User talk:PamD/Archive 1

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A google search of Wikipedia using "Nottingham University" and "rambling" got me here. If you're going to be editing in these parts, you should probably put a few (or many) (your choice!) words on your User: page, so that it doesn't appear as a red link when you edit something, and so that people who have something to say about your edits will have some idea of who they're dealing with. --GuillaumeTell 01:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion - I hadn't twigged the "red link" point. Have now added a few words to create my User: page. --User:PamD 21:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The University of Nottingham Hillwalking and Rambling Society

The random link led me there - I often look around when I'm otherwise not busy, cleaning up, tagging articles and general housekeeping. The subject of notability is often contentious - In this case, there is nothing in the article that establishes what makes the subject worthy of inclusion. The bar for notability is not particularly high - A few mentions in even local press is often adequate. The first pillar of Wikipedia is a good place. And welcome :) - Tiswas(t/c) 22:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Robin Hood, West Yorkshire

Thanks for setting up the page. 29 May 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 12:00, 29 May 2007

Walking Stewart

Thanks for your kind message and for going to the trouble of creating the page in the first place! He's so interesting, I couldn't help adding what I know ... Thanks so much again! --Charleys2004 18:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Rothwell, West Yorkshire

I'm happy to leave the page as it is, but could you please explain why my edit wasn't constructive. I'm not disputing this, but just for future edits, so I know not to go wrong. Thanks Pam. 08:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

PamD's reply: I can't see my comment on your user page at address you're using today (if you're going to edit regularly it's easier all round if you register, rather than use an IP address). Were you perhaps the editor who changed Rothwell from "town" to "district", removed three paragraphs (Domesday book, market, band), and reverted to older less linked text about Priestley and the college, as on 9 June at 19:44? Whether Rothwell is a town or not seems to be a matter on which there are different views, but it didn't seem helpful to remove all that other information - perhaps it was an editing accident? PamD 23:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's me. The removal of three paragraphs was accidental, and I didn't realise I'd done it until you let me know on your above edit, and so I checked the Rothwell history page. I do apologise. However, I think you are right about the difference of views as to wether Rothwell is a town or a district. I was to belive that over time, Rothwell had become a district of the main city, rather than a town in the metropolitan borough, but if this is not the case, then I do apologise, and feel free to leave the article with it being stated a town. Thanks again. 18:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Titus Salt reference

Hi Pam. Thank you for adding a reference to the bottom of the Titus Salt article, but could you please use the current WP:CITE format with ref tags? If it isn't actually being used to cite any of the article text then we are better putting this into a "Further reading" section. Burntsauce 18:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

PamD's reply:I didn't write the main article, so don't know whether the DNB article is source for much of it or not - though it certainly supports the ">100,000 people lining streets at funeral". I've put the ref into format, I think. Not sure how many specific references are needed from the body of the article, if any. PamD 18:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Striking your vote

Hello PamD,

Thank you for your interest in the Wikimedia Board Election. The Election Committee regretfully informs you that your previous vote was received in error and will be struck according to the election rules, described below.

The Election Committee regretfully announces today that we will have to remove approximately 220 votes submitted. These votes were cast by people not entitled to vote. The election rules state that users must have at least 400 edits by June 1 to be eligible to vote.

The voter lists we sent to Software in the Public Interest (our third party election partner) initially were wrong, and one of your account was eventually included to our initial list. There was a bug in the edit counting program and the sent list contained every account with 201 or more edits, instead of 400 or more edits. So large numbers of people were qualified according to the software who shouldn't be. The bug has been fixed and an amended list was sent to SPI already.

Our first (and wrong) list contains 80,458 accounts as qualified. The proper number of qualified voters in the SPI list is now 52,750. As of the morning of July 4 (UTC), there are 2,773 unique voters and 220 people, including you, have voted who are not qualified based upon this identified error.

In accordance with voting regulations the Election Committee will strike those approximately 220 votes due to lack of voting eligibility. The list of struck votes is available at

We are aware of the possibility that some of the people affected may have other accounts with more than 400 edits, and hence may still be eligible to vote. We encourage you to consider voting again from another account, if you have one. If you have no other account eligible to vote, we hope you reach the criteria in the next Election, and expect to see your participation to the future Elections.

Your comments, questions or messages to the Committee would be appreciated, you can make them at m:Talk:Board elections/2007/en. Other language versions are available at m:Translation requests/Eleccom mail, 07-05.

Again, we would like to deeply apologize for any inconvenience.

Kizu Naoko
Jon Harald Søby
Tim Starling

For Wikimedia Board Election Steering Committee —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tim Starling (talkcontribs) 13:01, 6 July 2007

Leeds Parish Church

No problem. It's always a good idea to press the Preview button and check the blue links that you've created/amended before saving, though. A, aka GuillaumeTell 20:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

1a page

Hi Pam—Thanks for your comments. Can't see where the formatting is large in the 1a article. Tony 11:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Pam, but looks fine to me. I'll ask someone else to look. Tony 15:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Pam—thanks for pointing out my blooper, and for the Guardian link, which I've posted here. I used to subscribe to the Guardian Weekly, but my Internet addiction has crowded that out! Tony 11:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Leeds Town Hall

There was a rather sprawling article about Town Hall which could not have been all copyright violation...I wrote a bit myself. As far as I remember, someone removed it and put in a more compact text which was apparently all borrowed.

I am glad you have written about the piano competition, by the way. --Alan 19:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The version of the article I deleted was marked and verified as a nearly word-for-word copy of . So it was deleted. --wL<speak·check> 00:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I am no great expert on editorial issues, but I think it would have been better to go back to a previous version of the article, which would have included good material, rather than simply delete the offending version. --Alan 06:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The correct action would have been to restore the version before the copyvio and delete all revisions after that, while examining the revisions to try and rescue good content. Total deletion was inappropriate. The deleting admin should have investigated further and discovered all this. Carcharoth 10:42, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. If you look at Talk:Leeds Town Hall#Timeline_of_Leeds_Town_Hall_article you can see the results of a bit of archaeological digging through the history! PamD 13:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Some good detective work there! Carcharoth 14:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

1a page

Thanks for your correction, Pam. It's the redundancy exercises that are the most fertile ground for error-hunters! Tony 12:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

New version of proposed text on spacing at MOSNUM

Pam—Please reconsider your comment, if necessary: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Spacing. Tony 15:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Re: Abbey Grange

Now that you've renamed it to what I believe is the best name, I decided to redirect. The reason for the confusion with the merge tags was that I didn't know which name was best. Englishrose 12:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Mount St Mary's

Hi Pam. I see you have been tidying schools info in Leeds, and you were asking user "yourewhom?" about the entry for Mount SS Mary & Micheal's (sic) Catholic College. I believe you are right to question the article title and, AFAICS, it is a poorly researched and misleading article. I suspect that the body is a cut-and-paste of some related website and is likely to be a wp:copyvio - altho I've not checked this out.

Here is some background:

In October 2003 it was agreed that St Michael’s Catholic College, a school of 500 pupils, would close and be 'acquired' by Mount St Mary’s High. Accordingly at the end of August 2005 St Michael’s closed and pupils and staff became part of Mount St Mary’s which will continue to operate on the split East/West sites until 2008 after which time it will operate on the East site only.

Mount St Mary's High School are utilising the old St Michael's site to accommodate the additional pupils during the transition period, following the closure of St Michael's in 2005.

HTH RichardEll 09:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

If the contents are wrong, then I appologise, I was informed at Mass held at the Cathedral last Sunday that the two Schools had become one, and the proposed name of the new school was this.

yourwhom 18.06, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Redirect of Cardinal Heenan Catholic High School (Leeds)

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Oldest sitting member

If you are interested in adding infoboxes for the oldest sitting member of the House of Commons, I have a list at User:Warofdreams/Data#Oldest sitting MP. Warofdreams talk 14:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

3-way marginals

Since 1945, the closest 3-way marginals have been... Shows the 3rd placed candidates share, and the gap between 3rd and 1st... I am pretty sure about the first 9, there may be other high shares below 30% which I have overlooked...

1 Caithness and Sutherland, 1945 33.1, 0.37
2 Lincoln, 1974(F) 31.99, 3.56
3 Huddersfield, West, 1964 31.54, 4.24
4 Stockton, South, 1987 31.26, 3.75
5 West Tyrone, 1997 30.86, 3.72
6 Caernarvon District of Burghs, 1945 30.6, 2.32
7 Colchester, 1997 30.54, 3.84
8 Dunbartonshire, East, 1974(O) 30.35, 0.86
9 Birmingham, Yardley, 1992 30.21, 4.65
... (maybe others below 30%)
10 Clwyd, Wrexham, 1983 29.71, 4.56
11 Belfast, East, 1979 29.55, 1.82
12 Strathclyde, Renfrew West and Inverclyde, 1983 29.04, 3.66
13 Coventry, South East, 1992 28.88, 3.70
14 Dyfed, Carmarthen, 1983 27.05, 4.53
Caithness and Sutherland will take some beating, only 61 votes between 1st and 3rd place, all three candidates on 33%, the last time a mainland party leader lost his seat (Sir Archibald Sinclair, Liberal leader came third) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RodCrosby (talkcontribs) 20:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I see RodCrosby has done a great job and beaten me to it! Warofdreams talk 17:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


Thanks. I've added a redirect from R D Chantrell (maybe there should be ones from R. D. Chantrell and Robert D Chantrell too). The reason that I used the Robert Dennis version was that that's how he appears in Wikipedia:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/Hotlist of Art & Architecture/C, thus turning the link blue.

I'm going to have a trawl through Pevsner for more buildings, but I can't be bothered to insert him into the pages for the various places where he built churches - especially as only one of their WP articles (so far) actually mentions the church. Be my guest if you want to do that. --GuillaumeTell 18:10, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

TLA, Three letter acronym and Talk:Three letter acronym

Done! At your convenience, could you do a "sanity check" on it for me please? (There is no hurry.)

(By-the-way: Initially I "moved" TLA (disambiguation) to TLA. I wasn't completely comfortable with that, so I "moved" it back, and now TLA redirects to TLA (disambiguation).)

Cheers, Pdfpdf 12:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Reply on Talk:Three letter acronym#TLA Pdfpdf 10:25, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Well yes, but ... What about the WP "infrastructure" being geared up for "TLA (disambiguation)"? A "move" won't handle that. i.e. "TLA" will not match searches for "TLA (disambiguation)", which is what caused me to make the change in the first place. Pdfpdf 12:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, well! It all seems to have happened! (The system works!!) Well done! Pdfpdf 13:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I have altered the wording on the various talk files, to discourage people from having current discussions on obsolete pages.
Good idea.
I hope you don't mind me changing your wording!
No, I don't mind.
Pdfpdf 12:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Sheffield Uni userbox

That's all sorted now, managed to change the size of the picture so the box is the same height as the others, thanks for letting me know about the problem. Simon KHFC 17:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

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re: User

Hi, I apologise if they are not, but BT IP addresses all day and yesterday have been advertising charity events by placing text on articles that may be irrelevant to that information. Most of the users' contributions have been vandalism or spam or advertising. Sorry if I was being too harsh. Thebestkiano 12:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Be advised

Your tfd nom caused this yelp! Next time, use subst so the link goes to the tfd page, and in such a template, put it in the title box by hook or crook! Best regards // FrankB 02:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

replied at User talk:Fabartus. PamD 12:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC) (Now copied below by FrankB)
Thanks for alerting me. Cryptic has sorted out the template, and I've responded thus at WP:VPT -
"Sorry about that. The instructions on Template:Tfd are quite clear but a useful sentence "This code will work as is; there is no need to replace PAGENAME with the actual page name." wasn't included in the instructions I was following on Wikipedia:Templates for deletion, and I needed that clarification! I've added it there now, to avoid anyone else making the same mistake. My thanks to Cryptic for sorting it out. PamD 07:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)"

Thanks, but the apology is unneeded. Think the thing you missed was the example showing:

{{tfd|{{subst:pagename}}}} call format. It used to be such templates squealed like stuck pigs in both preview and page saved modes if and when subst wasn't used, but perhaps that logic messed up something else and so someone removed it over the summer. I'll check on that.
This kind of thing is inevitable in a tech based shared resources project from time to time, so your apology is gracious. I don't know for a fact it was "evincing" badly on pages other than Leipzig... just that I had to hunt hard for what was under discussion, and if someone was unfamiliar with templates, they would have been lost the way it was located there. (Checks OK now!) Cheers! // FrankB 15:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Leeds Country Way

Well, your concerns over my decision are certainly valid. As for your version with sections, I do like it better personally. I don't see other glaring mistakes, so I'd suggest that you re-submit it to DYK. It's very backlogged, so my decision was probably hasty. So just re-submit it, upon doing that I'll tag it as second opinion requested, so that someone will look at it relatively quickly. Wizardman 18:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all the hard work on getting this one to GA status. It took some time but got there in the end. Keith D 09:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Your reversion on TLA

