User talk:Ocfootballknut

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Welcome![edit]

Hello, Ocfootballknut, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{help me}} before the question. Again, welcome! I am One of Many (talk) 06:27, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Ocfootballknut, you are invited to the Teahouse[edit]

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Hi Ocfootballknut! Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia.
Be our guest at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a friendly space where new editors can ask questions about contributing to Wikipedia and get help from peers and experienced editors. I hope to see you there! Rosiestep (I'm a Teahouse host)

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A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
Great work on those Sunshine Tour articles! Cerebellum (talk) 11:11, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


College football team season articles[edit]

Ocfootballknut, thanks for your recent work to start seasons articles for all those California college football teams. A few things I want to point out:

  • All scores and won–loss record shoulds be punctuated with an endash (–), not a hyphen (-). See: WP:DASH for more on this.
  • You should not use state code abbreviations in prose, e.g. in the leads of articles. Write "Long Beach, California", not "Long Beach, CA". State code abbreviations can be okay in tables. In fact, they are standard in the schedule tables on the articles you've been working on.
  • Section headings should be capitalized in sentence case, not title case, e.g. "Team players in the NFL", not "Team Players in the NFL".
  • It would also be helpful if you could tag new college football articles you create with the WikiProject College football banner. See Talk:1969 Long Beach State 49ers football team. This helps other alert other editors to the new articles and integrate their efforts with yours.

Keep up the good work and let me know if you have any questions about this stuff. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 04:57, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh my. I've done 90 of these ! It will take awhile to make these changes Ocfootballknut (talk)
No rush. I can help you clean up what you've done already. Thanks for incorporating all this into your recent edits. A few more points:
  • The BYU Cougars should be referred to as "BYU", not "Brigham Young". Similarly the UTEP Miners should be referred to as UTEP, not "Texas-El Paso"; UTEP was "Texas State M&M" from 1914 to 1948 and "Texas Western" from 1949 to 1966.
  • In the schedule tables we use state code abbreviations for game sites, as you know, but it's best practice to link directly to the article in question by using piped links. For some major cities, like San Diego, the state is omitted entirely in the article name. Most, like Albuquerque, New Mexico, include it. See my last edit at 1986 San Diego State Aztecs football team on this point.
  • References that appear back-to-back in the text of an article should not have a space between them.
  • we use month-first date formatting for articles that are about American subjects. I think it's best to the format dates in references in such articles the same way, not day-first as you have been doing.

Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 04:36, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Was trying to match the source data in many cases. The media guides from the schools do not conform to what you're asking. For example, the San Jose State and San Diego State media guides list BYU as "Brigham Young". The on-line reference for colleges calls UCSB "California - Santa Barbara". But I will attempt to do what you ask. Working on CCAA & Long Beach State history now. Had a good day at the Cal State Long Beach library today. Ocfootballknut (talk) 05:34, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Sure, some reliable sources will refer to "Brigham Young", "Texas-El Paso", "Texas Christian" for TCU, "Southern Methodist" for SMU, "Southern California" for USC, etc. But we need to have consistency of Wikipedia particular in how articles or named and how teams are referencing in infobox, navboxes, and standardized tables like the schedule tables. When in doubt, defer to how in the article for the subject in question is named. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:27, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
Also, one more note. Take care when linking to an article that has parenthetical disambiguation, like Wayne Howard (American football). We want 1974 Long Beach State 49ers football team to link to the article for the football coach, not Wayne Howard, the comic book artist. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:29, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Question: I'm apparently doing something wrong with the templates I'm creating for the CCAA. I've compiled the information from 1939 to 1968 now. But I notice that the categories the templates have are flowing down to the articles that call out the template. (i.e. Category:1964 NCAA College Division football standings templates|CCAA & Category:California Collegiate Athletic Association football standings templates). I don't want the individual college yearly articles in the template category, yet the 1961 & 1964 articles I've created for Fresno State and Long Beach State are now showing up in the template category. How can I fix this? Ocfootballknut (talk) 05:53, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Never mind. I think I figured it out (using Noninclude). Ocfootballknut (talk) 06:47, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. I edited the 'season article campaign' page to include the 30 I've done for San Jose State and the 19 I've done for Long Beach State. As of now, I have the data for San Diego State for every year back to 1939, Fresno State every year back to 1939, San Jose State (the 1940's), and Long Beach State (all missing years). It's just a matter of getting to them. Ocfootballknut (talk) 02:47, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Hi, Ocfootballknut! I've been watching all of the work you've been putting into the Long Beach State football season articles; thanks for your contributions, they are very much appreciated! I see you appear to be interested in other California teams, too. If you're interested, there are plenty more football season articles that need to be created to fill out places like Template:Cal State Fullerton Titans football navbox, Template:Pacific Tigers football navbox, Template:Santa Clara Broncos football navbox, etc. More contributors who have expertise in one specific area or state is always a valuable addition to the project. Feel free to check out WikiProject College football, too, to "join the party," so to speak, with all of the folks over there. I see you've already had interactions with Jweiss and Cbl62; they're two of the best and most knowledgeable college football editors out there, and if you have any questions about sources, formatting, etc, they'll be sure to steer you right. Thanks, and happy editing! Ejgreen77 (talk) 06:19, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. I've got all the years of Cal State Long Beach done, but it turns out I have to add 12 NFL draftees because of an error in my source data report. Working on Fresno State (back to 1939), San Diego State (all years), San Jose State (1939-1949 & 1969-1998), and just decided to do part of Cal Poly (1946-1968) as well. That's about 80 more articles to create. Cal State Fullerton would be tough. They didn't really have a home stadium, but I don't live far from there and maybe they have some source data at their Athletic Department or library. We'll see what happens when I get done with the ones I'm working on. My goal is to get as much as I can for San Diego State / Cal State Long Beach and whoever else was in their conference over the years (I'm an alumnus of both schools). So there's a lot of possibilities left. Ocfootballknut (talk) 08:28, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

College football Barnstar[edit]

NCAAFootball barnstar.jpg The College football Barnstar
Ocfootballknut, for your fastidious efforts to build out Wikipedia's coverage of college football in California, I hereby award you this barnstar! Thank you and keep up the good work. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:54, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
Well deserved. Thank you for the recent work on such programs as Fresno State and Pacific. Cake (talk) 15:25, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm having fun! About 205 articles created ... I have about 75 left on my current "to do" list, but that seems to expand regularly! Ocfootballknut (talk) 23:19, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
If my research is correct, then the Loyola Marymount Lions played in the first game in the state, yet have no pages. Somebody should fix that wink wink nudge. Cake (talk) 05:11, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
There's another 100 or so on my second priority list right now, mostly in the 1920s / 1930s. Then I have a third priority list brewing. Loyola (St. Vincents) might make the tertiary list. Ocfootballknut (talk) 06:41, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

AFL draft info in infobox[edit]

As far as I'm aware, we're no longer doing this. In fact we've been removing them from infoboxes for some time. Lizard (talk) 19:02, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Just curious ... why? Are you only eliminating those who didn't sign with the AFL? As a long-time fan of "The Other League", I hate seeing it treated differently. Ocfootballknut (talk) 19:07, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
But it isn't being treated differently. If anything, Cannon's infobox should display the NFL team he was drafted by since he was signed by the AFL. John Henry Johnson was picked by the Steelers in the 1953 draft but didn't sign with them, instead choosing to play in the CFL. But we don't denote "(By the Pittsburgh Steelers)" in the infobox. Lizard (talk) 19:16, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
Ah, so it's the "(By the Oakland Raiders)" that's the issue, then? The reason I was including it was that I see a lot of the articles use the Gridiron Football template (maybe incorrectly), which has that as a parameter. By the way, I went through EVERY player from the 1960 AFL draft and put in / corrected their AFL draft info.Ocfootballknut (talk) 19:31, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
All those articles that use infobox gridiron football are using it incorrectly. That infobox was recently renamed to Template:Infobox CFL biography, and all former NFL/AFL players should instead use Template:Infobox NFL biography. The process of converting them all has been slow. Anyway, if you believe the NFL biography template should include that parameter you should bring it up for discussion at WT:NFL. Lizard (talk) 19:42, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Schedule tables[edit]

