User talk:Penyulap/Museum of Yap and Waffle/2012

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Your contributed article, International Space Station/NoJava[edit]

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Hello, I notice that you recently created a new page, International Space Station/NoJava. First, thank you for your contribution; Wikipedia relies solely on the efforts of volunteers such as yourself. Unfortunately, the page you created covers a topic on which we already have a page - International Space Station. Because of the duplication, your article has been tagged for speedy deletion. Please note that this is not a comment on you personally and we hope you will continue helping to improve Wikipedia. If the topic of the article you created is one that interests you, then perhaps you would like to help out at International Space Station - you might like to discuss new information at the article's talk page.

If you think that the article you created should remain separate, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Additionally if you would like to have someone review articles you create before they go live so they are not nominated for deletion shortly after you post them, allow me to suggest the article creation process and using our search feature to find related information we already have in the encyclopedia. Try not to be discouraged. Wikipedia looks forward to your future contributions. Ankit Maity Talkcontribs 09:43, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Hello ankit Maity, and thank you for your comment, It's explained here please feel free to comment further. Penyulap talk 09:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

International Space Station/ISS No Scroll and International Space Station/NoJava[edit]

Hi Penyulap, can you explain what these two articles are meant to do? The NoJava version seems to be a content fork of International Space Station. Are you trying to create some version of the article for use on mobile devices? This just doesn't seem like a good way to go about things. Best, Sparthorse (talk) 09:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Sparthorse, it's mostly for discussion actually, although it looks like a good idea to me, I think whilst the speedy deletion template is on there I'll re-edit the article so members of the public can't see the link. Penyulap talk 09:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Okay, thanks, I see what you are trying to achieve. But having a separate version of the article with identical content just isn't a good idea. The two versions will quickly diverge (editors now have to make identical changes to two different articles), and you've removed the page history from the NoJava version of the article which violates Wikipedia's license. If you want to propose a different way to handle scrolling, you should do that at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) rather than forking articles like this. Best, Sparthorse (talk) 09:57, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
You're no doubt correct, I worried first it would put the new article into many categories it's not meant to be in, anyhow it's mostly for discussion really. It does somewhat look the part, the edit links goto the correct place in the real article I think. Penyulap talk 10:03, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
I'll take it to the pump now, and blank the page I don't need. Penyulap talk 10:05, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Hmm, they are both gone, well that'll make it difficult. Penyulap talk 10:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
You could create example articles easily enough that demonstrated the effect. Do that in your userspace (e.g. at User:Penyulap/example and User:Penyulap/example/NoJava) and then start the discussion at the Village Pump? You probably shouldn't use the ISS article content as that will have licensing issues, but creating a simple dummy article should be easy enough. Sparthorse (talk) 10:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, there are no non-free images, if that's a concern (I maintain the article, it's all I edit really) are there other concerns on licensing ? Penyulap talk 10:14, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
The problem is, all Wikipedia contributions have to be attributed, per the CC-BY-SA license. If you copy the contents of the International Space Station then you haven't attributed the original authors. That includes you, but it also includes other editors. The way Wikipedia does this is by maintaining the article history which lists every author who has contributed. If you just copy and paste the article elsewhere, this history is lost and the license is violated. I would have thought you could create a very short article that demonstrates your scrolling fix. It doesn't have to be the ISS article content. Sparthorse (talk) 10:19, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Well looks like back to the drawing board then, that is, into the too hard for me basket, as I'm not familiar (and don't want to be) with the languages and programming of wiki, as far as copying the history or getting wiki to detect the browsers java capability. But I may as well suggest it somewhere or other. Maybe it's of use to someone. Who knows. Penyulap talk 10:24, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
No problem here, just do a null edit and write in edit summery "(the content is) from International Space Station article" or something like that (bots always do that when they want to move a cat., see this edit summery), or alternatively link to its history page. --Z 11:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Thank you that's GENIUS. And SUCH a big help. Penyulap talk 13:12, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of International Space Station/NoJava[edit]

A tag has been placed on International Space Station/NoJava, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done for the following reason:

under CSD A10. The duplicated article is International Space Sation. Furthermore, the user who created this article claimed that he wants to mirror the duplicated article, so he has done this.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Wikipedia criteria may be deleted at any time.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Ankit Maity Talkcontribs 15:04, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Talk:International Space Station/NoJava[edit]

Per Smartse I am just asking that do you still need the page as the article is deleted, I listed it for CSD G8 but he didn't delete the page because of your consent. If you want to delete the page then list it for CSD G7.--Ankit Maity Talkcontribs 17:13, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification[edit]

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You asked on my talk page to reply here: the blacklist is described at WP:BLACKLIST. In the case in question, the list applicable is at meta:Spam blacklist. If you attempt to add the link (for example, here), you will find that the "save" will not work, and a message is displayed. That's not relevant to what we discussed at Talk:Harry Houdini. Johnuniq (talk) 22:03, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, the URL that you removed when you said "clear copyvio" is I can't find any part of that on any blacklist that you mentioned. So why was that a 'copyvio' ? Penyulap talk 22:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
I won't continue replying here, but in brief: a copyvio is when stuff is copied from an external source into an article; often material on the Internet is on multiple websites which have copied each other; evidence suggesting a copyvio here is when an edit inserts text that is already on some other external site (which might not have been the one used by the editor); all copyvios have to be reverted. My comment on the article talk page about the blacklist was simply an explanation as to why the URL which I showed was not given as a clickable link: the URL I mentioned is on the blacklist (but that has nothing to do with copyvios). Johnuniq (talk) 08:40, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Well my take on this seems correct then, I had a proper source for the information, summarized it properly, didn't even come close to the 10% of the magazine article in front of me which is the general thinking on copyright, and a backup URL I gave was no problem. I think you had better read up and find out how these things work first in future, because a 'blacklist' site manager can obviously copy anything he/she wants onto their site as they please, including otherwise accurate info from other sites. Just because you find it there doesn't make the original information unusable or invalid. Seriously, this is such a nobrainer I'm not even quoting policy, there is no need, it's commonsense. Clearly if it were not so, a blacklist site could be established, and mirror wikipedia, thereby causing all of wiki to be in violation. Penyulap talk 09:04, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

OPSEK and TG3 in lead of ISS article[edit]

Mention of these other modular stations, one of which does not exist, does not belong in the lead paragraph of the ISS article. Indeed, they should only be mentioned in passing somewhere near the end of the lead section. It would be best to work to improve the way they are presented in the space station article. That's where readers go to get information about stations other than ISS! (sdsds - talk) 07:56, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Well the CSS has orbital testbed hardware, so it's hardly 'just talk' it's in progress. OPSEK simply IS in orbit right now, one of it's docking mods, and MIR was in orbit. Generally speaking proposals with no hardware, especially no hardware in orbit, don't get much of a mention in the article, however there are exceptions for well developed things, other examples are the vasmir engine. Can you tell me why you feel it detracts from the article, because I am happy to listen to alternate thinking, you wouldn't even need to find someone else as a third if you convince me, because at the moment, the lede has context, and needs any reason why it shouldn't have it. Penyulap talk 08:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you![edit]

Editors Barnstar Hires.png The Editor's Barnstar
Nice work on the intro on the Stop Online Piracy Act page, it makes it much more accessible. Sloggerbum (talk) 21:08, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Why thank you, I LOVE SHINY THINGS !!!!! WooHoo !!!!! Penyulap talk 21:15, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Well done[edit]

Hey Penyulap, even though you are "semi-retired" I see you've been busy on Talk:Stop Online Piracy Act. It seems that you've been voluntarily injecting yourself into a very heating subject, and I felt that I should commend you on your neutrality, article improvements, and general responses. SOPA got nearly two million views on Wednesday, and there's been so much discussion on the Talk page that its like 200 kilobytes despite the heavy application of MiszaBot. I see so many random IPs posting this like "this article is so ridiculously biased, Wikipedia's being stupid about the whole thing" and I appreciate you trying to take care of things in a very constructive way. That's all. Hope you don't get too emotionally affected by all the flak. Keep up the good work! Jessemv (talk) 23:51, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

thank you for your kind words, they mean a great deal to me, my biggest stress is being shot to death at ANI, you just never know when someone will pull out diffs and edits like playing with a scrabble set and string up a 'you suck' sentence, and the demagogues at ANI will burn you without a seconds thought. If you do have a little bit of time at all I have some proposal at the Mos talkpage where all I get is the opposite, slow glacial silence, but stay away from the ISS talkpage, the conversation about eng:var has dragged on for many years, and I haven't even been here for one. Mind you, I am not looking for agreement at all, I don't want any favors, but the silence can be as bad as the ruckus of SOPA (and now megaupload, omg), and a comment by anyone even by snail mail or 300 baud acoustic modem annually would be nice. Penyulap talk 00:04, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Oh, and so far poor little Miszabot has stayed away from the page, I think I need to tinker with the code, maybe, what I really need to do is pop it into my sandbox for cut'n'paste, as I set it up on Chinese space station, CCM and LCM, and a bunch of other places, and then forget each time. Penyulap talk 00:12, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Also, after review of this Talk page, I also feel that you do an exception job about dealing with the opinions and whatnot of other editors who feel you have wronged them in some way. As a non-admin, I'm not too familiar with ANI, but I really do wish you the best of luck there. I truly hope no one makes wild accusations. Can non-admins comment/help? Anyway, I had a quick look at the MOS talk page. It's been my experience that feedback is inversely proportional to the length of the proposal, with the exception of government where too often people support something without reading the entire document. :D But I'll study your idea and see if I can voice my thoughts about it. MOS has been very helpful in guiding me in my improvements to Folding@home. Best, Jessemv (talk) 00:19, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok. I'm not sure what you mean there, but doesn't it say "Threads older than 5 days may be archived by MiszaBot I."? -(Jessemv)
Why thank you too. Yes, sometimes a twitter-sized proposal is all that will ever get passed, and something that absolutely requires something about 3 times as much real estate goes overlooked. It is far too verbose, and I'll look at ways to make a summary of the proposal. Penyulap talk 00:26, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Don't worry about MiszaBot, I can handle the archiving, I was mostly grumbling about my poor memory, that's all. As for WP:ANI anyone can have a say as they please. That's pretty much the problem, it's mob mentality and tyranny of the masses, it's just not possible to fully embody Wikipedia's charter in that way. Penyulap talk 00:26, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm hoping that I won't regret this decision later, but if you get into some sort of craziness at ANI feel free to drop me a line and if I have some time I'll look things over a bit and put out my thoughts. Having never participated at ANI but read through it on multiple occasions, I'm not sure how much of an impact my opinions will be, so it's your call. Jessemv (talk) 00:56, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, I appreciate your solidarity, however, in the end I do truly believe the poor structuring of Wikipedia simply leaves it up to chance. It's pure chance as to whether I stay or am thrown out, on the flip side, I'd very much like to get a 'real life' back and find a permanent cure to the Wiki-fever. It would be just the medicine. (I edit on more than 20 language Wikipedias, mostly English though, but when banned, it would be from the lot, even though I have never had, and never will have any trouble on any other language Wikipedia, but enough about my demise as an editor, and Wikipedia's inevitable marginalization too.) Just have some fun ! Penyulap talk 01:09, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Come now, they can't just be flipping coins and then making their decisions from that! Perhaps keeping your responses concise, particularly in heated environments, will increase your chances of ANI survival simply because those who read the dispute over can quickly understand your points. Wading through long, drawn-out, roundabout replies is always a bit irritating, at least to me. Jessemv (talk) 01:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
People can and very often do, weigh in with opinions and actions without examining the issues at hand at all. But it's as bad as any mob ruled courtroom. demagogue is something to read and keep in mind. I should make an example template to show what I mean, to help illustrate and discuss the behavior. Penyulap talk 01:38, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

re: wp: lede[edit]

I added a reference there because I didn't have time to thoroughly study the article and work it in elsewhere. If the line I changed reflects content elsewhere, then it would be a nightmare to go hashing it up and fighting off people who disagree with my changes. I made a near indisputable change (a sentence of which the intrinsic grammar was violated) to fix one sure thing that revealed bias that couldn't be questioned. My one reference is a suggestion that that type of error that exists in the rest of the article be addressed. Feel free to work it in elsewhere and remove the link, however, if no one's inserted a similar reference (standing FBI policy on copyright infringement), I strongly suggest it remain there as an example of work that needs to be done. It's a much better tentative than nothing at all. My change, IMO, addresses a major point that opponents of the bill fail to address. Squish7 (talk) 01:29, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

It's all good, no problems, I find the very fast way to add stuff is exactly what you did with a little twist, just use the Table of contents to figure where the info you want might go, (even add a new section if you please) and shove it in there. It's going to stay there a lot longer because in the lead people will just use it as a miniature article and cut out the whole lot, at least further down a few editors will read what you add, and then protect the summary in the lead. I can't say as it takes much longer time-wise to do it that way, but it certainly lasts longer. On the ISS article, I found I could work for months chopping changing rewriting the body of the article as I pleased, it was only the lead that people tried so vehemently to exert ownership over. Once it's in the body though, you have some leverage to keeping it in the lead and slowing down the twitter-editors. Penyulap talk 01:38, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm not completely sure what you're getting at. You mean if I have a dispute with the article's neutrality, I have to research and support it in the body in order to have the truth reflected in the lede? I might agree if I wasn't referencing a fact known by just about every person on Earth who's ever watched a recorded show or film. How can the lede contradict 100%-known facts? Squish7 (talk) 03:39, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Now I'm unsure which fact you refer to. which is it ? Penyulap talk 03:46, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
You reverted my edit twice demoting the "imposition" of a 5-year prison sentence. The sentence already exists as is stated in every single "FBI Warning" you've ever seen at the start of a recorded copyrighted film or television broadcast. If your lede contradicts a beyond-widely known fact, and does in fact represent the average tone of the article, then that sentence proves the whole article to violate NPOV and COI. Squish7 (talk) 03:56, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok, now we are on the same page, sorry, I drifted off. Yes it is a crime, yes it says it on VCR tapes and DVD's, yes yes yes. Now the thing is the new bill doesn't effect that at all, that part stays the same. what it does effect as far as I can tell on a reading of the pages linked to about that part is that the new law makes other things a crime as well. It 'expands' the coverage of the law from simply DVD's and VCR tapes to streaming content over the web. So there is already the crime that you, I, and everyone knows of, and there is the proposed new law to expand that law to cover new things. Apparently some people worry a youtube style video of their kids singing a song would land them in jail. And I tell you having heard the fighting over royalties i think it was for jingle bells or happy birthday or something, there are people out there who would indeed sue. There are some real horror stories. Penyulap talk 04:04, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Firstly, might I suggest you use "affect" (verb) rather than "effect" (noun) when using it as you have. It's a subtle difference, but important for an editor.
My point is it's clarifying, remolding, reinforcing, reformulating, and/or reestablishing. All these words would do. It's not just illegal to copy video tapes, it's just plain strictly illegal to broadcast copyrighted material. It's just plain copyright law. Some of the FBI warnings even specify that strictly. It's just plain 100% illegal. Suggesting that it's legal by stating that the bill would make it illegal is just plain misinformation. I really don't think I should have to go research and campaign to get something so blatantly nonfactual off of a place that's supposed to uphold objectivity, neutrality, and fact. (talk) 09:34, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
You're quite right about my grammar, I gave up my intention to learn any more English then I already know long ago, in preference for learning and improving my alternative language skills, which I find more useful. They open up new worlds and broaden horizons, plus, it's easy to learn ! anyhow, the lawyer types in the references were using the word expand, and I'm quite sure they are picky with their words, much more than we are, and have different ideas about each word they use, so I figured on going with their jargon on that one, to preserve the idea they were getting across. Penyulap talk 09:47, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Here, standard warning, my emphasis in bold:
Federal law provides severe civil and criminal penalties for the unauthorized reproduction, distribution, or exhibition of copyrighted motion pictures, video tapes, or video discs. Criminal copyright infringement is investigated by the FBI and may constitute a felony with a maximum penalty of up to five years in prison and/or a $250,000 fine.
I'm not talking about something that 90% of people agree is a fact. I'm talking about 99.99%. You just can't blatantly contradict a known fact. It violates the entire spirit of Wikipedia. Your presenting misinformation by implying the bill creates this law. It already exists. (talk) 09:42, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Your right about that law, and the thing is all they decide to do was add the word streaming to it, and then presto, they justified getting paid about $1,000,000 a year and probably flew all over the country and wined and dined at your expense to talk about that one little word. Politicians !!! Plus, to add insult to injury they're not even going to add the word streaming to the law, that's not good value for your tax dollars, but what to do about it ? tell them to put it in ? they got you both ways. Penyulap talk 14:06, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Re: urgent[edit]

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Mlpearc (powwow) 17:45, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Re: Urgent[edit]

Hey Penyulap, I wish i could assist you. But frankly I dont have any rights in COmmons. -- Karthik Nadar 17:53, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

that's ok, it never hurts to ask they say, sorry to bother you, I didn't know where to ask really. Penyulap talk 18:01, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

A cookie for you![edit]

Choco chip cookie.png It's a bribe. No beverage until you work some of your magic on the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement intro (w/refs preferably). ACTA is about to be getting a lot of traffic, save them all from nosebleeds? Sloggerbum (talk) 19:19, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
ARGH! I will try my best, I am currently trying to get the images that the politician got in big ass trouble for using on his campaign website back onto wikipedia. I popped them up thinking attribution was sufficient, but they had the no commercial use thing, I contacted the artist and he's stoked for them to be on wikipedia he feels so strongly over the issue. Because they have been deleted (I requested their temporary deletion) I can't re-upload them under other names or anything, and I'm sure as ** not going to butcher the artists work with lower resolutions. So I'm trying everything to get attention and have them restored at the moment, plus trying to calm down a newbie who has gone like 15RR with me on SOPA (it's ok, it's not heated, and I'm still trying to get him to talk the right way), but I'll get to it (if I don't drop dead first). Penyulap talk 19:28, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Anything for a cookie though, well, actually, I'll look into it soon, now if it was Bento, it'd be done already ! :) Penyulap talk 19:28, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
You can upload the photo again with {{OTRS pending}} in the code, and release it under GNU or CC, and fill out his copyright info for him. Then just have him send a form letter to send to wikimedia, want the form letter? It's easy to upload a higher resolution later, don't need to send the info twice. Be aware that if the politicians change their story, they might be able to twist it such that they claim he released it into the Creative Commons a long time ago. I guess even then they didn't give his name credit, so it's misuseSloggerbum (talk) 19:35, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Oh, and don't you dare drop dead. I had to give User:Elinruby that talk a while back, you gorram wikidragons kill yourselves all the time with overwork and overstress - endurance!! Sloggerbum (talk) 19:37, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Hmm, looking at the article at the moment (trying to think of wikispeak for 'this is just another way, yet again, for politicians to waste everyone's money', hmmm, I'll think of something halfway) Penyulap talk 19:39, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Stop Online Piracy Act[edit]

3RR WARNING - Youreallycan 20:43, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

which part is a problem ? Penyulap talk 04:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this is English Wikipedia for ya.[edit]

Mist lifting off cedars

an image that is in the news, all over the news.

XXX Censored Mist Lifting off Cedars by DJ Schulte

An image created by the artist who is all over the news, in protest against SOPA and PIPA.

Naturally, they can't be included in the article. Penyulap talk 20:50, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing at the [Tamil Wikipedia page] :) --C.R.Selvakumar (talk) 22:40, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

வரவேற்கிறேன் Penyulap talk 23:29, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Lamar Smith[edit]

Am I right in presuming that your comments here mean that you are unwilling to remove the message you posted? If so, I'm hoping that you reconsider - while no one would be foolish enough to think that the message was by Lamar Smith, it seems inappropriate to post it on the talk page of the SOPA article, especially given current concerns. It was funny, but I'm concerned that the humour wasn't appropriate for the situation. - Bilby (talk) 06:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Remove what ? do you mean the helpful message box ? if you are stating that 'no one would be foolish enough to think that the message was by Lamar Smith' who else has their name signed in that message box ? would you like me to sign my help message with Penyulap talk rather than just Penyulap ? would that help ? I'll be happy to if you give me any kind of reason why it's needed, I'm all ears and happy to help. What 'current concerns' are you talking about, I don't understand what you mean there, can you explain ? Penyulap talk 07:05, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
You've posted a message box, making fun of Lamar Smith, using his photo, on the talk page of an article about his proposed bill, making it look like the message was by him. This seems like a problem, especially given the concerns about neutrality with both the article and Wikipedia's stance towards SOPA. i have no concerns with the help that you offered (other than the "vote early, vote often" bit, I guess), but I feel that it should be done in your voice, as you, rather than using Lamar Smith's photo and voice. - Bilby (talk) 07:11, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Well that's a little more confusing, because I would consider the Vote for ME rather than the "vote early, vote often" to be a problem for anyone "foolish enough to think that the message was by Lamar Smith" wouldn't you ? Penyulap talk 07:18, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Be that as it may, the issue is still there - the humour is, I think, inappropriate at best and a possible BLP problem at worst. At any rate, it isn't needed - you can make the same message in your own voice, without the photo, and avoid any concerns. - Bilby (talk) 07:25, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Fair enough on the photo, I can use something that is obviously not anything Lamar would use, obvious to anyone it's not, not even you. The message doesn't contain much in the way of humor however, because it's all just how to edit the article that size, the message of vote should I guess be different, as you seem concerned that someone might think it's the real Lamar, I think it's the 'Vote for ME' part not the "vote early, vote often" part though, but lets work together here and remove BOTH, I think that is best. Plus I think referring to the article as 'MY article' is no good either. So I'll change that too. Penyulap talk 07:40, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Is that any better ? I can change it if you don't like it. My artistry is somewhat shamefully poor. I don't mind to change the photo as I feel shame at the poor quality of my work. Penyulap talk 07:49, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Unfortunately, that moves the humour from subtle to blatant, but doesn't make it more appropriate. :( Still funny, though. - Bilby (talk) 07:53, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Well I don't want to use a picture of a Toad for example, that wouldn't do. Any suggestions, because I do want it to be useful to the many new IP users on that page you see. Penyulap talk 07:56, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Well I am glad that you seem to like it, maybe I will keep it here. Penyulap talk 07:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
That might be better, I expect there is no humor ? Wikipe-tan is the wikipedia mascot too, so that's a good character to use, rather than a Toad, or El Lamaro which you don't and do like. And wikipe can't be confused easily with Lamar either. Penyulap talk 08:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Penyulap, seriously? Please read User:Kirill Lokshin/Professionalism, an essay by a very wise Wikipedian. Your enthusiasm and energy are good things.. but these could easily be outweighed by inappropriate behaviour which is not consistent with the aims of the project. Please consider your actions more carefully. Mlm42 (talk) 09:44, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────* - I have removed your demeaning self created picture of a living subject of one of our articles - please don't replace it. Thanks - Youreallycan 10:43, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

You seem very confused. Wikipe-tan does not live. she never lived, she is a personification. She is not the subject of one of our articles. And what is demeaning about the image ? I'll only too happy to remove it if you clear up this confusion you have, and come up with any actual reason which makes sense. Penyulap talk 16:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Oh wait, your talking about El Lamaro ? I wouldn't call it any such thing as demeaning, it was heroic if anything and that was very clear. but meh. I was never all that pleased with my work on that one anyhow. Penyulap talk 17:03, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

January 2012[edit]

Your recent editing history at Stop Online Privacy Act shows that you are in danger of breaking the three-revert rule, or that you may have already broken it. An editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Breaking the three-revert rule often leads to a block.

If you wish to avoid being blocked, instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to discuss the changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. You may still be blocked for edit warring even if you do not exceed the technical limit of the three-revert rule if your behavior indicates that you intend to continue to revert repeatedly. Bbb23 (talk) 18:37, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

which part ? Penyulap talk 18:38, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Review the rule and your reverts (as defined by the rule).--Bbb23 (talk) 18:40, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
wp:Don't template the regulars, and come back when you have something specific to tell me. Penyulap talk 18:43, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
You came off an admin block for disruptive editing less than 3 months ago, Penyulap. Keep that sort of history on your Talk page instead of pushing it off into an archive and you are less likely to get tagged since people will know that you are (or should be) familiar with the rules (having had run-ins with them before).--Brian Dell (talk) 23:15, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Oh my God, you've found my archives, whatever am I going to do ? where can I hide ? where can I run. No, but seriously, what part of standard archiving is me trying to hide anything, that's hilarious. Penyulap talk 23:19, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I've just checked and lo and behold it's still there prominently displayed for all to see. It hasn't been hidden from view. Penyulap talk 23:22, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Wow Brian, your talkpage is massive !! would you like me to set up automatic archiving for you ? I don't mind, I'm rather not too bad at it. I set it up for this page, for the SOPA page, for lots of pages really, I'm pretty ok at it. Would you like my help with that ? Penyulap talk 23:25, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of archiving. re you're a "regular", yes, you are, over at ANI (at least for someone who arrived on Wikipedia less than a year ago) because of other editor complaints about you. You said you would retire in the face of this real or imagined persecution. The question is, what is different about your coming back out of retirement such that you won't end up on ANI again? Do you have a new philosophy, attitude, or style of editing that you can tell us about?--Brian Dell (talk) 23:34, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes indeed I am a bit of a regular over at ANI, that is so true. I wish I could do more to try and rescue the newbies over there who get burnt and wp:bitten, but I'm too busy writing articles. Did you know I once dragged myself to ANI ? I'm serious, I could see that there was inevitable trouble ahead, due to my talents in the foresight department, of course they for some reason at first thought it was some kind of joke, until other slower people eventually saw, what I saw from the beginning foresaw and assisted me at ANI to find a solution. That was all about the Tooth Fairy article. You see, it sucked unbelievably, I mean it reeks, editors said it was a 'disgrace to Wikipedia' and that was when they used polite language. And I'll tell you right now they used some really foul language to describe that article. Well, because of other editors, and I won't go into details for fear of retribution, I was unable to assist in improving that article, and it still is a big pile of horse crap, although I don't think that is the technical term, it's not a Good Article, (GA) and I swear on all that is true it will never be a Featured article (FA) although it is possible. It's just about the most vandalized it could possibly be, and I could, and DID, pinpoint precisely the reasons, down to the very words, that was causing the problems. Anyhow, a good solution was found, I decided it should remain forever a monument to the failure of the Wikipedia co-operative process, and so it stands today as a testament to the Epic Fail that is wiki. It is a magnet for vandalism and puts new, young readers off Wikipedia for good. Now as for your second point, about the changes that I have made to my own editing style, I outlined them in full in a final response at ANI. You might have missed that over there in the archives, but it's there. I pointed out that I would use my talent for foresight to extrapolate most editors responses to my suggestions, for example, I knew perfectly well that you would reject my perfectly sincere offer to assist you with your archiving, and if ever you do change your mind, and if you stay on wiki it's inevitable as your browser eventually won't cope, I will still be sincerely happy to assist you, because goshdarnit I'm a helpful guy, even to people who don't precisely like me. (I'm probably growing on you a bit I suspect, you see ? you don't want to admit it, but I can use foresight to see these things, and that you'll try to deny it to me and yourself too for a while) anyhow, it seems to be working well at the moment. However the Wikipedia project as a whole is doomed to be marginalized further, because of it's structural shortcomings, It's simply not possible to fully embody the project charter in the current form of govenment which better embodies mob mentality than it does neutrality. But anyhow, that's how the future is, but what you gonna do when there is nothing on TV and your health limits your mobility eh ? Nothing much else to keep ones mind occupied, I mean twitter ? what ? I'm a goldfish ? I don't think so. Penyulap talk 00:02, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
First, you told ANI you were going to topic ban yourself. You didn't. Then you told ANI you were going to retire. If you did, it didn't last long, did it? I'm sorry if health issues prevent you from being more mobile (if I understand you properly), but being disruptive here isn't the answer.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:10, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Excuse me, citation needed, where did I not keep to my word on a topic ban ? Plus, I think you may see, that when I said I'd retire I was under enormous stress brought on by the inflammatory behavior of some editors. Also, I think it's far fetched to say I'm disruptive. My talkpage and usepage testifies against you there. You're looking at one side and are blind to the shiny things and kind words. Shrug, your entitled to your opinion, and if there are editors out there who can't force me to agree with them specifically when they are wrong, well, tough. Doesn't mean I'm disruptive just because I'm not a mindless goat they can lead about on a rope. Penyulap talk 00:34, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment at ANI:

The reason you weren't topic banned formally at the previous ANI thread is because you basically said "Hey, I should be topic banned" so everyone just said "Great, no need to great a formal ban, just go ban yourself." So rather than waste our own times in debating a topic ban, we figured we'd actually take you at your word. Topic banning you was never rejected, it was just never discussed because you said you'd ban yourself. THAT is why the topic is relevant now. It is especially relevant because even a few hours ago you said you thought a topic ban would be a good idea. only (talk) 23:43, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

--Bbb23 (talk) 00:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Ah! I see the source of your confusion there, yes, that was a common misunderstanding other people seemed to have. They were confused and couldn't see there is a difference between me banning myself and ANI banning me. See, it's not the same thing. I'm not ANI. Anyhow, eventually after the second round I saw they simply couldn't understand, I got fed up with their failures and topic banned myself because they simply refused to do it. I think it would have been worse for me if I had of pressed the point because they are so incredibly sloppy. The tooth fairy article was where the problems were completely limited to, as that was where the interaction with that particular editor was limited to, and there were suggestions to ban project-wide, which other editors described as a 'blunt instrument' and rightly so. I think it's a cultural thing, like the American game show 'Survivor' the entire concept is a monumental epic fail in other cultures and the TV show fails to penetrate those markets the way other popular tv show formats do. People on English wiki, mostly Americans, just want to 'vote you off' rather than integrate, (like the Japanese would), completely failing to realize they will be the only one left standing, or, failing to realize that when they are the only one left, that they will be the only one left. Ridiculous isn't it. How can you write an encyclopedia if you are going to ignore everyone ? you'll be writing a journal. Oh, where did I say a few hours ago about a topic ban ? Penyulap talk 00:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
At the risk of psychoanalyzing you on such short aquaintance, I think you hit the crux of it (being ignored) - you crave attention. And here we are giving it to you. Oh, well, at some point it will end, at least in your present incarnation, because you will try the patience of enough editors, no one will believe you (I don't), and you'll be sanctioned accordingly. (As an aside, I don't understand what you mean by "project-wide" above, but the proposal was, I believe, a ban on articles related to mythical creatures.) Unless I have to, I won't be posting here again, so I'll let you have the last word (probably many of them, heh).--Bbb23 (talk) 01:16, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I so want to give you the last word, but you ask too many good questions of me. Project wide means all wiki projects, many editors only know of English Wikipedia, which we use now, but there are others, a Japanese Wikipedia, a Russian Wikipedia and so forth, there are quite a few. I have made at this moment, contributions to more than three dozen of them, but most of my contributions are space related, mostly ISS related, across 20 or so of them. So problems with one editor, on one article, at ANI turns up people shouting I should be banned across sites they may be completely unaware of, and many people show no signs they are even aware of any details at all of the dispute being discussed. It's called demagoguery and it's popular here, so popular I should write an essay to improve awareness of it. The ban for mythical creatures was also too wide. I had asked for an interaction ban, which was the ideal solution, to no avail. It wasn't even taken seriously or discussed. As for seeking attention, Wikipedia editors don't make the headlines like celebrities or talkback radio jocks or politicians, no, ours is a life of anonymity, punctuated only by an occasional barnstar I'm afraid. Wiki is no solution for attention seekers. Penyulap talk 02:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Result of the complaint about your edits at the Edit Warring Noticeboard[edit]

Please see WP:AN3#User:Penyulap reported by User:Bbb23 (Result: Stale). The complaint has been closed. But if any editors continue to revert the article without waiting for consensus on the talk page, action may be taken. EdJohnston (talk) 16:38, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

wow, first I even knew of this, thanks for letting me know EdJohnston, it makes me wonder where else I am being talked about. Maybe I should use my crystal ball again. Penyulap talk 16:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Ahh screw the crystal ball I'll leave it up to pure chance. Penyulap talk 16:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

(inserted by curator) see also ANI:Bullied and User:SKeptical_of_Love&action=history


Saw your changes to the ROS pic, have to admit i like the highlighted USOS but the arrows arnt necessary. They confuse the image. Also, just so you know... Progress now only docks at Pirs (future Nauka) site, and the Zvezda aft port. Soyuz will only ever dock at Poisk and Rassvet. The current photo shows this and is correct. You could annotate it to simplify it. Check out my website, I now do most my posts on Twitter thru that page now. I am getting quite the following, and enjoying it much more than being insulted on Wiki. Hope you are well. Leebrandoncremer (talk) 08:16, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

It's true they are confusing, I was trying to get around requesting a slight counterclockwise rotation of the upper arrow before, it seemed not to be able to make up it's mind if it was pointing at the dm or the sm, so I thought I'd mess with it again. I know what you mean, between the fans on my talkpage and the recent assistance I got with the Operation Global Blackout article, and reading up about Wikidragons, Yeah, I'm loving it, it's all good. Penyulap talk 09:44, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I think you know what's wrong here[edit]

[1] - SummerPhD (talk) 03:49, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Hmm let me see

Hmm, let me see,

  • you've come to make up because you've improved the Tooth Fairy article to GA status and want help pushing it through to FA status. Hmmm, no that's not it. Stone cold there.
  • your stalking me and saw me talking about the tooth fairy article on my user talkpage, giving a fair summary of other editors opinions about the article, and mine too. Hmm, we're getting warmer.
  • For some reason you don't want to directly complain about that, and so decide to pick something else, and haven't researched that issue. Hey ! I think we're getting HOT here.

