User talk:Nfitz

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Welcome!

Hello Nfitz, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome!  HGB 01:47, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


List of people banned from my Talk Page: No one is banned from talk page. The only ban I remember having was rescinded in 2017. If there's any I've forgotten ... well I've forgiven. IPs welcome.

Contents

A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
Thanks for defending "William H. Moravek" when it was nominated for deletion. Much love! Ashkaan232 (talk) 23:56, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Mesfer Al-Qahtani[edit]

No evidence this is the same person, no evidence he is notable. Yet another pointless AFD to go through while you continue your crusade to retain non-notable articles. Kudos. GiantSnowman 23:51, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

+ 1... JMHamo (talk) 23:55, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
So where's this evidence? Where's the significant coverage in reliale, third-party sources? GiantSnowman 23:56, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Again, where is the evidence in reliable sources that he has played "for years" in FPL? GiantSnowman 00:01, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Different DOB; different spelling; not an uncommon name. Need I go on? GiantSnowman 00:05, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Not listed at any of Al Hilal's squads over the past 5 years. GiantSnowman 00:10, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Dmitri Gudey and Arseni Zakharov[edit]

The claims are unverified, and as I'm sure you're well aware there is plenty of AFD precedent to show that scraping through NFOOTBALL is not sufficient when the article fails GNG so comprehensively... GiantSnowman 14:08, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

If you are able to verify the claim to notability I'll remove the PRODs myself. GiantSnowman 16:16, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
Wait, just seen you have - I've removed them. GiantSnowman 16:18, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

MfD nomination of User:Nfitz/Wagner Santos Lago 2011[edit]

Ambox warning orange.svg User:Nfitz/Wagner Santos Lago 2011, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Nfitz/Wagner Santos Lago 2011 and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of User:Nfitz/Wagner Santos Lago 2011 during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Ricky81682 (talk) 07:25, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Edit summary[edit]

Hey, that edit summary to The X-Files miniseries page was not really called for. Let's try to remain civil here.--Gen. Quon (Talk) 02:28, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

ANI[edit]

As promised, your personal attacks have been reported at ANI; see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Accusations of misogyny. Number 57 22:08, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

The meaning of your first few posts was very clear, and your attempts to backpedal are not going to hide that. Your request for an apology is a joke. Number 57 22:14, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks + invitation[edit]

Stephanie-Cox-480.jpg

Thank you for your contributions to women's football/soccer articles. I thought I'd let you know about the women's football/soccer task force, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of women's football/soccer. If you would like to participate, join by visiting the Members page. Thanks!

Sergio D'Autilia[edit]

Hi Nfitz, Are you able to find sources for any other fpl appearances for this player because those you have provided indicate a career total four minutes of fully professional action. Doesn't really seem to satisfy GNG but the article indicates potential notability. Don't want to rush to AfD if there are other sources out there but will do if you can't locate them. Fenix down (talk) 21:32, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Not that I can see. Certainly not in 1996/1997 when he was with Inter (19 appearances on the bench in Serie A, plus one in the second leg of the 1997 UEFA Cup Final). Though I was still looking - I'm a bit mystified where he was for over a decade! Nfitz (talk) 21:36, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
No problem, carry on looking if you want. Seems like the sort of player who would be notable. Unlikely you would make an appearance for inter and then never play in any of the top four Italian leagues again. Thanks for finding the initial source by the way. Fenix down (talk) 21:39, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Plymouth United F.C.[edit]

The article has nothing on it, firstly it was not founded in 1888, it was founded in 1944. Unless there is any real evidence, or an article is constructed. It should be deleted. Govvy (talk) 07:25, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Toronto_rapid_transit#Requested_move_25_August_2016[edit]

The discussion on the name of this article has been reopened. Ground Zero | t 17:25, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open![edit]

Scale of justice 2.svg Hello, Nfitz. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Moves of SvG sport articles from Draft to mainspace[edit]

Hi Nfitz. Many thousands of sportsperson articles have been moved to Draft by Musikbot per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive941#User:Fram, with agreed cleanup guidelines as a result of the closing decision at User:Aymatth2/SvG_clean-up/Guidelines. Under the circumstances, closure at AFD regardless of notability is not grounds to move (and furthermore, the AFD was opened after the ANI closed).

I've added a cite for Pedrolia Martin Sikayun's club as that wasn't supported by the existing cite. At least some of the other pages you've reverted to mainspace have similar issues of missing sourcing, for instance Aye Aye Moe and May Sabai Phoo (2014 team membership?), Fadathul Najwa Nurfarahain Azmi (club membership?), or Luisa Marques (debut appearance?). Unsourced material should be sourced or removed if the articles are to remain in mainspace. ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 07:15, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Johnpacklambert ANI[edit]

Hi Nfitz. You might be interested in commenting at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Johnpacklambert re the sports AFDs. With his refusal to discuss on the talk page there isn't much else we can do. --- PageantUpdater (talk) 22:01, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

  • Yeah, I just noticed that, after I commented on his talk page. I've commented there as well. Nfitz (talk) 22:02, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Please....[edit]

... don't presume to apologize for me again - I'm perfectly capable of apologizing for myself if I think it's necessary. The 184 IP is a disruptive editor, most probably a sock, and you're just feeding it.

And while we're on the subject, who the heck are you? You appeared on the noticeboards a couple of days ago and suddenly you are all over the place. You've had an account since 2005, but you have a paltry 8,500 edits, only 36% of which are to articles, barely more then you've made to Wikipedia space (30.8%). I don't think you have the experience to be offering advice and opinions on AN and AN/I, and should instead spend your time improving the encyclopedia, which is the purpose we're here for. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:43, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

WP:BITE?[edit]

Maybe I misinterpreted the edit as an attempt to offend, but other editors seem to agree that it was clearly a (potentially hit-and-run) vandalistic edit that should have received a much smaller warning. I don't believe WP:BITE applies here. And while Saw might be a horror film, the villain wouldn't be called "the devil" given that he is usually portrayed as a self-righteous borderline anti-villain. DarkKnight2149 22:56, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Hello[edit]

I just wanted to drop you a note to let you know that you are banned from posting comments on my talk page, unless, of course, you are required to by Wikipedia policy. If you are required to post a notice on my talk page, please clearly indicate in the edit summary what policy you are doing so under. Any other posted comments will be deleted without being read.

Please note that this ban also applies to pinging me. Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:34, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

(copy of what I posted at BMK talk page, as they'll surely delete it shortly)
I'm not aware of any Wikipedia policy that allows you to ban me from your talk page. It's generally accepted that you can make that request, and that I should follow it as per WP:NOBAN, though is not policy, it is a guideline, and is not mandatory. But a ban is something else. There is no policy, or even a guideline, that exists for this one-way interaction ban. The English Wikipedia's banning policy, which states that individual editors, including administrators, may not directly impose bans. Nor is there any policy, guidelines, or such, about pinging - obviously endless pinging could be seen as harassment - but I have no intention of doing that. Nice try though. Other editors at the meeting did warn me that you'd probably do this.
People have your number. I think User:Furry-friend described it best at [1]. You did however, also request that I not post in the thread above. And I will accede to your request. I know you've got a long history of not being WP:CIVIL - how you get away with it I don't know given the pillar of WP:5P4 - but I hope that you can come to love yourself enough to one day be civil to your peers here. I wish you good luck in why we are here - improving the encyclopedia. Nfitz (talk) 01:51, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Nfitz, if you really would like to help Wikipedia retain editors you should try participating at the Teahouse - It's not secret Wikipedia has a problem retaining editors, but I honestly think you're wasting your time on that IP. In many of your arguments you mention the pillars of Wikipedia, and respect to contributors - something this IP editor has ignored from the very beginning (I was the first editor to interact with this IP, and I tried your approach first to no avail). This IP visibly does not WANT to work with people, so please stop trying. I understand what you are trying to do, and it is admirable - but this IP is looking for food, so let's let the admins deal with it for now. Garchy (talk) 16:48, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

The section above[edit]

Nfitz, both unwanted user talkpage posts and unwanted pings come under WP:COMMONSENSE, and the wikilawyering which you repost here after BMK removed it from his page (or in anticipation of him removing it) is unimpressive. Obviously "banned" means you're not welcome there; isn't that enough? Also, in particular, I'm not surprised BMK warns you off his page when you post offensive psychobabble there such as "I hope that you can come to love yourself enough to one day be civil to your peers here", and supercilious advice about "improving the encyclopedia". Do you repost those things here on your own page because you're so proud of them? If it was me, I'd be glad they'd been blanked. Incidentally, what's this about your "policy" stated at the top of your talkpage that requires you to respond on the other person's page? (Per this edit summary. How can a principle you made up yourself require you to do anything? And more to the point, does it really require you to repost the other person's post on theirs, as if they had written it there, which is quite confusing? And then, on the assumption that he'll remove it, you repost your own post here, supposedly to illustrate "long-term issues of Beyond My Ken", leaving your "principle" full of holes. Leave BMK alone. I don't only mean don't post on his page, I also mean don't troll him on yours or elsewhere. Feel free to reply on my page if you prefer, but no reposting back and forth of my original post, please. Bishonen | talk 00:00, 4 March 2017 (UTC).

ANI[edit]

I'll be the first person to admit that I probably hang out at ANI more than I should, and there are definitely threads there that can benefit from the input of non-admin but experienced editors. But it's not necessary for any one person to comment on nearly every thread there, and none of us, not even admins, should reach the point where drama boards constitute the majority of our time editing. You seem to be quickly approaching that point, and some of your contributions seem a bit more geared toward arguing with others for its own sake, rather than making a contribution that actively moves the thread toward some kind of resolution. So, just a heads up that this trend is becoming...noticeable to others. TimothyJosephWood 12:52, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

  • If I may, I'd like to make an observation/request: Posts such as yours here [2] are unhelpful IMO in several ways: (1) The non-permalink RFPP link goes dead within a few minutes of the protection being done. (2) You could have closed the thread, with a clear and detailed explanation (what kind of protection, for how long, who made it), when you made that observation. (3) Not closing it forces someone else to figure out what has actually happened. (4) Since the non-permalink RFPP thread is a dead link and the article itself is not even linked in the ANI thread, the closer must copy+paste the article name to search for it, go into the article's history, and see what kind of protection was placed and for how long. My request would be: If you are going to post the apparent resolution to a thread, do so more thoroughly, precisely, and completely. Thanks. Softlavender (talk) 08:52, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the tips! I was unsure if it was kocher to do a non-admin closure - but you've answered that one. Thanks again! Nfitz (talk) 23:11, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
It is, but only by very experienced editors. And only if the thread has been resolved by an admin, and only if you fully explain the resolution in the close, and only if you add the template {{nac}}. Softlavender (talk) 23:18, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks again!. Nfitz (talk) 23:47, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Impressive[edit]

I really been impressed for your answer to my little question, but it is just a big question because it has to do with what they term vandalization, but you justified me right, 'everyone has write to edit to correct misspelt or direct a paragraph. Thanks 197.210.24.231 (talk) 10:56, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Michael Cole[edit]

Is unambiguously notable, notwithstanding the AfD. You say "None of the references are from after the last deletion discussion", but that has no bearing whatsoever on anything. I suggest that you go to a second AfD should you wish for deletion, since the case for general notability is unimpeachable, and the subject's appeal is of little or no standing given the well-referenced state of the current article. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:52, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Mozambique non-existent stadiums[edit]

Hi Nfitz, thanks for bringing back the need to delete these articles about non-existent Mozambican stadiums. Are they going to be deleted this time? Keep the good work! Teixant (talk) 13:18, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Tubuia[edit]

Hi Nfitz, have CSD the article, agree with you a probable hoax. Tubuai is an island in Tahiti which RSSSF shows is the base of a number of minor clubs, but I can find nothing to indicate there was ever a team representing the island as a whole in any Tahitian competition, nor that there has ever been a third tier of Tahitian football operating at a national level. Thanks for flagging. Fenix down (talk) 13:51, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

As User:Fenix down are virtually every article ever created by sockpuppet User:Mozaikka, User:Waidoer, and User:Shtraker. Sadly though, some have since been partially fixed, and others managed to pass a mass AFD because the teams were notable (ignoring that the content was entirely fictional other than the team-name). Contemporary attempts to clean up the mess were stone-walled by do-gooders ... I tripped over it in a recent PROD by someone else. Nfitz (talk) 14:11, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Not something I was aware of to be honest, but will have a look through and try to review. If a hoax, then I will delete, if not then the article should just be reduced to xxxx is a football club from yyyy competing in the zzzz league to show notability. Fenix down (talk) 14:32, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I was going to go through them slowly using a combination of prod, AFD, and simply removing most of the suspect text, as appropriate. Each article is a little different story after 9 years of various attempts to fix, improve, and neglect. Nfitz (talk) 14:43, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

WikiDefender Barnstar Hires.png The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
This is the absolute spirit of the project. I just hope someone listens. — O Fortuna semper crescis, aut decrescis 08:09, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Language competancy[edit]

Copying the deleted comment from the user's talk page (I've no idea why we are stifling discussion ...)

@Nfitz: You have gotten it all wrong. The indeffed user was completely oblivious to multiple attempts by a variety of independent editors to point out to them that their English was far below WP:COMPETENCE. Further, when faced with actual consequences the user reacted in a self-destructive way that has nothing to do with any action of any editor. Go and look at the extensive history of these attempts - and during that process, be aware that the user selectively deleted postings from the talk page, in what can only be seen as deceptive behaviour. Happy editing. Lklundin (talk) 17:46, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

User:Lklundin I certainly looked at some of them - perhaps there was a particularly egregious example I missed? He's been here 10 years, and suddenly this is an issue? His English seemed reasonably understandable to me. Someone just needs to come along and edit. At least that's what I think. Nfitz (talk) 20:08, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

July 2017[edit]

Your comments at Talk pages[edit]

If you don't like my administrative actions, take me to ANI. Otherwise, stop disruptively editing Talk pages of blocked users, or you risk being blocked. And don't spout "policy" to me, either.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:11, 17 July 2017

  • I don't see your reversion of my comment at User talk:A Great Catholic Person has anything to do with your administrative actions, as it wasn't your action. Any user is allowed to comment on a block unrequest, as per WP:BLOCK. Presumably this also applies to making comments before the inevitable request is made. I'm not sure why you call referencing a policy you seem to be unfamiliar with, or don't understand is "spouting" policy. I also don't see how this is disruptively editing talk pages. You seem to be failing to follow WP:AGF here. Also, many of your edits seem to be unnecessarily aggressive or rude. This violates WP:CIVIL and WP:5P4. Please remember that those guidelines are paramount, and perhaps take some time to review those policies, and follow them. Thanks! Nfitz (talk) 00:20, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Block for Disruptive Editing (withdrawn)[edit]

Stop icon with clock
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 31 hours for persistently making disruptive edits. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may request an unblock by first reading the guide to appealing blocks, then adding the following text to the bottom of your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.  Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:39, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
  • If you have a complaint about an admin action, take it up at their talk page or at ANI - but stop disrupting blocked editors' talk pages. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:40, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
  • User:Boing! said Zebedee Just saw this to save us both from having to deal with a block unrequest process, can you explain this further to me? You reverted my brief comment about the block on User:Moltenflesh on their talk page, and then blocked me for 31 hours with the reason of persistently making disruptive edits? How is commenting on the block, which any user is allowed to do, as per WP:BLOCK making disruptive edits? As I only restored this comment once, after the previous editor deleted it without comment, directly referencing the policy such comments are allowed under, how come you didn't address my comment in my restoration of this edit? I don't see anything in WP:DE that directly addresses comments on blocks. Can you explain why my comment on this block was deleted - when WP:BLOCK clearly states that anyone can comment on a unblock request? (Bbb23 and I also disagreed on another block, however as there is no current block unrequest, I'm not challenging that) Nfitz (talk) 03:51, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
  • If you make an unblock request and another admin disagrees with the block, they are welcome to unblock without needing my approval. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:32, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
  • @Boing! said Zebedee: Fair enough. Though I don't really want to start that process without a better understanding for the reason that you blocked me - I have to think I'm missing something here, given the clear words in WP:BLOCK that explicitly permit comments such as mine on User:Moltenflesh's unblock statement. So in order to understand the reason you blocked me, I'm asking you to clarify the action. As it currently stands, I'm liable to repeat my error without a better understanding of the reasons for my block. I'm a reasonable person - if I can understand the reason for the block, I'm not going to waste everyone's time with a pointless unblock request! BTW, I realised that my original query to you above is horrifically written - even I'm having difficultly understanding what I said! I can rewrite it for clarity if you would like. Nfitz (talk) 07:57, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
  • It is my opinion that repeatedly adding criticism of a checkuser's "sloppiness" when a) you have no idea of the evidence they have seen and they are not allowed to explain it (and therefore cannot defend it) and b) you have been asked to take it to more formal channels (where others who can see and examine the evidence that you can't will be present) is disruptive. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:16, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
  • You make it sound like I'm in the habit of criticizing checkusers' sloppiness - I've never done so before. My comment didn't even challenge the sloppiness of the actual checkuser itself. It challenged the sloppiness of them concluding it wasn't a slam dunk, but failing to record this in either the block log, the user page, or making any entry at all in Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Perfect Orange Sphere. There's nothing in what I said that requires anyone to examine any actual checkuser evidence (though Bbb23 has already asked for that). I don't see how commenting on this, in the so-far ignored unblock request is wrong - in fact, surely it's the perfect place to question a block based on an admission of not entirely clear evidence given that there's no need for others to check the evidence. Whatsmore my comment was removed without an edit summary; there was a comment on my talk page saying If you don't like my administrative actions, take me to ANI which is hardly the civil response justifying their actions that administrators are expected to provide. Nfitz (talk) 08:47, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Unblock Request[edit]

File:Orologio rosso or File:Orologio verde DOT SVG (red clock or green clock icon, from Wikimedia Commons)
This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who accepted the request.

