User talk:Ocaasi/Archive 2

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Astrology Page

Hi Ocaasi, I am not sure how our conversation on my talk page became part of the ongoing discussion. My comments were addressed to you rather than for general sharing on the Astrology page - even though I know it was on the public domain. Anyway, if it is constructive, then that is great. I would still like to continue our conversation. Robertcurrey (talk) 23:02, 19 March 2011 (UTC)


In case you haven't noticed, I've moved the conversation about this image from Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2011 March 14 (which is used for evaluating text concerns) to Wikipedia:Non-free content review#File:Khalid-Saeed.jpg which is appropriate for the actual concerns here. VernoWhitney (talk) 21:07, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I suspected that venue might not be the best place for it. Ocaasi (talk) 21:19, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Hey Ocaasi, how are you? I honestly cant believe I have fight for the 3rd time to keep the picture. I picture has been deleted twice already and resorted by two different admins. I have no way in getting in touch with Khaled's mom (his dad has passed away) because she is in Alexandria and I am sure if she even knows how to use the internet to send us an e-mail. But that's bullshit tho, me have many images of dead ppl, I honestly doubt that all of their families have sent us an e-mail saying its ok to use it. You can talk to SilverserenC about the picture. He has almost the same amount of info on the picture as i do. Today has been a bad for me as I had met a friend's family who lost their kid so I am sorry if I might have sound a bit like an a-hole. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 21:56, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

First of all, thank you for understanding. It has been a couple of hard days in Cairo for me but I am a bit better now. Going to stay until the 20th. back to main topic, I think Wael Ghonim is the only one who can get a permission from Khaled's mom seeing who he knows her personally. You can get in touch with him via e-mail. I think he is in Dubai at moment. his e-mail in all over the web so it should not be hard getting a hold of it. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 09:52, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
The edit you asked me to review is correct as far as I can tell. I kinda suck in writing arabic in english (like the one you asked me to review) but it seems right to me. I asked a friend and here is what he said:
While both are acceptable, Yanāyir is more accurate. --Sherif9282 (talk) 19:08, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
As for Khaled Saeed photo, All I know is a member of his family saw him like that and decided to take a picture and leak it. Wether it was his brother or cousin, I have no idea. Wael knows the family better than I do and can get you the exact info. I feel much better right now, have been debating all day about the 2011 Egyptian Constitutional Referendum. Hopefully people will vote no. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 19:26, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Masrawy is Egyptian version The Huffington Post. Ahmed Ahmed is the person who wrote the article and the end of the article he gives attribution to Ayman Nour by stating "المصدر: تدوينات أيمن نور". Hopefully, u will find this information useful. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 02:15, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I should have mention that Masrawy is not liberal, leftist or Islamist (I forgot the ppl think that "The Huffington Post" is left leaning or that most Egyptian sites are somehow Islamist (I am not taking about you, but ppl in genral)). In the article, it says "نقلا عن تدوينات د / ايمن نور" which could possibly means that Nour wrote it and Ahmed just republished it. I am 99% sure but its Arabic and we can interpret the text in so many different ways but again I am 99% sure that Nour wrote because it also says "حقيقة وفاة خالد شغلتنى عن شائعة وفاتى الكاذبة" which means "The facts behind the death of Khalid Saeed have distracted me from the rumors about the false rumors about my own death". There was a rumor that Nour had died and I had read a lot of his Blogs so I can tell its his style of writing (I can even hear his voice reading it, God I need to stop watching the NEWS for a while). I started the page about Khalid Saeed and I have it on my watch list. The arabic version is OK but the best one I have read in the one is Egyptian Arabic (Much more details although it lacks sources as most of the article in Egyptian Arabic do). -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 03:15, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

found it on his facebook account. and dude, feel free to ask about anything especially this photo. His death was such a shock to us due to this photo. Khaled was our youth version of the average joe in the middle class in Egypt. His death made many ppl think they or their kids could be next. that's why many ppl went out on the 25th. his death was the cause of our revolution, and helping you keep this photo his least I can do for him seeing how he gave many Egyptian (Myself included) our freedom. His the Egypian version of Mohamed Bouazizi‎. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 03:36, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok, but I still don't want to bother you. I'm glad you can help, too. Ocaasi (talk) 03:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
Al-Jazeera, Shorouk News, and Egypt News. Let me know if you need more or need anything else. :) -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 19:53, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

*facepalms* Now USchick is trying to make us go through all of the criteria again. Isn't this, like, the fifth time? SilverserenC 03:01, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I'm encouraging her by answering the questions. I can't tell. I don't know if she really cares about this photo. I think it's just a taste issue in general about dead people and images like this on Wikipedia. But if you don't understand the significance of this image, nothing makes sense. It'd be like voting on a bill you hadn't read, or singing a love song about someone you never knew. It just doesn't work. Ocaasi (talk) 03:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
  • I can't exactly make a counter-argument to an incorrect interpretation of Fair Use, not even considering the fact that forming a counter-argument would be legitimizing this wrong interpretation. SilverserenC 05:39, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Hello Gentlemen, thank you for taking this seriously. I think you're on the right track (not that I'm trying to encourage you.) Imho, if you're going to say something, you should at least know what you're talking about, and if you're going to link somewhere, it should be somewhere halfway credible. Any news organization in another country has to pass some sort of journalism criteria, even if it's very different from ours. Please make sure you do all the right things when you upload your images. :-) Many thanks and best wishes to The Egyptian Liberal! USchick (talk) 21:35, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

P.S. It would be very helpful if the page was in English so we can verify information, (Al-Jazeera has an English vesrion) if not, bring an interpreter. No one said international relations was easy! :-) USchick (talk) 21:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
USchick, you can use google translate (translated article: [1]), or you can trust Egyptian Liberal's Arabic reading. He is a trusted user, and although he wants the image included, has not misrepresented the source. In what way is "the source of the image" not "verifiable"? Ocaasi (talk) 21:52, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Ocaasi, What's the problem with using this image [2]? I love it, it's from a reliable source and there is nothing to translate. I'd like to point out that this image File:Khalid-Saeed.jpg is not the same as this image [3]. The second one is a photo of two women holding posters and a flower. Do you see the difference?

Any time you want to use a non-free image, you have to follow Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guidelines and fill out the information required on the tags that go with it Wikipedia:File copyright tags/Non-free. This is a minimum requirement that I'm sure you still remember. :) In this case, if you want to use the ones from Arabic sources, you'll be working across languages, and if you're also going to use that image as a credible source to justify its use in a controversial article on an English language Wikipedia, verifiable means that when you click on the link, you should be able to verify things required on the tags. Can you verify any information by looking at this link [4]? Can you tell who the author is? If not, you need to provide all the information in the appropriate sections by translating into English and including a summary on the tags. This allows any other English speaker to use your image on Wikipedia. There is an element of trust that your representation and translation is accurate, but any other bilingual user can go back and check it.
Also, my claim is that we should not publish the photo from Masrawy due to copyright reasons. I have no idea what the arrangement is between the family and other publishers. I have been begging you to provide an acceptable image from an acceptable source. I can't wait to see what you come up with! :-)

The one site that I personally know and can say without a doubt is a RS is . I have no idea about the other sites. I mostly read Dostor, Shorouk News,, BBC arabia, Alarabiya and aljazeera when it news written in arabic so I cant tell you about the others. Sorry I couldnt be more helpful. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 00:19, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I am so glad the we finally get to keep the picture. Thank you you so much and to everyone one how fought to keep it (especially Sliver). BTW, did we beat some sorta of record in arguing to keep this picture? just a thought -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 04:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Image making

An image that maps the process following the 2011 Egyptian Constitutional Referendum if the result is Yes or No.

I was wondering if you could help out with this. A constitutional referendum will be held soon in Egypt, and the image here describes what would follow either result. It's in Arabic, and I've been working with another editor to translate it to English. We've put that in annotations on the image's Commons page [5]. But I can't handle anything beyond Paint, and we want to create a completely new image in English. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 19:54, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd love to, but Image making is beyond my skillset. You can ask at any of these: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Images_and_Media, Wikipedia:Graphic_Lab, or Wikipedia:WikiProject_Media_Restoration. Either post on the talk page or contact one of the editors listed. I'm sure someone will be interested. Ocaasi (talk) 20:04, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
I hate to bother you but can you ask to do it? my laptop battery is running low and I dont have access to electricity at the moment. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 23:23, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
Sure, will do. No bother on this end either, k? Ocaasi (talk) 00:28, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanks a lot dude. Shit is crazy right now in Egypt. Almost beat up 3 members of the Muslim Botherhood and 2 Salafis yesterday only. They have been harassing the shit outta anyone who dares disagree with me and talk to ppl about voting No. Hopefully, ppl will vote no today and I can take a my flight and go back to work (I dont work in Egypt).
Thanks again for the support. The article need major work. I gonna try to work on it as much as I can before going to vote. Hope other editor will help there too. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 04:26, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me about the support thingy, I didnt know you could do it. People have asked be to before but I did not there was a rule against it. I am going to try to help with Khaled's article. Let me know if you need certain information that might not be available in English and I will see if I can find them. I hope we can get to GA son. I actually asked for peer view a while ago to see what needs to be done. BTW, I know the outcome of the referendum didnt go my way so the next 2 yrs (Not 6 months) are going to pretty crazy in Egypt. I am a bit freaked out to tell you the truth but still hopeful. I left Egypt after I voted and went back to work in the country where I live -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 04:32, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Chiropractic Research to support my statements

  • Ocaasi, I have what I believe is the evidence that you suggested was needed to support my objection to the post on chiropractic that " A systematic review found that the risk of death from manipulations to the neck outweighs the benefits." This is the opinion of one person that is not supported by the research. By this study's own admission less than 40 deaths in almost 100 years can even be possible suggested to be connected to manipulation. Of these, many were not even performed by chiropractors. This should be weighed against the benefits of care that are reported billions and billions of times over. The statement that the risk of death "by far outweighs the benefits" is both subjective and not supported by the overwhelming research. If you would take the risk of stroke from neck manipulation and compare that to the risk of death from falling down the stairs using this same hypothesis, one would have to conclude that the risk of death from walking down stairs by far outweighs that benefits. Obviously, this is ridiculous. Anyway, enough of my ranting. Here are more PEER-REVIEWED RESEARCH ARTICLES supporting my case:
  • Evidence Report:

Behavioral and Physical Treatments for Tension-type and Cervicogenic Headache Douglas C. McCrory, MD, MHSc Donald B. Penzien, PhD Vic Hasselblad, PhD Rebecca N. Gray, DPhil Duke University Evidence-based Practice Center Center for Clinical Health Policy Research 2200 W. Main Street, Suite 230 Durham, NC 27705

  • SPINE Volume 33, Number 4S, pp S176–S183

©2008, Lippincott Williams & Wilkins Risk of Vertebrobasilar Stroke and Chiropractic Care Results of a Population-Based Case-Control and Case-Crossover Study J. David Cassidy, DC, PhD, DrMedSc,*†‡ Eleanor Boyle, PhD,* Pierre Coˆte´, DC, PhD,*†‡§ Yaohua He, MD, PhD,* Sheilah Hogg-Johnson, PhD,†§ Frank L. Silver, MD, FRCPC,¶_ and Susan J. Bondy, PhD†


INITIATED WITH CHIROPRACTIC DOCTOR VS MEDICAL DOCTOR/DOCTOR OF OSTEOPATHY AS FIRST PHYSICIAN: EXPERIENCE OF ONE TENNESSEE-BASED GENERAL HEALTH INSURER Richard L. Liliedahl, MD,a Michael D. Finch, PhD,b David V. Axene, FSA, FCA, MAAA,a and Christine M. Goertz, DC, PhDc ABSTRACT Objective: The primary aim of this study was to determine if there are differences in the cost of low back pain care when a patient is able to choose a course of treatment with a medical doctor (MD) versus a doctor of chiropractic (DC), given that his/her insurance provides equal access to both provider types. Methods: A retrospective claims analysis was performed on Blue Cross Blue Shield of Tennessee’s intermediate and large group fully insured population between October 1, 2004 and September 30, 2006. The insured study population had open access to MDs and DCs through self-referral without any limit to the number of visits or differences in copays to these 2 provider types. Our analysis was based on episodes of care for low back pain. An episode was defined as all reimbursed care delivered between the first and the last encounter with a health care provider for low back pain. A 60 day window without an encounter was treated as a new episode. We compared paid claims and risk adjusted costs between episodes of care initiated with an MD with those initiated with a DC. Results: Paid costs for episodes of care initiated with a DC were almost 40% less than episodes initiated with an MD. Even after risk adjusting each patient’s costs, we found that episodes of care initiated with a DC were 20% less expensive than episodes initiated with an MD. Conclusions: Beneficiaries in our sampling frame had lower overall episode costs for treatment of low back pain if they initiated care with a DC, when compared to those who initiated care with an MD. (J Manipulative Physiol Ther 2010;xx:1-4)

  • CHIRO Study Wins Best Paper Award

By Editorial Staff The Bishop, et al., "Chiropractic Hospital-based Interventions Research Outcomes (CHIRO) Study: A Randomized Controlled Trial on the Effectiveness of Clinical Practice Guidelines in the Medical and Chiropractic Management of Acute Mechanical Lower Back Pain," has been selected by The Spine Journal, the official journal of the North American Spine Society, to receive the 2010 Outstanding Paper Award for Medical & Interventional Science. In a letter to Dr. Bishop notifying him of the award, Spine Journal Editor-in-Chief Eugene Carragee, MD, noted that the paper will be published in an upcoming issue of the journal and requests that Dr. Bishop present the paper from the main podium during the NASS 25th Annual Meeting, Oct. 5-9, 2010 in Orlando, Fla. Outstanding Paper presentations will take place on Oct. 7. Dr. Bishop outlined the CHIRO study model in our November 2008 issue, explaining that the project is "a series of gold-standard, research-methodology clinical trials designed to evaluate the chiropractic assessment and treatment of patients with acute or chronic cervical, thoracic or lumbosacral spine pain stratified by underlying spine pathology. These studies are being carried out in a hospital-based, tertiary-care Orthopaedic and Neurosurgical Spine Program at Canada's National Spine Institute (ICORD) in the Faculty of Medicine at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. All chiropractors have full hospital privileges [a first, according to Bishop] and work in a continuum-of-care model that involves related medical and surgical disciplines."

  • As you can see the Bishop study takes into consideration that chiropractic manipulation is, in fact, more effective and results in different outcomes compared to spinal manipulation performed by other professions. This is a serious flaw in the current study you quote on the Wikipedia page. The Bishop study is the first of it's kind comparing manipulation performed by chiropractors versus other professions. Also, this study has been recognized by the medical/research community worthy of praise and award. I believe this study is also the most recent of all studies quoted on the Wikipedia chiropractic web page.
  • As for the research that supports my stance that almost ALL Physical Therapy treatments are within the scope of practice of chiropractors, you can contact the state chiropractic boards of each state to verify my claims. The only states to my knowledge that limit the scope of chiropractors below that of physical therapists would be Michigan and Washington State. If you would like me to copy you a copy of all of the 50 state chiropractic bylaws, I will have the ACA do that. Please provide me an email address to send all of the information to.

Thank you for your time and consideration. Let me know what else I can do for you to help keep the Wikipedia chiropractic web page more accurate and up-to-date. Bill Blueter112 (talk) 03:27, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

  • Please be advised that although Ernst uses the term "chiropractic" in the title of his study, he uses examples from a variety of professions and even with that he comes up with less than 40 cases in the past 100 years.

Blueter112 (talk) 03:32, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

  • I would also suggest removing Ernst as a lead source of information. Ernst has proven a bias without justification. I would venture to guess that his publications are out numbered 5-1 coming down on the side of the safety and efficacy of manipulation. Ernst has never shown a hint of objectivity and it amazes me that Ernst gets so much acknowledgment on your website. I feel that I have provided ample support of my view and that his comments should be no more than a footnote on at the bottom of the page. At this time, it appears that his view is the mainstream. Blueter112 (talk) 03:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
  • @Blueter112, I think you should take Puhlaa's advice (on your talk page) seriously. He's a very smart chiro student with a strong scientific background. He's also a good editor here who understands policies pretty well. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:41, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Blueter112, you make a statement here:

  • "Even to that authors own conclusion, there have been less than 30 deaths attributed to manipulation. Of those stated, many were from medical doctors or physiotherapists, one was from a martial artist and another from a massage therapist that should not have been manipulating to begin with."

There are two matters here:

1. More deaths have been uncovered, but are mentioned in other sources. This isn't the only source that mentions deaths attributed to neck manipulation, nor does this one mention all of them.

2. An important source, which is a high quality review and should be used, is the following. It's the best study on the subject to date. It makes it clear that your statement is a gross exaggeration:

The graphs are interesting, especially Figure 2, where the type of practitioner was adjusted according to the findings by Terrett.

DCs were involved in a little more than 60% of all cases of injuries and deaths, and PTs were involved in less than 2% of all cases, with no deaths caused by PTs. Death occurred in 32 cases.

Before adjusting the numbers according to the findings by Terrett, it looked like DCs were involved in more cases than was actually the case. The revised figures made DCs look a very little bit better, but were still far too high. A casual glance at these numbers could lead to the partially incorrect conclusion, that manipulation, when performed by a chiropractor, is much more dangerous than when performed by other practitioners. No, that would not be entirely correct. They should be seen more as a reflexion of the fact that manipulation is most often performed by DCs.

Regardless of who performs the manipulation - the more it gets done, the greater the risk. Sooner or later someone is going to get hurt. It needs to be used much more judiciously, by whoever it is that uses it, than most DCs use it today. If a PT or MD were to use spinal manipulation in precisely the same way, extent and frequency that DCs do, they would be exposing their patients to the same risks that chiropractic patients are exposed to every day. The statistics would then reveal more injuries from PTs and MDs.

While the technique itself is potentially problematic, the attitude of most chiropractors towards it makes it doubly so when applied by them.

Here is a conclusion from the summary of the article above:

  • "The literature does not demonstrate that the benefits of MCS outweigh the risks."