Say, how has it been ? Do you still have that 77 scorecard on your page ? Lemme have a look. Oh yes !!! it's up to 80 something. Anyhow, enough chit chat, how may I help you, the crystal ball isn't working, or is it working too well ? And, I'd also like to know is there any problem with me talking about my previous editing on the tooth fairy article on my talkpage ? Penyulap talk 04:26, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Hmm well, I'm stumped, if anyone knows whats wrong, I'm all ears. Penyulap talk 05:03, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
For those following along at some future AN/I discussion: {{Citation needed (lede)|reason= Because I give up helping you out moving it to the body, when you fail to understand it improves the articles quality and just shove it back in here, do it yourself |date=January 2012}}<!--<ref name="NYT-20120120">{{cite news |last=Weisman |first=Jonathan |title=After an Online Firestorm, Congress Shelves Antipiracy Bills |url= |date=January 20, 2012 |publisher=[[NYTimes]] |accessdate=January 20, 2012 }}</ref>--
I now leave this to its seemingly inevitable conclusion. - SummerPhD (talk) 05:16, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
The SOPA article attracts many new users to it, and so I try to be more flexible with them rather than going straight to 3rr threats, in accordance with bite. That is a message for one very persistent POV (Pro-sopa) editor, the issue had been discussed on the talkpage. I figure if that is the problem, I'll have to be more direct with the poor guy. Penyulap talk 06:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Or, rather than adding a direct quote with a vague tag saying it's in the lede (when it isn't) and isn't verified in the body and including a hidden passive-aggressive (and very bite-y) rant in the article, along with the source your tag says you don't have, you could have, perhaps, gee, I dunno, maybe, sorta, kinda cited the source. Whatever. As I see it, you can A) explain this now and later or B) fix it. My guess is you'll choose the attention of talking about it again later. - SummerPhD (talk) 06:23, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
That's ironic how you put a whole lot of passive-aggressive language into the exact same sentence as calling me passive aggressive. As for the issue of the article, I shall explain for the ever widening audience what's going on. The article was struggling to cope with the load of material and friction between editors, and there was a huge discussion about splitting it when I arrived, so I knew what to do to help with the article, and proposed it on the talkpage, and then later, unopposed, did it, that was, change the style, upgrade the quality of the article a notch or two. I took the old lead and put it into an overview section where it would contain all the things people were shoving into it and all it's refs, and then writing a good, easily read, lede. I'm pretty good with ledes and big articles cause of the ISS article. Anyhow my efforts were accepted really well, Barn starred and cookie bribed to do it to another article (not the tooth fairy article mind you, how is that article coming along btw SummerPhd? I expect your having trouble with "something that doesn't exist" ? can't write about it ? I can spit out a decent article about the Chinese space station in an hour so if you want help, no, wait, I think I said you're on your own with the tooth fairy.) I now see you've come here to my talkpage to try and get me worked up again. Provoke me no doubt. I see what you're up to. Anyhow, try to keep on track here, The lede doesn't have references in it anymore, in line with better quality, and Xenophrenic doesn't seem to want to pay attention to the discussion about that, just keeps deleting text from the article itself, moving it into the lede along with it's ref, mind you, it's pretty much just the bit about the postponement of the sopa bill. Penyulap talk 06:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
what is 'tag saying it's in the lede (when it isn't)' ? Penyulap talk 07:03, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Template:Citation needed (lead). Fix it or talk about it even more? - SummerPhD (talk) 07:08, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Ahh, you use the ambiguous phrase (or in your dialect 'vague') 'fix it', thinking that I can 'fix it' by removing the template and blanked refs. Indeed, Yes, I'll do that to demonstrate the problem. Now there are two paths that can be taken, either Xenophrenic will read the discussion here (most likely) and then realize what it is that he is doing, or yet again, degrade the quality of the article by returning cites to the lede.(insert, cites were returned to the lede just after this by Xenophrenic) Because 'fix it' has many meanings, including 'try to talk to Xenophrenic yet again, on the article talkpage about what he is doing, and yet again failing' see that kind of fix it isn't working. You figure my doing as I have been doing before, that is, moving that info to the body of the article in a new section and summarizing in the lead will work. You're not aware that it has been failing. The only way it can work this time is if Xenophrenic reads this and realizes what he has been doing. Penyulap talk 07:27, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
'Fix it' yes indeed, not 'remove it' not 'talk to Xenophrenic about it' not 'put the reference in yourself' not 'move the material to a new section and then summarize in the lede, as is intended for an article of that quality' no, just 'fix it' just "I think you know what is going on here" just "we homogenize all of wikipedia to exclude all other cultures and thinking, by expecting all users to think as we do, to know what we mean when we say "I think you know"" hmm. Yes, the systemic failing. The tyranny of the masses.Penyulap talk 07:36, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict, I'll post this bit first but probably comment above, cause I already posted a tb on his page) Well what do you know, he's no beginner. I'll ask him about his pushing here, you know, for continuity. Xenophrenic, can you tell me why, as I had asked you specifically on the talkpage, actually, here I'll quote my question

Xenophrenic, don't remove notable parts of the lead like this, say why you think they shouldn't be included.

  • The bill could make some proxy servers and the Tor project illegal and the Electronic Freedom Foundation (EFF) warned that websites Etsy, Flickr and Vimeo all seemed likely to shut down if the bill becomes law.
  • the protests were the biggest in Internet history, with over 115 thousand sites altering their webpages.
  • In response to the protest actions, RIAA stated, "It’s a dangerous and troubling development when the platforms that serve as gateways to information intentionally skew the facts to incite their users and arm them with misinformation," and "it’s very difficult to counter the misinformation when the disseminators also own the platform."

I'm happy for them to be removed if there is some kind of good reason. Penyulap talk 18:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

That was my question as timestamped there, next day, you've taken out two of them for the third time at the very least, without a mention of why on the talkpage, why is that ? Penyulap talk 06:33, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the late notification, when I pressed preview to see if the tb was correct, I think a new messages thing came up and I was diverted. Penyulap talk 07:30, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

oh by the way, you keep removing things from the article warring style, 3RR style,
  • The Electronic Frontier Foundation, a rights advocacy non-profit group, confirmed the protests were the biggest in Internet history, with over 115 thousand sites altering their webpages.
  • The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) warns that proxy servers and websites hosting user-generated content, such as Etsy, Flickr and Vimeo, could be targeted under the bill.

plus what I have told you is a peacock term, 'expert'. I've asked you on the talkpage what is going on, and you've ignored me, and done it all over again the next day. You know better than that looking at your userpage. Penyulap talk 07:56, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Penyulap. I have already explained my edits. I've seen the "___(insert favorite site here)___ could be targeted" argument, as well as rebuttals to that argument, but the WP:LEDE is not the place to conduct that debate — and it is certainly not the proper location in which to insert the assertions of just one side of the debate. The lead should normally contain no more than four paragraphs, be carefully sourced as appropriate, and be written in a clear, accessible style with a neutral point of view to invite a reading of the full article. It is already bloated; let's not add inappropriate text to it. The same applies to the uncited "EFF confirmed" assertion about protest size and numbers. Inappropriate for the lede; and as for the text in the body, it should be made clear that in this matter, EFF is not an uninvolved reliable source for assertion of fact. Even RT got the number from EFF, which took the number from here ... "confirmed", heh. What was unclear when I said I removed unsourced "EFF confirmed" assertion pending reliable sourcing; can only find EFF quoting non-RS "Fight for the Future" claims. The RIAA response, like the "7,000 websites" content, hasn't been touched in my recent edits.
Regarding your "peacock terms", I've addressed that on the article Talk page, and even expanded the discussion in response to your comment at the BLPNoticeboard; I have yet to see an argument in response from you to support your reverts. Speaking of which, regarding your comment: "you keep removing things from the article warring style, 3RR style" — my edits are policy-compliant, and I haven't violated the letter nor the spirit of 3RR. You, however, have. I haven't reported your several violations, because I believe you are actually trying to help — other editors may have less patience. I see an editor has already warned you; and 4+ insertions of the same EFF content in 24 hours, for example
(13:55, 21 January 2012)
(18:19, 21 January 2012)
(19:11, 21 January 2012)
(03:08, 22 January 2012)
...can end up being very problematic. Xenophrenic (talk) 13:35, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Well I guess I should thank you for explaining yourself, still I wish you had of put this explanation onto the talkpage of the article when I asked you to. It sure would have helped me, and others too. What is the problem with putting explanations to things on the article talkpage when requested there ? Penyulap talk 15:32, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
As noted above, I had already explained myself on the talk page. It is still there for your review. The explanations in my edit summaries are also still there for review. You are very welcome for the re-explanations; no thanks are necessary -- I'm happy to repeat explanations indefinitely until the last vestige of confusion is gone. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, that article was rather busy with newbies, and from the way that you were acting I fully concluded that you were a newbie. I see now that's not the cause. Here is why I thought you were a newbie.

Removing "The Electronic Frontier Foundation, a rights advocacy non-profit group, confirmed the protests were the biggest in Internet history, with over 115 thousand sites altering their webpages."

Removing "The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) warns that proxy servers and websites hosting user-generated content, such as Etsy, Flickr and Vimeo, could be targeted under the bill"

So I figured you weren't answering questions asked on the talkpage because you were a newbie. Considering the overwhelming speed of that article's editing, and the amount of newbies who I was helping on the article talkpage I'm sure you'll forgive me for not somehow noticing the, actually, where were the explanations again ? One of them was in the edit summary was it ? where were the others exactly? Penyulap talk 16:12, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Of course you are forgiven. High-traffic pages can be confusing, as you've experienced, and it is easy to miss communications. Several of them are on the talk page under Expanded details of recent edits, and yes, there are also informative notations in the specific edit summaries, regarding sourcing issues and inappropriate lede content. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Well you are somewhat unusual as you have opted out of assuming good faith, which is a concept I fully support along with Don't be a Dick. It would have been helpful, god I am stating the obvious here, that on a talkpage as busy as that one, with as many newbies as I am helping that when I ask you a very specific Question on the talkpage, that you answer it. No doubt you have all sorts of policy related excuses to play hide and seek behind just to make life difficult and disrupt efforts to improve the page overall. And no doubt your disruptive efforts are calculated with a precision you get a kick out of because they fall within the letter of policy. Those kind of efforts are at the core of the drive to destroy wikipedia. Most any book that is not a private Journal measures it's success by readership appeal. When Wikipedia sucks and blows as much as the tooth fairy article, which gives a few editors a kick out of the fight against vandals, people do not come back, wikipedia loses it's funding, (I mean it's a no-brainer you don't donate money to a shit project, you donate it to something worthwhile,) and Wikipedia is marginalized further. New editors are leaving in droves because of the treatment they get here, and that kind of behavior doesn't help. Any and all other projects that spring up with a similar mission statement as wikipedia, but that mission better structurally embodied within the governing mechanism will replace wikipedias share of the 'market'. Penyulap talk 22:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Penyulap! These kinds of rants make you very difficult to deal with.. please consider how you are treating Xenophrenic. I think you are too demanding of other editors when it comes to answering your questions. Please remember that Wikipedia is edited by volunteers, and more important to Wikipedia than the funding is the amount of editor time which is put into it. As far as I can tell, Xenophrenic has been civil, polite, and non-disruptive.. I'm not sure if I could say the same for you!
Unfortunately this is beginning to remind me of your vilification of me last year, which ended up at ANI (I suggest Xenophrenic read some of that thread, so he knows what to expect). Mlm42 (talk) 00:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

So I think that the peacock term is being returned to the article because it is there in one other place I didn't notice ? So rather than remove peacock terms, we have to balance peacock terms in the article between the "supporters and opponents" sections of the article. Cool, and rather than explain on the article talkpage, it's explained somewhere else. No worries. I'll leave the peacock terms for you to balance out as you see fit. Penyulap talk 16:51, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I still don't see any "peacock terms", as was explained on the talk page. Perhaps you could be more specific? Do you refer to the way the article calls Crocker and Kaminsky Internet security experts, or Abrams a constitutional law expert? Do you refer to the several direct quotes that mention experts? I'm not seeing any inappropriate use of words as "peacock terms", just well-sourced accurate descriptions -- but perhaps I'm not seeing the specifc instance about which you are concerned. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
What part of I'll leave the peacock terms for you to balance as you see fit don't you understand ? Stop asking me to be more specific about it, ask someone else. I know when I'm beat trying to get my point across to someone who refuses to assume good faith. Penyulap talk 22:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Draig.svg This user is a WikiDragon
making massive, bold edits everywhere.

I found something I quite like. Penyulap talk 10:54, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Space discussion[edit]

OMG you're a total GENIUS, that whole "the rendezvous and docking project hardware is compatible with the International Space Station." - Jiang Guohua, a professor and chief engineer at the China Astronaut Research and Training Center in Beijing. is brilliant. Stick it in the article man ! I can't steal your thunder there, you've had that since march ? good thing you remember/mention it ! That is brilliant ! Especially since it's the first specific mention of the rendezvous system. Which suggests more than it reveals as to where the docking would occur, yes, because as far as I kwikinow, there is no (automatic) rendezvous system whatsoever on the USOS, it's strictly Russian.

Anyhow as for the public domain thing, it's like 'So totally too late' horse has bolted and so forth. The Americans are simply trying to make their version the standard, however, JAXA is the only agency I can see being told to take it up. The ESA, Russians and Chinese have the standard and are far too busy going to MARS to backtrack for no reason whatsoever, except to help America avoid the requirement to use the Russian designed system on it's craft in future if it wants to co-operate. If they get that onto the station, or if it is scheduled to go, like on the new commercial craft, then it's in the article, but as it is, can't see it's relevancy. (even though it is released into the PD it is still a US idea, and gives them boasting rights)

ITAR is just another way to say 'we don't like you' after all you can only copy answers in class if you are copying off someone who knows more than you, whats to learn from the ISS that 921 and tiangong 3 heavy don't already demonstrate ? Still if there is a page for ITAR, a link is good for the impediments that America makes towards Chinese partnership.

Re the technical incompatibilities, that's to do with the rendezvous system, is the Shenzhou optical whilst the Russian is RF, making it an obvious (and easy) requirement to EVA attach the appropriate fittings to the ISS first, they are always fiddling with the Kurs furniture up there, so it's no big hassle. Penyulap talk 05:09, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

"Which suggests more than it reveals as to where the docking would occur, yes, because as far as I know, there is no (automatic) rendezvous system whatsoever on the USOS, it's strictly Russian."
New non-APAS compatible system supports automated docking and is planned to be launched in 2014. But the important thing to remember is that we don't know if that is even required for Shenzhou to be able to dock, remember Soyuz is capable of both. -Craigboy
Cool I didn't know about that, so who developed the rendezvous hardware? Penyulap talk 06:53, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't know but the capability is planned. And I believe the HTV already automatically rendezvous with the station.--Craigboy (talk) 09:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
"Anyhow as for the public domain thing, it's like 'So totally too late' horse has bolted and so forth."
I don't know what you mean. -Craigboy
Oh, like the VHS/Betamax thing, regardless of which one seems better, the more popular one can become the default, although in this case I make no claims as to the PD one being better, as the APAS is more developed. Penyulap talk 06:53, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't understand which docking mechanism you think is popular.--Craigboy (talk) 09:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
"JAXA is the only agency I can see being told to take it up."
ESA is a building a compatible system and China has stated (possibly erroneously) its mechanism is also compatible.--Craigboy (talk) 05:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Hey, you found go taikonauts ! I been looking for a readable version of that elusive site for ages. I should have know it'd be well hidden between a www and a .com. I couldn't read the pdf you linked, it wouldn't open on my reader for some reason. I read another version, and saw what you mean, Europe isn't necessarily designing it, it's like each country will say 'this is our system' meaning they have adopted the standard, rather than invented the standard. Still, omg you're teaching me new stuff I didn't know before. The ironic thing is, if you put all of this into the China section, like the shenzhou could use the existing mechs till '15 or '16, and then use the new mechs after they are installed, you do know what it all summarizes down to ? yes, what penyulap insisted on in the first place, that they could dock in future if it becomes politically feasible. So we are both geniuses and both right and both agree. Hmph. (plus some other bright spark would support you, as I would, that all the docking talk goes in the docking section, and the co-operation section gets a small summary). Hey, lets put all this new stuff into the docking section now, ok ? Penyulap talk 07:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
The statement "that they could dock in future if it becomes politically feasible" is such an oversimplification of the truth, it infers that the hardware on Shenzhou is already compatible and will remain so.--Craigboy (talk) 09:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
"The Americans are simply trying to make their version the standard, however, JAXA is the only agency I can see being told to take it up."
The NASA Docking System isn't the standard, they had to modify their system to comply with it (previously had a different diameter). The standard was approved by the ISS Multilateral Coordination Board which consists of Canada, ESA, Japan and Russia. -Craigboy
I didn't know, but do now, cool. Penyulap talk 07:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
"The ESA, Russians and Chinese have the standard and are far too busy going to MARS to backtrack for no reason whatsoever, except to help America avoid the requirement to use the Russian designed system on it's craft in future if it wants to co-operate."
I don't understand this statement, why do you think they are going to Mars any sooner than anyone else? Russian has only successfully landed a probe on Mars once. That was in 1971 and than they lost contact with it within 15 seconds. ESA has launched a single orbiter. China has never launched a probe to Mars (although they did have a payload piggyback on the failed Russian Phobos-Grunt). In the 2000s alone NASA has launched six probes towards Mars (not counting Dawn), five of them landers. The first five were successful missions (with Oprotunity currently operating more than seven years past its intended mission) and the sixth, Curiosity, is on its way. Curiosity is both the heaviest and largest object ever attempted to land on Mars. So like it or not, NASA is by far in the lead when it comes to Martian spacecraft. The United States is also the only country that has stated that they are building a super heavy lift vehicle, which is needed for Mars missions. If there really is a "race to Mars" than both Europe and Russia pose no threat, China with their growing GDP would be the only real challenger. I don't know what you mean by "they have the standard". -Craigboy
I did like the rovers, I was quite impressed with the, only disappointment there were batteries that lasted 6 months. you can get multifarad caps that last longer than that which would have given them a bit more life. seems a shame. Have a look here I especially like the comment that begins "that will be great for climbing all those ......." Penyulap talk 18:36, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
well the first moon landing was a russian built craft, but who cares. I'll agree with you on chinas strength, but not about russian lack of knowhow, they own Leo's ass since '71, the stats show up lots of short term shuttle flights, 2 weeks max a piece, but the russians just stay there. some say they lost the moon because of their concern for safety and contingency. the americans never care about safety, ever. shuttle eject seats, crew and cargo, 4:1 eva hatches. they could go there for sure, but return ? who knows. but the american economy is withering and failing anyhow, so where could they get the cash ? still like i said, who knows, they'd get it somehow. Penyulap talk 06:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
"the americans never care about safety, ever. shuttle eject seats, crew and cargo, 4:1 eva hatches. they could go there for sure, but return?" Pen you've made a lot of misinformed comments before but this one takes the cake. I don't know what you mean about EVA hatches.-Craigboy
Yeah I do rave on a bit eh. Umm, there are 4 eva hatches on the ISS ROS before they have to use module hatches to get back in, so if one hatch fails, who cares. for the USOS, there is a single hatch, if that fails, they are looking for alternative ways in right there, according to docs, it's the ros hatches they use for contingency. One of the nasa shuttles I think columbia? flew with 2 ejection seats in trials, but rather than put them all in for all of the crew, they just took the lot out because lives are cheaper. The chinese have gone to a lot of trouble to get the escape system (same as the russian system) ready on their ships, there was never any question that escape at any point in the journey was prerequisite to building a spaceship. some say that the russian safety standards cost them the manned moon mission because they were going to do it safe or not at all, they were preparing contingency every step of the way, so if they couldn't life off, they'd walk 500 meters across the lunar surface to the backup craft and use that one. Crew and cargo means when something goes wrong with the cargo it kills the crew. if they are separate, as the recent progress that was lost, nobody gets hurt. Put them together, and there is trouble. The Chinese are not falling for it, but the Russian ppts looks like they are playing with fire. Re "Pen you've made a lot of misinformed comments before but this one takes the cake." I challenge that, I've made goofier statements than this I'm sure, and without a doubt I'll go on to make goofier statements for sure too. Penyulap talk 18:26, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Why would the ISS need four contingency airlocks? You can't put seven ejection seats in the Shuttle, take a look at where some of them are located. LAS is a requirement for Orion and the Commercial Crew vehicles. I don't know know where your getting your info on Russian safety standards. The Russians had no back-up craft planned, transfer to the lunar vehicle and later back to the Soyuz required a EVA (which increased risk), astronaut would be alone on the moon (if he became incapacitated that would be it) and their super heavy lift vehicle had four unsuccessful launch attempts. The Progress failure would not have killed the crew.--Craigboy (talk) 22:23, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
They have four contingency hatches because they learnt their lesson on MIR, or in rare cases where a crewmember is free floating towards the open airlock hatch at high velocity, another crewmember can open the hatch on the other side, and he can go whizzing on through, you know, to avoid a headache. :)
There were plenty of options for shuttle crew escape, a nobrainer is a cartridge that brings a lot of them out the side in one go or the generous provision of parachutes and sectioning the craft, but there are plenty of elegant solutions which were all 'too expensive', so ESA learned from that tragedy changing Hermes, and the Chinese never took the idea seriously, and the Russians took a good look at all those missing tiles on Buran after it landed, and decided robots were for cargo and have never mixed the two beyond a hundred or two kilograms. Anyhow I'm not saying anything that the Americans themselves haven't said a thousand times in this regard, you could write 500 articles full of criticism for the American space program, but I don't care for any of it. If someone else cares to include such nonsense good for them, I'll help them where I can, but it's hardly the inspiring stuff of dreams. Re the Luna, I think we've been reading different books with different accounts, and I'm glad, together we could paint a bigger picture with what we both know about it. Sweet! Re Progress, yes, that's the result of good planning, the Progress is lost, and nobody in the Russian federation is shedding a tear over it, but Columbia explodes during unprecedented viewership by elementary school students who are traumatized for a long time to come. That would shade their thinking about space travel throughout their adult life. Their are the lost cosmonauts, and every failure has been met with complete redesign to make sure it can't happen again. Look at their ballistic reentry modes. They fight to prevent them, they fight to make them even safer too. Penyulap talk 23:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
They had four airlocks fail on Mir? A basket system was used for Space Shuttle. This cartridge system you propose would have a negative impact on payload mass, cost billions of dollars, not protect the crew in all contingencies and would not have prevented either the Challenger or the Columbia disasters. I doubt your claim about cargo on Buran. I would like to see the books that claim that Russia lost the moon race because they were too safe. Once again the failure that doomed Progress (a third stage Soyuz-U failure) would have not killed the crew. The retry-capsule would separate and the parachutes would deploy, the crew would come to a safe although rather hard landing.--Craigboy (talk) 11:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Sorry whats a basket ? there are 4 hatches on two airlocks on the ros. on mir, one hatch failed, per my writing in the article. An EVA is grueling, it's a harrowing experience, it's like running around in wet cement, well anyhow, it's exhausting for the guys, and they get to the end of it, and are exhausted and tired can't concentrate, last thing they need is a new job, to figure out how to get in before their air runs out. It wouldn't happen, they can always get back into the ros, but it's better to have those very welcoming hatches at the end of the workday. I should write up about EVA being a health hazard actually. as for billions, there is nothing nasa does do, or doesn't do, that doesn't cost billions of dollars. You can say putting it is would cost billions and you could fairly say that not putting it in would cost billions. Nasa is sucking up billions for a manned program they don't even have. They're costing more and going backwards, out of orbit. There are plenty of ways they could have avoided challenger, and some are not mentioned in any of the articles I've scanned over. They could have survived, and the poor guys did for some varying amounts of time. Saying it can't be done is just Nasa officials way of saying all this money belongs in my pocket, not in any kind of working project. Safety is not impossible, that's ridiculous. What was the point of 7 people anyhow ? if you can send just two, with ejector seats, then fill the extra space with life support and there you go. I can't see sense in any of what they do, I tell you one thing, they are good at criticizing, because I could ref x 1,000 everything I've said here. But they go too far with the crit, and that makes china and russia reticent to talk. I've seen the docs, where even today, Russia has plenty of headaches dealing with america and it's press. I didn't say progress would kill it's crew, I said it never had a crew. If the MLM explodes on it's way to orbit for example to make it clear, it's not going to make any difference to anyone. well, someone loses their job of course, but every usos mod that goes up, if it goes wrong, that's not so good. Every load is different, so there is no ironing out the bugz like there is with the soyuz. I might get to the lunar thing one day, but I don't get interested in much beyond the ISS unless it's a follow on station. Hey isn't it funny how you point out there is no way for the US crew to survive, and there is no way for the Soyuz crew to die ? It's subconscious that the Soyuz is the best with no peer, see what I mean the Russians are insane to try to replace it? Penyulap talk 13:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
This is a basket. Can you expand on the hatch system Roscosmos uses? Your proposal would not have prevented any of the disasters. NASA has a manned spaceflight program. Development obviously costs money. NASA does many things that don't cost billions. Just because spaceflight is expensive doesn't mean that every multi-billion dollar expense is not a big deal. I didn't say the Challenger accident couldn't be avoided, I simply said that your proposal would not have prevented it. Who said safety is impossible? Do you mean never losing a crew is impossible? Do you think those five people just stood around, they performed the mission because there are other things to do besides landing the craft. NASA doesn't just launch additional crew members just because it would be cool to have more people in space. I'm dubious of those refs you claim to have. Why would MLM explode on the way to orbit? "isn't it funny how you point out there is no way for the US crew to survive, and there is no way for the Soyuz crew to die ?" It doesn't sound like you comprehend what I'm saying. Your ground cartridge proposal would not have prevented the Challenger disaster which occurred on its way to orbit or the Columbia disaster that occurred on re-entry. The third stage engine shut-off failure that doomed the Progress mission would not have killed a Soyuz crew is the same failure occurred on a manned mission.--Craigboy (talk) 14:12, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Oh ok, a basket, thanks, cool. I pretty much covered the hatches in the article. I don't mean to say that the escape system would have prevented the explosion. I mean it would have been one extra possible layer of protection. What would have prevented the accident in the first place is less political egotistical shit and civilized discussion. The people who made the O rings knew and did their best to convey to the higherup that there was a snowflakes chance in you know where that the O rings would survive launch that day. Anyone along the way should be able to stop the launch. I've brought production lines to a halt myself, and if it's not done, and if it can't be done by anyone at all, there is major trouble ahead. It's a fundamental feature of Japanese manufacturing philosophy for example. NASA paid for that mistake, the push for a launch and ignoring the engineers further down the line. MLM wouldn't necessarily explode on it's way to orbit, that doesn't mean it wouldn't have some of it's load shift or misbehave. Each of the loads for the shuttle are different, because of that, each of the loads has different possibilities for causing trouble. Although people are all different, so long as they keep their hands to themselves, they are pretty much all the same, so what can go wrong with the Soyuz has less variety.
Yes I am saying some of those 5 really do stand around a lot of the time. Come on, look up the mission objectives and scheduling. Actually look at 135, regarding the last EVA. They were going looking to scrub it, and have a look why. It's like the TBS guy. For saving the crew on the way up, they were still alive after the explosion. I can't see why a capsule inside the cabin that contained the seats couldn't have broken away and used parachutes, on the way back from orbit, it's the absolute defining example of why you do not mix crew and cargo together. Mixing crew and cargo killed the columbia crew and it may well kill a ppts crew too. The 3rd stage progress wouldn't kill a Soyuz crew, but it would kill a nasa shuttle crew, they have just two places on the globe to land, although the Buran was in a similar situation it had atmospheric jet aircraft engines, affording it a little more crossrange, but it's moot as they saw the hazards IMO. Sorry what do you mean ground cartridge, I mean a ejection or disintegrate-around-it kind of thing. Like a ballistic off nominal soyuz. Penyulap talk 21:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
"(even though it is released into the PD it is still a US idea, and gives them boasting rights)"
Why would that matter? -Craigboy
the speeches, the man to the moon thing, it's pretty standard, and why most countries go there, i mean the russians are nuts, they are reinventing the wheel with the ppts, only for the boasting rights, how dumb is that? they have soyuz and what is wrong with Soyuz that they need to double it's crew size and payload, they just want to say it's russian not soviet afaik, plus, they go backwards mixing crew and cargo. sheesh. anyway, no boast no budget, esp in the us. Penyulap talk 06:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
You think PPTS is re-inventing the wheel? I mean I've seen some strange spacecraft designs (I think T-SPace proposed an air-launched tube shaped spacecraft that would be recovered mid-air) but PPTS is based off of a well understood capsule shape, shares hardware with the older Soyuz (docking mechanism, Kurs...) and overall isn't that great of a technological leap. An advantage to the PPTS is that you could launch twice the crew of the same launch and you would need less docking ports on a space station for the same amount of crew. "anyway, no boast no budget, esp in the us." You seem to have forgotten the promises Russia has claimed over the years.--Craigboy (talk) 09:51, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes, the soyuz is there, it works, it's a mature design, safest there is. So why mess with it, spend more money on design than they can ever save on the mass produced and cheaper soyuz, plus kill a bunch of people whilst ironing out the inevitable flaws. What is the mission, compete for the title of deadliest space accident of all time ? at 6, it misses the mark, but is getting there. Yes, less docking ports, but who cares, seriously. More docking ports the better, more contingency. Everyone is obsessed with massive payloads. It's pointless. If something breaks on the station, something fails, they can send it up on the next progress which is never far away. Smaller frequent trips is good for the soyuz/progress combination, who wants to wait for fresh food until the next HTV omg. Three is a good size, you choose between a crew of two, being veteran and newbie team, like luke and obiwan, plus some cargo, or you go for the crew of three. A crew of 7 on the shuttle was kind of pointless, as you could never change over 7 people on the ISS could you, it's 6. A bunch of joyriders, but they don't even sell the extra seats. If there is something massive you send a proton, something medium send an unmanned soyuz like for the dc's. I stick with it, they're nuts. The only reason to reinvent the wheel is if they are trying to be lunatics (pun intended) and goto the moon. Penyulap talk 10:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Because Roscosmos shouldn't be afraid of creating a superior spacecraft simply because of what-ifs. A six person spacecraft would allow you to have more back-up docking mechanisms, not the other way around. The ISS supports a crew of seven. If you have a seven person spacecraft you could launch an entire crew on a single mission, which would bring down your launch costs. It also allows you to bring down your entire crew in a single craft. PPTS isn't re-inviting the well, it is simply an evolution to a superior craft.--Craigboy (talk) 22:23, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Re superior spacecraft, now who's using a crystal ball, that is one tall order, the definition of an outrageous claim. Time will tell. Penyulap talk 23:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Because this is a discussion that is not intended to be incorporated into any article means it doesn't have to conform to wikipedia style rules. No it is not an outrageous claim, from a capability aspect how is Soyuz superior?--Craigboy (talk) 11:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
It's fully ironed out. Every time you invent something there are bugs. It had bugs, deaths, those bugs have been dealt with, it's basically perfect as any carrier is ever going to get. There are wise rules, and you don't mess with perfection is a pretty good one. The cost is about as low as it's ever going to get, only the chinese will beat them there, So why spend up I think you like the word billions, to develop a new manned craft with no mission, when you can buy a few extra soyuz for much less, this isn't a nobrainer, people just cannot see that for example 7 crew in the Nasa shuttle is completely pointless, where are they going to go ? half of them at the very least are joyriders. If ISS is the destination 6 is at best the limit, but you just don't swap out the entire crew, it's not a good idea for the handover. Better to have half the crew knowing what the station is up to, with time enough to bring them up to speed. Look at it this way, you can make a shuttle that takes 10 people, that was Buran, it was meant for 10 crew, but where were they heading ? 10 people get into space and say, well we're here now, what next. There won't be destinations for decades at this rate because idiots are in charge of everything and return to square one. Why rebuild the Soyuz? it's insane. Although, by comparison, they are the sane ones when you look at America, the president said, I kid you not and would expect you already know, that the 'best way to get to mars was to goto the moon first and launch from there' It wasn't one of those bush moments, because the head of NASA came out the next day and repeated the whole thing. With these people in charge, nobody is going anywhere. and omg the americans restart from square one every time they get a new president, it's like watching a goldfish try to remember where they were up to with their space program. Heartbreaking no doubt. Penyulap talk 12:46, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Perfection doesn't exist in engineering. Because it costs less money to transport six astronauts in one craft than in does two, and it simplifies space station design. Pen you really need to learn more about the Shuttle missions if you think half of crew were joy riders. The long duration crew size capability of the ISS is seven. Do you think Buran would be flying into space with no payloads? They are not rebuilding the Soyuz. Although I don't support it but getting to Mars from the Moon is a popular view within the aerospace community, but I don't believe Bush mentioned this method in his Vision for Space Exploration and I would like a source saying other wise.--Craigboy (talk) 14:12, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Spacecraft assembled and provisioned on the moon could escape its far lower gravity using far less energy, and thus, far less cost.

