents, but unfortunately I don't. • SbmeirowTalk • 17:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Though SDA chose to require SDXC card makers to ship with exFAT, it is actually a minor limitation, because the card can be reformatted to other more popular file systems. This should be made obvious and clarified in the article. • SbmeirowTalk • 17:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


Thank you for reverting the undo of SDSC; Sbmeirow noted that SDSC is used in the specs in the article's talk page. Separately, I will revert your change that made conditional the assertion at the start of "Compatibility with SDHC". In addition to my vague citation on Sbmeirow's talk page, Simplified Physical Layer v3.01 says "Hosts that can access...SD memory cards with a capacity greater than 32 GB and up to 2 TB [that is, SDXC], shall also be able to access SD memory cards with a capacity of 32 GB or less." Sec. 3.3.2, Note 3. You have made the case that a decision to embrace exFAT would be problematic; but that would seem to be the only issue in the way of backward-compatibility of host devices. Spike-from-NH (talk) 17:56, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Hm, the term SDSC seems to be kind of an afterthought. Try a Google search for it, almost nobody is using this term so far. Nevertheless, it is good that the SDA has coined the name because naming the old type of cards and the family of cards the same has caused alot of confusion.
Regarding the compatibility issues, exFAT is by definition mandantory for all SDXC cards. While we can re-format to FAT32 when using an SDXC card to exchange data between PCs, all SDXC-enabled digital cameras and corders I have seen so far do not accept a FAT32-reformatted SDXC card. Even in the user manuals, manufacturers clearly state, that SDXC requires exFAT to be used and that this is supported only by a few (typically listed) operating systems. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 15:52, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Further edits[edit]

I understand why you changed "dominant" to "wide-spread" [sic] at the end of the article's first paragraph. But the softened result says almost nothing. As the clause's only function was to provide an official interpretation for the statistics that preceded it, I just removed it entirely--sticking in a comment that, if someone wants to point to an authoritative interpretation of SD's dominance, they should reinsert it, but with citations.

I do not like the implication you reinserted that, essentially, SDA had no good reason to go with exFAT and should have stuck with FAT32. I tend to agree with the conclusion but the language seems judgemental. If the assertion is correct that FAT32 above 32 GB would be legal but wouldn't be supported by Windows, that is a huge reason not to go with it.

Your tagging stuff with {fact} goes against what I thought I knew, but I could be wrong. There are also grammar and organizational things about your edits left to fix. Spike-from-NH (talk) 17:33, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Partition type[edit]

Your new material on partition type needs refinement. SDHC "Capacity smaller than 8 GB" and "Capacity larger than 8 GB" leaves ambiguous what you do when the capacity is exactly 8 GB. Likewise, above it, "between 16 MB and 32 MB" may want additional words to ensure that the endpoints are included.

Separately, what type to declare a partition as, for best results under a given OS, doesn't seem specific to SD and might want to be located in a different article. Spike-from-NH (talk) 12:47, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Anchors at File Allocation Table[edit]


I don't understand why you've reinserted numerous comments of the format <!-- NB. The header "FAT16B" is used in redirects to this page. -->: these are superfluous because that's implied by {{anchor}} anyway, or simply by the header itself for #FAT32 (though I goofed on adding an anchor there). Additionally, the one for exFAT is simply wrong: there should be no redirects to File Allocation Table#exFAT, as they should instead point directly at the separate article.

My apologies for replacing the visible space entities, by the way: I wasn't looking carefully enough at the output. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:27, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi Chris. People frequently change section headers without being aware that they might be used as anchors for redirects. Therefore, it is common practice at Wikipedia to indicate the usage of a section as an anchor in a comment immediately following the section header. I agree, the comments could be removed where we can use the anchor template, since its usage implies that there are redirects to them. I added them merely for consistency reasons. You are right about the exFAT label, which is unlikely to be used as a redirect target given that a separate exFAT article exists. I envisioned it could become a local anchor for quick navigation inside the article itself, similar to what is done in the film speed article, where links like "ISO" or "ASA" or "DIN" would not jump to external articles but just to the local section, and inside the corresponding section they would jump to the corresponding external article. Makes navigation much easier, however, it requires a certain degree of consistency within the article. We have achieved that in film speed over the course of months, but the structure of the File Allocation Table article is not quite there right now, I think, therefore, the comment is not necessary at present and I have removed it. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 12:47, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
IMO if the comments duplicate the {{anchor}}s then they should be removed: we don't habitually comment the use of templates in articles. As for the use of internal links, IMO those are Easter eggs: readers expect that a blue link will go to a page with that title, not to jump around in a page. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:18, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Chris, the comments have already been removed yesterday where we use the {{anchor}} template, so this is already a non-issue.
Regarding the internal links, I'm afraid, I disagree. Please have a look at film speed, which has been styled this way, and please try it out yourself. If you are on a page about film speeds and there's a link to terms link "ISO" or "ASA" or "DIN" etc. the first you want to know about them is "ISO film speed", "ASA film speed" or "DIN film speed", and this is, where the links link to locally. Before the change, it was really annoying ("easter-eggish" or so to speak), that clicks to these links did not reveal anything about film speeds but brought you to unrelated articles on the standardisation bodies, mostly irrelevant in the context of film speeds. However, once you are inside a section about, say, "DIN", it no longer makes sense to link to the section title of that very section, so instead you'd be brought to the article about the DIN organization. It is perfectly intuitive. Those, who were really looking for an explanation of the abbreviation DIN in the first place will either find that basic information in the DIN section as well, or they'll have to click another link to actually get to the external article.
Whatever, it depends on the scope, structure and length of the article if this works great or if it may cause harm. I envision the FAT article to be another article of this kind, so that you can switch between FAT12, FAT16, FAT32, VFAT, BPB, EBPB, XBPB, etc. sections in a second without any annoying scrolling and searching. But the article does not, at present, have the consistent structure and nomenclature to achieve this, and it is months of adding actual content to the article, working on nomenclature and improving phrases before anything like this could or should be tried, IMO. I was not saying that I am going to introduce this scheme now (or ever), I was just mentioning, that this is what I must have had in mind when adding the HTML comment on the exFAT section originally. Neverthess, a non-issue at present, since the comment is long gone since yesterday, anyway. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 15:59, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
I've got to disagree, I'm afraid. Navigation around the article is what the table of contents is for. I have a strong aversion to using intra-article links, especially as a matter of course as in film speed. This appears to be a relatively recent addition to said article and certainly isn't widely used, or suggested in the MoS. The FAT article's issues with navigation are mostly due to its great length: it's probably time to seriously think about splitting it up and making it a WP:SUMMARY of individual sub-articles. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 20:32, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Pat Villani[edit]

Hi! I just signed in after a long Wiki hiatus and saw your message regarding my user page for Pat Villani.

You're welcome to merge any information there into the current Pat Villani article, although you seem to have done a great job of expanding the article already, so I don't think my little user page would be of any help anymore.

I also wanted to let you know that I am actually Pat Villani's daughter, and there are a few small errors and unverified facts in the current article that I can either correct or confirm as true -- however, using myself as a source would certainly run afoul of Wikipedia:No original research. You're a more experienced Wikipedian than I am -- any ideas about how we might want to handle this? - Aeonian (talk) 17:37, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Erika, it's nice to hear from you and I hope you are fine. Actually, I left the note before I even started to expand the article myself in an (ultimately successful) attempt to keep it from being deleted. Whilst I knew your father from the FreeDOS project and had no doubt about his achievements in regard to the project, it turned out to be quite difficult to establish notability (in WP terms, that is) from available online sources, but fortunately the proposed deletion could be turned down eventually. I have meanwhile collected some more material, but have not come around to add it to the article. If you can help out with better references, including offline sources, for as long as they are citable, or can otherwise flesh out the article beyond the FreeDOS stuff or if you can correct details, I think this would be most welcome. If you think you can manage to maintain the neutral point of view, I would suggest that you just go ahead and if you have questions I'll happily assist. Cheers --Matthiaspaul (talk) 15:29, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

BAP (German band)[edit]

Hi. Following the change you made to the introductory wording of the Bap (German band) article here, you don't think that people reading this article will now assume that the band's name is an acronym pronounced "B-A-P" in the same way as bands such as AKB48, AC/DC, KRS-One, UB40, and UFO (band)? I suggest you have a look at the articles for Kiss (band), Chemistry (band), Exile (Japanese band), and Glay, as these are all good examples of articles for bands that normally write their names stylistically in all-caps, but which correctly follow the Wikipedia Manual of Style guidelines laid out at WP:MOSTM. I hope you can work to bring this article up to Wikipedia standards too. Thanks. --DAJF (talk) 11:31, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi. Of the mentioned articles, I think, the one most closely resembling the szenario with BAP is the Glay article, because Kiss, Chemistry and Exile are all "normal" words in the English language, so it's kind of natural to apply English grammar rules. Similar to Glay, BAP is not a "normal" word. However, there are differences as well, as the Glay play-on-words is based on the English language, whereas the BAP sort-of-play-on-words is based on a foreign language, Kölsch, a strong dialect of the German language. Further, the Japanese language does not have a concept of upper and lower-case letters, as far as I know. The German language certainly has, and the rules are more strict and stringent than in the English language. So, what might be almost don't care or a matter of fashion for a Japanese band, is an aspect of identity for a German band. Also, the Glay article states "(stylized as GLAY)", whereas the BAP article stated "(often stylized as BAP)", which is simply not true (unless we omit the "often" and replace "stylized as" by "written as"). You won't find any publications (except for the English Wikipedia and its derivatives), where the band's name would be written as Bap, therefore, I don't consider it a question of style to write it BAP, it's a given. I am not familiar with Glay, therefore I don't know, if they use both forms Glay and GLAY and just prefer the GLAY form. If the GLAY form is consistently used in publications I would consider it wrong for us to present them as Glay in Wikipedia. The purpose of the Manual of Style is not to invent new forms which don't exist elsewhere, but to help make a good decision if multiple styles are available to choose from. The MOS is of no use if there is only one available variant and no alternative, as it is in the case of BAP. Inventing the new "Bap" form is what I consider unsourced interpretation or original research; it's fundamentally wrong by Wikipedia's rules. The solution seems to be to refine the Manual of Style in order to allow exceptions such as GLAY and BAP, so that we could avoid such discussions in the future.
A good counter-example to Glay may be INXS. Noone would start writing them as "Inxs" just for compliancy with Wikipedia's MOS. The difference to BAP is that INXS is widely known in the English speaking world, so people easily recognize the problem with Inxs, whereas the same people don't seem to see a similar problem with Bap.
(Is UFO actually pronounced as U-F-O?) --Matthiaspaul (talk) 13:31, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
For your interest, "bap" is a common word in the English language, just like "kiss" and "chemistry". The band "UFO" is pronounced "U-F-O" (not "yoofow"). --DAJF (talk) 13:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, I didn't know that. ;-) --Matthiaspaul (talk) 13:58, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


Much appreciated. (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:07, 4 March 2012 (UTC).


I thought categorizing redirects such as Wikipedia:IPA for Kölsch was not allowed by Wikipedia MoS; however I could be wrong.--Carnby (talk) 20:49, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Carnby. Not all redirects need to have categories, but the correct categorization of redirects is explicitly wanted, either indirectly by using the large set of {{R ...}} templates predefined for this purpose or by directly specifying categories. There are lots of uses. It can be used, for example, to list articles in categories under different keywords, and it allows sub-topics of an article to be found in different (and possibly independent) sets of categories, which would not apply to the actual article, but only a carefully chosen set of redirects pointing to the article. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 22:22, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your explanation. I will be more cautious in the future.--Carnby (talk) 16:20, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Byte value 69h at offset 0 in boot sectors of FAT12 or FAT16 floppies[edit]

My original question raised on Asmpgmr's talk page was: "Request to help solve a little mystery: Byte value 69h at offset 0 in boot sectors of FAT12 or FAT16 floppies?

Perhaps you are like me and love to solve miracles when you stumble upon them. Out of historical interest it is sometimes enlightening to know why developers chose certain "magic" values in their software. There is one question I could not answer myself and it occured to me that you might know the answer (or know those to ask, who do know the answer), so I'll give it a try:

When DOS logs in a disk volume, it checks for the presence of certain byte patterns at offsets +0..+2 in the boot sector before assuming that a BPB is present (there are additional sanity checks, but I will leave them out here for clarity - you certainly know about them as much as I do): Since DOS 2.0 valid x86-bootable disks must start with either a short jump followed by a NOP (opstring EBh ??h 90h with DOS 1.1 and again since DOS 3.0) or a near jump (E9h ??h ??h on DOS 2.x disks). On hard disks, DR-DOS also accepts the swapped JMPS sequence starting with a NOP (90h EBh ??h), whereas MS-DOS/PC DOS do not. On removable disks, MS-DOS/PC DOS and DR-DOS also accept a sequence of 69h ??h ??h. This is also documented in at least one book (DOS Internals by Geoff Chappell), unfortunately without mentioning what this 69h byte or sequence is for. So here's my question:

What is it? Is it an opcode sequence as well (possibly even a jump?), but then, for which type of CPU? Since this does not appear to be a valid x86 opcode (in a startup sequence of a boot sector, that is, and possibly even a startup code, which must not run into the BPB following a few bytes later), I also checked other options and directions: Could this have been some undocumented opcode in early x86 CPUs or in CPU prototypes, is it an opcode supported by the NEC V20/V30 etc. series (perhaps in emulation mode)? Is this an artefact retrofitted for 86-DOS? Microsoft at one time had MSX-DOS which ran on 8080/Z80 CPUs, and there were dual-processor variants (for 8080/8086) of Digital Research's Concurrent DOS 8-16, which supported DOS file systems as well. Actually, there even was a Concurrent DOS 68K for Motorola 68000 CPUs. And the Atari ST series supported FAT12/FAT16 as well. IBM had a PC-like machine named RT, using a ROMP processor. And early versions of Microsoft's Windows NT supported other platforms as well... I might have overlooked something, but so far I could not find an opcode in any CPU class I know to support FAT file systems at about the DOS timeframe which would make much sense in this specific location. So, is it an opcode at all or a signature for something else? Or has bit 7 been stripped off (E9h -> 69h) for some odd reason? Perhaps you know the answer or can at least track this back in time and into either Microsoft or IBM in order to narrow down the possibly interpretations for this strange 69h magic? Thanks. ;-) --Matthiaspaul (talk) 12:35, 9 July 2012 (UTC)"

I haven't thought about this in ages. I recall that was a leftover in the code from DOS 1.x. The code checks for 69h, E9h and EBh. I guess the 69h is the same as E9h on the 8086/8088. Remember the entire 6xh opcode range isn't used on the 8086/8088, most of opcodes in that range were added with the 80186/80188, a couple more on the 80286 and the prefixes (64h - 67h) on the 80386. If you have access to a 8086 or 8088 system then it would be interesting to verify whether the 6xh opcodes function like the Exh opcodes. Asmpgmr (talk) 15:28, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your answer. So we both assume basically the same, undocumented or incomplete decoded 8088/8086 opcodes.
You wrote "leftover from DOS 1.x". But DOS 1.x did not use a BPB, and the DOS 1.0 and 1.1 boot sectors I saw so far didn't start with 69h. So, how should this be a leftover from or for DOS 1.x? And why should someone use undocumented opcodes when documented ones would do the same? Some strange kind of protection scheme, so that it only runs on certain machines? But why?
Unfortunately, all "normal" PCs still in reach have been retrofitted with NEC V20 CPUs (including what I think is a very early IBM PC with wire-wrapped mainboard). IIRC the Sirius 1 still has a 8088, but its boot floppies have become weak... And the 200LX has a 186-core already. Time for a little swap job, it seems. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 23:47, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
I recall that section of the code referred to E9h as a "DOS 2 jump" or something like that (it has been a while, I worked on DOS in the mid-90s) so the implication was that 69h was used in DOS 1.x or by some early DOS 1.x era software. It's entirely possible that code was added to DOS later to check for specific boot disks. The code was strange since 69h is IMUL on 80186+ which of course makes no sense as the first opcode of a boot sector so presumably it must do some sort of undocumented jump on the 8086/8088 or possibly an early NEC CPU. Asmpgmr (talk) 18:07, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


Hi. As I understand it, images at Wikimedia Commons are free to be used and re-used on Wikimedia wikis. I don't understand your change to Template:Like and I've reverted it accordingly. This has been discussed previously. I think it's reasonable to say that if the image continues to be kept at Wikimedia Commons through a number of deletion discussions, it's acceptable to use on a Wikimedia wiki such as the English Wikipedia. Please let me know if this is unreasonable. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:00, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Matthew Anthony Smith[edit]

See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Computing#User:Matthew Anthony Smith. —Ruud 21:11, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, Ruud. I hope he will learn to stick to the rules... --Matthiaspaul (talk) 15:54, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

About Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1[edit]

For the article, you said: "there are high-end 35mm film cameras, which are *much* smaller, for example the TC-1".