You reverted my edit on TLA claiming it had "removed useful content". Could you please explain why you feel redlinked articles on a disambiguation page is useful? Thank You. B1atv 05:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

As you have responded on my talk page I have responded there, to keep the conversation in one place. B1atv 07:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


As a fellow librarian, i would like to support articles on library related topics when possible, but i cannot yet see how to do so here. There is general agreement that state branches or affiliates of associations are not notable, The MLA is probably not technically a branch of the ALA--I never could figure out the structure of that particularly labyrinthine organisation, but in effect it can reasonably be treated as such unless there is some reason otherwise. So what does the MLA do on its own, besides its newsletter? Have there been discussions of it in general library periodicals? That's the sort of thing that's needed. DGG (talk) 10:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

there is no reason why an article cannot be re-created if material is found. But I'm a little skeptical it will be--I do not think the public activities of most US state library associations are notable in an encyclopedic way. But UK Librarianship is very weakly covered in WP, and on a national basis the organisation are undoubtedly notable.--why don't you try some of that. I also dont think we have articles on the UK library schools.DGG (talk) 18:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Multiple Sclerosis organizations

Hi - My edit was one of a series to revert spamming (see Special:Contributions/ If you think the links belong in the article, feel free to add them back :-) -SCEhardT 18:21, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

TLA et alia

Thanks for keeping a close eye on TLA et al; you are doing a sterling job, and doing it with much more patience, politeness, tolerance and skill than I could ever summon! Well done. Pdfpdf 05:50, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


Hey, great start on the article on Emmaville, New South Wales. Another one to take off the list! Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 21:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


Hello PamD. Just discussing your recent creation of a cat here: Wikipedia:New_Zealand_Wikipedians'_notice_board#Category:Hills_of_New_Zealand. You might comment if you like. Cheers. Ingolfson 20:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi PamD - what made you choose to revert your choice on One Tree Hill? Regards. Ingolfson 08:27, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
See reply on the above page. (I thought I'd left a message there before, but must have moved on after hitting "Show Preview" and before actually saving it: easily done!). PamD 08:36, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

A58 road etc

Thanks for your msg. I have replied on my talk page, at User talk:BrownHairedGirl#references_for_roads. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Stub sorting

Thanks for the message. Note that the theatre stubs do not include play or musical stubs, or else there would be thousands more stubs there. The musical-theat-stub is correct for all musicals, and they're pretty much all there now. Several of the ones that originally were sorted as euro-theat-stub were my fault when I was new, so you have alerted me to my old mistake. Thanks, and best regards, -- Ssilvers 17:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


I put the citation tag because I didn't have time to check your comment. Usually I check the facts that people put up but I didn't have time. I've now followed your link. Yes there is a playhouse and it opened in 1984. Unfortunately your link goes to an advert rather than the about us page with the opening date. Strangely both sites have the same link so I don't know how to fix that for you. It would be better if it went to the correct page rather than spam. [Epsom Play house]. regards SuzanneKn (talk) 17:34, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

South West Coast Path

Thanks for all your hard work on the South West Coast Path rewrite! Geof Sheppard (talk) 13:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Geof, and thanks for your work on it too. It's looking good. I've just added a bit more about transport, and have also made an article for the SWCPA (sorting out the links from the path article to it). I think the article perhaps needs a bit more about walking the path, record times, etc, and a few statistics - somewhere I've got or have seen a list of how many stiles, gates etc! Plus which is the highest point? I think Great Hangman near Combe Martin, but can't find a source (it should go in the infobox). Plenty still to do. But then... are we aiming for GA? FA? Worth at least GA I should think, with a bit more polishing! PamD (talk) 20:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Thurrock Services (or services even!)

I wondered why they were redlinked! Thanks! Sunil060902 (talk) 17:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

cool green thingy

Hi, I had the same spacing problem, thanks for fixing it. I also stole, borrowed, recycled your date thingy :) You know I never noticed the + and I've been a wikipedian close to a year now. Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving. VartanM (talk) 00:58, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

South West Coast Path

Hi Pam, thanks for your message. I've replied on my talk page, by giving a few pointers as to what can be taken at face value and what could perhaps be verified. It's not intended to be a check list, but if you choose to use it as one, thats OK by me. I hope it helps. I think that its a good article, certainly worth the B class that I gave it, but for a B class article most of the sections are unreferenced - it would probably not make a GA at present.Pyrotec (talk) 22:58, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Batley Hall

Hello. I was very interested to read your small addition to Upper Batley with reference to The 17th century banqueting hall in the grounds of Batley Old Hall. I am not sure which building you mean. I suspect you mean the brick built building that has been restored and extended? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Countarthurstrong (talkcontribs) 20:11, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I got my information from the Images of England database, to which I made a link. If it's wrong, please correct it. The OS grid ref in the IoE entry might help identify which building it is, if the description doesn't. I can't now remember what led me to Upper Batley in the first place! PamD (talk) 21:30, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
You don't know how impressed I am that you have corrected my spelling! Researched the info from THe History Of Batley 1800 to 1976 written by Malcolm Haigh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Countarthurstrong (talkcontribs) 19:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Williams Wollaston

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of that convention (oops, I should study stuff a bit closer maybe!) That might be the easiest way to distinguish them though. I'm aware that there is already a William Wollaston page, (seems to have been a popular name!) Maybe when I've done both Ips MPs I'll move that one and make it a disambig.... As for my interest in them, I lived there for 25 years...

ttfn Jcuk (talk) 00:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I've now done a dab page, leaving the philosopher with the unmodified name, and tidied various hatnotes. In the process I find there are two Francis Ws only distinguished by birthdates... but I'm not going to try and sort them out, as a father and son, both FRS, with very little info about them! I guess sometimes it's the only option as a last resort. PamD (talk) 08:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I've had a go at Francis....called Father FW (Scientist), son FW (Priest and Astronomer) and left grandson well alone!! Thanks for pointing out the dates in that box, sorted. Jcuk (talk) 10:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
There was a typo in one of the Wollastons in the dab page, and I think the convention is that what you see on the dab page is the article title, so I've tweaked it around a bit. Hope you're happy with it. PamD (talk) 12:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Checking on "what links here" for the dab page it seemed that the grandson was the most interesting of them! Have created a stub for Francis John Hyde Wollaston, and dabbed a couple of links to him. PamD (talk) 14:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

UK National Trails

Thanks for your note about these. I am putting in info boxes in the Category:Long-distance footpaths in the United Kingdom and I won't therefore put in UK national trails in them all. Glad you were pleased with the Fen Rivers Way, it was a surprise to see it duplicated and very easy to sort out. As a retired librarian you are certainly carrying on doing a lot of excellent work SuzanneKn (talk) 15:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Hugh Seat

Thanks for some "face washing" of my recent article on Hugh Seat - I'm gradually getting trained in Wiki-ways! OldFaw (talk) 22:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

William Beckett

Just a quick note to say that this page is no longer protected. Have at it.  :-) Can't sleep, clown will eat me 08:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:SMRTlogo.jpg

Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:SMRTlogo.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia constitutes fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Mayalld 14:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't realise I needed to put the info in a formal "rationale" section, thought I'd included all the relevant facts in the "summary". I hope I've now fulfilled the requirements. PamD 15:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Fen Rivers Way

Barnstar of Diligence.png The Barnstar of Diligence
Good edit work on Fen Rivers WaySuzanneKn (talk) 21:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Wow, Thanks! My very first barnstar. PamD (talk) 23:47, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


OK. I'll stop "helping" and leave it to you to sort out. Pdfpdf (talk) 12:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Pdf: Sorry if my edit summary was a bit brusque - just that italic "hatnotes" ought to be to help the reader find where the heading they've just typed is actually to be found, and no-one is going to hit the "Three letter acronym" page by typing "TLA"! But I quite agree that there should be links to the dab page from the acronym Cheers, PamD 14:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


Just a note to let you know that having considered the points you made on the [[Yorkshire Museum Gardens}} talk page I have now come round to your way of thinking about the {{formatnum}} template. I don't know of any English speaking nation that doesn't use decimal points and commas in the way that we do, so its only use, as you said, is to format the numerical output from other templates. Thanks for making me think about that. :) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

IP vandal

Thanks for your message. In this instance, someone at the IP address made two vandalism edits at about 9:30 UTC and then stopped even before you warned and reported them at about 10:00 UTC. Thereafter, there were no further edits. As blocks are preventative rather than punitive, and the vandal was no longer active, there was no need to block the IP at 11:05 UTC when I looked at the report, and so I removed it. As for the previous warnings, there is no guarantee that the person who made those previous edits was the same person who made the edit today: in fact, as the IP is a "BT Broadband" one, it's more than likely that the IP had been reallocated. See Wikipedia:Guide to administrator intervention against vandalism for more information. Regards, BencherliteTalk 11:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


CopyeditorStar7.PNG The Copyeditor's Barnstar
For your terrific work disanbigating. . . disbigamuat. . . ambedis. . . making dab pages, Quadell awards you this nifty barnstar!  

P.S. Have you ever given any thought to becoming an admin? Would you like me to nominate you? I think you'd be great at it, and we need more librarians with mops (and flamethrowers) around these parts. All the best, – Quadell (talk) (random) 17:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the barnstar! I've only today found the Names disambiguation project, and it's rather fun... and I've allowed myself to keep putting off what I ought to have been doing today! As for admin... well, thanks but no thanks. I spend too much of my life on WikiPedia as it is, must try and kick the habit and get on with more real life, so becoming an admin would not be a Good Thing for me. But it's kind of you to suggest it! PamD (talk) 17:59, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Ah well, it's our loss. But if you ever consider changing your mind, drop me a line! – Quadell (talk) (random) 20:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

One more thing. A long time ago, I'd asked here if there were changes that would have made the list easier to use. I have another batch of dab-needed names for when this first batch is done, but I'd like to make it as easy for our disambiguators as possible. So if you have suggestions, I'm all ears! – Quadell (talk) (random) 01:02, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Robert Milligan (Bradford MP)

Where? The link goes to a main page. Where is the reference to Milligan? Sting_au Talk 11:55, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok thanks :-) Found him when I scrolled down. Some of my ancestors came out from Yorkshire. I did find several hits for Robert Milligan via Google. That link you gave me would be a better one to use on the article as it leads more directly to his listing. Certainly makes it easier to check the source. Cheers, Sting_au Talk 12:31, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

opinion request

On the disamb page Kevin Brown there are three baseball players. The article of one is distinguished by (baseball), while the other two are distinguished by middle initials. This doesn't look right to me. What do you think? Kingturtle (talk) 02:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Quite a problem! I've tidied up the page for KDB a bit, while looking at it. WP:NAMEPEOPLE doesn't really help - don't use middle names/initials to dab if they aren't generally used, don't use dates of birth to dab, "be imaginative". We can't even split them into pitcher and catcher as there are 2 pitchers. It might be interesting to ask at .... well, you've beaten me to it, I was just checking Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (people) and you're there! I've added it as a followon to your question there. PamD (talk) 08:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
PS I see that Kevin Brown (baseball) was originally Kevin Brown and then was moved to Kevin Brown (pitcher) ! Also, looking at "What links here" from the dab page, I bet the vast majority of them are intended for this person, and may well have predated that first move if the moving editor didn't chase up all the links and update them. Complicate. PamD (talk) 08:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

"LEA and local authority not the same"

In fact they are. The government has specifically denegrated the use of the term LEA, as stated at Local Education Authority - "The phrase is now obsolete in official use, but is still frequently used informally to refer to the Education Department of the relevant local authority." I'll leave your amendment on the Dorset page however, until I can think of better wording.

CS46 18:14, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


Thanks for your comments on the Sport and recreation section of Exmoor. I've incorporated them but if you feel further changes are needed please feel free.— Rod talk 17:17, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Sir Roger Clifford: hanged or hung?

