User talk:Mianne Bagger

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Welcome![edit]

Hello, Mianne Bagger, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{help me}} before the question. Again, welcome! Sportfan5000 (talk) 12:59, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Fixing errors[edit]

Information icon Please do not write or add to an article about yourself, as you apparently did at Mianne Bagger. Creating an autobiography is strongly discouraged – see our guideline on writing autobiographies. If you create such an article, it may be deleted. If what you have done in life is genuinely notable and can be verified according to our policy for articles about living people, someone else will probably create an article about you sooner or later (see Wikipedians with articles). If you wish to add to an existing article about yourself, please propose the changes on its talk page. Please understand that this is an encyclopedia and not a personal web space or social networking site. If your article has already been deleted, please see: Why was my page deleted?, and if you feel the deletion was an error, please discuss it with the deleting administrator. Please also see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Tewapack (talk) 17:40, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

While you people continue to put incorrect information and/or dates where it concerns me and my (very) personal life, I am going to correct it!! I would prefer if the whole page was deleted, but that obviously isn't going to happen! I can hardly be accused of doing anything remotely like 'writing a biography' after merely having edited a few dates and factually incorrect description of events and history. Mind your own business when it comes to writing about someone else and get off your high horse! Got it?! I don't even know if you're going to get this message? Tewapack Mianne Bagger (talk) 11:38, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

If you are Bagger, you might avail yourself at Wikipedia:OTRS noticeboard, where volunteers can work with you to verify your identity and work to fix article problems. Another more direct route is to avoid any problems with people questioning who you are and the reliability of the info, by posting to the talk page of the article with the information and with a link to a reliable source for where someone else can look it up to confirm the info.

It's in all our interest to make the article accurate by way of reliable sources. Unfortunately that also means that if the sources are wrong, we follow them rather that rely on our own knowledge.

Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide will help explain some of why we do things this way. Right now, we can't just take your word for it that you are the real person as anyone could register the account. If I did, anyone could just come on here and say they're any notable person and accuracy would go out the window. I'll try to help and I know others will as well. Help us find reliable sources for the article, it will make this 10-year old article improve. Sportfan5000 (talk) 11:52, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
I understand what you say and of course, I could be just anybody. I don't have the inclination to sort out how to use this complicated system that is Wikipedia and just wanted to correct some errors. With regard to providing links to so called 'reliable sources', sometimes they don't exist. The only source to the correct information (in this case) is me. There are already some points on the page that aren't supported by reliable links, in which case they should be removed (and shouldn't have been added in the first place)! For all you guys that write all these articles, either make sure you can confirm the information/facts you post, or don't post it at all. In many cases, it is other people's lives you affecting! Mianne Bagger (talk) 12:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
After having a look at some of the information you have directed me to Sportfan5000 and having read through the page referring to me, I've decided that it's time it gets picked to pieces and corrected. I'm sick of the incorrect information being posted and serious *lack* of information being included. It either get's corrected, or deleted! I will follow some of your links when I can and see what I can get sorted. Mianne Bagger (talk) 12:51, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
It will take a few go arounds but I'll help however I can. Sportfan5000 (talk) 14:38, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Going forward[edit]

Ok, so I guess, firstly, you have to confirm that I'm me! How do we do that? Mianne Bagger (talk) 23:25, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
...and with this messaging thing (Talk), do I just keep writing here? Do I have to add your name like I have been doing so you get notification? How does it work? (I've tried finding help files, but this stuff is confusing!) :/ Mianne Bagger (talk) 23:25, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
The OTRS folks are really the only way to confirm your identity. What I can help with is trying to research, verify, and fix errors in the article. I have this page in my watch list, so anytime there is a change to it, it will be on my list. If you click on "preferences" you can enable your own list, but you don't have to at all. Just take things a step at a time, the article has been here for a decade so it's not going anywhere. You might want to explore a little to see how other articles look, all are just the latest drafts, nothing is "finished."