Nfitz (block logactive blocksglobal blocksautoblockscontribs deleted contribscreation log change block settingsunblockfilter log)


Request reason:

I was blocked by User:Boing! said Zebedee for "disruptive editing of blocked editors talk pages". I tried to get clarification on this (above), and it's related to questioning a checkuser's work in the wrong forum. The edit in question was a comment on an unblock request by User:Moltenflesh (a request that as far as I can tell, has been ignored—Moltenflesh was blocked by User:Bbb23 for sock puppetry). As WP:BLOCK clearly and simply states that Any user may comment on an unblock request, there was no reason to remove my comment. The comment was first removed by Bbb23 without an edit comment; I restored it noting that such comments were allowed as per WP:BLOCK, and shortly after the comment was again removed by Zebedee, and I was blocked. As the comment I made is allowable under WP:BLOCK (as any user may comment on an unblock request), and was not disruptive, but was in all good faith criticism of the block, then there is no basis for Zebedee blocking me, and I request that this block be lifted. Nfitz (talk) 09:04, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Accept reason:

I've been thinking this over again, and I now think I was too impatient. Instead of blocking, I should have come here and spoken to you about my concerns. I've unblocked you with what I hope is an acceptable message, and you have my apologies. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:10, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Unblocking administrator: Please check for active autoblocks on this user after accepting the unblock request.

Commentary after Block was Lifted[edit]

(Non-administrator comment) While I cannot speak for BsZ, I suspect the block has a locus around your contortionist levels of being over backwards to assume good faith on behalf of editors who have demonstrated disintrest in playing by the rules of Wikipedia. Your commentary on the AN boards gives the impression that you would rather give people third, fourth, or twenty nineth attempts to reform before receiving a sanction. From the surface your commentary doesn't help resolve the issue it only disrupts the dispute resolution process. For this reason, I suggest you re-think your actions and ask if they really bring a improvement to the community. Hasteur (talk) 15:17, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
@Hasteur:So I shouldn't assume good faith? There does seem to be a trend I don't like at WP:ANI of experienced editors and admins violating WP:5P4, which is far more fundamental than many of the issues they are very quick to block and alienate mere users over. And very quick to attack and bully those that merely seek due process. I didn't comment on this particular case at ANI - it was there only for a few minutes before a user blocked it. I don't disagree with you though, however, I think the group of editors who have demonstrated disinterest in playing by the rules of Wikipedia includes many of the denizens of WP:ANI. Nfitz (talk) 15:43, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
Definitely agree here - while you may have WP:AGF on the mind I see many of your actions coming across as "trying to hard" to see the good. Sometimes things are as they are, and it looked as if you were still waiting for a comment from the user even AFTER they made it abundantly clear they did not want to comment. I respect that your outlook tends to be conservative, and that you want to make sure we are not being heavy-handed with punishment - sometimes punishment is heavy handed and needs to be re-checked and modified, but it appears that you question many more outcomes than I would consider in that margin of error - it creates a situation where an editor like me may initially negate your comments, even in a case where it is fruitful. I would especially walk away in a case where the punished user has showed a certain degree of apathy to the situation as well. Just my thoughts - save your cape for a user who really needs it! Garchy (talk) 16:18, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
@Garchy: I do have concern when there is potential there, and in the case of AGCP, evidence of some good work, that we back them into some kind of red tape corner, and alienate them, as they perceive the process very differently than we do - particularly in cultures where we seem to be shaming people. Hmm and I've started to wonder if that bizarre racist comment was some kind of death by cop thing, rather than an statement of their beliefs. Nfitz (talk) 22:07, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
I don't think the user is actually racist (although they haven't said otherwise) - my feeling is, since the user has self-identified as autistic, that it is most likely a communication issue. The problem I had is that there were multiple attempts to let AGCP know that they have a chance to say something and explain their edits/actions, but they chose not to. I certainly hope they come back and contribute positively as they have, but I know that certain behaviors would have to change and they would need to communicate better, or at least attempt to converse with other editors! Garchy (talk) 14:02, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Agree. Wish there was better way to deal with these cases. Almost need some kind of interception team, to take to different process, without going nuclear. Particularly where there are cultural sensitivities; where a block history is seen an unimaginable dishonour one can't ever live with, and building a new persona is seen as the more honourable option. Nfitz (talk) 16:16, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

I think someone needs to be able to check up on how people are issuing blocks this is ridiculous Moltenflesh (talk) 00:50, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

On one hand I agree. One the other, it's a tough and often thankless job - and to keep it under control, you do have to move fast. Normally he get's it right. As long as there's a process to sort things out, then I think we have to live with some mess. Life is messy. Democracy is messy. I reacted because I thought he was ignoring it. I later realised he was taking it very seriously. I do wonder though if there should be some kind of flying oversight group, which would just keep an eye out for things, have a second thought. Anyone is free to start a discussion on process change. Nfitz (talk) 02:47, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

August 2017[edit]

Edit to Stephen Miller (political advisor) and complaint to WP:ANI[edit]

This edit to Stephen Miller (political advisor) (your only edit to the article or talk page ever) reverted all of my recent edits which included my removal of unsourced and poorly-sourced claims, in a BLP. You justified this in your edit-summary with "The last series of edits seems to have some bias in them" without identifying which edits and what bias, and by questioning the suitability of Fox News as an RS (it undoubtedly is.) Fair warning: repeat this behavior and I'll file a complaint immediately. James J. Lambden (talk) 18:51, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Shouldn't most edits be by people with no history at a page? How is that even an issue. How is The Economist poorly-sourced. And Fox news undoubtedly RS - that seems very unlikely - have you even seen the stuff they have on that channel? They even support an undoubtedly bigoted misogynist like Donald Trump, and fail to mention either that POS is a bigot and a misogynist. How does that meet RS? Nfitz (talk) 19:11, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. James J. Lambden (talk) 19:34, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Noticed you took this to ANI. Surely discussing this on Talk would be more appropriate, given there doesn't seem to have been any attempt to discuss these edits there. Nfitz (talk) 23:25, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you blanked the discussion with comment "odd", rather than addressing questions. How is it an issue that an editor at Stephen Miller (political advisor) is uninvolved? How is The Economist reference poorly-sourced? And how can anyone possibly claim that Fox News is undoubtedly RS given they are fringe media, involved in numerous bizarre conspiracy theories, and don't seem to meet criteria laid out at WP:RS? Nfitz (talk) 08:19, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

public figure[edit]

Dude, seriously, don't refer to public figures, Trump or otherwise, in those terms, especially in edit summaries (as these can't be reverted and must be rev-del'd). It's a potential BLP violation and will land you in trouble quickly.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:42, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

  •  ? (checks edit summaries). Wait, you mean referring to WP:CENSORED  as a "  WP:CENSORED   "? He has frequently been discussed in those terms in the main-stream media. These are - simply facts. A quick "WP:CENSORED "+"  WP:CENSORED   "&lr=&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=nws google news search gets 92 hits for that as a phrase together - and presumably a lot more if I searched separately - much of it from main-stream newspapers. BTW, I'd appreciate it if you didn't refer to me as "dude" - I don't think I've ever indicated my gender or preferred pronoun - but it certainly isn't dude!. Nfitz (talk) 23:24, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
Sure, but these are mostly op-ed pieces so these characterizations should be avoided and not made in Wikipedia voice without attribution. I'm gonna tell you right now too that if you keep doing it you will be blocked and you will make it easier for WP:CENSORED's supporters to attack you. Don't give'em an excuse.
Sorry about the dude thing. It's more of an expression of excitement rather than a personal address. Like, you know, if there's a big thunder storm and you say "dude!" - you're not actually attributing gender to the thunder clap, just saying "whoa!". But I'll avoid it in the future, no problem.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:33, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
There's a big thunder storm, and you say dude? And you wonder (sorry, y'all wonder) why I make jokes about American use of English. If there's any WP:CENSORED  supporters around here, surely they should be banned, given his extreme "  WP:CENSORED   " - only a WP:CENSORED supports a WP:CENSORED. There's no doubt about WP:CENSORED's WP:CENSORED, with his WP:CENSORED ban (as if the other 50 or so comments in the last year weren't enough, but this is the only recent bright-line I can think of - though the extreme WP:CENSORED he displayed in the 1970s with his stopping WP:CENSORED from   WP:CENSORED  s in his building should have been enough). Besides, all the word seems to mean in an American context is "intolerant toward those holding different opinions". I don't think even a white WP:CENSORED would disagree with that description! Ironically, in an American context, anyone who opposes white WP:CENSORED is a WP:CENSORED ... And WP:CENSORED .. even the right-wing media use this word freely such as WP:CENSORED and WP:CENSORED. Now, if I'd used the word "WP:CENSORED" in an edit summary, you might have a valid point! Nfitz (talk) 23:47, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
Not how this works.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:23, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
Not sure I agree, but I'm not particularly good at not being blunt, and tolerating extremism - which is why generally I avoid editing in the topic of that particular nation's politics. Only found myself there, wondering who this person was, when I noticed that something odd was afoot in the recent edits, when quickly trying to fix a recently-broken reference. Nfitz (talk) 08:12, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Language[edit]

Hi - I'm stopping by in response to an ongoing thread on WP:AN/I regarding the goings-on at Stephen Miller (political advisor) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Some of the language you're using, particularly with regard to Trump, is unhelpfully inflammatory when it comes to trying to edit collaboratively. Everyone has his or her political views, but on Wikipedia one's expression of those views needs to be tempered by the need to maintain a productive editing environment. What I'm saying is: please tone it down several notches. If you feel too strongly about the subject to do so, then it's probably best to avoid editing the articles in question. MastCell Talk 22:44, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

  • Thanks for dropping in. Not sure what political views has to do with a demagogue like WP:CENSORED . He's always seems apolitical - the guy is (or was) a life-long Democrat after all. Sometimes we elect (for lack of a better word, let's call it a "microwave" - which presumably even the American's have yet to turn into some ethnic epithet yet). If one is so utterly blinded by one's political allegiances to the point that one can't acknowledge that a "microwave" is a "microwave", one shouldn't be editing here. We've seen time and time again, where a leader appears who is so  WP:CENSORED  , that their party is all but wiped out, or greatly reduced in standing. WP:CENSORED or WP:CENSORED in Canada; I dare say     in the UK; and presumably other examples in other democracies if I could be bothered to look them up. I fail to understand why Americans seem to not only stay on the WP:CENSORED, but actually flock to it. And I really don't think we should coddle or WP:CENSORED to those with such a lack of perspective - I don't think it's healthy in the long-term for the project, or society in general. I have no idea how the USA got to the point, where it became okay to not only express such extreme WP:CENSORED and WP:CENSORED publicly, but actually still be electable after doing it. And perhaps it's because there's some belief, that one must not reply to it, in the same terms - which is toning up several notches, not toning down. Personally, I think that if there is someone on the project, who is so WP:CENSORED and utterly out-of-step with society, morality, and normality, that they think it's okay to support  WP:CENSORED  to suggest that WP:CENSORED or WP:CENSORED folk can't  WP:CENSORED  - quite frankly, they should be  WP:CENSORED  - and  WP:CENSORED  as a whole, so that they  WP:CENSORED . And I don't see that as political - I'd hope that attitude would be universal to right and left - for such WP:CENSORED is not just the domain is the extreme right, but also the extreme left (which is a group we've seen much of in English-speaking countries in a few decades, but does exist elsewhere in North America). Nfitz (talk) 23:48, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

3 Day Block for BLP violation - August 8[edit]

Stop icon with clock
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 72 hours for contravening Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may request an unblock by first reading the guide to appealing blocks, then adding the following text to the bottom of your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.  Swarm 05:37, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
  • You can't just label living persons "sexual predators" on this project. Given the fact that you did so after two admins already stated that a block was appropriate for your behavior at ANI, I think this block is exceptionally lenient. Swarm 05:39, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
  • And no, the claim that your label, which was at best contentious, at worst defamatory, is "common knowledge", does not make it okay. Swarm 06:09, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
  • And see my comment at WP:ANI for extended rationale, as the link was cut off in the block log.[3] Swarm 06:29, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Furthermore, as your comments deal with a highly politicized topic, I will preempt any suggestion that this has anything to do with me disagreeing with your stated opinions: I very well may agree with everything you said, and I may well take your side on another forum. But I would never be at liberty to express such opinions on this project, nor would I ever, nor have I ever. Nor were you ever at liberty to do so. This is quite simply not a matter of whether or not your opinions are shared by myself, or even the vast majority of people around the world. Your comments are quite simply not acceptable on this forum. Adherence to BLP is a very serious thing and there is little tolerance for violations, and most users would not have been given the slack you were to make these comments in the first place. You were provided with more than enough leniency to make more inappropriate comments than was ever tolerable. Escalating your shockingly-flagrant BLP violations after the warning of an imminent block, with outright accusations of criminality, against more than one subject protected by BLP, is something that cannot be ignored. Swarm 06:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
Have to agree with Swarm here. I first saw that dispute yesterday and at the time it was already a bit of a mess but wasn't so long. Still I saw you comment "both a bigot and a misogynist - and I'm unaware of any person who meets those criteria who then is not a piece of shit" and thought, well seems someone is going to be blocked. Frankly I'm surprised it took so long. Probably one factor in your favour was that the views are shared by many and the person considered is very high profile so there is less impetus. Still that doesn't many of us think it's acceptable. It's not. As you were advised in a thread above, if you feel this strongly you probably should just stay way from the topic but at the very least you need to cut such comments like that out. Not only are they forbidden by BLP, but they also serve no purpose. They don't help resolve any dispute or form consensus about what articles should be like. Nil Einne (talk) 08:39, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Really User:Swarm? In what way is the comment about Bill Clinton either not NPOV, verifiable, nor Original Research? He was stripped of his licence to practice law in relation to the lies he told, after being sued by one of his victims? I have to say, of the comments I made that I thought might lead to an Administrator blocking me - this one wasn't even on the list! Particularly as I simply had only repeated the comment made by James J. Lambden, who received no sanction, and provided evidence [4] [5] [6]. I do owe James J. Lambden an apology though (and probably User:Hidden Tempo as well) - he is clearly correct, and there does appear to be two standards here - in fact, he over estimated what one has to say about a Democract to get blocked, given my comment was neither made repeatedly, nor with any intent to offend. Clinton was quite rightfully impeached for his crimes - can you tell me how me simply noting them is poorly sourced, sensationalist, the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives, or raises the possibility of harm to living subjects? Also, can you clarify who the two admins were? Both User:Drmies and User:Objective3000 seemed more concerned that an over 2000-year-old phrase about a shovel became racist after spade allegedly became an ethnic slur in some banana republic (why, is it because they are discriminated against with poor jobs, and you see them shovelling along the road?) - which is surely in violation of WP:SPADE. (BTW, Objective3000 - etymology fascinates me. I did search carefully for a definition of spade in the online OED (3rd edition, updated to 2017 at [www.oed.com]) for this, and cannot find this entry - what were you looking in? Do you have the entry number? I'm looking at entries 185449 through 185455, which provide 4 entries as noun, and 2 as a verb - but the newest entry dates to the 1600s (which is an obsolete probable spayed, meaning eunach); we are dealing with the Noun1 entry 185449 here, which dates to AD 725 in (Old) English - though presumably much further back to PIE; entry 185449 includes to call a spade a spade which dates to 178 BC, and to call a spade a (bloody) shovel which dates to 1919.). Overall, I am concerned that BLP is being used for things it wasn't designed for; the concern was the publication of unverifiable material about living individuals; not repeating well documented verifiable information - or even allowing the project to eliminate Fair comment of public persons on talk pages. And in particular it does seem to being used by centrist and right-wing Americans who support the Democrats to beat down extreme right-wing Americans who support Republicans.Nfitz (talk) 12:40, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
BTW, Objective3000 - etymology fascinates me. I did search carefully for a definition of spade in the online OED. 1986 OED Supplement Volume IV page 380. Origin is U.S., first use in Claude McKay’s Home to Harlem. Several other uses are isted, including James Michener's Chesapeake. Sorry, I don’t have access to the online OED. I have a print version at home – six feet long. The shelf is starting to buckle. :) Objective3000 (talk) 13:28, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Also rereading your comments? You said with outright accusations of criminality, against more than one subject protected by BLP. I have no idea what this is referring to - the only accusation I made of criminality was of Thomas Jefferson, who as far as I am aware, is dead, and no longer covered by BLP. Can you please explain what this is about - perhaps there's been a misunderstanding. Nfitz (talk) 13:00, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
    • "...Both User:Drmies and User:Objective3000 seemed more concerned...": no. I was not more concerned with that, as indicated by the parenthetical nature of the comment. This is not the way to help yourself. Drmies (talk) 13:29, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
      • One could read it another way. I thought you were talking about the hypothetical repeated use of WP:SPADE rather than my comment, given the context of what you wrote. You wrote that it was uttered and explained in a very public forum; if you are referring to my alleged well-sourced description using the letter S in an acronym, then it wasn't in a public forum, it was buried deeply in a comment on a user talk page, and somewhat later in an edit summary on a user talk page - as such your description of that didn't match my actions, so in context, I assume you were referring to the implying the black people use shovels thing (which makes no sense to me). Okay, fair enough, in a way that makes more sense - but you seem to think I uttered and repeated it in very public place - and I don't think a user talk-page meets that description. One question though User:Drmies - can you explain what you mean by "this is not the way to help yourself?". I'm asking questions to clarify the block, to decide if it's worth challenging it or not - how is that not the way to help myself? I could very well agree with the block, if it made sense to me - which I've noted above in my questions to User:Swarm - hmm, and looking at his edit history, may very well not appear again until the block has expired - that doesn't seem to be cricket! Nfitz (talk) 15:07, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
        • With "forum", of course I wasn't talking about the spade comment. Maybe Wikipedia:NOTSOAPBOX, which goes to the same place, makes it more clear. I said you're not helping yourself because this rather aggressive line of questioning suggests your block is somebody else's fault. Drmies (talk) 16:25, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
          • I don't see my line of questioning as being aggressive - I'm sorry you perceive it this way. Quite frankly, I find your responses somewhat aggressive, with unnecessarily complex English structures such as "as indicated by the parenthetical nature of the comment" and "With "forum", of course I wasn't talking about the spade comment". (not to mention the use of "forum" in the first place). Your language, I'm afraid, is often not particularly clear to others, I'm afraid. Quite frankly, I really don't know what you mean by forum; I've discussed this on no forum - I haven't even looked at those forums (that seem to trash some prominent admins and other ANI-hangerson quite viciously) - which one is this User:Drmies, perhaps I'm being impersonated? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nfitz (talkcontribs) 16:34, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Request for Block Clarification - August 8[edit]

File:Orologio rosso or File:Orologio verde DOT SVG (red clock or green clock icon, from Wikimedia Commons)
This blocked user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy). Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Nfitz (block logactive blocksglobal blocksautoblockscontribs deleted contribscreation log change block settingsunblockfilter log)


Request reason:

I'm not asking for an unblock (yet at least), but I'd tried to ask User:Swarm some questions to understand the reason he blocked me - but I've realized they are a very occasional editor, and looking at their edit history may well not appear before the block is long over. As WP:GAB doesn't address this, I'm sorry to use the unblock template this way - but don't see the alternative. User:Swarm took exception to my edit [[7]]. In particular, I don't understand his comment above ... with outright accusations of criminality, against more than one subject protected by BLP, .... I'm not aware of making ANY accusations of criminality yesterday or in the preceding fortnight (or heck years) against any living persons - let alone multiple people. As this seems to be central to the block, I need someone to explain to me what accusation of criminality I've made - as that certainly wasn't my intent! Nfitz (talk) 15:53, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Decline reason:

You've had your answer, whether you like it or not. Please observe that during your block, your talk page access is solely for the purpose of proper unblock requests. Favonian (talk) 17:19, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired.