However, what you overlooked was that the article states: "world's smallest full-frame DIGITAL camera" and not "world's smallest full-frame FILM camera". So i removed only that erroneous section of your edit. I hope you will agree with it.MTorleeb TALK 00:50, 22 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MoTorleeb (talkcontribs)

Actually, it was me who added the "digital" to the sentence in question in order to fix the problem. ;-) Before my edit, it just read "it is the world's smallest full-frame camera", which it isn't. The section you removed was not "live" contents of the article, but just my hidden HTML comment explaining my edit for other editors to read. There was nothing erroneous with it, but anyway, it's fine with me to remove it. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 07:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Oh! I'm really sorry for what i previously wrote. I hope you didn't take offense. Thanks for clarifying the situation.MTorleeb TALK 02:58, 23 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MoTorleeb (talkcontribs)
Don't worry, I did not take offense at all. ;-) --Matthiaspaul (talk) 17:43, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Thankyou very much indeed.MTorleeb TALK 01:40, 29 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MoTorleeb (talkcontribs)

Jim Allchin[edit]

Hello, I restored the so-called "rant" that you had previously restored. I hope that's still good with you. (talk) 22:59, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Editing the References list that is "incomplete or promote wrong German"[edit]

The original references given for the Canon Pellix‎ article are those used and needed writing this article as required for any Wikipedia contribution. The actual Minolta book used was the Minolta's Kamera Technik …, published in 1990. Any misrepresentation of this information or reference to any other edition cannot be given as the original source for the article. I have not to my knowledge given incomplete information, nor do I promote wrong German. The book title is the responsibility of the authors, not mine. By changing the references, or part thereof, the list is no longer valid. The criteria given for editing the References are irrelevant and a violation of my obligation to provide verifiable information.

To remove a book listed as used for the article and add another is messing with my evidence for verifiability. If a relevant list of books can be provided, that is where such a book may be added..

With respect,--Jan von Erpecom 19:18, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Jan, I am fully aware of the fact that you used the second edition of the book for reference and there is nothing wrong with it.
For some odd reasons, the authors' names were abbreviated on the front cover of this edition, and their chosen title was "Minoltas Kamera Technik". Even though it is incorrect German, you were correct to represent the title as it was used by the authors (except for the extra apostrophe, which did not exist in the original title).
When I added the authors' full names, I did it with the third edition of the book in front of me (which reads "Minolta Kameratechnik"), and therefore I assumed, that not only the stray apostrophe, but also the space in "Kamera Technik" would have been the result of some unintended transformation error. That's why I fixed this as well while being there.
When you reverted my change, I looked this up in the older edition of the book and saw that it actually read "Kamera Technik" back then. So, had the authors not published a third edition, where they fixed their mistake (well, sort of, to be 100% correct German, it would have to read "Minolta-Kameratechnik"), we would have no choice but to use the wrong title as well. But since there is a newer edition, we can use this as well and avoid the problem altogether.
When I gave my edit summary as "No reason to give incomplete references or promote wrong German, therefore replaced by latest edition of book", I didn't meant 'you' personally, but 'us', the community of Wikipedia editors (including you and myself). This was not meant as criticism of your prior work at all but as a constructive comment as in "hey, we can avoid the faulty German title, so let's further improve on it". If somehow this came over as an offence, I apologize for that.
Regarding the other two issues you raised, it is perfectly okay to complete incomplete author info, as I did. It is also okay to replace existing references with better ones. We have no obligation to stick to the original sources if we find better ones. All that is needed is that the source supports what is written in the article. The only reason why I removed the 2nd edition is the fact that anything in there used for the article is covered in the 3rd edition as well, and there is no point to list two editions of the same book.
In closing I'd also like to point out why I framed the term Nifcalette with [sic]. Some years ago (but after the publication date of the 3rd edition), several "Minolta historians" found out that the camera was actually named Nifcarette rather than Nifcalette.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 22:05, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


Hello Mr.Matthias, on one hand I see you point that a list of famous biryani vendors doesn't belong in an encylopedia. By the same standard, something like a famous jeweller Tiffany_&_Co. or even apple computers don't belong in a encyclopedia. IMO, as long as the list is limited to established and famous places, it is acting as a knowledge reference (as opposed to a commercial hoarding). For example, this list would be of help to someone who is researching the authentic biryani styles of different regions. If you would like to re-evaluate the reversal, I would like to thank for your time. Either way, have a nice day! Curlybraces (talk) 18:09, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't want to disappoint you, but Wikipedia is neither a collection of recipies, nor a cooking or travel guide, and we certainly can't list every restaurant, eatery, or fast-food offering some form of Biryani - there are several of them in most any town on this planet. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 17:13, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

File Allocation Table[edit]

Thank you, I didn't notice that it was a reference-to-a-reference, my bad. -- (talk) 12:41, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Don't worry, it's very easy for this to happen - and also easy to fix. ;-) Greetings --Matthiaspaul (talk) 17:13, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Your edits and reverts[edit]

Hi. Also your edits are mostly ok,

  1. Again: Bionz article is poor, Write it better or leave it. Wikipedia is for the READERS !
  2. Link to Redirect is against Wikipedia rules

Stop reverting. Tagremover (talk) 12:17, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi there as well. Unfortunately, your assertions above are not correct and are not backed up by our guidelines, and therefore I ask you to stop reverting my edits (which are backed up by our guidelines):
The purpose of "See Also" sections (as per our Manual of Style guidelines WP:SEEALSO) is to link to other articles (regardless of their state), which might be in the scope of interest of a reader of the first article (but for some reason was not mentioned in the body of the article already). The articles Nikon Expeed, Canon DIGIC, and Sony Bionz are clearly orthogonally related and in the scope for the same type of reader and therefore should be crosslinked to each other.
While I do agree, that the Sony Bionz article is a mere stub at present, this does not change the above said a bit - and suppressing the link is a judgement, and therefore a violation of our WP:NPV core policy. We just don't filter articles because they are still in a very developing state - it must remain in the reader's domain to decide if reading an article is/was useful for them or not.
Regarding redirects, our guidelines WP:NOTBROKEN and WP:NOPIPE make it very clear, that it is perfectly okay to link to redirects (and often even more desired than to link to the target article, if the redirect links only to a related topic) and that we should avoid piped links if we can use redirects instead.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 13:21, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Sorry but: You are wrong:
  1. "The links in the "See also" section should be relevant, should reflect the links that would be present in a comprehensive article on the topic, and should be limited to a reasonable number. " : BIONZ is not relevant and not comprehensive.
  2. "Thus, many high-quality, comprehensive articles do not have a "See also" section." : Decrease the number!
  3. Linking to a redirect makes no sense if it NEVER will be an independent article: Canon DIGIC will always be a redirect as there is DIGIC. Although it is allowed, in that case it makes no sense.
  4. WP:NOPIPE: Good title; see where it redirects...
  5. "suppressing the link is a judgement, and therefore a violation of our WP:NPV core policy": Truly???? Links to everything?
  6. "We just don't filter articles because they are still in a very developing state": Joking? A BAD editor adds such links.
Result: Limiting the number of links NOT adding worthful information should be done and MUST be done in good articles. Tagremover (talk) 13:44, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
First of all, I'd like to ask you to tone down, please. There's not the slightest reason to be aggressive, and in particular we don't shout or make insults on my talk page. Second, please read the relevant guidelines I was referring to - they are, for the most part, very clear about this, and I'm afraid, they don't support your view. Regarding your items:
1. The topic BIONZ is absolutely relevant in the context of EXPEED or DIGIC - it is the direct analogon. We agree, that the article itself leaves a lot to be desired at present, but this is irrelevant in regard to the question, if or if not a connection exists between the topics (and therefore a link should be placed). Building an infrastructure is not necessarily related to improving an article itself, although often both can be done at the same time. There may be editors who can contribute to an article's content but don't see connections, and other editors, who don't know much about a specific topic but know how it relates to other topics. We should do whatever we can do first, there's no point to delay building the web until the BIONZ article has become a full blown article. We are not talking about red links or articles without possibilities, the article exists and has (quite many) possibilities.
2. Decreasing the number of See Also links is fine, but not mandantory, and it is hardly necessary with a total of two links at present. Even if much larger than the BIONZ article, the EXPEED and DIGIC articles are far from being comprehensive as well at present. If an article does not otherwise mention the related topics, which might be of interest to a reader, they should be mentioned in the See Also section. That's the very purpose of this section as per WP:SEEALSO:
"See also section: Contents: A bulleted list [...] of internal links to related Wikipedia articles. [...] Editors should provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent, when the meaning of the term may not be generally known, or when the term is ambiguous. [...] Whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense. The links in the "See also" section should be relevant, should reflect the links that would be present in a comprehensive article on the topic, and should be limited to a reasonable number. As a general rule the "See also" section should not repeat links which appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes. [...] The links in the "See also" section do not have to be directly related to the topic of the article, because one purpose of the "See also" links is to enable readers to explore topics that are only peripherally relevant. The "See also" section should not link to pages that do not exist (red links) nor to disambiguation pages (unless used for further disambiguation in a disambiguation page)."
(Perhaps, you are mixing this up with red links in See Also sections, or with External links, for which different rules apply?)
3. We could certainly discuss if we should better link to "Canon DIGIC", "Canon DIGIC" or just "DIGIC", but not if it "makes no sense" to link to redirects. As per the guidelines, links which might not be self-explanatory in the See Also section should be explained, therefore just linking to DIGIC is too short (a Nikon user may not know what it is), we must at least add "Canon DIGIC". Personally, I would prefer Canon DIGIC, because we could avoid extra text this way (see above, if possible, a simple bulleted list of links is preferrable) and this is also the title where the article would actually belong to, as we typically prefix company-specific stuff with the company name in order to avoid name conflicts in the future, and it is well possible, that we might be forced to move these articles to these new titles sooner or later (therefore, they do have "possibilities"). Redirects are also (per the guidelines) an instrument to "measure" what would be the preferred article title, and it would defeat the purpose, if we bypass existing redirects. So, either Canon DIGIC or "Canon DIGIC" can be used, but not piped variants like [[DIGIC|Canon DIGIC]] or [[Expeed|Nikon Expeed]], which are clearly against the guidelines. For the same reason, it is correct and preferable to link to µITRON rather than using a pipe as in [[ITRON project|µITRON]].
4. WP:NOPIPE properly redirects to the relevant section in that article, and in there to the following paragraph:
"It is generally not good practice to pipe links simply to avoid redirects. The number of links to a redirect page can be a useful gauge of when it would be helpful to spin off a subtopic of an article into its own page."
See above.
5. You wrote: ""suppressing the link is a judgement, and therefore a violation of our WP:NPV core policy": Truly???? Links to everything?"
Of course not to everything (that's not what I said), but we do link to related and relevant topics, also to maintain the neutral point of view. BIONZ is a related and relavant topic in the context of EXPEED and DIGIC, therefore suppressing the link where it should occur is a form of leaving our neutral point of view and add bias and personal judgements into an article.
6. You wrote: ""We just don't filter articles because they are still in a very developing state": Joking? A BAD editor adds such links."
Actually, we even link to non-existing articles at times (although not in See Also sections). If we won't do this, we could not build the web. If you want my personal opinion, the majority of articles in the English Wikipedia is in a very bad state, we just have to live with it for now and help and hope that they will be improved over time. Links help to make readers aware of articles and thereby also to improve them. If we wouldn't link to topics we don't like but which are relevant in a context, we would create isolated articles with both, alot of information lacking and with alot of unnecessary redundancy at the same time. Suppressing links is not how building a logical (infra)structure works. I could not find a guideline, which would disallow the links to the Sony Bionz article just because the article is still a stub. If you find one, please let me know.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 16:53, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

It is difficult to reply, as you insist to your viewpoint: Please read again. And: To make it clear again: Your edits are mostly ok, i just reverted two (UPDATE:ONE) who are no improvement to help you getting clear.
  • Manufacturer excluded from product article name: imho thats Wikipedia standard: I remember there was a discussion. I support changing: Canon EF lens mount > EF-mount or similar.
  • Changing links to redirects to cause traffic on an article name you prefer is wrong. Period.
  • Speedy deletion of redirects: You create a lot of redirects yourself. Please accept that others see need of redirects, too.
  • Shouting: Sometimes appropriate and rarely needed, here sadly often needed.
  • "We...": YOU are the most important man here, the Spokesman of Wikipedia ? Tagremover (talk) 01:20, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


Wikipedia Reviewer.svg

Hello, following a review of your contributions, I have enabled reviewer rights on your account. This gives you the ability to:

  • Accept changes on pages undergoing pending changes,
  • Have your changes automatically accepted on pending changes level 2 protected pages, and
  • Administrate article feedback.