Ocfootballknut, a few more notes about schedule tables.

  • When you use Template:Cfb link, you want the team field to reflect the name the team had at that time, e.g. {{cfb link|year=1930|team=Northern Branch Aggies|title=Northern Branch}}, not {{cfb link|year=1930|team=UC Davis Aggies|title=Northern Branch}}. With the first way, if and when 1930 Northern Branch Aggies football team is created, everything will point to the right place. In fact, a bot will go and update that instance of Template:Cfb link with a simple link to the appropriate article.
  • The USC Trojans should always be referred to as "USC", not "Southern California", in infoboxes, navboxes, and tables.

Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 01:37, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

  • How do I figure out what the Wikipedia-correct cfb links are in a particular year? Davis is a good example. If I'd known Northern Branch would work I'd have used it. But so many of the ones I'm referencing will probably never be created I didn't think Wikipedia would want that. And based on our discussion about Cal State Long Beach (i.e. you want me to call it Long Beach State no matter what the correct name is in a particular year) I've been deferring to the current name and piping the correct name. So is there a table somewhere that says: For UC Davis, in 1930 use cfblink Northern Branch instead of UC Davis. For Alliant University, use Cal Western in the 1960s, use USIU in the 1970s and Alliant in the 1980s ?
  • Similar question about Whitman. Their website says their nickname is the "Blues". Wikipedia says their nickname is the Blues and I don't see an "old" nickname there. I downloaded a list of over 1,000 schools and their nicknames and it says Whitman is the "Missionaries". Where would I see the "Fighting Missionaries" as the correct nickname? I'm certainly not an expert in D-III football.
  • I'm ok with changing Southern California to USC. Hopefully I won't see any University of South Carolina games in my editing !

Ocfootballknut (talk) 02:37, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

