User talk:Okeyes (WMF)/Archive 4

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You've got mail, Okeyes (WMF)!

Hello, Okeyes (WMF). Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Osarius - Want a chat? 13:39, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Signing posts

Hey Oliver. Looks like you didn't sign your newsletter post on anyone's Talk page: for example. I'm surprised Sinebot isn't roaming around! :D Jesse V. (talk) 16:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The phrase is, I believe, "failwhale" :P. I blame the heat! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 18:57, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • looks outside* What heat? I'm in Alaska! We have one of the coldest Julys on record! :P Jesse V. (talk) 21:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
hate. so much hate. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 07:21, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Not so fast. During the wintertime it's easier to blame things on the cold, since temperatures here in south-central can drop to -30 or -40F. Did you know bubbles freeze in mid-air at 40 below? :) Jesse V. (talk) 07:50, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I didn't, but that sounds hella-cool to watch :). Personally I've always been at home in the cold; some day I'll move to Vermont and camp out screaming "you can take our guns, but you can never ta-oh, okay, actually I'm informed you cannot take our guns. Terribly sorry for the confusion" ;p. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 08:12, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
With the Scottish accent and everything? Awesome. The only opportunity I've ever had to do any kind of battle-cry is when Utah State has a game of Humans vs Zombies for a week. :) Jesse V. (talk) 16:26, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Scottish? Haud yer wheesht! I'm an Englishman in Wales! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 17:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
It's not difficult to quote Braveheart with a Scottish accent, no matter where you are from. In any event, don't worry: Scotland has bagpipes and lakes, Ireland has potatoes, taverns, and alcohol, and England has Top Gear, Spitfires, and J.R.R Tolkien. England wins. :) Jesse V. (talk) 00:24, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
England wins?! Pfft. We have Scotch. I'd like to see Mr Keyes function without his Scotch on the weekend. OohBunnies! (talk) 05:10, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
I see your Scotch and raise you the Olympics. England still wins. :P Jesse V. (talk) 05:19, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
I see your Olympics and raise you 8 billion the country can't afford. Very smart, London. OohBunnies! (talk) 05:21, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
I fold. Jesse V. (talk) 05:55, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Brilliant Idea Barnstar Hires.png The Brilliant Idea Barnstar
For the AFTv5! Electric Catfish 21:24, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks so much! :) Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:01, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

New Page Triage

Just a question for you that you have probably already answered several times. I have Autopatrolled on my main account and i create articles a lot of the time when sizeable and time consuming in my user space, my Mobile account does not have auto patrolled and i use this for mobile and maintenance tasks such as moving my user space to article space. Will my articles show as patrolled because my main account created it or not patrolled because it was moved by the mobile account without it. I know wasn't a problem with NPP as that didn't show when moved. Thanks in advance.Blethering Scot 23:55, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

At the moment, it'll show as unpatrolled, but the fix for that bug is actually in the deployment we're making this week :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:00, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
So if i move with the main account would that still show un patrolled. Just trying to get clear in my head i.e. is it the account that moves its problem or just a glitch.Blethering Scot 00:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, in both cases it'll show as unpatrolled :(. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok thanks, the new page triage is far better than NPP and thats with it not being fully implemented. Thanks for the advice appreciate it. Blethering Scot 00:17, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
No problem! I'm really looking forward to the next set of features for it :). And on that note, off to bed with me - 1am is late :S. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:19, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

5 Flags

Isn't it supposed to be auto-hidden? Dan653 (talk) 16:38, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

It should be, yep; I only see four flags in the "details" page. Submitting a bug report - thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:42, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Are bug reports publicly viewable, and has it been fixed yet? Dan653 (talk) 16:39, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Barnstar thanks!

I'm glad reading that email cheered you up (sorry for the long delay in responding; I'm still working through a lot of post-Wikimania stuff. Making progress, believe it or not). I had a long, hot, humid drive home, so it was nice to see all that when I got back as well.

I am making serious plans to go halfway across the world next year; I hope I will be able to catch that panel as well. Daniel Case (talk) 06:54, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Great! You'll love it; we're changing up the format substantially. It's going to be very long, though :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 11:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Not as long as the flight there will be :-). Daniel Case (talk) 17:21, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Oy, I know the feeling. You should see my itinerary for my next trip to SF - I leave the house 8am UTC, get in at 5am UTC the next morning. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:41, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

AFTv5 Bot

After the issues are fixed, what do you think about having a BRFA for a bot that will add the AFTv5 to every article? Best, Electric Catfish 23:00, 2 August 2012 (UTC).

Well, it no longer needs the category to function :). Once the issues are fixed we'll change "10 percent" in the config file to "100 percent" and it'll be done. The category is a way of adding it, sure, but for obvious reasons (4 million edits to fully deploy it!) we've worked out a more efficient mechanism. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:08, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Great! Electric Catfish 23:17, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


check the arrows and the black "hidden" text

BTW: I'm checking if I can do create linking buttons on my own atm; but please let somebody fix that problem in that image: I just tested this with my non-modified public user account wikignome (talk · contribs): This looks simply too ugly! Please check the AFT in other browsers and with other skins! I would nothing say if it is a userprojects/script, but this is a paid stuff by the WMF. Check WP:AFCH: we have recognized multiple problems with 'cologne blue' and with the bad old IEs... Regards, mabdul 11:21, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, modern is a very rarely used skin :S. We've built in monobook and vector support, right now the priority is extending it to things like IE7 and mobile. But if we can fit in Modern and it justifies itself, we will :).
On the cologne blue front...yeah. We're not developing things to work within that skin (that is, specifically so that they most definitely will); it's simply not practical. If we had to support every old skin then we'd never finish building anything :S. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 20:23, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Mailing List

Could you do me a favour and take User:Edinburgh Wanderer off of whatever you use to compile your messages and replace with this username. Despite a redirect to my current talk page its going on the old one every time. i did change my name on the newsletter section but maybe missed something. Unsure why the redirect isn't kicking in.Blethering Scot 20:08, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Headdesk; I'll purge my list. Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 20:25, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks.Blethering Scot 20:55, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

how to IRC?

I have Chatzilla, but it doesn't seem to go there. What do do? MathewTownsend (talk) 20:15, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Which channel are you trying to connect to? You can always create a connection for yourself using {{Freenode}}. For example, if you wanted to access #wikipedia-en you would type {{Freenode|wikipedia-en}} which gives you #wikipedia-en connect. Click connect and you can access it. In addition, you can join a channel while on IRC by typing /j #CHANNELNAME. If I was in #wikipedia-en I would type /j #wikipedia-en-help to join the help channel. Ryan Vesey 20:20, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
What Ryan said (thanks, Ryan!). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 20:26, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! ok, I'll try typing that. Had no idea it was so easy. MathewTownsend (talk) 22:32, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Well, I've still not been able to effectively use one of the chat clients (although I've never used Chatzilla). I've always used the simple version those links give. Ryan Vesey 22:34, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Chatzilla is easy peasy to use. It's a good one to start with. I guess some of the more "fancy" clients might seem sort of overwhelming to IRC newbies. OohBunnies! (talk) 23:19, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
well, how to you get Chatzilla to go anywhere? I can start it up but I can't enter #wikipedia-en or anything. How to you tell Chatzilla where to go? MathewTownsend (talk) 00:45, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
You can open a new tab then type irc:// into that tab. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:49, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

The Tea Leaf - Issue Five

Stop by for a tasty glass of wiki-iced tea at the Teahouse, today!

Hi! Welcome to the fifth edition of The Tea Leaf, the official newsletter of the Teahouse!