Question is still open. See my last comment on the York Castle talk page. I now lean towards hung, but the evidence is ambiguous. Acad Ronin (talk) 01:54, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

TLA (again)

Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar.png The "Patience of Job" Barnstar
I'm giving you this barnstar because of your incredible patience, politeness, persistence, tolerance and skill in dealing with mis-guided editors. Well done, and keep up the good work. Pdfpdf (talk) 11:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, thank you very much! It remains to be seen, of course, whether the latest little tiff has been concluded or whether we're in for more of it! PamD (talk) 11:36, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

True. But I have confidence that you will handle it all in a more than adequate manner. Pdfpdf (talk) 12:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The link

Hi. I'm removing the link deliberately as traditional county links to Counties of the United Kingdom. Traditional counties as a concept did not really exist across the UK on a similar basis. Most notably Scotland just had "counties". MRSCTalk 09:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Historic counties of England might be a good one to add there. MRSCTalk 09:24, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
As long as the unit referred to is linked e.g. Monmouthshire there is no need to link to a unit describer article. If anything that is overlinking as the detail is contained within the article. Removing overlinking or links to irrelevant/misleading articles is a good thing. MRSCTalk 09:30, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Current revision

  • I'm sorry, but I think you have the wrong user. (talk) 00:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Perhaps your IP address is shared with other users - there certainly appear to have been 2 vandalising edits to Mile made by User: - see here and here PamD (talk) 00:20, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


Just to update - I ask another admin, Pedro, to take a quick look and he has just got back to suggest taking to WP:RM to get it reversed. Also noticed it leaves us with 2 articles on the council - Leeds city council & Leeds City Council. Keith D (talk) 17:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

caves etc

I'm glad someone is taking an interest!!! I hope you can keep me honest. I'm trying to mobilize some cavers (apart from me) to start making contributions. Otherwise progress will be slow. I was only starting out these pages from a basic guidebook and a few web references. My guidebook is only 5 years old but already out of date. There is an extensive amount of recent discoveries in the caves on Leck Fell, which are being reported in Descent (a valid periodical for citations, and for sale from the shops in Ingleton). There is also a huge quantity of historical paperwork in the libraries listed at Caving in the United Kingdom, which few people know about. See the picture on cave digging for an image of a shaft that was very recently opened up, creating a way down to a 5km cave system that was formerly only accessible by cave diving from the bottom of an adjacent cave.

I have put some of my ideas into Wikipedia:WikiProject_Caves. Perhaps you could review its suitability. Basically, I don't want to use the wikipedia pages as a guidebook; but perhaps only to refer to which guidebooks describe how to get down the cave. Also to outline the history of exploration, which is not normally mentioned in a guidebook, and has to be compiled from multiple references. The history goes back 70 years on many of those caves. Between those caves on Leck Fell, and across the valley towards Casterton Fell is the Easegill System, which is the longest cave system in the UK. It would be sad if walkers were not generally aware of this.

I'm afraid I don't have time to clear up the Rowton Pot/Cave mixup as it's not in my guidebook. It'll have to be someone else.Goatchurch (talk) 00:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Grand Theatre disambiguation page

Reeeeeeeeealllllllly because 33,157,200 people believe Canada is as important as the UK, or the US, who both have divided listings on the page. I am a professional theatrical props builder in Canada, and I plan on updating the Grand Theatre pages for my country with pride, because they are important, and culturally significant. Thanks for your welcome, and your tips. I'm glad to be here. John.

John, I've got no problem at all with there being a "Canada" section on that page. I just don't think you then need to specify "Canada" in each line. That's just the same as the UK and US sections - the only countries named are those in the "Other" section, from which you've quite reasonably extracted the Canadian entries to give them their own section. What's the problem? PamD (talk) 22:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
None, I misunderstood your issue with the page, and the undo's of my original edit. Now I understand, Thanks.

Somerset FAC

Unfortunately there has been a problem with FAC (possibly due to transcluded pages/templates & overall page size). As a result several nominations, including Somerset, have had to be restarted and I have been informed that all previous commentary (both supporting and opposing), including yours is void. As a result would you be kind enough to review the page and place any comments at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Somerset. Thanks— Rod talk 19:22, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Constituency templates continued

Thank you for your recent messages on my talk page: I appreciate the effort involved. Unfortunately, I find myself distracted by events and so cannot give your messages my full attention. Thank you for your time, regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 00:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi there, just wanted to say thanks for telling me about the discussion at TfD. Green Giant (talk) 00:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


Working Man's Barnstar.png The Working Woman's Barnstar
For your tireless contributions on the disambiguation project and especially for clearing out the 'D's this afternoon I award you this Working Woman's Barnstar. nancy (talk) 18:04, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Well that's very kind of you, thanks! We only just avoided edit conflict over John Duffy, I see. I tend to meander around looking for other eligible folk to add to any dab page, as well as the ones on the list - all part of the infinite jigsaw puzzle which is Wikipedia. And all good excuses for not doing various real-life jobs I should have done this afternoon! PamD (talk) 18:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

John Marshall

Thanks for the information regarding redlinked entries. I'm in the middle of making a list of former Middlesbrough F.C. players, which is taking a while with the amount of notable (per given criteria) players included, and he was one of them. I'll make sure to re-include him when the thing finally goes live. Thanks again for the heads-up regards policy. --Simmo676 (talk) 18:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Patriarch Alexius II

I have made a suggestion at Patriarch Alexius II#Propose Protecting this Article that I think is workable. It changes the rules a little and should significantly reduce conflict. I would like to invite you to review the proposal and participate in the creation of a great article. It will stop edit warring by restricting work to the talk page in part because reverting another editors comments on the talk page is counter to WP:TALK. Jeepday (talk) 04:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Stub sorting

Thanks for your invitation to join the stub sorting project, but it is an activity in which I have no interest. After nearly 9500 mainspace edits, I am thoroughly aware of the existence of a diverse variety of stub templates. When I encounter stubs in areas I am familiar with, I usually try to add an appropriate topical template. However, when I encounter or create a stub article in an unfamiliar area (for example, an article I visited because of following a link on a vandal's edit log), I feel I am doing good when I fix obvious problems (such as the need for categorization or the lack of a stub template on a vestigial article), and I feel no obligation to make the article more perfect by researching stub templates appropriate to the topic. (As it happens, you encountered my edits in an article about a school in Malaysia, which is probably the only Malaysian school article I've ever touched.) I'm glad that there are other contributors, like you, who are willing to focus on areas that don't happen to interest me. --Orlady (talk) 01:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Run for Mooore

Can you confirm Run for Moore is a mens-only charity event, women can run to I thought? --Gothgirlangel1981 (talk) 16:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

See (though women can volunteer, see ) PamD (talk) 16:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
So it is or it isn't? Also can you add those links to the Run for Moore article as sources if poss - im not very good at that type of thing. Thanks. --Gothgirlangel1981 (talk) 16:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, Run for Moore is men-only. Refs added. PamD (talk) 16:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

European Parliament constituencies

PamD, hi! I was archiving my talk page when I noticed that you'd left a message there that I hadn't replied to (apologies for the oversight). Thank you for your message: I think i could have made a stab at defending the templates (two notable exceptions to the single-use-template rule are periodic table element templates and election templates: wheras the former do not come within the constituency remit, the latter certainly does), but it was quicker to change them than to defend them. As luck would have it, three have them had errors (which gives me an overall success rate of approx 98% - hey, nobody's perfect<grin>) so the exercise turned out OK for all concerned. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 00:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Template:Roman Catholic Dioceses in Great Britain

Thanks for your comments. Deacon is being disruptive by deleting templates that he disagrees with. I appreciate your comments, but as you can see Deacon is unwilling to discuss his changes. Benkenobi18 (talk) 07:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Hallo Benkenobi: In the light of that, I've been to the Leeds diocese page and made changes which seem sensible to me, before looking at the history and discovering that I agree with you on one and not the other change! As I understand it, articles shouldn't be categorised at a "parent" category (dioceses in GB) as well as a "child" category (dioceses E&W), so I deleted the former. But, on the other hand, the broader template which includes Scotland seems to me to be more useful than the E&W-only one. I hope I'm being logical here. PamD (talk) 08:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but the problem is this if we have a separate one for Scotland we need a separate category for England and Wales. I would like to take this whole mess to a CFD or whatever so we can get this sorted out once and for all. You can't elevate Scotland and not do England and Wales. The reason for the "broader template" is because all of the dioceses have a "country" one and an "episcopal conference". The "episcopal conference" is England and Wales. The country is Great Britain. Perhaps the templates should be renamed to emphasise this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benkenobi18 (talkcontribs) 09:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Ah well, I've made the Leeds one look OK (as it seems to me) for now - good luck in coming to a wider decision among those interested in dioceses. My angle is Leeds. PamD (talk) 09:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Stubby Reservoirs

Thanks for the advice re stub sorting. I was hoping to get round to sorting the stubs later. This wasn't really a nerdy "write an article about every reservoir" activity - I was just frustrated at having so many red-links in List of lakes in England and started to create the required articles. Up until your note, nobody else had seemed to notice so I thought I had time on my side ! Thanks anyway. Velela (talk) 19:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Textile TLA

Hi. I started a discussion thread at Talk:TLA that I'd welcome your input on. Thanks :) -- Quiddity (talk) 20:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

My goodness! ("Patience of Job" with gold bar?) Well done. Pdfpdf (talk) 03:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

"a very substantially contribution"!

Yes, well, I am currently having a very frustrating time with my BT HomeHub which drops my internet connexion at random for no obvious reason. Camping out on Wm's computer - which works fine - at present. Thanks for organising the Kirkstall event. --GuillaumeTell (talk) 23:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

You have my sympathy - my Tiscali line also drops randomly, and despite having "save" set to 1 minute in Word I've sometimes lost lots of work. Firefox, which I've only recently started using instead of IE, has a habit of offering to reopen all the tabs you had open when it was unexpectedly crashed, which is helpful! PamD (talk) 07:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

dashes on talk:MOS

Hey, thanks for informing me. I could have not knew and corrected another "headache" in that page. I think I still have a fever. --Efe (talk) 10:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for making the changes. Still pretty new to all this so still trying to get my head around all the editorial requirements. I'm actually an archivist & I'm cataloguing the GDST collection which is deposited at the Institute of Education. I had to write a history of the Trust for my catalogue so I thought I might as well edited it so it could be put on here as well. I keep added things as I find more information. The archive collection is the Trust's main records which includes miscellaeous stuff about each school. The collection does have some pictures but I will have to check the copyright before I can put any on. K8tmoon (talk) 14:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

TLA (22Feb08)

Hi Pam. Heads-up: Lots going on at Three letter acronym and Talk:Three letter acronym. Pdfpdf (talk) 21:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, I noticed, with sinking heart. Not sure I've got the stamina/time to keep on with the struggle, but I might drop by again! PamD (talk) 09:07, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to take "first strike" on this one, and have you come in and "mop up" after, if that makes life easier for you.
Conversely, I'm happy to keep right out of it, if that's your preference - Your call. Pdfpdf (talk) 09:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Changing category names

I've replied to your question at WT:CFD - sorry nobody appears to have replied more quickly! Regards, BencherliteTalk 02:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, and thanks for the good news. I've got a little list in mind! PamD (talk) 08:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

TLA, etc.

By-the-way: I'm contemplating taking TLA etc. off my watchlist - you seem to be doing a more than adequate job of monitoring it, and a better than me job of handling it; I don't feel like I'm adding any value, and perhaps I'm getting in your way. Plus, it's time I got a life. (Or failing that, my wife thinks it's time I indulged in some interests that didn't involve a keyboard.) So, "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish", and keep up the good work. I think you know that I think you're doing a great job. Bye, Peter. Pdfpdf (talk) 12:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I wonder about taking it off my watch-list too, as it's hardly one of the most important bits of WP - but then I rather like it, and don't want to see it messed up! I'll stay keeping an eye on it in case some serious-minded person comes along and wants to delete it all as unencyclopedic. I don't really think it needs all the examples, but will go along with them to keep the third editor happy. I too ought to get a bit more of a life - am spending far too much time on WP, as I keep discovering new little games like Wikipedia:Suggestions for name disambiguation, Wikipedia:WikiProject Red Link Recovery, Wikipedia:Typo, Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting and Wikipedia:Most wanted articles to play with. As well as keeping an eye on interesting pages. And creating news ones from time to time. It does feel like an addiction (well, as far as I know, having had the fortune to avoid any acknowledged addictions hitherto!): too often I sit down at the keyboard with my breakfast muesli in one hand and then realise it's become lunchtime and the morning has disappeared. Good luck in sorting out your life, and thanks for the kind words. PamD (talk) 16:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


Fine. I tagged it as {{Underconstruction}}, but if no one has moved on it in a week, I'm going to redirect it again. You really shouldn't create articles, even stubs, without sufficient contect. (See Ideal stub article.) Cheers! - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 17:41, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It may not have been an "ideal" stub article, but I created it because there are 21 links to it from 20 pages (according to Wikipedia:Most wanted articles). It had a sentence saying what it is with a couple of internal links, a stubtype, and a category, which sets it already as a vastly superioer article to quite a lot of what gets added to WP! I don't think it was appropriate to, effectively, do a speedy-delete on it: it doesn't meet the criteria of WP:CSD. OK, let's wait and see if someone adds a bit more content. Might even trawl around and find a bit myself - wandering into areas of knowledge completely new to me. PamD (talk) 17:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I sweear I'm not a deletionist! However.......... unless it has enough to float on its own as an article, it really should be redirected, and any info gleaned be merged into the main article. I'll wait for a while. If we're all lucky, I'll forget about it completely. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 18:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Peers who were also baronets

Your views are sought at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Baronetcies#Peers_who_were_Baronets - Kittybrewster 23:22, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

tombola? tombolo?