Perhaps you could tell me what you feel are the biggest problems with the article and we can start from there? Sportfan5000 (talk) 02:36, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
I found some sources and am working on a bit of a rewrite. Sportfan5000 (talk) 05:26, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Ok. Firstly, please be mindful of the language/terminology you use and be respectful to the fact that you are writing about a living person. You're not going to know the correct language to use, so please be amenable to me helping you with that.Mianne Bagger (talk) 05:52, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
No worries, I have some experience with trans*/intersex issues. And anyone can edit the articles - that's in part how we got here. I'll post a first round in a few hours - I hope! Sportfan5000 (talk) 05:59, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Crap! I just wrote a long reply with edits and it got lost!! :( ... Mianne Bagger (talk) 06:04, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
...please refrain from using the word 'trans' *anything*. I don't use it and you won't find it on my own website. I consider it a derogatory term and one that offends me deeply. Mianne Bagger (talk) 06:06, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Most of the issues now (after I've corrected terminology and errors) are the order of events (which were in my previos [lost] reply). I will get back to that another time. I will also find some appropriate and medical references/papers for you to reference. I know who the experts are in this field, and it sure as hell isn't the IOC/IAAF!!! They should be reported on their atrocities and human rights abuses against women in sport in fact. But that's another issue. Mianne Bagger (talk) 06:12, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
If you were the one that added the reference to IAAF stating that they stopped sex testing in 1992, you may want to remove it. They were the people that violated Caster Semenya through sex verification practices!! These people are the ones perpetuating the horrors in international sport and they need to be stopped! What they put Caster through was horrendous. Mianne Bagger (talk) 06:17, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry if you are offended by the term trans woman, it's rather standard on Wikipedia so you'll likely see it again. I'm very familiar with the Caster case. Sportfan5000 (talk) 07:15, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Phase 1 complete[edit]

OK, i gave it a bot of an overhaul, and tried to pull out the golf information more. I'm not that familiar at all with golf tours so that may be an area where you can fill out what is notable to add. Additionally I'm sure i could have misread, or interpreted something, feel free to move things around or otherwise clean it up. If you also just want to walk away from it all, I can understand that as well. In any case I hope I've helped move things along at least a little bit. Sportfan5000 (talk) 09:17, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Well you have been busy! I do appreciate your effort, but I almost wish I'd left it alone now. :/ You are being very kind in going to this effort, but now the editing and corrections begin ;) ...There are numerous errors in this re-write and if they aren't corrected to my satisfaction in a timely manner, I'll have to find other means of how I get that seen to.
The previous version of the page had a 'box' at the top of the page, stating that much of the article still needed verification. Why has that now been removed? Can you verify every single piece of data on that page? ...there are quite a number of errors on there and I question how much of it can be verified? There are a number of assumptions that have been made and according to this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability that is not acceptable. An excerpt from the first paragraph.. "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it.[1]" ...If you are unable to verify *any* data/facts, I would like them removed please. To start with, such things as; date of birth. Nationality. Residence. Height. ...
First rule ... please don't make assumptions!
You have also written 'Former Tours'. Please explain that. I'm currently still touring! (another assumption)
The terminology is still very unsatisfactory and I abhore being referred to as a 'transsexual'!! Are you aware of how dehumanising and derogatory that is?! Please remove those references ASAP.
Think of it this way... Not so many years ago, African people were referred to by a rather derogatory term, that everyone thought was normal (I can't even get myself to write it). People thought that it's just what they were and was what they were called. It was normal accepted language. That of course has changed today. The reference of 'trans' anything, although still being used by some people, is being removed from more recent publications. Greater attention is applied to the broader aspect of natural human diversity. I respect that you have attempted to approach this issue, but it is difficult to write about something when you don't fully comprehend the subject matter.
So where do we go from here? Mianne Bagger (talk) 10:02, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
The stats were taken from Bagger's profile pages at each of the two Tours' websites. Unless we have a reliable source that says they are wrong, they're going to stay. Alternatively, you can contact OTRS and share with them a copy of your ID and they can make a change. The 'Former Tours' was an error, and has been corrected. 'Transsexual' is taken directly from the sources. This is a part of the language issues we have on Wikipedia, it's not realistic to say this one article won't use language as reported in reliable sources. Sportfan5000 (talk) 19:49, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Hi, that's fair enough. I still don't like the 'T' word and will change them when I get a chance. Please try to understand how offensive it is. I have a life to live and I strive for change. I appreciate your efforts and would like to help make it a better piece. I have just started touring for the Aussie season so I don't have so much time, but will write again when I get a chance. I have a number of corrections to make. Shal I make the corrections or shall I write them to you for you to make the correction? Mianne Bagger (talk) 10:54, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
I suggest making them yourself and seeing if they stick, Worse comes to worse you would make your case to OTRS and see what they say. Sportfan5000 (talk) 14:16, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Mianne Bagger, you are invited to the Teahouse[edit]