  • Sorry, but while I'm here I might as well say "I don't get it". I don't get it: sexual predation, in most civilized countries, is a crime. Calling people "sexual predators", therefore, is accusing them of crimes. Which is a BLP violation. You can call Clinton and others whatever you want on other websites--but Wikipedia is not a forum for such utterances. Drmies (talk) 16:28, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Sexual predation is a crime? Since when? I just searched our criminal code[8], and the word "predator" or "predation" doesn't appear; UK criminal law is a bit tougher to search, but this seems to mostly about foxes, fish, and businesses ... a more specific search doesn't yield any law or regulations, just references in various documents that don't speak to the criminality of a sexual predator. I think you may be confusing the term with "sexual offender". My gosh, if sexual predator was a crime, they'd have to lock up every cougar or male teenager in the nation! That has to be one of the oddest comments I've seen. Looking in the OED, I also don't see any reference to "sexual predator", and word "predator" hasn't got criminal overtones. There's absolutely nothing criminal about being a sexual predator - certainly not in the English language. I really think you (User:Drmies) have the wrong end of the stick here. I'd have never have used the word "sexual offender", and there's nothing in "sexual predator" that implies any criminality, or as far as I can tell, violates BLP, given how well sourced the predatory nature of such individuals are! Nfitz (talk) 16:49, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Gosh! OK, please stop pinging me. Thank you! Drmies (talk) 16:51, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
Sorry - I thought that pinging was the appropriate thing to do these days when you reply to someone on your own talk page, rather than the traditional replying on their talk page. But hang on. So you agree with me? Sorry, it's not clear. If not, you've made a fundamental error here, as with your mistruth that sexual predation, in most civilized countries, is a crime you've leapt to Calling people "sexual predators", therefore, is accusing them of crimes. Which is a BLP violation - which it most certainly not, as sexual predation is not a crime in any civilized country that I'm aware of! And therefore no one was accused of crimes, nor is there a BLP violation. I'm not sure how much clear-cut that could be. Which if this is the basis for the block, means it's completely unjust! Nfitz (talk) 17:23, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
And that's what I feared User:Drmies, if I don't ping you, you don't actually account for your actions in any reasonable timeframe. You stated that sexual predation, in most civilized countries, is a crime. Calling people "sexual predators", therefore, is accusing them of crimes. Which is a BLP violation. . And then since then, everyone seems to simply says "what he says". However, I've found no indication that sexual predation is a crime in most countries - in fact, I'm yet to find an English-law based legal-system where it IS a crime. Our own sister project meanwhile defines a (wikt:cougar). (Canada, US, slang) An older woman who actively seeks the casual, often sexual, companionship of younger men, by implication a femalesexual predator”. This matches my understanding of the meaning of cougar and sexual predator - and clearly many, if not most, sexual predators aren't criminals. Therefore, your logic is faulty, and noting someone is a sexual predator is not accusing them of a crime. I've also shown that prominent world leaders have used the term "sexual offender" to describe both the living persons in question - one even has used it to describe themselves. So not only is there no accusation of crime, there is verifiability ... enough at least for there not to be an over-reaction of blocking someone for idly repeating it on a non-main space talk page, after someone else provided 3 supporting references! I do note though, that with some research does seem to be used somewhat differently in some regions of the USA, where it seems to have more of a meaning of sexual offender - however, this doesn't seem to be a common in most countries, or any country I've ever resided - nor does it seem to be historical; the push seems to have come out of how things have been phrased in recent years in the US legal system, unlike the English law system in use in most English-speaking nations (for sake of argument, I'll assume that these are all civilized, despite some of their leaders (of course, I refer to May's alliance with the creationist-DUP here :) ).
To be clear, the question is, in which civilized countries is sexual predation a crime (I'm assuming that even the USA isn't jailing cougars yet); and given that it appears that statement is erroneous, how is repeating the very public, considered, words of the US President, and US Vice President, and many other well known leaders a BLP? (right-wing Prime Minister Campbell, one of our most respected former leaders wise words come to mind - who is a lawyer, former justice minister (i.e. attorney-general), head of the Supreme Court Advisory Board (yes here, the centrist government actually appoints right-wing leaders to things), and good grief, the chair of the steering committee of the World Movement for Democracy). Nfitz (talk) 03:00, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
To be clear, staying away from here is exactly what I wanted, since blah blah blah--I have no interest whatsoever in discussing this stuff with you. It's kind of redundant to anyone but you, but I have made no actions, nor do I need to account for them. That you misread my comments and are now playing dense is no concern of mine: I'm not the one trying to get unblocked. The only one whose actions need accounting for are yours. Good luck with that. Drmies (talk) 12:24, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
  • User:Favonian can you clarify your response? Two things: a) With the blocking Admin likely not available until after the block expires, what process do I use to ask questions, if I can neither ask them, or use an unblock template for clarification, or ping uninvolved Admins. Is there a different template I should use - I didn't see any reference in WP:GAB. b) you are agreeing that "sexual predation, in most civilized countries, is a crime"? I've never heard of such a thing before, nor can I find any reference to this in either Canadian or UK law; or in the dictionary. There's nothing criminal about predators or predatory - businesses and people are predatory by nature, taking advantage of opportunity and weakness; it's sexual offenders that are criminals, not predators - for what teenage boy isn't predatory? Nfitz (talk) 17:29, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
  • If you're really going so far as to make the bizarre, pedantic argument that "being a sexual predator isn't a crime", therefore it's okay to label people as sexual predators, then it's clear that you have some sort of much more serious problem competently adhering to BLP than even I thought. In any case, I'm not going to argue whether or not or why your comments were a BLP violation, if you're actually unable to understand after everyone's comments above, there's really not much more than can even be said, and a very glaring competence issue at play. The block and underlying reasons have been explained to you, and are not negotiable. If you are not okay with this being the way Wikipedia works, then this is not the project for you. Swarm 17:58, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Just to be clear, I don't actually believe you're incompetent. I think you just let your behavior get out of control and now you're trying to argue your way out of the block, arguing that you did nothing wrong, or that the block wasn't well-reasoned to you. However it's not going to fly this time. Like I said, BLP is non-negotiable, and the sooner you accept that, and modify your behavior, the better. We will not allow you to use Wikipedia as a forum any longer, and we will not tolerate BLP violations. Swarm 18:41, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
  • If I was arguing about the POS comments, which I knew I was skirting the issue (but was well documented), you'd might have a point about trying to argue myself out of a block. But to be perfectly honest, it didn't even cross my mind that discussing Bill Clinton as a sexual predator could be a BLP violation, given that it's not criminal (I have no idea where that meme is coming from), and how widely the issue has been discussed. The President of the United States of America himself went on record and said Bill Clinton was the worst abuser of women to ever sit in the Oval Office. He was a predator . There is no end of headlines to this effect, such as Bill Clinton is a sexual predator: Donald Trump (I'll save you the many more, can we just take that as written). And this isn't new, over 3 years ago, Rand Paul noted that [Bill Clinton a sexual predator, Rand Paul says]. I assume this is all about Clinton, given Trump's past history, comments, and admissions going back over a decade - not to mention Vice-President Biden went on the record last year and said that Biden: Trump is 'sexual predator' but Bill Clinton conduct 'shouldn't matter' Donald Trump ... has acknowledged that he has been a sexual predator.. So I assume this is really about Clinton; but hang on - I wasn't the one that made the Clinton comment; go back, someone made it - with references, and I simply agreed, adding many other dead Presidents ... and Trump.
There's two issues here. The primary one is that the predatory nature of the individual in question is well documented, and the phrase is used, by the most important people in the world. And then secondly the alleged criminal aspect - when it's quite clear a sexual predator isn't necessarily criminal (though it doesn't preclude criminal activity). Would you ever say a cougar wasn't a sexual predator - that's pretty much the definition - but I've never seen anyone call something between two consenting adults criminal (well, not since the famous There’s no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation back in 1967 from a future world leader). Nfitz (talk) 19:41, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
PS. Was looking at definitions for 'cougar'. Oddly missing from the OED (other than the mammal), presumably because that entry hasn't been updated in near 30 years. But it is in Wiktionary, where it says (wikt:cougar). (Canada, US, slang) An older woman who actively seeks the casual, often sexual, companionship of younger men, by implication a femalesexual predator”. This matches my understanding of the meaning of cougar and sexual predator - and clearly many, if not most, sexual predators aren't criminals. Nfitz (talk) 21:43, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
As others have mentioned, you need to take a long hard read of WP:BLP as no where does it say only accusations of criminal behaviour are a problem. Frankly you probably should stop replying before you talk yourself into a longer block. At the very least, I'm strongly suggesting you stay away from any BLPs, or mentioning any living persons in any of your comments from now on both now and when you're unblocked, if ever. Yes accusing someone of a crime is a more serious BLP violation (generally) and you weren't the only one to bring it up but ultimately arguing over the definition of a sexual predator and when it is and isn't a crime isn't going to help you in any way, it's only going to cause more problems. Nil Einne (talk) 04:58, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
Probably you should also reread WP:NOTAFORUM as you seem to think it's okay to use wikipedia as a place to discuss and express your own personal opinions of people (and I guess other stuff). It's not. There's some limited tolerance of comments which is forumish and not related to improving wikipedia, but in BLP cases this is very limited. Especially when the content is often seen as highly negative, regardless of who else has said it. (That said, someone who keep saying all the time that Trump is the best president of all time who is going to make America great again is going to have problems eventually.) Nil Einne (talk) 05:05, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
(EC) As a final comment, in case you still don't understand, this means it's generally okay to discuss in an appropriate talk page whether or not to include the words of Campbell or Biden or whoever on whoever. It's not okay for you to go around repeating them all over the place, whether in your own words or quoting the other person. This means BTW that calling someone either a sexual predator or a piece of shit is a problem. In a very limited cases, especially when what you're saying is in wikipedia voice in the article, it's generally okay to mention something. E.g. it's not likely you'll have problems for saying Rodney Alcala is a serial killer. (Although if you keep bringing it up in irrelevant contexts you may have problems probably more for NOTAFORUM and/or soapboxing reasons depending on the context than BLP.) But if in doubt, just don't do it. And given you don't seem to have any inkling of what is and isn't acceptable, you probably should just never do it. P.S. As has already been mentioned to you, the purpose of talk page access while blocked is to allow unblock requests so really you shouldn't reply. Still while not an admin, I personally wouldn't advocate blocking you for a reply unless your comment itself is problematic since I don't think it's fair that you have no right of reply (one of the reasons posting on a blocked editors TP can be a problem), even if I haven't said anything that IMO really need reply. I'm not likely to be reading the response anyway, and actually maybe don't bother pinging me. Frankly I probably shouldn't have come back, but I admit I was nosey since I got the feeling getting through to you was going to be difficult, one of the reasons I posted even though I wasn't actually saying anything new, and was wondering if I was right. Your responses were though worse than even I expected. I'm not sure if any of this is going to get through to you but it really needs to since as I've said, if you keep up at it you should expect your time here to be short. P.P.S. Seems you've lost TP access. I'll post this anyway since while your responses have been bad, they don't seem to indicate to me that it's a case of you need to be left alone to cool down, rather you need to understand how we do things here on wikipedia. I hope I'm right and this doesn't make things worse for you. Sorry if it does. Nil Einne (talk) 06:11, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I thought I had sufficiently made my point but it appears you didn't take in anything anyone said. Your above comment exemplifies the exact reason you were blocked, and I addressed this issue to begin with. "But I'm undoubtedly right, and it's well documented" may justify you holding that view, and it may justify you expressing and arguing that view on virtually any forum where free discourse is permitted. However, this is not that type of forum. This is not a forum. This is an encyclopedia, and no contentious or negative labels of any kind are permitted to be applied to any living person, as a matter of strict policy. Like I said, I may completely understand and agree with what you're saying, so doubling down on how "right" your comments are isn't going to address the issue. It's the fact that you made them at all on this project. I will humor your continued insistence that "sexual predator" does not equal "criminality". If you must be so pedantic, you're technically right, "sexual predator" can have widely varying interpretations. However, let's not pretend the term, in its common usage, is not universally held to have a negative connotation, ranging from morally corrupt deviancy of the first order, to outright sexual criminality. Users are allowed to access their talk page during a block in order to appeal and discuss the block. Since you insist on continuing to use your talk page as a forum to state opinions that constitute BLP violations, it's clear that the block is not having the intended preventative effect, and you leave me no choice but to revoke your talk page access. Given the complete lack of acknowledgment of the very serious policy you insist on disregarding, as well as your continued BLP violations since the block was issued, I've extended your block to a week. After that, this needs to stop. Yes, I mean permanently. No, I'm not overreacting, and no, this is not excessive. Most of Wikipedias rules are flexible, the imposition of most blocks is flexible, but BLP is a hard line, particularly when it comes to longtime users who have no excuse. If you return to this project and continue to violate this policy, your next block may well be indefinite. Swarm 05:11, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

7 Day Block for BLP violation and Revocation of Talk Page Access - August 9[edit]

Stop hand
Your ability to edit this talk page has been revoked as an administrator has identified your talk page edits as inappropriate and/or disruptive.

(block logactive blocksglobal blocksautoblockscontribs deleted contribsabuse filter logcreation log change block settingsunblockcheckuser (log))


If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you should read the guide to appealing blocks, then contact administrators by submitting a request to the Unblock Ticket Request System. If the block is a CheckUser or Oversight block, was made by the Arbitration Committee or to enforce an arbitration decision (arbitration enforcement), or is unsuitable for public discussion, you should appeal to the Arbitration Committee.
Please note that there could be appeals to the unblock ticket request system that have been declined leading to the post of this notice.

 Swarm 05:12, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

First Unblock Request (UTRS) - August 9[edit]

Orologio blu.svg
This blocked user is asking that their block be reviewed on the Unblock Ticket Request System:

Nfitz (block logactive blocksglobal blocksautoblockscontribs deleted contribsabuse filter logcreation log change block settingsunblockcheckuser (log))


UTRS appeal #18946 was submitted on Aug 09, 2017 07:48:53. This review is now closed.


--UTRSBot (talk) 07:48, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

UTRS Unblock Form[edit]

Why do you believe you should be unblocked?

There's never been any BLP violation edits by me in Mainspace, or Mainspace talk. There's no danger to the project itself. This is merely a dispute about exactly what is a BLP violation. (which could have been dealt with better by all parties)

After some confusion, the reason for the block appears to simply be "no contentious or negative labels of any kind are permitted to be applied to any living person, as a matter of strict policy".

Reviewing the BLP policy (WP:PUBLICFIGURE), I should have said "REDACTED was alleged to have been a REDACTED", rather than "REDACTED is a REDACTED" and "Many prominent people have called REDACTED a REDACTED of REDACTED" rather than "REDACTEDis a REDACTED of REDACTED". (sure would have been nice if someone had simply pointed this out calmy in the first place rather than all the drama).

I would assume that given REDACTED prominently admitted years ago he was a REDACTED (long before Donald Trump and Billy Bush recording), and this has been very well documented, that the word alleged is not necessary. (for example see [9]. Though I'm willing to take guidance on this detail.

I'm a little dubious about the block extension and talk page rights removal, I think for this edit as all the comments about him being a REDACTED were either quotes from respectable public figures, newspaper headlines, or imbedded in the URLs Though now that User:Swarm has clearly defined the reason for the block, I can at least see the point - and once unblocked, there is no reason for me to be quoting such documents.

Though to be honest, I'm not entirely convinced that quoting major public figures, and mainstream newspaper headlines, should be a BLP violation, if it's clear that's what they are. But I'm willing to not do that, if the consensus IS in that direction.

If you are unblocked, what articles do you intend to edit?

The same ones I've been editing for years. Generally local stuff Canadian stuff, and football (real football not the North American variety). Of course, I'll fix any error when I see it - in this case, I had merely tried to fix a broken reference, and stumbled into some bizarre and highly toxic WP:BATTLEGROUND the likes of which I've never seen before. (I seldom touch foreign politics)

Current (but moving slowly) projects include trying to rehabilitate the Nauru national soccer team article (currently in my sandbox - and it may not be rehabilitatable, but does require some tough research - I was about to ask if someone could give my library access to assist in that - but I just realised, that's it's really easy to request it online ... no reason I can't work on that project wh

I've been touching (and occasionally very much expanding and rewriting) BLP articles for over a decade, without any complaints of BLP violations (except of perhaps the most technical nature ... i.e. lack of sourcing for mundane stuff, that is quickly fixed).

Why do you think there is a block currently affecting you? If you believe it's in error, tell us how.

I was blocked for noting in WP:ANI that surely it was common knowledge that REDACTED (and REDACTED) were REDACTED, among many other but dead REDACTED. diff.

This was in response to an earlier comment by another user, who felt there was a double standard, noting that if they had said "REDACTED is a REDACTED" (providing 3 references supporting that statement). diff.

(ironically, I seem to have proven him right - but that's another issue).

The exact issue of how this is a BLP violation has been a bit of a moving target, with unfortunately some admins saying one thing, however the blocking admin User:Swarm has clarified the reason for the block is simply because under no circumstance " no contentious or negative labels of any

(ran out of space)

Is there anything else you would like us to consider when reviewing your block?

A much bigger issue here, that no one has touched, is that I managed to ten times in about 36 hours refer to REDACTED as an expletive without getting blocked.

However, a single occasion agreeing with someone else that REDACTED was a REDACTED (which in my mind is far more verifiable and well documented - heck the person I agreed with provided references), got a block and universal condemnation in about 90 minutes.

It's very apparent that making a borderline comment about a well loved United States Democrat is treated very, very differently to a well loved United States Republican.