I thought it was kind of odd that there wasn't any entry for that already! It seems to be widespread enough that it's an alternate spelling rather than a typo, but still relatively rare. I'll make it a redirect and put a note on the tombola page. KarlM (talk) 18:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

"Probably right, but incomprehensible!"

You've just created my family motto—now I just need to get it translated into Latin. :-)

Sorry for the confusion (and thanks for the etymology). Regards, NapoliRoma (talk) 18:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Pancrace Bessa

Thank you for your polite exchange re the stub. Courtesy is such a rare commodity on WP that it takes one's breath away! Rotational (talk) 14:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to hear you have bad experiences on WP - we obviously move in different circles, as most of editors I interact with are polite and amiable! Good luck. PamD (talk) 14:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


Will do - it was "taxonomy-stub", which was inappropriate. But I hope that it won't be a stub when I'm done with it!

Cheers, Verisimilus T 15:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Sir Alastair Dunnett

I have nominated Sir Alastair Dunnett, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sir Alastair Dunnett. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Thebluesharpdude (talk) 23:59, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Fear not, the article survives, having been speedily closed as a keep. Regards, BencherliteTalk 00:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I was surprised it got AfD'd within 10 minutes of creation, but glad to see so many people wanting to keep it. I thought the ODNB ref was an adequate assertion of notability, but the nominator may not have recognised its significance! Have added a whole lot more content today. PamD (talk) 12:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


The Safestyle article appears less than neutral, more like an advert for the company. Frequent removals of anything that doesn't show the company in the best light. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:58, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


Re New Farnley: It is listed under Leeds Environs but is this correct? Hope you can help. 26 March 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, according to "Visions of Britain" ( and related pages) it's definitely in the parish of Farnely, and this became part of Armley and Bramley parish in 1904 and thence part of the old County Borough, so I think it's "districts of Leeds" rather than "environs". PamD (talk) 08:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Pam for the info. 28 March 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


Many thanks for your comments, particularly welcome after the strange edits (one of them "minor") by Deiz (see my comments on Talk:Land's End to John o' Groats). As one of the few Wikipedians to have actually walked from LE to JOG, I find it refreshing to see edits from those who actually know about the subject! Mhockey (talk) 17:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Category:Stubs backlog

The above backlog is now 1,200. Kathleen.wright5 07:49, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I've chipped away at it by doing all those starting with "Pa". PamD (talk) 10:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Fagotting

Nuvola apps important.svg

A tag has been placed on Fagotting, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to have no meaningful content or history, and the text is unsalvageably incoherent. If the page you created was a test, please use the sandbox for any other experiments you would like to do. Feel free to leave a message on my talk page if you have any questions about this.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. Mdebets (talk) 15:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I put the tag on by accident. It's not really needed. O made a comment on the talk page of the article, so it should come off soon. Mdebets (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 15:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Ouest Side

The article has already been deleted once - you'll notice the time stamp on my notice was in January, and the first edit of the current version of the page is from the end of March. I'm actually deleting it myself, this time, as I'm now an admin and it still meets speedy criteria. Hersfold (t/a/c) 12:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

That's fine, thanks. PamD (talk) 13:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

European parliament constituencies

Hi. I really think the link for European parliament constituencies should not go into the header of articles about EU countries. These links are supposed to link to other meanings users likely search and this one is pretty improbable. However, I suggest you add the link to the section of each article, where the EU parliament is discussed. Greetings. --Tone 08:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Tone, I think they are much better in a dab page... where this exists. But otherwise, someone looking for the Euroconstituency is faced with reading through a long article to pick out the mention of the constituency. So if there isn't a dab page, I think the hatnote is the only logical place to offer this useful link. Maybe we need to create dab pages for all the countries... there's a huge inconsistency in country dab pages as to what they include, as I'm finding now while adding Euroconstituencies to dab pages for Austria (disambiguation), Bulgaria (disambiguation) etc. PamD (talk) 08:10, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I support this idea. Requires some work but at the end we end with only one dab link in the header of each article, instead of possible several. --Tone 08:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Right now the Slovakia hatnote points to a redlinked redirect - a disambiguation page is the best spot for the European Parliament constituency when it exists, but lacking that I don't think the hatnote is a terrible place to start linking - both are political and geographic entities with an identical name. At minimum I'd say a blue hatnote to the constituency is better than a redlink to a non-existent disambiguation page. Mind if I revert or were you creating the dab page? WLU (talk) 22:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
OK now - you caught a work in progress at just the wrong moment! All the country=Euroconstituencies now have dab pages, which seems more elegant than linking from the main country page. I don't think we really need the reverse links - people are probably pretty unlikely to find themselves at "Country (European Parliament constituency)" when they are looking for "Country". PamD (talk) 22:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Conclusion: Image placeholders centralized discussion

Replace this image female.svg

Hi. I'm sending this to you because you participated in the Centralized discussion on image placeholders that ended on 23 April.

That discussion must produce a conclusion.

We originally asked "Should the addition of this box [example right] be allowed? Does the placeholder system and graphic image need to be improved to satisfy policies and guidelines for inclusion? Is it appropriate to some kinds of biographies, but not to others?" (See introduction).

Conclusions to centralized discussions are either marked as 'policy', 'guideline', 'endorsed', 'rejected', 'no consensus', or 'no change' etc. We should now decide for this discussion.

Please read and approve or disapprove the section here: Conclusion --Kleinzach (talk) 10:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Please note this message conforms to WP:CANVASSING and has not been sent to anyone has not already participated in the centralized discussion.

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - May 2008

Delivered May 2008 by ENewsBot. If you do not wish to receive the newsletter, please add two *'s by your username on the Project Mainpage.

→ Please direct all enquiries to the WikiProject talk page.
→ This newsletter/release was delivered by ENewsBot · 10:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Paley and Austin and Austin and Paley

These were not duplicate articles (was the wording the same?). They were different architectural firms in Lancaster, working at different times. OK Austin was the same but the Paleys were different - father and son. And these were the names under which the firms went (see the Pevsner series for confirmation). Paley and Austin comprised Edward Graham Paley and Hubert Austin. Austin and Paley comprised Hubert Austin and Henry Paley (was that not clear from the articles?). In fact for a while they traded as Paley, Austin and Paley. Would you like to undo the inappropriate changes you have made? Otherwise it messes up all the links to the different firms. Thank you. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 20:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Apologies: I read the two articles but not carefully enough, and didn't notice that they were different Paleys. I've undone my edit to the A&P article to revert it to the previous text, and have added a {{Distinguish}} to each in the hope it'll prevent anyone else from making the same daft mistake! I think I found both the articles by searching on the two words Austin Paley looking for a link to make from Lancaster and Morecambe College, and it's duly linked. PamD (talk) 22:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that. It's all rather confusing and it took me some time to sort out the difference. Fortunately I acquired the relevant "Pevsner" which clarified it. Actually it is still open to confusion and at risk from other editors, so I think I will write an new article about the Lancaster firm, starting with Edmund Sharpe and going through to Henry Paley, merging and maybe expanding the existing articles, with links from other articles to subsections about each phase of the business (if you see what I mean). Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Hoping to prevent confusion I have written a page entitled Sharpe, Paley and Austin which contains details of all the combinations of partners in the practice and redirected "Paley and Austin" and "Austin and Paley" there. Hope this works. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 15:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Interesting approach. (a) Are you going to list their buildings which have WP articles, under each name or firm? Otherwise, by piping the links, you lose the ability to see what "Paley and Austin" buildings are in Wikipedia (as opposed to buildings by any of the other names/firms/periods). (b) If you had redirects going from the different names it would be appropriate to bold those names within the article - my instinct would be to do so for the names from which you've got piped links, as the same purpose applies of showing the reader why they've got to the page they've reached. PamD (talk) 15:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
My immediate plan (which is subject to revision) is to write a list of works for each of the partnerships and create "see also" links. I have already done something like that for Edmund Sharpe, although it is (at present) incorporated into the article. Before I became involved with Sharpe, the Paleys and the Austins, the only WP article was Edward Graham Paley - and that has no inline citations. I hope I am making some progress. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 15:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Cumbria Way

Hi, I've noticed that you've brought a couple of long distance footpath articles up to GA status (e.g. Leeds Country Way) and was hoping you might get a chance to have a look at Cumbria Way. I'm currently doing a major expansion on this article with the ultimate aim of achieving GA status so any thoughts would be most appreciated! Thanks, Nk.sheridan   Talk 22:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Quick first reaction is that it's over-linked. Linking linear to a maths article doesn't contribute to understanding of the path: just because a word or phrase can be linked, it isn't necessarily a good link to add. Also any one link should only be made once per section, usually - this article has lots of repeated links. WP:overlink might be worth reading.
  • The first few sentences also duplicate a lot of info and need straightening out.
  • On your point about ext sources for notability: I think the various books would already be enough. Might be worth adding ELs to the Ramblers Assoc and LDWA sites, which presumably both have a section about the path.
  • Units: be consistent about miles (km) or km (miles) - compare infobox to lead! See WP:MOSNUM re units, but basically you can choose whether the primary unit is miles or km as it's a UK-based topic.
  • I'll try and have a more thorough look at it tomorrow sometime. Good luck with the quest for GA.PamD (talk) 23:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for the comments. You're right, I did go a bit mad with the linking! I'll address that units issue and try and clean up that lead section. Thanks again, Nk.sheridan   Talk 19:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Annie in Wonderland


Thank you for your comment on my talk page in regard to remaining faithful to eccentric spellings. I'll be more careful in the future!

Webbbbbbber (talk) 15:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


Hi KTC: Thanks for closing the RFD on Blargg. Would you like to close the RFD on Blarg with one g too, as its nomination has been withdrawn, so we can close the whole subject and remove RFD tag from that one too? Thanks! PamD (talk) 20:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not actually an admin, but I closed it anyway as you asked as it's just non-contentious cleaning up. :) KTC (talk) 20:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The Belvedere Academy

Hi - thanks for the advice on adding in references. Brigantia (talk) 21:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Fountains Fell

"It has a height of 668 metres (2,192 ft) and a relative height or topographic prominence of 243 metres (797 ft) and thus qualifies as a Marilyn" which is the source for this statement? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 17:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any source or not? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 17:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Now thoroughly sourced and expanded. PamD (talk) 19:36, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


Thank you for the correct spelling. My old-fashioned education predates Samuel Johnson's dictionary, a book I have been meaning to buy these many years. Sincerest regards, Fothergill Volkensniff IV (talk) 14:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Oops, sorry

Sorry to crash in when you were editing Lealholm, my IP server went down a couple of times this evening and in a panic I tried to rush to save some edits.--Harkey Lodger (talk) 23:24, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

No problem - I think we managed to dodge round each other and edit alternately! PamD (talk) 06:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Fountains Fell

Updated DYK query On 30 May, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Fountains Fell, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--BorgQueen (talk) 18:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


Back in late March, you changed Euphorbia poisonii to Euphorbia poissonii, on the grounds that this "appears to be the correct spelling". May I ask what is your source, especially since the extreme virulence of resiniferatoxin would seem to make "poisonii" far more apropos? DS (talk) 00:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I must have come across the two spellings while working through Wikipedia:WikiProject Red Link Recovery/Repeated letters/5, with one of them flagged up as a redlink which only differed by a double letter from an article name. They appeared to be referring to the same plant, and I may have Googled the two names to find the more common - today the Google hits are 781:436 in favour of poissonii, although I agree that the species seems to have more to do with toxicology than with fish. I see that the first of the two Sources shown (albeit on page 1 not page 7) has the one-n spelling (the 2nd source seems to be a dead link). Have moved the page back and corrected spelling. There will now be a redirect from the other spelling. PamD (talk) 22:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
But looking further, some of the "poisonnii" refs seem reliable sources too, so I've added a mention of the variant spelling with a ref. I'm not a botanist so don't know how to resolve the question of which is "the" spelling here! It could be that two different species are being described, but sounds unlikely (my ref for poisonnii mentions Resiniferatoxin). PamD (talk) 22:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

you may want to chime in at

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#"Unrealiable prodders". --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

  • I have restored the Judith Blake PROD, it's OK to restore them if they were removed tendentiously. Black Kite 16:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks - was in the process of AfDing it, but PROD is more appropriate. PamD (talk) 16:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire - June 2008 Newsletter

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→ This newsletter/release was delivered by ENewsBot · 11:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

stubsorting? what is stubsorting?

What is stubsorting? What is stubsorting listing?

You mentioned these terms here, but there is no WP entry for them.

I found the nowiki tag, but why is it used in that context?