  • Guest activity increased in July. Questions are up from an average of 36 per week in June to 43 per week in July, and guest profile creation has also increased. This is likely a result of the automatic invite experiments we started near the end of month, which seeks to lessen the burden on hosts and other volunteers who manually invite editors. During the last week of July, questions doubled in the Teahouse! (But don't let that deter you from inviting editors to the Teahouse, please, there are still lots of new editors who haven't found Teahouse yet.)
  • More Teahouse hosts than ever. We had 12 new hosts sign up to participate at the Teahouse! We now have 35 hosts volunteering at the Teahouse. Feel free to stop by and see them all here.
  • Phase two update: Host sprint. In August, the Teahouse team plans to improve the host experience by developing a simpler new-host creation process, a better way of surfacing active hosts, and a host lounge renovation. Take a look at the plan and weigh in here.
  • New Teahouse guest barnstar is awarded to first recipient: Charlie Inks. Using the Teahouse barnstar designed by Heatherawalls, hosts hajatvrc and Ryan Vesey created the new Teahouse Guest Barnstar. The first recipient is Charlie Inks, for her boldness in asking questions at the Teahouse. Check out the award in action here.
  • Teahouse was a hot topic at Wikimania! The Teahouse was a hot topic at Wikimania this past month, where editor retention and interface design was heavily discussed. Sarah and Jonathan presented the Teahouse during the Wikimedia Fellowships panel. Slides can be viewed here. A lunch was also held at Wikimania for Teahouse hosts.

As always, thanks for supporting the Teahouse project! Stop by and visit us today!

You are receiving The Tea Leaf after expressing interest or participating in the Teahouse! To remove yourself from receiving future newsletters, please remove your username here. Sarah (talk) 08:33, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Curation toolbar

I see "The curation toolbar, our Wikimedia-supported twinkle replacement," on someone's talk bar. I use WP:Twinkle frequently, but sometimes I want more, so tell me about it. --DThomsen8 (talk) 14:33, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so; TLDR version :). Twinkle is fantastic - I use it constantly in my volunteer role for things like NPP - but it has a few downsides we're trying to correct. One is an obvious one; this is going to be Wikimedia-supported, which means it (hopefully) won't break with every MediaWiki upgrade. Second, we're trying to go for a much clearer UI - bigger text, less clutter, that sort of thing. Third - my favourite bit - there are keyboard accelerators :D. There's a more full explanation and some screenshots over on mediawiki, which you might enjoy :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 19:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Okeyes (WMF). You have new messages at Steven (WMF)'s talk page.
Message added 00:32, 7 August 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

I don't usually leave talkbacks, but since Steven's talk page is busy, I thought I'd give you a heads-up. David1217 What I've done 00:32, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Education namespace

I heard reference to an education namespace (or something along that lines) at the village pump. Then, I saw Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions#Where to put my Wikipedia-related course?. Do you know anything about it or can you point me to a WMF member who does? Ryan Vesey 15:51, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I would speak to User:Sageross for that; he's the point man on this :). It's something Global Development is working on. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 17:50, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Page ratings

Hi. Page ratings on Cancer pain have been 5, 5, 5, 5 for the last 6 months. I think it's a pretty good article (I wrote it!) but it seems a bit unlikely to me that any article would rate like that without the occasional dip. Is the old page rating tool still working? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 20:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Hmn; it should be! Maybe not much traffic? :S. To be honest, I don't think anyone is actively working on the old tool, and we should be replacing it fully in a couple of months (or less, if we can fix the software issues sooner). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 20:17, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Cool. My public adores me. :) --Anthonyhcole (talk) 21:02, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Understandably; the article rocks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:50, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
From one enthusiastic primary editor to another: well done! • Jesse V.(talk) 22:11, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you. :) --Anthonyhcole (talk) 22:33, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Curation toolbar...

Loved my first drive around the block! --j⚛e deckertalk 00:19, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

A pie for you!

A very beautiful Nectarine Pie.jpg LOVING the curation toolbar! Sooooooooo much nicer than Twinkle. Seriously... I'd switch in a heartbeat to using it across the entire Wiki. :) .... But there is one thing. Does it add CSD'd/PROD'd articles to any sort of log? I just like to have a record of those sort of things... Like Twinkle does... But in any case, enjoy the pie! You deserve it! Theopolisme TALK 00:29, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Totally agreed! We're discussing prioritising that feature right now :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:06, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Brilliant Idea Barnstar Hires.png The Brilliant Idea Barnstar
For the New Page Triage tool! I love it! Yet another awesome idea from Oliver Keyes! Electric Catfish 00:35, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Hey! --Jorm (WMF) (talk) 00:58, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Brandon gets a teeeeeny bit of the credit here (read: almost all ;p). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:05, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Warning attackers

Hi, Oliver. The new system seems to be going down well, and I'm sorry to be the first to have a criticism, but I have just deleted an attack page and, checking to see that the attacker had been properly warned, was surprised to see this. That would be fine for most speedies, but attacks are different, and we should not be offering an attacker kind words and time to improve his attack - AGF is not a suicide pact, as they say. I think that, for attack pages, the warning should be much more like {{uw-attack}}. In particular, it should make clear that it is a final warning, and any repetition will result in a block. Regards, JohnCD (talk) 01:08, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, wrong place - I should have posted this on the project talk page. I've done that now, so ignore it here. Cheers, JohnCD (talk) 15:19, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Cool; I'll reply there :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:09, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


The New Pages Feed should default to looking at the end of the list not the start. That will reduce the amound of accidental biting for super fast csd tagging of articles Spartaz Humbug! 17:12, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

We've been discussing this a lot internally, and the conclusion is that probably wouldn't be acceptable :(. The priority for a lot of patrollers is "getting the bad stuff out of Wikipedia"; this is going to be at the front, and from that POV the front should be the first port of call because we want to kill copyvios and attack pages as soon as we can. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 17:24, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

5 Flag Bug

Any updates, because it's still ongoing: [1] and [2]. Dan653 (talk) 22:37, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

You mean that it isn't hiding it? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 02:09, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

AFT5 user warnings

Hi Oliver, I've just left a message for Steven and Maryana about the user warning templates and I was wondering if you would mind having a look as well (if you get a chance)? They're at User:Callanecc/sandbox/AFT5. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 08:13, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Shall do :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 11:12, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks four weighing in, I've left you a question and comment on the talk page. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 12:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Page Triage newsletter

Hi. I'll take a look when I have more time. But I just wanted to drop a note expressing my main concern. If this replaces twinkle, then, I'd like to see a way for admins to "remove" the ability from editors if necessary. - jc37 23:31, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

So, twinkle will still be useable :). It's not replacing it in that sense - it just improves on twinkle in the one context of page reviewing and patrolling, and we hope that people will switch to use the toolbar in that situation. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:33, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Twinkle should be removable too. I'm already working on several proposals before the community, please give me time before suggesting I start another : )
(Which is also part of why I haven't gotten back to the rollback thing, incidentally...) - jc37 00:04, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Well, making twinkle removable would be...very hard. If they've installed it manually, you could kill it by salting their .js page, but when it's a gadget? It may be out of our (the community's) control :(. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:44, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
I'll have to find it, but I recall a note about this somewhere, back when they were implementing twinkle. Only a couple people commented, so they didn't bother to implement the removal feature. So I would guess that it wouldn't take a whole lot to do. - jc37 21:28, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


Do you know the answer to this question about AFT? benzband (talk) 13:38, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to my attention! Now resolved :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:40, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Cool. He also left a reply ;) benzband (talk) 10:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Any chance I can hire you as my PA? :P. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 15:38, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Does that stand for "canvassing assistant"? Sert - happy smile.svg benzband (talk) 16:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
I plead the Fifth :P. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:05, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
You have no Fifth! Ryan Vesey 21:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Reminds me of an old joke: They're a very clannish family - Whenever four are gathered, there's always a fifth : ) - jc37 22:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
I am not a number, dammit! :P. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:38, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Not a number, but a quantity, perhaps? : ) - I wonder how much Iron holds... - jc37 00:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────See, y'know where my username actually comes from? It's the biggest letdown :P. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:17, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

AFT olympic surprises

Love the list of written feedback you can get on your watchlist.