— Epic Accounting Fail. Encyclopedia of epic accounting fails Google search, pp 55-57.
Maybe perfection doesn't exist but there is no shortage of EPIC FAIL. It doesn't cost less to transport 6 than it does 3, it's a common misconception actually. It is a fair true statement, but only at certain points in time, right now, sending 2 lots of 3 on a Soyuz is cheaper than the russian ppts ever will be. The ppts cannot win out over Soyuz until a point in time that is far distant, and on only one set of possible continuums. The development costs compared to individual purchased of Soyuz flights is a loser for ages. The cost savings cannot kick in for decades yet, assuming there are cost savings. Thing is, there is no correlation between the cost of a launch vehicle and it's payload capacity when it comes to human flight, if there is, I'd love to see it plotted on a graph. That would be a nice thing for an article. If you want joyriders, then Buran illustrates for you what the NASA shuttle is not clear on. Because the ROS assembles itself, then 10 crewmembers seriously have nothing whatsoever to do, and no destination. Rassvet needs 7 people to deliver it ? well, maybe a few extra in comparison to the soyuz delivering it. Kurs is a no brainer timesaver compared to canadarm2 and a shuttle. Yep, the ROS method is a spectacular win, 1,000 hours the shuttle editors estimate, compared to a few hours max to supervise all the assembly dockings that took place. Anyhow, it's no secret the Russians get better value for money in their space budget compared to the americans, I think though, it's the chinese that are the ones to watch in the decades to come. ARGH, everything is too slow!!!!! Penyulap talk 21:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
" whats to learn from the ISS that 921 and tiangong 3 heavy don't already demonstrate ?"
What's Tiangong-3 heavy?
--Craigboy (talk) 05:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
i meant css, sorry, I often called it that before. The what's to learn means if the US is trying to cover up it's homework so that China can't copy the answers, where is the logic in that ? Because the Tiangong testbeds already are as advanced as skylab, and the Russians and Chinese freely exchange all other technology, and the Chinese are working on their indigenous 3rd Generation project, so what can they copy ? ESA and the US are catching up to Russia making their own atmospheric reprocessing, China has station GNC testbeds, I'm not seeing much that they can benefit that the Russians wouldn't give them for just asking. Maybe there is something I am missing.Penyulap talk 06:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
The large orbital station hasn't been built yet. They're not trying to protect slylab level technology from the Chinese.--Craigboy (talk) 09:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
That's exactly what I mean, what is there to protect ? The technology for the css is pretty straightforward for them they've done T-1 now, and seriously, wow, there you go, they can build the whole thing. Next is to furnish the inside with critical systems, and who is good at that ? their friends, the Russians. Simple. what's to protect. If there will be any copying of answers the Russians would be deliberately allowing China to copy off them, holding up their paper, they've been doing it all along, like in the css article.. Penyulap talk 09:32, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Uh no... Pen you realize there's a reason they're not going straight from Tiangong-1 to the large orbital station?--Craigboy (talk) 22:23, 27 January 2012
Because everything goes too slow in space development, I'm sure they're doing it just to annoy me. We should all be living in deep space by now, or at least I'd like to. :) Penyulap talk 23:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

A term they generally dislike[edit]

I put that one back in, initially I left it out because I had to shove in so many refs for it, that it would ugly up the article, so I just left it out. I didn't know how to do notes, (I probably still don't actually) anyhow, I put it back in, and wrestled until I got the notes thing looking ok. Let me know if it seems ok to you. I think I left out one, but that's ok too, as it's generally, rather than always, and I can't care to find out or telephone the guy :) Penyulap talk 10:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


Hi Penyulap. I had to deny the transfer of File:Isshtv120090917200858nm.jpg from here to Commons, as Commons cannot accept "word of mouth" permissions for files, and technically they are not accepted here, either. You will need to get in touch with the author, and have them send an email to OTRS stating the filename and that they release the image under a particular license or into the public domain. Full instructions can be found at Commons:OTRS, and I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have. Thanks. Huntster (t @ c) 10:17, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, I have checked my email and found a delivery failure, well buried too, I have sent Ralf Vandebergh another request and expect it won't be too long before he replies, I'd say give it a few weeks, as he might travel, or not, I don't know what his schedule is. To put your mind at ease a little, I had organized through Ralf for his portrait to be released, it's on his article page. It's not a self-portrait, but it's the one he suggested and sent to me, and it looked fine in my opinion for inclusion. So he is keeping in touch with me and it shouldn't take too long. Something I brought up in the email I just sent is the option of people giving me permission to act on their behalf in these cases, do you know what form I can send to them for that, so I can release their pictures as I see fit, that would simplify things I think. Chris peat from Heavens-above is just like yep go for it, anything I like from his site, so it would be good if I get a once only form for these people, and they can suggest to me conversationally what they'd like to do, rather than use the forms all the time. Penyulap talk 11:48, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Check out Commons:Email templates for ideas on the wording for those emails. For situations where the author states everything on his website (that he created, of course) can be used, he can include such a statement through OTRS as well. Typically, a special-use template is create on Commons for such instances, such as Template:Images by Rob Lavinsky or Template:AntWeb permission. Huntster (t @ c) 11:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Update, after not hearing from Ralf for one month, I re-sent an email, as I had predicted he was busy over the break and may have overlooked the email in the rush (his inbox overflowed). I shall forward his response, which contains the correctly filled out form to the proper place. Thanks Huntster. Penyulap talk 23:21, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
I have forwarded his response to commons. Penyulap talk 23:34, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Update, a volunteer from permissions-nl at wikimedia responded that there is no file of that name on commons, well I was a bit silly, because I forgot or didn't know that it's not on commons yet, it's on english wiki. I've responded to the email explaining the situation and await their response. Penyulap talk 22:52, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Penyulap![edit]

I was looking at ISS article, particulary this section, and I think it's a good idea to make clickable version for some of its images, by labeling them like this one, also we can make clickable areas with a different method (yeah, cool! I made some before, see this one) -- using ImageMap MediaWiki extension (itself uses the <map> tag). I like doing these sort of things so if you think it is useful just say the word and I'll come to assist. --Z 01:00, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict, we both went after that 'I') OMG you're my new bestest friend. I've been crying out all over the page for help there, and labeling all the piccies in three or more languages, YOUR IDEA IS AN OUTRAGE to all the shit work I've been doing so far. Please, we so need it because it's really easy to change labels that are not in the image itself to suit all the different wikipedia languages as well, 77 last time I counted, but some of those are beyond hope. (Wikipedia is not a concept that translates into many cultures for reasons I won't go into.) Choosing the image is the interesting part, because we need super hires ones that zoom in, because I can label all the dohickies and whatsimacallits and thingamabobs on the outside of the station and ships too. But lets start with something simple I guess. It's hard to find one for all the pressurized modules, except when the station is viewed from it's underside ! And Kibō is so camera shy all we can come up with is this here at the top, to show her on orbit. Blah! The File:Russian Orbital Segment.png pic is an awesome choice, it's used across a few articles. Craigboy, and if we can treat the poor bloke with a bit more respect, Leebrandoncremer, are experts with images and so forth. But how about TheAnarcat pic in the structure section, is that one a cool place to start off ? (darn, something wrong and I can't load it atm) anyhow, if it's as hires as i recall, maybe it's the place to start, what do you think, where would you like to start, and how can I help, besides 200% support of course? Penyulap talk 01:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

TheAnarcat pic is brilliant, and I just realize we don't need to zoom the pics, as we can easily add links same as any other links, to separate more detailed pics, easy ! Penyulap talk 02:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
The Solvay Conference, that is exactly it, that is brilliant work. Precisely what we need. Precisely. The article has been crying out for this since the beginning of time. Penyulap talk 02:36, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Wow I didn't guess that it may be so usefull really, well, it is very easy to do, firstly we need blank versions (without texts) of those two images you mentioned, File:Russian Orbital Segment.png (this one looks ok) and File:Iss027e036656-commented-20110608.svg. Can you do that please? Then we can work on the templates. I think ROS is easier to do so lets start with it. I also made a sample here (just wanted to show you we can change anything--font sizes, colors, discriptions, etc.) --Z 05:43, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Useful ? are you kidding ? this is like 5 Christmases all at once, it's unbelievable, we will finally be able to clean up that crappy article, I mean, the work people have put in is great, but lets face it, with your skill on board, it'll be proper encyclopedic material. That image you look for is here and the ROS is going fine.

Now my other genius idea is that the links don't just goto the different articles, but they goto different images, so you've got click to zoom, which takes you to different pictures and different portions of the station. Have you seen something called google streetview ? you click links that move you up and down the street. Now that is what I'm talking about. A dam good article. should be plenty of inspiration there for everyone. Penyulap talk 06:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm actually trying to use the both methods in one! So the articles would be opened by clicking on the labels, and if people click on different parts of the ROS they will go to the related image. I finally found the tool which I was seeking, made by Dapete, now just copy this line:


and paste it in User:Penyulap/common.js and save the page, then open File:Russian Orbital Segment.png (only Firefox and IE are supported) and you will see "ImageMapEdit >" just under the picture (clear cache if needed), then click on it, I know you will find out how to use it with a little fiddling with it (use both left and right click to define a new area) tell me if you need any help! --Z 09:52, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Sweet. yes, sorry to doubt you there. I'll have a look at the ts as soon as I am back online. Thanks! Penyulap talk 10:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
No problem, see you! --Z 10:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I hope you enjoy it! You know, I have a lot of ideas about this project, based on your genius idea we even can make something like Google maps, it's a quite unique thing in the Wikipedia and I really would like to implement it soon, people can explore the station just like they do it with earth in Google maps, it would be a great thing, wait what I'm taking about, I came to talk about the image, I know there may be some errors in it, I've learned a bit about these subjects, but still can't fully understand the structure of even this component, so it is good to check it yourself. This was just a start, we can work on the station layout after that. --Z 23:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

And the Image Map Editor, it is very easy to use -- click on that "ImageMapEdit >" in image's page, somethings would appear now, then click on "rectangle" so a new area would be created and now we should set a couple of coordinates: (1) the top left one, by left click and (2) the bottom right one, by right click. when the wrk is down, scroll down a bit and the generated code is there. --Z 23:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

OMG! I am so taking this to the talkpage, this is SO INCREDIBLE I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!! Penyulap talk 23:25, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok, so some polish, the rectangles for the soyuz and progress can be larger to envelope the whole ships, they are black with white tails. The top one, and the one on the right hand side are soyuz the other two are robot progress ships. the part in the dead centre of the picture is part of the Zvezda module. And the click to go inside almost killed me, it is the best part of the lot !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Penyulap talk 23:33, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Oh and the docking node on the far right is also a part of Zarya. The messy historical version of the picture I did is a good guide. Penyulap talk 23:35, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Some of the image editor I could understand, I fiddled about with an image of the little robot called dextre, but I figure I need to read up on the docks to get the links and hover over text right. You seem to have got that all perfected, I should never have doubted you there. Also in the picture there are the little kurs antennas, I can tell you where they are, there are two kinds, one kind we can call 'kurs station antenna' and the other kind we can call 'kurs ship antenna'. now on the picture, looking at the vertical line of ships and modules, you can notice sticking out the left hand side there are 4 little do-Hickies. they are all spaced out evenly in a line. they are 'kurs ship antennas' and they are the parts you'll find easiest of all. Now for the kurs station antennas, you'll only see two of them easily. They are spaced between the other antennas. Between the top two you can see a faint little thing, and that's a 'kurs station antenna' there is another one in the mirror position at the bottom, between the two bottommost kurs ship antennas. The remaining two you can't see on the photo, but you should make them just the same, if you draw a straight line just in your mind through all of those antennas, then the place where it hits the hull of zvezda is the location of the two remaining antennas. This would be a really cool thing to explain to people. (There are other kurs antennas in the pics on those ships, but we won't worry for just now) Penyulap talk 23:58, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Welsh dragon.svg

Can't wait to spread this about through the other languages too ! Oh yeah, I LOVE this idea. Penyulap talk 00:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining, I found six of them but am not sure about the two other (also you can modify that too by importing the code of ROS template into to the ImageMapEditor) and I think we need a zoom feature so people can more easily find/see and click on these small things (I'm working on it) --Z 20:45, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Outstanding, I have linked two of the images together, the one you did, and another when you click on pirs in yours. I am working on Template:Zvezda aft there are so many little things to label, and it won't matter which ones you can find or can't. There is a quote from a movie "If you build it, they will come" and that is the case for this one. There are for example, a lot of little religious pictures in zvezda, so I shall ask what they are, also I noticed a sticker that celebrates Saint Petersberg, and there are magic markers, and Photo lenses too. So people will help identify all sorts of things, cameras, computers, photos, actually it'll be nice if we can find enough experts still remaining on wiki to label the experiments. I have a feeling that MLM42 would be only too happy to fill more pages with discussion, but only if they are about me and not about wikiproject spaceflight matters, so I won't bother to ask, but you are most welcome to help out mlm42. Anyhow, there are plenty of images to poke at, and we are bound to find advice on how and where to organize them too, so lets just have fun. This is so where the party is at right now. I've been able to get the editor to work some places, and others I've annoyed it a little as it didn't seem to open first time, but there is not a problem, I'll find out why it is glitchy at some point. This is so cool. 100 % agree about the zoom, we'll work it out, or help shall be offered, so don't worry. Penyulap talk 21:08, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

here are some dodgy links and or labels, need lots of scrubbing up, but may show this or that or be of some use. -pen circle 620 582 20 [[Kurs|Kurs ship antenna]] circle 622 474 10 [[Kurs|Kurs ship antenna]] circle 617 350 10 [[Kurs|Kurs ship antenna]] circle 609 241 20 [[Kurs|Kurs ship antenna]] circle 629 764 20 [[Kurs|Kurs ship antenna]] circle 620 59 20 [[Kurs|Kurs ship antenna]] circle 972 637 15 [[Kurs|Kurs ship antenna]] circle 611 531 20 [[Kurs|Kurs station antenna]] circle 611 290 20 [[Kurs|Kurs station antenna]] circle 619 455 8 [[Kurs|Kurs station antenna]] circle 619 369 8 [[Kurs|Kurs station antenna]] circle 976 605 7 [[Kurs|Kurs station antenna]] poly 939 500 983 500 983 509 963 517 972 548 963 554 [[NASA space shuttle|mounting brackets for NASA space shuttle]] poly 967 572 930 585 941 594 989 594 972 582 [[NASA space shuttle|mounting brackets for NASA space shuttle]] poly 1040 592 1058 572 1084 589 1080 598 [[NASA space shuttle|mounting brackets for NASA space shuttle]] poly 1044 498 1083 500 1055 557 1049 548 1055 515 1041 512 [[NASA space shuttle|mounting brackets for NASA space shuttle]] poly 333 472 332 427 336 389 329 384 336 350 375 335 492 342 546 367 600 367 612 383 639 387 649 381 691 384 694 438 639 433 609 441 591 453 595 395 575 381 483 420 481 466 398 467 395 400 386 361 361 359 370 416 370 467 [[Zvezda SM|Zvezda Service module, life support, station's bridge with avionics(guidance navigation) propulsion, 2 crew quarters, kitchen.]] poly 396 469 372 469 370 413 393 413 395 443 383 443 376 449 383 457 393 458 390 398 370 398 362 372 386 372 [[Zvezda SM|Zvezda Service module, life support, station's bridge with avionics(guidance navigation) propulsion, 2 crew quarters, kitchen.]] circle 386 450 10 [[Zvezda SM|Window]] poly 302 376 329 386 329 342 305 341 [[Zvezda SM|antenna]] poly 486 467 517 460 591 453 589 398 514 432 486 435 483 452 [[Zvezda SM|Zvezda Service module, life support, station's bridge with avionics(guidance navigation) propulsion, 2 crew quarters, kitchen.]] poly 481 424 574 384 589 396 509 432 [[Solar array]] poly 847 375 887 467 955 438 916 347 [[Solar array]] poly 171 384 210 378 264 384 304 379 333 393 332 433 292 446 264 438 234 444 170 440 136 450 128 413 133 370 [[Progress spacecraft|Progress robot spacecraft]] poly 128 298 179 301 187 372 179 379 157 383 139 370 [[Solar array]] poly [[Solar array]] poly 151 453 173 444 197 450 211 518 162 521 [[Solar array]] poly 913 736 972 743 976 759 972 782 915 774 [[Solar array]] poly 1033 747 1030 782 1115 787 1109 745 [[Solar array]] poly 972 589 993 594 996 605 1040 602 1047 571 1041 537 1043 501 1052 489 1052 469 1032 449 989 447 969 472 972 495 983 511 973 524 [[Rassvet|Rassvet dock and mini science module]] poly 697 441 742 470 884 474 845 375 895 356 740 353 694 384 [[Zarya spacecraft|Zarya, first module, replaces Polyus, cargo bay, fuel storage, original propulsion, guidance and navigation.]] poly 890 469 955 467 984 443 1027 440 1040 427 1041 389 1006 392 992 390 986 370 959 364 966 356 922 355 955 438 955 441 [[Zarya spacecraft|Zarya, first module, replaces Polyus, cargo bay, fuel storage, original propulsion, guidance and navigation.]]

Archive SOPA talk[edit]

Is the auto-archive for Talk:Stop Online Piracy Act still working? The Talk page is now over 200k bytes, which is very long indeed. I see many discussions that are much older than five days, (as an example the Proposed Blackout section ended on Jan 19th) so that's why I thought things weren't working. 5 days is long enough, and I understand it's a popular and controversial topic, but I just wanted to make sure that Miszabot was working right. Please fix if not. Thanks, Jessemv (talk) 17:24, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is working, there is also manual archiving of the page occuring, and there is the other thing where there are open questions that have no answers. Archiving is meant to clear up a page of things that are not needed anymore, but there are a lot of things that still need addressing. Anyhow, Sloggerbum, Kranix and I, but mostly Sloggerbum, have been fiddling with the archiving, sloggerbum set up archives and manually filed things away, Kranix polished up archive names and so forth, I set up the automatic archiving. Now the thing to remember, is that archiving is never meant to supress a converstaion. That's not it's purpose. Some people try to fiddle with it to get rid of conversations they don't like, I find it quite funny really. You can undo archiving by clicking undo on the talkpage and the archivepage and then either comment on the converstaion to keep it open or use a template called do not archive until. If you have any problems just ask I am happy to help.
The talkpage was a very busy one, so it was long, and it's actually 14 days but someone fiddled with the label is all. I shuffled around sections so they were easier to find on the table of contents, I shall have another look and tidy it as soon as I have a few moments. Penyulap talk 10:24, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanations, and best of luck to your fixing it all up. I completely agree that archiving rates should be reigned in if they are impacting conversations or open questions. It's just that it was long and there was a lot to scroll through is all. Thanks, Jessemv (talk) 18:03, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


Bento at Hanabishi, Koyasan.jpg Thanks for kickstarting the great intro cleanup at Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement! I think some yummy dead fish is very well deserved. Sloggerbum (talk) 01:08, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Aw crap, I found a new one (Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership), here's EFF's take. This one desperately needs an intro overhaul too, right now its just historical info in intro, no overview of content or controversy. Interested? Sloggerbum (talk) 01:28, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
I swear I haven't done it yet, I didn't have time, this makes me feel so guilty that I'll go and cleanup that article as soon as I have a moment to spare. Hmmph. Ah! so thats the plan... Smart thinking ! :) Penyulap talk 10:09, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Owch I had a look at the article and yes, it IS as bad as I thought, someone just pointed out how crap it is on the talkpage, I will get to work, but I don't have a great deal of time right now, I shall make some time asap. That link you put there is really good, I can use very similar wording to summarize, it's awesome. Penyulap talk 10:13, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

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You assuming there's an APAS mechanism on Zvevda

The Zarya and Zvezda ones would have slight mission-specific mods, Penyulap

Zvezda does not have an APAS mechanism, and Zarya only has one (which connects it to USOS).Craigboy (talk) 01:05, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

(inserted text) Yep, your right there, one point to Craigboy :) Penyulap talk

You assuming there are "lots" of different versions of APAS and your "penyulap skills" telling you they are all pretty much compatible.

there are lots of different versions [of APAS], Penyulap

There really is only three.Craigboy (talk) 01:05, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Three is lots. besides, I'm sure there are other versions we don't know of offhand. Plus my penyulap skills tell me that the different versions are pretty much compatible, and we won't find it referenced either way, not easily. Penyulap 03:00, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
No Pen, these were the only three ever used. APAS-75 in no way would be able to dock with APAS-89, the petals are completely different, the diameters are different and the hooks don't line up. Not to mention the last APAS-75 docking was in 1975, and the first APAS-89 docking was in 1993. And there would be no reason for APAS-89/95 to be compatible with APAS-75 because it wasn't even in use after 1976.Craigboy (talk) 04:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

(inserted text) Naa, Jury is still out on that one. There are lots more besides those, some with fancy names some only on paper, like for Buran. The pinouts for the connectors would use mission specific designations, pipes and tubes and stuff would vary (if there are any) according to mission. Penyulap talk

There's variations within the the three, but not a lot. I don't consider paper ideas worth noting because of the near endless amount of proposed modifications to any space hardware. I don't think designation means what you think it does. Expand of the mission specific modifications you think exist.Craigboy (talk)
(more on this below) Penyulap talk

You assuming APAS-75 is compatible with APAS-89/95.

You could call it 'apas compatible' but every version of APAS is apas compatiblePenyulap

Only APAS-75 is not.Craigboy (talk) 01:05, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Oh I'm thinking it is myself. Wasn't that the one used on that whole Apollo-Soyuz (Or reversed in Russian, as Soyuz-Apolla, lol) mission thing. There was like one Russian designed APAS-75 on each craft and the whole thing went down smooth, without any embarassing moments in space where they found out that APAS-75 was not APAS compatible ? Penyulap 03:00, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

(inserted text) hey wait, your assuming I'm assuming 75 and 89 are compatible. I'm saying every one they make joins up to something, that's for a start. like the soyuz and the apollo ones. you know, no embarassing moments. but here...

(hey wow, I just saw how long this section is, WOW, this is amazing !) Umm, ok, compatible in the way there'd be fewer variations on the mechanical parts, so you could get one meant for one mission and slam it into another for some other mission, and they'd dock and hold, but the wiring wouldn't work. Like that, not all of them though, but fewer mechanical 'strike plate' variations than connector variations (electrical or liquid, gas options). Penyulap talk

APAS can't transfer liquid. The connectors for any APAS-89/95 mechanism would match to themselves. There's really only three sub variations, one with soft docking latches and pressure seals (Space Shuttle), one with soft docking latches but no pressure seals (Krystall) and one with no soft docking latches and no pressure seal (PMA-2,PMA-3, Zarya).--Craigboy (talk) 13:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
'APAS can't transfer liquid.' will be proven wrong in future. Androgynous systems are not going out of style anytime soon, and refueling and re-gassing are the norm for many craft. I think the different perspective here is causing the trouble. I see APAS as an abbreviation of Androgynous Peripheral Assembly System, a generic term, but your limiting yourself to the period of '75<->'15 ? So for you it's like a trademarked name, for me it's just Androgynous. Would that be about right ? Not that we are wrong, but that we are seeing things from those different perspectives. Penyulap talk
I didn't say APAS couldn't modified to support liquid transfer. APAS is not a generic term for androgynous docking systems.--Craigboy (talk) 08:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
What would you call it then ? I managed "Bisexual" and we couldn't use that as a technical generic term. Androgynous Peripheral Assembly System is pretty good. Penyulap talk
You could just call other androgynous docking mechanisms simply androgynous docking mechanisms. I hope you're not offend by me asking but is not English not your first language, because if its not then I can totally understand why you're getting hung up on this.--Craigboy (talk) 11:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm not offended, but I haven't mentioned the answer to the personal question anywhere I don't think. However it is fair and true to say that there are a number of factors that make communications somewhat difficult with some native english speaking editors, but with very many that is not the case. I do think I can reach further across language barriers than most people I've seen on English wiki, I have very many times rescued and translated comments by other editors where people have labeled their comments as vandalism or some such because they didn't understand what was being communicated. 'Language barriers' are something people can create between themselves and another person who speaks the same language a perfect example is say, an artist and an engineer, or soldier and priest, it is easy for them to give up on each other and say 'I have no idea what he is trying to say'. Or if you take a businessman and strand him in the middle of a ghetto he can't speak the same language and will be misinterpreted. I can communicate with people who wish to communicate, but some people don't want to. (probably why some ISS editors can't see any other editors who disagree with them for years). Docking isn't really the same as Peripheral Assembly is it though, it's somewhat different. I'd generally think that docking is more a Soyuz kind of thing although yes they use a probe, and assembly is more a module to module assembly thing. Penyulap talk
So are you a native English speaker?--Craigboy (talk) 17:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

You assuming that APAS mechanism was used in over 200 dockings when that's obviously not the case.

Two ways, One as a simple indicator that the APAS system is used for other things rather than just the shuttle. Recall if you will STS-135 was the last mission, so 200 dockings can't have been performed by the NASA shuttle even if every one of it's trips went to the ISS. It's a fair indication that there is more to the story. Instant indication that there is more to be researched. Two, as for the peacock term, I'd say 'many is understated' if after all many is the wrong word to describe 200 dockings, what would be said of the shuttle docking system ? it's seldom-used ? that wouldn't go down well with readers. I'm thinking whatever the shuttle uses has been used 'many times' and something that has been used more often than that can have a 'many' or something even better. Penyulap 02:47, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Pen its a bad source. The 200 dockings statement probably wasn't even meant to be about APAS, how could it be? Since APAS was mostly only used for the Shuttle program. The 200 dockings probably meant to be about the Probe/Drogue system. Many was only a peacock term for "...China, Europe and Russia have a co-operative relationship in many space exploration projects" because they have only done a few missions together.Craigboy (talk) 04:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
This is an agent moulder moment, research Craigboy, because 'the truth is out there' C 06:26, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
And you shouldn't be looking for it from an author who has no history on writing articles on spaceflight.Craigboy (talk) 07:12, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

(inserted text) Hey, I totally had a cite for that and everything, you know, the nice old man who died and all, if your going to try and tell me there are less than 200 dockings, you go get a cite, fair is fair. Penyulap talk

You had a cite that had almost no correct info. The 200 number is so huge its laughable. Do you know how many missions used APAS?--Craigboy (talk) 13:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
See below Penyulap talk
APAS is not a generic term for androgynous docking systems.--Craigboy (talk) 08:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
nor is "Bisexual" a good term for Androgynous Peripheral Assembly System. Penyulap talk
See above.--Craigboy (talk) 11:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
-(')-(')- Penyulap talk

You assuming that Zarya forward is a usable docking port, you assuming a docking adapter could be built and launched in three months.

Sweet, but only if you find a proper ref that says they can't be uncovered, or new ones can't be sent in preparation for the Chinese visit, or new arrangements cannot be made in preparation for the Chinese visit. Then and only then the statement 'the Chinese could dock in future' would be incorrect. If the Chinese and the Europeans or the Chinese and the Russians especially wanted to do a Apollo-Soyuz historic handshake in space they could do it in 3 months prep time, but why bother ? there is no big rift to cross. They don't go boasting about what is possible they just get on with doing it, with small announcements of what they are about to do. Saying this and that is possible is not their style, for either of these superpowers. Penyulap 02:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

If the Zarya is disconnected from PMA-1, than it would no longer be the International Space Station. Russia uses different docking ports so they're not compatible like the source says. "Then and only then the statement 'the Chinese could dock in future' would be incorrect." No because it can dock with USOS. You would not be able to build and launch an adapter in three months.Craigboy (talk) 04:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

(inserted text) Zarya forward IS a usable docking port, and it IS being used. Naturally if you want to dock a few chinese modules or craft to it, you'd want to jettison the USOS first. It's an alarming idea for sure, and would possibly come as a surprise to anyone in Kibo at the time (I don't think there is a button on the Zvezda console for it. I wonder if they could try to grab the ROS with a robot arm on the USOS before their air ran out?), but hey, jettisoning the USOS is an option that has been tossed about a number of times in end-of-mission planning. Plenty of times where NASA funding is looking less than stellar, they've considered abandoning the project, how many times has that happened ? Then the Russians think what options do we have ? They can either come up with a shiny new space station at short notice and limited budgets or they can keep on using the ROS, which is designed for refurbishment. (though I think it'd get just as ratty and dilapidated as MIR was eventually, but it'd do until they got something better on orbit)

3 months prep time IS enough, WHEN there is a burning need for it. Docking ports don't need to take forever to slap together, the Russians have done complete missions in short times like that, to celebrate past events I think. The Russians and Chinese are good friends. Flight time between the two countries is short, the engineers are known for working together well (Phobos) so arranging a different docking port on the shenzhou is not going to take a million years. Pack up a bit of equipment and Russian engineers, send em over with a kurs or two and whatever else is required and there you go.