I find many things about WIKIPEDIA confusing. When terms are used to explain an edit, and those terms are not even listed on WP, it doesn't make any sense at all. Is there anyplace this stuff is explained?FX (talk) 05:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

(edited) Damn it. I always forget to sign the user pages. FX (talk) 05:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that! There's a project called Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting which looks at articles tagged as {{stub}} and aims to put them into one of the categories of stubs (eg {{paleo-reptile-stub}} or in this case {{US-basketball-bio-stub}}) so that people interested in that subject area can find stub articles in their area and help to improve them. So I and other people look regularly at the listing at Category:Stubs and aim to categorise, or "stub-sort", each of them and get them out of that general listing. Ideally the category is empty - once a month or so it gets to 1200 or so when some automatic programme is run which labels very short articles as stubs, and we work on getting it back to zero. Pages which are user subpages shouldn't be appearing in the listing, and "nowiki"-ing seemed the least intrusive way to get it out of the list.
The "nowiki" is a useful way to leave stuff in an article as text while making the wikipedia software ignore it - so when I added it around the "stub" tag in your article on your userpage subpage, it meant that wikipedia wouldn't treat is as being a real article which had been tagged as a stub, so that it appeared in the Category:Stubs listing. (Similarly, I've added ":" in front of the word "Category" in that link, so that you can follow the link to the category but Wikipedia doesn't assign this page to that category as it otherwise would - it's a useful device when talking about categories. And I've added "tl|" in front of "stub" within the curly brackets above, which has the same effect - it allows us to talk about the stub tag "template" without it being interpreted as applying to this page. The "tl" stands for "template link".)
Hope that helps - sorry to have been so cryptic! PamD (talk) 06:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I think. There appears to be many things sort of running below the surface here, which I only find out about after the fact. Shouldn't the terms I asked about, as well as all other "wikipedia only" terms, have a definition/explanation page about them?

In this case a redirect would work, for stubsorting.FX (talk) 16:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm so over the jargon

But thanks for the heads up. Did you see I made a redirect for stubsorting? I am getting into redirects of late. FX (talk) 02:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Possible Worlds

I accidentally removed the disambig tag from Possible Worlds, it should of course still be a disambiguation page. I see you've already fixed it, so, problem solved! --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 16:11, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Surname disambiguations

Please see here. Would you know who else was active there and who might be interested in a restarting of that project? Carcharoth (talk) 10:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

You could look here and here and at similar pages, to see who was working on it. It's certainly an interesting project, trying to establish whether "John Bloggs (politician)" is or is not the same as "John A. Bloggs", and setting up links so that anyone looking up "John Bloggs" will get to both of them. I usually went beyond the terms of the project by searching for other "John Bloggs"es out there, to include them too in dab page or hatnote as appropriate. It's a satisfying bit of Wiki-Gnome work: helping readers find the article they're looking for, and helping prevent duplicate articles being created by making sure the potential creator of new article can easily find the existing one! PamD (talk) 11:23, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Renyi, surname template, Alaibot

No reason why it should, since {{surname}} doesn't appear to add any categories -- that article is still completely uncategorised. If it's intended to be in the style of {{hndis}} and {{disambig}}, it presumbly should have a category of some kind, as those do. (If a further response is sought, please reply to my page, rather than here on my bot's page. Thanks.) Alai (talk) 12:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Kingston upon Hull

Indeed it is a dangling modifier!

Thank you for catching my evening's mistakes! It's a good thing I don't just change things like that on my own, that would be especially foolish. Best, Epicadam (talk) 13:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

stubs all cleared!

Nice job! -- KathrynLybarger (talk) 21:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)



Check this out - talk:Partitive

Also, the bit on quantifiers needs to have some extra ones "glass of water", for example(?). I'd love to do it but i'm a bit of a perfectionist and...not rite now, basically.

Feel up to it :-) x N. (talk) 18:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Not really my territory - I sorted the stub to get it into the right category, but will leave it to the linguists now! PamD (talk) 18:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
that's fine - take care! (talk) 11:48, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


H School & T College,butithad nopage.Some Guy (Izzy259) (talk) 10:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Chordate genomics

Thank you for correcting the Wiki stub marker at the end of the new Wikipedia article, Chordate genomics, I created earlier today. I just put in what I could for now. I will enlarge it as I find time. I hope that others will take a hand.

Nick Beeson (talk) 18:39, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Surname dabs

Hey, I guess it's just us two for now, hey? :-) I still think they are surname pages, but better to get the pages done, I think. They can easily be standardised later. For what it is worth, I think George Washington (disambiguation) is an example of a disambiguation page, while surname pages don't actually have pages with the same names, if you see what I mean? One more thing, how long does it take you on average to do one of those. I find it depends, and can be anything from a few minutes to over 5 minutes if I find other things to tidy up, or lots of names to add. Carcharoth (talk) 22:16, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Shan Oakes

Having previously un-speedied and un-prodded Shan Oakes, I thought you'd want to know that I have now started an AfD about the article: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shan Oakes. Bondegezou (talk) 12:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

H&H candidates

Cheers for the tidy up, heh, I was trying to put the candidates into some kind of decent order, and, wham, there you go and do it in no time :) With so many candidates I dread to think how we're going to keep a tab on the subtle vandalism I think will come up as the weeks go on....doktorb wordsdeeds 08:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I think they're now as tidied as I can get them. What a circus! PamD (talk) 08:50, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
At least we won't have to spend too long working out changes in vote share =) doktorb wordsdeeds 08:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Heya. Do you think a "no label" article would be a good idea, if there's enough on-line to start one? Thinking earlier that maybe a re-direct to the existing independent article could be another option? doktorb wordsdeeds 16:47, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Certainly sounds as if we need either an article, or a section in Independent (politician) with a redirect from No label. It's an odd concept, certainly - what does it mean, beyond "Independent"? PamD (talk) 17:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
It is a bit odd. Prior to the registration rules, candidates could call themselves almost anything (check the articles for the Ribble Valley, or Newbury, by-elections for some good examples). This, of course, included or allowed "Literal Democrat" and "New Labour Candidate" 'spoilers'. Alas somewhere in the rule making machinery some bright spark has decided that if a candidate doesn't want to register a party name at £150 a chuck, or call themselves "independent", it would be an awful wheeze to allow them the dubious distinction of having no recognisible label at all. What it means "other than independent" is pretty questionable, I guess they are independent, just without using that label it means they can....I dunno, claim to be beyond even that level of political terminology? The Electoral Commission website has had a re-vamp so any sources could take a while but when I have time I should be able to get an article together, if not a real one than a re-direct. doktorb wordsdeeds 17:22, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

George Hargreaves (politician)

Updated DYK query On 1 July, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article George Hargreaves (politician), which you recently nominated. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--BorgQueen (talk) 08:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

George Hargreaves

Thanks for the compliment! I may well nominate the article for DYK, but as you've thought of a good possible hook, would you like to nominate it yourself? Warofdreams talk 22:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for nominating the article and informing me of the comments - it's always nice to see an article I've contributed to on the front page! Warofdreams talk 20:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Newsletter - July 2008

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→ This newsletter/release was delivered by ENewsBot · 12:25, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Reading (for degree) deletion acknowledgement

Reading (for degree) has been marked for deletion on 09:38 7 July 2008. I do not have significant insight on its notability. It may be possible to expand upon this stub through its etymology and its usage in popular culture, but my decision dependent on yours, what is your say? (A librarian from Leeds, that's a rarity) ChyranandChloe (talk) 01:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I think I said it all in my PROD for the article - it doesn't really exist as a noun in any sort of common use, so at best the article is describing one dictionary definition of the verb. The article seems to me to add nothing useful to Wikipedia. PamD (talk) 07:32, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Poincare Sphere

As far as I can discern with google, the ONLY use of the term "Poincare Sphere" is in polarimetry. It is certainly the only use I've ever encountered. There's even a wikipedia image showing the stokes components: [1]. The only reference on the entire WWW where the term points to "Homology Sphere" appears to be right here on Wikipedia (and a sprinkling of what appears to be verbatim copies of wikipedia). Which would make this redirect "original research". Or at best it is an "obscure usage" or some such. Consequently I had removed the redirect to "Homology Sphere" right here [2]. Promptly, you re-directed it back again a couple edits later. This makes me wonder whether there's some formal process that I don't understand to remove a redirect... Iron Condor (talk) 17:56, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Hallo. There's confusion here because there were two items, with and without the accent: Poincaré sphere had been a redirect to Homology sphere since 2004; Poincare sphere without the accent originally redirected to the accented version, then to Homology sphere. Then it was amended to a sort of dictionary definition, without any links to other articles. It was short, got labelled as a stub, and I came across it when stub-sorting, looked around and concluded it was a mis-accented version of the long-established redirect, and redirected accordingly. Perhaps we need the unaccented version to redirect to the accented, and a dab page there to indicate the two meanings? I'm not an expert in the subject areas, just a WP:WikiGnome! In answer to your pondering about how to remove a redirect... I'd guess it's usually best to find somewhere better to redirect it to, or turn it into a dab page, or make an article of it, but to get it deleted altogether you need to put it to WP:RFD. PamD (talk) 18:46, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
I've made changes as outlined above - what do you think? PamD (talk) 19:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for catching me on the mis-reference Australia when talking about the Kiwi - I'm glad to correct that. You'd think I would have known, with it being in bold right there on the page... at least now I am enlightened. :) -- Natalya 12:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)



Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 15:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

dab sugestions

Hi PamD, thanks for adding the redirect at Äschbacher. The dab suggestions project is very interesting. As I feel tempted to help with it, I wanted to ask you if there is a way to help the search for similar names. Do you do a Google search and look for suggestions?... how is your process? Maybe it should be described somewhere so other people can jump into it and help more easily (for example, I had to look at the history of the list to see how you did with the ones that were completed) Cheers, Waldir talk 14:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

PS-please reply in my talk page --Waldir talk 14:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

You're right, at first glance I knew I'd become addicted to it! Fortunately I don't have more wiki time for today, otherwise I'd probably don't stop until... who knows :P A side note: i changed the link on Abed. I believe the main namespace is selected by default. --Waldir talk 14:41, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Congratulations! when is the next batch going to be generated? I had some trouble with the Allio/Aglio yesterday, and eventually ended up creating a few new articles from scratch. Before that, however, i ran into a few suggestions that seemed rather buggy - I pointed that in the edit summary when removing those sections. Can you look into that? Waldir talk 17:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


Good work on IGS, Pam. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:43, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

And yourself too - plenty of "mature input" between us. It'll be interesting to see what the kids do with it when they see the transformation! Fingers crossed. PamD (talk) 06:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


Well done. DoorFrame (talk) 16:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Skitt's law

Sure, I added the deleted article at User:Jj137/Skitt's law. Hope that helps.   jj137 (talk) 16:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. Do you still need the user subpage? If you don't, I can go ahead and delete it.   jj137 (talk) 17:36, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I've taken a copy of it in case I can see a use for any of it later, thanks, so go ahead and delete it. Thanks for your help. PamD (talk) 17:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


I missed that... (would of). I type too fast online.

Thanks! Electric Japan (talk) 12:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, PamD. You have new messages at Beeblbrox's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Re: adding stub tags

Sorry about that. I was debating with myself for a while whether I was supposed to put it after or before the category, because I forgot how to do it. Thanks for reminding me. :) Green caterpillar (talk) 11:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Mickie Henson

Thanks for sorting out the stub on this article wasn't sure which one to use as I couldn't find one. BigDuncTalk 13:52, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


Sorry - I thought they were stubs. I'll try to remember not to do so in future. Pince Nez (talk) 16:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Muphry's Law

It's been moved to the next update, so it will be displayed on the Main Page in a few hours. The next update is the draft page for the Main Page, so your entry will be moved to T:DYK when the next update is due. Hope this helps. Best, PeterSymonds (talk) 10:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

No probs. :) Sorry for the confusion, I should've made my summaries clearer, but if I was going to remove one for another reason, my explanation would be quite full. Anyway, great article! I'm sure it'll attract lots of interest. Best, PeterSymonds (talk) 11:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for stub sorting What's the Difference. I was a tad lazy not to work out which tag to use. I love librarians! It's taken me years to work out they make my greatest joy (reading real books) possible. Then there's my mum, she married an Aussie and I've been stuck here ever since! Mum goes home to York from time to time, while I make my own way in life here in Sydney. Service, patience, knowledge ... I love librarians. Thanks again Pam. Alastair Haines (talk) 12:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Muphry's law DYK

Updated DYK query On 23 July, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Muphry's law, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Congratulations! PeterSymonds (talk) 15:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Just thought I'd say good job on this article, it's a nice one. Also particularly appropriate timing for me - having made exactly that mistake on the Help Desk just yesterday! Olaf Davis | Talk 16:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Re: Muphry's law

Well, you're welcome... An interesting article and an interesting coincidence: I stumbled upon it because it was linked to from a Slashdot forum discussion (July 17 - that's when I made an edit). Never heard of it before. And then, only days later, I saw it on the Main Page - a good example of Baader-Meinhof phenomenon... GregorB (talk) 08:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Stub sorting