The national olympics articles are weird: the US gets all three 5s and one 4 as averages of more than 50 ratings (this is rare indeed). Britain gets three 4.5s and 5 for complete (huh?). NZ gets 5, 5, 5, 3.8. Germany 3.3, 1.5, 2.8, 3.6. Australia gets 1, 4, 1, 1 (pretty objective but untrustworthy ... come to think of it, do the punters know how they are different?) A low score for "complete" is understandable given the evolving real-time event nature of the articles, but the other ratings are a real surprise. France has no ratings. Canada has only one response. Do we have the data for the whole olympic period? I wonder whether there's a positive correlation between readers' ratings and medal success. Tony (talk) 08:13, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Hmn; we should have it in a dump somewhere! If you're interested in doing some analysis I can ask Dario to pull it out of...wherever he keeps it. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 15:37, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Not really at the moment. It's a pity the results can't just accumulate ... forever. Bigger numbers is better stats, and it would avoid the meaninglessness of one or two results just after these cut-offs. More interested in the extraordinary disparaties among the nations. Most ATF results have seem to hover around 4 for everything. Tony (talk) 03:46, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Is this really a WMF member?

See Wikipedia:Changing username/Simple#SPage (WMF) → S Page (WMF) and my response. Is there really a WMF member named "S Page"? Ryan Vesey 21:35, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Note that if S Page is not a WMF member, we might need to do an SPI with User:SkierpageRyan Vesey 21:38, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
User:SpageTest0723 would also be thrown in there, although it would be a legitimate alternate account. Ryan Vesey 21:39, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
He is, yep :). Lovely guy, odd name! I've validated/verified his account. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:43, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Every member of WMF is odd. Of course some are more odd than others. *cough* Oliver *cough*. Bgwhite (talk) 22:03, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) Chuckle. Theopolisme :) 22:06, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
I should mention, in case it's not already obvious, that SPage (WMF) is in fact the very same Skierpage. This is what happens when we hire from the community! :-P Maryana (WMF) (talk) 22:29, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Ah, inbreeding. Well, that sure does explain alot of things. Bgwhite (talk) 22:48, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Indeed; I've often attributed your high edit count to the seven fingers you have on each hand. Helps with typing speed ;p. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:38, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Interpreting my public log

Since you have more userrights and whatnot than I do, perhaps you can see more into this than I can. What does "unhelpful", "flag", "resolve", and "resolve (done!)" mean? There's no link provided to the contribution in question, but I have cross-checked a few of them and I can't see anything out of the ordinary. Are they indicating my ratings for feedback from AFT5? That doesn't explain the "resolve" though. I'm just a bit puzzled and thought you might be able to help. :) Jesse V. (talk) 07:31, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

The hell? Well, it's AFT5 related, definitely, but I've never seen that before. I think the disabling of AFT5 has caused everything else in the line to be removed; I'd suggest we wait until the tool is fixed and deployed again before investigating, simply to eliminate the disabling as a possible cause.
Alternate explanation; you're secretly an Alaskan Hulk. "HULK HELPFUL. HULK UNHELPFUL." :P. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 10:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Haha i just came here to rant about the tool having disappeared. BTW Jesse, this is happening to me too (see here) and is suspect everybody else as well. benzband (talk) 19:11, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
"HULK EDIT!" If there's anything around that deserves the title of the Alaskan Hulk, it would probably be the grizzly bear, with moose coming in a close second. On an unrelated note, I'm pretty excited because I just opened my first bot account: User:StubSyncBot. Makes up for the confusion I was feeling earlier over this log. Jesse V. (talk) 19:34, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Nicely done! :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:44, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

It is indeed related to AFT5. See this. • Jesse V.(talk) 16:23, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


Can we create a Special:NPF redirect or can you not redirect special pages? Alternatively, I could find someone to write a java script to put it into the sidebar. Ryan Vesey 16:45, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we can :(. Would this script be for individual users, or for all users? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:48, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
I'd hopefully find someone who can create a script that anyone could install in their common.js page. It would probably link from the toolbox. Ryan Vesey 16:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
That'd work :). We are actually going to discuss more prominent linkage, but no specifics yet. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:51, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Sidebar script.16:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
So, this is subject to being moved but if you add importScript('User:Ryan Vesey/sidebar.js'); to your common.js page, you'll have a link in your sidebar. I didn't create it so don't give me any credit and I want to make sure it is acceptable for it to remain in my userspace before I tell anyone else. Ryan Vesey 18:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Okeyes (WMF). You have new messages at Wikipedia talk:Article Feedback/Feedback response guidelines.
Message added 11:39, 20 August 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Oliver, there is a question/comment on WP:AFT5/FRG about WMF's planned use of the resolved filter. You may be able to provide some insight? Thanks for the email regarding the feature and page protection :) Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 11:39, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you

Pass this on to the rest of the WMF members. Many thanks for all of the work that you and other members of the Wikimedia Foundation do to make this site great. So many editors downplay the importance of the WMF and don't see how the work you guys are doing in your official capacity. It seems like there are a editors who like to assume the WMF is not part of the community and then fail to base their decisions on the merits of the idea. Instead, they say it was Not invented here and reject it. In any case people will always be more vocal in their opposition to a change than people are in their support for one. In any case, thanks again for all of your work. We couldn't do all of this without you. Ryan Vesey 13:37, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm sat here with a small but quizzical smile on my face :). Honestly, people have spent the last week chucking stuff at me - I was actually thinking of taking some time off. Thank you so much for turning that around!
I'll pass it on as widely as I can :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 18:52, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

AFT 5 again

Hey Oliver, I hope everything is going well. I'll start off on a tangent, are you salaried, and if you aren't, do you get paid when you work on the weekends from your Okeyes account? Now to the point: What happened here. It looks like there is no indication of any manual helpful or unhelpful tagging, but the feedback tool marked it helpful, unhelpful, helpful, unhelpful, then helpful again. Any idea what that is about? Again, I hope you're having a good day and have a great week. Ryan Vesey 05:53, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