I was quite surprised by the difference. And I must reluctantly conclude that there's a huge WP:BIAS problem here in Wikipedia - something I've been denying previously. And for all the fuss and drama about this whole tempest in a teapot - the bias is a much more serious real issue.

If these are indeed both WP:BLP violations, then the reaction to making vulgar comments about an populist right wing leader with little support from the general demographic that can be found at Wikipedia should be larger than simply pointing out the well documented flaws of a much loved by the (REDACTED at least) demographic that tends be attracted to this type of project.

Which I suppose, ironically, means I'm actually saying that I should have been blocked much, much, earlier (though someone calmly pointing to WP:PUBLICFIGURE and saying read the second example would have ended this nightmare a long time ago - good grief, it's not like one can memorize all rules - which do appear to change from time to time. ). Quite frankly, I have no idea how to address this issue. I'm far too blunt to front anything.

(I'm having some issues completing the boxes above. I've not been able to complete two of them, and then they seem to stop working).

Thanks for your time, sorry if this is a bit verbose.

UTRS Email Response - August 9[edit]

Hello nfitz,

This unblock request serves to convince me not only that unblocking you would not be in the best interests of the project, but that the original block was actually far too lenient. It appears that you fundamentally misunderstand WP:BLP, and to that end, I have changed the block settings on your account - you are now blocked indefinitely, and will remain so until you can adequately demonstrate a sufficient understanding of WP:BLP.

Yunshui
English Wikipedia Administrator

Indefinite Block for Fundamentally Not Comprehending BLP Policy as Evidenced By Bragging[edit]

After reviewing the UTRS ticket linked above, I have come to the conclusion that you are fundamentally unable to comprehend the WP:BLP policy. The fact that your unblock request actively boasted of how effectively you had been able to flout the policy is enough for me to have serious concerns about your ability to edit Wikipedia in accordance with the rules. I have therefore modified this to an indefinite block, unblocking being conditional on the demonstration of an adequate understanding of BLP. Yunshui  14:49, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Email from Nfitz to Indefinite Blocking Admin[edit]

This was sent shortly after the unblock request, but lead to the admin removing his talk page block before the block unrequest below was considered Nfitz (talk) 08:07, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for considering my unblock request.

Sorry to email you about this - I'm not quite sure how the procedure works. I submitted a second unblock request, but I don't know if it goes to you automatically, or get's routed to someone not yet involved.

Basically it says I was not boasting. (it's not in my nature - I don't think anyone has ever even accused me of that before). I expressed my final comments about getting away with so many insults of a █████████, compared to merely agreeing to one about a ████████, not as a boast, but because having only just realized the implications of [[WP:Public Figure]] that it suddenly dawned on me that perhaps some of the bias I've heard some on the right-wing make about Wikipedia being systemically biased to the Left, may actually be true. (though I've never claimed to understand foreign politics ... I don't even see how one thinks that either ███████ or █████ are actually ████ ████, given how ████████████ their ███████ are! Which is a good reason, I generally avoid the area (all I was trying to do was fix a broken reference ... sigh)

Sigh, it's almost as if someone like me who actually takes the process seriously, and makes sure they ask questions about the issue to understand it properly, so they CAN contribute constructively in the future, have a tougher time in this process than those who simply haven't gotten it, and say whatever needs to be said, to slip off the hook. Which is pretty clear from my edit and block history - that I simply don't do. I'd sooner hang, than admit to something I didn't do.

But I did actually do it here, and I've understood it, admitted it, and it's pretty clear from my edit history that I won't deliberately repeat it. As such, I don't see why the block should not now be lifted. And until that point, I don't see why talk page access shouldn't be restored, given that I now understand what was objectionable about my content.

Email from Indefinate Blocking Admin Restoring Talk Page Access[edit]

I'm unwilling to lift this particular block based on a personal email, due to the number of other administrators involved. However, I have reinstated your access to edit your user talkpage, so that you can make another appeal there for an independant administrator to review. You've done this before and so I assume you know the format, but just in case you need them, the instructions can be found at WP:GAB

Sincerely,
Yunshui

Email From Nfitz to Original Blocking Admin Restoring Talk Page Access[edit]

Simultaneously, I had asked Swarm to at least restore talk page access ... Nfitz (talk) 08:11, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you see as part of this process.

Do you see my unblock requests? (no, I was not boasting ... but that's another department ...)

Sigh, it's almost as if someone like me who actually takes the process seriously, and makes sure they ask questions about the issue to understand it properly, so they CAN contribute constructively in the future, have a tougher time in this process than those who simply haven't gotten it, and say whatever needs to be said, to slip off the hook. Which is pretty clear from my edit and block history - that I simply don't do. I'd sooner hang, than admit to something I didn't do.

But I did actually do it here, and I've understood it, admitted it, and it's pretty clear from my edit history that I won't deliberately repeat it. As such, can you at least talk page access shouldn't be restored, given that I now understand what was objectionable about my content.

(though I think that we also meet the criteria of lifting the block altogether - but with the "boasting" wrinkle, I wouldn't think that is your call ...)

(though if you can't see my unblock requests, then the context isn't here - I can pass you my text if that helps)

No response was received by email. Lesson learned - simpler to not approach from different angles simultaneously - doesn't really save any time.Nfitz (talk) 08:11, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Second Unblock Request (UTRS) - August 9[edit]

Orologio blu.svg
This blocked user is asking that their block be reviewed on the Unblock Ticket Request System:

Nfitz (block logactive blocksglobal blocksautoblockscontribs deleted contribsabuse filter logcreation log change block settingsunblockcheckuser (log))


UTRS appeal #18949 was submitted on Aug 09, 2017 15:19:33. This review is now closed.


--UTRSBot (talk) 15:19, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Second UTRS Unblock Form[edit]

Why do you believe you should be unblocked?

I understand the piece of WP:BLP that I had previously failed to appreciate.

(WP:PUBLICFIGURE)

There's never been any BLP violation edits by me in Mainspace, or Mainspace talk. There's no danger to the project itself. This is about user talk space comments.

As previously noted, I will follow the guideline.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

If you are unblocked, what articles do you intend to edit?

The same ones I've been editing for years. Generally local stuff Canadian stuff, and football (real football not the North American variety). Of course, I'll fix any error when I see it - in this case, I had merely tried to fix a broken reference, and stumbled into some bizarre and highly toxic WP:BATTLEGROUND the likes of which I've never seen before. (I seldom touch foreign politics)

Current (but moving slowly) projects include trying to rehabilitate the Nauru national soccer team article (currently in my sandbox - and it may not be rehabilitatable, but does require some tough research - I was about to ask if someone could give my library access to assist in that - but I just realised, that's it's really easy to request it online ... no reason I can't work on that project wh

I've been touching (and occasionally very much expanding and rewriting) BLP articles for over a decade, without any complaints of BLP violations (except of perhaps the most technical nature ... i.e. lack of sourcing for mundane stuff, that is quickly fixed).      

Why do you think there is a block currently affecting you? If you believe it's in error, tell us how.

My previous failure to appreciate the implications of WP:PUBLICFIGURE

As I've now realized the implication, there is no risk of repetition - I think I've shown that in a dozen years of avoiding BLP issues.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

Is there anything else you would like us to consider when reviewing your block?

In an earlier unblock request User:Yunshi said that The fact that your unblock request actively boasted of how effectively you had been able to flout the policy ...

I was absolutely not boasting; this appears to be a complete misunderstanding of what I said in the final comment. Once I realized the implication of WP:PUBLICFIGURE I was surprised that it appears that it is applied much more vigorously when making similar comments about Democrats compared to Republicans. I was trying to alert Wikipedia to this issue, in an attempt to improve the project.      

Second UTRS Response - August 10[edit]

Hello nfitz,

Your talk page access has been restored, and further requests should be posted there.

Favonian
English Wikipedia Administrator

Commentary About Second UTRS Response[edit]

I just looked at UTRS: you should have an email from Favonian that was sent about 10 hours ago. only (talk) 21:08, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks - I assumed there'd be something here, and I don't tend to check my home email much once I go to work. Oh, there's a closure notice here, but no result - I missed that with Nil's contributions just afterwards. I haven't opened up my home email yet, but I assume it's negative, given I'm still blocked. (sorry to leave this hanging a bit ... I've already had one edit conflcit trying to post my IP Block question). Nfitz (talk) 21:21, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Oh, it's just a red tape response saying that because my talk page access was restored, that the second request is essentially voided, and I should submit a new request here. My gosh, I'm starting to appreciate why new editors just completely freak out when they are dragged into this Kafkian process - if I can't navigate a block after a decade, because I've misunderstood something, how is a new editor ever going to be able to get out of this process, without simply making up stories and promises of never doing "it" again. For a lack of a better word, the "Justice" system here, seems to be some bizarre attempt to implement WP:What Wikipedia is not! Nfitz (talk) 22:02, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Commentary From Others[edit]

Respect[edit]

Nfitz, I generally and genuinely respect you as an editor, and I appreciate the positive contributions you've made to the encyclopedia. But this has got to stop, at least for now. I'm not commenting in depth to the complicated matter at hand, just the fact that the community has spoken, made it clear that there are not willing to see it another way, but you are still bludgeoning the process. You could very well be "right" in this whole matter, but I promise you that your continued unblock requests and inability to hear others is making the community lose faith in your standing each time you do it, and it's now bordering on abuse, whether that was intentional or not. I know you can't reply here so I'm not trying to write anything that would seem off-base or require you to respond - I would just take a short Wikibreak (not that you have a choice) and come back clearheaded with your unblock request once this has blown over. In my opinion this is just getting worse and worse each time you try to relay your point (3 day block to 1 week block, then talk page access removed, now indef). Best of luck, and please remember - this isn't the end of the world! :) Garchy (talk) 15:46, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. You comment about my continued unblock requests - and yet I've only made two. I deliberately waited over a day before making the first one, so I could properly understand the issue at hand. As I did not agree or understand the reason for the block, there was no point making the request, as there's no chance I'd not repeat the mistake.
As I commented in the unblock request, I now understand the piece of WP:BLP that I had previously failed to appreciate (WP:PUBLICFIGURE). I also noted that if anyone had calmly pointed to WP:PUBLICFIGURE and said "read the second example", then this would have ended this nightmare a long time ago; I can read WP:BLP many times, but there's always something new to grasp - I'm somewhat suspicious it may have changed since I first joined the project. :)
So once I comprehended the issue (unless I've completely missed the boat here - which like most people, happens), it was easy to write an unblock request. The response to that was that I was boasting? This seems to be in response to my closing comment, which was not a boast at all (when have I ever done that, it's not in my nature), but was expressing a concern that everything I've denied for a long time about there not being a bias against the right-wing at Wikipedia, may actually be true. (and to put that in context, I'm pretty centrist, sometimes a bit left, sometimes a bit right ... and a bit right of centre here, means right of Sanders, but left of Obama - even our right-wing government here protects things like free healthcare and same-sex marriage, let alone the centre-right!)
The second (and only other) block unrequest is simply a clarification that there was no boasting, and that "Once I realized the implication of WP:PUBLICFIGURE I was surprised that it appears that it is applied much more vigorously when making similar comments about Democrats compared to Republicans. I was trying to alert Wikipedia to this issue, in an attempt to improve the project."
Sometimes, it's almost as if someone like me who actually takes the process seriously, and makes sure they ask questions about the issue to understand it properly, so they CAN contribute constructively in the future, have a tougher time in this process than those who simply haven't gotten it, and say whatever needs to be said, to slip off the hook. Why following instruction, trying to ask questions, and understand the issue is treated with so much negativity and suspicion - instead of kindness, patience, and NPOV, I don't know. Yeah, sure I should have figured out where I had erred earlier - but hindsight is always 20/20 - the point is that I didn't - and that's why we are here. Normally the concept is there's no such thing as a bad question; instead we get blame for the user, for not having comprehended something or accusations of playing dense. You know - sometimes I'm just dense ... as are most people. Why did I miss it - probably because it never crossed my mind that WP:BLP might ever trump WP:V, so I didn't read that as carefully as I should have. Nfitz (talk) 10:11, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
I don't know what your UTRS message that lead you your indef block says, and I'm frankly not interested but I think your final comment shows once again why you're having so many problems. You said you finally understand the issue. But then at the end you suggest this has something to do with BLP trumping Verifiability. Except this isn't the reason at all, and it doesn't really. We are more stringent with our Verifiability requirements, but that's about it, and verifiability isn't the core issue here. The simple fact is if you go around continuously saying that country A is shit or that Genghis Khan and all his generals were sexual predators, you're going to find yourself blocked, no matter that BLP isn't involved or whatever multitude of sources you come up with that say this or how widely accepted it is around your water cooler. If you want to be allowed back, you really need to read up again our core policies more carefully and think about them carefully. It's sounding a lot like the problem isn't just with BLP, but a fundamental lack of understanding of even our most basic principles and guidelines. I can only assume from all you've said that you think WP:V means you can say whatever you want wherever you want provided you can source it, whereas no it does not. I'll get back to something mentioned to you a while back. What you may or may not do at a water cooler, no matter how widely accepted it is, isn't germane to what is and isn't acceptable here at wikipedia. BLP means we're far stricter with people talking crap about living people but that doesn't mean it's allowed in other cases. (Likewise when it comes to articles, BLP means we're stricter but correctly attributing content rather than mentioning it in wikipedia voice, and expecting that it's covered multiple sources when it's something that should have multiple source if it's significant isn't unique to BLP.) BTW, if you do ever make it back and you see BLP problems relating to right wing individuals (well any of course in reality), please do try to correct them or bring them to the attention of the community. Do not think it's okay to violate BLP yourself because it balances out some perceived unfairness in how BLP violations affecting left wing individuals are dealt with compare to right wing ones. The way we resolve any bias like you cite is by dealing with BLP violations that are being missed, not by allowing BLP violations to slide. Nil Einne (talk) 11:26, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
P.S. Don't interpret my comment to mean that BLP isn't very important or that we aren't a lot more stringent with living people. It is and we are. Nil Einne (talk) 11:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments User:Nil Einne. When I get around to it, I'll post my two UTRS unblock requests here for full transparency. Actually, I do get it - once I grasped the BLP bit that had evaded me, the rest all falls into place. BTW, I never went around saying anything continuously! It was merely an acronym on a user talk page that lead to this. Once in 12 years of editing. Everything since then has simply been part of the discussion about the original edit - which I had wrongly assumed was fine, it itself. Without all this happening, I could have easily gone another decade without another reoccurrence (well maybe not given current world politics! :) ). However, now I realised what I'd not grasped - it could go a lot longer than a decade now (Hopefully I'll be unblocked by then!). Oh, and I never did an edit to balance out some perceived unfairness - nor would I; besides, I was blocked by the time I realised my previous denials of unfairness may have been ... unfair.
BTW, how long does this UTRS process take? We are pushing the 30-hour mark now, and I thought the second one was pretty cut-and-dried - one way or another. Not that there's any particular rush - I've wasted far too much time on this, this week, and need to do real work! Though I'm a little troubled I don't seem to be able to edit on my phone - are there different restrictions on blocking Users on mobile devices? Nfitz (talk) 20:43, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Don't be so impatient. In the real world the uterus process takes nine months. EEng 21:00, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Oh great, the peanut gallery. I'd make a comment about how one communicates to children and co-workers in the real world, compared to the very hierarchical 1800s model here ... but I'm not sure it would help my case! :) Nfitz (talk) 21:21, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
I'm just trying to lighten the mood a bit. The old Nfitz would have taken the opportunity to exhale for a moment. EEng 21:29, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
With all the fun drugs they have me on these days, you never know which Nfitz you are going to get on any given day (or middle of the night thanks to the extra Eugeroic drugs to counter the drowsiness effects of the first groups of drugs)! Word to the wise - don't get old. (no, nothing life-threatening - they quickly tested and cleared me for those ... could simply be sleep apnea ....). Fortunately health-care here is free, and the weed will hopefully get cheaper with the next round of NAFTA negotiatons. On the bright side, I can pull all-nighters like I was 16 ... but I seem to keep forgetting stuff - like going to check my email about that unblock requset (doh!). Seriously though, the levity is appreciated - even if I often get into trouble with it myself (no, levity wasn't a factor here - well, apart from the implication that the US must lift restrictions on marijuana sales, as it's impacting our domestic markets. Nfitz (talk) 21:52, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Non-Admin Comment following Second UTRS Unblock Response[edit]

(non-admin comment) Best thing you can do is stop editing your talk page while you are blocked. The purpose of your talk page during a block is to request unblocks or compromises. In particular, don’t mention anything about politics or biases in any manner. The only thing admins want to hear from you is that you know that your behavior was improper and that it will change. Anything else is a distraction. They don’t want to read walls of text. They just want to know that you are here to contribute and understand, believe in, and will follow the guidelines. And, I suggest that you not respond to this. It will be my only edit here while you are blocked. Just my opinion based upon observation. Objective3000 (talk) 00:06, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks User:Objective3000Yeah, someone said something similar the last time I was blocked, earlier this year - but I couldn't find any policy to support it; and it certainly seems very different to my understanding before that - and is in complete contradiction with leaving email open - which actually surprised me. Given my recent spectacular fail at reading WP:BLP properly, can someone point me to the guideline in question? I certainly don't want to confused someone to reivew. Quite frankly, if all they wanted to hear was that my behaviour was improper and it will change, then the first and second unblock requests were more than enough. I think we've both been here long enough to be aware that things don't work as advertised, and different sets of rules are being applied to different groups of people - which seems to be getting worse, and has now drifted into politics. I'm not sure if this is a function of Wikipedia, or the influence of the spectacular decline and failure of democracy in the nation that seems to be over-represented in the Admin area (I'd love to see a breakdown of admins per nation, and active editors per nation one day. Yes, I'm probably a little too verbose - ironically, this seems to be a side-effect of one of the first group of drugs - though I admit it only seems to worsen an existing condition :)
I too though want to keep the record clear. Which is why I haven't submitted a new unblock request today. I want to sort out the whole thing a bit, as it is a bit difficult to do now. Nfitz (talk) 01:45, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Nfitz (talk) 01:42, 11 August 2017 (UTC) This whole thing is getting somewhat annoying - I frequently use Wikipedia throughout the day as I'm working, and will often make tiny edits whenever I see a typo or something ... there's been two or three now I've not been able to change. And likely never will. Nfitz (talk) 01:42, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

  •  Comment: Nfitz, this must have been frustrating. What troubled me personally in both of the UTRS requests is that they were both seemingly contradictory to WP:BLPTALK. I've been following the discussion, and my understanding is that this has to do with NPOV without exceptions. If you can submit a new request addressing that concern, I'll be glad to review it. Regards, Alex ShihTalk 02:05, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Ah, yes. Hmm, no, I haven't fully considered that either. Though what does contentious actually mean. Debatable? Causing an argument? If you take that to the extreme - well we'd have to block most people who ever post to ANI for a start ... :) I don't think most people would find what I said contentious at all ... though it does seem to create consternation in one particularly country that I do not live in. Either way, I haven't got the time currently to put together a new request. Especially as I'm kind of adsorbed by the issue below! In fact unblocking me now, might actually make that issue tougher to resolve. If you have any thought on this outing as well, please chime in. @Alex Shih: Nfitz (talk) 02:35, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Concerns About Exposure of IP[edit]

Initial Observation of IP Block[edit]

Wait, I wasn't logged into my phone. It's the IP that's blocked. Hang on then how many of my IPs did you block? If you blocked the work one(s), you may have blocked dozens to thousands of users, depending on how our ever-changing internal network cache/firewall system is behaving this week. It doesn't draw a direct line to me, but it might allow someone with some creativity and abilty to check for recent blocks, to WP:DOX me. @Yunshui: @Swarm:. Nfitz (talk) 21:21, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Later Observation that Local Editors (Account and IP) Can Associate My User Name to IP Address[edit]

Oh no. This is worse than I thought. I've been outed!. I need oversight asap. I noticed if I try and edit while not logged in, I get a message

A user of this IP address was blocked by Swarm for the following reason (see our blocking policy)
Autoblocked because your IP address was recently used by "Nfitz". The reason given for Nfitz's block is: "reinstating talkpage access based on private email".
This block has been set to expire: 22:27, 11 August 2017. The block ID is: 7723353.