THe whole 'the Chinese could dock in future' is a broad unqualified statement which is far too easy to make true. I suggested 3 months, they can take 10 years and it's still true. Penyulap talk

Its not usable because a module is berthed there and cannot be berthed anywhere else. Zarya is not meant to be re-used, ISS funding is secured through 2020. I thought you referring adding a docking adapter to the ISS?
Is there an American presidential election before 2020 ? If there is, and there is a new president, it's harder to say, as each end every president turns the whole space program upside down. (btw if you use three little squiggles instead of four to sign with it leaves the date off) Penyulap talk
Its extremely unlikely any president would abandon the ISS before 2020.--Craigboy (talk) 02:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Don't go their girlfriend. That is a Craigboy wild assumption right there. :) I love it, but when has there ever been a presidential decision in America that Americans ever liked ?
But ok, I'll go along with it, (sarcasm) the next US President won't make any bad decisions or dissapoint the public in any way, or at least it's 100% unlikely. would you believe 'Its extremely unlikely', how about 'most probable', no, 'wait and see' ? hmm.. Penyulap talk
Has there been any talk of abandoning it before then?--Craigboy (talk) 08:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
They save that up for after the election, but you may mean have they mentioned it already, well yes many times there is discussion on that, everytime there is any kind of crisis and so forth. but it's just talk. Penyulap talk
Do you have a source?--Craigboy (talk) 11:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
I'll go look for some. hey you haven't commented on the good stuff we have done yet ! Penyulap talk

You defending information that has been verified as being incorrect and you showing strong bias

His highly reliable electromechanical systems, which included the Androgynous Peripheral Assembly System, the proper name of the docking system, in addition to onboard manipulators and reusable solar arrays, are among the jewels of the Russian space program.

His docking system was first tried out on unmanned spacecraft in 1967 or 1968, he told the publication Space News, then on two manned capsules in 1969. It successfully docked more than 200 missions and has never had a failure in space

— [2]
The source is inaccurate which is why you should avoid non-space flight publications. APAS-75 was the first APAS mechanism but it wasn't used until the 1974 (unmanned test for the Apollo-Soyuz mission). The manned mission your quote is mentioning Soyuz 4/Soyuz 5, this used a very early version of the Russian Probe and Drogue (which Vladimir Syromyatnikov also worked on) that is used today.Craigboy (talk) 00:58, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong with the source, it is clear the person has done more research into APAS and is a better source than if the front page of the NASA website itself said "APAS was used to dock the shuttle to the ISS". A well researched point made by some little person beats a misleading half-truth from the NASA website. Penyulap 02:25, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Pen are you serious? They got many basic things wrong (and the author is by no means an expert on the subject, but yet you take here word but not that of the engineers at Boeing). Your politcal ideolgies seem to be getting in the way of your objectivism.Craigboy (talk) 04:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes I'm serious, Patricia is giving lots of leads and facts you can use to do further checking. Thats great. The Boeing 'engineers' as you call them, use the word 'clone' in a manner that defines the text book dictionary definition of 'unsubstantiated claim' it's an offhanded insult or a sloppy guess at best. Penyulap 06:00, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

(inserted text) Biased? everyone is biased in some way, how do you mean ? which way ? I'm not saying the washington post or Patricia is particularly great, I'm just saying what craft is she referring to back in 67 and 68. I'm thinking there is a craft back then which uses an APAS docking system.

Where I think were on different pages is that you only want to recognize some of the APAS mechs as APAS mechs. APAS is like saying 'Bisexual' so 'Chris-75' and 'kim-89' are both bisexual, but they are not the only ones. There were bisexuals back in 67 and 68, 'Vlad' and 'boris' if you like. You can't just say there aren't 200 APAS because you can only find Chris and Kim, or only Chris and Kim are bi. Penyulap talk

Pen, you have no idea what you're talking about.--Craigboy (talk) 13:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I think you mean you have no idea what I'm talking about. I know what I'm talking about, I have ready access to the ideas inside my head. It's a matter of explaining them to you, that is all. The APAS don't come in 'male or female' kind of versions do they, so if you have 3 89's they can each dock with each other, yes ? other systems have separate kinds, plug and socket kind of thing where plugs don't fit to plugs they fit only to sockets. like that, yes ? so far so good ? Penyulap talk
There was no APAS in the 60s. It was first used in 74' as a test for the ASTP. APAS is not a general term for a androgynous docking system. There were no androgynous docking mechanisms in the the 60s. There are sub-variations of APAS that are not truly androgynous (Krstall, PMA-2, PMA-3, Tiangong-1 if you consider that to be APAS).--Craigboy (talk) 02:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Well I don't know enough about their lunar docking mechs, except they weren't probe type. I'd say though, if we go for a consensus between saying that APAS was used just for the NASA shuttle, which isn't true, and how many Androgynous mechs there were, which is hard to cite (there were like 8 Burans built for one that flew, so how many APAS mechs were made for all the different programs and all the different craft is like anyone's guess) and sum up with what is clear we'll have it.
Something like the spaceflight now line "The Shenzhou docking collar is similar to the Russian-designed APAS system, which was used in the joint U.S.-Soviet Apollo-Soyuz Test Project, the assembly of the Russian space station Mir and by space shuttles visiting the International Space Station." is I think a pretty ok summary, although it leaves out Buran. Actually I think that the Nasa shuttle used the exact mech and module that was designed for Buran to dock to Mir wasn't it? But we can just stick to mentioning flown variants of the APAS system, as people like the orbital brightline (Although someone did change the lede of the ISS from an orbital brightline to a habitable brightline, which was cool, and I never argued the point, as it is still true). We can stick it into a note if you like, so it saves space in the article, and in the china section we could just put "similar to APAS" although it IS an Androgynous mech, without a doubt, when you look at APAS being an acronym for a generic description of a mech. But when you name a mech, saying '75 then it is specific to that mech, and then you can't say the chinese use an '89, you CAN say they use an APAS, but it would be a 'Shenzhou APAS' for sure, or whatever their academy is calling it. Penyulap talk
The Kontakt docking system was non-androgynous. I never said the fully androgynous variant of APAS-89/95 was used only for the Shuttle, I listed the Shuttle because it was the most recognizable, since Soyuz only flew with the APAS-89 system once. "The Shenzhou docking collar is similar to the Russian-designed APAS system, which was used in the joint U.S.-Soviet Apollo-Soyuz Test Project". It's much more similar to the APAS-89/95 docking collar.--Craigboy (talk) 08:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, I think it's kind of more respectful to not to give the impression that (the Nasa shuttle) was the reason it was invented. The above would address that, but it's good to mention both at least, or the three or so you can think of in a note, depending where it is. Penyulap talk
I wasn't talking about the article, I was trying to explain it to you.--Craigboy (talk) 11:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Oh ok. Penyulap talk
Also, if you notice a distinct bias, what would you say is the direction of the difference between us, because it's good for editors to compliment each other, I like it. I think that many editors are kind of NASA fans, I am too, but also have a wider view, like Japanese and Russian and so forth, I think it helps fill in the gaps in a global picture. Like with the origins section mentioned below. Would you think that is it ? or I'm too into humor, and that it's more a Russian humor than American ? Penyulap talk
I don't understand.--Craigboy (talk) 08:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
I might not understand what you mean by 'and you showing strong bias' Penyulap talk
Bias has a negative meaning associated with it but you took it as a compliment.--Craigboy (talk) 11:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Oh, well, I can't see it that way easily though, because by definition everyone IS biased, there is no getting around that. Without biased editors who can communicate and co-operate you get only one narrow point of view. When you combine many biased viewpoints you get a fuller better picture of something. There is a story about a group of 5 blind men and one elephant they come across when they are walking, the first one feels the elephant and says it's like a tree, it's thick and round and solid coming up out of the ground, the next takes a feel and says, no it's like a big fan it's thin and large and moves through the air quickly keeping me cool, the next says no, it's like a snake, it's round and long and flexible and curls back upon itself. The other said it's large like a stone of such a large size, and another said, no it's small like a cord i can hold it in my hand it's hairy at the end. (he had the tail) So who was correct ? who can describe it the best ? which one is the expert ? I will have a look at those refs in a little while and find the (easy) ones you request too. Penyulap talk

You assuming Shenzhou can't be manually docked and a few other things.

It'll never happen, but that's the place [the Chinese] would [dock] if they could, because that's the place all the autodockings are made, and all the docking collars are proper. Anything the Americans are coming up with themselves, well, they'll be the only ones who use it nasa and it's commercial carriers that's all. Everyone else goes Russian. (well jaxa doesn't do dockings as yet).Penyulap 17:22, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

"Everyone else" is only ESA. JAXA has no intentions of docking to the station, if they did than the ISS partners would loose the large hatch diameter that berthing allows. The United States is responsible for transporting JAXA and ESA astronauts to the station since their modules are a portion of the USOS side, currently the United States is paying Russia for their transportation to the ISS. After Commercial Crew comes online, Soyuz will only be transporting Russian astronauts.Craigboy (talk) 18:21, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
(oops I replied to your quote of yourself) And privateers ! :) (wrong term, but more dramatic, let's take the station lads!) JAXA is so interesting, because where are they going next ? it's the same as the US without all the talking. It seems unfortunate there is no announced successor (correct me if I am wrong) to the Kibo success. Do you think it's because of their alliances ? (talk) 11:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, everyone else at this moment in the time continuum is only ESA, because there is no autodock capability on the USOS and no plans whatsoever to make it (correct me if I'm wrong). The only real addition to the autodock family could be China, and the rest of the autodock family is exclusively RS, so why would china not join them ? Penyulap talk

(inserted text) No I'm not, I'm saying the ROS is where the party is at, didn't you see that video I added to the external links, where they make Yuri look like he is dancing at a club somewhere even though he is made of cement, and are all butt slapping and so on ? The Americans can't stand the Chinese, they refuse, by law, to buy them a cheeseburger if they come and visit a NASA site, it's ILLEGAL to buy them a cheeseburger. (I wonder if fried rice is ok?, they might like that, or some Peking duck, yummmm Peking duck) Russia and China are good friends, Phobos, Chinese space program and so on. Where else would they possibly dock ? on the external platform of kibo and then come through the experiment airlock ? :)

Mark my words, if they do dock to the ISS, it'll be to the Russian segment. (marking my own words [X]) Penyulap talk

Then why mention autonomous docking?--Craigboy (talk) 13:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Is there another kind of Chinese docking :) ? Penyulap talk
Yes, see the mission plan for Shenzhou 9.--Craigboy (talk) 02:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Ah-HA, so there you are, first and foremost they do the automatic docking then when they have that worked out they run a manual docking to work out procedures and protocols and problems the crew will face. They learn their lessons well those Chinese, by watching. Having both is important for safety, practicing both is important for safety, and they do the auto dock with their Tiangong 1 first, no? I think after like 135 NASA Shuttle flights, with many to the ISS, there was a missed opportunity to develop auto docking technology, and what a shame too. But NASA boys are born and bred cowboys and love it that way, and it's more dramatic... I like their style. Actually I have a cool picture of the ISS seen through their manual dock system to compliment a Soyuz docking view as well, so we can make one of those little side-by-side pics in the article.
So the USOS is for cowboys and robotic arms, and the RS is for deep space prep with robot docking and trying to over-ride HAL 9000, before he crashes the progress into Mir. Sweet. So I still think the Chinese aren't cowboys, do autodocking, and would dock to the RS. Penyulap talk
They probably chose to do the Shenzhou 8 unmanned because they didn't want to risk a crew on their first docking, I have no clue what they plan to do nominally for future missons. The Russians were actually the first to fly the APAS-89/95 system and they did it with a crew on-board opposed to the unmanned Shenzhou 8 mission. Since NASA didn't have unmanned re-supply vehicles why would the Shuttle need to be docked automatically? What article are you talking about? "So I still think the Chinese aren't cowboys, do autodocking, and would dock to the RS." To me it doesn't make sense for them to use a heavily modified Shenzhou for a one-off ASTP type mission.--Craigboy (talk) 08:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Future missions will do as the Russians do, autodock with supervision, call that another penyulap assumption, but I won't go putting things like that in any article until someone says it somewhere of course, I don't make stuff up at all, and I keep my penyulap assumptions out of articles. I'm saying they missed the opportunity to develop the system, but of course my voice matters nothing, it's a drop in the ocean of voices that say Nasa missed this opportunity or that opportunity, and that the human race squanders all their opportunities, sigh. But now they have finished with the shuttle and have no autodock developed sort of thing, although they let the commercial people do dragons eye didn't they, so i guess they let other people take the opportunity. Haha, every Shenzhou is heavily modified, it's like no two ever look alike. lolz. Penyulap talk
After Shenzhou 9 they should all be pretty similar.Source1Source 2--Craigboy (talk) 11:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

You assuming that the APAS family is much larger than it is

APAS is the root term for the entire family of Russian docking mechs, and the american and chinese and euro mechs which are all branches from that, afaik.

No. The APAS family consists of APAS-75, 89 and 95. Although typically the term APAS is used to describe APAS-89/95 (APAS-75 is a very different, non-compatible mechanism). Americans used the APAS-95, these mechanisms were purchased from Energiya and integrated into the Shuttle's Orbital Docking System and onto the PMAs by Boeing.
The Russians use the mostly unrelated Probe and Drogue system, the Europeans use the same mechanism to dock their ATV.Craigboy (talk) 18:21, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Yep, per above. Penyulap talk

You claiming there is a usable APAS mechanism on ROS, that Shenzhou isn't capable of being docked manually and that docking mechanisms can easily be converted to other types.

And what the americans are doing on their section is irrelevant. the APAS are Russian. not american. They are all over the station not just on the USOS.Penyulap

There is one on ROS. It connects Zarya to Unity, and thus cannot be used for visting vehicles (nor has it ever). The only open APAS docking mechanisms are on PMA-2 and PMA-3, which are part of USOS.Craigboy (talk) 18:21, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
No automated docking is possible at present on the USOS, so any supposed docking to that section will require new hardware to be sent up. Which means you can just as easily send up new hardware, such as slapping a new collar on the node module,Penyulap
You cannot "slap a collar on", a docking adapter would have to be developed. This means it is not compatible with ROS. Craigboy (talk) 20:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

(ins) It can be manually docked, no problem, but I am saying that just like everyone except NASA and JAXA, the chinese use autodocking first and manual as a backup. The ROS is equipped for autodock. USOS isnt'. Penyulap talk It doesn't matter that the USOS isn't equipped to allow autonomous docking if Shenzhou can be docked manually.--Craigboy (talk) 13:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

That's not how the Chinese do things. Penyulap talk
That's not how you think they do.--Craigboy (talk) 02:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
They do things my way. I told them to. :) They go for contingency, safety. They aren't going to abandon the best ways and risk a botched docking because manual won't work and they realized they left the rendezvous in Beijing, they are going to take every precaution possible. The ESA boys are on the same page too, they came to the RS party and brought a plate with GPS, lazer, and everyone's favorite, Kurs for backup. They didn't leave anything behind thinking it'll be ok, they left nothing to chance and look at them now ! cool. that ATV kicks the ISS butt into high orbit like no other ship can do. Penyulap talk
"just like everyone except NASA and JAXA, the chinese use autodocking first and manual as a backup." Everyone else is just Russia. And I think you're right that it may just be a cultural thing.--Craigboy (talk) 08:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
CSME, ESA and RSA use autodock, JAXA and NASA don't. It's easy enough to see, that when the ATV evolves into a manned vehicle, it'll autodock as well. Penyulap talk
"autodocking first and manual as a backup" The ATV can't be controlled remotely. If the ATV gets converted into a manned vehicle I thnk there's no way of knowing how they will nominally dock a manned vehicle.--Craigboy (talk) 11:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

You assuming again that Shenzhou isn't capable of being docked manually.

OMG you're a total GENIUS, that whole "the rendezvous and docking project hardware is compatible with the International Space Station." - Jiang Guohua, a professor and chief engineer at the China Astronaut Research and Training Center in Beijing. is brilliant. Stick it in the article man ! I can't steal your thunder there, you've had that since march ? good thing you remember/mention it ! That is brilliant ! Especially since it's the first specific mention of the rendezvous system. Which suggests more than it reveals as to where the docking would occur, yes, because as far as I know, there is no (automatic) rendezvous system whatsoever on the USOS, it's strictly Russian.Penyulap 05:09, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

(ins) no I'm not, I am saying they don't fly by the seat of their pants, they take the russian "Ve have barkups fvor our barkups for our Oxillary redunentsee systems comorade" they demand high standards of safety. Penyulap talk

Manned dockings are not unsafe.--Craigboy (talk) 13:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
(You mean manual, yes?) They are not unsafe, unless the crew get sick, or the manual controls are broken, or the crew member isn't well trained, or alert, or any of a hundred other things. Extra options create safety. The Chinese see that, and go for extra options. Besides, it's an obvious technology to develop and exploit. Automated dockings are a big advantage in many situations, so why would they prefer to go manual, there is nothing to learn from it that can be applied beyond that crew-member's missions. Anyhow, I think that's interesting, maybe the different approaches to safety that the different agencies have are a reflection of culture. The Russians seem to change everything that they can think of in response to any accident, and the Chinese seem to learn by watching what others do. I still haven't popped into the ISS article how the Russians have a policy to team up every spaceflight newbie with a spaceflight veteran. It's that way for every ISS flight, but did you know about that ? I think it may be difficult for you to grasp the Chinese / Russian approaches to safety, and it is certainly a little difficult for me to grasp the American approach to safety. So it's good that together we paint the whole picture. By the way, we need to work on getting your 'clone' word in the article somewhere, not where it annoyed the other editor in the china section, but it should be written up, the different opinions, how some say China purchased it, some say they stole it. Penyulap talk
No sources said they stole it, if we mention the tech exchange sources than I believe the word clone won't infer it was stolen.--Craigboy (talk) 02:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Agreed, Craigboy 1, consensus 1. use the word clone, but only if you mention the tech exchanges. Penyulap talk
Agreed.--Craigboy (talk) 08:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Sweeet ! I'll help you sneak past the other editor that doesn't want it in the China section, we can put it into the docking section, as a better overview of the docking and berthing mech article, and/or a note in the china section. This would be cool, explaining it to everyone. Penyulap talk
Maybe we should just keep it in the Chinese Docking Mechanism article?--Craigboy (talk) 11:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

You're assuming that the Soyuz and Shenzhou are compatible.

The Chinese and Russian hardware is compatible for docking, making co-operation much easier (US hardware is not compatible, and auto-docking is unknown in US manned craft).

Penyulap (talk) 17:13, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

(ins) I think they just have to do a) the rendevouz and b) pinouts. Penyulap talk Expand on "pinouts".--Craigboy (talk) 13:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, when any two spacecraft join together they 'talk' to each other at the very least, like the main computer on the ISS wakes up the Soyuz computers now and then and asks them how are they, how do you feel, are all your systems all right ? and chit-chats about where they are at the moment (lolz, maybe that language is too approachable for you), "The DMSR in the SM periodically interrogates the computers of the docked Soyuz vehicles for system status and uploads new GNC data for use in evacuation scenarios". Anyhow, back on topic, no two craft are quite the same, so the Buran 'pinouts' would have different connections in that APAS allowing the MIR-2 DMS to talk with the Buran DMS. Maybe they are RS-232 or maybe USB ? Like that. Or, to put it another way, just as the computers on board are updated, so too the connections do, and as the missions change so do does the adapter version, for example you said they do not transfer gas/fluid, but obviously if they wanted to add that to a future mission they can use the same APAS and just add the connectors to both sides, and delete the ones that are superseded. So the pinouts and pipes and so forth will change according to the craft and mission. the Soyuz Apollo computers wouldn't have had any connections for the computers would they ? probably not. But the latest ones would. OMG, I just thought of the perfect analogue. Think domestic motor vehicle towing mechanisms. They have the same 50mm spherical steel ball, but different electrical connectors, sometimes in some countries they are flat, sometimes round, but of course, this is all not such a OMG moment if towing is not big where you live. There are countries full of cars where none have towing mechanisms I do recall. Penyulap talk
The electrical connections are all the same, there would be be no reason to have mission specific electrical connections. APAS-89/95 were only used on space stations, there would be no reason to launch a spacecraft that was no compatible with the one on orbit.--Craigboy (talk) 02:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
No way. '75 '89 and '95 will not have the same electrical connections. cn.! Penyulap talk
I was referring to APS-89/95. APAS-75 is not compatible in any way to APAS-89/95.--Craigboy (talk) 08:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Cool, that's what I'm saying as well. Penyulap talk
So you understand that there weren't mission specific electrical connections for APAS-89/95?--Craigboy (talk) 11:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I few other strange things you've done[edit]

Adding a Christmas section to the ISS page

New section "Christmas on the International Space Station"

I've created a new section for the article, that appears at Christmas when such material is notable, and not at other times of the year, when people probably won't care. The section without it's heading is at Template:Christmas on the International Space Station and please do add, edit and so forth. Ignore the warnings you will see about references, when it goes into the article they show up normally if they are done in the usual way. Anyhow, it all works although I will no doubt improve it's technical implementation, and might get help from others too. Or just go ahead and delete the lot if you feel the urge to ! whatever. Temporarily there is a way to view it on my talkpage ISS workspace, but I'll copy it out of there soon if it looks like a good idea, to aid in editing. Penyulap 07:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

woops, it's gone live sooner than I thought, thanks to technical help, and another take on which days are good, I'd better spruce it up, it was just example stuff really. Any comments on this section? Penyulap 10:56, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Yeah it's great isn't it. If you don't like it, go delete it, I won't stop you. Still, it stayed there with just one concern all Christmas, and I got assistance from other editors with it. So seriously, is it a bad idea, or just an unusual good idea ?
(added) Look at it like this, there was one valid concern, that something that is in the article should be notable all the time, rather than just at a particular period of time. True enough. But there are the exceptions in the article. For example, we don't list all of the craft that have visited the ISS in the article, we only mention them in the lead-up to their most interesting time, and then dump them fast as soon as they leave. So too with the Christmas section, it appears only in the leadup few days, and then disappears fast afterward. Penyulap talk

Going on a tangent about hats

Sorry, I apologize, I missed the word 'hard' on the first read. Didn't mean to twist your words. Anyhow, they're not hard hats that they are actually wearing in that picture. (I mean I can't get over your totally disputing the photographic evidence, I mean, this is not one of my own pictures I made, I'm not THAT good with GIMP, it's from NASA I think, just look it up) anyhow they are not hard hats, they are yellow hats. They can't have got onto the station without being 100% Mission control approved I'm sure. If I can get a ref saying they aren't hard hats, they are just yellow hats, can I have your support for the picture, and should I get a ref saying they wear hats on the ISS, you know, aside from this photo ? Also, I'm pretty darn sure the 'reason' has to be something to do with 'policy' or, to make it easy, any essay more than 3 days old will do too, probably. Wait, is it the caption ? I don't think I said anything about 'hard' hats, I do think I mentioned the commanders mustache though. How about I review the description so it doesn't mention hard in relation to hats. Penyulap 18:37, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Pen, I didn't say it was photoshopped. Re-read my original comment ("Crew members do not wear hard hats on the ISS (except for when they were posing for this picture)"). I don't know what you mean by "yellow hats" (and don't tell me they're hats that are yellow). They're clearly hard hats, and they're most likely wearing them to make it a humorous photo.Craigboy (talk) 12:53, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm looking at the article right now and I'm seeing 5 hats across 2 photos. (Because the Christmas template is showing). There are plenty more hats here and if it is included that's going to make 10 hats in the article, I'm thinking some different colors would be nice, I mean they are all red hats, with white trim and a bit of green, I'd love a picture with some yellow hats to balance the article a bit. Penyulap 12:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Pen you're hard enough to follow as it is so can you please keep the jokes to a minimum.Craigboy (talk) 12:53, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Well how about start making sense ? I mean what's "Image is inaccurate" or "Crew members do not wear hard hats on the ISS" all about ? oh come on, I am asking serious questions here, and what am I getting in return ? Penyulap 13:06, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
You're getting very obvious answers and responding with things like "It's clearly 3 times better than the replacement, as there is 3 times the work being done" and talking about the balance of different kind of hat pictures in the article.Craigboy (talk) 00:05, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

(inserted text) Ahh my hats my hats, my precious hats. I'm trying to convey the humor they have on the ISS, there is a lot of it. Russians are quite nuts for it. I mean how about this for an official government Mars500 website picture ? There is humor on all sides, but mostly on the American and Russian sides I can find it. We need more JAXA and Canadian humor ! Penyulap talk 10:36, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

"I'm trying to convey the humor they have on the ISS" - Well why didn't you say that instead of going on and on about hats?--Craigboy (talk) 13:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Omg, lol, I thought I did, per the original caption, "the crew are well prepared for all the things that fall on them in Zero gravity" hehe, I'm so sorry there, I thought that was pretty much the thing, it's like I thought for a while there why don't Americans have any humor ? but I see you do. Btw they were sent on the shuttle too. Do you think we should pop a little bit in somewhere, or do you think it's no good ? Penyulap talk

Cool stuff we have done.[edit]

I think there are some really cool things too, some things that seemed 'strange' at the time, but now are like the norm. Do you remember when people used to argue with me about the lede ? and how frustrated I got when they refused under all circumstances to discuss content, preferring to just revert everything ? Actually I think you would remember because you got hit by the shrapnel too, remember ?

From the time when I did my first edit till now, wow, what a difference we have made eh ?

Remember when people used to argue with me over how many space station projects there were ? now look at the Origins section, you can just read it. And even though I wrote it, I don't agree with Columbus being a space station, I wrote it the way I figured people would like it, whereas for the record, Columbus was nothing but an on-paper diplomatic bargaining tool, not a space station project. But it's too 'out there' to explain the difference to people, so I just keep the concepts nice and approachable. The other self criticism of that section is I haven't bothered to include Canada, but who cares ? maybe later on I'll add a good read.

The table of contents is nicer now, logical, and I love the feel of the article, more dramatic. I think we've done a fantastic job, but it's only just begun, there is so very much to do, the article is still a pile of crap. I have the special penyulap ability to just turn up the critique and see all the problems. Pick a section and I'll tell you lots and lots of things that are wrong with it. On the other hand, I can just turn it down too, and the article is lovely, or I can move across time and tell you why it will suck and where and how soon. And stability, I can pick and see where the hits will be, and why they occur, and head them off too. Omg, remember 'assembled' ? It's a dirty dirty word eh ? lolz. Penyulap talk 11:26, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

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Thanks :D[edit]

For your kindness. I'm pretty surprised to be honest. I actually saw a counselor earlier today. So thank you for your help. I was hostile at first and I apologized. I think I have a lot to offer. I know I didn't make the right decisions, but I think now I will do much better. I kinda like poetry. I'm more into full stories though :D. SKeptical of Love (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC).

You are most welcome. I see a great deal of promise in you, both in your editing and in your poetry. I can't imagine that you wouldn't be able to impress someone that you like with poetic skills like those. I couldn't find any of it on google, so I suspect that you in fact wrote it yourself, is that correct ?
I'm glad that things are working out. You can turn your 'full stories' into 'essays' here on wikipedia, they are very popular (too popular really, sometimes people try to use them instead of rules (facepalm)). Penyulap talk 06:49, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
I wrote along response at AN/I. I am taking responsibilty for all of my pasta ctions dating back to 2006. I sense you may not be entirely genuine, but your help is greatly appreciated. I see a great promise in myself for making things better. I will not ever leave Wikipedia because I love this site. I will make articles better because I want to atone for my past and make Wikipedia better. SKeptical of Love (talk) 06:58, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Well it is good to share (with those editors) the doubts those other editors have, in regards to your future, because they cannot see it clearly. Whereas to you I may express entirely less doubt, as you and I do not have near as much doubt about your own worth and value to the project, you know yourself better than other editors, and I know yourself quite well through my insight. I'm simply seeing everyone's point of view and shining the spotlight on the common ground where we can all stand together. Penyulap talk 08:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

ca:Stop Online Piracy Act[edit]

He restaurat ca:Discussió:Stop Online Piracy Act. Al ser la seva primera contribució, i només tenir enllaços externs, vaig considerar-ho spam directament.--Àlex (talk) 14:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Gràcies Àlex, entenc. Penyulap Discussió 14:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

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I mention you in passing here, do please come along and have a say. Penyulap talk 09:19, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks ! I was doing some pictures, but I'll check it out ! Penyulap talk 09:22, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Template:International Space Station structure[edit]

Almost done, its easy parts though, lol (I can't fully understand this image which is my source). That tool which I previously told you is a bit buggy so I'm using this one. Also ROS is in a good shape now (sample). Don't worry if you don't like it's design, that's easy to change (I've created some here). --Z 17:06, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh and about User talk:Penyulap/Fleet workspace, that's not possible and also using bot is not a good way for several reasons (many wikis even don't have interwiki bots. Mainly because BRFA process can be a headache) so I think the best way is doing it manually (you can put that table in a template so it would be easier to maintain and update across different wikis). --Z 17:40, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

It's brilliant, I wasn't aware you could add buttons like that, it's an eye-opener. I had previously been thinking of putting each image on a page with a longer description for some items, and navigation textual help, now there is a great deal more real estate to work with, more choices to be made. The largest image, I think we will probably settle on a version of it that when zoomed, comes in close to the station with little blackspace to look through. If it is cropped square, it should probably cut off some of the stations solar panels, they'd run off the end of the picture out of view, as they aren't important. I'd figure the landing from clicking on the zoom tool should be reasonably close to something that can be viewed, maybe even messing up the blackspace with an infobox that goes in that corner, but that's all to worry about later I think.
What I need to do now is find a lot of pictures so we can label. There is a pic of the Soyuz here and I need more pics of everything, similar to that, to find them and list them, so you and everyone else have the resources we will need, even I don't have them just yet.
How do I use a template that contains a table across wikis? which server would it go on, as I think I tried and couldn't work it out, they just go red. Penyulap talk 23:47, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Can you please join #wikipedia[3] (or wherever you want) IRC channel? --Z 14:37, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Occupy Wall Street [edit]

Information.svg An article that you have been involved in editing, Occupy Wall Street , has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Amadscientist (talk) 03:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Template:Infobox chinese space station[edit]

A tag has been placed on Template:Infobox chinese space station requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

If the template is intended to be substituted, please feel free to remove the speedy deletion tag and please consider putting a note on the template's page indicating that it must be substituted so as to avoid any future mistakes (<noinclude>{{substituted}}</noinclude>).

If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by visiting the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. W. D. Graham 22:27, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

wp:dttr ? Penyulap talk 22:50, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
For the time being, if I was to go with the other one, do you know how to redirect the image as I have modified the template to do ? would that cause any trouble for the other stations do you think ? Also, I'm going to need to make other changes to the original, to better suit PALZ9000's abilities. There is a lot more functionality to be included. Whichever. Penyulap talk 22:54, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

CSS Pics[edit]

The Chinese may intend to have an airlock in the Core Module or on one of the Laboratory modules. In regards to the accuracy of the image hosted on their English page, the Shenzhou spacecraft aren't shown with solar panels, the Luch-like antenna is shown being used as a RMS and the station looks nothing like any of the descriptions or images released these passed few years. Not sure if this was ever even a design because it looks like something a graphical artist tossed together.