Brangifer (talk) 18:02, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


I suggest you read this Flatterworld (talk) 16:13, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I responded in all places I saw this come up. I am involved in this area, but think I know what you have interpreted as collusion, and let both editors know how to approach it. If I can't give them advice without it seeming like improving their 'cover-up' it's quite difficult. If you still have questions, seek an uninvolved admin. Cheers, Ocaasi c 17:57, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Ocaasi. You have new messages at Contains Mild Peril's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

What do you think?

Ocaasi, thank you for defending my article about the list of women. :-) There's a new user editing the Egyptian Revolution page User talk:Ahmedfahmy1987 and he's making very bad edits. It may be a guy in Egypt with very poor English skills, so I don't want to revert and scare him (and start another evolution!) but would you please approach him and say something? Thanks, USchick (talk) 16:28, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

You're so sweet! But not to me :( (just kidding!!!) :-) Cheers! USchick (talk) 16:57, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Aesthetic Realism Entry

Dear Ocaasi,

Please look at the Aesthetic Realism talk page. I reverted your changes because there is a very long, contentious history with this article and we don’t want to start another edit war by making casual changes, no matter how minor, without consensus. In fact, I agree with some of your changes, as you’ll see—but we need consensus from all.

If there no objections on the talk page after a week, I usually just post a note that I'm about to make the change to give everyone a last chance, then post.

Thank you. LoreMariano (talk) 14:55, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for the delay in responding, I was not available this weekend. I will look at your comments and respond now. LoreMariano (talk) 03:30, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


If raising POV is premature, the comment is best directed to User:The Egyptian Liberal, as s/he was the first to raise it in her/his edit summary undoing my edit. Since s/he made the accusation, I felt it proper to reply.

If the category is so amorphous to incorporate some level of violence, then non-violent is probably the wrong title. Nevertheless with hundreds of dead on one side a dozen on the other, the capital described as a war zone, it takes "non-violent" to a whole new meaning (what would Gandhi think?), and makes the category sufficiently subjective to be useless. Non-violent is probably best reserved for those that were actually non-violent, e.g., Velvet Revolution: no mass violence, no deaths on either side, no war zones in the capital, etc. To label a something non-violent because it is less violent (than what? the Russian Revolution, the French Revolution) becomes a slippery slope that our categorization scheme cannot support without POV and subjectivity. Perhaps a better category would be along the lines of revolutions without the death of the head of state (clearly separating the Russian and French on the one hand from the Egyptian and Tunisian on the other) but still not requiring a death toll of zero. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:25, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Unsigned Post

Ocaasi, I just pasted in [[User talk:Ocaasi|Ocaasi]] <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Ocaasi|c]]</sup> to your unsigned April 3 (?) post on the Aesthetic Realism entry. I'm not sure that's exactly how to fix it, but I wanted it to reflect that it was your post before mine. I'm sure you have a better way of fixing it. Thanks. LoreMariano (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

NP. Thanks for the info on correct procedure. LoreMariano (talk) 22:33, 3 April 2011 (UTC)


I don't really understand what that user is doing with this account, because he claims to be editing from this IP address for "safety" but interchanges it freely with his "main" account such that its very obvious which anonymous wikipedia account he is to any casual observer. When he self-outed on my talk page I suggested this was probably not a helpful safety precaution for him & unnecessarily confusing for others, but he seems to have ignored / disagreed with this. Not really sure what to do about this beyond that but as he's either a) being unsuccessfully paranoid & juvenile (likley imho) or b) naively putting himself at risk of harm (very unlikey, but....) - either way I don't feel we should just drop the situation? Ajbpearce (talk) 22:26, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

After making edits under my nick, I read about some of the internet allegations of internet activities and associated threats and violence, so I started logging out before edits. There are some very strange associations, which I was unaware of when I started editing on this. My nick sometimes appears because I open a bunch of tabs for other edits while logged out. I then log back in to check my watchlist, then go to one of the open tabs after a break or doing something offline for a while, then go back to the open tab, which indicates I am logged out when I am not, and I forgot I logged back in somewhere else, but it is not indicated in the open tab. Also, I have my computer set to automatically log me in, and I sometimes forget to check that I am logged out. Parnaoid or not, please resepect my request for anonymity. There are some very strange warnings on blogs on this and associated subjects. Normally I would go on to the associated subjects to edit, which are also BLPs, as I did in the alternative medicine area, but not this time, after reading what is in some of the blogs. (talk) 23:12, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
Ajb, I've known the user since his start. Very smart, prolific, eccentric. It's possible that there's a connection to the BLP in question, or actual risk from outing. I previously emphasized that such editing, if ever legitimate, should only be used directly on the article that is a risk, and--of course--never from the non-sock account. Otherwise, there's no point. The user knows his actions have attracted some curious attention, and was recently blocked. This could likely run afoul of similar issues. I'm content to just let the user be reminded that there is extremely little latitude when it comes to using multiple accounts, and given a history of such accusations, there is now likely even less. I'll keep in touch if necessary. Mention at ANI/SPI would probably be premature. Ocaasi c 23:22, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Great work!

Totally awesome. Lara 00:34, 5 April 2011 (UTC)


Thanks for this! GedUK  12:39, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Aesthetic Realism

I'm not too keen on your insinuation that I'm being fleeced by the AR folk. I'll leave it to sources what is or is not happening. If you have good sources on the homosexuality issue, then great. If not, I can't take your word for it either way, since you are not an RS and you have an enormous COI, although I do respect what you have done to publicize your experience and opinions. Sources first, presumptions about other editors' motives or understanding can be left out. Cheers, Ocaasi c 06:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, if you don't want it to look like you're getting fleeced, then don't write like you are. When you write, "OL, can you provide me a link, ideally to the AR foundation's website where they maintain that people 'changing' from homosexuality to heterosexuality is still promoted, sought, or accomplished today?", then all I can say is, congratulations on missing the boat. Similarly, when you say, "It's totally possible that AR applied their philosophy to Homosexuality and then realized it was simply...a mistake," it's just flat-out wrong. They absolutely don't think it's a mistake, and they've certainly never said so. As for taking my word, I know you can't, and I said as much -- I said that rather than determining the credibility of either side you just look at the evidence. In this case, there's no source for the non-existence of something. That is, the fact that AR has never recanted or apologized for trying to cure gays speaks volumes, but how would you cite that non-existence? You can't. However, it does help an editor understand where they're coming from.
Whether you believe me or not, this group, like all other cults thinks they have the one true answer to everything, and for that reason they'll do whatever they have to to "protect" their ideology, even if that means extreme obfuscation, lying, and pointedly, misdirection. I know this from first-hand experience. No one would humor these folks much here if they were Heavens Gate or Scientologists (and in fact, Scientologists are now banned from Wikipedia, and for the exact same reasons), but the AR folks are absolutely cut from the same cloth. All mind-control groups are pretty much the same, only the doctrines are different. Any good book on cults will tell you the same thing. MichaelBluejay (talk) 07:28, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
They never recanted because they don't think it was incorrect. They did admit that it 'entered an atmosphere of anger', which they wanted to avoid... which basically means that it created a shitstorm and they dropped it (at least publicly). If there's no source, then we don't use it, cult or not. If there's no apology, then there's nothing to say, cult or not. AR doesn't have to apologize, we simply have to present what sources present. It sounds like AR doesn't apologize, since they still think that AR can change homosexuals. One of my points was that such a position is not inherently 'evil', because many people think homosexuality is aberrant. I think those people are wrong, but I don't assume they're assholes or against human rights for gays because of that. If there are quotes showing something more nefarious, provide them. We're just talking about the title, though, so it's premature at this point.
When I said, 'It's totally possible', I meant "possible" not 'sourced'. You can avoid comment on my personal opinion, since that isn't what will determine the sources anyway. As an ex-cult member, you're a terrible person to write a neutral version; it's basically trying to be the biographer of your abuser. Doesn't work. So, help present the sources and drop the rest. You're not helping by attacking neutral editors. You're just making it so that no one will end up editing the article but the die-hards, a situation you actually don't seem that opposed to if it means you get to keep hammering at AR. I don't care if they're a cult; I care what the sources say. If you don't think POV is obvious and obfuscation is apparent, then you think you're the only one who knows what delusion looks like. Don't.
AR is not heaven's gate or scientology. There are no mass suicides and no 'fair game' attacks on people who leave. There is feuding, of course, and there is PR. So what? I think it's sad that people are in cults. I think cults have common traits and they are extremely obvious to those who can spot them. You seem to think you're the only one. Still, I think our job is to present reliable sources, not to free anyone. AR is a cultish philosophy at times, I think, but I don't know that you're right that it's impossible to get straight talk from them. Lore Mariano in particular has been very forthcoming and fair. Don't create straw men or keep attacking the worst offenders when others are willing to write neutrally, some AR folk included. Ocaasi c 07:42, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Please, I really don't want to have this discussion here. As my Talk page says clearly, I don't want messages left there, so please stop leaving them. Please either discuss on the article's talk page, or email me from my website. You're also free to call me any time which can make the communication more efficient. As for your comments above, I think your comments evidence that there's still a lot that you're missing, but I'm just going to let it go. However, I will mention that the articles you dropped links to on my Talk page have actually already been on my own website for *years*, or else are on the Sources page, or else are completely worthless. For example, these are on my site:

These, and many other original source documents have been on my site for years. I hope you'll choose to learn a little bit more on the topic you're editing by browsing my site. There's tons of stuff there, in AR's own words, or in those of third parties, such as the above.

Your #6 is an article with no AR content.

You identify #'s 11 & 12 as being by AR people, but in fact #'s 7 & 8 are also by AR. The latter two are letters to the editor which unremarkable. It's helpful to see in #8 how the AR person repeatedly calls the reporter of an article a liar, because it shows the average person just how crazed the AR people are, though there's no way to use that in an article.

Your #12 is a throwaway op-ed by an AR person. They're a dime a dozen. They send letters and op-eds to newspapers all across America every week in this general format. "I was greatly affected to read about [some current event]. The great [poet|educator|historian|economist, pick one] Eli Siegel, founder of Aesthetic Realism, recognized this kind of problem when he said [blah blah blah]..."

Your #10 is already quoted extensively on the Sources page, though I just went ahead and added some more quotes anyway.

Your #11 was amusing because it has a reporter describing an Aesthetic Realist as "deranged", though again I don't know how we could use it, unless it were one if 10 footnotes we gave for the media describing AR in cultish terms. I added it to the Sources page.

If you find new, good sources, please put them on the Sources page, not a User Talk page.

Let me know (by email, or the ARTICLE's Talk page) if you'd like the text of any of the articles which were pay-walled, which I think qualifies as Fair Use. MichaelBluejay (talk) 08:27, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Less edit clutter

Hi, I saw your comment at Jimbo's talk page, I was just wondering what exactly is wrong with the less edit clutter tool? Thanks. - Kingpin13 (talk) 05:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh kingpin, you're a godsend. It won't load. It used to take all refs and put them in a separate field below the main edit window, and put all categories in a separate field, and all magic words in a special field... in short, it made markup editable by normal humans again, and then when you pressed Save it would all magically come back together into a wikified whole. Now it just doesn't boot, alone with several others in my vector.js. Ocaasi c 05:37, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Mhm, I can get it to load, what browser are you using? If you edit some random article and then replace the text in the url bar with javascript: importScript('User:Magnus_Manske/less_edit_clutter.js'); and hit enter, does it load then? - Kingpin13 (talk) 05:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I get a browser message [object HTMLScriptElement] on a blank page. I'm running Firefox 4.0 (hopefully you're not mid face-palm, are the extensions only compatible up to 3.5 or 3.6?). Ocaasi c 06:18, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Also tried in IE9 (i'm all up-to-date) and it didn't work. Ocaasi c 06:42, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Interesting. I get that error in IE8, Opera, FF4 and FF3.6, but not in Chrome 11 beta (what I use most of the time) and Safari 5. Both Safari and Chrome use WebKit, but they have different Javascript engines. I'll have a play around and see if I can get it going in Firefox. - Kingpin13 (talk) 07:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Scratch that, actually, seems to be okay with it put in my js page properly. Can you try it normally now? - Kingpin13 (talk) 07:18, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I just did a full cache clean, temp files and history on my whole system both in browser and with CCcleaner. It's the same. In fact, the only .js that's working is reftools, since your fix last week. Ocaasi c 07:44, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, if I can't replicate the problem I can't really help to fix it :(. At the moment everything seems to work for me. - Kingpin13 (talk) 13:10, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Egyptian Revolution page

What's up, I replied on the talk page. When you get a chance would be interested in your response--Babank (talk) 08:58, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


This series of edits, this, then this, are embarrassingly bad awful, especially the latter one, but the even first is just as bad since it was done with the second in mind to be done. Please accept my apologies. (talk) 03:21, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Request for more advice

It might be a good time to move on to other article subject areas, for reasons previously stated regardin use of IPs, which you might want to consider doing yourself. Someone recently started vandalizing my edits on other articles[6]. A recent edit about Freud in the bad faith article, plus self reflection stimulated by comments by you and some others, plus an inherent interest in multiple minds, multiple identities (non-individuated), near death experiences and immortality (a la John Perry of Stanford), all related to the Singularity, have stimulated me to finally get around to reading my hard copy Freud books I bought years ago, and read the giant pile of books related to the Singularity and the Extended mind in my Amazon Kindle. I only started editing at alt med because someone told me not to, as it was "too difficult", so it seemed like a good place to learn about editing (and it turned out, about editors). I have been letting L2 and associated COIs undo all the RS content I put in at TCM. Since editing on alt med articles is about as interesting and fun as arguing with a creation scientist, and editing crime BLPs is even less interesting, I fear if I leave these areas of editing and go on to what is actually fun, and not just educational about editing, I will never come back, and all the RS I gathered and put in the articles will be lost in the deletions, and the larger contexts from the intense reading will especially be lost from my own memory. Should I try to put back the deleted relevant RS content in TCM while I still remember the context and content, or just leave it and go have fun doing editing in more interesting areas? PPdd (talk) 14:27, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Your comments

Ocaasi, could you clarify whether you were referring to me as a troll on User talk:Ludwigs2? In fact Captain Occam's statement probably contravenes his extended topic ban. It was ill-advised and could affect any appeal he wishes to make to ArbCom next month. As for Ludwigs2, he has already been warned now on Wikipedia Talk:NPA by one of the drafting arbitrators not to edit that page during the AE arbcom case. You might be having lots of fun, but please don't do so at my expense. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 20:39, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Mathsci, I was playfully mocking Captain Occam's idea in isolation of real events. What Occam was suggesting is that Ludwigs become the troll magnet for Wikipedia, and he seemed to mean it seriously. I don't know you or your dispute with Ludwigs, and my comment was meant at no one's expense, except Ludwigs, who I enjoy a rib at every now and again. Cheers, Ocaasi c 20:42, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
Please be more careful in future. Captain Occam was probably breaking a topic ban and Ludwigs2 is party to an ongoing ArbCom case. Any way thanks for clarifying that. Cheers, Mathsci (talk) 20:48, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't think I encouraged or furthered any topic ban breach, and I'm not sure how the AE case bears on the isolated, humorous comment I made. It was on the talk page, for Ludwigs, in response to someone else's ridiculous idea. So, I'm not sure about that advice but still cheers, Ocaasi c 20:55, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

False Discovery Rates

Here is a short and simple paper you might find useful to use as a citation in some places. PPdd (talk) 14:44, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Very nice. Reading over it... Reminds me a bit of Simpson's paradox. Ocaasi c 15:17, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Your POV Notification on Allied Artists

Hi Ocaasi, If you get this message twice it's because my first post disappeared. Can you please weigh in on the discussion here. The ip seems to temper his tendencies with your input. His changing dynamic IP address makes it hard to communicate with him. Most people know who is doing it and some have lodged complaints about him using multiple accounts. I think he means well, but he seems to have a dog in the race on this issue. Anything you can do to help everyone reach consensus would be greatly appreciated. Cheers to you! --Warriorboy85 (talk) 18:20, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Smart watchlist

I have created a first cut at a smart watchlist. Please see User talk:UncleDouggie/smart watchlist.js. —UncleDouggie (talk) 08:47, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

RE: Check

I undid that edit. It talks about the name is certain days while the section deals with the name of the article.