A known bug :(. Basically, the tool gets used by IPs; they mark it up, mark it down, mark it as abuse, whatever...which would be fine if the software didn't consistently identify these as coming from AFT5 itself rather than anonymous users, causing all sorts of confusion (sigh). I'm given to understand that there will be a fix deployed today (that is, Monday the 27th) in the early PST hours - along with a "disable AFT5" feature that'll appear on Special:Protect, which I'm very happy with!
And I don't get paid for random weekend work, but I do it anyway - although I'd note it's 7am on a Monday morning to me, so technically this doesn't count ;p. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 05:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I keep forgetting you're in Britain. I tend to associate WMF and all of its members with California. Is there a satellite in the UK or do you work from home? Ryan Vesey 06:02, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I've got a nice little 3-bedroom in Cardiff with my cook and have converted one into an office...of sorts. It's where I work, but most of the furniture is bookcases ;p. Thinking about it all our liaisons are remote workers, which I think is A Good Thing; I do enjoy being in SF, but there's an element of groupthink that makes me feel like there are some upsides to being remote :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 06:05, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Good point; although, there will probably be some element of group think as long as there isn't complete anonymity. Although, the lack of it probably makes for a more congenial working environment. Still, having worked for long enough in my life, I know the things people are willing to say to someone's face anonymously or pseudo-anonymously are still said behind someone's back in real life. Is WMF a full time job or do you have something else on the side... or is WMF the side? Ryan Vesey 06:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Sounds like somebody is looking for a job? Boy, to be a minion of Oliver's... short hours, easy work, hard playing. Ah the easy life. I'm a telecommuter, it is hard to work without social interaction of people. Also, you tend to work more hours as the computer is available 24/7. The boss always thinks you aren't doing enough and are playing around. I think the only requirement to be a minion of Oliver's is: ti'n siarad Cymraeg?. Bgwhite (talk) 07:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
sydd ddim yn siarad Cymraeg? I'm not looking for a job, but it's interesting that you're the 2nd person to make a similar comment within the past week or two. See [3] Ryan Vesey 07:10, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
"to speak welsh", in Welsh :P. Glyn here mocks my proud-yet-oppressed adopted people like the English scum he is. And, totally agreed; cabin fever is an ever-present issue, as is never really getting off work. I've taken one week of holiday since I started working here and it turned into "sitting on my laptop answering emails, only everyone was speaking Dutch". Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 07:28, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
On the original point before Bgwhite started indulging his internal racist (boo!) - this job is a full-time job. In theory. In practise, it's more like 60 hours a week. Every time I go to the office my keycard is set on the "contractor" setting, which basically means it'll only open doors between 9am and 5pm. It constantly baffles me; I've never met anyone at the Foundation who works those hours. 10am to 8pm is more like it. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 07:30, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure you spent just as much time on wiki prior to the position. Ryan Vesey 07:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Hah! Indeed, I called it "avoiding my lectures". I'm often saddened by how little time I get to edit these days - bleh. I try to do my bit, I end up doing a lot of page patrolling, but it feels like an age since I've sat down and gone "right, I'm going to write a 50kb GA", which was standard operating procedure beforehand. I have to admit I'm looking forward to leaving next year, if only for that. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 07:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


Vitruvian Barnstar Hires.png The da Vinci Barnstar
For your hard work in making the Encyclopaedia a clearer place. PhnomPencil talk contribs 01:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

The toolbar just popped up for me and I'm loving it so far. Job well done. PhnomPencil talk contribs 01:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks so much! Full props go to User:Jorm (WMF), User:Fabrice Florin (WMF) and User:Kaldari - I just tidied around the edges :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 06:57, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit summary for NPP

Hey Oliver. I was looking through Wikipedia:Editor engagement/Team and yours was the name I knew, so here I am. Just wondering if you could take a quick look at User talk:SarahStierch#Edit summary (it's a very small discussion) and pass on the concern about the edit summaries for the new NPP tool to the relevant developer(s)? Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 08:05, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Message Banner

Hi Oliver! Is there a way to disable the orange message banner? Thanks, Electric Catfish 21:30, 31 August 2012 (UTC).

Not to my knowledge, I'm afraid :(. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:54, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:All unreviewed new articles to have Page Curation

Articles created via the Article Wizard appear in category:Articles created via the Article Wizard and in category:All unreviewed new articles, which is where I find them and go off to review them. This is entirely separate from NPP, usually small volume, but I am suggesting that it should have the same tools as Wikipedia:New pages patrol, specifically Page Curation. I posted this on the MediaWiki project discussion page back on August 4. Please consider it. --DThomsen8 (talk) 14:25, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

They should appear in Page Curation :). For an article from AfC or the article wizard to be an article, it has to be moved into the article namespace - an action which resets the clock. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:26, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Let me figure out how to turn on Page Curation for myself, and see whether new articles in the categories have Page Curation as a tool. I use Twinkle now. --DThomsen8 (talk) 14:31, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
If you go to Special:NewPagesFeed, it should set a cookie that tells mediawiki "display the toolbar on things in this!" Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:37, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Will that display appear for existing articles in category:All unreviewed new articles, or only new articles after I set the cookie?--DThomsen8 (talk) 14:51, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Only new ones, I'm afraid :(. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:52, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


Hi Oliver,

My vague memory of having Memento described to me is that it would allow date preferences to carry through to linked pages (where supported) - you'd read the article on United States, as of 1/1/08, which would say that George W. Bush was president, and then click through to that article, where it would retain the date and give you a version as of 1/1/08, etc.

If so, it'd be good to outline this at the RFC - it's an immediately understandable use case, and one that plenty of people would find quite easy to see the point of. The two examples given at the moment are fairly uncompelling - they're both single-page situations, where Memento as a history tool adds no significant value over the traditional method. Andrew Gray (talk) 14:54, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

That's pretty neat :). I'm not deep enough the technical perspective to directly say "yes! it does that!", but the developers are following the conversation. I would suggest posing it as a question in the discussion section :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:55, 4 September 2012 (UTC)


For a change like this might I suggest doing one of those banner messages like the Glam folks are always doing to peddle their ideas? Kumioko (talk) 20:57, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

The watchlist notices or the big centralnotice banners? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 20:57, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Either one. Kumioko (talk) 21:09, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I think a watchlist notice would be really good - slightly closer to the time so we can split the discussion into "people seeing these notices" and "everyone else", admittedly :). I worry that bringing everyone in at once will render the page unmanageable and make it hard to talk to everyone. Thanks for the suggestion! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:12, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit window suggestion

I had a suggestion for the edit window that I thougth about some time ago but never brought up. Would it be possible to create an edit window or something similar that would show the contents of the main page (as it does) and show the talk page below it? For myself and I believe others it would be greatly beneficial to be able to look at/modify them both from one central point rather than have to edit one and then the other. Maybe have something like a show Talk that expands (similar to the one for categories on the new example) or show Main if on a talk page. That way, the page doesn't have to take as much of a performance hit if you don't want to see them both. I would also say that the function should be opt in as maybe a gadget. Anyway just something I thought I would mention as a potential future improvement that would make things better. Kumioko (talk) 21:17, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

That's a really interesting idea :). I'll list it on the "micro-design improvements" page on mediawiki, and reply on your enwiki talkpage so you don't have to go off over there if you don't want to when I've had a chance to speak to the rest of the team. I imagine we'll probably have a chat this coming Monday, or the Monday after. Things are a bit fluid at the moment and the staff have an "all-staff" meetup coming up soon, so the availability of the team (me excluded) is a bit uncertain at the moment. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:20, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Great idea indeed. I think a horizontal splitscreen would be useful, e.g. for merging content. De728631 (talk) 21:27, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
That would be sweet :). Not sure how it'd work in practise - and when it comes to tweaking the actual edit window as opposed to thinks around it we're sorta martyrs to the visual editor team (who are, I know, doing...something...with split-screening). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Re: Upcoming changes to the edit window

Hi Okeyes. Thanks a lot for your efforts to improve the layout of the edit window. While I agree with most changes I would however hate to lose the "edit tools" toolbar at the bottom (MediaWiki:Edittools). I find it way more handy to use than the drop-down panels above the window for the following reasons:

  • First of all, the drop-down toolbar does just that, it drops down – and pushes large parts of the edit window out of the screen. This requires additional scrolling. And at the enhanced toolbox you can't display two menus at once, e.g. "Advanced" and "Special characters", while you can easily enable the Advanced bar on top of the edit window and pick special chars from the edit toolbar without clicking any menus back and forth.
  • You don't need to scroll the "old" toolbar to find a certain special character once you have selected a language.
  • The enhanced toolbar is still missing a lot of symbols from the old "Math and logic" charset. Not they are often used, but they shouldn't be abandoned. And, my main reason why I love the old toolbar is the Wiki markup panel. So unless I got your post at the Village pump totally wrong and you're not going to show at least the table from MediaWiki:Edittools as you did at the demo server, I think we should also get a markup panel in the enhanced toolbar on top of the edit window.