Thanks for pointing out my incorrect positioning of stub tags on pages. I have been doing it wrong for quite awhile now, but no longer! StevePrutz (talk) 02:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

My mistake, it was an accident.--Nblschool (talk) 17:21, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Turan Information Agency

a reply about your petition to delete my article, it is only a small reference about a online news service, the information was reviewed and is verifiable , if you have more information to complement my contribution I'll thank you a lot this info, , :) 20:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Millermoreno (talkcontribs)

It wasn't my petition to delete - someone else had added the "PROD" (PROposed Deletion) and had not had the courtesy to tell you, so I did! PamD (talk) 20:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I thank you a lot, my apologize,--Millermoreno (talk) 20:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Dow Jones News Service

I agree it wasn't spam and didn't merit a speedy, but is the news service a distinct unit of DJ & Co. that is notable enough for a stand-alone article? It's easy enough to reinstate — just click on the section title above, then when it redirects, click on where it says "Redirected from Dow Jones News Service" and then edit the following page. You can even go back into the history and restore the original page if you like. It's so easy, GEICO thinks a caveman can do it. Let me know when you're done so I can take a look at it. Happy editing! - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 03:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - I could see technically how to reinstate it but wasn't sure whether it was allowable! Have done so now, and left the creator a note about it. The speedy just seemed a bit WP:BITEy. PamD (talk) 07:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Perfectly allowable. Have fun. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 16:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


Hi Pam, I just had an edit conflict with you, but I think I've recovered most of my changes; I'll check again. However, I noticed you linked all the constituent countries mentioned in the quotation. I understand this goes against some policy or other. Do you still want ot maintain this? (talk) 17:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, if we don't link them there, we'll need to replace some of the text which Bardcom/HighKing removed, because it makes sense to link them from somewhere pretty near the head of the article! We could just, for the moment, WP:IAR (without actually going to the trouble of finding out what rule, if any, we're ignoring) and agree to leave the links there unless or until someone objects? Is that OK by you? PamD (talk) 17:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that sounds fine. I don't personally have a problem with links in quotes. As you say, let's leave it and see if anyone has a view on it. (talk) 17:19, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
The policy in question is MOS:QUOTE, but I don't think anyone will object. The policy states "Unless there is a good reason to do so, avoid...", and since there's nowhere else in the article to link from so neatly, I think it's a good place. Also, the links go to articles with the exact same names, which removes a common reason to remove quotes. But if necessary, feel free to replace some of what I've done too - it was really just to reformat and try to present it in an uncluttered and easy to follow manner. --HighKing (talk) 17:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I'd just found the same quote, having said I wouldn't bother. I reckon the context of this quote counts as "a good reason to do so", so let's just let it be unless anyone else comes along to argue! PamD (talk) 17:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure the copyright section is required or even a good idea as it might result in somebody claiming it looks like an Ad for GENUKI (not exactly a lot of 3rd party references), and slapping a deletion template on it.... Wht do you think? --HighKing (talk) 17:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conf)It is a big issue with GENUKI. I think in some respects they (and I have one particular contributor in mind) go overboard with it. It's rammed down your throat in an unnecessary diatribe at one point [3]. Given the importance attached to it on the site it probably does merit a mention somewhere in the article, but maybe not a whole section? (talk) 17:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - August 2008

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→ This newsletter/release was delivered by ENewsBot · 23:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Classification of article


I just thought I would point out to you that Alli Blonski, an article you recently classified, is not a track and field athlete. She was a participant in Academic Decathlon, not regular decathlon.

Thank you for all you do! (talk) 15:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)Marie

Oops - I must have read the article too fast and just picked up on the word "Decathlon", never having come across the "Academic decathlon"! Thanks for picking this up. PamD (talk) 21:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


Hi PamD! We both appear to be editing the same article at the same time! :) Richard Harvey (talk) 14:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I had an edit conflict over my improvement to the stuff about the Star award. I'll hold off for now, but I think you have removed too much so might return when you've finished. PamD (talk) 14:51, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
My second edit was the final one, but you seem to have removed some wikilinks that I placed, is this intentional or due to the edit conflict. Also I don't think the social activites are relevant as that is not really encyclopaedic, more of interest just to the members internally. :) Richard Harvey (talk) 14:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, they are a big part of why it was/is important in many people's lives! Sorry about the links - while working on that section I noticed lack of them, was going to check back whether they were linked in intro section. Now replaced, I hope. (ANd something's gone wrong with my talk page - that green box is supposed to float below last message but today is over-writing!) PamD (talk) 15:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Okay fair enough :0) I have corrected another error from the conflict and also a dab. I don't like overly wikiling a page but this one needed something. The big problem is finding others to link to this. It seems someone tried to link to it from the Peak District article See also section but it was removed (correctly by another editor). I tried a green box floating thing ages ago it drove me mad so I gave up and just put the big bold one at the top of my page! :o) Ah well time to get some lunch, I've finished with editing the page. Richard Harvey (talk) 15:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

adding stub tags

Is there a formatting convention that I can use instead of just {{stub}} that would make it easier on you? Is it like a PROD where I can put "|" with something after it like {{stub|music}} or something? Jasynnash2 (talk) 16:30, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

No - people often try adding a "|" but it has no effect! See Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting. I don't think you have to be a member of that project, to pick a stub type from the enormous list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Stub types or the more manageable structure at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/List of stubs. If most of the articles you create are in one area, you'll get to know the tags. The RS McColl article already had a {{UK-retail-stub}} tag, so didn't need another plain stub tag - if you feel an article needs improvement there are plenty of other tags to add. Hope that helps! PamD (talk) 17:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

UK charities

Hi, good to see we have a mutual interest in charities - you may be interested in my temp page User:Mervyn/Scratch3 of the Top 100 UK charities by expenditure - it shows some curious gaps, so feel free to tackle any redlinks! Plus, many of the bluelinks need some serious work! --mervyn (talk) 19:09, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, interesting list. I've made number 66 Sense - National Deafblind and Rubella Association into a redirect, as there was an article with no spaces round the dash in the title! Not sure what the real name of the orgn is, as the Charity Commission has a comma, and the website doesn't use the subtitle at all. Maybe it should now be Sense (charity), with redirects from all the other variants?
I'd added Charity Commission links to a couple of charities previously, and thought a template might be useful, inspired by those for IMDB links; having created it, I thought I should use it, so have now used it on all the As and most of the Bs within the various subcats of Charities based in the United Kingdom, as it seems to enhance the available info. It also means that if the Charity Commission site restructures, we should be able to rescue all the links (editing the Sense page, I found that "Charities Direct" had apparently done just that: the link didn't work, though the unique identifying number was the same for the new link I found!) PamD (talk) 21:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


Hello Pam,

Thank you for pointing this out to me, it is a simple error and one which I have just corrected. Hope to see you around PiTalk - Contribs 23:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Minimum extension for a stub

Hi! I categorized as a stub an article (Yevonde) but apparently it was too long for the standards. I just realized, comparing, that in Wikipedia Spanish we usually consider a "stub" longer articles, even with a few paragraphs. That's why I did it. Thanks for letting me know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lavandin (talkcontribs) 17:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

John Arcand

Yes perhaps in hindsight I agree. It's easy to miss an assertion of notability when it isn't near the beginning of the article. --JD554 (talk) 10:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

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Hello, PamD. You have new messages at Plasticup's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Razor strop

Hi. Awhile back I merged some info into the razor strop article. I never realized that you undid it because I didn't watch the page, but recently a note was left on the strap article because the revert you did points back to the strap article where I removed the razor strap info from. Therefore I want to restore the info that you reverted, because otherwise it doesn't exist anywhere. I didn't want to get into a revert war with you though, so I want to make sure you don't have any pressing reason for keeping it the way it is. Please elaborate more this time instead of just saying "it was better the way it was". Thanks! --Wizard191 (talk) 17:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I came across it when Stub-sorting, as it had been given a stub tag after being changed from being a dab page. I can't remember much about it - I think I felt that the fungus was just as valid a usage as the shaving tool, so that a dab page was still more appropriate but can't quite see now why I didn't put the info back into the "Strap" article: I don't usually delete info. I think the external link looked rather like spam, as it's from a commercial vendor of razors... it still looks a bit marginal. But I don't have any of strop/strap etc on my watch list, and won't get involved in any further debate! Thanks for checking back with me, anyway. PamD (talk) 18:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
To be perfectly honest I didn't look at the link to see if it was commercial or not. The reason I merged the info into the article is because the old strap article was half a dab page and half a real article. So I split it all up to segregate the topics. I figured that I could just put the dab link at the top of the "razor strop" article because the other article that was referenced on the old dab page was a completely different name, therefore would be less likely to searched for. But that's just an assumption. I think I'm going to put it back to the way it was and if anyone has a problem with it they can restore the old page and move the razor info to a new page. Thanks for the input! Wizard191 (talk) 20:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

St James's Hospital

It really is Jimmies, named after two James. I have added the information. Regards Chemical Engineer (talk) 14:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed you'd got the derivation - fascinating, thanks! So now as well as debating whether it's Chancellor Wing, Chancellor's Wing, Chancellors Wing, we ought to be wondering about Jimmy's/ Jimmies/ Jimmies' ! PamD (talk) 16:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

re Alaska Governors

Thank you so much for doing that work, I had a feeling that when I did those right before going to sleep that someone else was going to end up properly disambigging them :( --Golbez (talk) 23:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

How do you feel about mops?

Hello Pam! I was curious to know your feelings about running for adminship. You certainly do outstanding work here, and you have a great amount of articles to show for it. Also, you have an outstanding temperament, and seem to be courteous to both new and established users. Have you had an RfA before? Hope to hear back from you. :) GlassCobra 19:10, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


Hi. Pam apologies about the comments on AfPP, was abit over the top, and ill thought out, yes I could see why you had deleted the material, we have probably spent more time on a scrap of an article discussing it than it would have taken to fix it. ultimately I suppose perhaps I should have looked at it when i found it as it had a feel to it but as it was Late (early hours) and i spent the last hour searching out articles to fill the Harrogate companies list rather than walking away from that one I left it. So really I annoyed with my self. I'll leave charities to you and go back to Sheffield companies and other engineering related articles. As it says someware on here theirs plenty of other articles to worry about, See Ive got a few edits to go to catch you up. ---BulldozerD11 (talk) 19:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

No problem - I just didn't want to be thought of as a deletionist, as I'd removed a large chunk of the article in order to save it (drastic surgery, amputation even, to save its life!). Cheers. PamD (talk) 19:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


Sorry about that, I was scanning for wiki groups that looked inactive and the page history made that page look inactive, no problem, sorry about the confusion. MBisanz talk 18:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

In reply to your message on User_talk:Tohd8BohaithuGh1

However, I thought that anonymous users could not create talk pages, so I thought that I would pre-create them. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Tohd8BohaithuGh1 (talk) 10:18, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

(a) I've just logged out and tried, and it didn't seem to be about to stop me creating a talk page. But (b) if it was intended that anon users shouldn't be able to create talk pages, is it a good idea to circumvent that, without discussing it somewhere as a policy? PamD (talk) 10:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Talk talk:Fitness bootcamp

Ambox warning pn.svg

A tag has been placed on Talk talk:Fitness bootcamp requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, "See also" section, book reference, category tag, template tag, interwiki link, rephrasing of the title, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. TrulyBlue (talk) 14:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I suspect some kind of finger-trouble, trying to create Talk:Fitness bootcamp? regads, TrulyBlue (talk) 14:30, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Trying to follow mal-formed link from someone's mangled merge proposal! PamD (talk) 14:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Monarch's Way

Hi Pam, Ages ago you did some great work on South West Coast Path & I wondered if you would be interested in helping with the Monarch's Way article. I've started using the talk page as a sandbox in the same way you did & any contributions would be great.— Rod talk 22:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Stubs - thanks

Sorry for the confusion, I will review the stub policy so as not to make that error again in the future. Kat Malone (talk) 20:59, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Re: Ripon

Yep! Spotted um straight away. He has a very distinctive editting style that's easy to pick up on now, thankfully. Although I'm annoyed I found only about 50% of today's sockpuppets - he's been a busy boy. Let me know if you spot anything suspect and I'll zap um. He will be back. --Jza84 |  Talk  00:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of The Crossing of Ingo

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An article that you have been involved in editing, The Crossing of Ingo, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Crossing of Ingo. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Schuym1 (talk) 01:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Oxford Wikimania 2010 and Wikimedia UK v2.0 Notice


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We look forward to hearing from you soon, and we send our apologies for this automated intrusion onto your talk page!