Life is good. BTW, I dont live in Egypt. I wasnt even there during the revolution (even I would have loved to be there making history). I went there during the vote on the referendum so I can vote and left after I did. I was in Benghazi for a couple of days (just came back today) to try to help people there as part of a humanitarian aid. I couldnt take photos there (forgot my camera) but the protesters/rebels are very determine to get Qadaffi out of there ASAP. I also believe that the death toll is much higher than we all think (its in the 10s of thousands). Going be busy work for the next couple of days but I will a bit more free afterwards. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 05:14, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

You must have an amazing job to be able to go to Cairo for votes and to stop in Benghazi for aid. Did you feel safe there? Dumb question: any language barrier between you and Libyans? You mean '10s of thousands' for the death toll in Libya, not Egypt, right? It wouldn't surprise me if it was very high. War is brutal, chaotic, and devastating. Do you think we're doing enough/too much to help them (we = US/NATO)? Okay, enough questions if you need distracting from your work... Ocaasi c 06:02, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
I get to work on accounts so I have some free time on hand and this year I have been traveling more than ever (last year I travelled only once, this 6 times so far). I went to Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and some other countries. I was in Tunisia when ben Ali stepped down.
It was pretty safe taking everything in account. You question is not dumb; They do speak in a different way then Egyptian do but luckly I speak in most arabic accents so it wasnt a problem for me beside, ppl in Benghazi speak differently then ppl in Tripoli so it was easier to understand them.
The number I mentioned is about Libya. is nato doing enough/too much? well, it depends who u ask really. ppl are spilt on it. some didnt want "western" powers to get interfere while other want nato to arm the rebel. my opinion on the matter is that they fucked up when they decided to pick up weapons (turning it into an armed uprising). Wether the Nato is doing enough/too much I cant/couldnt really tell. What really pissed them off is when ppl call what's going on there a civil war. PS: Most of the protesters in MENA tho hope that the US will stop supporting Saudi Arabia and that the Iranian and Saudi regimes will fall soon. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 06:36, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Really! Crazy stuff going on. More violent protests, then the speech and corruption hearing, a heart attack, and now an arrest! Is all of this destabilizing or motivating or both? Ocaasi c 09:48, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
Motivating. I honestly didnt think I would live to see the day when Mubarak/Gamal are not in power little alone face trail. Seeing them behind bars will be the icing on the top the cake. But the clash with the army honestly freaked me out (cant tell what really happened during Friday night). The only good thing that can come out of it is if the army needs to hand its power over to a presidential council. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 12:43, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Arrested UAE blogger accused of possessing alcohol

Egypt blogger gets three years in jail for insulting the military
What's going on in UAE? They are like the stablest of the stable (at least for ME). I thought there was enough oil money sloshing around the population that people were not so keen on rocking the boat. Ocaasi c 15:39, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

RE: Baredei

Sorry, I was confused. I thought it was the part about the MB's support not ElBaredei. I trust it and you can re-add it if you want however you think. The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 16:33, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I know yamaha. I didnt know he had released it under that license otherwise, I would have upload it myself :D sure, go ahead and add it and ask him not to license (He sometimes does)-- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 15:25, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Unrelated to above: Can you update the Mubarak's page (more sources and a sentence or two more) and help us edit Trials and judicial hearings following the 2011 Egyptian revolution. Thanks -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 15:30, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Invitation to take part in a pilot study

I am a Wikipedian, who is studying the phenomenon on Wikipedia. I need your help to conduct my research on about understanding "Motivation of Wikipedia contributors." I would like to invite you to a short survey. Please give me your valuable time, which estimates only 5 minutes. cooldenny (talk) 19:07, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


You have new message/s Hello. You have a new message at User talk:UncleDouggie/smart watchlist.js's talk page. Leaving this as you might miss it on your poor old unadorned watchlist. :-) —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:58, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I writhe in envy. Damn you new-watchlisters! Ocaasi c 08:00, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you

Hi, thank you for your very kind comments about me at Lambanog's talk page. You are right with what you say there. Thank you though for saying it. To be honest, I needed to see a comment like yours right about now. Thanks again, --CrohnieGalTalk 13:55, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

No problem. The AE case seems to have shaken up a lot of old quarrels. Not much useful coming of it. Ocaasi c 15:17, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Sad to say but I agree. --CrohnieGalTalk 16:32, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Suzanne Segal

The references need clean up, which I believe you acknowledged in the edit summary while creating the article. First of all, the Washington Times reference seems to be the content of the deleted article. It is a mirror and cannot be used as a reliable source.

Also, the book references should be cleaned up. I highly suggest using the ref toolbar. Take a minute or two and read about it and you should find it a lot easier to use. Also, to repeat existing refs, check this out Wikipedia:Referencing_for_beginners#Same_reference_used_more_than_once.

Thanks. --CutOffTies (talk) 19:26, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips. Especially the WT issue. I'll look into that, as I didn't realize newspaper topic pages could be mirrored like that! References need work, I wanted to get the page into the mainspace once the image was uploaded and notability had been met (in my opinion). Ocaasi c 19:28, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Yeah a google search on the Washington Times content shows the same content in a Facebook result which obviously is a mirror. I believe I've seen other newspapers do the same thing. Oh, and after I wrote you, I noticed that you're an experienced editor probably already aware on how to clean up the refs, sorry about that. --CutOffTies (talk) 19:37, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
No prob, the refs don't look very experienced, but they were much faster that way! Thanks again, Ocaasi c 19:39, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Ocaasi, Here is another link that may be of interest. Use EDIT/FIND..Segal to get to the text of this page (about half way down the PAGE). I didn't know where this may fit in.

I also put the pages for her graduation of Ph.D. in Psychology (1991) following WLU's delete message. I called the school and asked for the alumni records. WLU would/should reintegrate the school. The school is in wikipedia Wright Institute. I added her to the notable alumni list. I really like the work you have done. Cheers Vanlegg (talk) 21:51, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the note

Hello... thanks for your note, and for the work at Chuck. Unfortunately, the fan petition issue surfaces quite frequently when a series - especially one that is sci-fi or similar in nature - is on the edge or cancelled. The general practice is to avoid mentions of these campaigns until such time as they demonstrate independent notability. (This was the case at Jericho as well.) In the case of Chuck, the first petition became notable when it succeeded in sustaining the series. However, this one has yet to grow beyond merely a fan action. Cheers. --Ckatzchatspy 20:39, 18 April 2011 (UTC)


Ocaasi, Here is another link that may be of interest. Use EDIT/FIND..Segal to get to the text of this page (about half way down the PAGE). I didn't know where this may fit in.

I also put the pages for her graduation of Ph.D. in Psychology (1991) following WLU's delete message. I called the school and asked for the alumni records. WLU would/should reintegrate the school. The school is in wikipedia Wright Institute. I added her to the notable alumni list. I really like the work you have done. Cheers Vanlegg (talk) 21:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)


Hello sir this is sathya..That kalavai is one of the city near to my village...This weekend i am going to my village...I ll collect some more information about my village.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sathyapulse (talkcontribs) 16:39, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I had updated some of the information about my village..see them too — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sathyapulse (talkcontribs) 17:50, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

commons problem

Can you please give your opinion to here? The want to delete the image of the protesters holding an image of Khaled Mohamed Saeed-- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 18:56, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Where is the image from? Where is it being used? Ocaasi c 19:41, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Okay, I see. Commons has no fair use--at all. If necessary we can upload it to Wikipedia, most likely. I'll try to make an argument there. Ocaasi c 19:54, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

For all your hard work...

Barnstar of Reversion2.png The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
I hereby recognize you, Ocaasi, for all your anti-vandalism work and continued use of the STiki tool. You've classified over 4,000 edits!

Additional thanks for watching my talk page(s) and all the suggestions you've put forth.

While I personally thank you for your support, you've also done a lot of good for the community in the process.

Keep up the good work, West.andrew.g (talk) 04:56, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Pleasure, Mr. West. It didn't take a machine-learning algorithm to recognize that your role in the community would be a great asset. I've just done what I could to facilitate that. Cheers! Ocaasi c 10:48, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Finalizing Subheadings?

Hi Ocassi. I like that Barnstar!

I have three quick questions:

1) Do you know why the the date stamp is not changing on your last post to the Aesthetic Realism talk page?

2) Are we ready to finalize/post subheading edits?

1. Philosophy
1.1 Major texts
2. Poetry and Aesthetic Realism
3. History
3.1 Lectures and classes by Eli Siegel
3.2 Aesthetic Realism and the The arts
3.3 Aesthetic Realism Foundation
3.4 Aesthetic Realism and Approach to homosexuality, assertion people changed to heterosexuality, and controversy
3.5 Victim of the Press
4. Aesthetic Realism and the opposition to prejudice and Ending racism
5. Criticism and response
6. Footnotes
7. References
8. External Links

3) Finally, do you think we need a rouge admin? The Wikipedia Information Team offered to get us one. I declined, saying that there was no longer a dispute going on about the edit I objected to. Do you agree or do you think I should request that a rouge admin be assigned?

Thanks for all your help! LoreMariano (talk) 21:14, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Reply to your very courteous and highly appreciated message at Doc James Talk Page

I revised my statement, per your suggestions. Sorry about that. I've been going thru this Kindergarten-type crap for months now, and its really a bad deal. Thanks again, though, for watching out for me.

Your grateful friend: Cliff L. Knickerbocker, MS (talk) 02:18, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Wanted to Say Good-Bye :-)

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Given the events of recent weeks, I have decided to leave Wikipedia, but before I go, I first wanted to tell you folks - my Wikifriends - goodbye.

When I came here, my goal with to write the best articles I could on all 45 or so recognized histological variants of lung cancer. There's no one else writing on these articles much, and with the new targeted therapies being highly linked to histological variants, I think these topics are some of the most important in cancer medicine.

I completed (90+% anyway) two articles that, content-wise, were as good as any paper out there. Yeah, they were kind of "Wiki-stinky" due to formatting, but they used every single paper I could find on the subjects. I'm proud of those, and intend to find some sort of other "online repository" like Wikipedia where I can work without some "linguistics nut", User:Kwamikagami, spending half his waking hours sticking dashes and such willy-nilly throughout my article titles, DIAMETRICALLY against EVERY international naming standard for lung malignancies in use since the Earth's crust cooled!

My tormentor won't seek consensus, or compromise, nor even debate with any degree of intellectual honesty. I'm SO ENRAGED about his crap every single day that I just cannot take it any more. The last "vote" on the issue in question was like 8-2 in my favor, yet the man tells me there was "clear consensus in his favor", or some idiocy like that, and refuses to do anything but keep screwing up the articles and refusing to clean up his mess.

He is a honcho, and I'm a flunky, so I'm just screwed. Thus I'm going to go elsewhere, I guess, and try there, because it would take me so much time to fight this out that, by then, I could have all 45 articles researched, drafted, completed, proofed, posted, and updated 63 times.

I wish all of you who stood by me the very, very best. I hope to hear from you down the road, if you ever want to yak about anything, or work together in some way. My e-mail is, my phone is 618-922-3918.

Best of luck, and THANKS VERY MUCH for all your courtesy and help.

Good luck, Kwami - I hope getting your frickin' hyphens in all the cancer articles is worth it to you, and I hope you feel like you have done a FINE service to the community, and to the readers wanting info on these diseases, which KILL MILLIONS EVERY YEAR. Doubt if having a hyphen in there will reduced the mortality rate much, but HEY - you are the know-it-all, so YOU do the math. I'm sure that patients and researchers would NEVER have figured what disease they had, or were researching, without those precious hyphens you just INSIST are so critical to avoid "misunderstanding". Truck load of bovine dung THAT is, with all due respect sir. Enjoy!

With deep regret, I remain

Your friend and admirer: Cliff L. Knickerbocker, MS (talk) 03:14, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

You're Right on All That

I gotta get to bed, will post you tomorrow (and the same message to several others).

Just really quick though - I *know* I don't own the articles, what I *meant* was I have expanded the total content in that area (not counting lung cancer - just the variant forms) by probably 10 times, and increased quality. His arguments are TRUE vis-a-vis the punctuations, but they are trivial - nobody is going to make any mistake with or without the hyphen. He's just an egotist who wants to throw around his petty power. Its CRAP. I want to make the greatest lung cancer resource in the world, he wants to be an ass. Period.

Anyway, sorry you got involved. And I use caps for EMPHASIS :-) Know I shouldn't, but have been for 40 years.

Good night! TTYL.

Your buddy: Cliff L. Knickerbocker, MS (talk) 03:20, 21 April 2011 (UTC)


Hi again - I am now very confused about the messages I am receiving and not sure how to interpret them- including one that said 'behavioural guideline'- did i not follow a guideline? also, there is an error on the original talk page- not sure how to correct it? In addition, should I change my user name?

As a non-techie person I am really completely confused. Is there anywhere i can sign in to have a real time coversation as we were doing before?

Also not sure if I am signing my name correctly. I am just adding the four tildes. Hope that's right,

Sstarkman (talk) 16:02, 21 April 2011 (UTC)


Note. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 10:35, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I have a question about this edit, specifically the comment "Actually, seeing the way you slice and tear at less-than-optimally sourced claims, it makes perfect sense". I'm not sure you mean it as a compliment, a criticism or a wry nod to our very different editing styles. I like to know about compliments, reflect on criticisms (particularly from experienced editors whose opinion I respect) and if it's the third then I have nothing to say but for noting my agreement. The community's mores shift over time, this is mostly my own way of judging those shifts. It's not a trick question or a set-up or anything, I'm genuinely curious. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 18:37, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
I meant it with extreme good-faith humor. You're tough about sources in the interest of quality (or one way to get to it). Just an image of you tearing apart a crappy article covered in OR/SYNTH demon blood made me smile. Ocaasi c 18:40, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Well now I'm flattered. AND I DON'T EVER HAVE TO CHANGE!!!!!!!!! YAY FOR MEEEEEE!!!!! Thanks for the clarification. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 19:27, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Monitor Group

Hello, Ocaasi. I have finished researching and writing a new single section covering all of the same material in the two sections in the Monitor Group article, and I have posted it on the Talk page.[7] I have very carefully formatted the citations, and because the material was so long, I learned about "collapse boxes" and both the current and proposed versions of this material are now there. While my version is considerably shorter in length, I think it concisely covers all of the same ground, without going off track into needless details. Your help is really appreciated. Thanks, CanalPark (talk) 14:03, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, I saw your note on my page. I am looking forward to your input and that of other editors as well. (I have now watchlisted the Monitor page as well, good tip.) CanalPark (talk) 21:54, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

RE: Updates and Wael

Not really. They say that they are with the revolution but they want people to stop protesting :S and the media keeps attacking the activists. For example, during the Zamalek SC, they claimed that the Football Hooligans were the protesters and this what revolution is all about, chaos. so that claim on the article is bullshit. I saw the wael's thing. He also joined IMF discussion panel few days ago were he took a shit on it and its director general, Dominique Strauss Kahn. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 16:33, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Re: Photo Haim Aharon Valero

Thank you for inserting the photoRonvail (talk) 19:49, 22 April 2011 (UTC)


Please note that I mean or want to suggest that you were the editor that I was referring in my comment here. --Ronz (talk) 15:56, 23 April 2011 (UTC)


I have not edited on Wikipedia yet but my question being if i make an edit with reliable sources and someone disagrees by reverting it back to articles original form and possibly reporting me and it.(Duceober (talk) 23:45, 23 April 2011 (UTC))

To me this doesn’t seem fair if content contained reliable sources and I do not think I should be reported. As I would have only been trying to contribute to article. Also wandered why it is when certain other people get to make edits and it stays on article. (Duceober (talk) 23:45, 23 April 2011 (UTC))

Yet if i was to make edit it seems to be a completely different matter and it is got rid of. I sometimes think it is a waste of my time trying to contribute toWikipedia yet i should be able to like any of other people who contents stays on articles. (Duceober (talk) 23:45, 23 April 2011 (UTC))


The problem is though, that the serious news sources are prohibited from reporting on this. I do see your point. I don't have any interest in the sex lives of celebrities. I edited the article to include that information because I wanted to undermine the super-injunction by ensuring its failure to suppress the information, as I am fundamentally opposed to any obstacles to free speech, no matter how trivial the information being suppressed. I chose Wikipedia as it is open for editing by anyone and reaches the widest audience I could hope for, but I understand that it may not be the appropriate venue.-- (talk) 13:00, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

"Right church, wrong pew"
Wikipedia is only going to permit information that is reported in reliable sources. We don't add scoops; we only repeat other sources; we're a tertiary information providor. So, you need to campaign to newspapers, and so on - if they print it, we'll print it. But, if there is no reliable source, we will not - and especially regarding living person. Please be very aware of that; adding controversial facts about living people, without a solid reliable source, may result in a block. Thanks,  Chzz  ►  13:29, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

User talk:Arthurwolf

This new user has replied to your comments and help re. Don_Richardson_(missionary) on eir talk page, User talk:Arthurwolf#Don_Richardson_(missionary).  Chzz  ►  23:42, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the update! I am a bit busier than usual having been working the IRC help channel. Ocaasi c 00:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Andrew Peach

Andrew Peach is only a freelance newsreader on BBC Radio 2. He only covers shifts. Ricky Salmon is a daytime reader, usually in during the week and weekends. Andrew Peach doesn't have a regular slot. He should be put in evenings. -- (talk) 11:52, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

RE: Hey

  • I have no idea what's wrong with my talk page.
  • I took them out due to space issue (Not because I am trying to claim the the revolution was non-violent). You can add any of them if you find a place for it. I was thinking about maybe expanding the The military's role section and maybe adding the picture of the burning truck there.
  • I am not working on anything really at the moment. I was out last night and I am still a bit hung over. I might work a bit on Timeline of the 2011 Egyptian revolution up to the resignation of Mubarak and see what needs to be done to get it to GA.
  • I fixed the deadlinks issue on Khaled Mohamed Saeed. The 2011 Egyptian revolution still has two deadlinks (I fixed the others) that I cant fix. Maybe you can. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 08:32, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
It was a vandal responding to your revert on the revolution page. I undid it and reported to ARV.
Sorry to insinuate you had motives. I know you care about the perception that the revolution was primarily non-violent (as do I). The picture of the burning vehicle is beautiful, in a horrific way, although it doesn't do much to show off Egypt or actual events. But it's very high quality.
Nothing like a good hangover to take the edge of a few revolutions, eh? I don't have to tell you, the Egyptian, but hydrate. Ocaasi c 08:35, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
The truck picture was talking on the 9 of April. The night of the 8th of chaotic. There are different reports about what happened during that evening. Next day was even worse.
I think Timeline of the 2011 Egyptian revolution since the resignation of Mubarak needs major updates to cover the recent. I tried to get other editor to work on it so I wont be the only one working on it (people would claim that I am pushing my own POV). Maybe you can find some editors that are willing to work on it. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 09:02, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm leaning towards working on the main article and Saeed and Bouazizi. So many articles! Don't worry too much about POV. If you're the one doing the work, you get to have the POV! (just kidding). Ocaasi c 09:07, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
LOL. Right now I am being accused of having motives in ITN because I nominated news about Egypt. I ended up doing for the last two days (Friends' birthdays); Hopefully will finish fixing the deadlink issue on the main article and maybe fix some of the issues on the timeline pre-Mubarak resignation. If you have the time, I would if you would right an intro in timeline pre-Mubarak resignation article, if not let me know and I will give you a draft and we will see if its good. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 07:49, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
I fixed the two worst dead links in the Gamal succession section. I think there are two more that just weren't loading. My instinct for timeline articles is to be pretty brief in the introduction. Perhaps just a sketch of the timeframe:
From 2000 to 2010, Hosni Mubarak was in power under Emergency Law with his son Gamal appearing the likely successor to the presidency. In 2010 protests in Tunisia sparked by the death of Mohamed Bouaziziturned into a revolution. The death of Khaled Saeed in June of that year became a similar rallying point for activists in Egypt. Increasing use of social media among activists centered around plans for a nationwide protest on January 25th.
Millions turned out to major cities in Egypt on the 25th, especially in Cairo's Tarir square. At first tensions were high between the police and protesters with violence breaking out in Suez and Alexandria. The government took a hard line, using riot-control tactics, and shutting down communications. But by the 28th the protest were continuing and the police had retreated. The security role was taken over by the military, and from then on the situation remained almost entirely peaceful. As pressure rose on Mubarak, the scale of the protests continued to grow, especially on specially organized Friday rallies. Mubarak initially made small changes such as as dissolving the parliament, agreeing to oversee a process of reform, and not to run for reelection in September. Protesters were not satisfied and by February 8th there were widespread calls for Mubarak's resignation. On the night of February 10th Mubarak gave a speech in which people expected he would step down. Anger erupted when he only stated plans to delegate some of his power. By the next day, February 11th, he had resigned.
I'm sure that could be expanded or detailed a bit better, but for me that is the gist: 2000-2010, Tunisia, Saeed, Jan 25, police replaced by military, resignation. Am I missing points in there? Ocaasi c 08:20, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
I think that pretty much covers is it. go ahead and add it. BTW, did you talk yamaha on flickr? I also would like it if you gave your opinion about my nomination in ITN -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 09:51, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
I talked to yamaha on flickr briefly, but just about the Wael pic on the bridge pic. I didn't ask him about this one yet: but it's license compatible right now. I just asked if he knew you on Flickr, and he said yes. 12:14, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Can see if those edits ([8] and [9]) are right? -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 17:38, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