I hope my thoughts will be helpful to you and the team. Regards, De728631 (talk)

Those are all really good points :). Are you using vector/enhanced toolbar at the moment (in other words, would you be impacted by this change?) We may want to look into ways individual users can re-include it if they want - or, as a more long-term solution, we can mess with and try and fix up the enhanced editing toolbar to remove this problem. I'm not sure if there's a way to solve all problems for all people (just off the top of my head, every approach I think of has problems for some class of user) but that's no excuse for not trying. We'll think on it, and I'll drop you a note on your talkpage with any solutions we can come up with :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:27, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, you might call me a traditionalist but I'm still using MonoBook, but with the enhanced toolbar enabled, since don't like the vector layout at all. And thanks for considering my points. :) De728631 (talk) 21:32, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Naw, I use monobook too; I'm an awful advert for my org ;p. Actually you should still see the edit tools if you've got monobook+enhanced toolbar - but these are things we should take into account regardless. I'll talk to the team. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:41, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
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The Tea Leaf - Issue Six

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You are receiving The Tea Leaf after expressing interest or participating in the Teahouse! To remove yourself from receiving future newsletters, please remove your username here. EdwardsBot (talk) 00:10, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Page Triage Newsletter - wrong address

Please correct the address to send the newsletter from "Night of the Big Wind" to my new account name "The Banner". The Banner talk 18:25, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Same with Page Curation The Banner talk 18:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Agh *trouts self*. Thanks for letting me know :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 18:44, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
On that same note, User:Jeffwang is indef blocked and has yet to appeal, so he can probably come off the list. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:42, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Indeed; I thought I'd updated it. Very odd :S. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 19:55, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

AFT5 user warnings

Hi Oliver, would you mind having a look at the warnings and notices (User:Callanecc/sandbox/AFT5) for me (any of Oliver's page stalkers are welcome as well). I planning for this to be a final draft before I ask for comments at WT:AFT5 so any help or advice you have would be appreciated. Thanks, 08:13, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Sure! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 10:21, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

How's this look? Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 13:46, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

main page redesign

fyi: User talk:Jorm (WMF)#main page redesign.

Br'er Rabbit (talk) 02:38, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit window changes

Hi Oliver,

I've just seen it pointed out that the "after" screenshot uses a proportional rather than fixed-width font. Is this a quirk of the test setup, or is it actually intended as a feature? It's not mentioned anywhere on the MW page or on the VP discussion until it's flagged up at the end, and it's quite a drastic usability change to make without warning... Andrew Gray (talk) 11:07, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

See Prefs→Editing→Advanced options: Edit area font style: (Browser default, Monospaced font, Sans-serif font, Serif font)
Such options promote chaos and edit wars because people see the wikitext differently. Those using monospace see vertically formatted templates, such as infoboxes, in a columnar form; those using non-monospaced, see that as a jumble and may ip the spaces out… until the monospaced people arrive back…
Too many options have a tendency to feed disputes and sow disharmony. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 11:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the notifications! Andrew, do you see this on the prototype version as well? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:29, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Vibha tells me there's no move to proportional fonts; it's just an anomaly of the mockup :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 17:46, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
And Rob (who handled the implementation) tells me the same. False alarm, folks! Sorry for the confusion :). I promise we'll get better at this - small design changes that make the community part of the conversation is a relatively new thing to be doing regularly. We're ironing out the kinks. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 18:08, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Great - I suspected this was the case once reminded about preferences, but I was a little worried you'd reset the default! Andrew Gray (talk) 18:20, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Technical changes - more on that edit window stuff

I apologise if this is still unwanted, but I feel I must persist because I am a crazy stubborn wikipedian and that is apparently what crazy stubborn wikipedians do. And I'd also just like to understand this, at very least.

With taking that all at once for some approach with the edit page, perhaps the issue is just that it's largely not a technical problem? It has gotten pretty messy already, and is likely to only get more so, but such an approach would work quite well for a more technical problem, such as if you were overhauling WikiEditor. With that the thing itself is much more monolithic and changes can be made directly without doing anything terribly odd, and as a result it also lends itself well to testing (and probably needs it more anyway on account of solutions being less clear)...

Does that even make sense? -— Isarra 19:08, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid not; I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 19:11, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Why you went with this approach at all, trying to only hit a small group with the biggest changes. Since that kind of thing makes a lot more sense in development, is it possible that that is why it is being done this way, because most of the stuff your lot have worked with in the past has been feature development? -— Isarra 19:48, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Possibly. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 19:49, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Page Curation newsletter foible

You might want to stop the run. The edit is not at the right "subsection" level I think... Hasteur (talk) 11:12, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Almost gave me a heart attack there! No, it's a level 2 header; the guy above me on your talkpage just added a level 1 ;). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 11:17, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Nope... It's the 2 threads above... Sorry about the panic attack... Hasteur (talk) 11:18, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Office Hours

...And when might those be? Theopolisme 11:28, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

...I didn't hit "save" on the office hours page before posting the message, did I. *headdesk*. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 11:36, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Okay, now added! Thanks for the course correction :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 11:39, 24 September 2012 (UTC)


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Hello, Okeyes (WMF). You have new messages at JetBlast's talk page.
Message added 12:47, 24 September 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

JetBlast (talk) 12:47, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Page curation

Thanks for message. I'd actually already spotted it at special pages, and use it occasionally, but in practice I tend to access new pages mainly through the filters or CSD to pick up problem articles Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:15, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Page curation

Cool tool, thanks! Porterjoh (talk) 13:32, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:36, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Yet another page curation question

Hey, Oliver, I saw your note on my talk page. I saw it mentioned in some other people's messages, but couldn't find it in the documentation: how does logging work? Does it mesh with the Twinkle logs that we already have? Thanks! Writ Keeper 13:20, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Afraid not, but it has a few nice advantages. So, it appears under Special:Logs (find "deletion tag log", I think it's called) and has a couple of nice advantages over twinkle; not only is it centralised, it's also kinda hard to fool. Twinkle tag logging only works if someone has enabled it and doesn't muck with the log themselves - this one is universal. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:22, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Ah, when you said a log, you really meant a log, not a semi-automatic userspace list thingy. :) Thanks! Writ Keeper 13:26, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
There's no support for the subcategories of A7 (db-bio, db-band, db-club, etc.)? I'm a sad panda. Writ Keeper 13:31, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
No problem! That a good or a bad thing? ;p. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:31, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
The log? Definitely good. The subcats? Not so much. Forcing people to choose a subcategory of A7 will provide a natural way for them to realize that A7 doesn't cover all subjects, only certain specific ones. (Upon reflection, I withdraw the sad panda comment; too soon. :( ) Writ Keeper 13:38, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, it's less-than-ideal; the sort of thing we should look into for our next runthrough, me thinks :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:40, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
On a more positive note, though: I really like the new user notification templates, though; I always felt bad about the ones that Twinkle used, considering that a deleted new page is the one thing above all others that we should AGF and not bite the newbies for. Thanks for that, definitely! Writ Keeper 14:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Page Curation note

I noticed that a short time ago. It's a nice tool but I actually prefer the old, familiar was of doing it. I guess if the old method is eliminated I'll end up moving to the new tool. - Balph Eubank 14:41, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I came here to leave you a note that said pretty much what this user has said. With the addition that I'm a little bit more of a formal type of person and I found that the curation module was a little bit too informal for my preference. But it is an excellent tool, and I expect that a lot of other new page patrollers will get a great benefit from using it. Ubelowme U Me 15:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Thanks :). 17:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Re: Page Curation Newsletter (User:Titodutta)