What program are you using to to make the image? I recommend using these images as reference. Image 1 Image 2 Image 3 Image 4. Although for some reason in those images no docking mechanisms are depicted, so I recommend using this image as a reference for the docking mechs.--Craigboy (talk) 08:10, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

"The Chinese may intend to have an airlock in the Core Module or on one of the Laboratory modules." C
Yep, that follows Russian design methods too, "Ve make everything an airlock." P
Actually I just found an image that seems to infer that the airlock is in Laboratory Module I (may not be the official name). C
What's that ? P
Robotic Manipulator System C
"In regards to the accuracy of the image hosted on their English page" C
We can say that about any image they post, give me an image and I'll critique it for you, where will that get us, we aren't here on wikipedia to decide what is true or not, we're supposed to document and reference everything (but between you and I, I also prefer accuracy above all else). P
"looks nothing like any of the descriptions or images released these past few years" C
except for the little point that it IS one of the images released these past few years (doh!). Look, it's not there best one I'll give you that much, and you'll have to admit it was a no-brainer place for me to start improving images, I mean how could I fail with all those faults. By the way, do you think I did ok with it, compared to the original ? Oh, what year did the original I used come out ? we should add that to the article. P
It looks like a very old image which would mean it wasn't released within "these past few years". The original seems pretty worthless, this is the only image where I've seen that configuration and it really looks like someone just took a per-existing picture of the ROS and edited (even the perspective looks kind of off). C
Well it's the only one that we have that is remotely photographickey looking, like with other projects, there are lots, so I guess this will be the oldest one that we have to work with. Not that I'm going to say it's the first CSS concept, we can't label it that way, how can we label it ? we can at least say it's an 'early' concept do you think ? or at least this artist thinks so :) I'll make some more to help illustrate the different concepts but I can't be bothered if people are going to cut them out for pedantic reasons. I always have too much work to do as it is. But I do want to illustrate this article, and more. Thing is, where do we get images ? has anyone asked for release onto a free license ? and would we get it ? we've been waiting forever for Russian images. I can't see the Chinese being much different, even ESA and JAXA are a bit sparse on the PD images. No, I'd say if we are going to illustrate the changing designs we will have to do it ourselves. P
Its probably best just to toss it aside because we don't know the origin of the picture but I do know its at least six years old. I've yet to see the design change. C
Well I'll be happy for us to label it as a 2005 artists impression, hows that ? What do you mean you've yet to see the design change ? huh ? P
We don't know if it was created in 2005 and we don't know if this was ever a considered design.--Craigboy (talk) 12:30, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
What are you talking about ? it's on their #$%@ website !!! I'm supporting you chopping out any caption that calls it a design until the end of time, but an illustration it is. It's on their site, to illustrate the CSS. That's where it is, that's what they are using, now, today. *sigh* Call it mid 2000's ? early illustration ? Don't call it a design. agreed. P

I'm using a variety of art software, did you have some data files that may help ? The image I want to make next for the CSS is going to show the modules, and I guess that has the added advantage of having component images for the mod articles themselves. Although the twin science ROS mods have me itching to make an anim of them dumping the last stage of the proton and unfolding their panels, I think that'd be so cool, and a fast explanation to do as an image rather than text. P

That first image you link to is brilliant, I hadn't come across that one, I like it as it is on their site. I don't like the ray tracing stuff, I prefer real textures from real images though, which is what I'll do. Also I might add some nondescript minor furniture, which is always the difference between raytracing and final photos of the real thing. The CCM looks like it has two parts, like a NM is separate from it. P

The image is misleading, the Core Module and it's node are one piece. C
I know, but it just looks that way, which is cool, as it's easy to clone other nodes for the images. P
There are no other nodes.--Craigboy (talk) 11:52, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
There are once I chop them off Zvezda :) let hope the crew have their spacesuits handy :) (come to think of it, PALZ9000 should do the honors) P
Not sure if this was ever even a design because it looks like something a graphical artist tossed together. C
All the images you've shown me qualify that way, although they are better quality and a more defined design. It's like the freedom images, they start off with ideas, which change A LOT before launch. Mark my words, they'll change the design A LOT from those pics that you show me. I'll use them if I make another image, that's for sure, and it'll be on the long list of design proposals that changed before launch. same as every other station. P
I should clarify that I think it looks like a graphic artist created it with little input on the actual design because just look at it, some things just don't make sense about the image (like how an antenna is a grabbing a Shenzhou). C
Well not in my image there isn't. I can't actually see what you mean for the original, but I'll take your word for it, I'm not sure where you mean, do you mean Zvezda aft ? P
The antenna on Zvezda aft. C
(for other readers, it's answered in the next part)
Do you have any photographic images of their orbital hardware you can recommend for me to study ? I want to imitate the textures properly, even though I'll be using brushes from other stations, where it's PD. P
I wouldn't spend too much time on the textures of the modules because the exterior of the flight hardware will most likely look a lot different than the renderings. I don't have any flight hardware images besides that of Tiangong 1 and Shenzhou. C
Actually, with the pics you point to, there are so many vast changes they are discussing, that I could reasonably install a space elevator into one of the modules, everyone would yell HA! and point, then 5 mins later CSME would post another pic showing two space elevators. :) It changes that much and that fast. P
All those images are basically the same. Your original image doesn't look like it was ever a design. C
Other people could call that you OR over the current state of the chinese government website, which displays the picture as we speak. Other people could say that, but I won't :) P What I'll ask is two questions, 1) does it look like the picture on the website, except for docked craft, and 2) doesn't that argument apply to the chinese gov website equally as well ? Does it look like the CMSE image was ever a design ? P
To me because the image only seems to be on the English version of their website (where mistakes would be more easily made) it doesn't hold a lot of weight. To me it doesn't look like a design, but if we ever find a document describing what those modules are and why something that looks like an antenna is holding Shenzhou (and with no where to put it) then I think we an call it otherwise.--Craigboy (talk) 12:42, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Omg I see what you are talking about now, that is hilarious too. it does look like a shenzhou is docked into the antenna, that's even better than the shadows from the USOS solar array. LOL. I had thought they had docked it into the side of a converted robot, you know, going the ATV route where old robots are used to build the station up. That is hilarious I must admit. They don't think much of their English version website eh ? It's the same with the Russian website too, you can't work out anything unless you use the native language versions. Penyulap talk 12:56, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

re the dm, I don't think I'll get into that much detail, it's just an impression, I don't think anyone will use wikipedia pics to build their own space station :) I was going to pretty much copyclone the Zvezda pics for the NM end of the mod, and the NM article too. I was wanting to ask you first about the NM as I want to get the mechs right, and I figure you can point me to some pics of the mechs they will use on the NM, or just to match them up by telling me which places on which mods have the same ones. It'd help that little extra with the accuracy. I think you're the undisputed (well, sometimes disputed :) sorry) expert on docking mechs. P

Most of them should look almost exactly like this. C
Sweet ! that one is set up for manual docking, do you have some without the target in the middle ? is it the same kind that is on Zarya ? are there pics of that one ? Penyulap talk 11:13, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Sadly I do not. If you ever manage to get a hold of an image of the in orbit mechanism on Tiangong-1 then that should be what you're looking for (so far I've only seen footage of the Shenzhou 8 mechanism). I'm not sure of what kind of APAS-95 variation that Zarya uses so I can't say.--Craigboy (talk) 11:27, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
That's ok, I mean pics of the NM dm's, or rather, the same variants that will be used, they don't need to be orbital for me to use, as I often have to redraw from PD textures just the same. Penyulap talk 11:38, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Most of them if not all will be the same as picture linked above but the docking target may be different (which isn't part of the docking mechanism).--Craigboy (talk) 11:45, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Actually having a closer look at that one, they won't look much like it at all, are there any connections at all between the shuttle and the station through that thing ? what are the black circles, are they push-apart arms ? The NM is going to have a lot more in the way of connections going on that is for sure, but that picture will do for sure just the same. Penyulap talk 14:34, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Spaceflight[edit]

Thanks for the kind words! However, space science is not really my knowledge area so I think I can contribute more effectively to Wikipedia in other areas. Acadēmica Orientālis (talk) 08:57, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Well thank you for considering, although there are many aspects that have nothing to do with spaceflight, except that they are to do with spaceflight :) like the 'propaganda' angle as they call it in the west, or patriotism as it's described domestically. It has little to do with technical aspects, it's more politics, and there is the art and media coverage and so on. Anyhow, I do look forward to crossing paths with you again. Penyulap talk 09:20, 11 March 2012 (UTC)


Hey Penyulap, when proposing a merger you should follow this guideline. It tells you all the steps for proposing a merger and making sure it gets listed. I know it can be complicated to propose one of these (I have done a few myself), but it is the best way to do it.--NavyBlue84 12:46, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't at that stage as yet, more enquiring about the subject really, if they are the same thing or not. No point proposing a merger when I'm not certain, that's what I figure, so I thought to ask first off, I figure you or Craigboy would have a second and third opinion (I can get intelligent disagreement out of both of you without it being a heated debate) :) Penyulap talk 13:03, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Understandable, but opening a merger could bring in lots of people with an opinion on the subject, and not just the regular Spaceflight project folks. It never hurts to open something like that, esp. when looking for comments and opinions.--NavyBlue84 21:05, 13 March 2012 (UTC)


Yep, that was a mistake and that's why I've often said I'm not much of an article writer as I make too many silly mistakes like that. To have a reasonable chance of not making mistakes like that I'd probably have to read over something at least a couple of times several hours apart and wikipedia, by it's nature, makes that difficult. Dpmuk (talk) 05:18, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Never let bad grammar and spelling stop you writing an article ! The copyeditors guild loves to fix things. I think they have a portrait of me up on their wall with the caption "Our reason for existence" :) Penyulap talk 05:21, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Well I am starting to write a few more things now so maybe I'll join you on that wall. They're normally short stubs so as avoid copyvio deletions but still it's a start. Dpmuk (talk) 05:23, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Yep, the docs for that suck. to avoid copyvio, just read the webpage, and then goto the edit window and write a book report in your own words, without looking at the webpage. Then add the reference for it. Penyulap talk 05:28, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Think you got the wrong end of the stick - I regularly work at WP:CP and so reasonably often rewrite articles to avoid copyvios introduced by someone else rather than pressing the delete button. Dpmuk (talk) 05:32, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. You shorten articles into stubs to reduce the copyright violation ? Penyulap talk 05:40, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Pretty much. When an article has been created that is pretty much all copyvio it's listed it WP:CP and the subject seems notable we'll often rewrite as a stub rather then delete the article. The important bit there is "rewrite" rather than shorten. Just shorting would still leave a copyvio! Given the constant backlog at WP:CP I rarely have time to write a whole new article but feel it's worthwhile to write enough of a stub from the copyvio version to hopefully give someone else a starting point. Dpmuk (talk) 05:46, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
That sounds like pretty useful and probably thankless work. It would make things a bit easier when there is the links all there, but if it was not a subject of interest, then it would be hard I would think. At least for me. Penyulap talk 05:54, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I will happily admit I don't enjoy that bit much. The bit I do find rewarding and sometimes enjoyable is investigating a complex case only to find we don't have a problem, for example when they copied from us. I enjoy the challenge of proving this and it's also nice to have worked out that we can keep an article. Unfortunately taking the rough with the smooth comes with the "job". Dpmuk (talk) 06:01, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Ha! How about when they learn from us ? I have terrible grammar and punctuation, and so it disturbs me a bit when schools use my text to teach English !! I saw the text I wrote for the first part of Chinese space station used to teach Japanese students English. That was like wow, but also, omg I better go check the article, or someone should, and not me. It was here, but now it's gone, and not in the internet archive of it either. Penyulap talk 06:27, 16 March 2012 (UTC)


Hi. I'm not sure what this edit summary meant. Your "bot" created a new template and said it was "updating" something. Also, did you pass it through the bot approval group? Killiondude (talk) 08:16, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

We(myself and the primary programmer Z) were doing a bit of a test run and are just at the stage today to do a BRFA. I was fixing up the shutoff buttons on a few servers for it, and putting up his Userpages and redirects for his talkpages first off, then Z will help out filling in the RFBA. Yes, he should label that a lot better, but I think it only needs one per server done once, and then updated every other time, so do you figure it's worth it, or if you prefer I can manually do it myself in his account if it's an issue ? Penyulap talk 08:31, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
BRFA's have now been made on servers for the first 3 languages. Penyulap talk 04:09, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

I noticed something[edit]

and I'm sure that you meant well in this edit, but unless you had this particular editor's permission, there was no need to correct their spelling in a talkpage post. If you did have permission, then that's all cool. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 13:46, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Shearonink for the query. I too dislike people changing my work, although I do appreciate copyediting in good faith. Actually I don't just appreciate copyediting of my text, I also have a friend who copyedits my code without asking and I think that is brilliant !!! I mean wow !! who gets that sort of help on wiki ? The above edit you refer to looks like a worry because I slipped the cursor over two words rather than just the one which needed it. I'm not sure what was going on with the second word, but luckily it wasn't the first time I did it, the first time I did it changed the meaning of the text substantially and so I told the author at the same time I did it on his talkpage here. He responded on my talkpage in a section above this one, so all is well. Thank you for checking, I wish I had a stalker who watched the naughty people who outright delete my words, I don't know how many times I have had to warn them about that sort of thing. There is a spot in this discussion (look for my 3rd signature) where I go and alter someones userpage. They were accused of poetry at ANI. So I changed it so people could see what it was. I must admit I do make some big changes without permission, but so far the recipients have been cool with it, and it's fun too! Penyulap talk 20:54, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

ISS data bot[edit]

I just wanted to tell you about the fact that there is a project under way to build a sort of Commons but instead of pictures it would be for data which could be used in a similar way that pictures are now. From what I understand tables will be one of the first things that can be uploaded. link:). Thanks for the note BTW --U5K0'sTalkMake WikiLove not WikiWar 10:04, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

He won't be happy if he finds us talking about this, people trying to unplug him already (I don't think he can lipread). Don't tell him I think that it's an awesome project and is set to (hopefully) carry out some of his tasks. Though, he will still have a good deal of use, things that can't be handled any other way, and hopefully not vandalism patrol (maybe, but VP is a bore!). I think though, I have to work with the resources available, that and time-frames may mean it's faster to simply D.I.Y. (D.I.O.).
WD is a good idea, and I'll do what I can, if I can, to assist. Penyulap 13:31, 21 March 2012 (UTC)


It seems the category does exist. I don't spend much time on my user page. I would rather invest it in other areas of WP, but others can see that I am a tradesman now.--Canoe1967 (talk) 05:09, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

cool ! Penyulap 05:10, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Your objections in the RFC Mohamed[edit]

your objections in the Rfc on Mohamed Images is not valid... you keep asking for clarification between calligraphy and figurative images---figurative images is used in the RfC to describe images of a person depicting Mohamed. So you are asking for what is already there.---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 20:05, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

My objection is the difference is not sufficiently clear for many of the editors. It needs more approachable language. 'Figurative' is an ambiguous term for too many people and needs to be substituted. Using phases such as 'images of Mohamed, rather than images of his name' or 'images of people rather than images of text' would help the situation. Penyulap 02:08, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Crystal Clear app gimp.png
Hello, Penyulap/Museum of Yap and Waffle. A reply to your request at the Illustration workshop has been made.
If you are satisfied, please copy/paste the following code and add it to your request: {{resolved|1=~~~~}}
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{GL Illustration reply}} template.


Hello. Your signature in the Russian WP contains interwiki. Put a colon before the language code (1).

Make do so in all language sections, where you have a so signature. Thank you. Sorry for my english.-- (talk) 00:10, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

ISS module infobox[edit]

Ok Penyulap, thanks for the reply. Well I tried to design the Infobox on the Talk page of Wikiproject Space flight but it does'nt appear. A set of things that I suggest are already as a table in Article:Poisk(ISS Module). But I found that there are Infoboxes for a few Mir Modules like Kvant-1,etc. But these infoboxes are not there for Kvant-2. Zvedza ISS Module has an Infobox for a space station.

Orbital tug means not only the name. It means size, weight, Deorbit Date and other things. So with a module which has a Orbital tug it should be like this(eg : Poisk) Orbital tug= Progress M-MIM2(Progress M-SO2 Orbital tug weight=7,102 kg(I don't know if it is Orbital tug+Poisk) Orbital tug type=Progress M modified Orbital tug decay date= 8 dec 2009

I just got angry after no reply for three days so that is why I just Blurted out the situation .But again thanks for the reply. --Monareal (talk) 10:19, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh that is no problem at all. Lately I talk to myself even on pages that sort of should be busy, like the ISS talkpage, but then when other editors have time they will have a comment here and there. It's all good.
Orbital tug is a very good essential idea that we need. Each of the Chinese and Russian modules falls into one of two main classes, but I think readers don't grasp it from the way the pages are written. It needs improvement !
In regards to the downlink, I know nothing at all about it, I think it's some kind of newsletter, I have never had a copy, or wanted one. You'll need to ask someone else. Penyulap 10:30, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I stopped that downlink Succsessor. Ok But mir modules?They are in a mess.I left a Question about it on a thing called Teahouse in Wikipedia.This teahouse is for asking questions about Wikipedia. Here is the answer I got: I think the simple answer to your question is there are different ways of presenting the same information and the various editors who have compiled these articles about Mir and its modules have gone about it in different ways. One of the ones without an infobox, for example Kvant-2, may look better with an infobox or it may not. The only way to find out is to try, if you don't like the result you can undo your edit. If you like the result leave it, the worst that can happen is that somebody else doesn't like it and undoes what you did. If that happens, don't get upset or angry but ask them why they think the other way is better and see if you can find common ground between you.NtheP (talk) 07:59, 30 March 2012 (UTC)You see Kelphin and I never thought that!

Ok, another user left a comment saying there was a infobox for it in wikiproject spaceflight under the section . But I did'nt like it . Moreover , It is not used for ISS modules. I gave him a message. I think WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT MIR MODULES FIRST. You too can be a guest at teahouse. Mir modules should be also thought about. Making infoboxes in the belief that the mir module infoboxes are to be ignored is not a good idea. Somebody may delete our infoboxes telling the Mir module infoboxes are there. Thinking about the other space module infobox is also another Compolsory thing. I will give you the comment he made there: There's one already: Template:Space station module.User: SalopianJames 20:35, 29 March 2012 (UTC) Sent the reply to my talk page--Monareal (talk) 11:16, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

--Monareal (talk) 11:26, 30 March 2012 (UTC) Reply to me before 13:09 UTC--Monareal (talk) 11:45, 30 March 2012 (UTC) Ok then 23:59 UTC is enough.Now here the time is 18:08 --Monareal (talk) 12:38, 30 March 2012 (UTC)Indian Standard Time you know running 05:30 hours more than GMT.--Monareal (talk) 12:44, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok then, Good Night for you!--Monareal (talk) 12:46, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Penyulap It is a disaster!--Monareal (talk) 13:10, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Penyulap look at this my conversation between SapianJames and me: '''''''I like a new one. Morover it is not Used in ISS Modules.--Monareal (talk) 05:23, 30 March 2012 (UTC) Don't make a new one, improve the current one! If it's not used where it should be, insert it! There's no need for pointless duplication... SalopianJames (talk) 07:37, 30 March 2012 (UTC)''' !--Monareal (talk) 13:59, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Saturday 30 March(MNB): It has been Double Chaos for User:Monareal as his attempt to secure a Infobox for ISS Modules is at a dead move. He was given a reply by an user(User:SalopianJames) that there was an infobox and instead of making duplicacates , modifi=y the existing. All his plans are foiled. Monareal News Board News--Monareal (talk) 15:54, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Downlink issueNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![edit]



Happy smiley face.png Penyulap 10:55, 30 March 2012 (UTC)


Seri,Eni Mir Osman Ali Khanugute Chaganam.Ayyo Parayan maranopoyi! Etum MANGLISHA!O seri! Se! Chatta Pattikal Kollan ene varomo --Monareal (talk) 11:28, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

You'll need to use English, I don't have enough Indian friends, so I haven't learnt Malayalam yet. Penyulap 11:33, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

You Know what is malayalam?--Monareal (talk) 11:41, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Excuse Me,I know you are a Wikidragon but are you a Human?--Monareal (talk) 11:43, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I am human, I don't know many India-area languages, I'm not too familiar with Malayalam. Penyulap 11:46, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Penyulap Emergency messages are under ISS Modules Infobox!--Monareal (talk) 14:09, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Penyulap send your messages to one page. I can't search Each and every page for your messages.--Monareal (talk) 03:47, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

yes ok Penyulap 03:55, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Also, read this. Help:Watching pages Penyulap 03:57, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I know about watchlists. I use them too.--Monareal (talk) 09:34, 31 March 2012 (UTC)


Space Station Module[edit]

I did not understand.--Monareal (talk) 10:49, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I want to get James on board, he is a good editor, I want to ask for his assistance. Penyulap 10:56, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Stop before calling James,see what is up.--Monareal (talk) 11:18, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I... tried[edit]

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Hello, Penyulap. Your question has been answered at the Teahouse Q&A board. Feel free to reply there!
Please note that all old questions are archived. Message added by WormTT · (talk) 12:59, 30 March 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{teahouse talkback}} template.


A Barnstar!
A smile for you

You’ve just received a random act of kindness! (talk) 22:35, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Thank you.! Penyulap 23:21, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Information from monareal[edit]

just copy the old template to this page and make all the changes you like, and then in the next day or two I'll also have a look, add some things, and we can put it in, ok ? This will keep everyone happy and get the template fixed up too. Penyulap 04:25, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok dr Penyulap here is it

--Monareal (talk) 07:41, 31 March 2012 (UTC) Old one

| module                 = Example Station
| module_image           = Example.png
| module_image_size      = 
| module_image_caption   = This is the first example caption.
| NSSDC_ID               = 2000-000A
| station                = EXPL-01
| launch                 = January 1, 2000
| launch_vehicle         = Proton rocket
| docked                 = January 10, 2000
| undocked               = December 1, 2010
| reentry                = December 31, 2010
| mass                   = 200,000.0 kg 
(440,924.5 lb) | length = 70 m
(229.7 ft) | width = 60 m
(196.9 ft) | height = 50 m
(164.0 ft) | diameter = 55 m
(180.4 ft) | volume = 600 m³
(21,188.8 ft³) | stats_ref = [1] | configuration_image = Example.png | configuration_size = 175px | configuration_caption = This is the second example caption.

New one

| Name                   = Example Station

| Image =

Example caption
| Mission                =  Example 1 space station
| Nation                 =  Example Nation(eg:Uzbekisthan)
| Organization           =  Example Organisation
| Contrator              =  Example Contractor(eg:RKK Energia) 
| header                 =  launch
| launch date            =  DD/MM/YYYY HH/MM:UTC
| Carrier rocket         = Example rocket
| launch site            = Launch Pad 1, Example site, Example country
| header                 = Pre-Docking period
| free flight period     = 11 days
| free flight altittude  = 1391 km
| Pre-Docking operations = Example operation,sample operation
| cargo carried          = 1001 kg(1.001tons)
| Regime                 = LEO
| Inclination            = 51.7°
| header                 = Docking
| Docking port           = Example Zenith
| Docking time           = DD/MM/YYYY HH/MM:UTC
| header                 = Specifications
| Designation            = EZ155JK
| Launch mass            = 1200 kg(module),2811 kg(cargo)Total=4011 kg
| Maximum hull diameter  = 1.91m
| Hull length between docking assembly planes = 3.00125m
| Pressurized volume     = 4.7009cu m
| habitatable volume     = 3.99099 cu m
| Number of egress hatches (open inward) = 1
| Egress hatch diameter  = 1.2m
| Mass of delivered cargoes = up to 1296 kg
| Depressurization alarms = 0
| False deprussurization alarms = 0
| Accidents              = 0
| header                 = Orbital tug
| name                   = example name
| manufaterer            = Example manufaterer
| nation                 = Example nation
| organization           = example organization
| Undocking date         = DD/MM/YYYY HH/MM
| Decay date             = DD/MM/YYYY HH/MM
| header                 = undocking and reentry
| undocking date         = DD/MM/YY HH/MM
| reentry tug            = example tug
| post-docking free flight = 2 days
| decay date             = DD/MM/YY HH/MM
| fragments' landing site = example region, ocean, country, plateau ,desert ,etc

How is that?--Monareal (talk) 07:41, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Penyulap I did not understand what you did to theSpacestation Workspace--Monareal (talk) 08:52, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Special Barnstar Hires.png The Special Barnstar
Thanks for helping me with the infoboxes. But I did not understand what you did in the workspace where I put my idea.It looks confusing. Monareal (talk) 09:39, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I am working on a new picture, I did some of the work needed, there is a list of new things on the template, the list of suggestions you made for new things, I have formatted the first few things of that list into the template language, if you have time, you can format the rest of the list, just follow what I did in my last edit to the page, repeat the same as my last edit where i converted two items, changing two into template text, removing them from the list of your 'homework' and adding them to the completed list. Penyulap 10:01, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Where have you formatted it into template language?--Monareal (talk) 10:26, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I've invited James to see it. I may be a bit inactive after 11'O' Clock utc as one of my relaitives is coming from hyderabad.--Monareal (talk) 10:26, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
I think the workspace talkpage is a good place to communicate other than our talk pages. We can talk there.I think we may finish our work by day after tommorow. And we can show it to wikiproject spaceflight on 3rd April.Phew! I feel tired by sitting for 5 hours in front of wikipedia.--Monareal (talk) 10:32, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Awesome. It's important to take a rest, and no problem, as we all have things to do in real life as well. I look forward to doing more work with you. Penyulap 10:35, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Tommorow I'd be spending the entire evening with the relative who will come from Hyderabad.I won't be active during te morning. By the way, if you have free time, can you do the remaining work? I'd sometimes only be active at night.If you finish the work tommorow,send a message to me saying it is done. Then I could know it is done. If it is incomplete,send a message to me saying it is not complete.If it is completed by tommorow,we can show it to Wikiproject Spaceflight on the 2nd of April--Monareal (talk) 11:52, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

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Hi! Penyulap, thanks for visiting the Teahouse! As an experienced editor, your knowledge is very valuable to new editors. Teahouse Hosts help new editors at the Teahouse and beyond. If you'd like to get involved in assisting new editors at the Teahouse, please learn more here Sarah (talk) 17:36, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Sarah, I have had a look, and like it, but the time resources outlined are quite steep for me. Penyulap 00:04, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Space Station Module[edit]

Penyulap did you forget about the template?I too say time is running out. The last date is 6 April(I made it the last date.)--Monareal (talk) 04:08, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

no, no, I didn't forget, I abandoned the project in favor of writing them manually, as in, no template. It's a great deal better. At the moment I had been researching collapse boxes. You can continue with the template modification idea, but I think it's easier to write it anew, but without the template. Penyulap 04:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Huh?Writing manually? No templates?Did not understand what ya said.Were you writing automatically?Plan:Do the stuff and show it to me by tommorow?--Monareal (talk) 04:55, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm the teacher, you're the student, I'm not the one who does the homework, stop confusing me. Penyulap 08:40, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Chinese People Republic Question[edit]

You're chinese?--Monareal (talk) 05:10, 2 April 2012 (UTC) Penyulap, I think you know this. How to create User Suppages.--Monareal (talk) 05:11, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

To make a subpage search for User:Monareal/name of the new subpage and then follow the instructions. All this talk about my Chinese has made me hungry. Penyulap 06:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Dr Chinise Food, I ask your nationality.--Monareal (talk) 06:36, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

and you're welcome to ask again in July when I get back from my pataphysical gastronomical safari. Penyulap 07:55, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Then you are... going to abandon the infobox?Then it will be..............

HAPPY DEATH ANIVERSERY!NYAN CHATTU!--Monareal (talk) 08:41, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

A1(M) changes[edit]

Hi Penyulap,

I have sent you a personal e-mail expalining why I revoked your changes - the e-mail contains information that I would prefer not to make public. Martinvl (talk) 07:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know, I don't check my email often enough. I have checked and understand your message, and will do as you request and not make it public.
On a completely different topic, I have reverted your revert, supporting the IP editor, I see nothing on the article talkpage or edit summary which convinces me the IP editor is incorrect. Please be so kind as to explain on the article talkpage why you consider the IP edits to be harmful to the article. Penyulap 08:07, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Hi Penyulap,
Thank you for your response. I have now given the reason for my reversion which I trust you will find acceptable. BTW, this IP editor concerned had been changing junction numbers on a number of similar articles and I was going from article to article just tidying up the mess that he had left, hence my lack of Talk pages. Martinvl (talk) 08:22, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
You'd best be certain that you are leaving a proper explanation for your edits on those other articles as well. Penyulap 08:29, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
As a footnote, the article would be much improved with an explanation of the numbering system, in regards to the gaps for example. You'll find the article resists unhelpful improvement that way, because it explains the topic better. Penyulap 09:28, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
The article in question was the result of a clumsy splitting of the original A1 article. I have now added an overview section which puts the numbering into context. Martinvl (talk) 09:51, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Cool, I also see you expanded on your talkpage comment to the IP editor, that is excellent. Editors need to know what it is you are doing, especially when you're reverting or changing their work. Explaining to me, or ANI is nowhere near as good as writing it on the article talkpage and the editors talkpage, I know it seems strange because I am saying something so obvious, but seriously it is THE thing that should be done. It saves ten times as much hassle later down the line. Also, looking for reasons as to why editors make specific edits is really cool, because they will help you to improve the article, like in explaining the numbering. Just asking them why, fishing I guess, as not everyone answers, would also be the really fast-track way to a better article. Penyulap 10:00, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

A gusionmanatere[edit]

Can I tell you one thing?I just don't know what the hell have you done in the workspace. It looks mad. Reply on my talk page.--Monareal (talk) 08:43, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict times 2)

It';s easy to keep track here, if that is ok. There is the list of things you wanted to add, and to change it into template language it needs some things changed, little marks added to each one. So I had started off doing that with the list, and then the last edit or so shows just what I was doing to each item on the list. So you do the same thing to each item on the list, until the end of the list, ok ? Penyulap 09:01, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I am in a ditch. Well, Barbosa ate the Barbarians who were about 1209 tons.1209 of them. These were on the menu

Canpagne Breada
Steake Mossou
Steak Au Poivre
La Eteat gras en cocotte le duck de jus

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Monareal (talkcontribs) 08:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Never eat es cago!Never!Why?I recieved a warning with a picture let me see the picture. Oh my god!Is'nt that made of snails!Monareal Cartoon Dhamaka!--Monareal (talk) 09:08, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what the hell is this template language. Think I need Help from WD Graham. He's much experienced wikipedian. He has been on wikipedia for seven years.--Monareal (talk) 09:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, he may be able to help you there. It stands to reason. Penyulap 09:29, 2 April 2012 (UTC)


D'aww. Ten Pound Hammer(What did I screw up now?) 05:31, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Penyulap ,send me a manual what to do with the thing you wrote in that workspace to my talkpage. Kill it?Eat it? Delete it? Show it to someone?[edit]

Answer the title--Monareal (talk) 06:07, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Chew on this a while first ok ? see how you go. Penyulap

Did'nt Understand the thing but made a plan:You format it into template language. I'll make an microsoft Excel file which'll contain info about the modules. If you finish it tell a message.I'll send a message when I finsh my work. If you want, call other Wikiproject Spaceflight members to cooperate. Hurry, the last date is 6th April--Monareal (talk) 07:41, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

here is an idea, just write the article in this space, delete whatever is there and I'll help format things as it goes along, cool ? also you won't need any templates for that kind of an article, I'll explain by showing you as it goes along, cool ? Penyulap 07:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

You just do what I say.Which article are you talking about?--Monareal (talk) 07:55, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Don't make teacher spank you. I'm old and have a creaky back. Now have another look, and see I wrote a half-article there. Does it look interesting to you ? Penyulap

I want to know which article.--Monareal (talk) 09:18, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

this article, but what was the name of it that you wanted it to be when you asked in where was it village pump ? Penyulap

I did half of that. The rest I'll do it later. Anyway ,do this for the Space Station Module Infobox:You format it into template language. I'll make an microsoft Excel file which'll contain info about the modules. If you finish it tell a message.I'll send a message when I finsh my work. If you want, call other Wikiproject Spaceflight members to cooperate. Hurry, the last date is 6th April--Monareal (talk) 10:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Penyulap/M3 Project workspace[edit]

I've reverted a couple of edits to User talk:Penyulap/M3 Project workspace because they broke the ISS talk page. I would recommend that you create a new workspace, as that page is transcluded into a couple of old discussions, and re-purposing it will cause problems there. --W. D. Graham 11:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh thanks WD, I forgot all about that robot demo. I'll fix it quick smart. I wonder where else the mess is. Penyulap

You destroyed it?--Monareal (talk) 05:26, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

It was a massacre. The new article for the india launchers replaced data which was held in the same place for PALZ9000 demonstration. Palz was approved as a robot, but I forgot to disconnect a small part of one of the examples on one of the talkpages, so it was causing problems, but I don't know what they looked like, I didn't see. I expect a few lines of red text with an error message. You can revert the India launchers draft article if you like now it's all fixed. Penyulap

What are you saying?And what happened to the M3 Project Workspace? Show me the page where you found the error message and everything else. What a terrible bloodbath!--Monareal (talk) 06:18, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

It's will take me 5 minutes to show you, it's not important, nothing to see here move along. I just fixed the M3 Project workspace for you. Nothing to see move along please. Penyulap

RE: Hi Clegs[edit]

Hey, thanks for your message. What I was referencing (with canvassing) was a practice that happens on Featured Picture Candidates (FPC) from time to time, where someone will nominate an image and then post somewhere else for all their friends to go support it. What this results in is a whole bunch of people supporting the picture, not because they reviewed it and found it to meet all the criteria, but because they have a vested non-neutral interest in promoting it. It's kind of like if you were electing a town mayor, and the next town over decided to all come vote for the guy nobody in your town liked, but because there were more people in the next town, they railroaded him on you anyways. For some reason, canvassing seems to be more common for picture candidates from certain geographical areas, the Middle East being one of those. So any time we see a whole bunch of new voters coming in to vote on only one image (one that usually does not meet all the criteria), it raises red flags. The reason for my comment about canvassing was that we had an influx of new voters on this picture. New voters aren't bad (I was a new voter once, too), but when they come, vote to promote one picture, and then leave, they're not being helpful.