I checked them earlier. They're very good. Maybe the best I've seen. On topic. Perfectly sourced. Relevant. Aljazeera English an Almasry. And she removed silly reporting on state alleged Google bias. The only problem is that it makes the section longer and it's not supposed to have much content since it's just a summary. There's no way she's a new editor. Ocaasi c 17:41, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Cool because last time I took out the google non-sense, I had few editor claiming I was biased so I am glad someone else didit. My only take on it is that of yours (The length). Even if she new, she is good. BTW, you should go ahead add your draft to the page (I would add myself but I dont want the credit) -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 17:57, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking about taking out the "National Police Day protests" section from the main article about the revolution and merging with "25 January – Day of Revolt" section in the Timeline of the 2011 Egyptian revolution up to the resignation of Mubarak article. Osa osa mentioned it few days ago and I think its a great idea. Your thoughts? -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 16:28, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

No problem. I'm not sure about this one... You mean take it out, merge it, and put it in the timeline; or merge it with the timeline and keep it in the main article?... I think it's relevant to the main article? I think it should of course also be in the timeline as well, but I wouldn't see taking it out of the main article except for length reasons? Maybe you can explain the idea a bit. Ocaasi c 20:21, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
"take it out, merge it, and put it in the timeline". The reasons behind it is length and its part of the timeline (the 25th of Jan is no different than 28 of Jan). -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 10:31, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Ok. There's a difference between the planning for the NPD day protest and the day itself. Let's put the planning in the lead-up section and only the actual protest part which happened on the 25th in the timeline. That's my approach to it. Does that make sense for what you were thinking? Ocaasi c 10:38, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
It makes sense to me. Do you have a draft in mind? -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 20:07, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Cenk Uygur

I'm trying to find a free image of Cenk Uygur. I saw you have some experience from the Bouazizi page so maybe you could help me find one please? Thanks Pass a Method talk 18:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I found those two:

Hope it helps -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 20:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Egy, I did a pretty thorough search and reported it on Passa's talk page. Lots of good images but none good and copyright compliant.

Fractional reserve banking

Hi i tried to find a method to contact you but then got sidetracked.

In the first instance if you can read the following main FRB page and let me know if it written with npov it would help me. The text begins in fact a few sentences earlier in the money creation section

earlier section.

Relevant earlier text

"When a loan is made by the commercial bank (which keeps only a fraction of the central bank money as reserves), using the central bank money from the commercial bank's reserves, the m1 money supply expands by the size of the loan.[6] This process is called deposit multiplication."

In practice and completely avoiding Rothbardism, when a bank creates a loan the banking system contemporaneously or with a delay, creates new deposits in the banking system via interbank loans where often no actual reserves is passed between the banks.

For example i offer you a loan of 100 without having 100 and you buy a radio from a customer at a bank and i borrow the 100 at libor from the other bank so that i have now created a deposit of 100 in the banks favour. I was due to pass the bank 100 reserves but they agreed a loan and my recorded deposit for them is a loan to me. Due to netting, no money had to be passed between us. If later i pass them 100, their deposit can be cancelled.

Therefore the relending model totally misrepresents standard practices between banks. Nobody on wiki is interested in this and i all i and other have got is fringe wacko labels - dispite the central bank citations.

I have answered with different detail on the fringe page


AndrewAndrewedwardjudd (talk) 08:40, 28 April 2011 (UTC)andrewedwardjudd

Andrew Peach - AGAIN

If we are insisting on having Andrew Peach on the list of daytime newsreaders on the Radio 2 Wiki page, then maybe we should include Ricky Salmon in that list too and not push ricky to the evening list. Ricky Salmon does more shifts than Andrew at Radio 2. Andrew is only there as cover when Ricky or any other reader is off sick. We can prove this by contacting Alan Dedicoat who is in charge of announcers at Radio 2. is his email address. I don't mind doing the deed of emailing him to prove this is correct. Andrew is mainly based at BBC Berkshire. We have had issues before where he editied his own page to big himself up. Lets not make this a "create and change your own page" site. As it is, it states on his page he is on 5 Live, when he only covered ONE show. (talk) 12:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)


Any thoughts on Hamas/Fatah? [10] Cheers, Ocaasi c 20:11, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Im glad they finally did it. Hamas will loose the next election maybe Fatah also; a 3rd party might win. Israel needs to agree on the two state solution or they are going to go to war with many arab nations not now, but soon -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 02:38, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
What would the third party look like? A student-led, progressive center party, secularist/moderate and focused on peaceful demands, like in Egypt? I thought Israel's statement that it's Hamas or them was really dumb. It's just a stalling strategy to keep the country cut in half. Israel should say, 'The Arab world is changing, and we welcome the change. We want to negotiate with the entire Palestinian people, not a group that only represents a fraction of them. And we want to honor the negotiations so long as the process remains peaceful and violence is denounced by all sides.' Instead they are pitting the future of Arab democracy against themselves. I know they're paranoid, but it's not helping.
When you said that Israel faces the prospect of war with many Arab nations, that sounds extremely ominous, especially coming from you. What would drive that foreign policy? Insistence on Palestinian reforms? How do the internal politics of the peaceful, moderate groups inside Egypt interact with the I-P issue. I figured that the young secularists would be insistent on a peaceful solution regarding Palestine, but not in the same approach as the farther-right Islamic groups. Or is that actually a common ground for them--opposition to Israel? You know that Israel does not bluff. They don't respond to threats. They're not worried about war--never have been--they accept it. They're worried about Arab unity and strength mixed with opposition. They'll pre-empt whatever possible allegiances than can. But it looks like Arab countries are not going to let that happen so easily. So how does this play out?
Hopefully thinks will move gradually. I'd like to see Egypt have 1-2 years of semi-stable democracy before Palestine has their big wave of change. I know that sounds a bit... unfair, but I do care about the stability issues as much as I want to see change. I think Israel will be less likely to overreact if most things happen not too quickly. In the past, Israel played the leaders against the people (Egypt) or the people against the leaders (Iran). I actually think Israel's most strategic approach (short-term) is to play pro-democracy Arabs against the remaining regimes in Saudi and Iran, hoping that those leaders will instead prefer a backdoor alliance with Israel, in an attempt to prevent further uprisings or opposition.
So, two state solution... Is Egypt in a position to broker that deal? Would their military ever step foot in Gaza, as part of a binational peacekeeping force with Jordan, or something like that? Ocaasi c 02:53, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
There will not a single clear in the election. It will be rather a unite government made of small parties where Fatah has 45% Hamas 15 % and the rest of small parties. The overall shape will progressive center party, secularist/moderate and focused on freeing Palestine (ie two state solution - back to the pre-67 map). The reason they agreed to the deal is because of protests in West back and Gaza demanding their unite otherwise they would have had an uprising against both Hamas and Fatah. The protests was lead by the youth there.
I know the Arab-Israel war sounds extremely ominous but its the truth. The right wing is Israel makes the tea party seem like sane people. Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu is a moron, just ask bill clinton. Both of the extremists in Israel and MENA need each other to exist; if one is gone, the other will go too. One of Al-Qaeda biggest rallying point is Israel even tho the majority of there attacks are not there. Al-Qaeda doesnt give a flying fuck about Palestine but it helps them gather support. While on the other side, You have people in Israel who wants to take over the West back and other parts of the middle east. The problem is none of those motherfuckers ever die, its usually innocent people like Vittorio Arrigoni who pay the price. Let me put it this way, right now The Egyptian army will not get involved in a war with Israel not most of the MENA armies There is no war without Egypt, no peace without Syria. But in the near future if something happened like 2008 Gaza crisis, people might go to war. I hope and pray that someone is Israel will push for the peace agreement with the Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine soon and understand that its will be in Israel and America best interest to have a peaceful, free, and democratic middle east.
Many people mistake secularists in MENA for peaceful people. Some of Islamists I know are more peaceful than some of secularists. They would go to war but not for any religious reasons. Gamal Abdel Nasser was secular and he fight every few yrs. I think the only country that fought more than US since WWII until the early 2000s is Egypt.
As how it will play out, that's easy. Let's say Boat is going to head for Gaza, Israel attacks the boat and kills few ppl. People get angry in Gaza and fire rockets. Israel Attacks Gaza because of the rockets. Arabs get pissed off about the attack on Gaza. Arabs decided to go to war with Israel. To make sure that America will not get involved, they will say will cut off the oil. Thanks to the lack of regulation in Wall St., Oil prices will go to an all time high. The cost of fulling a car in The usa will be more than what workers get paid per day. People will not be able to go to work in The USA. The economy is almost gonna collapse. America tries to talk to the Arabs and ask them not fight. Arabs will demand a free Palestine. Now, here were is gets interesting. If America refuses, war will happen, if America agrees, no war. At least that's how I think it will play out. Almost like chess game.
As far the change, it reminds of the Revolutions of 1989, Tunisia is Poland, Egypt is East Germany and Mubarak is Berlin Wall. Whatever happens next will anyone guess.
As for Egypt's role in peace between P and I, we are going to play a big part of it if both all parties want our help. But for the deal to really work, the deal will also need to deal with Syria and Lebanon. I just hope it happens before the end of this yr and next for the sake of everyone. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 09:11, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I think the international community is paying too much attention for these scenarios to play out. Everyone recognizes that there are certain lines that can't be crossed without inviting massive intervention from Israel or US or some international peacekeeping presence beforehand. Arabs, much as they might want to show their new power are not really in a position to 'cut off the oil'. There's still lots of oil all over the world, and some of it is still controlled by US-friendly dictators, and OPEC is not run by April 6th, and all of these countries still get lots of aid from the U.S. and they need the money from the oil trade. Also they'd have to worry about counter-sanctions, not to mention military action of some sort. So I don't see that scenario playing out quite that way. More I see a situation where Israel responds to a major terrorist something (sorry to use the t-word), and they over-react and all of the Arab world unites this time in opposition with massive marches taking place in Palestine. I think then it would simply lay out the necessity for an actual peace process--like one that would be finished in a year or two--and perhaps brokered by U.S./Egypt. (Can you explain the importance of Lebanon and Syria? Why isn't Jordan relevant?). I think I'm more optimistic than you in a way, mainly because I'm pessimistic about the Arab countries actually cooperating with eachother. Although this movement has been a wonderful change so far, it's been mainly national and patriotic. I don't see a pan-Arab consciousness that's politically mobile yet. I think the Palestinians will have their own moment, but that it will be a similarly national one, and it will result in limited statehood with very few concessions. Frankly, people in Yemen and Saudi and Iran and Egypt are all too f-in busy worrying about their own dictators/new governments to be diverting all of their attention to I-P. It seems like the issue that might unite them, but I actually think it's just too contentious and will hurt many of their individual efforts at internal reform. Which is actually my preference, that Egypt leads the way, setting an example, and then over time civil rights spreading to other places, including to Palestine. Palestine is much better when it's not the issue when it's just another country with a group of people who want the same rights as people elsewhere. Ocaasi c 20:38, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Never say sorry for using the t-word (terrorist). I am a big believer in non-violence. Ghandi was once asked he would have faced hitler using the same methods he used against his uprising the brits, and he said yes (Note: I am not comparing Nazi Germany to Israel). I struggle everyday with that way of thinking as I think most people who adhere to it. But I dont represent the majority of the people in MENA. I hope that we (arabs) wont go to war and I think the possibility of it happening is very slime. I think this September will tell us how things are going to play out (Maybe even more clearly after the 2012 Election). I hope that the majority of the Israelis understand how important its at the moment to have peace with the Arabs. I hope that Obama understand that its in America's interest to make sure that the peace deal gets signed fast so America disapproval rating will go down Hopefully to the lowest ever. I am hopeful but not foolish enough to believe that the peace process, ending years of hate and gathering a political storm to back it up will be easy or smooth but I can dream of a day when Jews and Muslims can FINALLY live in peace. (Can you explain the importance of Lebanon and Syria? Why isn't Jordan relevant?) Jordan will not go to war. In 73, They were reluctant while the Syrians were not and wanted to take it even further than the Egyptians. Jordan also doesnt not have any of its land under occupation while Lebanon and Syria have parts of their lands (mainly the Shebaa farms and the Golan Heights). and Finally, Jordan was a peace deal with Israel while Syria and Lebanon do not. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 14:35, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

User talk:Ocaasi/POL

Ocaasi - can can I diddle with this too? I've been meaning to to do a userspace policy revision myself, but it would be as good to do it together as separately. If the answer is yes, you kight want to move the page to User:Ocaasi/POL, so that we have a talk page there to discuss revisions. --Ludwigs2 15:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I put it at User:Ocaasi/POLDRAFT. You're welcome to diddle away, although I have a hunch it's going to get significantly shorter under your diddleage, so I'll leave the talkspace copy. Or, if you like, you can just lift the whole thing and put it in your userspace and chop it up. My intention with this draft was to avoid as much policy debate as possible, which meant doing almost nothing but copyediting and strict reorganization. There's nary a rephrasing. It would also be interesting to write more of an up from the ground version, but seeing the demonstrated immutability of a single sentence at WP:V, I doubt there's much point to a full rewrite. So, edit away, or copy away.
One note--organizationally, it kind of suffers since only h2 headers have horizontal ------- line breaks, which are pretty crucial visually in a document this long and many-sectioned. If a 'combined core policy' actually was to work, it would probably have to make the actual sections on NPOV, Verifiability, and Original research be separate H2 headers rather than true parent categories. As written the reader gets a bit lost. Of course that might also be mitigated by cutting off NPOV from V/OR (the See Also section is also a giganto mess). Ocaasi c 16:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)


Barnstar-camera.png The Photographer's Barnstar
Thanks for all your patient efforts in uploading images even when it seems all the copyright nightmares get in the way. You surely deserve it. Pass a Method talk 21:57, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Thanks...! Ocaasi c 22:12, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Saif al-Arab al-Gaddafi

Hi Ocaasi

I have removed the {{recent death}} template from the above-captioned article. That template is specifically for articles that are undergoing heavy editing, and the article's editing doesn't meet the threshold. To warn users about changing information, the {{current}} template is appropriate. I have added the section version of that template to the section on the subject's reported death.

Regards, Bongomatic 01:27, 2 May 2011 (UTC) Should you wish to reply, please do so here. I will watch this page for a few days, so no {{talkback}} or other comment on my talk page is required.

Okay, it's settled down a bit. Last night it was much more hectic and under heavy editing and speculation. Thanks for the note. Ocaasi c 01:50, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

forgot to ask

Tom Nunan is mentioned in several other wikipedia pages. How do I find those mentions and how do I add links to those pages within wikipedia to my article?

Is it ok for me to ask you these questions directly? I am trying to learn the wiki tools but they are so different than what I am used to. I can do research, I am a journalist by trade, but preparing the article to wikipedia standards is proving tricky. If you could even just provide me with a link to the specific instructions to do these things that would help.

Much obliged, -jerry —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerrybattiste (talkcontribs) 03:23, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you

Invisible Barnstar.png The Invisible Barnstar
For the patient, clear way you are able to demonstrate fundamental editing tasks. Alistair Stevenson (talk) 04:11, 2 May 2011 (UTC)


Thanks, Ocaasi, for your detailed evaluation of my article, your recommendations (which I will attempt to follow) and your assistance in flagging the relevant points in the article itself. I understand what you say about informing as an encyclopedia versus as an expert: it is something like the contrast between discussing the content of a course you are not taking and teaching that course. I am (fortunately!) independent of the standard influences of my place of employment and at liberty to think and write about whatever is signigicant in what we do, so your continued assessment will be helpful to me as a contributor. I have (literally) a single supervisor, who has witnessed plenty of self-advertisement and specifically agrees that what I write will be free of such. The plus side of this is that I can discard 90% what my colleagues take without question; the minus is that I am still a little close and write in a fashion that is a little too engaged about this.

It is is appropriate, I think, in that what tools of online learning do, where they came from, and the growing pains associated with its development (startlingly parallel to those of Wikipedia, by the way) seem to be something people really do wonder about.

I am going to do some edits with all of this in mind, if my poor brain has the capacity for this.... :)

And thanks again! Dkephart (talk) 15:27, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


I'm getting comments like this now, which could have come straight out of the mouth of Caiaphas, so I'm starting to think that maybe you and Occam were on to something. I should have converted to Logical Pastafarianism while I had my chance... Face-grin.svg --Ludwigs2 18:32, 4 May 2011 (UTC)



When i type my father's name on Google, my work in progress page comes up. But, it looks like someone has hacked it. But, when i sign it, it looks like everything is intact. Is that your work? (so that others can't view it because it is a work in progress?)

And, how do i access that page where i first had a chat with you?

Also, you left a message saying my page will soon be deleted. You told me before that i have time to work many times on my page. (I need to get info/links from SRi Lanka....i live in N. America takes time). Also, i am contacting people that can verify things...and they live in other parts of the world. People are giving me info to contact other people. A huge process. I Need time......

(Daughter100 (talk) 08:56, 8 May 2011 (UTC)) Daughter 100


This is just a heads-up that a proposal you made a while ago has been resurrected and is being discussed again: Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Proposal_43_and_variants --JN466 10:53, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Are you still working on the Mary G. Enig article?