Please remember that this user right:

  • Can be removed at any time for misuse, and
  • Does not grant you any special status above other editors.
You should probably also read WP:PROTECT, since this user privilege deals largely with page protection. As the requirements for this privilege are still in a state of flux, I would encourage you to keep up to date on the WP:REVIEWER page. Feel free to ask me if you have any questions! Happy editing! Reaper Eternal (talk) 22:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Sony BIONZ: Make it notable[edit]

Can we have a possible agreement to add it to Expeed and DIGIC if you or whoever doubles the text size (not by integrating kbytes of refs or links). It IS already linked by me at image processor. Tagremover (talk) 20:11, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Tagremover, I have no problems working with you for as long as you stick to the rules (that is our guidelines) and do not harm the project. However, this is not the venue for any "private arrangements" not supported by our policies and guidelines, like "if you add x to article y, I will not revert you". I told you many times: You MUST NOT revert other editors' contributions, anyway, unless they are working against our guidelines and you are unable to improve on their edits yourself. Unfortunately, it is you, who is boldly, knowingly and willfully acting against our established guidelines - you even seem to be proud of it, given that you prominentely stated "Ignore all rules" as your principle of action.
I already gave you the extended bonus of the newcomer and spent many hours trying to explain/tutor you some of the concepts of working together in a community project and how some things are supposed to work, but since you deleted these explanations and continue to ignore established guidelines up to the present, I am certainly not willing to spend yet more time to help you out. For as long as you do not correct your behaviour, it would be a waste of time, and you have long overstressed my time already - and given your many documented problem cases with other participants in this project, many other editors' time and energy as well. Doesn't it occur to you that if you persistently continue to run against a wall, the core of the problem might be related to you?
After your continued personal defamations and cheap atttempts to undermine my integrity and public image over the course of months, there is certainly no room for any more bonus towards you from my side. By now you owe me at least six solid apologies for your insults towards me. Before that happens and you correct your behaviour, I have no interest in discussing matters with you beyond consensus-building on article talk pages.
It's up to you now. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 00:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Next time just revert my edits[edit]

I know how to read edit summaries and have no desire to get into a revert war. Do not really enjoy the faux-friendliness and "suggestions" on my talk page. Bacchiad (talk) 04:37, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the suggestions were genuinely meant friendly. Nobody likes being reverted and I hate to revert other people sometimes, however, I also don't like seeing other people's contributions being destroyed by careless editing. Since you were acting at a fast pace and it was unclear if you would continue to do so for much longer, raising the issue on your talk page seemed (and still seems to me) like the best way to deal with it. Had you acted this way on a single article only, I would not have raised the issue at all, or only on that article's talk page. Frankly, you will have to deal with such comments if you make bold edits to articles except for in obvious cases, where one can safely assume that community consensus exists.
Anyway, after your long hiatus welcome back to Wikipedia! (I hope that wasn't too friendly ;-) ) --Matthiaspaul (talk) 06:02, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Camera template formatting[edit]

I see you are quite involved in the discussions at Template talk:Nikon DSLR cameras. Who could I ask to format Template:Kodak DSLR cameras and Template:Fujifilm DSLR cameras in tables?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I have reworked the Fujifilm DSLR template, but the exact announcement, shipment and end of production dates need to be researched in better details and the template tweaked accordingly.
The Kodak template is a bit more complicated as the timeline spans over a much longer period, two different camera mounts are involved, and some models were available in many minor model variants and I don't remember them all after all these years. I will have think about how to organize this template. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 00:36, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I do not understand this edit which points the template at redirects. Thus the template does not become bold on the pages that it is navigating to. That is extremely weird.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
That's a valid (and good!) argument and exception to the general rule not to bypass redirects, Tony. In this case, the advantage of the links being displayed in bold outweighs the statistics, maintenance and readability advantages of redirects. I have changed it accordingly.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 22:43, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

HX DOS Extender[edit]

As a rule, I unfortunately can't add a userfication. If it was deleted due to notability concerns I would have no problem moving it there, but because it's a copyright matter that has to stay deleted. I will, however, at least provide the infobox and links that were used:

HX DOS Extender
Developer(s) Japheth
Stable release 2.16 / November 16, 2009 (2009-11-16)
Preview release 2.17 / June 5, 2011; 4 years ago (2011-06-05)
Operating system DOS
Platform x86
Type DOS extender

External links:

Hopefully that helps, that's all I can provide. Wizardman 23:53, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay, Wizardman, thanks, that's a start. And you are sure that the claim for G12 was a valid one? Who added that tag? --Matthiaspaul (talk) 00:04, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
It was added by User:Insidious611, who hasn't edited since. I checked the text to the three external links above and, between the three, I found the whole article to be copied verbatim, same for a couple earlier revisions I checked. Wizardman 00:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Fortunately, this is not the user I had in mind, so this wasn't any attempt of gaming the system.
Checking the links you gave, I now remember the similaries as well. Given that this is an open source project one of the authors might have contributed the text to WP originally, I don't know. But then the edit history should have some remark by the contributing editor declaring this. If so, there might still be COI issues to be resolved, but at least no longer a copyvio problem. I guess I will contact them and try to find out. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 01:40, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the e-mail. I hope I will find the time to write an article about this (IMHO quite important) extender myself somewhen...
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 01:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar about Star Trek project![edit]

Tireless Contributor Barnstar Hires.gif The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
I have recently co-adopted Star Trek project. I painstakingly searched the history to find the person who added all those intense details. I have begun to do likewise on readability and citations. I look forward to working with you! Smuckola (talk) 02:47, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks alot. :-) --Matthiaspaul (talk) 02:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
Team Barnstar Hires.png The Teamwork Barnstar
We'll get this silly old article into citation rehab someday, but in the meantime, it's pure golden Internet techno-lore! Smuckola (Email) (Talk) 17:31, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
We should join or start a retro operating system group (task force, etc). It'd be more specific than a retro computing group, which would include tons of 8-bit and other extreme esoterica. But it'd be pretty darn broad. Thanks for messing with OS/2. I hope you also like what I've done with MkLinux, Workplace OS, and a ton of exotic Mac OS related things. Blue meanies, System 7, early Cocoa, etc. Ye olden lore! — Smuckola (Email) (Talk) 23:36, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Keep up the good work. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 01:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Ohlsdorf Jewish Cemetery[edit]

Hello, sorry for the late reply, i think you better do it since you are a native speaker of German language (if i am not wrong) and due to this reason, it's much easier for you to find information. The Wikipedia makes it hard to enter some info without citing any source, so how am i supposed to do that without knowing German? It is not my intention to cause copyright violations but then Wikipedia should stop asking for citing sources and references. Cheers Evangelidis (talk) 23:28, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I gave my answer on your talk page ([1]). Greetings. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 02:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Redirect creation[edit]

This is a rare instance when adding an own edit summary is a bad idea. Left it blank, please – everyone knows why you create them, but the target is not always obvious. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 14:46, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Since I always give edit summaries, I wasn't aware that there's also a default summary inserted when I don't specify one. Thanks for pointing me to it. I may now sometimes, but only in those rare cases where I see fit, skip adding my own summaries, as I still consider adding edit summaries as good policy to be followed.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 18:58, 22 April 2013 (UTC)


Please, do not use your own non-standard terminology in articles. You can ever consult {{Punctuation marks}} sidebar or corresponding articles. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 14:46, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Your assertion could be read as if I would use or enforce my own non-standard terminologies all over the place. I certainly don't do that at all. This single edit was down to a genuine mistake, and as much as I am grateful to have been corrected I wonder if just fixing it wouldn't have done the job already. In German language a colon is called Doppelpunkt, perhaps that's how I came to believe it would be called double-colon in English as well... ;-)
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 18:58, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Reflinks changes to Master boot record[edit]

Hello, Matthias

I hope I am not bothering you but I feel it is high time we convened about the edits in master boot record article because apparently we have trouble understanding the purpose of one another. (I certainly have; one of your edit summaries says you are not sure.)

In my 12:17, 19 April 2013 edit, I:

  • Used Dispenser/Reflinks to improve the citation style of eight of the references
  • Converted all instances of <tt> to <code> (because Reflinks warned me that <tt> is deprecated in HTML5)
  • Removed the misplaced TOC marker (that caused too much space between the TOC box and the first header)
  • Added {{Reflist}} in place of nested <reference> tags
  • Forgot to include all of these in the edit summary field

Reflinks itself removed underscore (_) from anchors.

Then I saw your 22:01, 19 April 2013 edit. There was things in it that I was not sure you intended to be there, only I could not tell which. (I was sure that TOC marker, for instance, is not intended.) But your edit summary told me that you prefer <tt> tag back. So, I made 09:30, 20 April 2013 and 09:36, 20 April 2013 edits: I reverted to Yobot version, where I thought to be the least disputed instance, and repeated my edit list except item #2.

I thought that should take care of our little dispute but wasn't I wrong? I am not sure what this part of edit summary means: "I am reformatting templates again so they don't have dangling SPACEs (which is technically bad)". What I see are line breaks before each parameter (which I neither support nor oppose) and |author= parameters being broken into |first= and |last= (which I appreciate). Is there anything else that I missed?

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 17:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Lisa.
Yes, the TOC token can go for sure. Well spotted! It was put in when the article was still not fully structured, so that the TOC showed up in the right place. Somehow I missed that in my edit.
Regarding <code> and <tt>, to some extent they are interchangeable, at least for as long as only one of them is used in a single article. However, in articles featuring both, I have almost consistently seen <tt> being used for numbers, and <code> for, well, pieces of code, commands etc. I don't know if <tt> is deprecated (I could look it up), but then we'd have to devise a macro template to emulate its teletype appearance (without changing the background color), as using <code> can really look distracting, when numbers have a different background color than normal text. It also looks very strange in tables, since the background shading does not match the default background shade of tables as well.
Regarding the underscores ('_'), fortunately, it works both ways. I tend to use spaces (' ') in normal (flow) text and underscores in identifiers like symbols. Since I consider invisible anchors and reference names as symbols, I use underscores for them. Experience has shown that allowing whitespaces in symbols makes parsing more complex and error prone, as whitespaces are also used as delimiter and additional rules are needed to distinguish between whitespaces, which are actually delimiting something, and whitespaces which do not. Wiki-syntax allows both ways in almost all cases (for as long as the parser isn't broken), so there is no clear right or wrong here, I just think, we should use the same style in a link as used in the corresponding link target. So, if we link to an anchor named #abc_123, it seems odd to use #abc 123 in a link just because "we can". Sooner or later doing so will cause trouble.
Regarding the references, I wasn't sure why you first reverted my edit just to reapply most of that stuff in the next edit again. ;-) After all, I had already taken care of the <tt> thing, so your revert seemed to have targeted the references mostly - only that I hadn't done much to the references other than reformatting them to one parameter per line (where possible), thereby fixing two dangling work= and pages= parameters, and streamlining the dates to use the international date format as defined in ISO 8601 (and previously used in the article). Like you, I don't have a personal preference to put it all into one line or use one line per parameter (perhaps a very slight preference to the former as it does not introduce line-feeds as another wild-card into the parameter parsing), however, I just try to use whatever is used on an existing page (if a preference can be determined - perhaps not in this particular article ;-) ). However, for the same reasons as stated above (potential parsing difficulties), I try to avoid spaces in front or after an argument as part of the argument. If I mean "test string", why should I write " test string", "test string ", or even " test string "? I would do so only if the space is a vital part of the argument itself. Therefore, knowing that the pipe character '|' is the delimiter here, I recommend
argument1=test string|argument2=test string|argument3=test string
instead of forms like
argument1= test string|argument2=test string |argument3=test string
Otherwise a (revision of the) parser may consider the space to be part of the argument, causing ambiguity. Of course, a parser can strip off whitespaces on both ends of an argument (it does so at present for named parameters, but not for unnamed parameters), but what if there were valid arguments which actually need to contain whitespaces in these places? This would require more work-arounds or exceptions or out-of-order executions to be implemented, making it more complex and therefore more error prone and difficult to maintain. (We already have an assortment of special cases for trailing dots, including a need for extra parameters to override these defaults. ;->) In the case of multi-line templates, we can (safely?) assume that a deliberate line-break is taken as delimiter as well, at least it is much less likely part of the argument than a pending space.
Again, for as long as the parser isn't broken, this does not create any immediate problems either way, but I have seen parsing reaching its limits in more complicated cases already.
Greetings. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 22:09, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
I asked around about the parser. Assuming we have |name=value:
  • Leading and trailing white space around pipe (|) is okay
  • Leading and trailing white space around parameter name is okay
  • Trailing white space after value is okay
  • Leading space before the value (after equal sign) is not always okay. It is parsed but may be ignored by the second-tier parser that interprets template code. So, it varies from template to template.
White space is defined as space character and line break. I did not research about tab character.
As for conversion between <tt>...</tt> and <code>...</code>, I am told to stop worrying and make no deliberate attempt to perform or dispute the conversion insofar it concerns a syntactic change only.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 09:08, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Binary number and Hexadecimal[edit]

Hi Matthiaspaul,

I wanted to let you know that I recently reversed two of your edits, one to binary number and the other to hexadecimal. In both cases, you added a remark about the words "Intel convention" and "Motorola convention". I don't know whether these usages are common (I'm a mathematician), but I couldn't find any reference using the quoted phrases. In the hexadecimal article, I thought the comment was redundant, since the paragraph already mentions in both cases where the convention is used; in the binary number article, an explanation like the one at hexadecimal would be valuable, especially with citations. Unfortunately (as I noted) I don't really know anything about this topic and so don't know what sort of reliable source would have this kind of information.

All the best, JBL (talk) 17:57, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Joel, thanks for making me aware of your reversion. Well, I am so accustomed to these terms, that it didn't came to me, that someone might question them. I hope you do not question the existance of these notations, just their names, or do you? I should be able to come up with many old books on programming (1980s era) citing these notations as being used (and apparently originally introduced) by Intel and Motorola, but it might be difficult finding a source formally defining them as "Motorola convention" or "Intel convention", that's just how I have seen these notations being referred to in verbal communication over the decades.
However, the main point I was trying to make by adding this information was that Intel uses a postfix notation, and Motorola used a prefix notation to describe numbers in other numeral systems systematically. I found this information helpful to understand why so many different conventions exists and also to make it easier to remember them. Therefore I don't think I was adding redundant info to the article, even though Intel and Motorola were already mentioned.
Greetings --Matthiaspaul (talk) 18:58, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Hi Matthiaspaul,
Well, as I say this is not something I know much about, but I have no reason to doubt that the notations are correct as presented; nor do I doubt your expertise on this question (and if you re-inserted your text I would bear no ill will nor revert again, although it does seem to me that this is covered in hexadecimal). It seems to me that if you have ready access to this sort of information it would be great (for the reasons you note) to add to the binary number article information analogous to that in hexadecimal, i.e., a brief list of contexts (Intel, Motorola, but also others if you know them) where the various listed notations are used.
All the best, JBL (talk) 23:20, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I now ran into two sources supporting my original contribution regarding the Intel and Motorola conventions. Therefore, I put it back in adding those references.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 18:11, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Contested assertions need a source[edit]

Hello, Matthias

I must hurry, so I apologize for the curt and crude message in advance. About this: [2]. Perhaps you already know that unreferenced contributions in Wikipedia may be contested or removed. I have already registered an objection to's crude edit summaries in his talk page but per Wikipedia policies, no one should reinstate his removals without providing a source that affirms the disputed statement.

In fact, I myself really want to see an evidence for the assertion that Windows 9x was DOS-based.

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 08:25, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Formerly, linguistics vs. technical accuracy; now source[edit]

Hello, Matthias

I hope I am not bothering you but I thought I give you a note about my BRDing your edit in Windows 95. You have written "On startup, the MS-DOS component in Windows 95". For the time being, I assume it is completely true from technical standpoint. However, from the linguistic standpoint, it is not. In other words, this is not how people speak (or write). "MS-DOS component in Windows 95" can refer to a lot of things, including COMMAND.COM and Command Prompt. So, your sentence is at best vague, if not strange. Just for testing it, I showed your sentence to my brother and indeed he thought he should press F8 after Windows 95 welcome screen appeared and that he has a huge window of opportunity for doing so before desktop appears. (What reinforced his interpretation was that the paragraph later talked about "exiting to DOS" which only happens when Windows 95 is running.) However, boot loader is often associated with the menu that allows them to choose an operating system. It proved more successful because it implied that F8 must be pressed before operating system start.

I remember Richard Stallman trying to convince people to start saying "photoshoping it" and instead say "GIMPing it" when they talk about doctoring an image. He was unsuccessful because he failed to comprehend that language is not a matter of ultimate technical accuracy: Words are coined in the language, but then their meaning evolves while their form eludes change. So, yes, maybe the Windows 95 boot loader code is MS-DOS code as you say (technical correct), but article writing is a matter of proper combination of accuracy, naturalness and emotional response. It is a matter of writing what people understand, not what one editor deems technically most correct.