Even worse, I've just confirmed that every computer in the office shows the same IP. This means that if anyone in my workplace tries an anonymous edit, they'll probably realize who I am. How can this be? Can this be remedied asap? I'm not sure if it's just the dozens of users here, or the thousands in the country - I don't know which IPs have been blocked, or how our network is currently configured. @Yunshui: @Swarm: @Drmies:

Here is the unblock template recommended for use on the IP page. I'm not using it there, or identifying the IP for obvious reasons.

{{unblock-auto|2=Autoblocked because your IP address was recently used by "Nfitz". The reason given for Nfitz's block is: "reinstating talkpage access based on private email".|3=Swarm|4=7723353}}

I'll email oversight as well. How can this happen - surely this has come up before? Nfitz (talk) 02:20, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I just thought of something. What do other logged in users with this IP see? Not having any other accounts, I don't know. Okay, I'm about to do something that breaks all the rules, and invoke WP:IAR and create a second account called User:nfitz2. I'll only log in, and won't actually do any edits, and see what happens. Please don't block this until I can post further in a few minutes. Nfitz (talk) 02:38, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Actually, I did create a sandbox. But as soon as I tried to log into that nfitz2 account from my regular machine (nfitz2 was created by remote desktopping into a different machine in a different city, which is actually on a different internal network), with the blocked IP, I also could no longer edit, and my nfitz username was shown. This means that anyone who tries to edit Wikipedia from within my office can see the block. This is not good at all. Help. Heading home shortly, so you'll see some IP variance. Nfitz (talk) 02:50, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Alex Shih removed the autoblock, so no one's getting that message anymore. Now please, go home and get some REST. EEng 02:56, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Yes, he emailed me, and I've tested successfully. (I'm okay actually - but I didn't wake until 10 hours ago ...). But I was going to leave shortly. Running some updates on hardware.
Bigger question is, is this supposed to work this way? There's some huge implications here. (which fortunately, I don't have to lose sleep over!). Nfitz (talk) 03:03, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
I have to admit it's a hole in the IP-identity veil that I'm surprised to see exists. Plenty of experienced people are no doubt watching here who can give the question attention if needed. EEng 03:06, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
And speaking now as a friend, I think it will be a good idea if you don't post any more at all tonight -- not even to respond to this post I'm making now. Things will seem different in the morning, I promise. EEng 03:12, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I'm ... surprised ... as well. If I wasn't very well versed in debugging, I think I'd have made a bannable comment by now! :) Thanks ... this isn't near the top of my list of real-world concerns (or else I'd have gone to check that email faster!). Thanks User:Alex Shih for dealing with that issue so efficiently and quickly! Nfitz (talk) 03:31, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Communication with Oversight[edit]

Initial Request[edit]
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 02:54:28 +0000
Subject: Copy of your message to Oversight: Help, I've been outed by the blocking process

Please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nfitz#Urgent_-_Outed

Help!
Response from Oversight[edit]
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 09:39:46 +0000
Subject: Re: [Ticket#201708111000████] Help, I've been outed by the blocking process

Dear Nfitz,

The edits associated with your request cannot be suppressed under our policy as no outing has taken place, as has been explained in replied on your talk page. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Oversight>. If you think this matter needs attention from administrators or editors, please visit the appropriate noticeboard (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Noticeboards>). 

Sincerely,

The English Wikipedia Oversight team


-- 
English Wikipedia Oversight
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Oversight
---
Disclaimer: all mail to this address is answered by volunteers, and responses are not to be considered an official statement of Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation.
Response to Oversight[edit]
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:08:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [Ticket#201708111000████] Help, I've been outed by the blocking process

I agree that there is nothing now to suppress, once autolock is disabled. (and besides, I'm now unblocked).

And while under the policy, no outing has taken place, by definition, and everything behaved as designed ... there is still an issue.

[[WP:Autoblock]] clearly says that:

"The only circumstances in which a user may be associated with an IP address, are certain policy violations detailed by the checkuser policy"

However, during the 2-3 days earlier this week, a user (me) was associated with an IP address (our entire office), for anyone in our office, who chose to try and edit a document (whether logged in or not).  So while I've not been outed, by the definition of [[WP:DOX]], I've still been outed, by the English-language definition. And the how the system is functioning, and designed, may not be as originally intended. i.e. there maybe a systemic issue.

However, this probably isn't an oversight issue. Nor do I particularly want to publish it widely.

Can you advise an appropriate avenue? Keeping in mind that I'm right off a controversial block, and I think there's some that will shoot the messenger, before hearing the message.

Thanks, █████████
Response from Oversight[edit]
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 05:12:40 +0000
Subject: Re: [Ticket#201708111000████] Help, I've been outed by the blocking process

Dear █████████████@████████████,

If you really feel strongly about it, you can discuss it at the talk page of the Blocking policy: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy> 

However, given your recent behaviour on the site, you may want to think twice pushing this kind of pedantic button.  Your block was repeatedly confirmed to be legitimate, and many years of experience have led to the standardization of blocking accounts with autoblock turned on, due to the frequency of angry users trying to continue editing by creating additional accounts, or just not logging in. There is no indication that any other person was affected by the block. 

This request is now closed, and no further responses are likely, as this is not an Oversight issue.

Sincerely,

The English Wikipedia Oversight team

-- 
English Wikipedia Oversight
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Oversight
---
Disclaimer: all mail to this address is answered by volunteers, and responses are not to be considered an official statement of Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation.
Response to Oversight[edit]
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 05:32:06 -0000
Subject: Re: [Ticket#201708111000████] Help, I've been outed by the blocking process

I do see that there is a conflict between a clear policy, and how it has been enacted. And while in my case, no harm was done, I do fear that it may cause a real problem for someone one day if not remedied. It would be remiss of me to not raise the issue.

I can't believe that no other person has, or will ever be, effected by such a block! Even if the blocking process isn't changed, there is no reason for the block message to link the IP to the username.

I do object however, to this being characterized as a "pedantic" button, given the possibility of great harm; it's hardly a minor detail. Besides, to most people, the entire project is nothing but an exercise in pedantry! :)

I also object to the to the reference to my "recent behaviour". There is no shame in being ignorant - and now I have learned something. Anyone who thinks that there is shame in being ignorant, is an ignorant fool, who fails to learn from their mistakes.

nfitz

Claim of Overreaction[edit]

  • This is an overreaction. Autoblocks are, by default, automatic for any and all blocks. We don't just block an account, the related IPs (all of which are logged) are blocked as well, obviously, to prevent block evasion. You are as responsible for the autoblock as you are for the block on your account. It was obviously working exactly as intended, having prevented an attempt at logged-out editing from your workplace. Outing is the exposure of a user's identity or personal information on Wikipedia. That simply didn't happen. No personal information of yours was divulged by the autoblock, period. In fact, if you click that first link, this very scenario is provided as an example of how an autoblock would typically work (i.e. a user's work IP being autoblocked and a coworker discovering the block). There are no "huge implications" here, in spite of the fact that autoblocking is news to you. If one of your coworkers was caught up in the autoblock, they would not know anything about the owner of the blocked account...without you having willfully revealed your own personal information. In other words, your coworkers would not know it was you unless you already outed yourself. Look, Nfitz, this is a trifling distraction, and the fact that you've thrown yet another tantrum to get your IPs unblocked rather than properly resolving the actual issue certainly does not appear to be helping your prospects of being unblocked. You've had your talk page access restored, but you still haven't issued a block appeal, apparently due to some sort of confusion on policy. That's fine, but keep the comments from here on out related to your unblock request. You will still have your talk page access disabled again if you do not do so. We're not asking you to jump through impossible hoops to get unblocked. You literally just have to read the GAB to know what you need to do. If you have any specific questions about BLP, feel free to ask, but we're not going to get caught up debating semantics such as "what does 'contentious' even mean?". You've already gotten yourself an indefinite block due to doubt about your competence. The onus is now on you to prove the doubt about your competence wrong. You will only do that by showing us that you wholly understand WP:BLP. If you are unable or unwilling to do that, you can choose to permanently commit to the permanent game of whack-a-mole that is block evasion. Swarm 05:44, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Tantrum? You really think that was a tantrum User:Swarm? Please WP:AGF, remember the Golden Rule, be polite. Do not intentionally make misrepresentations and apologise if you inadvertently do so.
No, I'm not actually overly familiar with the Autoblock - I've only been briefly blocked before, on a weekend, overnight, or while on parental leave. Yes WP:Autoblock is an interesting page; I've never had reason to read it before. On one hand you are correct, it does seem to be working as intended. On the other hand, the page also says The only circumstances in which a user may be associated with an IP address, are certain policy violations detailed by the checkuser policy - and the text on the page that those in my office did associate an IP address to a user (and with some various tests of other offices machines remotely, I do think that it's only the machines in our one office sharing that problematic IP). How what happened doesn't violate that statement I don't know.
And while I've taken some care to use a false name, and not provide any particular identifying information, or gender, over the 12-year editing history, and tried to avoid pages directly related to my narrow area of expertise, it's pretty easy to figure out my location and interests, and perhaps other places I've lived. The very fact I've been here for 12 years eliminates almost half the office, unless they were editing Wikipedia when they were 11. A couple more are eliminated by my fluency. A couple more are gone because they'd never been to my country when I started editing. A couple more are currently on vacation, 1 is on parental leave. 6 more are eliminated by backtracking the IP and knowing that they aren't routed through that proxy for security reasons (everyone knows which group doesn't have to use the proxy that drives the rest of us crazy). And that leaves 2 of us. Just looking at the edit times, you can tell which one I am - most people know which one is suffering from insomnia, and which one has a schedule like clockwork. Heck, you don't even have to start looking at which articles I've touched! So yet, I've been outed - and now I'm wondering why the top security person for a 10,000 person corporation, who just happens to have recently moved to our office, gave me a funny look this morning. And no, I have not willfully revealed my own personal information (it's not like you'll ever find many educated professionals in this entire city that don't share my beliefs about the 2 individuals who brought me down this path!). Thanks for the victim blaming though - that does indeed help to resolve the whole situation.
And how have I done this to get my IPs unblocked? I even asked further up NOT to unblock me, so that I could check further the implications.
You say It was obviously working exactly as intended, having prevented an attempt at logged-out editing from your workplace.. No actually, it stopped my from trying to edit my talk page from my mobile without having logged in properly - gosh. Later I realised I wasn't logged in, and I mentioned this above. About 5 hours later, I was about to go home, and I thoughts I'd check it out properly at the office, and realised the situation. There was no intent or attempt to edit anything other than my talk page (and that nfitz2 sandbox later on, as noted above). But thanks for WP:AGF. Have I ever shown any sign of using block evasion before? My own home IP changes everytime it reboots (as long as I don't use the company laptop, that still goes for that proxy) - I've always had the ability to easily do a small edit somewhere if I wanted to. Go scour my history - it's never happened (though I've certainly have done occasional IP edits, when not blocked, either because they were so trivial, I forgot to login, or something.
I've read both BLP and GAB and several other documents, probably much more seriously than I expect most people who have been blocked. To suggest there's a competence issue - that I can't read a document, and interpret the meaning, context, and implications, is laughable, considering that it's not only what my long education mostly consisted of, but has also been most of my over quarter-century quite successful career. Between my IPs, my email, my name, it's not difficult for any admin with access to IPs (is that only checkusers?) to figure out who I am, google me and confirm that I'm describing my education and career correctly (not that it needs to be done). Does it mean I don't make mistakes - gosh no - I make lots of mistakes. Everyone does - except perhaps those you are still too young to realize it yet ... and Wikipedia Admins perhaps ... and The Stig - I think we can all agree that The Stig doesn't make any mistakes.
You say that if I have any specific questions about BLP, feel free to ask - So I will assume good faith, and ask you a specific question:
"What does contentious actually mean in this context. Debatable? Causing an argument? If you take that to the extreme - well we'd have to block most people who ever post to ANI for a start."
You say I haven't issued a block unrequest yet. And yet I've already done two. I was literally half-way through my first one, when you yanked my talk page privileges - though maybe that's for the best, because in all honesty, I was missing the point still. Following that, in two consecutive days, I issued two though UTRS. The first one was rejected and the block extended from 1 week to indefinite, on the claim I was bragging - which is absolutely untrue (did someone forget about fortnights, months, and 6-months?). How this meets the standard for a preventative block I don't know, given it took me over a decade to walk into this landmine, I don't know. I have no idea why you think that there's any chance to repeat this, given my very clear assurances in the block unrequests. And the second block unrequest sat there until the talk page access was restored, and then put aside without being considered.
There's enough information already provided in the two unblock requests, if one doesn't want to be pedantic or didactic. WP:BLPTALK is a bit of a red herring, as rigorously applying WP:PUBLICFIGURE (and maybe even WP:BLPCRIME) will catch it anyway.
It won't be fair for yet another uninvolved admin to come in and deal with this mess. I want to tidy up the talk page before doing the unblock request, as I've already noted above (no, I won't delete anything that's here). And carefully and considerably write the block unrequest. I just don't have the time to do this now. Nor am I likely to find it tomorrow. And my Saturday is pretty booked already. So quite frankly, it's going to be Sunday at this stage. (ironically, it would be faster if you yanked my talk page access again, as I couldn't clean the place up first, and 90% of the unblock request would then be recycled from the never considered second one!)
And quite frankly, I'm becoming increasingly jaded. I've been complaining for years about admins, who simply think they can ignore WP:5P4, and then have a tantrum if a mere user reciprocates. And as far as I can tell, it's getting worse. And I really don't get this, because they all seem very good at WP:5P2 - writing the actual project from a NPOV. But some seem incapable of actually dealing with real people from a NPOV. I may find a better way to spend my Sunday, if it's a nice day, than appealing to a self-appointed plutocracy and jumping through not a hoop, but an ever moving goal post. I'll jump through that goal post one day, on a day of my choosing. In the meantime, there are plenty of ways I can still contribute to Wikipedia, that this block doesn't cover, without playing whack-a-mole.
In the meantime, I am understanding how WP:Why is Wikipedia losing contributors - Thinking about remedies. Nfitz (talk) 08:51, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Dealing with this kind of drama, and with people who don't understand BLP violations, with people who can't or won't read and simply accuse others of things they haven't done, yeah, that may be why some people get tired of dealing with Wikipedia. Please don't actually try jumping through a goal post, unless you're a neutrino. Now, if you can find the time to write all this up, surely you can find three minutes to write an unblock request. Drmies (talk) 12:15, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  • The drama would have been greatly diminished if you hadn't have actually given the incorrect answer for the first question I posted at the beginning of the original 3-day block, which the blocking admin later corrected. The issue isn't the 3 minutes to write the request, but, as has been pointed out, understanding WP:BLP. I just copied it to Word, using a typical 11pt single-spaced Arial font. It's 17 pages and 6,400 words. Personally, I can't read that in 3 minutes, let alone think about it and adsorb it.Nfitz (talk) 17:23, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  •  Comment: Nfitz, the wall of text was really unnecessary, but my offer still stands. Best of luck. Alex ShihTalk 14:54, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Perhaps, but I do tire of having to deal with people who treat the bullet points at WP:EQ as a to do list on how to manipulate a user into a transgression, almost making me question my own sanity. Nfitz (talk) 17:23, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  • On the contrary, I would consider this entire episode, from the original offending comments, to your most recent wall of text, to be a tantrum. That is not an insult intended to solicit a reaction, merely an honest observation. In the context of blocked users I've dealt with, your behavior in response to what was a originally a warning is certainly unreasonable, and that same behavior is what's solely responsible for escalating a warning to an indefinite block. It's really not that difficult to submit an acceptable unblock request. Any person can be unblocked after simply showing administrators that they have educated themselves on the relevant policies. Rather than doing that, you've unleashed torrents and torrents of commentary, continuing to claim that you're a victim of unfair treatment (and failing to comprehend the considerable leeway given to you), failing to heed any of the endless reasonable explanations provided to you, making a big kerfuffle over a run-of-the-mill autoblock, writing paragraphs upon paragraphs of text, all while claiming that you simply cannot find the time to read over a single policy and deduce the simple concept that "words can have consequences, so you can't just say whatever you want". You're not being treated unfairly, Nfitz. Quite frankly, you're still being extended an exceptional level of patience due to the fact that you are established. Swarm 05:48, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I don't see how your "observations" about tantrums is constructive. I've submitted two perfectly fine unblock requests, that did not include torrents and torrents of commentary. I pleaded guilty to all charges, except the charge that I was bragging which got the indefinite block (yeah, I guess I am claiming the charge about bragging was unfair - but I copped to the BLP issues - and isn't that the point?).
You imply I'm doing something odd, rather than simply submitting a 3-minute long unblock request. And yet WP:Guide to appealing blocks clearly says It's important that you understand the reasons why the administrator blocked you 'before' starting an unblock request. ... Before requesting to be unblocked, you can ask the administrators that blocked you any clarification about their actions, and they're expected to answer them, though first you have to read the policies they have linked as the reason for the block. As I noted, I haven't fully got my head around WP:BLPTALK which Alex Shih expressed concern about. Nfitz (talk) 07:01, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
You said you would answer simple questions. I figured that I'd ask one or two simple questions to figure out a couple of details, that still are challenging me a bit, and write an unblock request. But you didn't answer the simple question? It's not really that difficult to answer a simple question.Nfitz (talk) 07:01, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Simple questions can be asked in one or two sentences, as demonstrated by your own self below. Since the initial block, you've clearly dedicated an exceptionally significant amount of time to writing paragraphs upon paragraphs of text that no administrator has perceived as relevant or helpful, while also ignoring the significant amount of text that has already been provided to you by administrators in return. As an administrator who has logged nearly a thousand blocking actions, I can confidently tell you that this is exceptionally "odd" behavior, to say the absolute least. Swarm 07:01, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Talkpage Access Removed Again - August 12, 2017[edit]

I have removed this again as you are only digging yourself in further. You have had enough explanations. There are policy pages you can read. Your next step is to post an unblock request. Until you are ready to do that you do not need your page. I left email enabled so it should be straightforward to request page access when you are ready to post an unblock. Until then it doesn't serve your purposes to continuing relitigate the meaning of the policy. Any admin can review and revoke this action at their discretion. Spartaz Humbug! 07:20, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

First Email Request to Restore Talkpage Access[edit]

Email from Nfitz[edit]
There has been no relitigating the meaning of the policy since before I filed my first unblock request.