On another note, I'd encourage you to stick around FPC. You bring a slightly different perspective, and once you brush up on the criteria and get an idea of what the quality level we're looking for is, I think you could make some valuable contributions. We haven't had any new regular voters in a while.

Clegs (talk) 08:48, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I'll give it some thought. I actually mentioned the FPC on the relevant talkpages of the articles, plus the wikiprojects responsible for them, in response to one editor asking repeatedly 'has this been advertised somewhere'. Often a question is posed that way, for example at ANI, when a procedural step has been omitted. Hence the 'advertising'. I had thought your comment was referring to vote stacking, or selective canvassing where you ask a few friends to vote a particular way.
The category sort of thing doesn't seem immediately explained by the criteria page, that leaves a gap in my understanding. I would expect intuitively it's simply a matter of the image being specific to a topic. would that be about right ? Penyulap

Time is running out[edit]

Would this make a nice userbox?--Canoe1967 (talk) 22:19, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I expect parts of it would, small details are hard to see sometimes. I have technical difficulty extracting frames from oggs at the moment, but no trouble extracting from mp4's. Did you do the rendering and so forth ? That is impressive work. Penyulap

Thank you. I built the whole thing from scratch in Second Life using open source vehicle scripts. I just rode it around and filmed myself. I was thinking of including a wikilink to the video inside the userbox. They can play the tiny version, or link to the full size.--Canoe1967 (talk) 00:53, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

What did you film it in ? if you can film yourself riding back(omg what am I saying) If you can jump in your santa sleigh(have to stop laughing as i type) if you film yourself in mp4 going flat across the userbox I can put that into a userbox, like this
TrainsSmokeSteam engineTenderCoachesBanditsPentrain.gif

You can ride through your userbox over and over again until Christmas, with the countdown in the background, I can do that easy. Like "Santa doesn't stop for another 177 days" and then on Christmas he can stop, or stop and go in loops or whatever. Penyulap

I used Machinima. Here is a better one I did:

If I change the song, it may pass copyright issues.--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:13, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Very easy to do, there are a LOT of audio 'tracks' :) on commons. Penyulap
Actually, I remember that song being public domain, but USA only possibly. I will upload it to wikipedia, and after I find the status I can move it to commons.--Canoe1967 (talk) 16:45, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
In "Smoking Iron on Cold Steel.avi" the train doesn't pass through the camera view side on, so it's cool for me to pick out another shot ? or are you thinking to do another ? It will probably be fine, but I'll zoom in somewhat as there are just 50 pixels in a userbox to work with vertically. Penyulap

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I uploaded it to wikipedia.1024x708 or I could just log into SL, and take some screen shots of it?--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

You need to change the license to SA3 so it can be used. copyright is the wrong kind of license. SA3 is what you are describing.

(removed video, it doesn't seem to work properly, I will process the youtube version as an example)

don't worry if it takes a long time to load, it is doing that because wikipedia is sending the entire footage to your browser for compression there. Later it will be compressed before being sent.
as you can see when it's compressed it's hard to see. I can choose scenes and zoom in on the train, so that you can see parts of it clearly, I can just use my own intuition at first if you like, it might be easiest that way. cool ? Penyulap
Do you want the full size original.avi? I can put it on an ftp for you. I changed the tag as well.--Canoe1967 (talk) 00:34, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
No I am using the youtube video. be aware that you won't like the result. but I'll tell you what to do to make a new one. Penyulap
I hope to refilm the whole thing anyway. I have made reins since to link all the deer and sleigh, plus I need to get a 3D mouse to film smoother and use full screen. I controlled the camera on screen that is why it is only 708 high. I cropped out the mouse interface. You can see my earlier progressions on the same youtube channel--Canoe1967 (talk) 03:59, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Give me 3 mins, I just got back from lunch, I am uploading now. Penyulap
Here is about the first half of it, as I had loaded up the project on a smaller machine. But you can get the idea of shots that are good, and shots that are too fine in their detail.
74pxThis user made
an Animation of a train


Very good work. Is this one more accurate though?

74pxThis user made
a CGI video of a train using Machinima.

--Canoe1967 (talk) 04:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

yes of course, although, about the video, do you want the start cut off, cut short, or to do another video optimised for the box now you can see what parts look best ? give it some thought, actually I'm sure you will, take your time ! Penyulap
I trust your artistic tastes. The beginning b/w credits don't need to be there. A few 'frame groups' from the best sections that work in low rez is a good plan?--Canoe1967 (talk) 05:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Always a good plan, I always optimize. The little train at the beginning of the section is 50 KB. You're one won't be like that however, it's 3 MB at the moment. I'll do it in a little while, you should consider in the next few days if you want to make another one that is pre-optimized with conversion to UBX in mind. Let me know about that in a day or so. Penyulap
Smoking Iron on Cold Steel.gifThis user made
a CGI video of a train using Machinima.

Here is the 2MB version, the reason it is still so large is the high framerate, and the nature of the shots, where the background moves. If the background (and camera) was still in each shot as the train moved, it'd be much smaller. also, the framerate could be reduced, I'm not sure how fast (smooth) you'd like it, it's at 100ms per frame in this version.

I think there are too many wheels running over the camera in this version, it makes no real difference to the size of the file though. The long trip across the bridge sucks a lot of bytes, it could be say 2x faster ? or shorter ? Penyulap 12:12, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Would it look too choppy if you just used the sections in close detail? You may have to fade frames then. Another plan would be to just use the best section and only a few seconds? I put the link to the full size video in the gif page if they want to see more. Less frames and normal speed may be best for the userbox, and we could even put a link to the main video in the user box?

I had intended to link to the full video before, but forgot to, I just fixed it as you can see. The shorter the sections of video that you post to me the better as a rule. Penyulap 19:13, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Smooth and shorter is fine with me if that is what you mean. I have to go for 1-2 hours, so I will let you work on it.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:20, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

argh! nothing to work on ! the current box is ok, the advice is for any further ones I'd figure. Penyulap

I tried the ogg link--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:31, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

cool, if you need any more editing done, chop the video down to what is required in the userbox, cool ? Penyulap

I ask you one thing:Why can't you use Electric engines other than steam engines?--Monareal (talk) 07:58, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I guess there is no problem with that idea, what train did you have in mind ? can you show me a picture of it ? Penyulap

We may have a bad plan here. My sys seems to slow and howl every time I load a page with the userbox that plays the full video url in thumb size. Am I imagining this?--Canoe1967 (talk) 08:40, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

can you tell me how to emulate the problem ? Penyulap

Find a 7 year old computer that has never had the dust cleaned from the fans like mine? It gives me an excuse to buy a smoke filled one. Computers run on smoke. When all the smoke comes out of all the holes, you need a new one.--Canoe1967 (talk) 09:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if I have any other kind of computer. But do as I do and use the vacuum cleaner to suck up all the dust, and if you want to go overboard use a dry paintbrush as well. But you do not need to clean all, or completely. just stick the vacuum onto the CPU fan and it'll actually do a good job of cleaning it in about 2 seconds, and that's all, it's better than it was and will take another year to gather enough to worry about. Also, if you are using windows, dump that crap. It has so got to die. Go Ubuntu, if you're not sure, go ubuntu Live CD. It is easier to install the entire ubuntu operating system than it is to install any windows program whatsoever, I kid you not, it has become that good. No viruses EVER, no spy/mal/crap ware ever again. Penyulap

My comp has not much problems although it is 9 years old. I work on wikipedia by another laptop--Monareal (talk) 06:20, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Break section[edit]

Isn't there issues with vacuum cleaners generating static? I have thought about ubuntu. With the live cd, do I just set to boot from cd, and will it run all my windows programs?--Canoe1967 (talk) 16:47, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

there is nothing to worry about with static, it's overhyped. If you don't manage to zap yourself touching door handles in the house then everything is fine. If you think of the computer as the person you want to zap, and first touch the case as you go to work on it that is good, you'll zap the case which is a harmless act and then can work on it's insides. You can't zap the person twice without another walk across the floor. same with the vaccuum cleaner. You have no chance of wrecking the computer by static.
There are almost no programs that are tied to windows now the way that Wii games are tied to Wii. everything that you can think of that you want to do can be done on ubuntu, but faster cheaper and the software actually works. Most office style programs have the proper opensource equivalent which reads and write to files of any format so you can write a ms word doc for the boss with open software.
to boot the live cd, the computer has to be able to boot from a cd first, so just try it and see, if it doesn't go first time you press F2 or F12, or do as i do and press all the F keys like a piano until it says going to settings, then look for boot options and tell it to look for the cd first before the hard drive, and then you're good to go.
things that are good about taking the time to run a live cd is that you never go back and you get your whole life back by no longer having any kind of virus malware spyware or crashing ever again. there are no viruses ever on ubuntu. Penyulap 17:06, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking of the static built up while the vacuum is running, caused by the friction of two insulators (dust and plastic hose). I have seen industrial vacuum system sparks jump over an inch every few seconds when running. Would I need to get ubuntu versions of all my XP programs then? Some I paid for and all my install CDs disappeared one cleanup day. Would I have to boot with windows to run those or buy new ones? My computer has a 'press any key to boot from CD' on a timer now, and I know how to access the BIOS to change boot order etc.--Canoe1967 (talk) 17:54, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

nothing to worry about there, there is no real potential available or a way to collect it. If you actually get static in your house and get zapped when touching doors, you can wait until a rainy day, let the moist air go through the house with an open door and it will kill all the static, make it next to impossible to make the rub feet on carpet thing work. The sparks within the motor don't matter at all. Static can have a high electron potential, but the motor sparks are too confined and low potential by comparison. They are really different in their nature. GO THE VACUUM CLEANER, trust me, the danger is only from hitting the computer components, changing their seatings and connections like the cards and so forth. just be gentle and all will be well.
you can get opensource programs to replace all your windows software right now actually, that run on windows or run on ubuntu. You don't buy anything anymore there is no need at all. a good idea, if you really want to spend money, if you can afford it is a new hard drive, it costs the same as any windows program, but would give you a great deal more storage. you can use ebay to find a local to you seller where someone will sell you a new one from their house for next to nothing, new straight from asia. 1 or 2 thousand gigabytes for about $100 or 60 euro i think it is.
you can check out most of the programs and so forth on the live cd, you can actually install programs into the memory when you run the livecd as ubuntu doesn't usually need to be restarted when you install a program. Penyulap 18:26, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
just have a google for ubuntu windows equivalent programs or something and include the name of the program, you probably won't need to get into the big guns problem solving at all, it's quite easy with a fast google. Penyulap 18:30, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


Hey Penyulap, thanks for letting me know about the new template and bot. I've already applied them to the Genesis I and II articles, in an interesting way (epoch date in the citation, which I think works tremendously well, save for the date formatting). I noticed, though, that the bot hasn't updated statistics for those articles in a couple of days...problem? Huntster (t @ c) 05:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Hunster, I apologise I overlooked your comment on my chaotic talkpage, it is great news for me to see that the work is of use, the bot is acting normally and will soon have status information on his userpage and elsewhere to show what he is up to. I have since added access dates to the bot's features for that exact reason. I think we have simultaneously invented the idea of the epoch for access dates. Have a look over the template for the new options. Penyulap 16:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Do you know I feel like an idiot twice over now, as I had asked you to respond here so I didn't forget, and you have kindly done so... and I still overlooked it. Penyulap 16:11, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
(Wiki has eaten by reply twice now, so I'm a bit irritated...) Great to see that added feature, however I don't know that access_date, access3 or access4 serve any real function, since the first is unformatted and includes exact time, and the other two include the day of the week, none of which is desirable in a citation (or anywhere else I can think of). In any case, I'll be thinking about what other articles might want to use this function...if many more are added, might have to think about moving all data to individual subpages to keep the template from getting out of hand in size. Huntster (t @ c) 21:27, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Oh man I have a big open mouth grin, I was laughing when I looked over your last contribs and noticed you had reverted the date reformatting that NavyBlue had done. While some would say 3 and 4 are for different article formats, let's say instead they were only put there to facilitate edit warring over date formatting, omg, PALZ is one of a new series of mech trollers designed for the specific purpose of destroying the 'wik.
More seriously, there are some massively cool things to be done with the extra data-fields. I knew when I saw the TLE parsed through that we could draw ground-track maps in the articles with the ISS shown in it's current position, I figured I could do that with a selection of maps I can make, the time choosing the proper one for the ground-track, and the TLE data used for computing the absolute position of the ISS icon overlaid on the ground track image. Simple and cool. But Z said today that he can make these maps (the bottom one is the one that I could do with my skills, although come to think of it, the other two aren't so hard either) anyhow Z says the bot can do most of that kind of thing and upload images to commons.
It's all a bit more interesting than my original idea I mentioned here(the links are out of date) like more than 6 months ago, from an older still idea. Still, work on that is going ahead, not far too fast, but it's moving. The console would give you an idea of where it is up to, as the links all work. Basically any editor, regardless of their native language could write the dates of the next rockets to the ISS onto the table, and PALZ propagates the data across all the participating servers. But it's like the second Death star at the moment, big with lots of work done, but far from operational. (except for the orbital data laser blaster thing). Penyulap


Show me the page!--Monareal (talk) 10:16, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok I have done half the work at the M3 proj workspace . I'll do the rest later.--Monareal (talk) 11:50, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
I've left a note in the article. Penyulap

Where?--Monareal (talk) 14:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC) this space


Sister Wikipe-tan
I think I'll add a crucifix to this one soon either way, as it leaves such a large hole without it

Thank you for the image. If you have any other images, particularly images which might say "Christian" in some way without indicating any particular branch of Christianity, like maybe her with halo and wings, or maybe with specific individual denominational indicators, like maybe dressed as a Catholic or Orthodox nun, any such images as those would be welcome as well. I'm hoping to have some sort of "vote" next month for the Wikipe-tan to be used by the parent Christianity project, but that vote would largely be for the purposes of getting people actually involved in the project more than anything else. I very much imagine multiple images of various sorts, for all the multiple kinds of Christianity, would not only be welcome but probably rather significantly used. Thanks again. John Carter (talk) 22:37, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi John, it's not a matter of 'have' it's a matter of 'make'. I have just completed one more which is probably sufficient, although, if there is popular demand I can look at making some more for the project. Penyulap
Understood, and my apologies for the misstatement earlier. Thanks for all your work so far - it is very much appreciated, believe me. John Carter (talk) 21:05, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

WikiPrincess looking for WikiDragon to help![edit]

Hi! I just discovered that I'm a WikiPrincess and I would love to give my opinion on your edits if you are still considered a WikiDragon. I'm friendly and just want to contribute my opinion on wikipedia. :) Thepoodlechef (talk) 04:21, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

You sound like you want to help on the 'wik. Helping is a good endeavor. You can ask at the help desk where to find Wikidragons. Good luck in your 'quest' Penyulap 06:25, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


Where have you left the note?--Monareal (talk) 08:00, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

EDA!Evide ada at ezuthiyirikunathe!--Monareal (talk) 08:01, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Your Highness of the the throne of Faulkland Kingdom, King of Britain, Crown Prince to the Sultan of Turkey, King Of New Spain, Emperor of the third french Empire, President of the Salute Republic of Kazakhistan, , President of the Republic of Uzbekistan ,Gen of Uzbekh National Army, Dr Sir Penyulap VIII George VII Al Baz I Santos Manros Marinos IV Napoleon IV Hased John Lord Alfech, Wellington I ask your Honour that you shall complete all the infobox work by tommorow,Sir.--Monareal (talk) 15:20, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, when you put it that way, I should have another look at it, but I don't think it will get too far. Where did we put it btw ? Penyulap

I think one thing is left:Format it into template language--Monareal (talk) 04:46, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Nuns with guns[edit]

I don't do graphics. Ten Pound Hammer(What did I screw up now?) 18:03, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

sweet I was more after delete than anything else, I can re-upload the good part of the image. Penyulap 18:09, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


PenMatrixLogin.gifThis user no longer requires hardware to login to the WikiMatrix.(can be customized)

I just made another userbox, I had no idea about this until an hour before it was finished. What do you think ? To add the userbox to your userpage, you cut and paste this text to your userpage

{{User:Penyulap/UBX/PenMatrixLogin}} Penyulap 08:33, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


Hi there Penyulap. Regarding PALZ9000's updating of the ISSIB template, could you please use a more informative edit summary than "Nothing to see here) move along please (nothing to see". Thanks, - Kingpin13 (talk) 14:51, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes indeed, that was put there originally because the programmer was quite obsessed that the edit summary should say precisely which stations were being updated, I had caused that trouble in the first place by trying to make the previous summary as interesting as possible.
I was concerned that I was causing useless busywork, diverting his incredible assistance from more important matters. I have updated the edit summary, how does it look now? history Penyulap
It's quite wordy, but looks okay to me now. Thanks, - Kingpin13 (talk) 16:16, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
I have shortened it by about 40 % Penyulap 16:47, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
That looks great, thank you for your quick response. - Kingpin13 (talk) 23:34, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Penyulap, would it be possible for the bot to add a comma between day and year to the access1 and access4 parameters for proper MDY formatting? Huntster (t @ c) 21:14, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Possible ? it's done already ! is it Ok, that is the question now. Penyulap 21:24, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
Oi, that was fast! Yeah, looks great, thanks! Huntster (t @ c) 21:25, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
You're welcome. Penyulap 21:29, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

It's a shambles 先輩|do this work![edit]

You!!!!!!Did you forget about the infobox?Hurry up!It is going into shambles! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Monareal (talkcontribs) 12:05, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I found the nice tool I would have like to use for it, it's called category tree, but alas I don't think it can be used for a template, so I figure it's back to the drawing board. Possibly just the rather more popular 'show' can be used. Penyulap

Edo!Chinese ezutate vellavum cheye!--Monareal (talk) 17:29, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I found the right template to use on your homework. Now where did we leave your homework, teacher wants to help you. Penyulapm̩

Edo! Pani cheye!--Monareal (talk) 11:14, 11 April 2012 (UTC) De avande kutti adichu potichu.

It's definitely not a good thing, there are Firefox browser add-ons which can alert you, by shaking the browser window, to earthquakes in far off places. For earthquakes in places close to you, the whole monitor shakes, and it's no add-on. Penyulap

I've never been on my laptop during any of these earthquakes.--Monareal (talk) 11:41, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I've had plenty of warnings through my computer. Penyulap

Post it on the main page--Monareal (talk) 11:52, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

it's probably already there, plus there would already be an article starting if there has been widespread damage. Penyulap
It is here and here, and it's been like an hour or one and a half hours since it happened. Penyulap

--Monareal (talk) 12:01, 11 April 2012 (UTC)Another Tsunami alert after another 8.5 strikes Banda Aceh

there has been some minor damage, but a lot more panic than usual, because people have learnt their lesson for a while at least after the last one. My friend in Jakarta says she didn't feel anything, but that is a fair distance away from Aceh. Penyulap

What lesson? You should know how people survived there. That time(2004) I was just smaller than a poonch. Anyway we are in Thiruvananthapuram, IND which is about 1900km away from the main epicentre. The tsunami warning has been extended for 2-3 hours. It is almost 6 here. We are about 6 km from the coast. Electric power is lost in Banda Aceh--Monareal (talk) 12:28, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

power is always lost in aceh, and anywhere outside of the major cities. Penyulap

You did'nt respond to this: That time(2004) 'I was just smaller than a poonch. Anyway we are in Thiruvananthapuram, IND which is about 1900km away from the main epicentre. The tsunami warning has been extended for 2-3 hours. It is almost 6 here. We are about 6 km from the coast.' Anyway, eyewitnesses in Aceh Province quote that waves have gone about 10 metres from the coast. Our Chief Minister Oommen Chandy says there is no need for people to worry but he and a few other district collectors have required people to stay in office for 24 hours. Currently, the tsunami alert is 99.9% lifted. --Monareal (talk) 12:45, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

well I think that you don't need to worry about the quake or a Tsunami. Penyulap

The People of the Indian Coast (I had not) , Coastal People's Republic of China, Malayasia, Singapore had felt Earthquakes already in (about) 2 o clock IST and 4:16 o Clock IST. Anyway no tsunami waves reached Aceh or anywhere else in Sumatra or Indonesia and its neighbours--Monareal (talk) 12:55, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

It depends a lot on the quake itself, what kind of quake it is and where it is, not so much on the distance to the epicenter. The Mexico quake for example, that is going to wipe out like no quake ever has, but there is not much that can do to fix it. Penyulap

I just wanted to say…[edit]

Laughing point.svg The Laughing Nutter
…you're one of the most stubborn people here on wiki (welcome to the club, /o\ :) and i actually enjoyed ← great monstruosity reading some of your *humorous* comments at WT:WPWPA Face-grin.svg. I thought of paying you in cupcakes but then your talkpage would have been littered ^^ so here's a nutty laughpoint. Strive! benzband (talk) 18:23, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, and do please feel free to trash my page, please be a slave to your whims with no regard for order. Penyulap

(grumble) there are no cupcakes on the pew page. (hmph) Penyulap
Aha, that's because all they all ended up dying of indigestion ~ so the admins decided to stop the slaughter by banning their use and introducing barnstars instead. :/ benzband (talk) 19:01, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Well I think for future reference they haven't made specific rulings in regards to bento, but then again we don't have much bento on wiki, but we have some lovely sushi. I'm not into raw food so much, but I can always cook what I'm given, just to be a culinary heretic. Penyulap
Would you really cook ANYTHING!??? benzband (talk) 15:05, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
meh Penyulap

I guess you're hungry…[edit]

Taitung ekiben Taiwan.jpg …so here's some Bento!™
Because people keep giving you indigestible cookies and the likes :P and we can't have our fellow 'pedians starving. Let me share this with you… OOPS, DINNERTIME, gotta GO! (i've got some little red gnomes on the fire) benzband (talk) 15:03, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Y U M thank you ! Penyulap

Do Say!!!!!!!!!!!!![edit]

King Sir Lord Earl Dr Lt Gn Col Penylap VIII Please finish the work in the infobox. I no student and you no teacher.

Mach Keto?--Monareal (talk) 12:13, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

you no kidding. Penyulap

I no Kidding and you no work. Just finish off the work without kidding or bidding. No time for jokes--Monareal (talk) 12:43, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

no bidding won't work,
no kidding no smirk,
it's 6 days too late,
to finish 'e template,
so how bout you do your own work?

....and another 5.3 aftershock off Sumatra. Penyulap

Just***********And do the work--Monareal (talk) 17:18, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I can't even remember what work it was. Penyulap

Just ******************** and finish the infobox. And finish that by 17 April 2012. I dont know what to do with that. That is why I ask you to finish it--Monareal (talk) 11:27, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

But I can't remember where it is. Penyulap

You know User:Monareal/spacestationworkspace?And I have 30099897786762665tons of work in wikipedia along with 52625622222222222222222222222222222222222222533333333333333333333332653726826374368756348753638tons to do personally?--Monareal (talk) 11:33, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Arabian Special Award:Hoisted by Monareal News Service[edit]

Abu Dhabi on 27 December 2007 Pict 13.jpg In honor of Fahd of Saudi Arabia ,President Anwar El Sadat and Mir Mahboob Ali khan of Hyderabad State You have been presented the 1st Arabian Special Award for April 14 2012 for your respectable, notable and needed work in wikipedia in the Imaginary Venue of Cairo International Stadium, Cairo. Monareal (talk) 11:31, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
and here I was thinking nobody noticed all my hard work. Penyulap 11:42, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

And I here was thinking these:

Whom to give this award tommorow(April 15 2012)

Username Contributions Your Choice
User:WDGraham 42(from April 9)
User:POISK-300 4(from 2011)(I mean he knows to do edits well)

And visit this:User:Monareal/Progress Workspace 1Make your comments--Monareal (talk) 13:16, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

well, I think you could make POISK-300 a bit funnier really, as he hasn't done much. You are rather funny, so I see no reason why you can't improve him. Penyulap

And now he has done more than 10--Al Sheik!Woiu! (talk) 18:36, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I think the table here could use a little fixing too. Penyulap 12:02, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


Your signature seems to be lacking timestamps. This creates a problem because archive bots look for timestamps in signatures to know when a thread should be archived as well as just helping readers when viewing a discussion in general. Please make the appropriate fixes. Thank you. Killiondude (talk) 05:04, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Sure, no problem. I usually just left it off in cases where a response would immediately follow, to make things neat, but this is the first complaint, I shall fix the problem by adding more timestamps from now on, where abouts is the problem page, if you'd like me to add timestamps in retrospect. Penyulap 11:20, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


And Dr Penyulap, Never forget User:Monareal/spacestationworkspace.--Al Sheik!Woiu!I do not fish! (talk) 05:32, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Draw the information into a regular table, the same as you know how to do, then I'll format it a bit for you ok ?? Penyulap
I can't even read that Sire!Sire!--Al Sheik!Woiu!I do not fish! (talk) 04:51, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Squire, Squire, you named them all, as I recall, specifications, designations. I think you're able, to make a table, so if you remember them, as you enter them, I'll give it some swish, just as you wish. Penyulap

Ok Mir Osman Ali Khan, but you Oh Asaf Jah VII, the Nizam who lost his throne towards the Indian Union shall be understood that the workspace data can be SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT from the DRA I drafted away the PT , AB and MNO. If you did'nt understand the data I put in a box on that page, Ok?--Al Sheik!Woiu!I do not fish! (talk) 05:30, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Rtnews[edit]

Ambox warning pn.svgTemplate:Rtnews has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Dirk Beetstra T C 05:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I've asked for this template to be deleted. Penyulap 23:53, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I have formatted it into a type of table.[edit]

Yeah and to see that click this link Mir Almaat Wikipedia Station 1 --Mir Almaat 1 S1 (previously Monareal) (talk) 08:01, 21 April 2012 (UTC)


Not all comments added to a discussion need an added indent -- users actually only add one indent to the comment they're replying to. See Wikipedia:Indent. I'm mentioning this because of these: [4][5]. Don't edit other people's comments, including the way they've chosen to indent them. There's usually a reason they chose their particular indents, and even if it seems they made a mistake, it's not a good idea to try and correct them as you see fit. Just leave them alone. Thanks. Equazcion (talk) 08:02, 24 Apr 2012 (UTC)

Loud and clear, thank you Equazcion. Penyulap 08:22, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Please look at this.[edit]

Penyulap, I see that you have not reacted to ANY of only MY messages to you. Please reply to this Now visitUser:Mir Almaat 1 S1/spacestationworkspace. —Preceding undated comment added 12:00, 24 April 2012 (UTC).

I was distracted. The infobox looks great, fantastic work ! These ones
  • Egress hatch diameter 1 m
  • Mass of delivered cargoes up to 1000 kg
  • Depressurization alarms 0
  • False Depressurization Alarms 1
  • accidents
  • Pre-Docking Period (section)

could all be dumped, and you could consider including mission, like "docking module" "laboratory" some modules have both, so there'd also be "main engines" "bridge" "cargo bay" "fuel storage", things like that for other modules. It looks quite flexible which is great as well, so it can adapt to the other modules as well. It's good work. Penyulap 12:45, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. That is only a sample infobox(See Template:Infobox). We have to edit James' infobox and make it like this (as he told to do so). I don't know how to do that so after the repairs, the job is yours. I'll try to find a new image at NASA TV image gallery.--RDF Energia ASHTS) From UTC 05:30, 05:07, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I've added main engines and a few other things I thought would be useful. I did not remove accidents and depressurization alarms although I removed a couple of things. I did not add bridge, laboratory, cargo bay and fuel storage as none of those is mentioned in the Poisk article. I've darkened the background of headers as they look too light.--RDF Energia (talk:Nordak Island Communication Station) 05:31, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I've proposed for wikiproject ISS too.--RDF Energia (talk:Nordak Island Communication Station) 07:03, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

You have not told anything.--RDF Energia (talk:Nordak Island Communication Station) 05:39, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

That's not what I mean about engines, I mean different modules have different missions, for this one, it would be like this:

  • Station International Space Station
  • Mission EVA airlock, laboratory, docking port
  • Nation Russia Russia
  • Organization Roskosmos
  • Contractor RSC Energia

By all means include what you like, I just foresee that it would be a target of criticism as it is a parameter that does not vary a great deal from one module to the next, so it's not the kind of thing to have in the infobox, same with accidents as there have been no accidents on any module. Penyulap 07:28, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Do all your edits and put the infobox on User:Mir Almaat 1 S1/Infobox Workspace 2 Buuu hu ! Hu!Huu!Buuaho!Ahu!Buuu!Huhu!

Buuuuuuuuuuu!Hu Hu!--DSRAB Yo Man 12:18, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Don;t cry sir, I know tommorow Progress M-14M will die.

Progress M-14M
25 January 2012-28 April 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by POISK-300 (talkcontribs) 06:15, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Certainly I shall not cry, for it is a blaze of glory across the heavens, heroes from times ancient to times present have wished for such an end. It is a grand machine, with nothing more to want. Reliable, frequent, a marvel of engineering second to none, the best in it's class with no peer. Penyulap 06:26, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Tommorow is the Funeral.Buuuuuuuuuuuu HuHuHu!!RDF Energia | 06:28, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

And I've look at thisUser:Mir Almaat 1 S1/Infobox Workspace 2RDF Energia | 06:29, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Graveyard at Pacafic Ocean I've wanted to dive into that spacecraft graveyard to see and excavate from Progress-1-Progress M13M Any look at this User:Mir Almaat 1 S1/Infobox Workspace 2 —Preceding undated comment added 06:41, 27 April 2012 (UTC).