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 10:00, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

P.S. I see that you counter-reverted while I was writing this. Hmmm... I guess the whole point of discussion is now lost. Codename Lisa (talk) 10:02, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Matt, you appear to be engaged in edit warring. Please stick to WP:BRD: When someone reverts you and leaves you a message, please discuss with him. When someone reverts and does not leave a message, you go ahead and do it. Whatever, you do, don't edit-war. And by the way, I think what you wrote is patent nonsense, feel free to add a source; I wanted to add "if you can" but you can't because it is not true.
And Codename Lisa, for God sake stop acting all chivalrous and negative. Report edit warriors to WP:ANI. Fleet Command (talk) 10:26, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello, guys. I don't think there is any instance of chivalry or negativity here or in the article and I think it is premature to call anyone "edit warrior" or even think of WP:ANI or WP:AN/EW. Yet, it is also premature to levy allegations like "downplay MS-DOS's role". First, we need to prove MS-DOS's role, then go down that path. An I make a point of not wanting to be either one of those who shout "it was MS-DOS–based" nor those that shout-back "that's nonsense". However, the point I'd like to defend that calling it "boot loader" does not conflict with calling it "MS-DOS code". Boot loaders are also code; thus, they can be MS-DOS code. (But we need a source for that.) I offer these two sources:
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 11:10, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello again, Matthias. Once again, I assumed good faith in people who do not supply a source and am disappointed: According to [3], [4] and [5], the option to exit to MS-DOS is only available in systems that multi-boot DOS and Windows 95. Even though I do not dismiss the possibility that these sources may be subject to different interpretations, I also do not dismiss the possibility that the unreferenced OR written in the article may have stemmed from a similar error.
To conclude, I quote from WP:V: "Any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 11:32, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
@Fleet: I'm really astonished where you see edit-warring between Lisa and me, I certainly don't. I'm completely relaxed and I think (hope so) Lisa is as well. Also, we are discussing when things need to be discussed, but I don't think every edit in the flow needs to be reflected on talk pages. That's what edit summaries are for.
Lisa, cleaning up the article in good faith, put in a technical incorrect statement, which I improved upon. Lisa then reverted for linguistical reasons, and I restored because as much as I love good prose, I feel that truth (technical accurateness) is more important, if both cannot be had at the same time. I explained in the summary why using the term boot loader in this context is not appropriate here but encouraged her to find better words. Actually, I see a form of constructive collaboration here, not edit-warring. In either case, the whole thing was triggered because some days ago an angry IP removed larger portions of the article which I restored because I found them vital to understand certain aspects of this operating system. I was not the author of these portions. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 13:22, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Hi Lisa, nothing is lost. I would have contacted you as well, but you were faster. The point, however, is, that it is important to be technically accurate here, because this is one of the keys to understand the hybrid architecture of this product named Windows 9x, which was a bundle of MS-DOS 7.xx + Windows 4.xx. As you might know, the operating system was originally advertised by Microsoft as being all new, rewritten and without any traces of MS-DOS, while in reality, the basic architecture has not changed from DOS + Windows 3.xx with the Windows portion running in 386 Enhanced mode. One of the differences is that the MS-DOS startup process is obfuscated as MS-DOS displays a graphical logo so that users cannot see the (still occuring) normal text output and that it starts up WIN.COM automatically (as you probably know, it is trivial to disable this, but mere users still got the impression that there was no DOS around any more). Another difference is that Windows 4 has, of course, better driver support so that it can handle more stuff in 32-bit protected mode, without a need to pass this "down" to MS-DOS and/or the BIOS. There are many other refinements and additions but nothing what would change the basic hybrid architecture - even not in Windows ME (MS-DOS 8.0 + Windows 4.9). I put "down" in quotes above, because what actually happens is more complicated and difficult to describe unless you are familiar with the 386 protected mode and virtual x86 mode. This is where "in", "on" and "under" have more than the obvious meanings (as per the MOS), and ultimatively this is were all this discussion, if Windows 9x is an operating system of its own or not, and if MS-DOS is a vital part of it, is still hanging around for compatibility, is only used at boot time, or does not exist at all, comes from. This once was a multi-million dollar question heavily discussed in the industry, therefore it is important to be technically accurate and we should try hard not to use vocabulary misused in that "war of OSes" for some purposes. After all, we want to tell the truth, not one party's "new-speak"? Microsoft, of course, tried to convince people, that DOS was no longer needed and only optionally used to run legacy DOS application and as a "boot loader", whereas independent industry experts have demonstrated in magazine articles, in books, and also successfully in court, that this was clearly not the case. If you are really interested in this subject, I recommend that you study Andrew Schulman's books Undocumented DOS (2nd edition) and Unauthorized Windows 95. These books do by far not cover all aspects involved, but they are technically accurate and a good read and very good introduction. After studying them you also know why Microsoft's response to one of these books (the reference given by that IP) is macroscopically correct as well (of course), but mostly (intentionally) beside the point. Even our recent IP stated that Andrew's "theory" (as the IP put it - actually it isn't a theory, but technical facts) were completely dismissed, while in reality they were not at all.
But back to your original question, perhaps, if we would detail the whole startup process from when the Volume Boot Record passes execution to the DOS BIOS (one of the components in IO.SYS) up to when the graphical shell gets loaded (WIN.INI SHELL=EXPLORER.EXE), we would also find a natural and linguistically more pleasing place to describe the boot menus alongside this process. However, the Windows 9x articles are not in my immediate scope of interest at present, therefore the time I'm willing to spend on them is certainly limited (at least at present). I just don't like seeing falsehoods being spread there, that's why I removed some incorrect statements, which raise wrong impressions and thereby are not helpful to understand how this system actually worked.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 12:42, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
I would like to second Matthias here. Technical accuracy is what is important here, both from an encyclopedic perspective, as well as to maintain a neutral point of view. While the whole "operating system vs. graphical shell" discussion was once highly contentious, there is absolutely no dispute on how W95 operates from a purely technical perspective (whether you ask Shulman or a Windows kernel developer.) The contentiousness of the issue only start to arrive once you try to distil all this technical complexity down to a binary statement "operating system" or "graphical shell", and by extension when you start to apply labels like "operating system" or "boot loader" the the MS-DOS component of W95. —Ruud 14:03, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello, Matthias. Hello, Ruud.
At this point I refrain to comment these statements. However, in the light of contradictory statements by our guest editor and the sources that I found, this issue is no longer a matter of technical vs. natural wording. (I have modified the heading to reflect this issue but this is your talk page, Matthias; you can revert it.) Per WP:V, "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation."
Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 16:36, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
You have failed to comprehend what these sources are saying. In fact, the sources you mentioned in the edit summary are in complete agreement with the statement you removed and claimed to have been original research. You must have somehow managed to misinterpret the statement "The option to boot to a Previous version of MS-DOS will be present only if MS-DOS was installed before installation of Windows 9x.", from one of the sources, as meaning the whole boot menu disappears, instead of merely the 7th option. —Ruud 17:11, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello. That is what I said: You present an interpretation of your own. And as I said, I neither oppose nor support. But the sentence that you just returned to the article: Does it have source? No, it does not. So, I am adding a {{citation needed}} to it to reflect this problem but won't mind if you removed. And please don't take me wrong: I do not mean to say what I do is absolutely correct; in fact, any feedback is welcome. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 18:52, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello, guys. Just grabbed a copy of Windows 95. I was both right and wrong. The part I was right was about interpreting [6]: Only option #7 disappeared, not the whole menu (as Ruud suggested). The part I was wrong, however, is that by now I assume it is possible to boot into DOS via option #5, "Command Prompt only". I could not do it in my system because the system stops responding, but I definitely saw an attempt to load COMMAND.COM. Still... there is a lot there... Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 07:30, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Reversion of my edits to SuperDrive article[edit]

Would you care to explain why you reverted my recent edit(s) to that article? Bumm13 (talk) 00:27, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

It might help for you to realize that Wikipedia:Piped link is not actual policy and that I do take issue with you reverting my good faith edits to SuperDrive, especially given your relative inexperience as a Wikipedia editor. Thanks Bumm13 (talk) 01:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Hi Bumm13. I guess, everything is relative. Your edits were definitely good faith (I had not the slightest doubt about that and never said to the contrary), but nevertheless they were incorrect and therefore had to be corrected by someone. I gave the pointer to WP:NOPIPE, because the section there naturally leads to WP:REDIR and WP:NOTBROKEN, which are established editing guidelines. These guidelines clearly indicate that we must not replace redirects by pipes (as you did here: [7]):
* [[FAT12]] -> [[File Allocation Table#FAT12|FAT12]]
* [[ProDOS]] -> [[Apple ProDOS|ProDOS]]
* [[CD]] -> [[Compact disc|CD]]
Actually, the exact opposite is what we should do:
* [[File Allocation Table#FAT12|FAT12]] -> [[FAT12]]
* [[Apple ProDOS|ProDOS]] -> [[ProDOS]]
* [[Compact disc|CD]] -> [[CD]]
I would therefore appreciate, if you would revert your reversion of my correction of your edit yourself rather than me (or someone else) having to do it.
I haven't checked your edit history, but if you did similar changes in the recent past, it might be a good idea to proactively reevaluate and where necessary fix them as well.
On a different note: Comments like this one ([8]), where you are trying to intimidate and push another editor are inappropriate for any admin, in particular over something as minuscle as this complete non-issue. I answer talks when I find time for it (and think it is necessary), not when someone attempts to push me (in this case even with factually wrong statements). However, assuming your good faith, I will assume you just had a bad day yesterday somehow and therefore I wish you good luck. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 11:23, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
The problem is that you've not given any actual reason as to why my edits were incorrect other than whatever pseudo-policy WP:THISPAGE and WP:THATPAGE pages happen to support your view on the matter. The specific "It is not necessary to pipe links simply to avoid redirects" statement was added by User:Rockero on June 23, 2006 (per [this diff]). There's nothing authoritative about his statement and it flies in the face of clean, direct linking to article pages. Put differently, redirects serves the needs of editors, not the other way around. It's not your fault that this issue hasn't been raised on the Wikipedia talk:Piped link talk page until now, but to treat my edits as if they are no different than vandalism and to act by reverting them is, perhaps, showing poor discretion over what you yourself said was "something as minuscle as this complete non-issue".
As for the pointer to WP:NOPIPE leading "naturally" to WP:REDIR and WP:NOTBROKEN, it appears that you yourself added the link to WP:NOTBROKEN (per this [diff]). I'd be careful about correlating a word such as "naturally" to "because I think it natural and thus added something I agree with to a page on Wikipedia".
On my comment that you linked to earlier, I apologize for sounding rude or pushy, but I did redact the comment (by removing it), so I can only hope you accept my apology. I'm not here to push other editors around or any such thing; I want to see Wikipedia continue to improve as a repository for knowledge. Regards, Bumm13 (talk) 03:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Bumm13: "The problem is that you've not given any actual reason as to why my edits were incorrect other than whatever pseudo-policy WP:THISPAGE and WP:THATPAGE pages happen to support your view on the matter."
Matthiaspaul: Bumm, actually, I think this edit summary ([9]) was quite clear about what's wrong with the edit. Perhaps, I could have said WP:NOTBROKEN instead of WP:NOPIPE, but the outcome would have been the same. As I said, I wanted to point you to both at the same time, therefore I used WP:NOPIPE. I mean, we are not here to play games like "who knows the better WP:SOMETHING pointer", but we are here to do "the right thing", or in other words, even if I had not given any edit summary at all or were an unexperienced editor or even an IP, your edits in question would still not have been correct, and according to your edit on the Wikipedia talk:Piped link page ([10]) you knew about the guideline(s) WP:NOTBROKEN and WP:REDIR (and therefore also, that your recent edits were violating them) before you complained about WP:NOPIPE not being a guideline on my talk page ([11]). Looks a bit odd to me.
Don't worry, I don't want to make a "case" out of that (because I'm here to improve WP and not at all interested in time-wasting drama), but given your reply above, I just want to point out that this particular "issue" exists not because I (or someone else) made a mistake, but because you were apparently somehow not aware of WP:NOTBROKEN and WP:NOPIPE before your edits. No problem, that's why we can diff and revert. I would not go as far as calling it a "fault" not to know about some random guideline (we certainly all have our white spots), but please don't try to find excuses elsewhere.
Bumm13: "The specific "It is not necessary to pipe links simply to avoid redirects" statement was added by User:Rockero on June 23, 2006 (per [this diff]). There's nothing authoritative about his statement and it flies in the face of clean, direct linking to article pages."
Matthiaspaul: It's "authoritive" in that apparently the vast majority of editors agree with it since 2006. In fact, the current text exists since a consentual talk page discussion on Wikipedia talk:Piped link#Using piping to make links longer than necessary in 2007/2008. And, there's nothing more "clean" in pipes than in redirects. They both serve a number of good purposes, and can also be made to work for things for which they do not fit well. Our efforts should always go towards using the best available tool for a particular purpose in a given scenario.
I can understand that it might be embarrasing and - at first sight - even may sound like a bad idea to use redirects when you prefer and are accostumed to use pipes and somehow missed the corresponding guidelines over all those years, but please let the idea that redirects are in reality far superior to pipes in many cases sink in for a few days and try to compare their pros and cons (and their technical capabilities) without bias. I'm quite confident you will learn to appreciate them as well as the rest of the community. (I know, redirects in the current implementation are not perfect (and perhaps one of their peculiaries is the reason why you do not seem to like them), but this is just down to implementation issues, which will be overcome with time, whereas pipes, if used in the wrong spots, are really becoming a serious problem, because they are conceptually the wrong tool and directly detrimal to the growth and maintainability of Wikipedia and the future semantic web ("Web 3.0").)
Bumm13: "It's not your fault that this issue hasn't been raised on the Wikipedia talk:Piped link talk page until now,"
Matthiaspaul: Bumm13, it's noone's fault, there is no issue with the contents on Wikipedia talk:Piped link in its current form at all, at least not in my opinion (and apparently not in the judgement of the majority of other editors as well, otherwise they would have raised some serious concerns over all these years).
Bumm13: "but to treat my edits as if they are no different than vandalism and to act by reverting them is, perhaps, showing poor discretion over what you yourself said was "something as minuscle as this complete non-issue"."
Matthiaspaul: I am sadened to see that you are hurt somehow, but you really do not need to be hurt just because someone reverted you (for a reason). I don't agree with you, however, when you are trying to make a case where there really is none. The only way to deal with these particular edits of yours ([12]) was to revert them ([13]). This was not optional as they were clearly violating our guidelines. It is also not possible to "half-revert" a badly formatted link. I could have "silently" reverted to the old version and provided an edit summary like "fixed links per guidelines" not indicating that I actually reverted you, but I would consider deliberately providing misleading edit summaries as gaming the system. Since your changes spread over 5 edits, I did not want to revert five similar individual edits of yours, therefore I reverted them all in one go and, per the guidelines, was thereby obligated to make a dummy edit to retrofit the corresponding edit summary. This is exactly what I did, and I improved on your hatnote change in the same edit. My edit summary reads: "Edit summary for previous revert: We deliberately try to avoid pipes where possible as per WP:NOPIPE. Reapplied Bumm13's improvement of the disambiguation hatnote, but now using corresponding template". There is not the slightest hint of assuming bad faith or even vandalism in it. Please do not try to read that into it, it's not in there.
Bumm13: "As for the pointer to WP:NOPIPE leading "naturally" to WP:REDIR and WP:NOTBROKEN, it appears that you yourself added the link to WP:NOTBROKEN (per this [diff])."
Matthiaspaul: Sure.
Bumm13: "I'd be careful about correlating a word such as "naturally" to "because I think it natural and thus added something I agree with to a page on Wikipedia"."
Matthiaspaul: I added that link there to make it easier for editors to find related information about our established editing guidelines. WP:NOPIPE and WP:NOTBROKEN closely relate to each other in their practical consequences and reasoning. It is quite normal to link ("naturally") related contents. I really can't see what you think is wrong here.
Regarding the question why redirects are superior to pipes in most cases, and also regarding the few exceptions where they are not, please also see the talk pages of the corresponding guidelines. Alot of things have been discussed and considered in the development of these guidelines, which reflect community consensus established over many years. I could only repeat the pros and cons here. If you do not agree with them, please raise your concerns on the corresponding talk pages. If you like, we can continue to discuss the pros and cons there, but as far as I am concerned, I would love to have some technical issues resolved, but from the perspective of a systems architect I'm happy with the "strategic" direction laid out in these guidelines towards logical and attributated linking (redirects) instead of low-level physical linking (pipes). It's vital to keep a project this size and complexity managable now and long term. After all, Wikipedia in 2013 is no longer what it was ten years ago.
One important question remains, will you fix your recent edits against WP:NOTBROKEN, or will you leave that to me or other editors?
Greetings. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 12:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
There have been edits here (Wikipedia talk:Redirect#Section_.22Don.27t_fix_links_to_redirects_that_aren.27t_broken.22_suggested_change) as recently as nine days ago that indicate lack of consensus regarding the WP:NOTBROKEN issue yet you have reverted my edits as if there is absolute consensus on the matter (there isn't and there may not ever be).
As my edits didn't break anything, they will remain as-is. If you personally choose to revert them (even though they are in no way detrimental to Wikipedia and are not vandalism), I will consider you involved in a protracted edit dispute and will have no choice but to proceed with the dispute resolution process. Bumm13 (talk) 21:49, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
For the records, this "discussion" continued at Wikipedia talk:Redirect#Restoring_links_to_redirects
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 01:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Intel 8086 code example[edit]