For programs that have a navbox, e.g. Template:UC Davis Aggies football navbox, that's often a good place to check the name of the team in a given year, provided it's been set up correctly. You can see that I made edits to the Davis navbox just weeks ago to reflect the pre-UC naming. List of college nickname changes in the United States is also a good resource, but certainly not comprehensive. For the small schools like Alliant, you may just have to do your research and figure it out. Teams should always be referenced as they were at the relevant time including instances of Template:Cfb link. Redirects should be created as needed, e.g. California Western Gulls football. But perhaps "Cal Western" is more appropriate there? As for Cal State Long Beach, it seems its teams have always been referred to as "Long Beach State", at least since it became Long Beach State College in 1950 and on into the Cal State years. The University of South Carolina is simply "South Carolina" here on Wikipedia. "USC" is the Trojans of Los Angeles! Jweiss11 (talk) 04:46, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Whitman recently changed their fight name from "Fighting Missionaries" to "Blues". Since the football program folded in 1976, it keeps the old "Fighting Missionaries" name. Even if it was still around, seasons before the name change would reflect the old name. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:53, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
So let me get this straight. If, for example, I create a redirect for California Christian Panthers football, which points it to Chapman Panthers football, I can use the second cfb link instead of the first (braces omitted here)?
  • cfb link|year=1924|team=Chapman Panthers|title=California Christian
  • cfb link|year=1924|team=California Christian Panthers|title=California Christian
  • And by the way, I've never seen the school called California Western. Growing up in San Diego, in the early 1960s Cal Western was the 'cool school' out on Point Loma. This was before UCSD really existed. Ocfootballknut (talk) 06:40, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
That's correct with respect to the California Christian Panthers. Seems Cal Western is more appropriate than California Western. I just set up a redirect for Cal Western Gulls football. Please feel free to chance any instances of "California Western" to "Cal Western". Jweiss11 (talk) 17:10, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. As of today I've completed 443 college football articles so there's a lot of editing to do !! Ocfootballknut (talk) 18:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, Wikipedia is a rabbit hole! Thanks for making all the corrections. You can see the benefit in practice at 1948 Pacific Tigers football team. After you corrected the Santa Barbara link in the schedule table of that article, a bot automatically came through and replaced the cfb link template with a direct link to 1948 Santa Barbara Gauchos football team. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:14, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Ocfootballknut, why are you making edits like this one? If the relevant team articles exists, e.g. 1957 UC Santa Barbara Gauchos football team, you don't need to use cfb link. Doesn't make any sense. A bot is just going to revert it back. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:44, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Also, I think "Unit" can be dropped from the Cal Poly Kellogg-Voorhis Broncos football teams. Furthermore, are we sure the football teams weren't simply referred to as "Cal Poly Pomona" even when the school was technically called " Cal Poly Kellogg-Voorhis" or "California State Polytechnic College, Kellogg-Voorhis"? See: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/9098674/endemano_led_stags_score_first_win_over/. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Some of the edits I'm doing are simply to make sure the wording of the reference notes are correct. Knowing that I'm going to have to make well over 1,000 changes based on this conversation, it's quicker for me to copy the entire correct entry from my Word document (including the cfblink section) than parse it and only include the group note. I'm counting on the bot to do what you are saying. Since it's not a human being, I didn't think it was a big deal for it to do that. It won't be "reversing" anything I do, it's getting it back to where it should be without extraneous manual effort. As to Cal Poly Pomona, from 1938 to 1955 they weren't even in Pomona (they were in San Dimas). If the collective "you" think it should be called Cal Poly (Pomona) from 1956 to 1971, I wouldn't object. This is another example like Cal State Long Beach vs. Long Beach State. And at this point I don't care enough either way to be worried about it. I've gone so far past what I really started out wanting to do here (complete SDSU) it's a matter of diminishing returns now. Ocfootballknut (talk) 05:39, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

More style/formatting notes for college football season articles[edit]

Ocfootballknut, a few more notes on the college football season articles:

  • When referencing opponents in the infobox or lead of an article, you should use the same season-specific links that you are using the schedule tables. You should make use of Template:cfb link there as well, where needed. See my recent edits at 1980 Cal Poly Mustangs football team.
  • There's no need to put a comma between the result and the score for postseason games in the infobox. Standard practice on hundreds of articles is to have no comma there, e.g. 2016 Clemson Tigers football team.
  • Not sure those headers for playoffs games in the schedule table are needed, given that the playoff games are identified as such parenthetically in the "Site" field. I know these headers are used in a few places, but it's never been a standard, accepted practice to have them. Higher trafficked articles like 2016 North Dakota State Bison football team don't employ them. This might be something we could discuss at Wikipedia:WikiProject College football to get more input from others.

Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 02:09, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. All of the things you mention I've taken from other examples I've seen so I'm more than happy to comply with at least the first two. The third is interesting, however. I first saw that today and liked how it set the playoff games apart from the rest of the season. I wouldn't do that with a bowl game, since it's traditionally just a single game tacked on to the end of the season. I think that's what people would normally consider the post-season in college football (particularly at the top level). But I personally think it helps when we're talking about postseason at the lower level. Just one person's opinion. BTW, I've now completed 556 different articles regarding California college football. I currently have 141 more on my current "to do" list. But with the demise of cfbdatawarehouse, data below D-I FBS is harder to come by. Ocfootballknut (talk) 05:55, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

College Division football rankings[edit]