Pirs and Poisk have the same missions, but Pirs isn't a laboratory. Penyulap 08:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

We've tons of Work to complete. Mir Almaat has set up a deadline of 1 January 2013. That's definetly a lot of time,but i'll be semi-active from 26 may. What is the temperature in your place?Anyway do your edits and put on the workspace and I'll take a look at it do comment on it. You are free to do anything on me, including editing my userpage.RDF Energia | 10:42, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I have climate control, yes, there is plenty of time, some of it is not too hard, usually the first infobox is the hardest. Penyulap 10:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes and just do your edits and tell me when it is finished.RDF Energia | 11:03, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

andyom vareyum ene kaval chetituvan andi

Ge youlla navabal shakti ne ye.
Ene aurthu
Geyoulla navabal shakti ne ye.RDF Energia | 04:58, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

CBAGFEDC CBAGFEDC Amen! Andyom vareyum!

This is what is going on at the spacecraft cemetery.RDF Energia | 04:58, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Dr Penyulap ?RDF Energia | 05:32, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Editors Barnstar Hires.png The Editor's Barnstar
For Your Role in the establishment of the Government of Korilos(I mean your Edititing makes a fine structure like a government at both Workspaces) Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 06:48, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

And what does PALZ9000 do?--Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 07:29, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you ! Palz ? he's a bit like that half built death star at the moment, that second one that orbits that moon with the ewoks that live in the trees. I like the walkers, they were cool. some functions are working, and parts of it are built, but it's not finished just yet. Editors, regardless of what language they read and write, could edit the launch table to put the latest fleet movements on it, change dates and so forth, and then Palz would translate and assemble the launch tables, lists and so on, across all the participating wikipedias. The PALZ console should probably be part of his userpage I guess.
It would allow someone in Beijing who saw a news release about a delay or something regarding the date of the rocket launch to update a lot of pages in a lot of languages by just editing one page, even if he or she only reads and write in Chinese, they could update all the other articles because PALZ would translate everything into the local language.
So German editors can edit the English wikipedia, and Japanese editors can edit the Spanish article. That's the mission, however of course there are few if any editors that use wikipedia outside maybe a dozen or two languages, and certainly not the 77 that the article is in. Most of those pages are too basic to have a table really, but meh, it's a logical dynamic to work on. Penyulap 10:50, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Sef Otshef Weimark Ahgg Bismack Ji hu ft u hgf yyh yhha hhhhaf jjkf hhaf ggsMir Almaat Ali Almaat 11:41, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

my thoughts exactly. Penyulap 11:48, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Isvol!Isvol!Isvolllllllllllllllll!Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 11:50, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

And I had a chat with palzMir Almaat Ali Almaat 11:50, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

And Progress M-14M was buried at 1 o clock GMT Today.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 16:09, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Dragon (spacecraft) and utter confusion[edit]

I am simply beside myself on trying to understand what it is that you are trying to express with your concerns about the Dragon spacecraft. If you are trying to propose a reorganization of the article, would you at least say that in your comments? Short pithy answers which are personal insults don't work very well and tend to make consensus in developing an article impossible.

If you have a legitimate concern with this article, I want to know what you are looking to see changed. The way you raised the question on the talk page made it sound like you were making a question more appropriate for the reference desk rather than something constructive in building an article. I still don't completely understand what you are confused about, or if you really are trying to find some information. Please explain clearly, in English (or in your native language if you can't write in English very well) just what you are looking for. --Robert Horning (talk) 21:19, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I apologize for the confusion caused by the short answer, which I have changed. Also, as you have brought up the subject of civility, it's rather insulting to yell at someone NOTAFORUM when they are using the talkpage correctly, making a simple observation of a shortcoming of that article, in the correct place, in the correct form.
Also you appear rather dismissive of what I'm confident many editors would find valid, that is, if you are talking about a spacecraft or rocket, it's important to mention where it is. where the launchpad is, where the spacecraft is. The article has none of that, it could be in Turkey or Guam for all the reader knows.
I've adjusted the remarks on the talkpage to clarify them, and expanded upon the explanation, also replied to someone else as well, should be good to go now. Penyulap 23:02, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for at least changing this from what appeared to be just a general query for information to a criticism of the organization of the article. I admit that trying to find the information for where the launch of this vehicle is typically taking place takes a careful reading of the article and a couple of different clicks before you get to LC-40 in Florida. At least that is something which can be addressed or at least discussed on the talk page. --Robert Horning (talk) 00:20, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Few other spacecraft pages link back to their launch sites. The current standard is spacecraft/payloads link to their launcher, and then the launchers link to their launch sites. Sometimes, particular missions get their own page, in which case the mission page links up the launcher, launch site, and spacecraft/payload. If you'd like to see this changed, perhaps bring the issue up in Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight so we can change this across all spacecraft or lists of launches. --IanOsgood (talk) 01:26, 29 April 2012 (UTC) (P.S. I didn't appreciate your argumentative tone in this discussion. You came across as rather juvenile and hotheaded.)

IanOsgood, I didn't appreciate being yelled at in capital letters that it's NOTAFORUM after I simply asked 'where', which is a fair, relevant, question that has been addressed now by an independent editor. As you can see above your text, the editor and I have discussed and settled the issue already. (although the capital letters remain, which is fine, as I have said my piece, and I personally retracted anything that editor was unhappy with)
If I ask what place or where the lauchpad is, that is not an argument, that is an appropriate question for the talkpage. Would you like to elaborate on any comments that you did not like in particular, I'd be happy to rephrase for you. Penyulap 04:57, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

VPR post[edit]

Saying "This is so cool," and "I love it," when you actually mean to criticize something for being the opposite = sarcasm. Unless you actually do love the way this feature is implemented and think it's cool; but then, I doubt you'd see a reason to go "complain to your congressman" about it -- which is again sarcastic, unless you're actually considering that, in which case we have a different problem.

Be more choosey about the volume of sarcasm you dump into a post. People will appreciate and be more likely to offer constructive feedback on your posts if they don't see you being so incredibly flip and obnoxious about your (apparently serious) concerns. Equazcion (talk) 01:19, 29 Apr 2012 (UTC)

I was of at least 3 minds about that one really. A consensus between my different points of view, like 'it's a problem and needs improvement' and 'Actually this is a completely fair indication of what a newbie should expect from wikipedia' and 'well it's not like anyone cares, it's dgaf's all around' and then feeding them into the equation and it spat out pretty much about the right volume. However, as usual I epically fail in being anything but a goofball even when I have something important like this to say. I figure it is the place to say it as good as anywhere for two good reasons, one, it doesn't indicate where it comes from, and also important, is the second reason, that the query is a cautionary tale for most of us who participate and help at the pump, to see that we need to place tags and links into new things that we do, so that when problems arise, we will know about them, rather than have the corporate sarcasm 'your call is important to us'. Because really, looking at the screenshot, sarcasm is exactly the message that the feedback box is giving, we want your feedback, please file it in device /null. Thank you for your co-operation. Am I wrong here ? Penyulap 04:09, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I agree with you in that website feedback systems are generally not inviting, and ours isn't any better.
  • I also agree that a link to Wikipedia:New editor feedback could probably be placed there, so that experienced editors will know where that feature's details are.
Your presentation of these opinions was, nevertheless, something far off from "goofball". It was simply sarcastic. You said you love it, when you hate it; it's cool, when you obviously think it's not; that you might complain to your congressman, when you obviously won't.
What's wrong with simply saying what you mean? How bout "I hate this. It is not cool. It seems to be saying that our users' opinions are not important to us."
That's not to say a little sarcasm doesn't have its place. But, a little. In this case it enveloped your entire post. I understand having an emotional urge to present this as sarcasm, because you think it sucks; but this isn't a radio show. Show a bit of restraint. It will only benefit you. Equazcion (talk) 04:24, 29 Apr 2012 (UTC)
I DO NOT hate it. please allow me the dignity of being the final arbiter on what I think and feel. I do not hate it. It is a good reflection of the current state of affairs of wikipedia. That said, I have no hesitation to assist the editors who want to fix this problem. I'm not the kind of person who will stand silent when your fly is open or something is stuck in your teeth, I'll quietly let you know to save embarassment. Something is wrong, I think it's a fair reflection of community standards, but that does not mean I will be a juvenile little prick and not tell anyone, if you drop money from your pocket and I don't particularly like you, I'll still mention it to you. Just because I debate and don't agree with someone doesn't mean I'll be petty.
re congressman, I don't have one and won't write a letter, that's a conversational quote phrase sort of thing, like in Age of Empires where it's like "Talk to your ISP sir" that kind of thing. So no I won't be writing a letter, and if I say I died laughing, there is no need to call the ambulance (well, not for that reason by itself)
Anyhow, I'll be clearer to say that I do like something and elaborate on why I do like it, so it's not taken as sarcasm. I'll have you liking it before I'm done too, if I elaborate too much :) Penyulap 04:40, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of sarcasm. However I'll just point out that not once did I say you should be silent. I said your presentation could use work. Good luck. Equazcion (talk) 04:42, 29 Apr 2012 (UTC)
Thank you Equazcion, I'll put in more effort. Penyulap 05:55, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Monareal NSI[edit]

Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 10:43, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I was at the Fernando Catherdral, it was a lovely service, but I didn't see you there ?? Penyulap 10:46, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I was at the St George Orthodox Cathedral which is about 11,000 km away.And it would take at least 9562 telephone towers to reach there.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 11:04, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

And what about the infobox?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 04:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC) I have been working on the ISS infobox, perhaps it will give you some ideas on what we can do for the modules, but I haven't put it in yet. Penyulap 04:59, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Excuse Me Dr Penyulap, But see this : Kvant-1Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 05:02, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

looks ok, i think mission should have something more, like MIR laboratory, observatory, because it's a bit obvious already it's part of MIR, so may as well say something else about the mission rather than simply re-iterate. Penyulap 05:16, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Funeral square shot.jpg

And Think this was happening at Progress M-14Ms funeral?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 05:06, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

There I am, the one in white. See, I look great in white. Penyulap 05:16, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

You are at the Pope's funeral!(John Paul II'S) And those whites are all Priests!Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 05:19, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes of course, and then there is me. Penyulap 05:22, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Lots of chit-chat fills the page, goto this link instead, so we can chat. Penyulap 05:26, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I cant login there, Use My talk page or this one and create the talk pageMir Almaat Ali Almaat 05:29, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

why can't you login ? do you have a screenshot ? Penyulap 05:30, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

First thing:I like to chat to wikipedians in wikipedia itself. Second thing: I'm under age.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 05:33, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

My idea is to carry on the chat that is above, without violating this, I have no interest in dating through the internet. (sorry everyone) <sound of 100 hearts breaking> Penyulap 05:42, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

We are speaking about work things!Not social networking!Well, I have 66616526152661625 tons to do on wikipedia and I thing you'll do the work at Novogrod Almaat Workspace.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 05:46, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Let me know how you go with it, and if you have problems just ask. Penyulap 05:49, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

It is a workspace of my own and can we start discussions at User talk:Monereal?It has to be created. The doppelganger account is there but no talk page. Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 05:52, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Penyulap. You have new messages at Monereal's talk page.
Message added 06:15, 30 April 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 06:15, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Teahouse logo
Hello! Penyulap, you are invited to join other new editors and friendly hosts in the Teahouse. An awesome place to meet people, ask questions and learn more about Wikipedia. Please join us! Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 06:34, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Penyulap. You have new messages at Monereal's talk page.
Message added 09:42, 30 April 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 09:42, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Penyulap. You have new messages at Monereal's talk page.
Message added 09:43, 30 April 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 09:43, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


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Hello, Penyulap. You have new messages at Monereal's talk page.
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Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 09:44, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Penyulap. You have new messages at Monereal's talk page.
Message added 09:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 09:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


Arent you caring about your talkpage?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 11:35, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

how do you mean ? Penyulap 13:13, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd send you a talkback 6 times.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 04:18, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Teahouse logo
Hello! Penyulap, you are invited to join other new editors and friendly hosts in the Teahouse. An awesome place to meet people, ask questions and learn more about Wikipedia. Please join us! Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 06:34, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

You Penyulap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Mir Almaat Ali Almaat 05:04, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Penyulap!Can't you hear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![edit]


Penyulap!!!Aren't you seeing your talk page?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 11:08, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
what's that ringing in my ears ? Penyulap 11:09, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

☏:trrring!Penyulap! See!!What!!is above!!this section!!Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 11:11, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

yes, well, what ? Penyulap 11:16, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

☏:trrring!:The Teahouse invitation!!Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 11:19, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 11:32, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

That is enough. No need for your help at anything[edit]

Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 11:36, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Nothing.11:36, 2 May 2012 (UTC)Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30)


{{The grumpy award}} Ha!!!Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 11:40, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

) I haven't been saying anything because I have nothing to say. Penyulap 11:52, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on this or I will be flying in the air in an F-16 , ready to shoot you!Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 11:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I had facialized Dr Tenniel, but he just looks grumpy.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 11:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm a bit busy at the moment, but looking at the image, I see that you don't have a clear direction for the work, it's good to have in mind what it is that you want to communicate to the viewer first, then thinking of all the ways of conveying that message, and then seeing what is easy / what you can do, and go from there. A bit busy at the moment. Penyulap 12:39, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


trring!!!,Penyulap! I've almost spent $135,000 for about 12,986 telephones and 3 calls. Uhhh!What is about the infobox!?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 04:58, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
I hate to butt in, but could you find a less annoying way of trying to get Penyulap's attention? Like actually asking him a question, instead of posting walls of icons and images? Thanks. Equazcion (talk) 05:03, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Dr tennie was there a day ago . Can I tell him in peace?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 05:04, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

very well said, I do not mind to chatter with people about wiki stuff on wiki, or not wiki stuff off wiki. actual questions would be fantastic. otherwise I would be tempted to point out that I like to screen out genuine people by engaging them in fast-moving conversation, like on IRC, which I didn't get back into until Z asked me, and it is cool. It is good to verify an 'accent' (like in speech), when it is hard to see in text, and text has a visible accent, but it is more pronounced when it is typed quickly.
for the record, Equazcion is welcome to vandalize, order, clear, or edit all my pages and alternate accounts as he sees fit with/without my knowledge or permission. Penyulap 06:04, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Is it time to edit the old infobox with the new one?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 06:05, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Which one, there are two here they have substantial differences. Penyulap 06:41, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

That is because I don't have 71% info on Pirs. Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 06:47, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

delete one of the boxes, and make a list of the information that you cannot find anywhere and I can answer. Penyulap 06:53, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Click the edit button, and look which data sections I've abandoned and look at their label sections

for e.g
if a section is like this-
label29 = launch date
data29 = 24 December 1982
I've filled it.
but if a section is like this
label40 = Reentry date
data40 =

You know that I don't know what to answer that label.

Hope that helps.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 07:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Where are you talking about ? there is no label 40 Penyulap 07:06, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

This is just an example. Not reality.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 07:08, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

No reply?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 18:09, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Did you do what I told you?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 04:45, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

you can just leave out the empty label, or put 'To be decided.' Penyulap 05:27, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

What the **** are you shouting about? Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 05:29, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Ok , Penyulap now look at this page. Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 09:18, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


I read TF all the time... Is it generally accepted as a good source? I could be adding some of that stuff. BeCritical 03:51, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea what is a good source actually, I often just add three or four where a source is needed and leave it to an expert to sort if out, or just write in a manner that defines the issue with such clarity and accuracy that people are left wondering if I was there or not, see any large unref'd part of the ISS article to know what I mean. lol, but I think there is a noticeboard that you can ask at. Penyulap 04:09, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Okay thanks (: I saw you using it and thought you might know how waterproof it is. BeCritical 06:09, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Using it ? where ? Penyulap 06:16, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Formal mediation has been requested[edit]

The Mediation Committee has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Occupy Wall Street". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. Mediation is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the request page, the formal mediation policy, and the guide to formal mediation, please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate. Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by 12 May 2012.

Discussion relating to the mediation request is welcome at the case talk page. Thank you.
Message delivered by MediationBot (talk) on behalf of the Mediation Committee. 04:40, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Sweet, I guess that's a 'yes' to my request. Penyulap 04:42, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

ANI etc[edit]

Hi, I didn't want to write until the dust had settled a little. When I said thanks for the advice on my talk page I did not know that you had also written to ANI. So now here from me are the many many more thanks I owe you! Best regards, Eddaido (talk) 12:41, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

LOL and thanks you for being a reasonable editor.[edit]

"But meh, I can probably get over it by disliking you lot. :)" That made me laugh outloud. Not something that happens much when working on an encyclopedia. You seem so reasonable as an editor. Dang...what happened in your Wiki training...didn't you get the memo on fighting collaboration? ;)(I kid the Penyulap)--Amadscientist (talk) 23:09, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Amadscientist. I try to focus on the obvious fact that editors on the wik are often trying to improve the same article, I mean, if we are trying to push an old cart up the hill like an article to FA status and beyond, it can't help if everyone is pushing a different direction, people fighting is pretty hilarious when you think about it. What part of the same side aren't we all on ?
I'm glad you enjoy my refreshing approach to dispute resolution :) Naturally it's all a diabolical plot based on the fact that people can't laugh and frown at the same time. Destroying another editors foul mood is the first step in destroying the dispute, MWwwahhaHAhHAhHAHHahhahHAhHAHAaaa. ((cough), um yes, that's it, just a psychological strategy based upon statistically proven anthropological theory (cough)) Penyulap 02:46, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Request for mediation accepted[edit]

The request for formal mediation of the dispute concerning Occupy Wall Street, in which you were listed as a party, has been accepted by the Mediation Committee. The case will be assigned to an active mediator within two weeks, and mediation proceedings should begin shortly thereafter. Proceedings will begin at the case information page, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Occupy Wall Street, so please add this to your watchlist. Formal mediation is governed by the Mediation Committee and its Policy. The Policy, and especially the first two sections of the "Mediation" section, should be read if you have never participated in formal mediation. For a short guide to accepted cases, see the "Accepted requests" section of the Guide to formal mediation. You may also want to familiarise yourself with the internal Procedures of the Committee.

As mediation proceedings begin, be aware that formal mediation can only be successful if every participant approaches discussion in a professional and civil way, and is completely prepared to compromise. Please contact the Committee if anything is unclear.

For the Mediation Committee, Lord Roem (talk) 13:15, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
(Delivered by MediationBot, on behalf of the Mediation Committee.)

Pesky Express[edit]

Barnstar of Humour Hires.png The Barnstar of Good Humor
Your "Pesky Express" made me smile, which is pretty rare, as I'm disabled and often in pain. Thanks! INeverCry 03:06, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your kindness and the barnstar too, it's given me tears of joy to know I have brightened up your day considering your circumstances. Penyulap 03:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I shall turn the barnstar over to Pesky after I wipe the tears away, after all, it's hers I think :) Penyulap 03:15, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
No need for that. I gave her one as well, this time with a message calculated to avoid tears. ;) INeverCry 03:21, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
then thank you, and never avoid tears of joy ! Penyulap 03:23, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
What you're suggesting is dangerous, and could lead to a name change... ;) INeverCry 03:35, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
ha! talk links have interesting names like, 'what did I do now?' yours might suggest an exception, like when you are being human :) Penyulap 03:39, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Or when I'm watching my San Francisco Giants get lit up by the Dodgers (like right now). On a serious note, I'm showing the Pesky Express to my friend Antiquary, who's been having a hard time lately, so I think you can chalk up another smile.
Regarding my intentions, which are always the best, I got your first message right after I clicked save on Pesky's talk page, so the above barnstar should be filed in the well-earned category. INeverCry 04:09, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. If you like I can personalise one for you. Chat with Pesky to see if you can ride horseback alongside her little express and jump onto the engine and divert it to someone else's page after re-labeling. I shall help, as it is a good cause. Penyulap 04:14, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I'd love to be a part of one of your's and Pesky's works. The rider idea is very creative,(no surprise), but I'm afraid it wouldn't fit me so well. My disability makes it hard to eat alot of the time (especially not anything that could go by the description of "tasty"), so those beautiful dishes would be such a tease... Maybe you could do something small just for my user page? In the end, talking with you is nice enough though. INeverCry 04:36, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

That is a coincidence, as I have suffered from an extended period of being unable to eat properly or without pain, it was a very long time, and shaded my whole life. I have almost healed completely from the surgery they did under general anaesthetic which was weird. But now, it's weird because I don't feel all that different being able to eat a wider range of (but nowhere near all) foods, it didn't change my life as much as I thought it would.
I need some ideas to work with, so if you can describe what you would like, that will be so cool, or the kind of award. I sort of sit and stare at a blank screen otherwise. If all else fails though, a gallery to animation is easy as. Also I have a few extra trains, see the second alternative here, I have lots of fast little trains like that that run through, they haven't been uploaded onto wikipedia yet, so you can choose from a whole trainset there. Or go for a different visual effect and direction altogether, something hmm, I'm not sure what direction. Also I can mix and mod images too, like this Penyulap 04:55, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
I understand all to well what you've gone through, especially the "extended period" and "shaded" details. I'm visiting a new doctor tomorrow, so we'll see how that goes. As for ideas:
Anything I could put under or right where the big INeverCry banner is at the top of my user page. I don't know that I merit any serious awards, and I'm not grumpy all that often... I love books above all, and like anything from 1850 or earlier that's humble looking and not showy or guilded (furniture, buildings, dress, etc); secular things btw, as I lean toward Buddhism. I've found a few pics, though nothing that moves, as I'm mostly occupied with writers and books images, so I'm not nearly as advanced as you are. 90 percent of what I've done on wikipedia is related to writers...

I hope that helps a bit. If not, go with whatever you think of- I don't forsee being disappointed with anything you do, unless there were monkeys in it (I have a phobia for primates). ;) Anyways, I'm headed off to bed so I'll see you in the morning. INeverCry 06:13, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

There are two ideas that I am working on at the moment that are related in some ways, so I might hijack some of that material (I have to write it first) for this. So you'd want help to pimp up your userpage mostly, right ? Penyulap 09:21, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Any little thing that I could look at and get that same feeling the "express" gave me. INeverCry 18:59, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
I was just thinking of a few other things. I was picturing an animation with a person seated at a computer. On the screen is WP:MOS (or some other boring wp thing), like the person seated is reading or viewing that. The person looks at it for a few seconds and then their head starts to droop and they finally fall asleep with their head on the keyboard. The person would keep waking up and trying to read it but keep falling asleep.
Another was a reader seated reading, maybe for a talk page. The reader looks up after a few seconds, puts their index finger to their mouth and says shhhhh! to the viewer (us).
Also I noticed your stop signs tag at wp:barnstars talk. Maybe this could be made for a talk page topper saying something like "if you have something nice to say click here" (with a green light- this would be on top) and below this something for those who have nasty things to say with a click here that redirects them to wp:civility or something like that.
I need to start learning how to do some of these things. I only use Gimp to upload fair use writer pics or fix up pd ones. BTW, those folks over at wp:barnstars seem a bit stiff and stern for a free spirit like yourself.
Another quick ?? Have you seen or heard of anything resembling a feminism barnstar or a women's history barnstar? I wanted to give one of these a ways back but had to settle on a special barnstar.
Have a great weekend! PS- the doctor gave me a me a new medication that is helping already so more smiles may follow. (I see how this last bit sounds- but it's not something that makes me high - it's just an anti-spasmodic that makes me more comfortable.) INeverCry 23:57, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Don't worry about 'how it sounds' that's something I won't misunderstand. I've actually done a little work of a different nature but won't mention as it might spoil the surprise, but on the other hand it might totally suck :) who knows, just have to wait and see on that one.
picking out barnstars by text is not something that I do really well at all, but if you have a look in the visual gallery and choose anything I can make one for you, and label it as you want, but asking at the talkpage mentioned is the way to go finding a particular existing one.
The ideas you mention are quite cool, and I shall work on some of them according to how much work is needed for each one, some will take longer than others. Penyulap 01:56, 12 May 2012 (UTC) 01:56, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
It won't suck, I'm sure. I'll have to give some thought to the barnstars. Another idea I had comes from an old photo they used to have in B&W magazine of a silhouetted woman with a cute pony-tail ice skating around a small out-door rink. I though it might be cool to have a small animation with a little ice skater in a 3d perspective going in circles, doing laps around a little sign, etc. I just wish I had the ability to transfer this to reality from out of my head as you do. Life is too short to learn all the things I want to know...
Anyways, I have 3 user pages that I use: here, commons, and, so I've got plenty of room for your creations. Not that I want you to do a bunch specifically for me, but I would love to be one of the ones who gets to see the works you do and give them display space. INeverCry 02:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Monareal NSI[edit]

Thank you INeverCry, now it is ready for MiszaBot to archive :) Feel free to do as you please to my work or pages too. Penyulap 21:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I've done so many copy edits that now I want to ce everything. Funny that Suitsat-1 was named Ivan Ivanovich. INeverCry 00:41, 14 May 2012 (UTC)


I get the fonts I use here from Microsoft Works Word Processor on the drop down list. I think all these fonts are supported on wiki. As you can see I use AR Cena, AR Blanca, and Mistral, all of which come from MS Works. This means 100+ fonts, but let me know if you find others. INeverCry 00:53, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

There is a list here where 3 of them show up different, how many show up different on your system ? Equazicon directed me to Font family (HTML) (actually I'm flipping back and forth and realise that you know that, sorry :)
There is a for sure room for improvement and it makes me wonder which fonts work for which systems, I think making a good table would be cool, so it's easier to see what works and what doesn't for your own system, and somewhere to let editors tally which systems certain fonts will work on.
there is also room for us to put it on a wp page which is blank at the moment, so development can take place and we can link it into everything later on. Wikipedia:Font list is at the moment I write this, a redlink :) Penyulap 09:33, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Pesky Express part 2[edit]

I expected it to be the polar opposite of "sucks", and I wasn't disappointed! I had another idea for an animation:

A big tree. At the bottom of the tree is a hole. A little Alice comes walking into the picture and stops aside the hole. A little rabbit pokes out of the whole. They look at each other and the rabbit beckons to her. The rabbit disappears back down the hole, then Alice jumps or dives in.

I don't know if that's makeable, but I enjoyed picturing it in my head and writing it down...

As for Moore and the Others, I may be headed for a big expansion of one of those Others's articles, namely Mrs. Gaskell.

Thanks and more thanks for the present, and have a great weekend! (or atleast a decent one, which is what I'm trying for). INeverCry 19:09, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Generally where a character needs to act out a scene it's laborious, but I have workarounds for that in the works. Mentioning the ideas is always a great idea, it helps me a great deal to find my direction. For example, wikipe-tan in an Alice context, and so on.
Actually I kind of think it would be cool to organise a letter requesting a release for copyright so that the sculptures in the park can be included on the project. Those sculptures are inspiring, I see where he is going on every single one of them, right down to which one it was that offended the politicians who had it moved on, because they didn't like looking in the mirror when they went past. The stocks for memory was the only one I didn't understand. I hope your weekend is great. Penyulap 19:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC) 19:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
It looks like the stocks are connected with sadism in the group. In the 17th/early 18th century and before, the stocks were one of the most dreaded if not thee most dreaded forms of punishment, because people in stocks were often brutally attacked by the crowd with rocks and many other things, even to the point of maiming and death. So maybe a sadism/punishment/judging theme?
As for contacting Mikhail Shemyakin, I could ask my Russian friends. From what I've seen and read, he's a favorite of Putin's (I've seen a bronze of Putin done by Shemyakin), very rich, and a bit exclusive. His works sell for millions. We'll see. Its Art of the highest order, so the images were sorely missed, as I said on the tp. BTW, I liked the Byron letter with poetry. INeverCry 20:23, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Oh ok, it's a typo, I did not think of that :)
That being the case, he'll have someone handling the press I expect, so going through them would be even easier, that is their job and they want to be good at their job.
Thank you. Penyulap 05:56, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Ooooops! I was thinking of a completely different guy! The above stuff crossed out describes Zurab Tsereteli not Shemyakin. Sorry. I watched a documentary about Russian art several months ago and now got the 2 mixed up. I think Shemyakin may be altogether harder to find or contact. BTW, I think those stocks for memory are meant to indicate all the cruelty and sadism of the past so that it wont be repeated etc. Did you see the barnstar on your commons tp? INeverCry 06:18, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
PS - I gave 1 of your miniature barnstars to my friend on his tp. INeverCry 06:20, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Sweet, I think it is the first time ever it has been awarded ! I should work on translations for it, but it's not on my list of things to do however I would be happy to do it if asked. So if anyone does a list, I'll create the versions of the image required. Just a simple list and it wouldn't need to be labelled with which language is which, as it's irrelevant to the task. Penyulap 06:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I know it's the first time it's been awarded on My Russian friend speaks good English, so no worries on the translation front. Besides, an award looks like an award even if you cant read it. Atleast you know it's not a complaint. INeverCry 07:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Oops, I forgot I did give it to auntie Pesky ! (embarrassed). Ha! awards that look like complaints and complaints that look like awards, I guess the grumpy editor award fits that category perfectly both ways ! Penyulap 07:56, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I never cry train and horse.gif

Well, I found a horse :) and added it to the Pesky express. I had not found a suitable horse and buggy combination, what do you think ? Penyulap 08:38, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Hmmmmm. There are several issues with that horse and rider. That's a jockey riding a thoroughbred race horse, so it really doesn't fit. For train-chasing you probably want to go with a good stock horse ridden by a cowboy with a cowboy hat on. Also, you might want to slow the horse down before it runs into the back of the much slower train. ;)
PS. I'm still having physical issues, as the meds given to me aren't working as well as I had hoped. This may slow down my response time to messages. INeverCry 18:44, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes, but the horse has to go fast to keep up, because once offscreen when the jockey turns the horse around, there is quite a scramble and scuffing of hoofs as the horse slides to a complete stop and then turns around, so by the time they are back in frame they're bolting to make up for lost time. Whereas the train by contrast corners like it was on rails.
I could change the jockey colors and give him a hat and so on, though changing to a different kind of horse is not so easy right now, as I prefer to use shortcuts to the same end when they could exist in the time continuum, and that one has some shortcuts, although they don't present at present. :) (where are stresses in the English language when you need them?)
It's cool, take your time. Penyulap 07:11, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Nice timing...[edit]

Make my day a little more gothic? LOL! I used to be very active as an artist. These last few months I have been a bit ill (no need for any sympathy it's hereditary...I blame the parents. Bwahahaha.), I can't sit very long or stand very long sometimes, (or walk or lay down. It's Gout) and it makes it impossible (for obvious reasons) to drive or run sewing machines (foot peddle is impossible to control. I make different stuff) but since i haven't used a brush and canvas in years. I started a painting...of a Victorian Gothic Castle. LOL! I can stand or sit as needed a lot longer then just sitting and my foot isn't required to do anything. It's a very "halloween" looking image. Here is the subject. Preston Castle, in California. Thanks for the Donut of Doom! LOL!--Amadscientist (talk) 16:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Donut of doom[edit]

I laughed at the award. Love it. Only question: Is it the Donut or Doughnut of doom? Mmmm, juicy doughnuts, ahhh. Bgwhite (talk) 18:06, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

It is already explained on the other donut of doom award :) there are two kinds, the award/complaint one, and the wikilove one.
Down down down on the donut of doom doc you'll see. Penyulap 19:39, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
wait, it's here {{The Donut of DOOM}} section three, btw, please do take a nibble and leave a comment in the human trials section, the statistics are quite important you see. Penyulap 19:42, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Ah, I understand it completely. You give the "Donut" of Doom as an award of a complaint or a complaint of an award to a Brit who is so lazy that they can't type two extra letters. Makes perfect sense. I'll conduct the human trials on my wife. Hopefully the results are fatal with my joy and happiness completely restored. It would be interesting to trials with Pesky's snake. Do you have more info on the 2012 Humor eradication drive? Bgwhite (talk) 20:26, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes, due to it's cabal nature, you are welcome to liaise through me, is there a page you have in mind ? There is only a small mention of it on the talkpage of WP:STAR hinting at membership.
The talkpage for the DoD is getting off to a nice start, I suggest what is required at this point is for someone to put up a ENG:VAR template, that could only be a good idea I'm sure. Penyulap 20:32, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Deviant Art[edit]

Just wondering if you're familiar with I've been collecting works off of it for years. Here's the animations search: gifs. INeverCry 01:27, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I had commented out this part on the talkpage until it archived
Please don't copy anything from Deviant Art to Wikipedia or Wikimedia Commons that is copyright of the artist that created it. Always ask permission with use of all works on the site. These are FULLY protected works generally and not Creative Commons. Violation of copyright on wikipedia could get you blocked from editing. Be very careful with Deviant Art works and always check the copyright status of each work.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:22, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Who said anything about copying or uploading? I was just showing him the site so that he could go look at some artwork and maybe get some inspiration. INeverCry 04:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Officer? LOL! No...try someone that doesn't want you giving the wrong impression to an editor about image use...and a Deviant Artist. I actually stopped by to tell Penylup something but decided it wasn't important after I made that reply or post. I am sure you respect the copyright of other artists.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:54, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Officer or babysitter, either way, why don't you mind your own business? INeverCry 05:12, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I apologise if you have become offended. It is common on Wikipedia for editors to make these warnings when they think they may be needed. It was not unreasonably for me to assume you were suggesting or, it may be percieved that your inferrence was that Deviant art was a good place to find animations for use on Wikipedia. There may well be, however the link you left also was to copyright violations that Deviant Art has not removed. It is common on Deviant art to recieve questions and/or warnings for copy protected works uploaded. Also since it is the very nature of collaboration on Wikipedia to work together telling another editor to "mind your own business" is irrelevant. It's all our business. And I would at least hope, if you were not aware of copyright policy on either sites that perhaps this was something to discuss or think about. Sorry Penyulap.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:41, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

You gave a warning before anything wrong was done or suggested. That violates Wikipedia:Assume good faith. You state above directly that you didn't assume good faith, but rather assumed bad faith on my part. INeverCry 06:24, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
I just spent probably 2 hours ? looking over the first two pages that come up. Inspirational, and brilliant in so many ways. Techniques of course, but approaches too, editorialising, political commentary. It's all a brilliant place to become lost finding yourself. So many adaptable ideas for all my work, and it changes the direction of my work too. If I gave examples I'd be here forever though.
Generally I specify my visual searches to wiki when I am working as I can use the stuff faster, I don't know how to do free image searches properly outside the project and it would help if I did. Searches for the pure inspiration are too rare, thank you for the trip ! :) I have come across before, things always come up in searches, and I think at one point I studied the dramaz surrounding wikipe-tan just to be educated on the subject prior to choosing the inevitably best path for the future, (as in wikipe-tan doesn't hide under the refrigerator when you turn on the light and has opposable thumbs. That said, every celebrity has critics, every celebrity, and the only cure is not to be a celeb or not care. A tiny minority on wikipedia took the wrong path there by choosing a creepy crawly whatever it is as a mascot, which is the same as no mascot. The right path is to recognise that if you sit and name people who have been dead for more than 100 years you can sit and do that for the rest of the day (and then return to it tomorrow) but if you try to name critics who have been dead for 100 years it cannot be done, even experts would need no life at all before they could name a dozen. Critics will only have the notoriety that the celebs give them, and wikipe-tan's popularity can only grow. Penyulap 07:46, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Re: human test (doom)[edit]

You was trying to conduct "human test" but you not know is i am a cat! This is picture of me captured with webcam:
NO SCARE AGAIN!!! :P benzband (talk) 17:05, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Preliminary test result, researcher died laughing. Penyulap 17:07, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
I have made a note about it in the documentation, so if you like you can edit/ delete/ resign as you please. Penyulap 17:17, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

"…the people of the United States of America are responsible for poor spelling in general."