Thanks for the code corrections for the Intel 8086. And yes, the code is meant to illustrate the various kinds of opcodes available to the CPU, and is not meant to be the most optimal assembler code. I could have written more efficient code, but the result would not be as easily understood by novices and people (like me) who just want to see a small, fairly easy to understand sample of what the code looks like for the CPU. I've added short code examples to other articles (8008, 6800, 6502, 8080, Z80), which could use another pair of eyes for correctness. My goal is to eventually have a short code example in all of the major historical CPU articles (e.g., IBM 360, IBM 370, PDP-8, PDP-10, PDP-11, 4004, 6809, Z8000, 80386, etc.). — Loadmaster (talk) 04:37, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

You are welcome. Do you plan to use the same example for all CPUs? This would aid cross-comparisons of coding styles for different target CPUs, but it would not show specific capabilities of some CPUs, if we don't exploit REP MOVSB etc. in the example for the 8086. It could make people think of the 8086 as being much less capable than it actually is.
Hm, perhaps there would be a more suitable example problem to show the diversity of a CPU's instruction set. Perhaps a simple array or list sort problem? Or some number conversion problem? Or a stream data extraction problem? Of course, it had to be short if it should be included in an article.
Another question: Shouldn't either the code or the comments account for the modification of the CX, SI, DI and Flags registers?
Greetings --Matthiaspaul (talk) 10:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm using essentially the same memcpy example for the 8-bit CPUs (8008, 6502, 6800, 8080, Z80). I've got a slightly more complicated strtolower example for 16-bit CPUs (which so far is only in the 68000 article; I'd like to add something like it for the IBM S/360, PDP-10, PDP-11, Z8000, 80386, etc.). Other example subroutines that might be instructive are:
  • Addition of two 8-digit packed decimal values;
  • Summing all the elements of an n-element integer (or floating-point) array;
  • 16-bit multiplication (for 8-bit CPUs), and 32-bit or 64-bit multiplication (for 16-bit and 32-bit CPUs);
  • Deleting a node from a doubly-linked list;
...and so forth. Ideally, it would be most instructive to show a half-dozen or so opcodes within a subroutine that's no longer than, say, 20 lines. I don't think readers are going to be interested in code that's longer than half a page or so. I'd like to be able to show the actual binary codes as well (most of the examples I've written I had to assemble by hand, which is tedious and error-prone). The examples are not meant to be actual production-worthy code.
I don't want to show too many complex instructions unless they really are exemplary/typical for a given CPU. For example, I'm on the fence about using the REP opcodes for the 8086; on the one hand, they are more efficient instructions and thus would probably be used in practical applications, but on the other hand they are harder to understand for casual programmers/readers. Also note that the PDP-11 architecture and PDP-8 articles give much more detailed break-downs of the CPU instruction formats; such a thing would be nice for the other processors. The PDP-8 article also has several very small coding examples. — Loadmaster (talk) 23:56, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

List of Yale University People[edit]

Hi, Matthiaspaul, would you happen to know to which section Asoka Bandarage could be added? Lotje (talk) 12:01, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Lotje. I would put her under List of Yale University People#Professors and scholars or List of Yale University People#Religion. Greetings. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 12:11, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Keyboard layouts[edit]

Hello, Can you tell me what's your source about the italian keyboard layout? I've been living in Italy most of my life and I've never seen anything QZERTY (I've also used old mechanical typewriters, just for fun, and they were QWERTY). The only place where I saw different layouts was the laboratory at the math and computer science department where I was attending, which used US keyboards (that are QWERTY too by the way) and were later replaced with normal Italian QWERTY keyboards. So could you show me your source? And is it recent? Look at this italian made typewriter.

LtWorf (talk) 13:57, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi, LtWorf. The point I was trying to make was that Italy uses more than one keyboard layout, as was correctly illustrated in the map. That's why I reverted you when you stated that Italians only use one layout.
It's a while ago when I was a developer of keyboard drivers and therefore did extensive research on the subject of keyboard layouts worldwide. I still have piles of documents archived but they are not handy right now (and realistically I don't have the time to look them up soon - sorry). However, one source for different keyboard layouts are the keyboard layout registries at Microsoft and IBM. They have assigned IDs to most layouts they support or supported in their software. Microsoft's knowledge base identifies ID 141 (IIRC this was a QZERTY variant, but I would have to look it up to be sure) and ID 142 (definitely a QWERTY variant), an older newsgroup post of mine ([14]) also mentions ID 146, which I had found to be supported in some version of DOS, I think (but I would have to look it up to be sure, it might have been OS/2 as well). IBM's keyboard layout registry mentions ID 142 (as stated, a QWERTY variant), ID 293 (another QWERTY variant), and ID 150G (a QWERTZ variant used in some areas of Northern Italy).
Hope it helps. Greetings --Matthiaspaul (talk) 09:28, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


Hello, Matthiaspaul. When you moved Convertible to a new title and then changed the old title into a disambiguation page, you may not have been aware of WP:FIXDABLINKS, which says:

A code of honor for creating disambiguation pages is to fix all resulting mis-directed links.
Before moving an article to a qualified name (in order to create a disambiguation page at the base name, to move an existing disambiguation page to that name, or to redirect that name to a disambiguation page), click on What links here to find all of the incoming links. Repair all of those incoming links to use the new article name.

It would be a great help if you would check the other Wikipedia articles that contain links to "Convertible" and fix them to take readers to the correct article. Thanks. R'n'B (call me Russ) 09:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Sure, Russ, that's what I almost always do. However, in this particular case I wasn't prepared to manually edit hundreds of articles (in particular not in the time I had left yesterday), and I first wanted to flesh out the new disambiguation page a bit more, anyway (which has happened meanwhile). Also, going through the long list, I found several cases of incoming redirects where I could not make a proper decision where they should point to (I'm not into cars and carriages at all). I have meanwhile changed some of these redirects to bypass the disambiguation page, but left others pointing to it.
If we compile a list of incoming links which should bypass the disambiguation page and go directly to Convertible (car) (in order to cover the largest bulk of links affected), don't you think it would be an ideal task for a bot to carry out the actual edits?
Greetings. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 13:23, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Well, I started to fix the links manually, but after changing a few hundred of them another editor changed Convertible to be the primary topic and the other meanings disambiguated at Convertible (disambiguation). While I don't think that the car meaning is the primary meaning of the term, this is an acceptable solution as well (as it avoids to have more than one alternative meaning mentioned in the main article). Therefore I have stopped converting the remaining links.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 01:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

System Manager edit to System Administrator[edit]


It's not that I disagree with redirecting System Manager to System Administrator, it's that I disagree that there should be a link to "Datapac Multiuser DOS and System Manager" at the top of the page. That's an empty section of an almost-entirely inconsequential piece of software.

If we're going to have that, why not this:

or this:

or this:

Does "System Manager" need a disambiguation page? -- User:StandaloneSA, 2013-07-03T16:26:42‎

Well, you are right about Datapac System Manager, but not about Multiuser DOS, although this is long ago.
Nevertheless, the whole idea about hatnotes is to disambiguate secondary meanings from what appears to be a primary topic for as long as no disambiguation page exists. Your examples above clearly show that there are more than these two meanings and, yes, they should be disambiguated. Therefore I have created a disambiguation page and removed the hatnote.
Greetings --Matthiaspaul (talk) 15:46, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Great, I think this works really well. Thank you very much. I hope I didn't come off too brash. I'm new to editing wikipedia, so I'm uncertain of the correct protocols.
StandaloneSA (talk) 15:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your feedback. I'm glad you like it. :-) --Matthiaspaul (talk) 01:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Support on 64-bit (again)[edit]

Hello, Paul

I hope I am not bothering you but I wanted to give you a notice about one of your edits in Virtual DOS machine. I partially reverted your edit (not all of it) and started a discussion at Talk:Virtual DOS machine § Support on 64-bit (again) where you can discuss or defend your edit and achieve a consensus or compromise, if you wish. I must say in advance that your cooperative spirit is much appreciated.

However, the main reason that I called you is because I used Wikipedia:VisualEditor. You see, you have a habit of manicuring the references which has no impact on the final rendering. I certainly do not spend my time doing such a thing but your time is yours. Now, VisualEditor does not respect that. If anyone change a single typo in the article or add a space character, VisualEditor will flatten your edits. This is notice meant to make your ready not to be caught by surprise if you see an edit diff is dramatic.

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 16:21, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

S. Nick Barua sockpuppets[edit]

I've opened an SPI at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mike willaims and listed the various sockpuppets I've spotted. But you also have been tracking and reverting his spam and may wish to add additional detail. Msnicki (talk) 20:23, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for opening this case. I have added another IP and a Commons account to the list, as well as a link to a recent discussion thread. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 21:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
I saw that. Thank you, that was very helpful. I was disappointed that wasn't blocked as well – July 7 was only 2 days ago and doesn't seem that stale to me – but something tells me we'll have another reason to back to well to request more blocks soon enough. Msnicki (talk) 21:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
Yes, same gut feeling here as well, unfortunately... --Matthiaspaul (talk) 21:23, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Join WikiProject Microsoft![edit]

Why don't you join WikiProject Microsoft?
Wikiproject Microsoft Banner.png

It seems that you have been editing Microsoft related articles, so why don't you consider joining WikiProject Microsoft, not to be confused with WikiProject Microsoft Windows. WikiProject Microsoft is a group of editors who are willing to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Microsoft, its technologies, web properties & its people. This WikiProject is brand new and is welcoming editors to help out. Add your name to the list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Microsoft/Participants and/or add the userbox {{Template:User WikiProject Microsoft}}. Thanks! jcc (tea and biscuits) 10:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

FAT technical specs[edit]

Look I understand you spent a good deal of time adding all those boot sector codes to the FAT article. To the point... it is overly technical. You can create the technical specs redirect if you want to claim credit for a new wiki.

Senior editor made comment atop wiki for a reason.

Fix the fucking article. It reads like shit with the superfluous boot sector graphs and overly detailed information. It's like fitting Stevie Wonder's biography into an article. What's the point?

If you really want to flesh out technical data, there exist wikia platforms for IT buffs-----------


Gary Kildall[edit]

Hi, I noticed you undid the changes/improvements I made to the article, which costed me a considerable effort. I think I must have Wikified over 10.000 articles (in multiple projects) but I never experienced such a waist of space in the reference section, as you created around the "excerpt of the BDOS.PLM file header". If this illustration is that important, can you move it into the article, and explain it some more?

Also it seems you have hidden three quotes in the reference section (see here), which are rather difficult to read. There is a sort of standard to present those kind of quotes; mainly in Wikiquote (When available in Wikipedia, they are most of the time moved to Wikiquote).

-- Mdd (talk) 18:09, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Mdd. Well, they were never meant as quotes in their own right by me, just as normal references including a citation from the original source using the quote= parameter. While most references come without embedded quotations, I felt that it would make sense to include them here for historical accurateness given that sources about the early history of CP/M are very rare, and while there are some inaccuracies in Killian's account of what happened, combined these sources can help to give definite answers to several questions about the early CP/M history. I agree with you in regard to the white space in the BDOS.PLM file header, but I didn't want to tamper with the formatting of this historic document at all. This is an excerpt of the original source code of one of the earliest versions of CP/M, and it is historically important because it is the earliest surviving document using the BIOS and BDOS designations, terms which are used up to the present. I agree with you that the white space in the references section looks a bit odd, but then I thought, it'll be okay, given that it is properly formatted according to the cite template rules and that it isn't located in the article body (where it would disturb the readers' flow) but only in the references section, which people typically look up only if they are interested in further details.
I only reverted the edit where you changed these references to quotes because your reformatting was apparently the reason why the IP editor, editing the article after you, recognized them as dubious and unsourced statements rather than as the accurately sourced citations from historic sources that they are. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 20:58, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Maththiaspaul. The reason why I removed it in the first place was, because I wanted to add a {{ref|2}} tag to recreate the reference section into 2 columns. With that original text it got all messy, and I was unable to give it a clean up. I only guess next time an experienced editor, unfamiliar with the matter, will encounter the same problems. Or others keep wondering about that illustration in the reference section. Please reconsider moving it into the article, or into a similar article. Or if not that important, move it to the talk-page.
As to those quotes (or just text from references), I also added them to the Wikiquote lemma of Gary Kildall. Feel free to alter those quotes, or add other quotes if your interested. -- Mdd (talk) 21:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Miscapitalization vs. misspelling[edit]

Why did you re-add the "from misspelling" category to EXIF? It is technically an incorrect capitalization but correct spelling of the abbreviation (that is, it contains the same letters in the same order as "Exif," but just the capitalization differs). Or is there a convention within Wikipedia that a miscapitalized abbreviation is considered a misspelling? Or did I miss something else entirely?