I am allowed to ask questions about the policy before my unblock request to increase/confirm my understanding.

I've just spent 40 minutes cleaning up the formatting of this, to make it much easier to follow, in preparation for an unblock request which is now a massive edit conflict.

Please restore talk page access. I have done nothing to abuse this since it was restored
Response[edit]
  • Nfitz - I have seen your email. Clearly you don't agree with my interpretation. All I require is confirmation that you are ready to post your unblock request. That, and nothing else. Spartaz Humbug! 09:52, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Second Email Request to Restore Talkpage Access[edit]

Email from Nfitz[edit]
My understanding is that I am to understand the reasons why the administrator blocked me before starting an unblock request. And the reason why is not having an adequate understand of BLP.

In particular the blocking admin yesterday asked that "If you have any specific questions about BLP, feel free to ask".

However, you appear to be wheel-warring with them, by instead blocking my talk page access, so I cannot ask specific questions.

Please <s>list</s>lift the talk page block, so I can ask specific questions (and continue the edit simply cleaning up the page, without removing any comment, or adding any material not already in evidence).

Talkpage Restoration Request (UTRS) - August 12[edit]

Orologio blu.svg
This blocked user is asking that their block be reviewed on the Unblock Ticket Request System:

Nfitz (block logactive blocksglobal blocksautoblockscontribs deleted contribsabuse filter logcreation log change block settingsunblockcheckuser (log))


UTRS appeal #18971 was submitted on Aug 12, 2017 08:28:20. This review is now closed.


--UTRSBot (talk) 08:28, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

UTRS Unblock Form[edit]
Why do you believe you should be unblocked?

I'm only requesting restoration of talk page access at this time. I'm not requesting a change to the block itself.

Talk page access was restored on Thursday. Since the second block request was denied shortly afterward, I have not relitigated the blocks relating to BLP. I've simply responded to comments by others, remained civil, and tried to ask a question about the BLP process.

I will try harder not to respond to the comments being made about me, that are only not moving forward the process.          

If you are unblocked, what articles do you intend to edit?

My talk page, to ask questions about BLP policy (so I can better understand it), to complete the reorganization of material on my page (including providing copies of my earlier unblock requests), and submit an third unblock request.

Why do you think there is a block currently affecting you? If you believe it's in error, tell us how.

User Spartaz thinks that I shouldn't be able to answer any further questions, and I am digging myself in further. He could well be right - though it's difficult when people come to my page unbidden and appear to violate WP:5P4, criticizing my actions, and ignoring my questions.

Is there anything else you would like us to consider when reviewing your block?

WP:Guide to appealing blocks says It's important that you understand the reasons why the administrator blocked you before starting an unblock request. ... Before requesting to be unblocked, you can ask the administrators that blocked you any clarification about their actions, and they're expected to answer them, though first you have to read the policies they have linked as the reason for the block.     

UTRS Email Response - August 13[edit]
Hello nfitz,

I will treat your answer to the first two questions as a confirmation that you will adhere to the proper usage of talk page while being blocked, and for that I will restore your talk page access shortly.

Alex Shih
English Wikipedia Administrator

Questions about BLP[edit]

1 - What does Contentious Mean?[edit]

I will for a third time, assume good faith and ask: What does contentious actually mean in this context. Debatable? Causing an argument? If you take that to the extreme - well we'd have to block most people who ever post to ANI for a start. Nfitz (talk) 07:01, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

  • Thank you. That seems reasonable. Nfitz (talk) 02:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I stated: 'If you have any specific questions about BLP, feel free to ask, but we're not going to get caught up debating semantics such as "what does 'contentious' even mean?"' The fact that you have thrice repeated this question indicates that you are being difficult. Any reasonable person, should they actually not understand the definition of the word "contentious", would simply have looked it up. You've flatly indicated that you are unwilling to do so, or are unable to comprehend the result of doing so. This—from my perspective—will permanently go on the record as evidence of unwillingness to listen. Swarm 07:27, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

2 - BLP Status of Quotes, Headline, and URL contents?[edit]

  • See below. Swarm 07:35, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Background[edit]

Shortly before my first unblock request, my 3-day block was extended to 7-days with removal of talk page access diff. I've previously noted at this point, I still was misinterpreting BLP, so in many ways it was a fair cop. In the comment, it refers to the edit above, which I believe is diff. There is a lot of potentially contentious stuff in that comment. Other than a reference to the discussion in sentence 2, the remaining stuff is either a direct quote by some of the most powerful leaders in that country, the title of the articles of major organization (though Fox News may be biased) or the contents of the URL itself. Nfitz (talk) 06:08, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

  • As the actioning administrator: the comment you linked to, in my view, constituted both a reaffirmation and an attempt at justification of your previous comments—whether or not you were technically quoting somebody else, or referencing a news article, the intent of doing so obviously seemed to be to reinforce highly contentious views that you had already expressed, whereas the correct course of action in the context of BLP would be to retract them without any hesitation. Given the fact that you were discussing political figures with massive numbers of supporters, it's virtually impossible to credibly argue that such views couldn't provoke any sort of argument (i.e. "contentious"), challenge, or be perceived as negative. Swarm 06:30, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I actually agree with you. Guilty on all charges. That comment was on August 8th 7:41 pm. The 7-day block was at 1:12 AM on August 9th. And between then, and my first unblock request at 3:48 AM on August 9th, I had a Eureka moment, while again re-reading WP:PUBLICFIGURE. So my mind changed 180° in a few minutes - as it does. This is why I assumed my first unblock request and then the second would be successful. It is the failure of those requests, that has lead to what some perceive as too many questions. I'm sorry if I've been too verbose ... I'm trying to be completely transparent, and submit an unblock request that addresses all concerns. I don't think I've made a BLP violation in the last 5 days since that moment; I think the violations were all in the first 24-hours of the block, before I realised my mistake. Nfitz (talk) 07:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Questions[edit]

Is simply a quote from a leading politician, or a headline or URL in a reliable publication automatically a BLP violation on a User Talk Page or something similar? Is there any difference if the person in connection has admitted in public to it? (Alternatively, was the BLP violation merely for ... it didn't even cross my mind that discussing REDACTED as a REDACTED could be a BLP violation.?) Nfitz (talk) 06:08, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

  • Context is everything. If you're strictly discussing on a talk page the technicalities of how, precisely, an article should convey controversial information, you have free reign to speak frankly about views which are supported by reliable sources, so long as you aren't expressing your own views and the information is presented in the article in strict compliance with the MOS. However, if it appears in any way that you're merely expressing your own opinions, you'd be breaching WP:NOTFORUM. Users' individual views are never relevant or tolerable on this project. And, if such views can be perceived as contentious in any way, for being positive or negative, they are a violation of WP:BLP. Swarm 06:42, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
  • In very simple terms: You may talk about contentious views expressed by others, with care, if you actually have an encyclopedic, content-related reason for doing so. Short of that, you are forbidden to express your own contentious views. If no such encyclopedic reason exists, you may not express contentious views, even if you're only quoting views expressed by others. Swarm 06:52, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Thanks - and I can see now how I did cross that line. And to tell the truth, it's not an issue that's likely to come up, given how rarely I edit in the topic area. As I've said, I was only there casually to simply read about someone I'd heard mentioned in the news - but never heard of before - and in trying to fix a broken reference I spotted, ended up with the acronym in question on a user's talk page - and then things escalated, because of my failure to properly understand the BLP policy (which isn't an area I typically edit in, except very uncontroversial football players, where the BLP issues, is do they actually exist). More fundamentally, my understanding of the BLP policy has evolved considerably. Nfitz (talk) 07:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Post Question 2 Comments - Edits since block[edit]

Noting, for the record, that I have reviewed Niftz's contributions, and that, since the block, and as of this comment, they have logged a staggering sixty edits to their talk page, of which absolutely zero comprised an acceptable unblock request. In addition to this, they have submitted three UTRS block appeals, of which zero constituted an acceptable unblock request. In addition to this, they have submitted two disclosed off-wiki emails to administrators, including one to myself, that have resulted in a denial of any type of block mitigation. In addition to this, they have submitted two additional disclosed off-wiki emails that have resulted in talk page access being restored (in response to two separate revocations of talk page access). Also noting, for the record, that all that is needed to achieve an unblock is one on-wiki unblock request, one UTRS unblock request, or one off-wiki email. Swarm 08:20, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

There has been quite enough guidance given, and discussion, on what is permissible. Niftz, your talk page access was restored to enable you to make an appeal here. If you use this talk page for any purpose other than submitting an unblock appeal then access to this page will be revoked again. Just Chilling (talk) 14:07, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
I thought both simple questions, without debate, and unblock requests were allowed. In fact the unblock request on August 12, to let me edit my talk page, included "to ask questions about BLP policy (so I can better understand it), ". Coincidentally, this was the topic of the third (and only remaining) question. Which I know ask below. Nfitz (talk) 07:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

3 - What guidance exists exists as to what a blocked User can do on their talk page?[edit]

Background[edit]

There seems to be conflicting information out there (and in comments here) about what can, and can't, be on the talk page when a user is blocked. And it does appear to have become more restrictive, than it was, when I first joined to the project, shortly after this "experiment" was implemented - WP:Blocked users can edit their own talk page. When users are blocked, they are provided with links to 3 documents about Wikipedia blocks. These are WP:Blocking policy, WP:Appealing a block, and WP:Guide to appealing blocks.

The clearest statement I've seen about what is and isn't allowed is the the WP:Appealing a block document which has a section at the bottom called Abuse of the unblocking process which says: A usual block prevents users from editing all pages except their user talk page, in order to have a chance for appeal, and so that they are not shut out completely and are able to participate at least to some degree in Wikipedia, while the block is active. Nfitz (talk) 07:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Question[edit]

Is there any other guidance I've missed about talk page content while blocked? I've always taken WP:AAB as guidance, particularly the quoted text above, which is relatively unchanged since it was added by User:FT2 back in 2007 diff with a bit of discussion here. Given I've been told clearly that I should only be submitting block unrequests, and perhaps simple questions (though some disagree), I'm a bit confused - as with the latter, I get the impression that If I choose to just sit out the block completely I could chat about the project in a civil and NPOV way with those that pass by - and perhaps even keep a small to do list, of things I want to edit, when I get a chance. Nfitz (talk) 07:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Nfitz: The guidelines on use of talk page while blocked are a secondary issue; their aim is to focus people on why they are blocked and prevent further misuse while the original block is sorted out. There's no point using a talk page to co-ordinate contributions if it's not likely there'll be future contributions. I'm not going there, because I can see people posting to try and get across to you a more serious message: that right now, the feeling is pretty much "figure it out, Nfitz, or leave".
What people posting here want is a simple yes/no decision by you - do you agree to follow the community's view on BLP and other policies going forward, while you edit Wikipedia, or not. That's about as unsubtle as it gets, and again, it's not a debate point, it's a yes/no answer. If you can't or won't, then we're done.
That doesn't need a long debate style reply. I won't be taking up the finer debates on the point; nor will most others. The explanations you need have been given, even if you didn't "get it" at the time. I won't be saying anything in any consensus view on block/unblock/ban/unban if it happens so my opinion on your situation doesn't matter.
My experience is that the community is very quick to set aside the past when it's learned from. Those that can say "sorry, I now know what I mustn't do, and I won't do it again", usually get unblocked. Those that can't or who repeat their past, may not. Only you can choose how you come across or what you say. But in your case, the usual ways someone shows "I understand what I did that crossed the line, I have learned from it and I won't do these things if I'm unblocked; is it okay to edit again in a while?", aren't happening.
You need to make a single personal decision here, and you need to explicitly say what you decide, not just gather information and debate around it. You've had a lot of explanation. You can take whatever time you need to read BLP yet again if it helps. You understand now that BLP generally covers any negative comment that isn't in good quality sources, relevant, and significant enough to bear mentioning and agreed to be so by the wider community - not just criminal comments. The community may go further in some cases and that's a matter for consensus each time. If you have any comments or thoughts on the policies/guidelines, discuss that after unblock; it will do more harm than good right now.
If you can follow the community's ways, just say "yes, I agree to follow XYZ", and be explicit what you agree to do, or refrain from doing, that has caused past issues. If you aren't sure but you can at least avoid the issue ("I promise not to edit X type of material/topic or add it to Wikipedia") that might work too. You might have to sit out the rest of the block, but the matter will be resolved once it's done. If you can't or won't or aren't sure you can keep to it, then this may not be right for you, even after many years of editing.
That is probably your most direct route to eventual unblocking. It's provided as my own thought and information only. Most other things distract - and anything that looks like a distraction will add weight to not unblocking. I hope it helps. FT2 (Talk | email) 08:32, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Thanks FT2 for the very quick, clear, and unexpected response. Sorry, I somehow missed the alert, in my formatting spree, or I'd have responded sooner. At this point, I feel I've pleaded guilty to just about all charges (except boasting - third block ... although re-reading my unblock request just now, I do see that I was being too defensive) more than once, and not only promised to follow BLP several times, but actually taken the time to understand my comprehension problem, and realize my error (personally, I can never promise to follow a guideline I don't understand ... because to be honest, I'm likely to repeat the error again, if I haven't managed to hit my head against the wall long enough, to understand the issue).
I'd write the unblock request right now. But I've already stayed up way too late, and I'm probably not thinking straight. Best for me to start fresh tomorrow, and write a brief, but concise, request. Nfitz (talk) 09:26, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Just so you know, where there have been serious issues (as seen by others), or the discussion has veered close to "can this person be permitted to edit at all", the community often wants to reassure itself that you really do "get it". Expect some level of probing of what exactly you understand of your actions and of what's needed, or the policies - and be assured it's sometimes intense but not hostile. It's not about "pleading guilty". It is mainly to check if you know enough to successfully be serious about any stated intent, and understanding what's needed, so we don't end up here again if you are unblocked. That is all that people need to feel sure about. Similarly you may be asked to sit out any block after agreeing and again, that's not "punishment"; its aim is to distinguish those who have self restraint and accept the community's view, from those whose stated future self-control will only be skin-deep and they'll end up blocked again. (If they haven't the patience to hold back when asked on a block, how on earth will they change whatever caused the issue in the first place?).
In short, the community will look for an unblock that confirms how much of any change can be relied on, what you've learned, and whether any commitment will be kept. For example, if in future you aren't sure, have you got the idea to ask before editing a dubious point, to accept a distasteful consensus or concern (or at worst handle it appropriately by seeking advice on a suitable route), to take on board your peers' concerns - and to take it as meaningful and discuss in a suitable venue first, if someone else considers that your edit might not be suitable. Can you? Will you?
If you don't understand some issues enough to be sure about them, the first question is whether or not you can accept they are policy anyhow. Only then is it relevant to ask, can you take steps to avoid violating them anyhow. Long philosophical debates may not be welcomed (people have limited resources and time!), but if specific things you don't understand might be a problem, say what you're unsure on, and say directly what you will do to avoid such issues. For example, you might ask others first and accept their opinions, if unsure, or post on the talk page instead, or ask if there is a willing admin that you can email "Is this okay..." and avoid accidental BLP violations on the public pages, or just avoid edits where the issues arise.
Again, this is for info, so you have a heads up, and to ensure you understand the mind-set of the community in these unblock discussions. An unblock is a chance to show you can do it. If granted, don't fluff it. FT2 (Talk | email) 13:15, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Third Unblock Unrequest[edit]

I've used the same format as UTRS for convenience and consitency.

File:Orologio rosso or File:Orologio verde DOT SVG (red clock or green clock icon, from Wikimedia Commons)
This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who accepted the request.

Nfitz (block logactive blocksglobal blocksautoblockscontribs deleted contribscreation log change block settingsunblockfilter log)


Request reason:

see table below Nfitz (talk) 07:01, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Accept reason:

Thank you for taking the time and effort to understand BLP policy. This unblock request was all we were looking for. While I'm sure this situation has been frustrating for you, I appreciate your painstaking attempts at resolving it, and I hope you can trust that there are no hard feelings on the part of any admins involved. Regards, Swarm 18:42, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Unblocking administrator: Please check for active autoblocks on this user after accepting the unblock request.
Why do you believe you should be unblocked?

I've realized my error in interpreting WP:BPL. I understand the piece of WP:BLP that I had previously failed to appreciate (WP:PUBLICFIGURE) applies, even when allegations have been beyond question. This also means that my original comment falls under WP:BLPTALK, and that contentious comments must be avoided unless absolutely necessary - and they seldom are - at least in most of the articles I tend to edit.

And while I now realize that my earlier comments in user space and WP:ADMIN are unacceptable, I've never come close to doing anything like that in Main space, and I don't represent any risk, danger, or concern to the project. I strive to follow the rules (and am frustrated when others don't follow them). I have learened and won't repeat this mistake

If you are unblocked, what articles do you intend to edit?