LOL, absolutely agreed ;-) benzband (talk) 17:27, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Click on [show] for an abomination
UK and Ireland[2] Canada[3] United States[4][5]
acknowledgement acknowledgement, acknowledgment acknowledgment
aeroplane airplane airplane
ageing, aging aging, ageing aging, ageing
aluminium aluminum aluminum
analyse analyze, analyse analyze
cancelled cancelled canceled
catalogue catalogue catalog, catalogue
centre centre center
colour colour color
defence defence defense
dialogue dialogue dialogue (conversation),
dialog (text)
diarrhoea diarrhea diarrhea
encyclopaedia encyclopaedia, encyclopedia encyclopedia
jail, gaol jail jail
grey grey gray, grey
fulfil fulfill, fulfil fulfill
install, instal install install
instalment instalment, installment installment
judgement, judgment judgment, judgement judgment
kerb curb curb
labour labour labor
licence (n.),
license (v.)
licence (n.),
license (v.)
license (n.) and (v.)
manoeuvre manoeuvre maneuver
organisation, organization organization, organisation organization
practice (n.),
practise (v.)
practice (n.),
practise (v.)
practice (n. and v.)
computer program,
training programme
computer program,
training program(me)
computer program,
training program
routeing, routing routing routing
sceptic skeptic, sceptic skeptic
theatre theatre theater (building),
theatre (stage productions)
travelling travelling traveling, travelling
tyre tire tire
vice (fault)
vice (tool)
vice (fault)
vise (tool)
vice (fault)
vise (tool)
yogurt, yoghurt, yoghourt yogourt, yogurt, yoghurt, yoghourt yogurt, yoghurt
UK and Ireland Canada United States


  1. ^ "NASA main page". 
  2. ^ Chambers 2003; There are two British English spelling standards, with different requirements for -ise and -ize suffixes; see International organizations above.
  3. ^ Barber, Katherine, ed. (2004). Canadian Oxford Dictionary (2nd ed.). Don Mills, Ont: Oxford University Press. p. xiii. ISBN 0-19-541816-6. The main headword represents the most common form in Canadian usage. 
  4. ^ Chambers 1998, p. xx.
  5. ^ Merriam–Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (11th ed.). Springfield, Mass: Merriam-Webster, Inc. 2003. ISBN 0-87779-809-5. 
MJT mice on toast and mice pie.JPG

It may be hidden, but it's not hidden enough ! the ISS has a three year war that will inevitably lead to arbcom over ENG:VAR ! this is just the sort of armaments the soldiers would love to get a hold of. As for myself, I have precisely no idea what my browser spell checker is set for, and if that's not bad enough I have more than one computer (for art) and I think that they are set different. On the other hand, I should take an interest, I see there is the possibility of war breaking out over the spelling of 'diarrhoea'. Penyulap 17:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Didn't know that a bit of spelling could lead to space warfare… guess i'd better conjure up a bomb shelter. benzband (talk) 17:51, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Wow, what a biased article, blah. Penyulap 18:08, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

well how about some nice mice pie ? Mmmmm yummy Penyulap 09:01, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Come on, I'll take you right now, Pesky could deal with the likes of you :) Penyulap
Auntie Pesky is busy right now, she is aiming for the middle of next week
I think I will stop now, I remember what happened last time I went hunting Penyulap 10:59, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Nice… I is hungry:
Yummy! (^____^) benzband (talk) 09:42, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, But....[edit]

I am taking a very long wikibreak for 1-2 years. Please remember the infobox. And finish the work. I've added to be decided to the parameters i don't know. Thank you.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 11:03, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I think you will find it easiest if you stick to one account, if you know what I mean. Penyulap 11:07, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I had an account. I can't login to that now. Remember, I'll be back only on 2013-2014 so please finish the infobox.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 11:12, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Commonwealth Barnstar[edit]

hi there!... the images I wanted to use were


Like the Indian Barnstar of National merit, or any other national merit barnstar...a barnstar for contributions to Commonwealth articles was what I thought.My plan was to replace the Indian flag with the Commonwealth flag.If it fits in nicely....very good.......or if you have any alternate ideas...please go ahead....Face-smile.svg.. StrikeEagle 03:05, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

  • Commonwealth barnstar.png

Done, it's a messy image to begin with I think, however it's a quick fix, I would wonder if a laureate can be combined in place of the medal, it would look 100% better, but the politics I think may not be compatible. Penyulap 09:51, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Good...didn't actually get your point.? StrikeEagle 11:17, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
At full resolution there are messy marks in the indian barnstar, and therefore in the commonwealth barnstar. Laureates are the leafy green things here 3/4 of the way down the page. Penyulap 11:47, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Yeah....the laureate form will look good. StrikeEagle 11:49, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I'll leave the checking of politics to you, or the recipients, I can't see it as much of a problem, as you can say the laurier is a wikipedia thing today anyhow. Penyulap 12:15, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm very very sorry...but me being an Indian..couldn't understand what you said.Excuse me and please repeat.I'm sorry for the inconvenience caused. StrikeEagle 12:27, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes of course, I think that the laurier is used in Europe more than on english wikipedia. I think it is popular on French wikipedia. There may be a connection between France which is not part of the commonwealth and the laurier. I do not know, I have not checked. The award however looks great visually, and I expect anyone would be happy to receive it. If it is a problem and there is no connection between the laurier and the commonwealth, then a connection can be made between wikipedia and the laurier. On wikipedia the laurier is popular as an award, and so it can be combined that way, like an adoption. Penyulap 12:49, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Got it now.....really liked the image...Face-smile.svg.......just wanted to know if there are any chances of making it transparent of that blue colour...any chances? StrikeEagle 12:58, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Lose the blues ? no problem, working now Penyulap 13:27, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
done. Penyulap 13:31, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks a lot...Face-smile.svg....for patiently dealing with me in spite of my poor understanding sometimes.Face-wink.svg StrikeEagle 13:44, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I uploaded a new version in an attempt to smooth out those rough edges. It's smoother but still not great. I'm actually not sure which is better. Anyone can feel free to revert. Equazcion (talk) 13:47, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
yes..the newer version is surely clear than the original...what say Penyulap? StrikeEagle 13:50, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Oh I'm choking on rage and too disgusted to speak. Penyulap 13:55, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Oh ok, I am being sarcastic, Equazicon knows it, but maybe Strike Eagle is like wtf ? gotcha Penyulap 13:58, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Face-grin.svg StrikeEagle 14:02, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Of course... WTF!!!!...I'm confused!... StrikeEagle 14:15, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
the cleanup is a lot better, i am too messy with images when i figure nobody will notice.. Penyulap 14:21, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Graphic Designer Barnstar Hires.png The Graphic Designer's Barnstar
For the Commonwealth Barnstar(Award)...thanks a lot man!...Face-smile.svg StrikeEagle 13:01, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you !! Penyulap 13:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Penyulap. You have new messages at Brendon111's talk page.
Message added 13:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

see if it works now...  Brendon ishere 13:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Check ur email![edit]

Hello, Penyulap. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

StrikeEagle 13:55, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


Did you mean to say the IP's logic was your own logic? Or the sockmaster's logic? (Caution: I seem to be denser than usual today.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:23, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

my logic often leads to strange conclusions, such as reporting myself to ANI, so an unusual statement like that editors is somewhat like something I would say. Penyulap 20:28, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
OK, I see. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:42, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Consider initial RfA to later become an admin[edit]

It seems you have a lot of energy to help decide matters, such as ANI reports and blocks of troublesome users. You might work well as a new admin. Perhaps this is a good time for you to submit an initial WP:RfA, to get direct feedback on where to concentrate, on the road to becoming a future admin. As I understand the environment, it is important to avoid future blocks, as each block will be hyped into "hideous, incorrigible behaviour" which would be cited, by many, as reasons to deny your adminship. However, with the feedback from other editors, you might gain adminship, later this year, and could work to improve the processes to investigate and judge the "WP:Gaming of the system" which many admins cannot catch during ANI-incident discussions. Things to ponder. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:33, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

you may ask Auntie Pesky for my response, she can speak with my voice on the matter. Thanks. Penyulap 00:41, 21 May 2012 (UTC)


The Donut of DOOM
Donut of DOOM.jpg
You have been presented with The Donut of DOOM
Please take a nibble and tell us what you think

--Now, don't give it to me..please. Okay?  Brendon ishere 13:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you ! (sorry I stepped out for a moment) Penyulap 13:29, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

hmph, it loads and works, and maybe it killed a bunch of cats or whatever, and ok, I agree it's not bento, but I can't see what all the fuss was about, it suits the purpose. Penyulap 13:43, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
You really like bento, don't you? Face-grin.svg  Brendon ishere 00:31, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Lolz, well, visually the sushi on wiki looks a good deal better than the bento on wiki, so I don't mind sushi, in RL, bento is the serious snack because it is often intended to be very visual. If I make an ice-cream for friends, I go all out in the toppings, bowl (usually a sundae glass) a wafer, choc stick, taste certainly extends a long way into presentation. These things are very seriously important and effect the taste. I visited a western style restaurant with a softserve icecream machine a few times, and make proper ice cream serves, (conical in shape, 20cm high at least, geometrically decorated with whatever is available, or shaded with sprinkles across its sides. If strangers are nodding or clapping as I walk back to my table then I've done a good job. (it's happened more than once) :)
Also, there is always the option to do the abominable and cook the sushi, I'm just the heretic to do it too. Penyulap 00:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Wow...SCongratulate.svg congratulations for your obsession with food and cooking!!!! Face-wink.svg...I like eating too..(Lazy isn't it?) SSceptical.gif I wish I had a friend like you in real life.  Brendon ishere 14:45, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Well, on one hand it's worth it for the ice cream creations, but on the other hand there are a few who would be embarrassed for no particular reason to be seen with such a flamboyant ice cream sculptor, but meh, they get used to it. No guts, No glory. Penyulap 14:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Please fill out our brief Teahouse survey[edit]

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Can anyone see a problem with this ? some docs need an update[edit]

If you would like to unblock someone where you see an error has occurred, you'd naturally start with WP:unblock, which says nothing about 3rd parties, and following the link to Wikipedia:Appealing a block you get instructions, nothing on a 3rd party, and that leads to the Wikipedia:Guide to appealing blocks, hmm, yeah, well nothing there either. So I popped an unblock template onto someones page, which is apparently not the way to do it, because as it has been pointed out, it goes on your own page. So, hey, enjoy !! Penyulap 22:42, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

oh yeah, the discussion was here


Greetings Penyulap. I noticed your question and comments here and wanted to offer some insight. It is possible to request the removal of another user's block, I've done it with positive results. It is not a function of the template and nothing in the /doc requires amending. The best manner is to send your comments and request directly to the blocking administrator through their talk page. There's hardly an administrator in the corps who wouldn't consider a reasonable request, and if errors are shown, be as interested, if not more, to effect a remedy. I am aware however that saying a block is erroneous is not synonymous with an error in fact. Many times the error is assuming there is an error, but the best way to improve understanding is through discussion. I hope this helps a bit. My76Strat (talk) 01:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Well, I'm thinking that it is a brilliant idea that somewhere in the whole unblock guides/docs/policies which I went through, we put a section or at least a footnote, on how to do a 3rd party request. Also, given the dismissive attitudes towards the requests, which is fairly typical, some guidance on what to do next. Whilst I appreciate the assistance, I appreciate additions to the documentation by the same mathematical factor as the number of editors it will assist in the future.
I disagree with the /doc not requiring amending, it does, as a see also, or disambig or something. Penyulap 02:04, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
I didn't mean to imply your idea had no merit. Frankly it does, and I wouldn't be surprised to see this information appended. I guess I was focusing on what the information would likely say, opposed to its omission. Cheers. My76Strat (talk) 02:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Well, as far as I can see, it's contact the admin who did it, then take it to AN with a title 'block review request' that's what I learnt today in school mom/dad. Penyulap 03:33, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Record Production[edit]

it looks like a good project, but visually it kind of completely sucks :) some things spring to mind straight away, like anime, do you want like, a record player that goes round and round ? or like, a stereo with a L.E.D. bargraph that goes in time with (silent) music ? Penyulap 03:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Any manner of assistance is in great demand. Perhaps you can critique the Portal as well. Better yet, join the project; and help improve it. That would be well appreciated. My76Strat (talk) 03:58, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Hey that sounds great the portal has flashing text, so that's brilliant as I often get objections based upon 'too flashy', so this looks very promising indeed. Penyulap 04:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Indeed I look forward with optimism. Please be bold with your ideas to improve the entire presentation. The Portal and WikiProject are tandem goals and neither is a finished product by any measure. Some of the missing elements result in my considerably novice understanding of programing in general. So tell me, how can we make these pages not suck? My76Strat (talk) 04:36, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
argh! It'll take more than my skills to do all that, for code, I can't possibly tell you who to bother, I know only two really good coders, and I like to save their help for myself :) but the easy way is to steal code from other pages, find the bits you like and modify it for yourself, trial and error, it works, and you don't need to know in depth why that is.. Penyulap 04:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

Thank you so much for the new friend. I've moved him to my user page because being of such a sensitive nature, I'm sure he'll find the air better for his emotional health, there.( Ill have to move him around later on so he has a better view.olive (talk) 22:05, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

You're most welcome. I know it is in very good hands :) Penyulap 22:17, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


(talk page stalker) Actually, he hiccuped for 45 years. I rarely miss a Simpsons reference when I see it, especially one from the first 10-15 seasons. :> Doc talk 11:32, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, is that where it came from ? wow, it is pervasive. Penyulap 11:38, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome! It's one of the best comedies of all time, due to the quality of the writing. This guy was particularly brilliant. Starting at season 4 is where it really became an undeniably classic show IMHO, right from the season opener. Now we're looking at a 24th season... amazing. Cheers :> Doc talk 11:53, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Quality ? it was started as an accident almost, or a doodle just the same. I should hope some of my doodles do so well someday :) Penyulap 11:56, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

That guy has been blocked.[edit]

I saw your comment here @00:10, 25 May (UTC).

I reverted his changes and reported him on or before 23:55, May 24 (UTC) and he was already blocked by the time you last commented about him in the ANI at 00:12, May 25, 2012 (UTC).

Hence, as you wished, your notice at the ANI has been wiped. Just thought you should know, Smiley green alien dreamy love.svg  Brendon is here 05:48, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

SYawning.svg(yawn) OK I'm a bit slow today. Face-sleep.svg Penyulap 06:36, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Google translate[edit]

Google translate 'helpfully' translated km into miles for me (the word not the actual number). Secretlondon (talk) 23:23, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

No freaking way. (can't stop laughing to type) Penyulap 23:26, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm over it now. Penyulap 23:37, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Mausoleum at Halicarnassus[edit]

I had to revert that to a pre-vandalism version; feel free to reinstate your change. 28bytes (talk) 02:07, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know, I have implemented the change. Penyulap 02:27, 26 May 2012 (UTC)


I hereby invite you to review this essay that I wrote about welcoming new users (and any other essay of mine). Comment on it or add something if you will.  Brendon is here 09:06, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

I had a quick scan, and will have a careful read a little later as I want to give it my full attention before making a comment. Penyulap 15:34, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Happy Birthday to palz......[edit]

Hi Penyulap! PALZ9000 is almost 3 months old. I've wished to give him a few presents.

Auto Racing Green Digiflag.gifThis is Bot PALZ9000
Bot-100This user's bot has made more than 100 edits in Wikipedia.

Hope he(and you) like it!Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 09:50, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, RTV sent me the tape of his hamsters launch, you could give him this userbox if you like.
I'd give it to him myself, but I worry he thinks I will unplug him anytime I come near him after the pesky express drafting incident.
This user is concerned for the welfare of Palz hamster.


for some reason passing the ubx custom text doesn't work, I hope a stalker can help there, or with categories for my userboxes, or anything else, I'm always glad for techno-stalker assistance. For the time being it can be placed as-is on his userpage. Penyulap 17:18, 26 May 2012 (UTC)


Not wishing to do so now on my own talk page, I thought it might be valid on yours :) Fiddle Faddle (talk) 23:00, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Can I help?[edit]

I see something has frustrated you, can I help you in any way? My76Strat (talk) 23:59, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, no, the project has to epically fail, slowly, before a viable alternative appears, that will take years. In the meantime, the cream of the crap shall compound itself as the good people leave, and nobody cares to care. Asking why they are leaving has no effect upon effecting a solution. Penyulap 00:08, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
I can't rebut anything you have said; only remind you that good people leaving compounds the problem; and ask that you not leave the project because of someone else. My76Strat (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
One need to remember that the wisdom of crowds produces lowest common denominator results and that wikipedia is an amusing social experiment. Nothing in this experiment should be taken seriously except one's own part in it. At least it's a safer social experiment than allowing morons to drive cars or vote in elections :) Fiddle Faddle (talk) 06:47, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Moves have been underway for some time to ensure every idiot in America has the right to vote in the counties election. The article requires updating.
Wiki documentation requires clarification that it reflects United States law. It is policy that every 6 foot turn with eyes and a keyboard watches for changes and zombie masses of such editors follow anything attractive to click revert and halt work with demands you educate them in a field they have no fucking hope of ever grasping. It just takes one or two zombie turds to demand the Sistine Chapel is sandboxed on the pavement in chalk so that after the exhaustive work is complete they don't see the problem with the existing ceiling which keeps out the rain and has done so for years. In the wheelhouse of the Titanic just one or two zombie turds stop anyone applying a little trim to the wheel because it is perfectly clear there are no icebergs in the wheelhouse, and the ice is in the drinks so ask a waiter, ask anyone, ice is a good thing and doesn't pose any threat, have some. Has a zombie turd managed to get a badge and blasted an innocent person into indef ? well the mistreated person has to apologise to the turd first and prove to the community they won't be abused by turds ever again. (not my case, pick any case) It's a social taboo to protect the abused, don't take the badge from the zombie, it's so much better to let them indef after indef after indef and lose that string of troublemaking(sarcasm) editors and keep the turd with the badge. Penyulap 17:13, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
I do see what you mean regarding the abused. But I always did, here. What looks at first to be a charming and sweet place is a microcosm of delegated dictatorship. One plays here for fun, never for anything serious. One may and shoudl appear to be serious, but it is merely a place to practice life skills required in office politics survival games :) Fiddle Faddle (talk) 21:12, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

XfD Topic Ban for User:TenPoundHammer (Again)[edit]

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "XfD Topic Ban for User:TenPoundHammer (Again)". Thank you. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:51, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll let him know. Penyulap 21:14, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

XfD Topic Ban for User:Andy Dingley[edit]

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you opened. The thread is "XfD Topic XfD Topic Ban for User:Andy Dingley". Thank you. Penyulap 21:16, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I care[edit]

Rich Farmbrough, 16:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC).

Didn't get the link to mother teresa[edit]

(she was a bit of a cunt in all honesty, see hitchens) Egg Centric 16:02, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I vote you should be put in charge of judging community consensus on wikipedia, you have that wikipedia knack for it. Penyulap 19:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Me too. Egg Centric 19:30, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Then again 6 months from now I might not feel as destructive as I do now. Meh, these things come and go. Sometimes my contribs are straight green, sometimes wham !!! contributions need more colours. Penyulap 21:33, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Have you considered potent halluciongenics? Egg Centric 21:36, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
No need at all, God gave me for free what other people pay thousands of dollars for. Penyulap 23:51, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


Hi Penyulap - I ran across your Innocent prisoner's dilemma article (which I very much enjoyed), and noticed the "linkrot" tag at the top - so I ran that "reflinks" fix tool to change the bare URLs to templated data for the references section. If you're not happy with the results - feel free to revert my edits and I'll not be upset at all. Best of luck Chedzilla (talk) 16:27, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikiproject banner for My76Strat[edit]

Wikiproject record production med res.jpg

I can change the embedded text easily enough, and crop the image top and or bottom. I would guess you can easily edit the links, I think that red carpet could be members rather than articles, or not, there is also hall of fame, but neither are good for articles, they both suggest people. I guess you can go with an industry award name ? or make one up :) Penyulap 07:44, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I definitely like the concept! Feel free to incorporate your ideas to the fullest extent. Link pages as you see fit and if pages require creation, create them in good faith. Thank you for assisting the project. It would be great if you would sign on as a member. My76Strat (talk) 07:23, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
at the moment there are too many layers and 'over simplification' of page code has had the opposite effect, making editing difficult even impossible. Generally code like that is better off in places you don't want help, rather than places you might, or wikiprojects, which don't attract vandalism. Penyulap 17:51, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
That is a fair observation. It has crossed my mind as well. Sunday evening is the period when I change the featured content and DYK snippets. This evening I'll begin substituting the content opposed to transcluding it. Thanks - My76Strat (talk) 22:37, 26 May 2012 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Penyulap. You have new messages at WilliamH's talk page.
Message added 21:55, 31 May 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

WilliamH (talk) 21:55, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Good one[edit]

[6] I LOL'd :) Equazcion (talk) 13:56, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)


would you mind if we userfy this template? it seems to depend on stuff in your userspace. Frietjes (talk) 20:59, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

please just go ahead and delete it, there were a few assorted bits and pieces created whilst developing PALZ higher functions :) ...palz does not yet propagate and translate and that is still quite a while off, that particular template is not useful anymore and contains nothing useful. Penyulap 22:13, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Innocent Prisoner's Dilemma[edit]

Got one - User talk:Dennis Brown#Youreallycan Face-grin.svg Egg Centric 23:37, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I came across that case when I was researching the article topic and dismissed it as a poor example. Naturally I don't care what anyone adds to the article. Penyulap 23:52, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)

User page[edit]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but your edit to your userpage was fine, and that other guy was wrong to revert it. People post "fuck wikipedia" on their userpages every day. There's no rule against it. Equazcion (talk) 05:32, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)

I know, but meh. I can't say as I care really, I'd rather see what other people can come up with, I'm curious. :) Penyulap 05:34, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)
I liked your creative user page! This project has severe flaws because it is run by us humans, let's do what we can ;) (We don't need more victims of WP:Great Dismal Swamp.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:22, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
thank you. Penyulap 07:59, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Well ,what is admin or crat and problem?[edit]

Seems like you wrote some fuck wp at your userpage. What is the problem?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 05:43, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

The problem is I can do a really good Indian accent, but Wikipedia has no live audio feeds. Bummer. Penyulap 05:48, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Live audio?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 05:49, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

PALZ9000 has been recognized by the NR01[edit]

My Doppelganger(Mir Almaat1 S2) has recognized PALZ9000 has the Head bot of ISSIB template.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 08:14, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Nomination of Innocent prisoner's dilemma for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Innocent prisoner's dilemma is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Innocent prisoner's dilemma until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:49, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

cool ! Penyulap 13:50, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)
the discussion has given me a little insight into people's recognition of the concept. Penyulap 20:19, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Good one[edit]

[7] I LOL'd :) Equazcion (talk) 13:56, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)


would you mind if we userfy this template? it seems to depend on stuff in your userspace. Frietjes (talk) 20:59, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

please just go ahead and delete it, there were a few assorted bits and pieces created whilst developing PALZ higher functions :) ...palz does not yet propagate and translate and that is still quite a while off, that particular template is not useful anymore and contains nothing useful. Penyulap 22:13, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)
great. could you put a {{db-author}} on launchheader as well? thank you. Frietjes (talk) 18:39, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Innocent Prisoner's Dilemma[edit]

Got one - User talk:Dennis Brown#Youreallycan Face-grin.svg Egg Centric 23:37, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I came across that case when I was researching the article topic and dismissed it as a poor example. Naturally I don't care what anyone adds to the article. Penyulap 23:52, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)

User page[edit]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but your edit to your userpage was fine, and that other guy was wrong to revert it. People post "fuck wikipedia" on their userpages every day. There's no rule against it. Equazcion (talk) 05:32, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)

I know, but meh. I can't say as I care really, I'd rather see what other people can come up with, I'm curious. :) Penyulap 05:34, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)
I liked your creative user page! This project has severe flaws because it is run by us humans, let's do what we can ;) (We don't need more victims of WP:Great Dismal Swamp.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:22, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
thank you. Penyulap 07:59, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Well ,what is admin or crat and problem?[edit]

Seems like you wrote some fuck wp at your userpage. What is the problem?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 05:43, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

The problem is I can do a really good Indian accent, but Wikipedia has no live audio feeds. Bummer. Penyulap 05:48, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Live audio?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 05:49, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

PALZ9000 has been recognized by the NR01[edit]

My Doppelganger(Mir Almaat1 S2) has recognized PALZ9000 has the Head bot of ISSIB template.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 08:14, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

I really need to reduce my watchlist[edit]

You have my most profound apologies for not having noticed your additional comments on the Wikipe-tan image. A baptism image might be very good, indeed. Also, FWIW, I do hope that, maybe in time, we might have some of the other religion projects adopt some sort of image of her. Although it is a bit of a stereotype, we might have her lifting the headcovering from a burka for an image for the Islam project, for instance. And I have always loved the colors of saris, and actually like any pictures of women in them. (I could make some sort of off-color comment in very dubious taste here regarding, for instance, livestock of some sort in saris, and am actually sorely tempted to, but will try to restrain myself.) I think we may start voting when this month's newsletter gets sent out, which I hope is tomorrow, but do think that there would probably be time to develop a "baptism" image if you wanted to. Having said that, my own comment was more about the bikini than the baptism in the image suggested by someone else. Thanks again for your efforts. John Carter (talk) 19:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

I do not understand the reference to 'lifting'. don't worry too much about being busy, everyone overlooks things. There wouldn't be time to develop a baptism image, there is a lot of work I am doing, which in itself doesn't stop it, what does slow down or speed up things is which tools I am concentrating on, and which tools I have mastered. The tools the original artist used for wikipetan are still out of my grasp, I can use them, but the interface is counter-intuitive which makes it like chewing glass, it can be done, but I'd rather just spit it out and use something tastier, I prefer to use tools that are intuitive so I can short circuit the learning process entirely, which is more productive. At the moment there are no SVG tools which I have mastered, and none I can use to cheat with, and the original one is, as I said, a pain. Penyulap 20:18, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)


Interestingly File:Knowledge_English_EU_map.png includes Turkey (turns out "candidate countries" are included. Even more interestingly the svg version includes Iceland and not Turkey! Maybe encourage you to crack that SVG barrier... Rich Farmbrough, 17:04, 3 June 2012 (UTC).

Using that software was really really not so much draining, what is the word I look for, there is no word for it. (I thought and there is no word) I can hear Auntie trying to grasp to explain it as well. It's not so much frustration and disgust, they are simple and don't rise so fast and are not the same thing. The problem with that software is that when I skip over the learning process by cheating, it doesn't work because it is poorly designed, pervasively badly designed, like Windows on speed. When I shortcut normally and skip over things, I'll be like thinking what I want to do, and then compute what it would be called / look like / where it is located, and then I go to that place and find it and use it. But for SVG it is as natural as resting your shoulder on the seat of a bicycle with your feet up in the air and using your arms to pedal whilst watching where you are going through a mirror. Takes some getting used to. Too much. Too much for me, I just talk someone else into giving me a lift in a car or something. So it's like returning to the bicycle and doing a headstand where it's the shoulder on the seat, get the mirror ready and then away you go. Penyulap 20:50, 3 Jun 2012 (UTC)



I think that you should remove in the user box the text : {{{{NAMESPACE}}:{{BASEPAGENAME}}/dmana}}

It should make disappeared the documentation and the userboxes about trains which are not necessary in this userbox. I did not dare to do that myself.

On your userpage, you should add some userboxes to present yourself. Like that :

What I am
PenWood.gifThis user is a Carpenter.
PenWood.gifThis user is a Carpenter.
PenWood.gifThis user is a Carpenter.

There are more complex syntaxes. I use some of them. You can look at my user page. --Tangopaso (talk) 17:50, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

It is a good idea, please go ahead and do it. I do not have the heart to do it, but it should be done. Penyulap 20:14, 3 Jun 2012 (UTC)