Yes, I know about it and have been using it. I was trying to understand if there is any way to understand which is autopatrolled and which is manually patrolled (other than hovering the mouse on Tick icon)! Excellent tool! --Tito Dutta 14:57, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

We're thinking about having that as a filter option if/when we do more work on it :). Would that feature be useful? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 17:12, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Yes, thanks! I have just found in review notes to editors (like this don't add timestamp automatically. I did not know I have to add it manually (unlike Wikipedia Barnstars or AFD notices). I have made few mistakes. From next time I'll add ~~~~ in my notes. --Tito Dutta 17:35, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, we had real trouble getting that to work :S. I'll see what I can do there, too. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 17:38, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Page Curation

I looked at it, having found one of your notes on someone's talk page. Didn't particularly like it, especially because of the thing that appeared on the righthand side, obscuring part of the article text (something that really annoys me on sites where there are these stupid little ads that follow you up and down the page). Reminded me of one of those damned addthis popups you get on some sites with FB, Twitter and other rubbish on. I went back to CSD and found the thing had followed me, and was inviting me to go to the next item in the queue. I wasn't dealing with a queue. I was working randomly at CSD. Eventually, I clicked the X (not knowing what the other tiny button at the top did - no balloon message came up when I hovered over it). It went away, tail between legs. Hasn't been seen since. Is it supposed to follow you, or what? I used to work in New User edits rather than New Pages before I got the mop, but if this thing had appeared there, I might have quit. OK, I use Monobook and have XP Pro set to Classic. I like those - they're easier to navigate than the big bright buttons for kids stuff. This new thing looks like a greyscale version of something that really is in a bright colour (for the kids). Might be OK for vampires, but I enjoy garlic. Peridon (talk) 20:41, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

We're adding balloon messages (the devs thought they had - evidently the ball got dropped somewhere). Sorry you don't like the setup. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:58, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Re:Page Curation newsletter

Thanks for your message! That function looks very useful. I will study to use it. --Jack No1 (talk) 什么样的节奏是最呀最摇摆?什么样的歌声才是最开怀? 14:54, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Great! Glad to see you like it :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:57, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
But I need some time to read the document. English is not my mother language and I am fresh in English Wikipedia. However, this isn't big problem. --Jack No1 15:01, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
That's fine :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 15:02, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Are you a staff member of Wikimedia Fundation? --Jack No1 15:03, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

That's me, yes :). I run around telling people about our new software (ideally before it is built, so they can help provide feedback). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 15:06, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Oh! That's cool! That means your job is to track the software of WMF and collect feedback from users? So how to send you feedback?
PS: Are you from France? I think Oliver is a French name.--Jack No1 15:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
The most effective way is just to leave me a talkpage note; you can also email me at And I'm British :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 15:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Thank you! But I have some other things to do now. See you later! :) --Jack No1 15:14, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Odd article feedback may show problem

Look at the feedback for Ars Nova (theater). Both of them are completely unrelated, and the IP's are from across the country. One of the IP's has a history of vandalism, so the nature of the feedback can be expected; however, the page was just created today. I checked the redirects and there isn't a random article redirecting to it. I don't know if it is an AFT5 error, a Wikipedia error, or just coincidental, but it just seems unusual and I can't get to the bottom of it. Ryan Vesey 03:15, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

That it got two pieces of feedback immediately? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 03:20, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
That it got two pieces of feedback that aren't related to the topic. It just seems like an unusual article to get that feedback. It makes me assume something is linking editors to that page or that the feedback is being associated with the wrong page. Ryan Vesey 03:32, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Blanket use of diacritics in article titles

I wonder if WMF is aware of the relentless push—by a small bunch of editors and admins—towards the blanket use of diacritics in article titles as described here and here (article titles with diacritics bolded). The war started with European languages, and now is moving to Vietnamese. The situation seems a bit like Orwell's Animal Farm. LittleBen (talk) 01:19, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, I certainly wasn't until now :). I'm afraid that the WMF does not characteristically get involved in internal content discussions, both for legal reasons (us not being sued every time someone posts something defamatory is predicated on us acting as publishers of the content, not selectors of it) and for ethical ones (we evolved as a bottom-up org - the community existed before the WMF - and us taking control over or playing a role in content discussions would be a slight overreach of our jurisdiction and role ;p). I would recommend using the internal dispute resolution mechanisms within the community :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 01:22, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
  • You can see how some of the people follow others around and try to intimidate them here, and you can read Jimbo's opinion (which has been quoted to them) here. LittleBen (talk) 01:28, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
FWIW, as a professional lexicographer, search algorithms in electronic bilingual dictionaries I work on are configured to recognise Roman alphabet words whether the diacritics are used or not. Having followed (but non participated) numerous Wikipedia discussions on the subject, it seems that some editors insist that page names should include diacritics as used in the local language, while others insist that they should not and that both camps are prepared to resort to edit warring and bullying tactics to press their points. I found the issues were further confounded by users who in these arguments also attempted to discuss non Roman scripts such as for example Thai, Hebrew, Arabic, Devanagari, etc., and logographic/logosyllabic writing systems.
My own personal opinion leans towards a compromise that all Wikipedia page names should be Romanised as closely as possible to any official or commonly accepted transliteration; page names in Roman script could be with or without diacritics and the use of dab and/or redirects should be made as appropriate, including non Roman scripts if they are likely to be used as search terms. On the Roman alphabet Wikipedias, the use of Roman script , even Vietnamese, enables a reader or editor to remember a word whether the user's own pronunciation of it is accurate or not, whereas it is impossible to consign Thai, Japanese, or Arabic to memory for those who have no notion of such languages. This is most often highlighted by the refusal of some users to use Roman script in their signatures, or only using non-language keyboard symbols available in most UTF-8 Unicode fonts. It's fair to assume that most of us on en.Wiki (and other Roman script Wikis) use one of the standard Roman alphabet keyboards. It's not fair to force users to copy and paste words or to use a drop down font menu for insertion.
What the Britannica does, or what Mr Wales recommends may not be representative of any community consensus or what our readers want, and perhaps in the absence of consensus, our WMF-Community coordinators could (exceptionally) help resolve the issues. Just my 2 pence. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:20, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
  • I agree. But despite the fact that there have been several RfCs, but never any consensus on use of non-ASCII characters or diacritics (other than Wikipedia's "keep Wikipedia diacritic neutral, and use English" guidelines, which have not changed) one user has unilaterally changed all of the European articles to use diacritics in titles extensively (or perhaps "exclusively" would be a better word), regardless of Wikipedia policies, and he has now moved his crusade to Vietnamese. After he finishes Vietnamese, he will surely want to start on changing English Wikipedia to use Chinese, Japanese, or even Thai article titles. It's a great feeling to control the whole of Wikipedia ;-) An Admin. started an ANI here, but another Admin promptly closed it. Another previous ANI is here. The level of nastiness and stupidity far exceeds anything else that I have seen anywhere on Wikipedia, and nobody seems to have the courage to try to stop it. It only takes a few drops of poison in the well to send off a lot of good people. LittleBen (talk) 04:03, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
  • The issues surely appear to be very simple: one side says that blanket use of complex diacritics—that the majority of Wikipedia users cannot read, write, or remember—in article titles does not benefit the majority of Wikipedia users or editors: both forms, with and without diacritics, can be used in the lede. The other side seems to be saying that, "We know best. Wikipedia users should be "forcibly educated" by blanket use of diacritics in article titles, regardless of common usage, and we have a larger mob of people who support this viewpoint." LittleBen (talk) 06:18, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Re: "perhaps in the absence of consensus, our WMF-Community coordinators could (exceptionally) help resolve the issues". As you can see from this link (above), I have already tried that. This could surely be a question asked in user feedback: "do you prefer diacritics in article titles?" LittleBen (talk) 06:29, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Okeyes (WMF). Hello there. This "one user has unilaterally changed all of the European articles to use diacritics in titles extensively" is evidently myself. FYI I have addressed this on User:LittleBenW's talk page, and also made a suggestion which I hope he will take up. Best regards. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:50, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not totally sure what diacritic usage has to do with User:Okeyes (WMF) qua his role as a Foundation employee. It's not up to Oliver or Maryana or any other Wikimedia Foundation employees to help English Wikipedia get their collective shit together regarding diacritic usage. I cannot promise to read the minds of Foundation employees, but if they are even the slightest bit observant of the Wikipedia community (which given they are also community members, I'd like to think they are), I'd suggest that they are both aware of and slightly embarrassed by the parade of pointless squabbling and would rather like the community to actually seriously try to find some reasoned, stable consensus and stop making overwrought comparisons between advocates of either diacritic usage or diacritic avoidance and characters from a novel that satirises Stalinism. It just makes the vast majority of people who don't care enough about the issue look at the warring factions like the aforementioned squabbling children. Oh wait, that might just be me. —Tom Morris (talk) 11:30, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