The same ones I've been editing for years. Generally local stuff, Canadian stuff, and football (particularly younger and up and coming players). I tend to use Wikipedia a lot, both professionally (if only to check how a word is used, or for general interest), I'll fix most errors if I see them, and it's straight forward.

Current (but moving slowly) projects include trying to rehabilitate the Nauru national soccer team article (currently in my sandbox - and it may not be rehabilitatable, but does require some tough research), and trying to clean up the 9-year old mess from the Mozaikka ‎sock, that I may be the only person who cares about.

I've also recently remembered the joy of working in French, and I'll probably spend more time working on articles there - which are particularly lacking from a perspective Ontarien.

Why do you think there is a block currently affecting you? If you believe it's in error, tell us how.

The first and second blocks (3 days and 7 days) I understand completely. The bottom line is I was completely wrong. I accept that. I disagree with the claim in the third block that I was boasting - that is not true - although I can see perhaps why one might assume that. My only reason for my comment that lead to that, was a concern that there might be real bias here; however that isn't relevant to the unblocking process.

Is there anything else you would like us to consider when reviewing your block?

I think there's been some confusion why I simply just didn't promise earlier to follow BLP, and move one. At first, simply because I didn't think that I was wrong (which I guess makes me twice as wrong). But then, because I wasn't clear on where the limits were - and I wanted to make sure I understood it properly, before making a final unblock request. If stopping and trying to discuss 3 or 4 points, and ask questions, and test assumptions, isn't considered normal, and is considered odd, then I really wonder about the intent and good faith of many who are requesting unblocks. Personally I'd be suspicions of someone who did make a lot of violations, but then turned around on a dime, and promised to behave.

Secondly - despite my long experience here, very little of it has been in the BLP area. And much of what has been for living persons, has been the simple addition of a single well-sourced fact (often from what I may have seen on my kitchen table from well respectable sources), or in the subject of football players - where the only controversial question, is if this is a real person or a hoax; I've never really had any need to delve deeper into WP:BLP than WP:BLPSOURCES - nor am I likely to much in the future. This experience has confirmed my desire, to stay away from such a toxic area - particularly in terms of foreign politics.

In the meantime, I appreciate your patience in following this process, and apologize if I've put everyone through too much drama. Nfitz (talk) 07:01, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

@Swarm: @Yunshui: As the blocking administrators, would you consider this latest unblock request? The key issues have been addressed in my opinion. Alex ShihTalk 07:48, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
Based on the above, I support lifting the block. Yunshui  16:08, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
I concur. Swarm 18:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
I have lifted the block without further ado. Swarm 18:25, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Support[edit]

Hey Nfitz, it's really nice to see the block is now lifted. I have read the long note you wrote earlier just now, and I really wish you well with your health. I have some similar experiences personally but that's a story for another day. Regards, Alex ShihTalk 06:11, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, it's always helps to hear support, and that there are others. It's a strange adventure - and I am thanful that it's relatively mild, and a very good healthcare system. Nfitz (talk) 06:15, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
From the editor who initially complained: having read this request I'm glad to see you unblocked. Happy editing. James J. Lambden (talk) 06:24, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. And I have to apologize - the post that finally had me blocked I was trying to point out that you were wrong about bias. I'm sorry, you may well have been right! Nfitz (talk) 08:57, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Some stroopwafels for you![edit]

Gaufre biscuit.jpg Welcome back (officially!) Garchy (talk) 15:41, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Spades etymology[edit]

OK, now that that’s over; as you indicated an interest in etymology, back to etymology of “call a spade a spade”. Yes, this goes back millennia, was related to shovels, and only took on a racist connotation during the 1920’s. But, I don’t think it was related to blacks using shovels. Another derogatory slur in the 20’s was “black as the ace of spades”. I think it’s more likely that the first slur is related to the second and that spade refers to color, not shovels. The symbol for spades in French playing cards, which are the cards mostly used these days, looks kinda like a shovel. But, there is no relation. The symbol is the same as in early French cards, which were called piques (pikes in English) after a medieval weapon. But, the French cards were modeled after the German cards, where spades were called leaves. The symbol for spades has the same shape (different color) as the German leaves symbol and is fairly obviously a leaf with a stem. Anyhow, it’s a guess, but it looks like spade refers to color. Oh, and welcome back. Objective3000 (talk) 17:52, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I'd slowly realised that it was all about the playing card, but I hadn't thought of the "black as the ace of spades" phrase, that does ring a bell, vaguely - sounds like something out of Film Noir. But then, I wonder - why call Sam Spade by that name - which I think is where I always assumed (wrongly) that word lead. Nfitz (talk) 19:28, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
The story is that Philip Marlowe and Sam Spade were both named after a real-life black private detective named Samuel Marlowe. Objective3000 (talk) 20:20, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
That appears to all stem from a single source...who is peddling a screenplay. Anmccaff (talk) 23:49, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
Possibly. which is why I haven't added it to any article. Although it's persuasive. Objective3000 (talk) 00:45, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
Interesting - and I saw the recently reverted edit on the Marlowe page here. It's easy enough to pull the 1920, 1930, 1940 censuses, and find Samuel Benjamin Marlowe of LA. A janitor in 1920, a real estate agent in 1930 with their own office (!), and a painter in 1940. Born 1891 in Jamaica, and a World War vet. Other ancestry.com documents indicate he was a painter, emigrated from Cuba in 1918, was naturalized in 1922 when he was a broker, witnessed by Harry Stancel (sp?) occupation Slime Parlor (well, that's what it looks like), and Chad R. Ransom (there's a good name for a mystery!), ... 1939 photo of son (SAMUEL BENJAMIN MARLOWE JR)in mostly white LA high school, died July 1991, a couple of weeks before his 101st birthday, in LA., carpenter in 1921 city directory, real estate in 1924 directory. Wife's maiden name Irene Albertha Manahan, naturalized in 1935, could write, and witnesses for naturalization were Annie Williams (an undertaker!) and Martha High (housewife). He's in city directories from 1993 to 2002, son died 2003 in LA. And here's the nugget (typing in realtime here), 1928 voter registration lists his occupation as detective (and Republican), 1930 voter reg. as a detective (and a Republican), 1932 sadly no occupations listed, in 1934 he'd switched to Prohibition Party, In 1938, 40, 42, and 44 was an "investigator" (still Prohibition, but Irene can vote now too, and she's a Democrat, by 1944 son and daughter Pearl can both vote, and are Democrat students). No occupation in 1948/1950 (and STILL Prohibition), 3 kids voting now, Miss Rena A is also a Democrat). Son has left home by 1954 (pops up in Florida), and our Samuel is now a Republican again. Wow, 1956 looks computerized, both kids have left home by 1960. Son is listed as a Doctor (of what?) in 1993. His 1918 passenger list landing in Tampa says he's a Gunsmith, and contact info is a N. Silvers in Havana, with a final destination of New York City. Son is a chiropractor in LA (graduated 1950 from University of California Berkely & San Francisco) in 1955. 1991 death certificate is available, which may have father's name. There's a match for 1959 for a car washer in the Miami Beach city directory ... father son ... probably false positve, and the ONLY one I got in the USA. Family tree of questionable provenance, saying Irene died in 1967 and mother was Ann Scott, hmm, and a potential BLP violation. Son might have married in Ohio, with wife and child - microfiche only. Wow. I'd have never started transcribing that, if I thought there was so much stuff. I've been using ancestry for genealogy for over 12 years. I've NEVER had such a haul on ANY of my own relatives! And the name must be very unique, other than that car washer in Florida, the only name match on planet, was an 8-month-old baby that died in Missouri in the 1880s. Sorry, if that's a bit verbose and Original Research - but all primary records, and in my opinion, excellent quality, with lots of info to connect it all together (lots of addresses). And living until 1991, he had a long time, to tell a lot of stories, to people still living now. Not sure if this will help anyone - I don't think it can be used for much in itself, but it might help someone, know where to search for more. Wow ... Thanks guys, for sending me down this rabbit hole, I didn't have time for. :) Also see website Nfitz (talk) 04:14, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
Oh, and I should have started at THIS Jamaican website] which confirms a lot of what I just found, including his obituaries, many years serving in Africa in Expeditionary Force, in police in Jamaica, before coming to USA. And a 1927 advertisement for the S.B. Marlow Detective Agency in the California Eagle ... "roberies, murders, arson, kidnapping ....) ... and a 1930 article he wrote himself about his "Assistant Chief of the Marlowe Detective Agency", and referencing his film career. He was in King Kong (1933 film) (not proven), according to this and [IMDB]. A second obit says he was a Mason, a charter member of a Credit Union, helped to found the black Screen Actors Guild ... Yeah, I think this guy is for real. He certainly had the background to be the detective. And there's contemporary references. But need the proof of the link to Sam Spade and Marlowe really. But I think there should be a Wikipedia article for Samuel Benjamin Marlowe! Heck, there should a movie. Wow! Nfitz (talk) 04:29, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
"For real" and "directly inspired the characters and names of Sam Spade and Philip Marlow" are two very separate concepts. Anmccaff (talk) 04:54, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
Well I'll leave that to others. (good gosh, is it possible it's Sam Spade, because it's named after Sam, and he's a S ...). Though there's probably enough to verify that there was a real LA detective of that name in that period, and to say something like "descendents of Samuel Marlowe, a 1920s through 1940s black LA gumshoe (ref, ref, ref) have claimed that (ref, ref). But I have no stake in that race (hopefully stake is not also some slur I've never heard of! :). And gosh - how can there not be an article about this guy ... but that's a separate issue. Nfitz (talk) 10:26, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
My wife's first comment on hearing all this, is she always assumed that Marlowe in the books was related name-wise to Marlow in Heart of Darkness. I pondered how common the name is. Number of Marlowe's in the 1920 US census - only 1,366 (about 6 times more Marlow's). Taylor - 316,000. Franklin, 48,000. It's not a particularly common spelling. Just thinking out loud. It does seem rather week for the Philip Marlowe article - perhaps stronger for the Same Spade. Need one more thing really ... Nfitz (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
And then there's this. Nfitz (talk) 17:01, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Edit summary[edit]

If you don't know what you are talking about, say nowt. - Sitush (talk) 09:31, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

And now you're digging yourself into a hole at ANI and elsewhere in relation to the same general issue. This is far from the first time of late and I'm tempted to propose that you are banned for some time from the drama boards and have intimated as much in the ANI thread. - Sitush (talk) 18:36, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Am I? First time I've logged in, in a day. And no one has pinged me. Thanks for the head's up. There's nothing else really to say though; since last time I commented the consensus clearly didn't agree with me; not sure where it's gone since though. I genuinely don't believe there was any malice in the comment; some mischief perhaps, but not malice. I've presented my view; there's nothing really to say until the accused returns from their travels to defend themselves. I bear you no ill will, BTW; or anyone. I have no axe. And I'm still genuinely curious about the whole caste/race thing I inadvertently stumbled into! Thanks for the heads up ... sigh I should just avoid the place ... let's see which seldom-punished cliquist is being incivil to me now, for the high crime of not creating unaminity. Nfitz (talk) 01:19, 20 August 2017 (UTC) Nfitz (talk) 01:19, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Inded, you should "just avoid the place". And if you do not then you will be forced to do so eventually because you are so far out of kilter there, so often of late, that it is becoming a competence issue. I may not have commented in a thread involving you before but that does not mean your WP activity is unknown to me. It will end badly, as it so often does when someone with too little information and a most definite axe to grind starts inserting themselves into drama board disputes, whether on the boards themselves or elsewhere. Why you have recently become so contrarian isn't something I can explain, of course, but you've been around long enough that, surely, you must recognise what the outcome is going to be, regardless of whether you consider it to be the action of a clique or not? Choose your battles wisely. - Sitush (talk) 04:49, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure what your motive is here; I merely expressed my concern about your very clear and unequivocal personal attack. I was civil and even complementary about your editing skill in a completely different area, which you've tried to turn that into some kind of odd competence claim in a topic area that I've neither ever edited in or commented upon! I did pop over to ANI and other than a single minor comment the only critism I see of me since I last read it yesterday is from you! Disagreeing with someone isn't an offence. I don't have to see it the same was as you. And if I do so, you don't have to bully and spin stories. (BTW, what was that road map comment all about ... I make it clear that I'm not trying to grass you; and you threaten to take that to ANI? How does that work? For someone to have dealt with so much real harassment over the years, I'm not sure why you are getting stirred up about mine; if the remarks were meant as you've interpreted, you've certainly got every right to have a grievance (though not to personally attack). But as you've pretty much won the entire debate, and gotten ANI to give you what you want - I'm not sure why you come back a day later and start again. Nfitz (talk) 06:11, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

ANI[edit]

Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Sitush (talk) 02:48, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Which can now be found at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive964#Tendentious behaviour of Nfitz. The only positive here, is that for once, behaviour isn't spelled incorrectly! Nfitz (talk) 22:28, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
  • If you had concerns, you could simply raise them with me, rather than running to ANI. Nfitz (talk) 11:27, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Nfitz, I haven't read too much into the extended conversations, but if it's (merely) about why editors can get away with "fuck off", my opinion is that it highly depends on the context. I have some thoughts about this too, and if you'd like I can explain my understanding of the rationale. In the meanwhile, may I request that if possible, to not comment in that thread anymore even if you are being pinged? Please. Alex ShihTalk 14:05, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
As soon as I said I wasn't going to respond, that was literally used against me, and the block was proposed. It's not just about calling someone a fuck off or fuckwit, but why we apparently have community consensus that WP:CIVIL and WP:5P4 don't seem to have import any more. And then this bizarre accusation of outing that someone was once sanctioned as a sock puppet. Nfitz (talk) 14:23, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
WP:CIVIL and WP:5P4 still matters, but I guess in reality it cannot really be enforced properly. I don't believe it's the consensus, but it's the unspoken mutual understanding of those who participate in the process regularly. I don't think it's necessary to think nor speak too much about this, so it's probably better for you to just not talk about it or just logoff. By the way, why is it relevant to bring out the backstory? It adds nothing of value to your point. Ideally it would be better if you could strike that comment out. Whatever you do, just remember that Jimbo Wales might agree with you. Alex ShihTalk 15:01, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Done ... but I'm once again not comprehending something - how someone's history that they themselves publicize is verbotten. Interesting - I've never looked at his stuff much, trying to normally stay out of the meta-politics - I actually wondered if he was part of the problem, given the free reign he seems to give some of the admins. Though I'm not aware of misogyny being a huge issue ... but I've also avoided the whole gamergate discussions so effectively, I actually had to read the Wiki article about it not so long ago, because I actually had little idea what it was about, other than the toxicity. Nfitz (talk) 15:21, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
I guess it comes down to whether or not it's relevant, otherwise WP:POLEMIC can be immediately applied. I think you should steer clear of AN/I contentious discussions for a while, I've been trying to do the same too. Can you do that for me? Anyway, I am not familiar with GamerGate also, other than one of the sanctioned editor was responsible for my block log (interesting fact of the day, lol). Here's another distraction read for you if you haven't read it already. Alex ShihTalk 15:45, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Ah, I've read up on the real-word GamerGate ... how such clear misogyny had any impact here I haven't even dared to figure out. And I keep seeing references of GamerGate sanctions in many topic areas that I have no comprehension why. I should really read Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate but it's daunting and not particularly accessible for a foreigner whose gaming days were mostly behind him when the Commodore 64 came out. ... though it all seems to boil down to discretionary any gender-related dispute or controversy or associated people, all broadly construed. Which seems infinite in it scope - and probably covers every article about US politics these days, with the military trans ban. However, I seem to have avoided stepping in this one - though as I've observed, those of us left of US political centre, do seem to get more editing leeway. (not that I'm saying I'm left-wing ... around here, we'd call Clinton a conservative, and "socialists" like Sanders look slightly right-of centre when you analyze their platform ... so he'd be a red Tory and my support flips anywhere centrist, depending on the leader and issues). But I do, as usual, digress. Bottom-line, I think there's a lot of assumptions by some, that many of us actually understand what some of these policies are about, when even the foreign news stories about them aren't widely known, outside very small circles.
The rest of that is all new to me too. There's days of procrastination in there. Wow ... not sure how the whole thing ended ... but I guess there's a case for using IPs to edit certain subjects (and for the record, I've only ever done that relating to a local club ... or is it an international crime syndicate, the claims vary - though I don't recall the police ever blowing the doors of the local Buffalo lodge with a small army in the middle of the night).
Yes, I can try and do it. I've tried to avoid inserting myself in any discussions unless it's an extremely obvious comment that I've got some special knowledge on - it's a bit tougher though when you see the whole thing unfold before you elsewhere, it gets dragged to ANI, and the entire root cause of the whole thing is so utterly obvious (or apparently not it seems). Nfitz (talk) 22:33, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Well I tried; I didn't think I couldn't apologize to Ken though (who I'll send some links he may not be aware of inside the project that should probably be revdel) - once I sort out a new burn email account. I also hatted a bit more of that outing thing, and removed some more of my text that should be suppressed (or should I do the opposite, and highlight it so it gets revdeled?). Nfitz (talk) 10:03, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

From your contribution history I see you've been around for a while but not super active as a Wikipedian (this is an observation, not a criticism).