Ocfootballknut, I appreciate your efforts on those College Division football rankings lists. Please take a look at my edits on the ones your created so far regarding naming schemes for the various teams. Miami (OH) was known as the Miami Redskins before 1996 and we have articles for every season going back to 1943. Also check out the naming scheme for UMass. The Chattanooga Mocs were known as the Moccasins until 1997. There are a few others examples in my edits. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 00:29, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

For the most part I'm ok with your edits. However, because these are essentially "quotes from a newspaper" I don't agree with changing quotes to agree with 2017 terminology. That's what piping and linking is for. So here are a few examples that I think should be reverted:
  • The 1958 polls do NOT refer to the school as Northeastern State. It is called Northeastern Oklahoma in the polls. No problem with RiverHawks vs. Redmen.
  • Same issue with the 1959 polls
  • The 1959 poll calls the school Cal Poly at SLO, not just Cal Poly
  • The 1959 poll calls the school Pittsburgh (KS), not Pittsburgh State
  • The 1959 poll calls the school Massachusetts, not UMASS

Ocfootballknut (talk) 01:12, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

The sources may all refer to a given team a number of ways, but in tables like this we should always use the primary short name. And our primary short names should indeed reflect the naming of the team at the time, not in 2017. The article is 1959 Cal Poly Mustangs football team. That means the short name is "Cal Poly". The article is 1959 UMass Redmen football team. That means the short should name should be "UMass". Perhaps "UMass" wasn't in dominant usage then? Maybe, but then we need to rename some articles. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:19, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Since these files are meant to reflect what was actually published on specific dates in specific papers, I will continue to put the school names in how they are actually shown in the polls. That's also why there's a footnote and a link back to the original newspapers for every entry. Rewriting history is the role of somebody other than me. Ocfootballknut (talk) 05:52, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
You would not be rewriting history, but you surely are missing the point, and forcing me to do a lot of unnecessary clean-up work. The goal here is to create an encyclopedia that reflects the verifiable sources, yet presents all the facts in an internally consistent fashion. If the 1959 Cal Poly Mustangs football team should really be called 1959 Cal Poly SLO Mustangs football team, well let's determine that. But there needs to be a consistent primary name for this topic that can be used in tables like the ones you are building. Jweiss11 (talk) 07:03, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Obviously we are talking past each other as it pertains to quoting copyrighted material. Ocfootballknut (talk) 08:09, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure where we stand with this. I see you've taking using the standard short names like "UMass" in many place and to putting notes where given teams are refereed to otherwise in the sources. That approach is fine by me. That being said, Pittsburg State Gorillas football should be refereed to as "Pittsburg State", not "Pittsburg (KS)". IUP Crimson Hawks football should be "IUP", not "Indiana (PA)". I'm happy to bring some others into the discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject College football if this remains a point of contention for you. Also, in the legend of these poll articles, the "(#–#) Win–loss record" row should be punctuated with endashes, not hyphens. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 13:53, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
Just created the 1973 College Division ratings article. Needed to make a decision about how to do it, since there really wasn't a college division in 1973. But AP & UPI published College Division ratings in 1973 & 1974, not Division II. So it can be done a few ways: (1) Put it in as College Division, and create a short Division II that references back to College Division; (2) Put it in as College Division and do a Redirect in Division II back to College Division; (3) Put it in as College Division and don't create any Division II page; (4)(5)(6) Do the opposite of 1, 2, 3. I chose (1), but I'm sure you'll want something different so I'll hold off on doing 1974 until I see a response on 1973. P.S. I never even looked at the legends before your note above. I had just copied them from elsewhere. My templates now contain the "endashes", not hyphens. Ocfootballknut (talk) 12:07, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:San Francisco State Gators football navbox[edit]

Ambox warning blue.svgTemplate:San Francisco State Gators football navbox has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Ten Pound Hammer(What did I screw up now?) 02:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)