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WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - September 2008

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→ This newsletter/release was delivered by ENewsBot · 10:06, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Burnsall edits


Thanks for strengthening of the info. around the little Burnsall article. I, a mere sojourner in these parts, am about to leave the area. I'll be adding some more illus. to the article later. My work on text & illus. for the Hebden piece has moved it from bare stub to article status, I see, which is gratifying.Alethe (talk) 09:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

disambiguation links for AMT stations

Good idea, but a bloody lot of work. Peter Horn 22:16, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

A lot of work, but as I understand it the whole idea of using disambiguations like "(AMT)" is that you then provide access to that title from the title without the disambiguation - just like if you type William Marshall you get access to William Marshall (potter) and all the rest of them. So you'd be doing your articles, and their potential readers, a great service by providing that sort of access! PamD (talk) 22:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic group articles

Hi. In light of the failure to reach consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Afghan British‎ I've suggested that there be a discussion of the various issues raised, here. Your input would be appreciated. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

RE: Yorkshire and The Humber

LOLz. Nah, not POV, I didn't check which candidates were sitting MEPs! Thanks for helping out on that =) doktorb wordsdeeds 18:01, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

  • Actually, you may find a few of those. I spend so long alt+tab'ing between Wiki and the sources that I often forget or am too tired in the eyes to link the sitting MEPs (although if they're already linked in the results boxes I could argue that they don't need to be? Anyway it's done now...). Thanks for doing Y&H, I may get round to doing the others in time doktorb wordsdeeds 03:56, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

So how do I do it correctly?

Regarding dab pages, I mean. I don't want to leave a lot of work to others, if I can avoid it. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 16:26, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

New York

Pam, I have added infoboxes to the 2 settlements, but unsure exactly where the location of New York is from the map, I may have got Summerbridge so can you check and correct as necessary. thanks. Keith D (talk) 18:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Pam, I think we need to disregard comments by user as from a comment on Manchester it is probably from banned user Yorkshirian. I have my suspicions that one or both of the other two editors of the Leeds talk page is also from him. Keith D (talk) 19:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


Thanks PamD. I'm not very good at wikipedia and such. I am going to try and sign this. Tubs uk 15:55 27/09 —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC).


Thanks Pam for correcting layout problem (27 Sept) on Leeds page. 29 September 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Charity Commission template

Is it just me or does the autolink in your UKcharity template no longer work? --mervyn (talk) 16:19, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting this! I think I can see how to fix the template, but would like to check a few more charities to make sure it's consistent before doing so. At least having templated the links, one change to the template ought to fix it - there are still plenty of other links, as I've only worked through the As and Bs so far to add the template to pages. No time to fix right now - real world things to do - but will check it out ASAP. Thanks again, PamD (talk) 16:25, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Aaaaargh! The Charity Commission have (a) made their site so sophisticated that it seems to almost freeze my PC, especially if I have two charities' pages open at once, and (b) broken the simple link from charity number to URL: compare and . I've fixed the template to work for some charities, and have emailed a previous contact who assured me that their new site shouldn't cause problems, to explain the difficulty! Have also added a note at Template talk:UK charity. PamD (talk) 08:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - October 2008

Delivered October 2008 by ENewsBot. If you do not wish to receive the newsletter, please add an * before your username on the Project Mainpage.

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→ This newsletter/release was delivered by ENewsBot · 11:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


Thanks Pam for correcting Title style problem and further suggestions to related style changes on the Ronald Brown (mathematician) entry pages. Bci2 (talk) 11:09, 1 October 2008 (UTC)Bci2

A siginificant number of citations and References are contained in my updated article on Ronald Brown. Please consider the updated text accordingly. Any suggestions on links improvements for inline citations--with a full description of how such inline citations should be exactly implemented-- would be much appreciated. Thank you.Bci1new (talk) 16:07, 1 October 2008 (UTC)Bci1new

I've already left a message on your talk page to explain how to add inline citations. PamD (talk) 16:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I cannot find any clear instructions; on my preferences there are none of the menu items that you mentioned; thus, I could not use your instructions

at all. Hope you can provide something easier that really works. Cheers, hope it' s not too gloomy in Leeds as it was when I was there!Bci1new (talk) 16:30, 1 October 2008 (UTC)Bci1new

If you click on "My preferences", is the right-hand tab not "Gadgets", after "Misc"? (It's difficult to know how much of what I see depends on settings I've previously opted for).PamD (talk) 17:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, the Preferences page seems to look quite different now==before it was completely empty==: I had no choices whatsoever before, even the Misc did not show up , and there are definitely no "Gadgets" that you suggested--a very big difference indeed. Thank you for updating the info, but inline linking does not seem to work as well with web links, as doi is not always avaliable but URLs are why ? If you'd not mind helping please show me a simple example of the code for a paper inline link using a web url that works as claimed. Second question, what can one do to avoid overlinking? Any really good suggestions? Hope it doesn't rain in Leeds again? Cheers, Bci2 (talk)Bci2 —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC).
For info about citation templates, see here - you can copy and paste the relevant one and fill in the fields you've got (empty fields don't cause any problem). On overlinking - only link once per section to any one article, and don't link from within references, for a start. Hope that helps. Oh, and when adding things to talk pages, please (a) add it to the relevant section of discussion, not the bottom of the page, (b) indent your answer using ":" repeated as often as needed, and (c) sign using four tildes or the signature button, which gives both name and date. Thanks, PamD (talk) 06:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear

I'm messing this template for deletion thingy up completely. Er, HALP plsthnx? doktorb wordsdeeds 17:48, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Amber Rives

Hi,the Amber Rives article I had was slightly altered from one on the Simple English Wikipedia page of her [4] however I can see why it was deleted as it was not different enough.But the image was not copyrighted because all have to come from Wikipedia Commons?Also I could not write an article on Amber Rives as it is blocked so I had to add the disambiguation.Do you know why there is not an article on her yet?Thank you.--Usher4Life (talk) 19:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the history of the article it seems that the title "Amber Rives" has been "protected" to prevent its re-creation because, according to User:Gogo Dodo it was being repeatedly re-created with no reliable sources to show notability. Creating it with an unnecessary "Disambiguation" to get round that protection is not allowed. You need to find independent professionally published sources to show she is notable. I'm not sure how you then set about getting the page protection lifted - you could ask Gogo Dozo. PamD (talk) 22:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

WPYorks Front page

Thanks for the fix. I just couldn't "spot the difference".--Harkey (talk) 15:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


Hi Pam, hope you do not mind the changes I have made to Leeds while copy-editing for the DVD there were a couple of controversial changes but not too much. I was wondering if I could enlist your help, as you appear to to familiar with the area. I have added a couple of dated tags and some dead link tags to the article and wondered if you know any recent details for these or where the information can be found. There is also a minor problem over Stanningley SARLC or Stanningley ARLFC is it the same thing or 2 different clubs?

On the structure the major problem is repetition of information, I was wondering if it would be possible to kill the events section as most of this appears lower down in the article. Any thoughts? Keith D (talk) 11:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)


Nope, I'm taking a break for a few minutes due to going cross-eyed :D roux ] [x] was prince of canada 15:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Earl Brian

Pam, if you want to delete Earl Brian, go ahead. The point is: Earl Brian is significant enough in U.S. history that there should be a Wikipedia article on him. I do not have the time right now to write one. Deleting that small amount of background material for anyone who links into Earl Brian from Inslaw,Danny Casolaro, the October Surprise conspiracy, or Michael Riconosciuto serves little purpose other than to make a statement. Hag2 (talk) 12:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Hag2: I wasn't wanting to make any "statement" about the man as I'd never heard of him before coming across the article as a stub for sorting. The article just seemed a total mess, and inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Can't you find time for even a couple of sentences of coherent text? PamD (talk) 12:57, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Pam. Do you think that a short paragraph will be sufficient? I suppose I could find time to summarize a brief background history. Also, why not move this discussion onto the Talkpage for me while I write a paragraph, or two. I'll have something for you by tomorrow morning. See if you can move this discussion (with a "cut and paste") onto the talkpage by then so it doesn't clutter your talkpage. How's that for a solution? It shows two things: a willingness to improve Earl Brian, and a desire to open meaningful discussion on a developing article. Hag2 (talk) 13:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Belvoir (plantation)

thanks for the comments, i was just filling in a red link, at the Byran and Sally Fairfax pages it was capitalized half the time. a cut and paste from govt website seem like a a stub to me, but i will take your upgrade to start :} Pohick2 (talk) 14:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


Hi Pam, hope you do not mind but I axed the population figures again in the infobox as it is not really the place for talking about the metro area and not done in similar articles such as Bradford. The result is very confusing as the lower figure is from the 2001 census and the other figure is a mid-2007 estimate. The UK place infoboxes generally go with the 2001 census figure while the ones for local authorities go with the 2007 figure, but in this case they are for different areas. The text details the 2 figures and that should be sufficient, it also gives some clarification of the figures which the infobox does not. I know that several people are trying to change it and massage the figures, they have even tried changing the list articles to inflate Leeds above Liverpool. Keith D (talk) 11:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Keith, I suppose my view was that a clearly annotated figure to show what the larger figure is was preferable to constant additions of unannotated info! And as we've seen, it is a permanently ongoing struggle against those who (a) want to glorify the city in any way and at all costs, and/or (b) don't want to recognise any distinction between the city and the City (met district). I thought that leaving the two figures might be the lesser of two evils! PamD (talk) 13:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Well done on colliery links

Just thought that I would thank you for your work on the Yorkshire collieries article. It is good to see more colliery-village links. I have added a few more myself so that it seems complete now.

There is just one of your alterations that I have changed. Ferrymoor pit was indeed in Grimethorpe, but it closed in 1973 and merged with Riddings pit in South Kirkby, becoming known as Ferrymoor-Riddings henceforth. The list is only for 1984-onwards, so South Kirkby ought to be shown as the location. I understand why you wrote down Grimethorpe though, as the list said just "Ferrymoor" rather than "Ferrymoor-Riddings". this is a useful place to check pit locations.

Regards, Ed. Epa101 (talk) 10:57, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank You for your help

thank you for your help with Pine Ridge Job Corps article I've been having trouble finding good web sites with information about Pine Ridge any more help would be greatly appricated. Neon5162 (talk) 16:53, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Also thank you for understanding the delicate position for Don Talbot FoolesTroupe (talk) 06:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


Hi Pam, thanks for that. The section you're after is at Wikipedia:WikiProject Geographical coordinates#Precision. I'll take a look at the how-to page & add a pointer. That said, we are nervous about providing too much information, since many people seem to find geocoding scary. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:16, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Steve Croft (priest) article

Thanks for your comments on my first shot at a Wiki article. I'm certainly open to advice.

I included the {priest) qualifier in the title as there is a Steve Croft article referring to the cricketer, which has been merged into Steven Croft with a redirect, but there were quite a few articles still linking to Steve Croft. I assumed using a new title was better, otherwise a number of cricket articles would end up pointing to the priest.

I used Steve rather than Steven as a Google check of Rev "Steve Croft" outnumbered Rev "Steven Croft" by about 2-1 and every time I have heard him referred to in conversation (including captions on interviews) has used Steve. The legal announcement of new church appointments, which is reflected in some of the sources, always use the full legal name but here for instance there are a mix of Stevens and Steves.

I do plan to add the ISBNs for the books, but it might be a while before I get the chance to look them all up (unless someone beats me to it). ChapterandVerse (talk) 15:04, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Because Steve Croft has a history (having previously been used for the duplicate article on the cricketer), we can't just do an instant "Move", but I've done the official process of "Request Move", so it should be moved by an administrator in a few days. There will then be a redirect from "Steve Croft (priest)". For the moment, I'll point the redirect from "Steve Croft" to point this way. PamD (talk) 19:03, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, ChapterandVerse (talk) 22:33, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Garden Growing

"Hortuculture" is probably just a misspelling. I didn't look it up. I just recall that hortu is the Latin for garden, and spelled the English cognate accordingly. I'll go fix it. Jay L09 (talk) 18:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


Thank you, PamD. The problem here was that I for one tend to consider many "poetry collection" articles to be clutter in between the poet article and the articles (potential, in this case) on the poems themselves. In Macedonski's case there is a special problem, since he published and republished some, but not all of his poems in various books, and only some of those poems are notable enough to have articles. That's why, if it were after me, I wouldn't have created the article at all (or I would have created it last).

In any case, I'll keep that naming convention in mind for future reference - it is the first time I had to use it. Dahn (talk) 18:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - November 2008

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→ This newsletter/release was delivered by ENewsBot · 06:15, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


Sorry about those. I'm never sure when to use contractions and when to not because the Manual of Style says that they should be avoided but then sometimes contractions are acceptable. Are there any specific situations that I should not correct beside quotes? Thanks for your help! RPlunk2853 (talk) 20:02, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the Manual of Style only applies to the main namespace, the actual encyclopedia articles, not to all the apparatus of guidelines and policies etc which are written for editors (the "Wikipedia:filename" stuff, or "Project namespace"). I don't know that there's chapter and verse to say so, but I've found enough examples to convince me that it's normal to use friendly, slightly informal, language in those pages, of a kind which wouldn't be appropriate in the Encyclopedia itself. So "Don't worry, it's simple" is fine in a "WP:..." page, while neither "don't" nor "it's" would be appropriate in an article. There's plenty of work needing to be done in purging the main articles of terrible grammar and style, which might be more constructive than removing friendly informalities from the stuff written for editors! (Me, I fight a campaign against "could of" for "could have", using a Google search and AWB.) Good luck with your editing, PamD (talk) 23:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC) (Now logging out again and returning to my WikiBreak!)