(In case the lack of the word "incorrect" in the template confused you: {{r from incorrect capitalization}} redirects to {{r from other capitalisation}}, so I decided to use the latter directly.) --SoledadKabocha (talk) 00:14, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi SoledadKabocha. It seems we both had (and have) the same intentions in regard to EXIF, but chose different paths trying to fulfill the goal.
Adding R from misspelling was my attempt to make clear, that EXIF is not valid because the abbreviation should be written as Exif (except for when the surrounding text is written in all uppercase as well). Some people are not aware of the fact, that the abbreviation of Exchangeable image file format is Exif and they incorrectly use EXIF when they add links to Exchangeable image file format in other articles. I felt that R from other capitalization wasn't "strong" enough, given that is does not flag the form as incorrect. Smart editors and bots can use the presence of the R from misspelling template (or in the corresponding category) to fix such errors semi-automatically, but they cannot do this for R from other capitalization. According to the documentation, R from misspelling can be used for misspellings and typographical errors, and while an incorrect capitalization is not normally a typographical error, I felt it would fit in here good enough.
If EXIF wouldn't have been used in quite a few talk pages already, I think the best solution would be to simply delete this particular redirect. This would keep people from using the wrong capitalization in articles (at least when they link to it), while the case-insensitive search box would still accept any capitalization of the remaining redirect Exif.
The next best solution, IMHO, would be to switch from R from other capitalization to R from incorrect capitalization (I wasn't aware of this particular one, thanks!) and possibly improve the template to make it work similar to R from misspelling.
Greetings, --Matthiaspaul (talk) 08:32, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
You probably noticed that I already switched it to R from incorrect capitalization ... but what do you mean by "possibly improve the template to make it work similar to R from misspelling"? Both already apply the "unprintworthy" category. --SoledadKabocha (talk) 15:38, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I saw that and I like it.
What I meant was to modify R from incorrect capitalization so that it adds the corresponding redirects to Category:Redirects from misspellings as well (as R from misspelling does). While in the strict sense capitalization errors do not belong into there, I think it would be okay if we can thereby avoid creating Category:Redirects from incorrect capitalizations and given that this category is for maintenance only.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 22:13, 15 August 2013 (UTC)


Hello, Matthias

I have already told you once but it seems I need to remind you again: Tools, gadgets and VisualEditor like WikiEd, Twinkle, ProveIt!, etc. may automatically do edits like flattening citations (removing line breaks between cite templates) and removing underscore. What you reverted here, is one of those edits.

I do not mind if you revert such minor edits again and again and again; you are the owner of your time and I do not judge you if you feel such edits are not wasting it. In fact, I respect it. But then, you should expect comments like "Please spell anchors as they are defined instead of unnecessarily changing underscores to spaces or vice versa" to fall on deaf ears. Editors do not always have control over the tools' optimizations and even if they had, it is at their discretion not to disturb them. After all, it is not wrong.

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 22:36, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the hint, Lisa, but unfortunately I don't agree with you here. While wikisyntax allows underscores and spaces to be interchanged (to circumvent a few cases, where one of these characters must be substituted by the other), this does not mean that we should change underscores to spaces or vice versa, nor are any such changes endorsed, in fact, the opposite is true. We should use whatever is used in the definition. In most cases, this will be spaces, but sometimes there are reasons, why underscores were used, and if so, this should be reflected in the links as well (unless you run into one of the few scenarios where substituting is necessary).
As I explained to you a while ago, I normally use space in "readable" names and underscores in symbolic names like those in question here in order to make them easier distinguishable from normal text. I use symbolic names, when they are highly specific and I deliberately do not want that name to ever clash with a normal readable name which may be created by another editor in the future, and I deliberately don't use spaces in such symbolic names. I have solid reasons for this. It keeps such symbols from wrapping around in editors, it makes it less likely that additional whitespace will be accidently inserted into the symbol's name by later source reformatting happening on a page (which would ultimately break the link), and foremost, consistency improves readability and it makes it much easier to search for patterns and maintain these symbols over many articles.
While you are absolutely free to ignore my suggestions and naming conventions and choose your own style, you should still not change underscores to spaces or vice versa unless there would be a reason why spaces were preferable here and you do it in all places involved in order to maintain consistency (however, in that case, I would use hyphens instead of underscores). While this fortunately does not break anything the hard way and links will continue to work for the while being, introducing such inconsistencies will still break the maintainability of articles in a soft way, and you thereby are making it considerably more difficult for other editors to contribute. It's unnecessary sand in the gear. It is therefore undesired, if not unconstructive, although certainly not intended as such. I take it, that you were not aware of the fact that you did these changes. Well, if your tools perform changes beyond (your) control, ditch those tools! Simple as that. If they change underscores to spaces in links despite them being defined using underscores in the target and without you telling them to do so, they are buggy and should be fixed. File a bug report. In the end, everyone is responsible for his/her edits based on the resulting wiki source code and it shouldn't matter what tools are used (I use my set of tools as well, but I don't use them as excuse).
BTW. While there are many editors editing links so that they use the same style of spacing/underscoring as used in the target, over all those years, you are the only editor I remember changing links to look different than on the target page in regard to space/underscores.
Greetings --Matthiaspaul (talk) 05:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
(Comment from uninvolved editor) Hey. I was curious, so, I checked. This edit seems to have caused the change. The gadget causing the change is called AutoEd and I see it has made a host of other good changes too.
Now, you say "ditch those tools!" That's way of out of line. If other people don't want to throw their lives over doing petty fixes that can be automated, you can't blame them and I very well understand if they don't want to re-waste the gained time by adhering to arbitrary conventions that you want to enforce.
Last but not least, if you haven't seen, that does not mean it didn't exist. It just means you didn't see. A lot of tools like Reflinks and WikEd fix underscore in links. Fleet Command (talk) 07:24, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi Fleet. Thanks for commenting, but, well, unfortunately I see my position significantly misinterpreted in your comment.
It's good that tools exist to automate fixes where things need to be fixed. In this particular case, however, there was nothing to fix, and even if it was, certainly the tool (or the editor behind it) should not have introduced inconsistencies, which did not exist before (even when reducing the scope to this single article only) - this simply was no improvement at all. While some of Lisa's changes were fine, some other edits are questionable as well, but it would be opening a can of worms and I don't want to be nitpicking - so I just changed back what didn't need to be changed at all in the first place and what is essential to avoid actually wasting my time when continuing to work on the article as one of its major content contributors.
If some of these tools cause unintended changes as "collateral damage", as apparently happened in this case (given that there were no links with underscores in the article which needed fixing, and assuming that Lisa did not intend to change underscores in anchor names to spaces), it is not our all editing behaviour, that needs to be adjusted, but those tools that need to be fixed to do exactly what they should do - and nothing else. After all, it is just code. What programs do is always under our control rather than the other way around. Sometimes, programs are imperfect, usually because we, as their creators, missed something in the first place or we were too lazy to implement it the right way. In that case, we have the choice, either do not use those tools until they are fixed (and if we cannot fix them ourselves, at least initiate what is necessary so they get fixed by those who can fix them), or master them to still do what we want them to do despite their shortcomings. Simply ignoring their mistakes or even using them as excuse, however, is hardly acceptable. It would make us slaves of our own creations. And "saving time" doing unnecessary changes at the expense of wasting other editors' time is not desireable as well, however, we all know it sometimes happens even with best intentions, and I can therefore tolerate it for as long as it happens sporadically and unintentionally. As in this case I normally don't make an issue out of it and just correct it.
It's the same as with bots, either they do what they should do, or they need to be stopped and corrected. The responsibility for an edit is always with the person using a tool or running a bot, because he/she always has the choice to not use the tool if it isn't or cannot be mastered. We never give up our responsibilty to tools.
You wrote "If other people don't want to throw their lives over doing petty fixes that can be automated, you can't blame them"
Just to straighten the facts, it is not me who has a problem here, but Lisa. Obviously, she didn't like my edit, otherwise she wouldn't have complained about it on my talk-page. For me, this would have been a non-issue, because there never was a problem with automated tools changing underscores to spaces where this was not intended. If this would have been a common problem, I would have never come to adopt this convention years ago, but so far it wasn't at all. So, either we have had a recent guideline change enforcing spaces in anchor links even where underscores are used in the target, or there still is no issue. As I said, I can happily adjust to use hyphens or other characters, if underscores would cause any problems, but so far there never was a problem.
You wrote: "and I very well understand if they don't want to re-waste the gained time by adhering to arbitrary conventions that you want to enforce."
Hm, this is a rather stretched reflection of my position. I don't care, if other editors choose "my" convention or not, and I certainly don't enforce any arbitrary conventions on them, but when contributing the contents, anchor names had to be chosen somehow, and it just happens that I chose symbolic names without spaces (for reasons, see above). If someone has a better concept, great! They can use what they want, and I'm open to suggestions to adopt my style as well. All I ask is to not introduce inconsistencies, in particular not when only doing quick "drive-by" editing.
It is just the other way around, would other editors suddenly start to introduce the same inconsistencies and "enforce" spaces in anchors all over the place, where I previously used underscores, it would really be a tremendeous waste of my time, as it would make it much more difficult to maintain the articles using my tools. My solution would be to avoid spaces and underscores in symbolic anchors at all (actually, I may do this anyway). However, so far, there simply was no reason to do so, as everyone else managed not to introduce such inconsistencies - and the other editors use all sorts of tools as well.
Greetings --Matthiaspaul (talk) 15:49, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi. Wow, that's one long reply; I feel lucky it is not for me. Poor Fleet Command, who must read it. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 09:34, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi. No, I am not going to ditch the gadget. Convention and tools should serve the purpose; what you are asking is the other way around. Even if what you ask was a rule, I might have ignored it. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 13:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Barnstar of Reversion Hires.png The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
Thank you for removing the recent vandalism to the Washington State Pages! You are a real pro. :) -Birdymckee Birdymckee (talk) 08:02, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 14[edit]

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Speedy deletion contested: Serial ata[edit]

Hello Matthiaspaul, and thanks for patrolling new pages! I am just letting you know that I contested the speedy deletion of Serial ata, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: This would not be an uncontroversial deletion. Redirects from alternate capitalizations are common. Moreover, this page is visited quite frequently (, meaning people are in fact using this redirect to navigate. You may wish to review the Criteria for Speedy Deletion before tagging further pages. Thank you.

Signature got eaten due to a BracketBot error. Sorry for that. The above message was originally by Cymru.lass. Huon (talk) 00:57, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Caldera (company) interwiki[edit]

Hi, I removed ikw because Caldera (Unternehmen) on dewiki is only the redirect page - that's why it cannot exist in Wikidata. Regs, Doctore (talk) 00:09, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I assumed that already. ;-)
However, redirects are valid inter-wiki-link targets (and this example illustrates nicely why this is necessary sometimes). The syntax for local inter-wiki links continues to be supported after the wikidata launch with one of the reasons stated that it can help to solve cases, which are difficult to set up using wikidata. Therefore I don't think we should remove fully functional links to the correct pages just because they aren't using wikidata. It was difficult enough to sort out the total mess in the English WP mixing up the different Caldera companies. I may do this as well in the German WP somewhen in the future (if noone else does), however, so far I only set up the inter-wiki-links, so that at least the infra-stucture is there and the correct topics are interconnected for someone else to build on.
BTW. I have managed to set up links to redirects using wikidata in the past as well, but it is somewhat tricky and IMO just not worth the extra work and hassle for as long as everything is working nicely without it.
Greetings --Matthiaspaul (talk) 00:38, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
Having had a look at the page in the Polish WP, it unfortunately mixes up the various Caldera companies as well. However, my Polish is way too bad to correct the facts there. So, if you could do something about it (using the English page as reference, which properly distinguishes between the companies now), that would be highly appreciated... ;-) --Matthiaspaul (talk) 00:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
It's true, we've got a mess on plwiki with that. I've seen your message in discussion, I'll try to fix that article. Doctore (talk) 13:30, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

AARD code[edit]

Thank you for readding content I removed on AARD code after adding an appropriate citation. Much appreciated! --Yamla (talk) 13:49, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

R from Unicode[edit]

It’s been a week. I plan to revert your reversions of my edits to redirects like NEC μPD96050. Okay? Gorobay (talk) 22:38, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Replied on the user's page. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 21:01, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Arabic MS-DOS listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Arabic MS-DOS. Since you had some involvement with the Arabic MS-DOS redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion (if you have not already done so). � (talk) 17:44, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Issue solved by adding a small paragraph on Arabic, Hebrew and other special versions of DOS. Actually, these versions are different enough (from Western issues of DOS) to deserve a more detailed discussion, but I don't have the time for it right now. Let's hope others will use it as start. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 21:01, 9 February 2014 (UTC)


You have restored non-breaking spaces in File Allocation Table claiming it solves an Orphan (typesetting) problem. Orphans are associated with page breaks. There are no page breaks online. What you're apparently trying to address is single-word lines at the end of paragraphs. I am not aware of any aesthetic problem with these. If there is a problem, it will exist for all articles and should be addressed as a technical issue with the MediaWiki system perhaps at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical). ~KvnG 14:32, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually, there are three types of orphans, those associated with page breaks, those associated with column breaks, and those with line breaks at the end of paragraph (the exact definitions seem to differ slightly between countries and they sometimes have rather different names in other languages, but the basic idea is mostly the same). It is best practise in booksetting to avoid all three types (but particularly the first two), either by adapting the spacing or by rewording the corresponding section, measures which don't work for web-pages for obvious reasons. One old work-around to avoid the third type on web-pages is to insert &nbsp; between the last two words of a paragraph. Meanwhile, it is also possible to address the issue with CSS, but CSS support differs between browsers and older browsers don't support them at all, therefore the &nbsp; method is more universal - even archaic browsers support it. In either case, it is only a minor annoyance. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 21:01, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
That's interesting and I appreciate the explanation but I don't think it is desirable or feasible to insert non-breaking spaces manually at the end of every paragraph. If you believe it is a problem you should advocate for a general solution to it. ~KvnG 16:23, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
While I do think a general solution would be appreciated and I take care for it in my own publications, it is not a major issue for me if others don't observe traditional typographical rules. It would be too time-consuming for me trying to start something about it here. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 15:36, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

.app listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect .app. Since you had some involvement with the .app redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Rezonansowy (talkcontribs) 10:58, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Alpha 4/5/7 moves[edit]

I have done my best to revert these edits of yours to produce massive disambiguation pages regarding alternate names for a bunch of cameras which are not the name that they are best known by in the English language. There is no point to make disambiguation pages just to fill them to the brim with invalid redirects.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:09, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

For alternate names like what you are proposing, you should use {{hatnote}} instead of making a billion redirects all to the same page.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:29, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I created disambiguation pages for Alpha 5 and Alpha 7 since there are more than three topics under these names without a primary topic, and disambiguation pages are our established way to cope with this scenario per our editing guideline WP:DISAMB.
If you are referring to the Minolta Maxxum cameras, I'm afraid, except for in the USA, they are by far more commonly known under their Dynax and Alpha names (actually, the whole system is named A-mount system all over the world since 1985 - guess, what the A stands for?). Wikipedia is an international project, US names are not any more relevant than those used in other parts of this world. An owner of f.e. a Minolta Alpha 7 may not be aware of the fact that the camera was available under the Minolta Maxxum 7 name in the USA. A reader can reasonably expect that he will be directed to the relevant contents if s/he types in Alpha 7. Guiding a reader to the relevant article is the very purpose of redirects and disambiguation pages.
Moreover, the Sony Alpha 7 is sold under this very name in the USA (as well as anywhere else).
So, we have three or more topics under the same name with no primary topic. Per WP:DISAMB the proper way to deal with the situation is to create a disambiguation page under this very name per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:2DABS.
Hatnotes are typically used only for as long as there are only two topics under the same name that need to be distinguished, and only, if one of them is a primary topic. In this case, however, even if we are conservatively counting, we have three entries under Alpha 5 (Alpha 5 (Minolta), Alpha 5 Digital and Alpha 5 (Power Rangers) - and with more to come in the near future) and seven or more entries under Alpha 7 (Alpha 7 (Minolta), Alpha 7 Limited, Alpha 7 Digital, Sony Alpha 7, Sony Alpha 7R, Sony Alpha 7S, Alpha 7 (Power Rangers)).
A clear case for a disambiguation page, and fully backed up by our guidelines. You should not have reverted me, but raised your concerns on the article talk page. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 13:40, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Your creation of a bunch of redirects from alternate names of these cameras does not excuse your behavior. These are hatnote material if best. Not disambiguation page material. The fictional character is still the primary topic in this case because the articles on the cameras are not "Alpha 5 (Minolta)" or "Alpha 5 Digital". Those are just two redirects to other camera models that are sometimes called those names, but are not on the English Wikipedia and not in places that speak English to where such a confusion may arise. Also, the "Alpha 7" camera redirects just point to the same 3 pages. Just because you can create these redirects does not mean that they are useful. This just all looks like it's some sort of unnecessary obsession with these cameras and their alternate names. I can see that several redirects you have made have been sent to RFD for being improper.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:39, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Discussion continued and finished in this thread:
Talk:Alpha 5 (Power Rangers)#Requested move
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 15:36, 21 April 2014 (UTC)



I'll admit to two things, my friend: I am old, and I am not technically the most clever person. What this means is that I remember the remote past, when the search box wasn't so handy with varied capitalizations. It also means that I tend to be conservative on deleting redirects, because they are "cheap", and -- as a general rule -- their existence does more good than harm for reader navigation (provided they are accurate and unbroken, of course.) I go by the book: I look to see if the reason for deletion comports with guidelines. I also consider whether the reason for deletion is actually discouraged by guidelines. In this case, while your request (as you've now explained it) sounds fine, I don't see your rationale supported within the guideline. I do see that your rationale might be contradicted by points 1, 2 and 5 of "reasons not to delete redirects."