I feel the time has come to remove the banners. All of the advocacy problems seem to be cleared up, and there are quite a lot of sources for an article this size. Not surprisingly at least one editor disagrees and at least one agrees with me. I am attempting to build a consensus within the sometimes hostile environment over there and it has been trying. I must admit I have not kept as cool a head as I should. Any input you may have would be appreciated. Colincbn (talk) 07:04, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Second Revolutionary Wave in Egypt

Sorry I didnt reply to you earlier. I have been busy with life, work and organizing for the Second Revolutionary Wave that's supposed to start this Friday in Egypt against the SCAF and really take of on the 27th of May. I also had exams so I barely had time to sleep. Will get back to wikipedia once shit slows down a bit. mean while stay safe and keep up the good work :)

PS: Timeline of the 2011 Egyptian revolution since the resignation of Mubarak needs major work seeing how it will likely be the main page about the Second Revolutionary Wave in Egypt -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 13:50, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Andrew Peach

Could I draw your attention to the Radio 2 article once again please. You seem to have gone quiet since the page was protected? There have been some suggestions to end this edit war. NJ1985 (talk) 16:13, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Weston_Price.2C_NPOV.2C_and_MEDRS regarding an issue with which you are involved. Thank you. 19:34, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


my page was called User:Black60dragon/Blood Wrestling Federation i need the data off it so do you know how to get it emailed to me--Black Dragon 04:14, 23 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Black60dragon (talkcontribs)

Correction of Earth Shoe article.

I'll not proceed tonight; but would like to know: - If I were to locate documentation that poses challenge to the Earth Shoe page (per the meritorious benefits of wearing Earth Shoes; and the fact that Anne Kalso was, indeed, a Yoga-Instructor): 1) Can documentation consist of reference to a journal entry, for example? Thence, 2) What need I do to get (them) posted? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ElfstoneAragorn (talkcontribs) 05:55, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The entry Earth Shoe details are erroneous.

This help request has been answered. If you need more help, place a new {{help me}} request on this page followed by your questions, contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse.

(maybe I posted wrong, couple hrs. ago) If i were to find some documentation,an article or journal entry, to justify my exceptions to the issues - Earth Shoe article - per a) the healthful merits of wearing Earth Shoes; b) evidence that Anne Kalso (Earth Shoe inventor)was, in fact, a Yoga Instructor: HOW do I submit those documents, to be published?Quantum Mechanics: The study of the dreams that stuff is made of. (talk) 07:52, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Leavea a message at Talk:Earth shoe, or just add the material to the article directly. You can cite your sources by editing the page, then clicking "Cite" above the edit box, then clicking "cite journal" or whatever under "Templates". Dcoetzee 09:44, 23 May 2011 (UTC)


I hereby recognize you, Ocaasi, for all your anti-vandalism work and continued use of the STiki tool. You've classified over 4,000 edits! Additional thanks for watching my talk page(s) and all the suggestions you've put forth. While I personally thank you for your support, you've also done a lot of good for the community in the process.  Keep up the good work, West.andrew.g (talk) 04:56, 20 April 2011 (UTC) Thanks for all your patient efforts in uploading images even when it seems all the copyright nightmares get in the way. You surely deserve it. Pass a Method talk 21:57, 1 May 2011 (UTC) For the patient, clear way you are able to demonstrate fundamental editing tasks. Alistair Stevenson (talk) 04:11, 2 May 2011 (UTC) Sonia and I award you this barnstar for your work on making Wikipedia easier for new users.  Pine (GreenPine) t 09:52, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
noob involved been around veteran seen it all older than the Cabal itself

A cupcake for you!

Choco-Nut Bake with Meringue Top cropped.jpg
Armbrust has given you a cupcake! Cupcakes promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a cupcake, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.

Thanks! Ocaasi c 15:04, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Some more help, please.

More suport wanted

Hi Ocaasi, could you please have a last little look at my DAX Rush page, and give me some advice on how to publish.

Thanks!! Wiki Thomas 12:18, 25 May 2011 (UTC)


Also...please see Wikipedia_talk:Wiki_Guides/Archive_1#IRC_chat_with_Chzz - expand it (SHOW), look at the chat.  Chzz  ►  11:15, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

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I just wanted to stop by and say that I'm very interested in your ideas here and plan to come by a bit later today to read up on them and the feedback you've been given. I can't put myself down as a "participant", exactly, but I'll let you know if I see any way that I may be able to assist. :) --Maggie Dennis (talk) 14:54, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Cool. Whatever capacity you can help in, your input will be great. Ocaasi c 15:04, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

TB Pearlasia Gamboa DYK

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Stay Safe

Allied Artists and Kim Richards -,1097763&dq=allied+artists+bugging+murder&hl=en

Allied Artists and PG -

I did not send you the LA TImes and other articles you requested because I thought you would post in the Allied Artists and United Assurance Company Limited articles without using an anonymous IP.

All of this is unbelievable when first seen, and not taken seriously. Stay safe and help other editors stay that way. PPdd (talk) 20:48, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Okay, i'll keep an eye out. If this is a big concern you need to wait it out anyway. Cheers, Ocaasi c 21:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, as you can see from my recent contribution history in the past month or so since KDR made his legal threat, roughly "this is not a legal threat, but someone could hunt down yor IP serve you legal papers if you write anything in the LA Times about our AA with its history of fraud", a nearly big zero, that's what I have been doing. But I am concerned for some very bad things happening to Louis Lesser, as the images of the specific medical documents linked to in this thread show. - Posters at that board at first thought this was all a hoax.
Now in this thread that came later, no one knows what to do, and most communictation is being done by private messages.
Also, editors not in the know are threatening to delete all of the posts of documents here at WIkimedia Commons, like a typical petty wikilawyering fight. But no one there knows about all the other stuff. Can you help at commons here? I am too inexperienced to know how to respond. I do have an adequate response, but I do not know how to make it within their wikimedialegal system. PPdd (talk) 01:02, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
PPdd, I don't think i'm going to get more involved with this. Wikipedia is not here to play cop or jury or muckraker. We're an encyclopedia. Talk to a journalist, write a book, go into hiding. But don't bring this drama here, please. Focus on simple sources and wait for the real world to take care of the rest. Ocaasi c 01:08, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Review my article


Could you please review my article, as I have published it DAX Rush. Thank you sooo much! Wiki Thomas 08:29, 30 May 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki Thomas M (talkcontribs)


yes hello: i see that you added this to the article for Juice Plus. just in case you do not know, simpson was acquitted, and claiming otherwise, even on this article, is against several wikipedia policies, and perhaps against the law. please be more careful next time. Badmachine (talk) 02:19, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

My bad. I was retyping the sentence in a paraphrase and mixed them up. No covert slip-in-a-Simpson-diss. Cheers, Ocaasi c 02:20, 2 June 2011 (UTC)


Not sure how I arrived at a subpage of yours with my previous post. Anyway, thanks for answering my question about the content noticeboard. TimidGuy (talk) 10:29, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

License tagging for File:Hamza Postmortem.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:Hamza Postmortem.jpg. You don't seem to have indicated the license status of the image. Wikipedia uses a set of image copyright tags to indicate this information.

To add a tag to the image, select the appropriate tag from this list, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the tag to the image's description. If there doesn't seem to be a suitable tag, the image is probably not appropriate for use on Wikipedia. For help in choosing the correct tag, or for any other questions, leave a message on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. Thank you for your cooperation. --ImageTaggingBot (talk) 02:06, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

RE: Hamza

Hey Ocaasi, How are you? Hope you are doing well. I could not find the original aljazeera arabic video on their youtube channel but I managed to find every video they have posted that mention Hamza in it:

I also found 2 videos by Aljazeera English regarding the topic [11] and [12]. I have talked to Abrazame about Hamza about a week ago when I fist heard about what happened to the kid from a blog by one of my activist friends We are all Hamza Ali El-Khatib , Syria’s Khaled Mohamed Saeed "Extremely Graphic" :( I later tried to get in touch with his father to get more details about Hamza, but a friend of mine in Syria told that the Dad has been arrested by the Syrian forces. I did managed however to find these sources about Hamaza:

Hope all of this information helps you. I would have written about him myself but I didnt think I can do it with a NPOV. Im too angry to do it so Im you (someone I personally trust) have started the page about him. Let me know if you need anything else -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 06:04, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. The article is as complete as I can make it right now, but new news comes out daily. The anger is not helpful to the writing, but I notice it. I can't talk more if I will work on it. Good luck with whatever you're up to. Syria will be a peaceful place one day. User:Ocaasi c 06:08, 3 June 2011 (UTC)


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Message added 02:43, 4 June 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Guoguo12 (Talk)  02:43, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

A question on a potential new article

I might as well ask you too. I already asked Binksternet, but he hasn't responded yet. Do you think it makes sense to make a separate article at 2011 Ahwazi protests? This is in reference to the April 15-18 section in the 2011 Iranian protests article. These Ahwazi protests are involving separate people from the other protests that occurred and they aren't protesting for the same results, as far as I can tell. The article would of course have a summary section and main link in the appropriate place in the Iranian protests article. The sources I would be using would include Al Arabiya, Al Bawaba, Los Angeles Times, another Al Arabiya, Human Rights Watch, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, and The Guardian. SilverserenC 04:56, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Why aren't you responding to my question above? ;___; SilverserenC 01:35, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Totally missed it. Will look. Ocaasi t | c 01:37, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
I'll be honest--i have no idea what's going on in Iran or with the Ahwazi protests. So I'm not sure that I can comment on it. It looksl ike you have good sources. I'd lead away from a separate article and just go for a separate sub-section in the Iranian protests article. If it grows/spreads, a new article can be made. Ok, those are my thoughts. Cheers, Ocaasi t | c 01:39, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
The issue is that a user is removing and minimizing info in the article, saying that it's giving undue weight to the subject. They tried to actually remove the information earlier, saying that Al Arabiya is unreliable and Al Bawaba is a blog with no editorial oversight. Any information I try to add to the article about these protests just get reverted by him as undue weight. SilverserenC 01:43, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Find more better sources. Draft it on the talk page. Give me a heads up and I'll leave a comment. A new article isn't the right fix for a Weight debate. More editor input and more sources should be. Ocaasi t | c 01:48, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
I don't know if there are any other sources that exist. Those above were found after a thorough search of the internet. The Iranian government has the media thing on total shutdown around Ahwaz, considering they have it blockaded. The media in general has been suspiciously avoiding discussing it. SilverserenC 01:50, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Draft what you have on the talk page. Wait for more news or developments. Inserts a 1-2 sentence paragraph in the Iranian revolution article without a separate section. Ocaasi t | c 01:53, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


Original Barnstar.png The Original Barnstar
Sonia and I award you this barnstar for your work on making Wikipedia easier for new users. Pine (GreenPine) t 09:52, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
More specifically, for the huge amount of effort you've put into the scripts etc for the tutorial, and how quickly we've been able to sketch out something solid together when nothing before has gotten this far. sonia 09:54, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
It is a pleasure and an honor to be noticed by good folk like yourself, Sonia, and editors so eager to add their chisel to this project, Green Pine. May the next barnstar I receive be the "barnstar of successful version 6 rollout to the Wikipedia ambassador program's online interactive gaming experience with support from Jimbo and". I accept this with WikiWit and actual appreciation. Thanks to both and all the people adding their contributions to the project. They will be increasingly essential to getting it up in the air. Ocaasi t | c 17:31, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Re: Idea

Sounds like a good idea for a wiki project. I don't know if, or how much, I would help though. I can sign up as a member of the project.

Great quote you currently have posted at the top of your talk page:

"I call this Revolution 2.0. Revolution 2.0 is, is — I say that our revolution is like Wikipedia, OK? Everyone is contributing content. You don't know the names of the people contributing the content ... This is exactly what happened. Revolution 2.0 in Egypt was exactly the same. Everyone was contributing small pieces, bits and pieces. We drew this whole picture. We drew this whole picture of a revolution. And that picture — no one is the hero in that picture."
-- Wael Ghonim on the peaceful protests in Egypt that lead to the overthrow of President Hosni Mubarak:

Thanks for that link! I'll give you a heads up when I make the project page. Ocaasi t | c 01:34, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Hey dude, The idea sounds good but I think the only articles that we can get to GA/FA right now are:

As for Khaled's and Hamza's articles, they are still ongoing to I dont think we will be able to get to GA/FA right now. I think we should start Mohamed Bouazizi's article and see where we can go from there but overall the idea is pretty cool and I think its away to honor their memories and highlight their impact on the future of their countries.

Your timing is perfect, Khaled died a year ago. I was wondering if you can help me put it in the DYK section? I have never done it before. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 05:17, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Ditto, great idea. Those articles are not exactly within the scope of my usual work, and I think I am a little over committed in Wikipedia stuff at the moment, so I will have to turn down participating :( Best of luck, Sadads (talk) 08:29, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Request for input

As someone whose views I respect and who I know to be independent minded, I would be most grateful for your input in a discussion at Talk:Linklaters#Offices_Section, which concerns the removal of a long-standing list of that law firm's offices from that article. The discussion could set a precedent for the inclusion of lists of offices in other law firms' articles, or at least embolden certain editors to go on a removal campaign, and I believe it to therefore be of wider impact than is first apparent. Many thanks in advance. Rangoon11 (talk) 19:02, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Re: Interactive Wikipedia Tutorial

Crystal Clear app gimp.png
Hello, Ocaasi. A reply to your request at the Illustration workshop has been made.
If you are satisfied, please copy/paste the following code and add it to your request: {{resolved|1=~~~~}}

You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{GL Illustration reply}} template.

MissMJ (talk) 23:14, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


I replied to your comment and made another proposal using the same source that is about pseudoscience. I'm a volunteer like everyone else. So please respect my time and let's get straight down to the work at hand, ok? QuackGuru (talk) 22:47, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not trying to waste your time. I disagree with your general approach here. I'll get to it when i have time. Don't insinuate i have other motives, please. Do a side-by-side proposal of your draft and Ludwigs' with room for comment on the pros and cons of each one. Then we'll combine the best we can and make a new proposal based off consensus. Ocaasi t | c 22:55, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
You wrote at the pseudoscience talk page "Much better, and clearly where the bigger picture is. Writing with a focus on 'the source in your hand' is great for WP:V, but not for WP:NPOV. One quibble, can we edit out 'ontological claim', as I think the average encyclopedia reader won't know what to make of it? Ocaasi (talk) 12:16, 31 December 2010 (UTC)"
Did I read your comment correctly? Do you support the original research by Ludwigs2? You seem to claim the text meets V. The editor replaced sourced text with OR. You seem to be presenting OR as verifiable fact. See WP:OR. Will you explain the comment you made on the talk page that seems to support OR? The Ludwigs' edit is non-compliant with core Wikipedia policies. You seem to disagree with the general Wikipedia policies here. I don't want to combine Ludwigs' OR with anything. QuackGuru (talk) 23:04, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm done with you for now QG, i'm sorry that you can't be more cooperative. Ocaasi t | c 23:08, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

re illustrations

Just a few thoughts. Is Soph fine as she stands, or is more tweaking needed? Secondly, I'm assuming a number of expressions are needed (welcome, good job, not quite, pointing to something, etc). Would be nice to know exactly what you'd like with those. Oh, and- what should I license the images under? I'd personally rather just CC0 them, public domain, but if this tutorial becomes 'official' or something that may not be a good idea. sonia 21:41, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Soph is great, blonde or black. I did think eye color might be a nice twist, maybe green for blonde Sophie or blue for black sophie. Hadn't thought about faces. I suppose happy, sad, and thumbs up/congrats, and pointing up or pointing left (hopefully one generic point will do and we won't have to think about directions). I'd license CC-BY-SA 3.0 and we can always relicense them. That's my instinct, but you might have more knowledge in this area. Hopefully we'll have a mockup by some time next weekend. Ocaasi t | c 00:27, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Eyes? They hardly have much in the way of eyes to begin with, hmm. I'll try to get at least one character in those four generic positions done for the mockup by the weekend; in the middle of finals so I can't guarantee much. The owl should be quick, and I'm thinking the red-haired Soph at this point if I'm going to work on a person. sonia 09:51, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


Hi there, you just didn't answer simple question, tell me straight way WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE and OK I like clear situations, cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aiventure (talkcontribs) 21:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Jaw harp

Hi. Various names are used for the jaw lamellophone; as the article says, the term has no connection with jewish culture. --Opus88888 (talk) 13:04, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

You are correct, Jew's harp is also its common word. I'm just trying to use the musicologist term. We could channel it into debate. --Opus88888 (talk) 14:21, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
Although name discussion is abandoned, I'll write a note on the subject. --Opus88888 (talk) 14:40, 11 June 2011 (UTC) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

You created the IP's user page last month. Unfortunately, the IP has abused the privilege, and has posted an "enemies list" as well as other improper stuff. Please come to WP:ANI and explain why you created the page for the user, or otherwise comment on the situation. Thank you! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:21, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

IP user pages can float. That's why it doesn't make sense to create IP pages for users. You need to explain yourself further on this one. What you've said so far at ANI is inadequate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

You created it on May 27th,[13] including a heading for Barnstars. What's up with that? Are you doing this kind of thing routinely? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:36, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Great work

Ocaasi, our colleague KFP linked me to a page you've been working on, Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide. I just wanted to stop by and say it's great work, and to thank you for taking the time to focus on this very important issue. Risker (talk) 03:05, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Great to hear. We've been using it regularly in the #wikipedia-en-help channel (WP:PSCOI, which is kind of catchy for a short-cut). I'm interested in bringing this area of the site into the light and making it both easier, better 'regulated', more efficient, and more--for lack of a better word--contributive. Thanks again! Also, User:Sonia and User:Dcoetzee were much help with the page and several regular IRC helpers gave good feedback on it. If there's anything else in the COI realm that you're working on or interested in, I'd love to hear. Cheers, Ocaasi t | c 03:09, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Amina Abdalla Araf al Omari hoax

I waded in, thinking something needed to be done. Thank you for the "Good faith" tag. I am happy for you to take the task over, but I am interested in whether so much matter should be included, now it is known to be a hoax. So an account of a demonstration is moving and inspiring, if written by a real Syrian, and is worth while including, but _I feel_ that the heartrending content of the blog should not be included now the hoax is unmasked. Abigailgem (talk) 15:38, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


/ƒETCHCOMMS/ 20:27, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your help

A gift for you for helping me with that naughty template. Okay, okay, it's not a diamond, but it's SOLAR, and thus will keep on ticking, and ticking, until it craps out based on the corporation's secret policy on planned obsolescence.