Thanks A Lot

Thanks for improving the Wilbur O. Hedrick page and such. I volunteer my time for the MSU SHC for about two hours a week. I do not really have a lot of time to do fine touches and now that you did this I have a good base to work from for other articles. My boss also loves that other people are putting some effort into the history of the MSU SHC, so it's very much appreciated to see such improvements made, especially by one so practiced as yourself. --IamaMuncho (talk) 15:39, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK v2.0

Hello! Thanks for showing an interest in Wikimedia UK v2.0. Formation of the company is currently underway under the official name "Wiki UK Limited", and we are hoping to start accepting membership in the near future. We have been drawing up a set of membership guidelines, determining what membership levels we'll have (we plan on starting off with just standard Membership, formerly known as Guarantor Membership, with supporting membership / friends scheme coming later), who can apply for membership (everyone), what information we'll collect on the application form, why applications may be rejected, and data retention. Your input on all of this would be appreciated. We're especially after the community's thoughts on what the membership fee should be. Please leave a message on the talk page with your thoughts.

Also, we're currently setting up a monthly newsletter to keep everyone informed about the to-be-Chapter's progress. If you would like to receive this newsletter, please put your username down on this page.

Thanks again. Mike Peel (talk) 19:55, 8 November 2008 (UTC) (Membership Secretary, Wikimedia UK [Proposed])

Mount Eagle (plantation)

thanks for the disambiguation, i was just filling a red link and was not aware of the other links. Pohick2 (talk) 22:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Cornwall article / Trevose Head

Hi Pam, thanks for promptly correcting the 'stub' to 'Cornwall-geo-stub' on Trevose Head. Are you particularly interested in Cornwall geo articles per se or just as part of your long-distance paths project? Andy F (talk) 17:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Andy, Neither really - I just sort stubs as part of WP:WSS, and picked this one out as I recognised the name. It's a fascinating jigsaw-puzzle sort of challenge, finding an appropriate stub category for all the very random articles which turn up in Category:Stubs, and sometimes doing the odd bit of copy-editing, improving, tagging etc on the way! PamD (talk) 18:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, Pam. Pleased to meet you. Do feel free to look over any of my contributions Special:Contributions/Andy_F and copy-edit and tag or categorise as you see fit.Andy F (talk) 19:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I've just noticed that my previous comment seems to have messed-up your page layout - sorry! You can reply to my talk page (or email me) regarding the coast path article or Cornwall articles. Andy F (talk) 21:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your integrity

I found your comments to hag2 on Earl Brian's page. This person is one of several who have been systematically altering pages connected to Inslaw in favor of those who wish to discredit the witnesses and divert attention generated by recent media interest in the intelligence activities and murders around Cabazon. She has accused witness Michael Riconosciuto of a number of murders, it was reverted but the systematic character assassination is still going on. Altered pages include: Earl Brian Danny Casolaro Michael Riconosciuto Inslaw Supporting references are being made to a book titled Return of the Buffalo by Ambrose Lane. It is worth noting that the author was paid to write the book. The book is a biography of John P. Nichols, who served a prison sentence for solicitation of murder, he w as arrested because of the efforts of Michael Riconosciuto. A major series by kesq has generated an onslaught of effort to discredit allegations of illegal activities by law enforcement and intellgence agencies. The last several parts of the series have mentioned Michael Riconosciuto several times. A document archive has been set up at to counter disinformation. This was done in order to cut through speculation and present evidence, it seems inappropriate to have to use wikipedia to conduct an evidenciary hearing full of speculation and character assassination. Winksatfriend (talk) 21:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Wiki UK Ltd Membership applications now invited!


It gives me great pleasure to announce that Wiki UK Limited is now inviting membership applications! You can download the application form in PDF format from meta:Image:Wiki_UK_Ltd_membership_application_form.pdf

Information is given on the form about membership fees (£12/year standard, £6 for concessions); these need to be paid by cheque initially, although we hope to accept other forms of payment in the future. Applications should be submitted to me at the address given on the form. If you have any queries about the application process, please let me know.

We will formally start accepting members once we have a bank account, as we cannot process membership fees until that time. We will be submitting our application for a bank account in the very near future, and we hope to have this set up by the end of December at the latest.

Thank you for your support so far; I look forward to receiving your membership application.

Mike Peel (talk) 21:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Membership Secretary, Wiki UK Limited

P.S. if you haven't already, please subscribe to our newsletter! See meta:Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Newsletter for more information and to subscribe.

Wiki UK Limited is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. The Registered Office is at 23 Cartwright Way, Nottingham, NG9 1RL.

Bragg's Mill, Ashdon

Hi, any particular reason you moved the coordinates to display as title rather than inline? I feel the Grid ref and co-ordinates look better displayed together. I don't know how to display a grid ref in the same manner as the coordinates when the latter are set as title. Mjroots (talk) 14:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know it's standard practice to display the coords separately (see Buckingham Palace as an example, a featured article), and I think they look a bit clunky in the text. I'm not sure that grid ref is necessary as well as coords: it's not commonly used in WP articles and the coords link to OS get-a-map as well as other systems. Even for mountains (eg Ben Nevis) the OS grid ref isn't given. For UK settlements it's included in the {{infobox UK place}} but not elsewhere in the article - see featured article Wormshill. PamD (talk) 14:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks (also)

I seem to be following a theme here, but thanks for cleaning up my attempt at starting an article on Nechama Tec. Cheers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:30, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguous Helsing (disambiguation)

Information icon.svg

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Helsing (disambiguation), by another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Helsing (disambiguation) is a disambiguation page that only points to a single article, or no articles at all.

To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Helsing (disambiguation), please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. To see the user who deleted the page, click here CSDWarnBot (talk) 19:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Re:AfD for Jeremy Speaks

Thanks for that - I did start to add the AfD notice, but for some reason didn't save it (I was in a rush earlier on today - trying to catch up on things after coming back from my three-day break... I'd forgotten to remove that note from my talk page too - thanks for reminding me!) Grutness...wha? 05:12, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

List of United Kingdom disasters by death toll

Item moved here from my User page, where it had been put by accident. PamD (talk) 16:42, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Pam! Could you please take a look at the talk page, specifically [This section on the Bibighar Massacre]. Your insight would be most useful. I feel a potential edit war is looming from User:Rsloch, who is on the verge of a WP:3RR violation. Richard Harvey (talk) 11:11, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I think on balance it looks more like an act of war, therefore excluded from the list, but it's not an article I've had dealings with as far as I can remember, nor am I an expert on Indian history! Good luck in efforts to resolve your differences. There may be military historians who could help define "act of war", or give an opinion on whether this is one, if you ask over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history. PamD (talk) 16:37, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I cited you - hope it's OK with you

Cite is here: Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation#Error on this page - linking to redirects. --AndrewHowse (talk) 02:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

That's fine - though the actual guideline itself is the stronger argument, rather than my "I think [it's] preferable...". Fortunately the editor involved seems to be a minority of one on this topic and has given up the debate for now. PamD (talk) 08:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - December 2008

Delivered December 2008 by ENewsBot. If you do not wish to receive the newsletter, please add an * before your username on the Project Mainpage.

→ Please direct all enquiries to the WikiProject talk page.
→ This newsletter/release was delivered by ENewsBot · 00:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Could it be a Stub?

The Thanksgiving article is really short. Do you think it's a stub?--Owl 2 (talk) 19:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Pandemic (South Park)

How exactly it is not a stub? And by the way, I cannot help because of the "Wikipedia vultures" just lurking to annul any valid contribution and shorten the articles to stubs. NotAnotherAliGFan (talk) 07:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Garret Middle School

Hi. Thanks for contributing to the above article. I am requesting that you add more information to it, as I cannot access any more information. Thanks. --Marshall T. Williams (talk) 22:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Re: December's Keep

Re your message: I think the spirit of A9 applies. While it is not an actual recording, the song is meant to be performed and possibly recorded. The notability of the song is not inherited because it is based upon a Chopin piece. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 09:09, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Well it looks to me as if A9 is very specifically about recordings, which are much more ephemeral than compositions. It does say "A9 does not apply to other forms of creative media, products, or any other types of articles." PamD (talk) 09:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
How about a compromise? I'll restore the article and move it to your user space so that you can work on establishing its notability separate from its relation to the Chopin piece? -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 05:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd prefer to see it just reinstated as an article. WP:MUSIC says "Important note: Failing to satisfy the notability guidelines is not a criterion for speedy deletion. ". I only came across this article while stub-sorting, and it was on my watchlist because I moved it: I seem to remember it was the first contribution of a new editor, and it seems harsh to speedy it on inappropriate grounds. Give them a chance to improve it - PROD or AfD if you must - but it shouldn't have been speedied. PamD (talk) 07:50, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
An AfD was started and then it was subsequently tagged for CSD. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 08:22, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I still reckon CSD was wrong, but having confirmed that the original author was notifed of the AfD at [[5]] on 1 Dec, I'm happy to let it go. I was just concerned that it seemed to have been Speedied under an inappropriate use of A9 which is specifically for recordings, not other musical items! PamD (talk) 08:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I understand. =) Sorry about going back and forth so much about this. Interestingly, the songwriter had an article about him at Greg Gilpin, which was also speedied back in September. There wasn't much in that article. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 08:40, 7 December 2008 (UTC)



Wondering why you posted the uncited tag on Nakkirar. I did create it with sources. Pls reply on my talk. Cheers, ShivNarayanan (talk) 03:02, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Not me! I Stub-sorted it, but the "Unreferenced" tag was added by User:Quality check! PamD (talk) 07:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


Hello, you recently helped me tidy my links for the Julie Rivkin article, and I am eternally grateful. However, I am not entirely sure how to make more than one reference for the same source the way that you did, and I was wondering if you could help me out if you ever have free time. If you want to see how horrible I am with references, please take a look at my Ode on Indolence article and see the horror:) thanks again Mrathel (talk) 00:29, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Look carefully and you can probably see: the trick is to give the ref a name (such as "fred"), and then on one occasion have the opening ref tag as <ref name=fred>. Then next time, just put <ref name=fred />. As long as the name doesn't have any spaces etc you don't need to put quote marks round it. Have a go! Good luck! PamD (talk) 00:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

same to you

As long as we're being rude and inhumane here, let me return the favor. Last time i was editing articles, stub notices went at the TOP. I still see plenty of articles with stubs at the TOP. so i placed a stub notice at the.. TOP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 01:06, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Stub#How_to_mark_an_article_as_a_stub, and please stay civil. PamD (talk) 07:53, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing my bad stubs

... I knew it didn't look right to have stub tags in subsections (in Pension) but I wasn't sure what the right thing was. I figured it was better to at least have that and correct it later than to leave it out. So thanks for showing me the right way to do it.

Dhollm (talk) 14:17, 25 December 2008 (UTC) and happy holidays


whoops - I missed the existing "stub" tag! Sorry - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Civil parish

Thanks for your note on my Talk page. I must admit I was in two minds whether to link to civil parish or not. In the end I decided the term was fairly well understood, and that it would be creating unnecessary links, but I really don't have a strong feeling either way. There seems to be no clear pattern on English sites - some are linked, some aren't (consistency never being Wikipedia's strong point!). I actually came to the Otley site whilst updating the List of civil parishes in West Yorkshire page, so that may well have influenced my opinion. If you think it would be better linked, feel free to do so.Skinsmoke (talk) 13:41, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

re: Crystal Voyager

hi PamD

Sorry about that confusion -- pure lack of thought on my part. I wrote up the Crystal Voyager article without doing a search first, then discovered the existing stub article after I'd finished. Sorry - blame it on the New Year hangover!

Should I move the new article to the existing page? Let me know.

Happy 2009!

Dunks (talk) 01:22, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Dunks58, and a Happy New Year to you too. It might be simplest if you just cut and paste your new material to add to the pre-existing stub article, tidying up as necessary, and empty the disambiguated title to leave it as a redirect - as you're the only editor who's contributed anything substantial, I think that's allowed! We can't just Move it to the other title, as there's too much edit history so it would have to go through Requested Moves which seems like overkill. I'll leave it to you to sort it out. In case you don't know how to access the previous version, it's here. Cheers. PamD (talk) 09:07, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - January 2009

Delivered January 2009 by ENewsBot. If you do not wish to receive the newsletter, please add an * before your username on the Project Mainpage.

→ Please direct all enquiries to the WikiProject talk page.
→ This newsletter/release was delivered by ENewsBot · 11:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)