Let me be clear: I really have no passionate opinion about this. You may well be very right. However, given my reading of the guidelines, I still don't think these are speedy deletion cases. I'm afraid you'll have to list them at RfD, where multiple expert eyes can examine the problem. I really am sorry; I always feel silly discussing such small matters as if they were grave. Still, according to the letter of the guideline, these redirects strike me as more helpful than harmful. Best wishes, Xoloz (talk) 16:23, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Origin of this thread: User talk:Xoloz#Redirects as search terms
I see and appreciate your point, Xoloz. I'm rather conservative in deleting stuff myself unless it is obvious junk. However, I also try to avoid bureaucracy where it is possible and (to my best judgement) doesn't harm (because it consumes time which could be better spent on improving articles otherwise). Not seeing points 1 and 5 applying, and point 2 only partially by the word, but not by the spirit, I have nominated the redirects for discussion now. I don't care much about the outcome, as I have now done my best at cleaning up (and already spent too much time on it). Greetings --Matthiaspaul (talk) 15:36, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Regarding your move of the contents of Alpha Five to Alpha 5[edit]

I want to inform you that I have reverted your cut-and-paste move of the contents of Alpha Five to Alpha 5. The reason I have done this is because cut-and-paste moves should not be done: it breaks the edit history attribution on the pages since the edit history would be on the wrong page. Please see WP:CUTPASTE for more details. If you want to move the page to the new title, the best venue to request the move is WP:RMTR (unless someone opposes.) Steel1943 (talk) 23:20, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi and thanks for the pointer! I am aware of WP:CUTPASTE, but somehow I thought that none of these pages ever had any significant contents and edit history, so that nothing would have gone lost by the swap and I wanted to avoid the bureaucratic overhead for all of us (already way too much time spent on this trivial issue, if you ask me). But having rechecked this now, Alpha 7 actually has a relevant edit history, so it really makes sense to do it the proper way. Greetings. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 23:51, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Actually, Alpha 7 has a relevant edit history, but Alpha 5 hasn't. ;-)
In either case, I've gone the route suggested by you and the page was moved without hassle. Regarding preserving edit histories, in low-importance cases such as this one, I find the resulting construction with an Alpha 5/version 2 sub-page considerably more quirky than what would have resulted by just swapping contents and providing proper edit summaries indicating this (after all, per our guidelines edit summaries are enough to indicate the origin also in actual article merge cases, for as long as the original page isn't deleted, so it should be enough for a disambiguation page with only trivial edit history as well).
I just hope that everyone is happy with the new organization now and that even Ryulong will learn to appreciate it. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 15:36, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Redirects for Alpha 5 listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirects you created for Alpha 5. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Steel1943 (talk) 15:36, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

RfD discussion closed as Keep. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 22:26, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Edits to File Control Block[edit]

When DOS 2 was being developed, attempting to "support multiple processes or users, use other filesystems than FAT or to share files over networks" was all three or more years down the road. Those features weren't included in DOS 2, and I'm not aware that there was ever any intention to include them. The obsoletion of FCBs was not an immediate strict direct necessary consequence of adding subdirectories, but the two did go together, since using FCBs only allows you to access files in the current default directory on each drive. FCBs could not have been a convenient and useful part of a general set of system calls for dealing with files in a system of hierarchically-nested directories without somewhat radical reformulation... AnonMoos (talk) 20:34, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

It's nice that you found a source, but it's still rather strange that you provide an explanation in terms of things that were still far off into the distance when DOS 2.0 was being coded, while completely ignoring something that was actually being implemented when DOS 2.0 was being coded (i.e. hierarchical filesystem). AnonMoos (talk) 23:58, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

You've got mail![edit]

Hello, Matthiaspaul. Please check your email – you've got mail!
Message added 17:56, 14 May 2014 (UTC). It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{YGM}} template.

Nikkimaria (talk) 17:56, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Re: Sortable tables and sort keys[edit]

Ping. User_talk:C._A._Russell#Sortable_tables_and_sort_keys -- C. A. Russell (talk) 22:10, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

RfC archived[edit]

I'm surprised, given your general position that article development should proceed slowly with ample discussion, that you've archived the open RfC on File Allocation Table organization without explanation. Is this is because you WP:OWN the article or is this a mistake. ~KvnG 14:22, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Console redirection[edit]

In Comparison of command shells, General characteristics, you should explain what console redirection is. The concept of console is vague under Unix, and a shell generally doesn't run in a console, so that this column makes no sense unless it means something else. BTW, it is said "Yes" for bash, but the bash man page doesn't even contain the word "console". Vincent Lefèvre (talk) 23:19, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Secure Digital bis[edit]

I post-edited you for grammar. Afterward, Anon post-edited you to call for a citation. He changed your text and possibly your meaning, but I think his point is valid that your summary of the current state of SDXC-capable devices could use a citation. Spike-from-NH (talk) 20:28, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Clarification on Scroll wheel article[edit]

Hi, do you mind clarifying why you made this edit? The scroll-wheel on a mouse isn't related to the keyboard's scroll-lock key AFAIK, what warrants having the link there? DraugTheWhopper (talk) 19:11, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Depending on the operating system and configuration and the applications used, there are (or at least can be) similarities between toggling Scrollock on or toggling the third or wheel mouse button (which is part of the Scroll wheel). The following excerpts from the article should give a clue, but if you cannot replicate the behaviour in your environment, the analogy may still not be immediately obvious.
"In the original design, Scroll Lock was intended to modify the behavior of the arrow keys. When the Scroll Lock mode was on, the arrow keys would scroll the contents of a text window instead of moving the cursor. In this usage, Scroll Lock is a toggling lock key like Num Lock or Caps Lock, which have a state that persists after the key is released. [...]
Most GUI environments neglect Scroll Lock, which means scrolling must be accomplished with a mouse, using means such as scrollbars or scroll wheels. Often, the middle or the wheel mouse button works as a toggle determining if mouse movements will move the mouse cursor or scroll the contents in scroll window."
Hope it helps. Greetings. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 20:12, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Your edit summary at Command Prompt[edit]

Please do not make unjustified assertions concerning other Wikipedia users, as you did in your edit summary at Command Prompt. I, for one, support User:Codename Lisa's change (although I did revert it once due to a very inappropriate edit summary left by that user). Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 21:10, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I am seeing two separate discussions, one between Codename Lisa and Jenks24 and another between Dogmaticeclectic and EdJohnston. Basically, Codename Lisa and Dogmaticeclectic have completed all three stages of WP:BRD and their revert survived. The only thing that remains is your four reverts, one with your account and three with your IP addresses. (Oh, yes, we know they are yours.) You are engaged in edit warring and you didn't communicate even once with Codename Lisa or Dogmaticeclectic; instead you used personal attacks against one of them.
This feud between you and CL has gone long enough. It is time you two make amends before it is late.
Fleet Command (talk) 04:57, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

COPY (command) listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect COPY (command). Since you had some involvement with the COPY (command) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 03:37, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Just so you know, I don't wish to delete it, but I think it could be targeted to a more relevant article. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 03:44, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Replacement parameter[edit]

Hello, Matthiaspaul. I wanted to let you know that I’m proposing an article that you started, Replacement parameter, for deletion because I don't think it meets our criteria for inclusion. If you don't want the article deleted:

  1. edit the page
  2. remove the text that looks like this: {{proposed deletion/dated...}}
  3. save the page

Also, be sure to explain why you think the article should be kept in your edit summary or on the article's talk page. If you don't do so, it may be deleted later anyway.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Steve Lux, Jr. (talk) 19:57, 7 August 2014 (UTC)



Are you trying to make me kill myself by boring me out of reading? (; There is no reason to repeat the same sentence three times and it is absolutely vital not write technical details that the editor does not need to know for editing.

Now, there are parts of your edit that directly contradicts common practice. I and many others (see above, your own talk page) have told you several times that Wikipedia does not care what others do; hence, adopting what others do needs community-wide consensus. Please take them to talk page. On a sidenote, it appears that a slight problem with FreeDOS DNS address has shaken you so badly that you are dramatically changing a MoS! You know that the reply to that is "pull yourself together, man!", don't you?

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 16:31, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Replacement parameter listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Replacement parameter. Since you had some involvement with the Replacement parameter redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Keφr 16:25, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Personal attacks by User:Matthiaspaul. Thank you. Codename Lisa (talk) 21:41, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh, look, you are already ANI'd! So, you can partially disregard my message below. Fleet Command (talk) 09:51, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


I saw your revert in MOS:CLI and here is your edit summary:

Reverting bold change for which there is no consensus

There are two lies in this: Claiming that it is bold, and claiming that there is no consensus for it. I am through with your lies. So, get this: If you continue this deception, I will take the case to WP:AN3, I will produce both the discussion in Talk:Cmd.exe in which this claim is established AND the sentence in MOS:CLI that says the exact same thing.

Oh, and thanks for giving me credit for my "violently attempting to force lowercase into articles" [sic]. Only, I don't understand: Why the hell Codename Lisa is sharing the credit. May I remain you that if was I who started the move discussion? It was I who gathered consensus and it will be I who will see to that every single computing article with uppercase title is moved or deleted? Codename Lisa is a lovely creature but she wouldn't have even started the move request, just as she did in CHKDSK. Editors like her are too entangled with their own beliefs about playing nice. So all in all, you are biting the wrong newcomer. Fleet Command (talk) 09:49, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

DOS 30 listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect DOS 30. Since you had some involvement with the DOS 30 redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. - TheChampionMan1234 10:22, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of DOS 0 for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article DOS 0 is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DOS 0 until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Keφr 10:44, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

SmartShot Alpha vs. ILCE[edit]

I think precedence on the English Wikipedia goes to the English press release. Regards, Samsara (FA  FP) 17:46, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Dos Separator[edit]

Could you please find a proper way to include that information. It's useful. I didn't add it for my health.-G (talk) 03:09, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Gregory. I'm sorry to hear about your health and hope you will be well up again soon. Regarding your request, are you talking about your 2014-05-08T19:33:11‎ edit to List of DOS commands which I reverted or some new information to be added to the article? The old edits to this article are currently blocked since User:Asmpgmr added alot of copyrighted contents to it a while back, so I cannot look up what you wrote in May. But from the edit history I take it that you added some Windows related information although this article is only about DOS commands and the information therefore did not belong there (and more importantly, it would have confused people in the context of that article since they would assume it would be related to DOS, not Windows). Perhaps, the information would be useful in another article or a similar article should be created for Windows? However, not knowing what you actually wrote I unfortunately can't make a proper suggestion right now. If you don't want to edit the article yourself, perhaps at least bring up the topic on the article's talk page? Please let me know, when I can help. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 16:42, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Hi Matthias. I'm glad to see that the nominator withdrew their AFD for the list of DOS commands. Sometime I may redo it. I'm thinking it might make a nice sortable table with columns for command name, version number where first appeared, internal or external, who wrote it (Microsoft, IBM or some third party), class of command, and short description of function, in my own words. It was a mistake allowing intricate details including the syntax and all the switches. I still haven't gotten to a more thorough review of the FAT articles, but last I looked at them I thought they were much improved from what I recall they were earlier. I was wondering if you had knowledge of any connection between Asmpgmr and this guy? Someone added all the PC DOS 7.1 builds to my timeline, using this guy's site as the reference. I'm not really comfortable with keeping those on the list, but not comfortable with deleting them either, if you know what I mean. Apparently they are all internal never-released versions, so only the developer would have any direct knowledge of them. Wbm1058 (talk) 15:52, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
On second thought, the list doesn't look that bad, now that it's been cleaned up. Wbm1058 (talk) 16:06, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi Wbm, I'm so busy with other projects right now I didn't even recognize it was nominated for deletion. Good that the nomination was withdrawn, as this is a central list article and navigation piece for many existing (and even more future) DOS-related articles.
Actually, I don't think it was a mistake to allow details to be included, just listing the syntax does not make it a how-to guide by itself, as some seem to believe. In fact, I believe listing the syntax somewhere is absolutely necessary to achieve Wikipedia's long-term goals, but I saw the listing of the syntax in /this/ particular list article only as a stop-gap measure until separate articles for each and any DOS command will have been created in the long run. Those articles should discuss and compare all DOS versions and flavours in context, not just a single one. There's enough notable, encyclopedic (and non-textbook-style) information available to justify separate articles, I guess, I could write a few pages for each of them if I only had the time for it (unfortunately, I haven't).
However, I do think and fully agree with you, that it was a mistake to let copyrighted material creep into the article (the syntax was directly copied from the PC DOS 7 help screens by User:Asmpgmr). Back then I even asked him to stop it several times, but to no avail (and admins didn't act on it back then), so I eventually gave up on this and hoped someone would rewrite the stuff sooner or later. Yes, I verified the real-life identity of this editor back then (the web page didn't exist back then), and while I think he was a problematic editor, at least the information he provided was technically correct except for a few genuine mistakes (which were corrected by me).
Regarding OEM PC DOS 7.1 releases, from the back of my head I am aware of (and almost certainly have archived) four /released/ builds of this particular version (there may be more). I might even have written about them in one of my articles, so while not necessarily a RS in itself, it would at least be a second (and outside) source to back up some of those build numbers. However, given my other obligations it may take some time to look it up. Greetings,
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 17:28, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for editing Seattle Computer Products page[edit]

I'm doing research on my grandfather's company, SCP. His name is Rodney Brock and he's not very talkative, but he's still goin. Since you edited it, I thought you might know something about it. Please get in contact with me: [or] or call me 253-391-1866. My AIM address is Tiberiusfury. I need help - I'm in poverty and I'm going to be homeless soon. Looking for friendship and charity. Thanks Matthiaspaul. Greets. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonha.silverworm (talkcontribs) 21:20, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Relax duplicate linking rule (again!)[edit]

Hi Matthias,

You might be interested to see that I'm reopening the issue of duplicate links at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Linking#Relax_duplicate_linking_rule. --Slashme (talk) 21:43, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined - Genie (feral child[edit]

I have declined your speedy deletion. WP:CSD#R3 applies only to recently-created redirects, and this one has been there since 2013. There is a good reason for that: when a redirect has been present for some time, there may be external links to it which would be broken by deletion. The traffic statistics show that this one gets something like 20 hits a day. If you think it should be deleted, take it to WP:Redirects for discussion, but first read WP:RFD#When should we delete a redirect? JohnCD (talk) 13:44, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Article Wikification[edit]

On 6 April, 2015 you indicated that the article on IBM Distributed Data Management Architecture needs "serious wikification." What does this mean? I would appreciate specific critiques and suggestions. Richard A. Demers (talk) 20:10, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi Richard, don't worry, it's a nice article already. What I meant by "wikification" was mainly that the article should become more tightly interconnected with other articles. It has very few links to other articles and there are not many links from other articles pointing to it at present. The article could provide more references, and they should support individual statements, not whole chapters. References shouldn't be put in section headers, and terms without incoming redirects shouldn't be set in boldface (use italics instead), but these are just cosmetics proposed by our style-guide (the MOS).
There were also a few areas where I had hoped to find more details / background information, f.e. in regard to record-based files and file types like sequential, direct, keyed and random files. My interest stems from FlexOS (on which 4680 OS and 4690 OS are based) supporting similar concepts IIRC. Greetings --Matthiaspaul (talk) 00:33, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello Matthias, I am very pleased that you find my article interesting and worth inclusion in Wikipedia.