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:54, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Getting renamed

FYI, my rename from GreenPine to Pine is underway, but I'm having a lot of headaches. :( I recommend discouraging people from changing their names. It's waaaaaaaay too much work. I'm thinking of giving up on Pine/GreenPine and starting with a fresh account. GreenPine (talk) 08:36, 14 June 2011 (UTC)


Thanks Thanks for helping with the references section on the EDU page. I wasn't quite sure how to do it, as I am new to editing.Carnitine (talk) 20:36, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

This is why

This is why you upload locally. It's a lot easier to deal with such things on here than on Commons. :P Any chance we can save the image? It's pretty poignant. SilverserenC 01:16, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

They're a bit strict over there. I think we can save it, but i'll have to check with Yamaha, the Flickr uploader. Egyptian Liberal knows him personally, so between us we should be able to figure out the photo's roots. It's a great photo, but I'm not sure it would pass NFCR if it's not his. Ocaasi t | c 01:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Pro Cycling Manager.jpg


Thanks for uploading File:Pro Cycling Manager.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 09:28, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

RE: File:Khaled Mohamed Saeed's mother visiting his grave.jpg

I know Yamaha uses twitter and there people usually re-upload the photos they like on their accounts so it will very hard (Nearly impossible) verify who is the original photographer. It says that "This photo was taken on May 21, 2011" on flickr so unless the other photo was talking earlier, then Yamaha is the original photographer. Also noticed that the guy didnt offer the original photo -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 13:42, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, it's tricky. When someone releases their Flickr Photos as cc-by-sa 2.0, it presumes they have the ownership rights to release the photos. Would you ask Yamaha about it? If not, I will send him a note on Flickr. Cheers, Ocaasi t | c 13:45, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

FYI: Pseudoscience editing is subject to restrictions

This note is to inform you that Pseudoscience articles are subject to editing restrictions, as outlined by the Arbitration Committee. Please read and familiarize yourself with this remedy. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 15:36, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Cheers. Any reason for the notice? I've been editing there for months... Ocaasi t | c 15:47, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
The article(s) seem to be getting a bit more active, this is simply a friendly notification so you don't unintentionally run afoul of an ArbCom remedy. Doing it officially rather than w/o the logging is merely being even-handed. Please let me know if you have any questions regarding the remedy, thanks! KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 15:51, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Oh and you may have been there for months, but I've been semi-inactive recently, so I've been slacking on keeping an eye on Pseudoscience. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 15:52, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Gotcha, thanks. Ocaasi t | c 16:51, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Pseudoscience issues

You wrote I'm done with you for now QG, i'm sorry that you can't be more cooperative. Ocaasi, I am being cooperative. Please try to address the issues in accordance with Wikipedia core policies. There is no reason for a source on pseudoscience to be left out of the article. Do you agree the peer-reviewed source must be restored and summarised at the pseudoscience article.

QG, you are assuming your conclusion and not listening to other editor's objections. Until that stops I won't try and edit with you. I'm not done working on the article but as for your proposal, unless you change your approach I'm not going to try and make more headway here. Matute is a fine source, but it has the issues I and others have laid out. You can read those objections, but if you continue to call other editors interpretations of policy, application of context and usage, and other informed discretion, mere policy violations, there is nothing to discuss. literally, since you have made up your mind already. I'm not the only one who opposes your suggested usage of this quote, perhaps there is a reason which you can consider. Ocaasi t | c 16:50, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
I made a proposal to summary the text for Demographics. See Talk:Pseudoscience#Demographics. Do you have any specific objection to improving the article using the Matute source for Pseudoscience#Demographics. QuackGuru (talk) 17:03, 17 June 2011 (UTC)


/ƒETCHCOMMS/ 23:16, 17 June 2011 (UTC)


You asked if User:TheDJ/Sharebox could be made into a gadget - I don't know. Probably best speak to User:TheDJ about it. Fences&Windows 21:09, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

A logical tip. Thanks! Ocaasi t | c 22:41, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

New Article

I was wondering if you can help with this new article? thanks -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 13:12, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Replied to question on the talk page :-) -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 02:00, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
I was wondering if you can write the part about virginity tests AKA Virginity Gate. please let me know if you can. Hope all is well with you. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 01:24, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, I have tried to write it and every time I do, it comes out more angry. so Im glad that someone else has started it. I am gonna wait for Abrazame to expand the section. Love your article about Mona Seif. Her brother Alaa is jealous that her article is bigger than his LMAO. Saw this video and thought you might wonna watch it [14] -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 13:33, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


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Hello, Ocaasi. You have new messages at Ukexpat's talk page.
Message added 16:08, 20 June 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

ukexpat (talk) 16:08, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I zapped your edit

This one. A thousand pardons. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:24, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

As King of a very miniature kingdom, I raise my scepter and ever so devastatingly tap you with it once on the shoulder. You ask, 'is that it'? I nod. How's that for mercy? I am a kind king, befitting such a small dominion, but large in generosity. Or, as the Italians say, dohntwurryabouhtit! Ocaasi t | c 23:30, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


Recite Me Ltd., an article that I saw you helped the creator in, has been successfully created. I rated it C-class, but I can't figure out if it should be start-class. Could you look at it and update the talk page banner if needed? Thanks! Crazymonkey1123 (Jacob) T or M/Sign mine 17:38, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Astrology Definition

Hi Ocaasi,

It's good to be in contact and I hope you are ok. If no one responds to your last post, I certainly will at some stage.

I am hoping that we can seek a definition of astrology that is broad enough to cover the field and works for most people. Is it unreasonable to aim for a neutral definition that would be acceptable to a majority of the practitioners? Is there any WP precedent on this? Astrology is a controversial subject and there is plenty of criticism (too much IMO) in the body.

I am not sure whether you customarily reply here or on my talk page and whether I get notified when you do. ~Robert

Robert Currey talk 21:13, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks very much, Ocaasi - I will ponder over that. I was confused as I would normally call them footnotes, but the footnote 90 (Cornelius) didn't seem to be about divination so I ruled it out. Robert Currey talk 22:40, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Amina again

The gay girl blog was removed, and is now back, with alterations. Someone looking at it as it is now will not see the depth of the deception. Minal Hajratwala on her blog has a file of what the gay girl blog was like before the hoax was discovered, and I have made a request to her to link to that on Wikipedia (she voices concerns on her blog about her site being vandalised). Is there any way of recording that file record of the gay girl blog on Wikipedia?

Minal Hajratwala also raises the possibility that someone is so irked with MacMaster that s/he is pretending to be him, and issuing threats in his name, to make him appear even more of a pillock!!Abigailgem (talk) 16:40, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Of office politics and others

I wanted to reply to a couple of things you said, but the thread at ANI wasn't the right place even before it was closed. I do sympathise with Silverseren finding out that someone said horrible things behind his back - that's never nice. Silver is a productive contributor who can be very annoying, but I wouldn't like them to leave. And while I don't wish to distance myself from a colleague, I have no idea why Iridescent though that Silver was a sockmaster, and no-one ever followed up on the statement, which one of the checkusers could have legitimately done if they thought it was at all likely.

On the larger topic of "office politics" on Wikipedia - I can only say that the phenomenon exists throughout Wikipedia, but it is such a big place, it's probably possible not to notice it, particularly if an editor is not given to exchanging emails or talking in chat with other editors. As soon as one starts doing that with a couple of other people, one quickly realises that there are groups, cliques etc and a lot of past history that gets rehashed, and the things that come up at ANI, AE etc suddenly take on a different aspect. The place is full of humans, after all.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:13, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for responding. One, I wanted to stick up for Silver a bit, who is an interesting, open, and fairly young editor who is still learning a lot. The kind of editor I'd like to encourage rather than ruin. I personally haven't encountered any traits I would consider annoying. If others have, then that's a delicate concern and hopefully it can be communicated constructively.
I was surprised by this 'shorthand' of citing past evil editors who populate the Arbcom universe like mythical demons. Names were dropped and quoted like legal precedents or like three-letter policy acronyms. I guess this is one way to simplify the morass of a topics you encounter, but it's also a lazy tool to demean, dehumanize, and deconstruct actual editors and individuals. Oh, he's just another NDK or LDW, or whatever. A certain efficiency is lost when people can't be honest, but unchecked, unthought, honesty can be pretty messy and low-brow. Iridescent's tone was flip, inconsiderate, and cocksure, things I fear most from those who wield power. My gripe with your realism is simply that I prefer our community to be better than that. I do notice people making comments, but I think it is still something we should not elevate to a backroom dialect, particularly among Arbs. Maybe you all need a way to blow off steam, or to call spades as you see them, but something looked off there. I tend to not engage those discussions, or try to do it differently. I'm sure you'll have some thoughts on this going forward. I recognize you have a lot going on and this is generally a distraction. Thanks again, cheers. Ocaasi t | c 11:47, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
There is a lot of past history, and I do understand what you mean about the effects of flip comments. I'm not saying it's laudable, but I was surprised that people were surprised that it happens. Going forward, it would be way better to achieve a separation between discussion of cases and private comments, with the understanding that the discussion may at some point have to be made public. I actually had a blazing row (in person, so it's not going to turn up on WR unless someone took photos) with some of the older arbs, who insisted that their deliberations must always be considered private. Coming from the UK public sector, I'm used to discussions being available for public scrutiny if someone asks under Freedom of Information, and I would rather work that way, and have private email if one wishes to vent an opinion.
Now everything has come out, I'm sure Silver realises why the Committee wouldn't give out much on User:RodHullandemu, but it was almost impossible at the time for anyone to get him to take a hint as to why one might not want to plaster the information all over the wiki. Maybe it's because he's young. Wouldn't normally be a problem, it just was at that point very annoying. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:17, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm still looking into the details. I have a feeling there's a much deeper issue here about power and privacy, something government deals with all the time. That dialogue, whether it's about having minutes of meetings or FOI requests or WikiLeaks is always a potent tension between those who are trusted and those who feel those who are trusted should have nothing to hide. I'm a big supporter of privacy for individuals but transparency for groups, since it's rarely people acting alone or in very small alliances that do harm. Only when a culture of flippancy becomes pervasive in a governing body does it concern me. I think Arbs have earned private communications, but I am not persuaded that absolute privacy should extend beyond their email accounts.
One interesting idea would be to have a transparency clerk, an ombudsman of sorts, someone who was elected from the community who was not an Arb but who would have access to chat rooms and mailing lists. They could act as an uninvolved sounding board and check of the process in a way that might avoid some of these situations. As an elected position it would be someone who was trusted not to get sucked into either side of a debate and to generally be a fair dealer and to encourage Arbcom's actions be reasonably unoffensive or hurtful. Arbcom is very powerful and Wikipedia is increasingly important. Maybe we need better governance. Of course, there are frequent elections, and these recent events may have repercussions. Still, better to maintain a regular dialogue with the community about these issues then deal with annual firestorms. Ocaasi t | c 14:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


Hi, I want to thank you for your comment/support at my OTRS volunteer application which I am pleased to report was successful. I will be starting steadily but look forward to contributing and assisting in this new area, regards. Off2riorob (talk) 10:03, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

AFC-Logo Decline.svg
You recently made a submission to Articles for Creation. Your article has been reviewed and because some issues were found, it could not be accepted in its current form; it is now located at Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Xuwoni Tora. Please view your submission to see the comments left by the reviewer. Feel free to edit the submission to address the issues raised, and resubmit once you feel they have been resolved. (You can do this by adding the text {{subst:AFC submission/submit}} to the top of the article.) Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia! avs5221(talk|contrib) 10:05, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

The lion of Egyptian revolution (Qasr al-Nil Bridge).jpg

I was wondering if you could give you opinion on the picture nomination to be a featured picture. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 08:09, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Hey Ocaasi. I was wondering if you knew more ppl on wikipedia and if you ask them to give their opinions on the picture nomination since its gonna be a very close call -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 14:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for you support. BTW, Wikipedia arabic caused a fight on TV show (Al-Qahera Al-Youm) few days ago. Here's a link the video [15]. The fight was because "Amr Adeeb" (TV Host) said that Abdurrahman Yusuf al-Qaradawi (Yusuf al-Qaradawi's son) was Qatari -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 10:36, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you so much

Compass barnstar.png The Guidance Barnstar
I ran across Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide today, and it is fantastic. I have been trying to help editors deal with conflicts of interest for a long time and this is such a valuable tool. -- Atama 22:56, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Thanks! This has been a lot of help in the #wikipedia-en-help channel. Pass it around! Ocaasi t | c 01:05, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Evaluation of handling of COI?

Hi there, Ocassi. Being one who has a potential COI, I follow the evolving conversations on Wikipedia's COI policy and was intrigued by the suggestion that you posed here. In the interest of getting an independent opinion on my approach, would you consider taking a look at, say, how I went about my involvement in a recent article that I disclosed my COI upfront, sought input on and (with consensus) edited? I know that you likely have more thrilling things to do with your summer days, but I'd appreciate any feedback or suggestions that you have for me.

1. I have a disclosure and explanation of the policies I find most important to follow on my userpage: User:Jeff_Bedford

2. The Diet Pepsi article was not in line with Wikipedia's content guidelines prior to my involvement: Diet Pepsi article on May 2, 2011

3. So I created and revised a sandboxed version: User:Jeff_Bedford/Sandbox3

4. Then I explained the changes I thought would help to bring this article closer in line with Wikipedia guidelines, sought out input and disclosed my COI on the article's Talk page before making any changes.

5. The article's Talk page was silent, so I went over to the Wikiproject Food and Drink to ask if anyone there would be willing to assess my proposed update.

6. At this point, User:Jerem43 shared feedback and recommended a few changes to the sandboxed version. I made the corrections per his suggestion, and with his guidance I updated the actual article. Our conversations over this content are back and forth on my user talk page and Jerem43's user talk page

7. Following my involvement, the article now looks like this: Diet Pepsi

Cheers, Jeff Bedford (talk) 23:58, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Appreciate the suggestions you made--per your advice, I've modified my userpage to make the COI disclosure statement more clear and visually distinct from the rest of the text. I will be working on adding my COI disclosure to my signature in the next week, but I want to carefully read through WP:USERNAME, WP:SIGNATURE, WP:ADVERT and other related policies before doing so, to be absolutely sure that I go about it in a way that fully complies with Wikipedia's standards.
I am interested in the ideas you presented regarding a possible "suggestions for handling different types of COI" Wikiproject, and would welcome further discussion on how that could work. I think that a Wikiproject (or something along that line of thinking) would be the optimal route, as a COI editor training or certification could put too much of a burden on diverting from the volunteer of Wikipedia. The presence of a training certification for COI editors could potentially give new editors the wrong image of the aims of Wikipedia, and could attract and subsequently frustrate those who arrive with the intent of writing about non-notable subjects.
I feel it is important to be exceedingly conscientious and respectful of the spirit of the community here, so I don't think that Wikipedia as a community should officially endorse nor explicitly prohibit editing with a COI. But at the same time, I personally feel that adequate disclosure and prudence in approaching Wikipedia is crucial for those with any potential COI.
I am familiar with the Rfc from 2009 and the other attempts at a policy and a guideline that came up over the past few years. I joined Wikipedia in 2010, but I have read through those earlier discussions. Do you have any thoughts on whether it would be beneficial to invite further community discussion on this subjec--and if so, in what form? Cheers, Jeff Bedford (talk) 19:12, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Page userfied

I moved Talk:Mary G. Enig/Draft to User:Ocaasi/Mary G. Enig/Draft. In my opinion it was obvious that said talkpage was actually a userdraft. If you disagree with me, please write me on my talkpage. Debresser (talk) 00:36, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

No problem. At the time it was going to be used as a proposal, but we worked out the issues on the main talk page. Cheers, Ocaasi t | c 00:56, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


I hereby recognize you, Ocaasi, for all your anti-vandalism work and continued use of the STiki tool. You've classified over 4,000 edits! Additional thanks for watching my talk page(s) and all the suggestions you've put forth. While I personally thank you for your support, you've also done a lot of good for the community in the process.  Keep up the good work, West.andrew.g (talk) 04:56, 20 April 2011 (UTC) Thanks for all your patient efforts in uploading images even when it seems all the copyright nightmares get in the way. You surely deserve it. Pass a Method talk 21:57, 1 May 2011 (UTC) For the patient, clear way you are able to demonstrate fundamental editing tasks. Alistair Stevenson (talk) 04:11, 2 May 2011 (UTC) Sonia and I award you this barnstar for your work on making Wikipedia easier for new users.  Pine (GreenPine) t 09:52, 4 June 2011 (UTC) I ran across Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide today, and it is fantastic. I have been trying to help editors deal with conflicts of interest for a long time and this is such a valuable tool. -- Atama頭 22:56, 28 June 2011 (UTC) edits) 16:48, 11 July 2011 (UTC) 16:48, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
noob involved been around veteran seen it all older than the Cabal itself

List of Universities

After what I thought was a productive discussion on the dispute resolution noticeboard the two users who were disagreeing with me have unilaterally reverted my edit to introduce changes along the lines you proposed. Can you take a look? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:56, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Probably its worth giving them a couple of weeks to chill out about it, and re-add the content later, unless you think there is an issue with this version. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:05, 6 July 2011 (UTC)


Firewall.png a firewall for you!
Thought you might need one too. Sorry I haven't been around- I'm still getting medication sorted, and should be back in full swing in a week or two. sonia 04:15, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

A true and thoughtful gift. Now if only I knew the 24 digit hexadecimal key needed to set this puppy up. Until then, I'll use it as a deterrent. Beware of firewall. Don't stay away too long! Ocaasi t | c 22:09, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

DYK - Human rights in Egypt under the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces

I was wondering if we can nominate the article to be in DYK. Maybe the hook should like "Did you know that seven thousand civilians to ten thousand civilians were tried in military tribunals since the 2011 Egyptian revolution". Im asking you help cuz I never nominated any there and have no clue how to do it so maybe you can help me, thanks :D -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 05:47, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, though it's a great idea, the articles at DYK are all either a) new within the last 5 days or b) expanded 5x length in the last 5 days. So Human right in Egypt under the SCAF is too old, basically, unless it was expanded to five times its length in the past week. I missed Mona Seif for DYK too. In the future go after it right when you create the article or do a major expansion. Ocaasi t | c 08:21, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Wish I knew that :( Both articles are pretty good. HR in Egypt under the SCAF could be expand; the "virginity tests" section was enough info to be it's own article really. What do you think? -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 09:38, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
I think right now it's okay as just part of a larger article. But it could be expanded, then maybe. Ocaasi t | c 11:04, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

BTW, if you are looking for articles about activist to expand, you might be interested in Alaa Abd El-Fatah, Hossam el-Hamalawy or Gigi Ibrahim. If you want to start a new article, then you should go for Hussein Salem (NPD figure). -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 15:43, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for starting the article. Let be put it this way, Hussein is the alan greenspan of Egypt. Hussein started getting big under Sadat but he didnt really hit the big time until Mubarak took over. He is clinging to Spain; Beside a lot of ppl rather see him than stand in trail and let ALL the dirty laundry out, same goes to Mubarak. If I was a betting man, I would be the both of them wont see the inside of a court room. They will just happened to die due to natural cases ;-) If any of the big heads in Egypt face a real public trial, Other government might be over throw in many countries, including England for example. For example, did you know that Ahmad Fathi Sorour was the master mind behind killing Soad Hosny in London in 2001? Know let's say the British intelligence agency knew about this in advance and gave the green light, what do you think will happen? If Mubarak feels that he got fucked by the US, he is gonna sing. Mubarak has been an imprtant figure in Egypt since the 70s, that's 40 yrs of top secrets; Wikileaks gone wild. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 06:11, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

In The News for 2011 Egyptian revolution

Anyways, I need your opinion on something. Yesterday there was a major protest in Egypt [16] [17] [18] and a sit-in that's still on as well. I think it's ready to be posted. What do you think? -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 08:33, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

I think premature/minor. Relative to the scale of prior protests and the likelihood they will continue sporadically during the SCAF rule, I'm not sure it stands out enough. I'd wait for the beginning of the August 3 trials, unless the protests actually hit in the hundreds of thousands. Ocaasi t | c 14:10, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
The protesters on Friday were hundreds of thousands in Tahrir alone, not to mention Alex and Suez. As for the the 3rd of August trails, Dont hold your breathe, It's gonna be in Ramadan and most likely gonna be delayed. Today is the 3rd of the sit-in that has started this friday; Here is a photo on the set-in just moments ago [19]. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 19:46, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

A star!