👍 Like.Beeblebrox (talk) 19:46, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
  • There is a discussion of diacritics here. The key criteria for words and names used in article titles are surely recognizability, accessibility, and usability. With JavaScript-based web analytics software it is easy to measure the effect of changes such as adding diacritics to page titles—it is easy to measure important metrics such as the percentage of people who bounce (give up on the page virtually immediately), easy to measure engagement (time on page/time on site) and retention (does the user come back to the same page?) With web analytics, numbers would quickly show that the majority of users react unfavorably to editors adding diacritics to article titles. Wikipedia is surely unique among major web sites in apparently not having web analytics that make it easy to get such metrics. No other website of Wikipedia's size would make major user interface changes without A/B and multivariate testing using analytics—Google even enables switching between old and new versions of the user interface when Gmail or Google Groups interfaces are changed.
  • You have probably heard the story of Coca Cola's switch to a new formula. It had been tested—in blind taste tests the majority preferred the lower-sugar new Coke. But when Coca Cola announced that the original Coke was being phased out, customers were angry—the perception was that they were losing something good, rather than gaining something better. So when I hear talk about WP's Great Leap Forward (with a new interface) I am worried about whether people will be offered a choice. Most large web sites make changes gradually—take small steps, and use analytics to test the effect—rather than taking big leaps like Coca Cola did. My perception—right or wrong—is that there is a real need for better two-way communication among WP tech. people, and between them and the WP community.
  • Getting back to the diacritics wars, you can see an admission that In ictu oculi's tennis player article title moves to diacritics go against accepted practice here, as well as what appears to be bragging about eliminating yet another editor from tampering with diacritics. This sort of nastiness and fanaticism is not good for Wikipedia, and not good for retention of capable editors. Surely article titles should be decided by Wikipedia policies, facts, and logic, rather than by the number of people—armed with tennis rackets or hockey sticks—one can bring to an RM. :-( LittleBen (talk) 04:19, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
    Ben, the Wikimedia Foundation does not get involved in content policies. I'm not going to jump in or express an opinion. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 07:29, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
  • The key points that I was making were (1) the need for web analytics, so the effect of changes such as diacritics in article titles—and user interface changes—are made measurable and are measured, and (2) the desirability of better transparency and better communications from the tech. side of Wikipedia: has nobody heard of analytics and metrics? Pageview stats, created on a volunteer basis, really don't make the cut. LittleBen (talk) 08:14, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
  • No, we do engage in A/B testing for major interface changes - quite frankly, the use of diacritics does not qualify as a major interface change. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 08:28, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Of the top 500 sites on the web, Wikipedia is surely the only one that doesn't use Javascript-based web analytics such as Google Analytics, Omniture or the like. Even permission to use analytics on a single page of Wikipedia would make it easy to quickly get neutral-POV numbers and quickly settle whether diacritics in article titles drive the majority of users away—years of fighting over this has certainly driven many dedicated editors away. LittleBen (talk) 09:15, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Seriously Ben, there is a right way and a wrong way to approach this. When you brought this to the admin noticeboard I explained to you what the right way was. Instead of doing anything resembling that you are trying to drag WMF staffers into it. Gues what? It is not just that they don't want to do that, it is my understanding that they are actually not allowed to, at least not while on the clock and not from any account that represents their official role as staffers. So, again, you are barking up the wrong tree. Pursue proper dispute resolution or drop it. This tactic of haranguing the staff over it clearly is not getting you want you want any more than your insistence that admins unilaterally issue a moratorium on diacritic page moves did. Your insistence on doing it the wrong way is not only not effective, it is becoming disruptive. Beeblebrox (talk) 09:05, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
  • I think the right way is for WMF to learn a little about web analytics, and to provide analytics data so that editors know what the majority of users really like, and what they really hate. LittleBen (talk) 09:18, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Ben, we know a heck of a lot about web analytics - and we're building our own analytics suite. No, we don't use things like Google Analytics, and there's a very good reason for that: we have a stringent privacy policy (more stringent than most of the "top 500 sites on the web") that makes it problematic. If people have been fighting over the use of diacritics for years, in a way that is bitter enough for people to leave over it, the problem is not with our analytics software. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 09:20, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
  • There is already free and open source web analytics software—such as Open Web Analytics (works with Media Wiki) and Piwik—that allows acquired data to be kept completely under Wikipedia control. Aggregate data from such software makes it very easy to settle issues such as "Which name is more frequently used in searches that end up at Wikipedia: Burma or Mynmar", or "Does adding diacritics to article titles drive people away?" The latter issue affects hundreds or even thousands of articles. It's surely much nicer to settle issues quickly with facts that WMF could easily provide than to have ongoing warring based purely on the opinions of individuals. LittleBen (talk) 09:34, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Ben, you need to quit trying to make this problem something other than what it really is. This is an epic content dispute. Admins can't resolve it, and neither can the Foundation. The community needs to do it. As I explained previously once there is a consensus admins will of course help to ensure it is being respected. If you feel the problem is more a behavioral one ArbCom may be able to help you but they also do not do content disputes. There is also a thread currently on my talk page at User_talk:Beeblebrox#AN where I detailed several different possible ways forward. (I made kind of a long, rambling post, look for the bulleted list in the middle of it. ) Beeblebrox (talk)
Just to follow up on some of the comments above, hopefully as a third party - Ben, WMF has a fairly long-stsnding policy of not intervening in content disputes (and the use or avoidance of diacritics certainly is a content issue) unless absolutely necessary for legal or emergency reasons, which I think we can all agree is thankfully not the case here!
The issue of what reader data can and will be collected by WMF is not simply technical - it is controlled by the privacy policy (see links at the bottom of the page), created by the Board with community support, which recommends collecting as little data as is necessary to serve the site. On the occasions this has been discussed in the past, the community has (I believe) shown fairly strong support for these principles. You could probably make a case for collecting things like dwell time on a researched subset of pages - talk to the research community on meta, perhaps? - but it would require extensive discussion and analysis beforehand. It is not something that WMF staff are able to turn on on request - they simply don't have the authority. Repeatedly asking staffers for it won't change this. Andrew Gray (talk) 10:05, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
  • I see diacritics as a usability issue rather than a content issue, because it's not about the words themselves, it's about the way they are presented. Language templates like Template:Lang are a similar usability issue: although such templates are supposed to be used when embedding foreign languages in Wikipedia, most editors are totally unaware of their existence and rationale.
  • As for collecting as little data as is necessary to serve the site, I'm glad that Wikipedia is moving in the opposite direction by starting "Rate this page" at the bottom of articles. Analytics are just another form of anonymous user feedback to Wikipedia. Random anonymous opt-in questionnaires (apparently not yet tried) are yet another way of getting anonymous feedback from real users. I think that many real users are glad to provide such opt-in anonymous feedback, and are glad that Wikipedia feels that their opinion is important. ;-) LittleBen (talk) 15:20, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
  • There is a big difference, in terms of the privacy policy, between opt-in feedback - information the explicitly and voluntarily hands over - and automated analytics, which simply record reader behaviour. The community greatly values the privacy policy, and our readers seem to as well. I think you could make a case for selective testing of reader behaviour, but you're going to have to make it in the right way to the right people, and treat it as a research study and not a way of resolving a content dispute, or indeed a "war". Andrew Gray (talk) 15:44, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Suggestion posted here. Book publishers would surely not consider book titles to be a "content dispute". Titles for films are a similar issue: "do some market research, or it may be very costly". LittleBen (talk) 04:50, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