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Hi Mianne Bagger! Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia.
Be our guest at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a friendly space where new editors can ask questions about contributing to Wikipedia and get help from peers and experienced editors. I hope to see you there! Doctree (I'm a Teahouse host)

This message was delivered automatically by your robot friend, HostBot (talk) 20:42, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Transitioned woman[edit]

I have created a wikilink so transitioned woman will correctly get readers seeking information to our article on trans women. You might not want to hear this but until there is a significant shift change in culture, which Wikipedia follows, to using "transitioned woman," we are still going to use "trans woman" as the preferred, and more inclusive, term. I think people will not accept it for a few reasons, but for me the main issue is that it implies someone has already transitioned, which is not universally true. For some people it's an evolution, or they may be in very early stages. While I think it's OK to use the term in certain ways on the Bagger article. We do have to be faithful to what the sources state as well. If you find sources that contradict using other terms on your article then we will consider them as well. Sportfan5000 (talk) 12:01, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate your efforts, although I do have a request, or something for you to ponder ... maybe consider who you think might create this 'change in culture'? If not someone that is living the experience and is negatively impacted by such stigmatising terminology and reference, then who? Doctors aren't going to do it. They are far too arrogant and aren't affected by their treatment of patients. And that is part of the problem ...they see gender diverse people as 'patients'. First and foremost, I am a human being, and then I am a woman. Because I don't fit society's idea of what a 'stereotypical' woman, then it feels it has the right to give me a 'title', or term as some 'thing'. ...as do the likes of you (intended respectfully). You sit there (where ever you are) writing about me as a 'topic', or subject', or news item, not as a human being. Someone that has relationships and work and socialising to consider in our big wide world. I decided that *I* wanted to be one of those people to start the 'culture shift' and as you can see from some of the research papers and articles, it has already started to happen. So, the fact that I want the term used, is not something completely unheard of, but it is if people only decided to limit their vision to popular global trash media. They could care even less about us as people!
Who do you think changed the reference of 'nigger' to african-american people in the day? It sure wasn't any doctor, politition or groups of so called 'white people'. It was people that were negatively impacted by the reference. There were people like you then that probably had the same stance as you ..."well, everybody else refers to you as such, so I will keep doing it until someone changes it". Well, they did it and now of course it is a horrendous reference to use. Everyone is a human being first and deserving of equal treatment in our societies, without some derogatory, unfounded slur on their character, just because someone else uses it.
Please consider your position: you aren't a journalist or a lawmaker or anybody with jurisdiction over anybody else. You are just a person ...another human being. What gives you the right to decide what is reasonable to write about someon else, when a person, who is living the experience and negatively impacted by it, is telling you that it is derogatory and dehumasing? You fob it off as 'not your responsibility'. Well, why not? If you feel it's your responsibility to use a derogatory term against someone's wishes, just because you think it's the 'approved pratice' of some text on the internet, then why can it not be your responsibility to respect someone who is one of the instigators of change (trust me, I am not the only one).
Why can you not also play the part of change? ...I'm asking you to be a part of that role. Mianne Bagger (talk) 07:11, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
In short, as a rule, Wikipedia follows what the sources say. The Bagger article is the first article I've seen or heard of to promoted the phrase transitioned woman, likewise we can use it in a limited fashion and if the reliable sources change over time to reflect that that is the most correct term to use, then there you go. The same general theory goes with everything we report across all subject areas. Sportfan5000 (talk) 09:19, 11 January 2014 (UTC)