Compass barnstar.png The Guidance Barnstar
For your work on the very useful WP:PSCOI help page, and also for helping newbies in the IRC help channel! (I see you already have one of these but you deserve another one too.) KFP (contact | edits) 16:48, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Kamal Abbas

I was wondering if you can wonna start a new article about Kamal Abbas? Please let me know if you are interested. Here's som info on him [20]. Thanks -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 06:55, 10 July 2011 (UTC) Ocaasi t | c 14:57, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Awesome :D That was fast. I trying to get a photo of him [21] just waiting for Hossam to get back home from Tahrir -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 18:46, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
I already left him notes on Flickr :-). The images are CC-By-SA non-commercial. Just switch the non-commercial and we're ready to go. Ocaasi t | c 20:21, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
I have him on twitter and skybe dude :D He is going home soon and will change the license as soon as he does. I know most of the activists in Egypt so if you ever need anything from any of them, just let me know. Once we get the picture, should we put it in DYK section? -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 21:28, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done [22] -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 22:01, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
DYK, good idea. I have a few more things to add, but once the expansion is done (within 2 days) we should definitely do DYK. Ocaasi t | c 23:34, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Found this video as well [23]. Found another picture that might be useful to the article [24] Also trying to find more info about the man; Date of birth and whatnot. A friend of mine will send some of the missing info that we need and I will add whatever we are missing. Let me know about the hook. Great job dude :D way to go -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 13:43, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Great, I'll take a look at it. Yeah, we have no basic bio information. Maybe some Arabic sources? I just have Daily News Egypt and Al-Ahram and Al-Masry, but I bet there are some articles which profile his personal life. There's a list of about 30 more sources on the talk page, most minor press mentions which might have something. I'll look for a good DYK hook. Ocaasi t | c 14:04, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Hey dude, are you ok? Havent seen you active in the last couple of days. Hope everything is well with you. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 10:07, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Hey, yeah I was having computer problems. I'm working on the hook now. Ocaasi t | c 14:08, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Divination and definition

Hi Ocaasi, first congratulations on your work on the WP:PSCOI page - it looks of value and relevance to me. I will go through it carefully.

Second, I have been working on a draft first paragraph for the main astrology page that includes divination but not as the label for the entire field. I would be grateful for your thoughts and input on this. I have tried to keep the changes to a minimum. I think the para could be further improved (or ideally rewritten), but consider that consensus is more likely improvements are done one step at a time. Robert Currey talk 11:46, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Further to my last comments, I wanted to let you know that I have asked for a straw poll on the astrology discussion page to find out whether we should seek alternative definitions (without specifying the wording at this stage) or should we keep divination as the most appropriate single term to define astrology. Robert Currey talk 19:02, 14 July 2011 (UTC)


If verifiable and reliably sourced information can help bring down a crime ring, it might also be used to help out a bit in the Middle East.

Fantasy Island: The Strange Tale of Alleged Fraudster Pearlasia Gamboa

If ever there was a case where IAR applied, this is it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:15, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Saul Alvarez

I'm trying to upload a picture of Saul Alvarez, the mexican boxer, but am not sure what is copyrighted and whats okay. Can you help me upload a picture of him please? Pass a Method talk 08:44, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Kamal Abbas

Symbol question.svg Hello! Your submission of Kamal Abbas at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Mikenorton (talk) 11:28, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

ANI Notice Defect re Crime Ring to Middle East help via WP: RS, V, and admin plants and censors

Info on a Middle East Info campaign using WP:V and WP:RS with free info on a small scale test on a crime ring was here, then all info blanked.

It is not hard to place admins into WP.

Posting notice to "volunteer admins" at ANI may attract "volunteers" who are plants first, and then others leave it alone. Info intended for you re threats to WP editors for writing articles using their WP emails is blanked, and a false" notice of unblock was made. Either the ublock was false, someone secretly undid the unblock, or that editor had his computer hacked to appear to be one of the first two.

I cannot access the links on threats to WP editors, and fear the deep admin plants may be the only admins involved, and other admins may not realize the seriousness of what is going on. I have been communicating with HS feds on all of the threats and deletions re WP, and so have many others. You should request restoration of the info I read on your talk page. If you cannot have it, something is very wrong, likely a defect in ANI allowing the fraudster admins to jump on things and censor it.

This pertained to the help you asked from me re Middle East. PPdd (talk) 21:07, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry PPdd, I'm not sure what this is about or what I have to do with it. Hope you're doing well. Cheers, Ocaasi t | c 21:14, 15 July 2011 (UTC)


I've been trying to get a picture of Abdi Bile on google, but i'm not sure whether the third pic in this row is allowed [25] Is it? Pass a Method talk 20:23, 18 July 2011 (UTC)


Hi Ocaasi, I don’t want to bother you, but as you’ve been helpful in the past, I was hoping you could take a look at some revisions I proposed to the Occidental Petroleum article’s Operations section. I have posted my revised draft of the section here on my user subspace. If you have any time in the near future to review it, that would be great and feel free to edit the subspace directly. Thanks! CBuiltother (talk) 20:25, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia Adventure

Long time no chat. How is The Wikipedia Adventure coming along? Pine (was GreenPine) talk 04:33, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Kamal Abbas.jpg

I was wondering if you could give you opinion on the picture nomination to be a featured picture. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 15:27, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Kamal Abbas

Symbol question.svg Hello! Your submission of Kamal Abbas at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Materialscientist (talk) 05:54, 27 July 2011 (UTC)


Hi Ocaasi, sorry to bother you again, but I was hoping you’d be willing to run over a couple of minor revisions I proposed for Occidental on the article’s talk page. I’ve posted a draft of the revisions on my user subspace and if you have time, I was hoping to get your feedback on the changes and feel free to make revisions to the subspace itself. Thanks again! CBuiltother (talk) 18:20, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Wael Khalil

I found another person that you might be interested in writing about. His name is Wael Khalil. Let me know if you are interested. BTW, A friend on Kamal Abbas showed him the article and he wanted me to send you his thanks :-) -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 13:04, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Working on it: User:Ocaasi/Wael_Khalil. Should be up in a few days.
Can you do a few things?
  • Check the See Also section and make sure the names are relevant. Add any other appropriate ones.
  • Check the Arabic name and make sure it's correct
  • Contact the uploader of the photograph and have her change the license to CC-BY-SA 2.0 (it's currently CC-BY-SA-NC, non commercial, which we can't use. She has to allow commercial reuse.
  • Do we have a template for Egyptian Activists and/or have all of the See Also names been added to either the 2011 Egyptian revolution template or the People of the 2011 Egyptian revolution template
Glad that you are interested :-)
  • Will work on the "See Also" section
  • I added his arabic name
  • Maggie released the photo under Creative Commons Attribution for few mintues only so we can use it here only and changed back to CC-BY-SA-NC but since I used File Upload Bot (Magnus Manske) to upload it, it wont be a problem :-)
  • I dont think we have a template for Egyptian Activists so I added only the ones that played a part during the revolution to 2011 Egyptian revolution template
Im also trying to get more info about him and Kamal like DOB but I think I might have a better luck with Wael since I know him on twitter :-) -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 22:15, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm interested. :)
Name looks good.
The photo fix doesn't really work. Anyone can use this photo and sell it if they follow the wikipedia license. The underlying image has to match or else it will always look like we have the wrong license. Really, if she's not willing to let others sell it, we can't use it.
Any bio information would be great. I think it's almost ready to move to mainpage. I'll give you a shout when it's up. Cheers Ocaasi t | c 22:20, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
  • I gave Wael your e-mail so he can get in-touch with you regarding some the missing facts (the date of birth, place of birth, etc)
  • I have talked to Maggie and she said that incase we face any problem she will change the license but I dont think its gonna be a prblem
BTW, THe DYK about Kamal got removed so you might wonna see what's the problem there. I hope we can still put this one there as well. Sorry couldnt reply sooner. Life is a B*tch -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 01:32, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I found this page and directly thought of you [26] :-) -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 19:41, 2 August 2011 (UTC)


Note. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 13:33, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Kamal Abu Eita

I found another person that you might be interested in writing about. His name is Kamal Abu Eita. Let me know if you are interested. PS: I cant believe I saw Mubarak in court yesterday; I Honestly was smiling the whole day. Oh BTW, I spoke to Carlos Latuff and will be e-mailing you a permission to use the following image: on your yahoo e-mail. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 06:26, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Change of plans, I asked yamaha_gangsta to forward the permission to you seeing how Carlos got in contact with him -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 08:44, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Hey dude, are you ok? Havent seen on wikipedia in a while. Hope everything is ok. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 07:58, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Hey, I've been on some trips and focused elsewhere. I might be in a bit more this month. I got the email for the latuff cartoons. I'll see what I can do with them. Cool about the Mubarak trial--quite a reversal of power and fortunes. How's Egypt otherwise? I hope you're doing well! User:Ocaasi 20:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk)
  • Glad to hear from you was kinda of worried there for a sec. Egypt is crazy, fights among many ppl about the SCAF, IslamicState VS. SecularState and Capitalist VS. Socialist. and of course Israel, the constitution, and up coming elections. Let me know when you are back in full swing, gotta few ideas for article that you might be interested in. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 05:40, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Hey dude, Glad to see you back in action, let me know when you are free. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 10:49, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Advice on NPOV Concerns

Hi Ocaasi, I was hoping you might have some thoughts on addressing certain NPOV issues with the Occidental Petroleum article that I discussed on the article’s talk page. After receiving feedback from Wikipedia administrator John, he and I implemented revisions on September 22 and 23 that were then undone by the user Cowboy128, who added the material originally. This user also went on to discuss my conduct as it pertains to conflict of interest on the article talk page, claiming that I have not been complying with Wikipedia’s policies and should cease all conversations related to that article.

Believing Cowboy128 is acting in good faith and hoping to keep the discussion civil, I have reached out to John on his talk page as well as the WikiProject Neutrality, but things seemed to have stalled despite John commenting on Cowboy128’s talk page. I was wondering whether you might have any thoughts or suggestions on how best to address the NPOV issues as well as the concerns of Cowboy128. Thanks and welcome back! CBuiltother (talk) 18:30, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi Ocaasi, thanks again for your initial help with the controversy over the material in the Occidental Petroleum article. I was also hoping you may have some further feedback on the responses from Cowboy128 and I on the article’s talk page. Thanks! CBuiltother (talk) 18:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Ocaasi, I don’t mean to rush things on the revisions to the Occidental Petroleum article, but I do believe it is in the best interests of Wikipedia to address some of the NPOV concerns we discussed. I realize you are probably busy with other projects, but was hoping you might suggest another editor or page I could go to for further help, or, if you’re willing, provide some additional feedback. Just to let you know, I have posted a similar message on John’s talk page, who I have also been working with on revisions. Thanks! CBuiltother (talk) 17:38, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Josh Valdez

You may also wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles. See the Article Wizard.

Thank you.

A tag has been placed on Josh Valdez, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article seems to be unambiguous advertising that only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the general criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item G11, as well as the guidelines on spam.

If you can indicate why the subject of this article is not blatant advertising, Speedy delete contest button.png. Clicking that button will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the article's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. You may freely add information to the article that would confirm the subject's notability under Wikipedia guidelines. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would help make it encyclopedic, as well as adding any citations from independent reliable sources to ensure that the article will be verifiable. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. GeorgeLouis (talk) 01:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Hossam el-Hamalawy

Hey dude, I was wonder if you are still interested in written about Egyptian activists. The article is shit to be honest and was written during the uprising but Hossam article could be much more interesting. The problem he is a complicated character and he happens to be a friend of mine and I am not sure I can write about but I can help you get all the info you need. I also think the article could break a record if posted in DYK. Let me know if you are in. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 23:44, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the help!

Just wanted to say thank you for the help in the IRC channel yesterday afternoon. The specific feedback was something that I needed, and you were a great help with that! Wiedenu (talk) 13:41, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

You're welcome! Ocaasi t | c 19:29, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Amina again

An editor called LothianLiz has cut a section reflecting adversely on Tom MacMaster out of the article Amina Abdallah Arraf al Omari. I reverted. We are discussing this on the talk page. Would you care to leave an opinion there? I cannot be certain what conclusion to draw from this, but LothianLiz is born and bred in Lothian, yet refers to the centre of Edinburgh as the CofE, which most Scots would think meant Church of England. It seemed odd to me. Abigailgem (talk) 20:22, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Following up on Oxy

Hi Ocaasi, just wanted to let you know that I’ve proposed revisions to the disputed material concerning executive compensation on the Occidental Petroleum article and thought you might be willing to review those revisions and provide any feedback you may have. My draft of the material is included in a drop box on the talk page. Thanks again for all your help! CBuiltother (talk) 15:10, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the cookies

Export hell seidel steiner.png I eated them, with a beer xD Tripet (talk) 06:18, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Feedback Dashboard upgrade

Hi Ocaasi,

Thanks for signing up for the Feedback Dashboard response team! I wanted to let you know that the tool just got an important update (see here for details). I also wanted to invite you to the IRC office hours session that Steven and I are going to hold this Sunday, December 4. Hope you can make it and share your experience/questions with us! Thanks again, Maryana (WMF) (talk) 00:01, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Oxy, again

Hey Ocaasi, I proposed some revisions to the Libya and Libyan Investment Authority sections on the Occidental Petroleum article's talk page last week, but have not received any response. If you're interested and not too busy, I'd appreciate any feedback you might have. Thanks! CBuiltother (talk) 15:04, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

upload a picture

hi, i try to upload a picture in wikipedia from mypicture but failed.will you help me please ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pankajdandi (talkcontribs) 23:06, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Occidental Petroleum

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Please voice your opinion in the Consensus section.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:20, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

What the heck man

hey you change what i wrote on the monopoly jr page back in early december and I think you should not have done that cause it hurt my feelings. i think you should have asked me before you just changed it. I mean seriously what is the point of having a "free encyclopedia" if you cannot edit freely. Also why the heck were you looking up monopoly jr any way. I have an excuse cause I'm ten what's yours. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:07, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Adventure

Hi! I'd been keeping half an eye on the wikipedia adventure which appears to have dwindled to nothing. Wondering if you were planing to push it forward again? WormTT · (talk) 10:26, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, Worm, to jump in here, but I also recently came across Ocaasi's work on this and am wondering if it will continue. Seemed like a great idea and a good deal of the ground work had been done. Even Jimbo weighed in with encouragement. Quinn STARRY NIGHT 18:26, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

STiki talkback

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Finally getting back into the swing of things after a busy work and holiday period. Thanks, West.andrew.g (talk) 23:18, 28 December 2011 (UTC)


Looks like we were thinking in parallel. WP:SOPA initiative/Action has the RFC.  :) Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 17:40, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Your input is needed on the SOPA initiative

Hi Ocaasi,

You are receiving this message either because you expressed an opinion about the proposed SOPA blackout before full blackout and soft blackout were adequately differentiated, or because you expressed general support without specifying a preference. Please ensure that your voice is heard by clarifying your position accordingly.

Thank you.

Message delivered as per request on ANI. -- The Helpful Bot 16:39, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

SOPA question

Thank you for asking about my SOPA objections. I have answered it on my talk page. --Radiokid1010 (talk) 00:55, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

SOPA typo


I may be wrong, but I did not change "users'" (possessive form) to "users", what I did is remove an extra "users". Check the diff:

There was "users users' web traffic", I changed it to "users' web traffic".

If I'm wrong, I apologise! if I'm not, please take care of reverting your revert. ;-)

And keep up the fight against SOPA!! --MauroVan (talk) 15:52, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Commons:Commons:Featured picture candidates/File:Kamal Abbas (cropped).jpg

Kamal Abbas cropped picture is nominated to be a featured on wiki commons. You can supported the first nomination so I wonder if you will comment to the current nomination. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 13:43, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

You've got mail!