  • Related question: Template:Lang title is supposed to be used when an Article title is in a language other than English—but surely it is not being used on English Wikipedia because (1) Editors are not aware of it, and (2) the template documentation does not state clearly where in the article it is supposed to go. Please correct me if if am wrong, but my understanding is that you are supposed to be the person to ask about such technical issues (MediaWiki people are not paid by Wikipedia users, and don't seem to be interested in answering their questions ;-). Like Template:Lang and related templates which are for embedding languages other than English in the body of an article, these templates are for accessibility—for screen readers and search engines etc.—as described in articles linked from the Template:Lang documentation. LittleBen (talk) 14:42, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

User taking offence of message placed in User:talk page by the page curation tool

I was experimenting with the new tool, which is certainly an improvement, an user whose article I tagged because it was a stub and needed more cites took it personally (see my talk page). It would be a good idea to state more emphatically that the purpose of tagging is that other editors can search for articles that require attention rather than a critique of their work. Alanl (talk) 13:05, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

...and acknowledge that the user may still be editing the page (and the person using the tool has no way of knowing that) and that a stub tag is almost always standard on a new article and the user should not infer negatively on that. Alanl (talk) 13:22, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) I can not see any fault there! And you have explained well too! --Tito Dutta 13:30, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
None the less, the message left in the User's talk page should be amended to avoid this misunderstanding in the future. We can't afford to lose contributors over something like this.
Good point! --Tito Dutta 13:40, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
I don't see any problem with the tool. The Drover's Wife was acting ridiculous. Ryan Vesey 13:57, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
The tool is fine, it's the message that may be patronising to a new contributor who is still editing the article when an article gets tagged. Alanl (talk) 14:20, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
The messages are actually editable: see Category:New Pages Feed templates. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:49, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Okeyes, I've been following this. This particular one cannot be edited--it's just the {{one source}} template, and it isn't subst'd. it would be easy enough to change it to subst, of course, but I'm not sure what the advantage would be--I cannot see what one might want to say differently. (It can of course be changed by writing a custom message instead and deleting the template). People doing page duration by and large are not customizing their messages, and we need to think how to encourage them to do so.
And in this particular case, the message was perfectly appropriate, and should not have been taken offense at--there are some much more problematic messages in this regard--but those too it is simplest just to take asa matter of course. I would not have bothered leaving it--it was a minor problem, as the source is reliable, and shows unquestionable notability for the MP--but Alanl was perfectly justified. However, this servers as a helpful reminder to be to start editing those messages as I said I would. DGG ( talk ) 02:07, 27 September 2012 (UTC)


..."Article Feedback page not enabled for this page." - I'm getting this message so is there any change I need to make in My preferences or is there a bug or is it disabled? Cheers! TheSpecialUser TSU 16:21, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Hmn; have you disabled the article feedback tool from your preferences? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:24, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
FYI there is a thread related to this at WP:AN under the heading "undeleteble page". Beeblebrox (talk) 17:55, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Thanks :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 17:56, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit Window Changed

So it seems like the edit window change just went into effect. The toolbar was removed from the bottom against my protests. What can I add to my css or javascript page to get it back? Ryan Vesey 23:44, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

At the moment, nothing because of the way it was implemented: we're discussing a way to restore right now, and it'll hopefully be deployed pretty soon (read: this evening, or soon after.) Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:45, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. Ryan Vesey 23:46, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I stand corrected; we'll work on it soon, but right now we can't do anything. HR issues, basically - it's the end of the day and people are burnt out. Asking them to make a pile of changes would end badly. I'm sorry for the delay :(. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:54, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
I have no intentions of using it today so there's no problem. I'm just curious, what was changed to put the new changes in place? I checked for changes here and am not seeing the change. Do you think someone at VPT might be able to jerryrig something to import MediaWiki:EdittoolsRyan Vesey 00:01, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
It's a change to the Vector extension, and probably not - it directly overrides the css files on enwiki. I'm looking into it right now, and hopefully should have an answer tomorrow (which is one of the developers' days assigned to us :)). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:04, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Okay, well thanks for the work, good luck finding a solution. Ryan Vesey 00:14, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Found one! (see, this is the problem with chatting as situations are developing). We are making the change now and will re-enable hopefully this evening. It might look a bit weird, warning in advance. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:16, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

RfC on changing Wikipedia licensing

Someone (not me) has started an RfC at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Request board#RFC on Current Wikipedia Licensing. I couldn't find a way to contact the WMF, so since you're a WMF employee, you get this message. David1217 What I've done 00:54, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks; I'll let Legal know, but it looks like it's getting killed. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:58, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I didn't think it would pass... David1217 What I've done 03:11, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Question about usage of Template:Lang title

Hi, Oliver, the question is here. LittleBen (talk) 05:37, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

You're asking me why volunteers aren't using a template? Or why the documentation for it isn't very good? ;p. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 19:33, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
  • (2) above says "the template documentation does not state clearly where in the article it is supposed to go". So the implied questions are: Is it supposed to be the first item in an article? Is there some way of finding out if it is used at all in English Wikipedia (i.e. does it set a category, as—I believe—Template:Lang does?) I'm also curious if the same template is used in all the foreign-language Wikipedias (the documentation suggests so). Regards. LittleBen (talk) 03:31, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
And the answer is "I don't know", I'm afraid. The vast majority of templates are not WMF-created, they're community created. Lang-title is no exception to this rule; if TheDJ expected people to follow a certain convention when using it, that's something he'd know, not us - unless I'm missing something here :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 04:01, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Surely the most basic templates like Template:Lang and Template:Lang_title (that are required to insert the proper language-related semantic markup) come with MediaWiki, which I presume is funded by WMF? Or if they are really community created, who is responsible? Accessibility is a legal requirement in several countries, I find it difficult to believe that nobody is responsible. LittleBen (talk) 06:48, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Have you looked at the template history? Both of those examples were created by the community. And accessibility may be a legal requirement in several countries, but the WMF operates only in the United States, and to the best of my knowledge (General Counsel is more the person to talk to on this front) meets the accessibility requirements set by that nation's law. And MediaWiki is funded by the WMF, yes, but a default MediaWiki install is just that - default :). It contains almost no templates, if any. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 17:18, 28 September 2012 (UTC)