  • Unfortunately, despite the fine sounding words at WP:CIVIL, the reality is Wikipedia has more of "civility meme" instead of a functioning civility policy. (See User:NE_Ent/Notes_on_civility for backstory). So, yea, in Wikipedia-as-it-should-be an occasional "Fuck off" shouldn't fly, but as it is -- we even have a former arbitrator justifying the occasional use of the term User:Beeblebrox/fuck_off. (In fairness, if you look at the failed RFC he put a lot of ultimately unsuccessful effort to help achieve a coherent policy).
  • Secondly, Bishonen is about the last admin you'd want to complain about Sitush about -- see the output of the interaction tool] output. Even so, you're entitled to one polite request on an admin's page -- if they don't want to reply, they don't have to unless WP:ADMINACCT applies, and I haven't seen evidence that it does. Specifically ADMINACCT only requires an admin to discuss use of admin tools, not why they didn't do something. (They're volunteers that get the same crappy pay the rest of us do.)
  • The term http://tools.wmflabs.org/afdstats/afdstats.py?name=Sitush"user page" is a misnomer -- it's not actually yours. (Like everything else around it, it's actually WP:WMF's). The purpose of the page is to share what you want other users to know about yourself. So you should expect other editors to read it if you attract their curiosity somehow. The place for general boring notes to yourself is your sandbox User:Nfitz/sandbox. and there's not rule use have to just have one. (Mine sandbox is a list of sandboxes, e.g. User:NE Ent/sandbox2, .../sandbox3. etc. The place for dirt you may need on other editors someday is off-wiki e.g. Google Docs or local storage.
  • A little known fact about ANI is you're not required to reply is someone if talking smack about you their. A even lesser known fact is that it's usually best not to. If an actual admin asks you a direct question, a short, to the point reply is warranted, but otherwise just walking away is best. See User:NE Ent/Unilateral interaction ban.
  • Wikipedia isn't fair -- see WP:NOJUSTICE. If that is inherently something you're not comfortable with long term, you're not going to be happy here long term. That's not meant as the threat it might sound like -- I'm trying to help you here -- but just the sad reality of how this place works. We're pretty good at being an encyclopedia and pretty bad at most other things. NE Ent 16:33, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the comments. No criticism felt - I'm a strong advocate of "Just the facts"; sadly many seem to react poorly to that. Oh, so much history I don't know. I'd never witnessed the interaction between them at all - perhaps because I don't tend to edit in the area of the subcontinent that much outside soccer and Gujurat (having once worked there). (what brought Sitush to start an AFD discussion on a Louisiana Jew with WP:DYK history on the Monday following the weekend's KKK terror attack, the first in decades still baffles me - because I don't think there's any evidence of malice or Antisemitism - and that is ultimately where all this started, and the first place I saw his name, as I do track AFD, particularly for football, Canadians, and notable small-town Americans). I appreciate the help. I know I'd do better just to ignore the stuff I see that doesn't seem right, unfortunately I've a very deeply instilled "see something, say something" belief ... which does get me into trouble, both here, and in the real world. And of course saying something doesn't mean there's anything to it really - but if one doesn't discuss, and then dismiss it. Thanks again. Nfitz (talk) 23:41, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
    • The most likely explanation for Sitush's involvement is that they are highly active in Afd. [10]. More importantly, continuing to discuss them a) serves no benefit to the encyclopedia, and b) does not demonstrate a desire to move away from past conflict. A longstanding ideal WP:Personal is "Comment on the content, not the contributor." NE Ent 01:34, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
    • I'm surprised I've not run into them before - or perhaps I have, and it was so low key, I never noticed. Most of their AFDs seem pretty non-contentious. Looks like they've been on a Shreveport bent lately - and I suspect the holocaust survivor just caught in the middle of it just as the KKK rally ended, with no malice. I never criticized their taking it to AFD though - that was never part of the argument - I was simply defending the person they were accusing at ANI of calling them anti-Semitic. I believe I commented they had they had every right to AFD it, and my only comment at the actual AFD was to actually defend and expand on Sitush's claim that some of the references didn't meet BLP. It took some research to establish more sources, and a greater time period of sources; something I'm still quietly working on. Yes, I talk too much.
    • I forgot to reply on you ADMINACCT doesn't apply thought. Bishonen was the last admin to offer an extensive opinion before the discussion was closed, and called me out on stuff no-one else discussed. WP:ADMINACCT doesn't just refer to tools. That's the first sentence. Then it says Subject only to the bounds of civility, avoiding personal attacks, and reasonable good faith, editors are free to question or to criticize administrator actions and Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions. As such, very politely inquiring on their thoughts behind their statement, seemed to me to be very reasonable; I don't see any limit to just one question, if anything it's the opposite. Given the length of time it took to get a response, I think I was beyond civil - especially when the response to the second question was so unnecessarily rude. How no one else is seeing this as an WP:ADMINACCT fail I don't know (not that it was a big enough one for me to really care ... but it seems quite the opposite that I'm being roasted for following procedure when I'm not clear on something - politely discussing on the talk page; and they are off the hook completely for not following WP:ADMINACCT; I mean it's not like they were required to comment so extensively at ANI. Though who knows, perhaps I've missed the point ... again). Nfitz (talk) 10:03, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
    • Forgot to leave a diff. of Bishonen's contribution. In particular the edit summary Nfitz, you might do well to cut back drastically on your commentary at ANI before somebody opens a thread proposing banning you from it. is clearly Admin action that WP:ACCT applies to. As requested, I had stayed out of any further ANI cases, and followed procedure by very politely querying them about the whole thing. Nfitz (talk) 19:24, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

WP:OUTING[edit]

I am writing to inform you that your recent posts to WP:AN/I violated the Wikipedia policy against "outing" other editors – which you can find here – by publishing private information about me which I do not wish to be made public. Note that my background as an editor, including my previous accounts, is thoroughly covered at User:Beyond My Ken/My backstory, in which I deal with the circumstance you posted about, but without revealing the information which I wish to remain private.

Please note that outing often leads to being blocked from editing, especially after the editor has been informed not to do it. If you repost my private information, I will have no choice but to bring your violation to the attention of an admin for their adjudication.

Just a few days ago, another editor posted almost exactly the same information elsewhere, and Drmies, the admin who responded to my complaint, posted this to him:

WP:OUTING in no way gives you permission to fish around for what you can find. You were offered a link by the editor himself to his "backstory"--that's it. The rest has no bearing on the discussion you're having ("whataboutism" is best left for Facebook threads) and since the user has not voluntarily shared that information with you or the rest of the world, it is not your prerogative to post it. Thank you.

I have redacted the information, and have asked WP:OVERSIGHT to oversight it. Please do not restore it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:01, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: I haven't seen whatever Drmies responded to. I really don't know how telling people you were once blocked for ████████████ (and I didn't even do that except in response to a question) can possibly be outing something as you say that yourself. I don't mention any personal information. I don't know what you think I know, but I don't know it. I have looked up up off-wiki, but what I found, didn't even mention your block; it was all recent stuff. There's nothing I don't know, that you haven't put out there yourself, and could have been oversighted years ago. Of course I'll try and avoid outing you ... but not knowing how I outed you, it is difficult - though I don't tend to discuss you. And given that I haven't done anything even remotely sneaky to get information, there's likely something out there in Wikispace that should be oversighted, if this is a real issue.

I strongly support and endorse the WP:OUTING policy (and it's also in my own best interest - with a quarter-century online presence, I'm hardly difficult to out - I think there's text somewhere from me dissing Wikipedia in one of the Nupedia discussions in the 1990s ... oh wait, those dates don't work. Hmm, was there an earlier project ... this would have been more mid-1990s. But I digress )

Somebody else did similar recently? Is it possible that something became unoversighted? Have we had this discussion before ... I've hit the "I remember a Babylon 5 discussion from before it aired better than a discussion last month stage" some times (which is hopefully a temporary symptom of insomnia)? Which is why I've taken to writing more notes that are only for my benefit. Maybe I can figure it out, if I go look at what you redacted. Nfitz (talk) 23:13, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

  • I've emailed you the link; incidentally, ANI is best thought of as Z'ha'dum and best avoided by humans. NE Ent 23:33, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Oh. Why didn't someone say something. I thought more like the United Nations building. Hmm, I guess that makes ... oh, I'd better stop there. I'll read later - I'm starting kid duty for a while. Nfitz (talk) 23:43, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Got messages. Hmm, I'm surprised ... didn't see that coming. Based on the recent discussion I had regarding my ip/username outing to anyone on my corporate ip subnet, I think the official answer would be that outing doesn't count if you did it yourself. But I think they are wrong. I'm quite happy if anyone wants to suppress any of my edits (not that I expect I get a vote). But I am surprised there hasn't been more RevDel done. I'll email Ken some links ... later; school finally starts tomorrow, I still suffer from insomnia, one child is (or was) vomiting ... and I expect will be with me at the sleep specialist tomorrow, instead of school (quite gleefully describing my snoring I expect ...). Nfitz (talk) 08:28, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

topic ban from Wikipedia space[edit]

Per this discussion, you are indefinitely banned from making edits in the Wikipedia namespace with the sole exception of reporting vandalism to AIV. You can appeal this topic ban at AN/I in six months. This restriction is logged here. Katietalk 01:04, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Katie, just for clarity: there's normally in these cases also a common-sense exception allowing the user to respond if somebody else should mention or allude to them in Wikipedia space. Would you agree that that is understood here too? Bishonen | talk 07:19, 7 September 2017 (UTC).
Since I asked for clarification earlier (I almost feel we are in new territory here - has such a ban ever been done before?), I did come across WP:BANEX, however it's not clear to me if the way the ban was phrased means that Unless stated otherwise has been triggered or not. And there are unintended problems such as routine and mundane places like WP:REFUND and Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Football; I guess the former I flag down an admin. The latter is I leave it for someone else - but frustrating that I can't even correct something; I'd much prefer if the ban was a bit more targeted towards WP:AN/* - which is what I was trying to propose, when the close came. Nfitz (talk) 07:46, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
@Bishonen: I have no problem with common sense exceptions, which is why I specifically carved out vandalism, but I feel the topic ban was proposed to stop the arguments and walls of text that comprise his responses.
Nfitz, to address the concerns you raised on my talk (let's keep this conversation here – ping me if you want me to respond):
  • Yes, the topic ban extends to the entire Wikipedia namespace. That's what was proposed and discussed.
  • I closed the discussion when I did because no progress was being made and consensus was clear. Honestly, I did it to save you from yourself. A counterproposal from you probably wouldn't have been received well. Unfortunately, I don't think you can see that, which is why so many editors are frustrated with you.
  • You can appeal to ANI in six months.
  • Jays aren't even going to make the playoffs. Sadly, neither are the Royals.
  • BANEX applies, but you need to be very careful in how you approach it and be very clear in your explanation for the edit. If you're mentioned in an edit in the Wikipedia namespace, you're allowed to respond, but make sure you note in an edit summary or in the edit itself that BANEX applies. And for goodness' sake, be brief.
Go edit articles. Write the encyclopedia, and leave the drama alone. You're really close to a long block, and I don't want to see that happen. Katietalk 13:26, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
  • @KrakatoaKatie: But only the WP namespace? So I'm still good in the separate WT namespace (as per WP:ALIAS?
  • Well received or not, I think I was jammed up. It seems that I was convicted less on what actually happened, but on spun versions and long past mistakes, long admitted to and not repeated.
  • That aside, I can grudgingly accept and follow an ANI block - which I can see that perhaps I've outstayed my welcome - particularly with my contentious and unpopular position that we should treat WP:CIVIL like it'a a policy. But the concept of blocking me from AFD where I have participated heavily in the last year - and I don't recall any complaints in the last year, and probably two to three, when I start looking at my talk page.
  • I don't want to challenge the entire topic ban, but I do want to vary it. Is my only recourse really Arbcom? Or can I appeal the extent of the ban to WP:ANI despite the restriction on not being able to appeal for 6 months? Or is there another venue? I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be some kind of dispute resolution or mediation process - or perhaps there is, and I've not grasped it.
  • Jays do indeed seem done. KC could still pull it off. Fortunately my real passion is soccer, and both TFC and Sporting Kansas appear playoff bound.
  • I do want to edit. I had no intention of ever being back in ANI - which is why I was trying to make sure I understood the rules that I'd seemingly misinterpreted. But a lot of that work for me has been trying to improve borderline articles, that does require some communication in AFD. Nfitz (talk) 10:14, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Oh, my goodness.

  • If you want to stick your head in the lion's mouth and start in the WT space, it wasn't specifically mentioned.
  • As far as appeal, you can ask Arbcom via their mailing list, but you won't be successful. And if you edit ANI about this only a couple of days after the close, you're going to get blocked. Not by me, because I'm out, but someone will do it.
  • You don't need to edit AFD to improve borderline articles. Just improve them.
  • COYS. Katietalk 18:35, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Off to WT:CIVILITY. :) Sorry to disappoint the peanut gallery, who I know are watching this with anticipation, but I was only thinking of editing the very dull, geekish WT pages already near the top of my more frequently edited list. Thanks for clarifying that.
  • Well we are off to Arbcom then. Not quickly though, I'm still interviewing candidates ... I a little concerned about the lack of diversity - it's 2017 after all.
  • Yes, improving is an option; but often with the one's I deal with, there's an hour or two of research involved to do properly, in some foreign language. And my editing time is normally pretty limited; it would be nice to have the option of saying "hang on, what about this". And sometimes, the response tells you something you didn't realize, saving you a lot of time.
  • Well, they are okay. However the UK team I support just got bumped from level 6 to level 9.
Thanks - I appreciate the transparency. And the civility. And even the WP:Rope that I'll leave bundled elsewhere. I'll ping you if I have any future questions. Nfitz (talk) 23:58, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
"Wikipedia space" includes anything with a "Wikipedia" address, and that include "Wikipedia talk." You are banned from that. If you don't believe that is the case, post there and see what happens. I can tell you one thing that will happen: I will post on AN/I asking for an indef block on you. Stop this shit and do what the ban intended: go edit articles. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:02, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the concern Ken. The blocking admin {@KrakatoaKatie: said that WT wasn't included, just WP. I don't recall any discussion of "talk" at ANI - nor do I recall any troublesome issues in editing there in 12 years, despite some of my most edited pages being in that namespace. Can Katie confirm, as this warning seems very strong, given it contradicts what the blocking admin stated just above. Nfitz (talk) 02:15, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
As I said, if you want to edit WT, and take the risk of getting hauled back to ANI or blocked, go ahead. You can go ahead and edit the Wikipedia space and run the same risk. You can go running on the beach on Key West in the middle of this hurricane. None of these things are advisable as they have consequences, but it's your life. Ken is correct and I was distracted – don't edit the WT space at the risk of violating the topic ban. Now stop talking, because I'm not answering anymore. Katietalk 17:02, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I'm sorry I thought the block was only for one namespace, I was simply asking for clarification as per WP:BANEX. I have absolutely no intention of violating the ban, or even skirting it with pointy WT edits - but sooner or later I'd have commented on something in WT:FPL where I have regularly commented since it's inception without complaint. Thank your for the clarificaiton. Nfitz (talk) 17:44, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Wanted - a good Wikilawyer - apply within -[edit]

Help needed preparing documents for appeal. Special skills needed in translating unclear digressions into simple to understand text and handling stubborn client. Lousy pay. Long hours. The experience would look great on your CV. A good sense of humour is essential. Apply within. Nfitz (talk) 02:21, 7 September 2017 (UTC) Nfitz (talk) 02:21, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

I am sorry to hear the result. I think it would be wiser to talk about "appealing the appeal" after the issue dies down. Alex ShihTalk 03:07, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps. I'm a bit miffed that thread got closed after I said I was putting a proposal together. But it was likely buried deep enough that the closer had no idea it was there. Here's the timeline. All times North American Eastern Daylight.
  • 18:52 I signal at ANI that I might accept a topic ban, but the proposal is too blunt, and that I was putting together some points.
  • 19:02 I mention to someone I'm putting together a proposal.
  • 19:26 I give pretty good idea what I'm going to propose (when will I learn, I should have just typed a 2-line proposal)
  • 20:33    Last person with a new comment recommends to post for topic ban and ask for close
  • 20:38    Closer announces at top of thread, that they will close discussion. Gosh, I wish I'd seen that before now. At worst I wouldn't have wasted 50 minutes! :)
  • 20:46    I finish tidy up edits and responses in thread and start proposal edit.
  • 20:49    Discussion closed, topic ban added
  • 21:36 Present alternative proposal
Perhaps it wouldn't have made a difference - it seemed like reasonable proposal to me. But perhaps reasonable isn't part of the process. I can understand why so many editors who run into trouble, leave, or take revenge somehow. If I was still a child I probably wouldn't be cracking jokes.
I suppose that's not grounds for reopening. Nfitz (talk) 04:03, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
The purpose of the topic ban was not only to stop you from posting in Wikipedia space (which, BTW, includes Wikipedia talk}, but also to encourage you to work on articles or otherwise contribute to the improvement of the encyclopedia. Continuing to focus on Wikilawyering the ban, and advertising for someone to assist you in Wikilawyering the ban, isn't at all what was intended, and only contributes to the perception that you're not really here to work on the encyclopedia at all. I strongly advise you to drop this subject and go edit some articles. If you keep on this track, it is inevitable that someone's going to post a proposal for you to be site banned, and I can't say that they'd be wrong to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:56, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
  • You are just miffed, because I returned your application.
  • Seriously though - I'd hoped that the ad for the Wikilawyer would be seen for what it is - self-depreciating humour. Especially with the hidden comment in their about it being humour. Nfitz (talk) 19:08, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
{non-admin comment} I should know better than to stray into such conversations. But, Nfitz, you just don’t get it. Listen to Beyond and the other admins. You were given a courtesy. The trend was clearly in favor of a Tban when closed. The close protected you, as did an early close, during both of which I suggested a close. If you had continued to debate in the same style, IMHO, the sentiment would have eventually turned to a block. If you make the mistake of appealing now, in the same manner, it will probably end in loss of Talk and a block. I don’t know this – just my limited experience.
If you wish to appeal, some advice from a minor editor:
Be succinct. You use far too many words.
An appeal is about you, not other editors. Focus on your actions and how you’ve learned how to change them.
Do not mention flaws in WP policies and procedures. There are times and places. The last place is during an appeal.
Just don’t do it. Don’t appeal for six months. It makes you look like you won’t accept policies or rulings, or are argumentative, or in some sort of hurry to right great wrongs. And it wastes time of volunteers.
Seriously, you are still allowed to edit massive numbers of articles. You can show that you are a contributor. And, best of all, you don’t have to bother with Wikispace, which only masochists like me so imbibe. Objective3000 (talk) 00:31, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the advice. Ken, BTW, isn't an admin. There seems to be an impression here, that I do nothing but hang around WP:ANI, etc. I hadn't touched a topic at ANI since getting a [fortnight] after getting a very clear demand to do so from an admin. It was my very polite attempt to get a clarification on that (why Civil no longer applies), which basically consisted of a question, a straw-man response a week later, and my attempt to get back to the question. So few edits didn't exactly occupy my time much, as you can see in my contributions over that period. It's the being dragged to ANI that sucks my time - which is why I'm trying to avoid it (hence the desire for clear clarifications). The trend was indeed in favour of topic ban (hence my attempt to make it a bit more relevant and avoid wasting more time on), however given I had followed the unofficial ban since it was given, I think such a wide-ranging restriction is punitive ... and mostly punitive for stuff based on less recent editing, ignoring the successes I've had at moderating behaviour. Do I use a lot of words - perhaps. Perfection eludes me. IF only was a way to tweet everything. Nfitz (talk) 19:08, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

September 2017[edit]

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Star Trek: Discovery. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:

  1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
  2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. AussieLegend () 04:24, 18 September 2017 (UTC)