  • I did include links to other articles on subjects I mentioned in the article, but I did not attempt to add DDM links to those articles. Is this what you're looking for?
  • While writing the article, I made heavy use of articles I wrote and published in the IBM Systems Journal as well as to the published documents about level 3 of DDM architecture. Can you suggest a better way to reference these articles (as I tried to do in section headings). It would frankly be difficult and repetitive to tie individual statements in my Wikipedia article to specific statements in the System Journal articles. Please note that my Wikipedia article is all new text; I did not plagiarize myself.
  • It would be possible to provide considerable additional information about the various kinds of record-oriented files. The DDM Programmers Guide contains good descriptions of each type, including graphics. I would not want to rewrite and redraw this information, but what could I legally copy and modify from the Programmers Guide? Would I need specific permission from IBM, the publisher? If so, it's not at all clear who I would ask.
  • If I were to provide additional information about record-oriented files, I don't think it would be appropriate to extend the DDM article unless it was put in a separate section. Alternately, it could be added to the article on record-oriented filesystems, but I am somewhat hesitant to add that large a change to someone else's text. Please advise.
  • I personally have no knowledge of FlexOS, though I was aware that the IBM 4680 was implementing DDM architecture.

Thank you for the many cosmetic changes you made. Richard A. Demers (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 02:37, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome, Richard. Let me try to address some of your questions:
  • ad 1) Yes, wherever it makes sense.
  • ad 2) Actually, the repetitive style would be the preferred one. Still, you need to define the references only once in an article. If you apply names to them, you can repeatedly invoke them by their name, without adding redundancy.
  • ad 3) Directly copying from sources would be a violation of copyrights, unless you could get permission from the copyright owners (difficult, and probably not worth to try in this case). You'd have to rephrase it in your words.
  • ad 4) Yes, the record-oriented filesystem article might be a good place to add this kind of info. You do not need to worry about changing other articles. Wikipedia articles aren't "owned" by anyone. If you can add useful contents or make corrections, you can edit any article without asking for permission. It's a collaborative effort. If you think (or know) the edit would be controversial, it is best practise to bring up the topic on the article's talk page in order to discuss the matter with other editors first. But you seem to have the right attitude towards collaborative editing already.
  • ad 5) FlexOS supports record-based file access in the FAT file system as well, but distributed files in FAT are unique to 4680 OS and 4690 OS. I am looking for better implementation details how exactly they implement this feature in the FAT filesystem.
Greetings, --Matthiaspaul (talk) 22:34, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello Matthias, After an extended vacation, I got back to the article on Distributed Data Management Architecture. The major changes I made to the article are:

  • I deemphasized IBM in the title because DDM has much broader scope than just IBM products. IBM is still given credit in the article for having sponsored the development of DDM.
  • I removed technical details from the History section and wrote new subsections in the Inside DD section to better explain record-oriented files, stream, oriented files, etc.
  • I found and added links to many more of the concepts and products mentioned in the article.
  • I went to many of the pages linked by the article and added back-references to DDM and how it was used in that context.

I hope this satisfies your request for "serious wikification." I am, of course, open to further suggestions. --(unsigned) 2015-06-14T17:05:18 Rademers

TWL HighBeam check-in[edit]

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Warnings 1, 2, 3, and 4[edit]

  1. WP:COI: Smuggling in a reference to a good self-published source is from my POV okay per WP:IAR if nothing else covers it correctly, but 36 references to NWDOSTIP.TXT are gross, and references to forum entries with author=self also won't do.
  2. WP:OR: FAT+ is a draft implemented by one co-author. If it is mentioned once per WP:IAR over notability this is more than good enough, it does not need four redirects FAT+, FAT16+, FAT32+, FATPLUS, with a similar zoo on dewiki, where you introduced FATplus as "misspelling". FAT32B is your own original research, the German forum entry does not cut it as a reference, I removed that. Of course FAT32B is a WP:NEO unless somebody who is not you mentions it somewhere outside of Wikipedia in the sense of WP:42.
  3. WP:NEO: FAT32X and FAT16X are unnecessary neologisms for what you (among others) have already covered with partition type#PID_0Ch and partition type#PID_0Eh. However, you cannot simply make up new partition types for FAT+ and FAT32B on this list without proper references, where "proper" is again something passing the WP:COI, WP:OR, and WP:42 sanity checks.
  4. WP:CIVIL: An edit summary "Groundlessly reverting an editor providing a reliable source is disruptive" is okay if true, but the allegedly provided reliable source had an interesting history: AnomieBot added a date to my citation request, you replaced it with <ref name="Caldera_1998_FDISK">{{cite | title = FDISK | publisher = Caldera, Inc. | date = 1998}}</ref> claiming that it is covered in #Nomenclature, reverted by me after finding nothing in #Nomenclature and the bogus (empty) reference. That was neither "groundless" nor a "reliable source", maybe it was a case of "shit happens". The references are now better, thanks, but still mostly based on two partition software products, which used the WP:NEOs for marketing purposes. The FAT file system as specified by ECMA (and Microsoft for FAT32) does not depend on LBA and partition types.

Be..anyone (talk) 23:10, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Quadruple (computing) listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Quadruple (computing). Since you had some involvement with the Quadruple (computing) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. . Ditto Quartet (computing), Tetrade (computing), and Half-byte. –Be..anyone (talk) 02:00, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

A deletion nomination of four valid terms used by experts in the respective fields by someone who appears to be obsessed with deleting stuff he doesn't personally know as "neologisms" and who (among other things) obviously doesn't understand the purpose of redirects. While quality control is a very good thing, it often requires deeper insight into a subject, and unreasonably overdoing it easily becomes counterproductive, as such practises are unnecessarily binding other editors' precious time and resources and thereby harm the progress of the project.
The result of the discussion was that all four redirects should be kept. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 12:24, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of 日独写真機商店[edit]

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A tag has been placed on 日独写真機商店, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A2 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be a foreign language article that was copied and pasted from another Wikimedia project, or was transwikied out to another project. Please see Wikipedia:Translation to learn about requests for, and coordination of, translations from foreign-language Wikipedias into English.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. TF92 (talk) 10:04, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

A2 does not apply to redirects at all, but more important, it's a valid term for a redirect. Kept per my contestation and the follow-up discussion at User talk:RHaworth/2015 Jun 12#.E6.97.A5.E7.8B.AC.E5.86.99.E7.9C.9F.E6.A9.9F.E5.95.86.E5.BA.97
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 12:24, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

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Ways to improve List of Sony E-mount cameras[edit]

Hi, I'm Sulfurboy. Matthiaspaul, thanks for creating List of Sony E-mount cameras!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. Fails what wikipedia is not.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse. Sulfurboy (talk) 20:52, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

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X flash synchronization Comment[edit]

You realize that "X" isn't a section on the target page right? It's not redirecting to anything specific on the page. Compassionate727 (talk) 15:56, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but there is no requirement for such anchors to exist on the target page. The link targets exist to aid the possible future development of the article as it helps to keep logically or semantically different things separated regardless of how the article develops in the future. Linking to a cumbersome section title like the one in the artcle is not a good idea, as the title will likely change in the future.
While not mandantory, I just added anchors to the article. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 16:01, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Semantic relationships[edit]

Hi Matthiaspaul. Re this edit. I agree that Dioptrics is conceptually relevant and should stay. In general, semantic and linguistic relationships are completely irrelevant for See also links. This is because Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary. More specifically, the topic of an article is not the title of the article. The topic of an article is the thing that the title describes. Things that have a linguistic relationship to the article title but not a conceptual relationship to the actual topic of the article are completely irrelevant. It's not a matter of degree. --Srleffler (talk) 19:59, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

catadiopter or catadioptre[edit]

Hi, I reverted the addition[15] of "historically also known as catadiopter or catadioptre" because the statement is not supported by reference given, it is not a historical treatise on etymology and simply shows someone using one of the words. Wikipedia is not a dictionary where we see a word used and then try to come up with a definition and doing so is very much original research by Wikipedia standards. I have looked for a usable definition and have failed, it keeps coming up as a foreign language term or being used by what may be non-English speakers[16] (they may be misusing the word). At this point you really need to fulfill WP:BURDEN, i.e. citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:36, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Your edit re: Minolta shift lens[edit]

Howdy. In your edit to the Minolta portion of the Perspective control lens page, you changed my Rokkor link to SR-mount, stating, "Has nothing to do with Rokkor but with SR-mount." I have no idea what you mean, because this lens was in fact a Rokkor lens. (I used to own one, and you can in fact verify this by viewing the image on my first source, or on this KEH page.) You are correct that it was made for the SR-mount, but both things can be true at the same time, and in fact are when it comes to this lens. Hzoi (talk) 23:08, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Hzoi, yes and no. I don't dispute that the lens you owned was labelled "Rokkor", but between 1976 and 1985, Minolta produced five versions of this lens. All of them were SR-mount lenses, but only the two 1976 versions were Rokkor lenses, which were replaced by a non-Rokkor version in 1977 already. So, the common property describing this lens is that it was an SR-mount lens, not, that it was a Rokkor lens. The fact that it was an SR-mount lens is also important to know for compatibility reasons in an overview about perspective control lenses, whereas the fact that there also was a version labelled Rokkor is perhaps nice to know for (us) Minolta users, but not really relevant in the article, after all, Rokkor was just a marketing name, not a physical property of a lens. Actually, mentioning specifically the Rokkor version in this context is unnecessarily narrowing the scope, as it rules out the non-Rokkor versions, and it is therefore misleading. That's why I removed it. These are the five versions of the lens:
  • Minolta Shift CA Rokkor 2.8/35mm (MPN 613-018, 1976-1977, type: "MC-X")
  • Minolta Shift CA Rokkor-X 2.8/35mm (MPN 613-318, USA only, 1976-1977, type: "MC-X")
  • Minolta Shift CA 2.8/35mm (MPN 613-310, 1977-1978, type: "MD-I")
  • Minolta Shift CA 2.8/35mm (MPN 613-???, 1978-1982, type: "MD-II")
  • Minolta Shift CA 2.8/35mm (MPN 613-810, 1982-1985, type: "MD-III")
(BTW. I do own a MD-III.)... ;-)
Greetings --Matthiaspaul (talk) 15:44, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Interesting. My mistake, I was not aware that non-Rokkor or non-Rokkor-X versions existed; I'll change my edit. So the version you own has the focus confirmation prong for the X-600? Hzoi (talk) 18:13, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, my lens has the X-600 pin, so per Dennis Lohmann's nomenclature it is actually a "MD-III-i" rather than a "MD-III". So, strictly speaking, we have yet another version (613-818). --Matthiaspaul (talk) 21:47, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Interesting. I think I've only owned one MD lens with the focus pin, a 24/2.8. Not that it made much difference, as I only owned an X-600 for a couple of years before the novelty wore off. Hzoi (talk) 22:36, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
No, might have been a 50/1.7. Either way, I only had one with the last MD mount. Hzoi (talk) 22:40, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


Hello. I was hoping you could share your motivation for moving the Mikro page to Mikro (Greek band) and redirecting to the dab page, considering there doesn't seem to be any other conflicting topic. Thanks! -- Fyrael (talk) 05:03, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi, not providing a proper edit summary was a mistake of mine. In fact, I meant to give one here as well (as I usually do), but somehow I accidently hit the button before I had a chance to enter it. Sorry for that.
The reason I moved the page is that "Mikro" is just an alternative spelling variant of "Micro", and a lot of the topics on the DAB page might be searched under "Mikro" as well by people. Such spelling variants are often combined on a single DAB page for convenience, even more so as it is a very common prefix used in science and technology, and as there is another band named "Micro" as well. The alternative would have been a hatnote on the band's article pointing to the other Micro band and the Micro disambiguation page, but I really felt that the Greek band isn't the primary topic here (the article has no references and only few incoming links, so it isn't even clear if the article would meet our notability criteria if it were challenged). Greetings, --Matthiaspaul (talk) 09:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)


Thank you for your extensive cleanup of the references and for taking out the factually incorrect statements concerning the "definition" of RPL which I had marked dubious. :)

I didn't intend to make the introduction overly verbose (although it became so), but instead I was trying to make it clear that the "RPL" acronym doesn't really "officially" expand to anything, although it's commonly expanded to Reverse Polish Lisp -- thank you for changing "stands for" to "derived from". :)

If it's ok with you, I'd like to at least include a footnote reference, which is already included in the references, but is obscured -- if it had its own "== Notes ==" section, with the quote by Wickes, then I think there'd be less confusion concerning any "controversies" surrounding the "definition" of the "RPL" acronym. If you don't think this is a good idea, then that's fine -- just a suggestion. :)

Thank you and regards, Jdbtwo (talk) 18:23, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you as well, Jdbtwo. The funny thing is that I planned to rework the misleading lede and had already prepared references for inclusion in the article when I saw that you tagged the incorrect statement and added some of the same references. Good timing, I guess. ;-)
Regarding the definition of RPL. I don't think it is necessary to further elaborate on it in the article - actually, there isn't much of an issue regarding the meaning at all: Most users just take RPL to mean "Reverse Polish Lisp", semi-official or not. I could find only a single (1987) source for "ROM-based Procedural Language" (and a few more discussing this). Adding more on this, we would be risking to put undue weight on the second meaning. We already quote the source in the reference - so this information is there for anyone interested. That's already "above standard", therefore, I don't think we need to put this into a more prominent place. I would rather like to see an expansion of the article in regard to the language itself.
Greetings, --Matthiaspaul (talk) 00:18, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Re: Page move request[edit]

I posted here to gather additional consensus on the proposed moves. Regards, Samsara 23:46, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

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Matthias, Arcfourth links to Minute and second of arc#Fourth, but that section does not exist, and the word "fourth" doesn't even appear in the article. Where should this target to? Oiyarbepsy (talk) 02:22, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Looks like several other of the redirects you created have the same problem. Please have a look. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 02:23, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Hi Oiyarbepsy. Yes, I know. This is because another editor removed that information. It will be added again with more sources, but before I'll come around to address this I'll first have to finish a number of other edits already prepared. The redirect is pointing to the correct target already. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 02:42, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

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ArbCom elections are now open![edit]

You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)