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09:39, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

RE: IDea

good idea. though i suppose WP Revolutionaryies or WP: Revolutionary Icons may be a better name. Id be glad to help where i can (though not all). Ill be a lil busy till July 18, but here and then i can review/clean and add a little. then later ill proper add to it.

Also im currently workign on a GA/FA (Finnish parliamentarly eelction, 2011 which is ,yu prime focus. perhaps you can review it as an uninvolved editor ? ;)) 09:39, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


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09:39, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


Original Barnstar.png The Original Barnstar
This barnstar is awarded to everyone who - whatever their opinion - contributed to the discussion about Wikipedia and SOPA. Thank you for being a part of the discussion. Presented by the Wikimedia Foundation.

09:39, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Kamal Abbas (Cropped)

I was wondering if you could give you opinion on the picture nomination to be a featured picture. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 17:59, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you

Compass barnstar.png The Guidance Barnstar
I went off to work on other things, glanced at the IRC window just now and noticed that you're still helping the same person. For your tireless dedication to helping new contributors in this instance and others, I award you this Guidance Barnstar. Thank you. wctaiwan (talk) 09:25, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
+1; I wanted to do the same now! mabdul 16:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Just want to tell you

thanks for all your help with this project. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DNATESTER (talkcontribs) 20:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Of Possible Interest

Been talking to Jeff Bedford and noticed you mentioned a few ideas on his Talk page on COI editing that are parts of Wikiproject Cooperation. Thought you might be interested in joining the effort. King4057 (talk) 17:46, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

oh and/or this Wikimania submission. King4057 (talk) 04:53, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
I posted a lengthy response to your question on Wikiproject Cooperation back on my Talk page. Happy to have you aboard. We're growing, but need more volunteer editors experienced in dealing with COI. I think at least four of the Wikiproject members are paid editors like me. King4057 (talk) 19:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
I like your idea about COI ethics training. King4057 (talk) 18:43, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

me virinchi remeber??

firstly let me thank you for the effort you have taken to help our page get accepted in the wiki

now i just wanted to link this page to sourav ganguly's wiki page by adding a few lines about our movement so is it possible?? can you do it??? is it appropriate??? i tired to change the page but it was rejected so you may try it.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:41, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Alabama Shakes

Thanks so much for taking a look at my first article and cleaning it up. Looks much better.Drum4free (talk) 10:12, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

re. your message


I think i might have talked to you before.

Anyway....please check the following site:

Right at the bottom of it is one of the articles about my subject. If you google that newspaper, you will find that that is a major newspaper in Canada. I remember telling one of you that there are many articles written in the 80's etc. about this subject...but i needed to find those articles. I am still digging to get copies of other articles. It is hard cos he lived in many countries and trying to get copies of articles from those eras and countries is challenging cos archived newspapers are not available on the net that far back. But, if you go on this rootsweb page and scroll all the way down, you will see one article....and also, part ways through that page there are many books that he is listed in.

I see lesser accomplished and known people from Sri Lanka already on Wikipedia.

Please take a look. Thank you. Daughter 100 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daughter100 (talkcontribs) 21:28, 9 February 2012 (UTC)


I think i might have talked to you before.

Anyway....please check the following site:

Right at the bottom of it is one of the articles about my subject. If you google that newspaper, you will find that that is a major newspaper in Canada. I remember telling one of you that there are many articles written in the 80's etc. about this subject...but i needed to find those articles. I am still digging to get copies of other articles. It is hard cos he lived in many countries and trying to get copies of articles from those eras and countries is challenging cos archived newspapers are not available on the net that far back. But, if you go on this rootsweb page and scroll all the way down, you will see one article....and also, part ways through that page there are many books that he is listed in.

I see lesser accomplished and known people from Sri Lanka already on Wikipedia.

Please take a look. Thank you. Daughter 100 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daughter100 (talk • contribs) 21:28, 9 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daughter100 (talkcontribs)

Helping Hand Barnstar

Barnstar-abc.png The Helping Hand Barnstar
For helping people in IRC. Pinetalk 10:28, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
I'd like to second that. You're very helpful to new users. Face-smile.svg Rcsprinter (chatter) 17:54, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

afc template

see folowing edit: and think of using the preview next time. every time a template changes, all page (which transclude the template) are recached and thus cases a big server load with our AFC submission templates (~16k pages). Regards, mabdul 22:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

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Hopefully it's a spirited discussion. Consider me taking out some training wheels on good diplomacy and Wiki-debate. Key skills for someone in my role on Wikipedia.

For PR-Squared as a reliable source, I could cite they have been ranked as the 2nd top PR blog. I don't know if being popular necessarily qualifies them as a reliable source. Plenty of references about PR's prior misbehavior will have Jimmy Wales quoting COI policy (rather than citing the policy directly).

You stole the words from my mouth RE not making the connection for the reader between policy and CREWE. We have to state the facts and let readers reach their own conclusions. King4057 (talk) 08:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll point out, casually, and with no intention to dismiss your broader criticisms, that you are probably the most COI conflicted editor in the world when it comes to this article ;) But I take your points seriously and addressed them on the article's talk page. In general, I think the article meets notability guidelines, and is neutrally written. You make a much more subtle and skeptical point that the PR world is coming out in support of CREWE, and trying to make it seem like Jimmy is the bad guy here, and since the article relies on several PR sources or contributors with PR or CREWE connections, that we can't trust it, or at least are missing something. All I can say to that is, go find published criticism of the group. If you find it, and it's from a decent source, we'll include it.
I think PR-Squared's popularity speaks to its influence in the PR community and means we can use it, although carefully.
You're also right on that many articles completely conflate Wales' opinion with COI policy. If I wrote the article from what sources said about policy alone, we would be dead wrong that COI editing is prohibited. That's why I prefer quoting policy directly, though briefly. That's a tricky area, because if we do it in the wrong place, it will create an original synthesis, in that it will advance a point about CREWE that the sources don't make. So not only do we have to just 'state the facts' we also have to only state the facts in a way that doesn't inadvertently advance a position that's absent in the sources.
Hopefully more writing will come out about the group and its methods and we'll be able to flesh out a broader criticism section. Ocaasi t | c 08:20, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
It's kind of fun to think about how ridiculous my COI is. Despite thorny policy debates that could fuel geek wars for the ages, it's probably fair that guest blogs from CREWE members can be trusted for basic information about CREWE. These aren't likely to be contested and policy supports using direct sources for certain information. Then you can go down the thorny path of what qualifies a blogger as enough of an "expert" and so on. (whatever)
Honestly, I don't know how I got wrapped into giving a hoot. ;-)
Here's my suggestions anyway
  • This seems like a subtly one-sided statement: "who want to improve the relationship between their industry and the collaborative online encyclopedia" it would be equally valid to say "who want broader editing privileges in Wikipedia." (or maybe something in-between?)
  • The History section doesn't have any history in it, nor is one needed for a 1 month old Facebook group. I would suggest shrinking, dequoting and moving to a concise "Justification" section.
  • Right after "a pilot project that would allow" we could add an identical sentence to the example I provided from the Wikiexperts article on paid editing policy.
  • "Let’s keep an eye on this, especially since Mr. Wales appears to have listened and may be poised to make some concessions to the PR industry." I don't think this statement is actually true. I would concede to citing CREWE members for factual information about CREWE, but not for speculating on Jimmy's perspective, especially when it so obviously contradicts Jimmy's statement.
  • I believe a Criticism section could already be constructed, using Jimmy's quote and the comments from my blog you suggested.
My friendly suggestions. I think if these changes were made, it would be substantially more balanced and anti-paid editor advocates wouldn't be quick to take issue. King4057 (talk) 11:41, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Hey, btw the Wikimania panel I mentioned before was changed based on community feedback. It's now on "Maintaining a Neutral Encyclopedia when Users are Anything But." The thesis (I think) is this idea that through civility and following the rules, multiple editors with opposite bias' can create a neutral encyclopedia. For example, one legitimate complaint by PR people could be that - since certain forms of bias are more unfettered than others - Wikipedia's coverage of companies has gotten increasingly negative over time. Bias and COI swings both ways. Anyways, thought you might be interested. King4057 (talk) 12:00, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey Ocaasi. Thanks for the civil discussion. I've asked Mistress to weigh in on if she feels those edits would address her concerns over bias. Ultimately it's probably not the most important article on Wikipedia, but it is one that will draw attention. ;-) King4057 (talk) 17:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

More talkback

User_talk:King4057/CREWE Right back at you. I think our debate has run its course. Appreciate your collaboration and civility on such a heated issue. King4057 (talk) 23:21, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 20 February 2012

Your submission at Articles for creation

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Thank you for your recent submission to Articles for Creation. Your article submission has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. Please view your submission to see the comments left by the reviewer. You are welcome to edit the submission to address the issues raised, and resubmit once you feel they have been resolved.

Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia! Glrx (talk) 00:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's work

Thank you it work now — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 03:20, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Teahouse updates

Hi Ocaasi! A few updates for you about Wikipedia:Teahouse, since you're one of our awesome Teahouse hosts!:

  • The host lounge is open! Please take time to review the materials in the space and start contributing to the how-to pages. Your input is valuable. Not only is it great practice to get our minds thinking like hosts, but, you can also provide easy to understand instructions and sound bites for fellow hosts!
  • Join the conversation by participating on the host lounge talk pages[27][28]. We also have an IRC channel now for hosts to get to know one another, develop your skills, and eventually the channel will serve as an additional help space for new editors!
  • Let new editors get to know you by creating your Teahouse profile. Contribute your profile on the host page at the Teahouse! This serves as a fun way for new editors to get to know the people behind the usernames. You can post a photograph of yourself or an avatar, add a quote about yourself or something you enjoy, and share projects and activities you participate on wiki (with wikilinks).

Very exciting things are taking place, and we'll be opening the Teahouse no later than Monday. Feel free to ping me on or off wiki, and I can't wait to work with you to welcome new editors with a warm cup of tea :) SarahStierch (talk) 03:38, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

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Thank you for the encouragement on IRC. Pinetalk 10:41, 24 February 2012 (UTC)


This shirt suits you!


Pinetalk 09:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

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The Teahouse is Open!

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Hi Ocaasi! Great news: The Teahouse is open for business! We're ready to start inviting new users, answering questions and inspiring one another. If you haven't already taken a look at the links provided in the most recent Teahouse update, posted on your talk page, please do! Don't forget to add yourself to the Host page if you haven't already. What's next? Inviting hosts and reporting your invitation information.

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See you at the Teahouse! SarahStierch (talk) 18:58, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Ocaasi! Just dropping by to let the hosts know about some new suggestions I've made based on interactions at the Teahouse thus far. Please take a look when you can! Thanks and see you at the Teahouse. New suggestions regarding Q&A participation for hosts. SarahStierch (talk) 19:21, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

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14:55, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Re: Pageview tool

Hey Ocaasi. I think it's a great idea, and one I have thought about in the past. Unfortunately has proved difficult to bypass, and, as such, it does take rather an age to run. I'll be sure to look into it some more, though. - Jarry1250 [Deliberation needed] 13:43, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 05 March 2012

Not forgotten

I have not forgotten your request for assistance on your project a few months back. I have been working 16 hour days on something of great importance to a couple of elderly individuals ever since then. I wanted to let you know I will be back to help as soon as I can. Arab Spring is in the air. PPdd (talk) 01:03, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

reply. PPdd (talk) 01:53, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
reply. PPdd (talk) 02:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Del Rev

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04:33, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


Hey Ocaasi, just saw a great comment from you on the COI RFC and thought I'd drop by.

It's been almost a month, can we move the CREWE draft into the mainspace? I don't want to get too wrapped up in it, but we did both spend a considerable amount of effort balancing the page.

King4057 (talk) 21:29, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Teahouse ping!

Hi Ocaasi! We haven't seen you at the Teahouse yet since it opened and I just wanted to drop by and say hi and see if you were still interested in participating in the pilot -if so, great! And if not, that's fine too, but it'd just be great to know your status (or if you're busy and will be helping out soon!)! We need hosts to be helping invite and continue to answer questions on the Q&A page! Let me know if you're still interested in participating in the pilot, and hopefully we'll see you there :) Sarah (talk) 23:44, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


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16:28, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

The Tea Leaf - Issue One - Recent news from the Teahouse

Hi! Welcome to the first edition of The Tea Leaf, the official newsletter of the Teahouse!

Spring has sprung! Stop by the Teahouse for a cup of tea under the cherry blossoms.
  • Metrics are out from week one. Week one showed that the need for Teahouse hosts to invite new editors to the Teahouse is urgent for this pilot period. It also showed that emailing new users invitations is a powerful tool, with new editors responding more to emails than to talk page templates. We also learned that the customized database reports created for the Teahouse have the highest return rate of participation by invitees. Check out the metrics here and see how you can help with inviting in our Invitation Guide.
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  • Introduce yourself and meet new guests at the Teahouse. Take the time to welcome and get to know the latest guests at the Teahouse. New & experienced editors to Wikipedia can add a brief infobox about themselves and get to know one another with direct links to userpages. Drop off some wikilove to these editors today, they'll surely be happy to feel the wikilove!

You are receiving The Tea Leaf after expressing interest or participating in the Teahouse! To remove yourself from receiving future newsletters, please remove your username here. Sarah (talk) 16:07, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


I commented on the Cousens deletion review, as I'm sure you'll see. Maybe starting an article on one of the Cousens books would be helpful to establish notability. I've started a short article on a book article on 13 Bankers, for example. Would you like an email of some of the book reviews/sources I found? It seems there's the most commentary on Depression-Free for Life and Conscious Eating. Thanks. Jesanj (talk) 03:36, 12 March 2012 (UTC)


I have speedy deleted the article Corporate Representatives for Ethical Wikipedia Engagement under CSD A7. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:16, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

I have now restored this article; an utterly inappropriate deletion. Ironholds (talk) 10:24, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
I believe AfD is the proper forum for this article, if people object to the subject's notability or importance. I'd be happy to have a discussion about it there. Ocaasi t | c 11:15, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Nomination of Corporate Representatives for Ethical Wikipedia Engagement for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Corporate Representatives for Ethical Wikipedia Engagement is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Corporate Representatives for Ethical Wikipedia Engagement until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Alarbus (talk) 11:39, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Reply regarding Credo

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SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 09:01, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
Amazing news about Highbeam! Thank you, it is much appreciated! Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:15, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 :) Glad to help! Ocaasi t | c 16:24, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Nobel Prize for blagging

Nobel Prize.png Nobel Prize for blagging
Most amazing work. Thank you. FormerIP (talk) 17:02, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Urban dictionary gives quite varying definitions of blagging, so I admit I'm preemptively flattered, but also confused:
  • Knowingly or recklessly obtaining or disclosing personal data or information without the consent of the data controller.
  • From the French Blaguer or Blague meaning to joke.
  • To brag about something and it is a lie
  • To brag about yourself or something you did on your blog.
  • Wasting time on the internet, i.e. surfing, checking email, facebook, etc.
I assume you mean it well, but I'm a bit unsure of the lingo! Ocaasi t | c 17:18, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Well that's just typical of crowdsourced content! Here it is in a proper dictionary: [29]. Cheers again. --FormerIP (talk) 17:22, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Ah, to manage to obtain (something) by using persuasion or guile. Indeed! Ocaasi t | c 17:27, 14 March 2012 (UTC)


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A kitten for you!

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For your article creating. :)

LauraHale (talk) 04:15, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Even as a dog person, I am honored to have this kitten. I will display it proudly. Thanks!! Ocaasi t | c 04:18, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Problem with your signature, and how to fix it

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Hi Ocaasi, regarding HighBeam, I saw you respond to an editor who was asking about the privacy policy, that you would ask the company. But they would surely not require names and addresses, would they? That isn't mentioned anywhere that I can see. Credo just asked for the user name and an email address. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:06, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

The short 2 page registration asks for an email account and password (the email can be any, and it doesn't have to match your Wikipedia account); then a first, last name and your age range. There's no reason you have to give your real name as opposed to a Wikipedia name or other pseudonym. Age range is obviously just a courtesy question and you can lie if you like. All of that is happening on HighBeam's end and has no bearing on who gets accounts or how they are managed. Nor will I have access to people's free account sign-up information. All I will do is email activation codes through the Special:EmailUser function. There's a possibility to do some light statistical tracking to see which accounts were actually used, but that would also be on HighBeam's end and I would be extra cautious about asking for any information that could reveal people's identities (in other words, I'd ask for aggregate data about how often accounts were signed in to and used; or I might simply ask 'was account x actually used', perhaps as a criterion for re-applying. Even that is just speculative at this point and if there's concern about it can be skipped to just operate on total anonymity and good faith. If you want to guarantee anonymity, just use a throwaway email address and a fake name. Otherwise I think everything is above board here. Do you want me to ask HighBeam anything directly? Ocaasi t | c 20:19, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
No, that's fine, thank you. When I saw mention of the privacy policy, I was concerned they were going to ask for identifying details (address, credit card, etc), perhaps to follow up with other offers, or to extend the account after the year. But if that's not the case, then it's fine. Sorry to trouble you and add to your workload. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:02, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
No problem. Let me know if you have any other thoughts about it. Otherwise, cool that this is happening and accounts should be in editors' hands by mid-April. Cheers! Ocaasi t | c 22:21, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
It's going to be a big help having it available. Thank you again for all the work you've put into making it happen. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:04, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
I'll maintain that it was endless hours of slogging, but the secret, just between you and me, is I had the idea on a Friday and had the go ahead by Tuesday--literally, I just asked and they immediately saw it was a good idea for all around. Neat how that works sometimes. Thanks, though. I appreciate it. Ocaasi t | c 22:26, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Promoting HighBeam offer


I am attending the Women's History Edit-A-Thon in San Francisco today, and will announce the offer to everyone there. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:58, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Fantastic. Thanks so much! Cheers, Ocaasi t | c 18:45, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
There you go. I also wanted to say that I really appreciate how you people on en. are bringing this forward, plenty of info, promotion and so on. Good job. Greetings from a fellow wiki-campaigner. --Elitre (talk) 19:10, 17 March 2012 (UTC)