Please have a seat, take a fruit or what you like, and after some repose tell me something, whatever comes into your mind...
The uncited quotation on your user page reminds me of Tristram Shandy, Ch. XII: "Trust me, dear Yorick … for every ten jokes, — thou hast got an hundred enemies…." Lestrade (talk) 14:20, 15 April 2010 (UTC)Lestrade
- As far as I can see, you know your chicken... Your memory is much better than mine :) Platonykiss (talk) 15:21, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
And please do not forget this allusion: "Yorick, however, fought it out with all imaginable gallantry for some time [...] — he threw down the sword; and though he kept up his spirits in appearance to the last, he died, nevertheless, as was generally thought, quite broken-hearted." Platonykiss (talk) 00:09, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Hey Platonykiss. With the See also section, I removed all links that were a) red, b) linked to another site, or c) already linked in the article (WP:SEEALSO). I think the section about the Papadic Octoechos is probably the most difficult to follow at this point, if you'd like to work on that. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:45, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Byzantine and Georgian music
What do you think of the following: "Greek and foreign historians agree that the ecclesiastical tones and in general the whole system of Byzantine music is closely related to the ancient Greek system"?
It is found in the lead of Byzantine music and it's been there since November 10 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Byzantine_music&direction=next&oldid=170566496).
As far as I know this is nonsense, but I thought I'd check with you. So what do you think? Thanks for any insight.
Thanks for all your help at my talk page. I hope you continue to enrich WP with material about the music of the Eastern Churches. WP sorely needs it. For example there's almost zero material on the music of the Georgian Orthodox Church. BTW, I don't now if you've noticed but your articles on the Oktoechos do not mention the Georgian church as one which uses the Oktoechos: "eight-mode system used for the composition of religious chant in Byzantine, Syrian, Coptic, Armenian, Latin and Slavic churches since the Middle Ages" (excerpted from the lead of your articles). See? No mention of the Georgian church? But maybe that list was not meant to be comprehensive? Contact Basemetal here 00:11, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
- Not really. I doubt that Romanians and many others will feel really represented by it (despite they had a Greek influence in the South and a Slavic in the North), but since Frøyshov's essay about Iadgari is there, the Georgian evidence has definitely been mentioned. Nevertheless, I followed your suggestion.
- In general Georgian music is definitely worth to have an own article, have you tried this one?—Platonykiss (talk) 21:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
- Yes I have, but as far as religious music I only found the first paragraph in this section. Georgian Church music should have its own article but you are so busy on so many fronts (for example I saw you contributed a huge amount of material to Saint Martial school also, besides the articles on the Oktoechos) that one wonders when you would have the time to treat the Georgian topic on top of everything else you're already doing. Besides are the sources on Georgian church music so easily accessible? Some years ago I took a look at a New Grove article regarding Georgian Church music and almost all the references were either in Russian or Georgian. Do you read Russian or Georgian? But maybe that situation has changed. Another thing that would be useful is a review of the discography for the eastern Churches. As you may have noticed there's a lot of offerings e.g. on YouTube but one does not know how scholarly informed those offerings are. I'm sure WP readers would be interested not only to read about these matters but also to hear what those works sound like, and so an assessment of the scientific value of the interpretations would be useful. Sometimes they're very beautiful, e.g. this recording of the Georgian Easter Troparion by Nana Peradze. But what is it worth from the liturgical point of view? Does the Georgian church really allow the use of mixed choirs in the liturgy? I don't know of course but I'm sceptical. Contact Basemetal here 21:45, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
- There are so many users here, some of them definitely more competent in the field Georgian church music, that it makes no sense to wait for me to write all the articles relevant to Orthodox church music. I leave it to you, whether you prefer to open there a section about church music or to write a separate article. If I take some time to write here for you, it is to encourage you to contribute and to recommend some articles for your preparation.
- I'll try. But I have to become more proficient with this intricate topic before I can reliably contribute. I still have lots to learn. I will be very thankful for your bibliographic help: so what articles do you recommend? Would you consider Frøyshov's article as part of a bibliography of the music of the Georgian church? Contact Basemetal here 19:07, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Why not? It is one of the most recent publications concerning the Iadgari together with the Bulgarian book about the papyrus sources of octoechos which Svetlana Kujumdzieva published last year. There is also a recently founded International Research Center for Traditional Polyphony at Tiflis, which became very engaged also for topics concerning liturgical music of Georgia:
- especially "Sacred polyphony": http://polyphony.ge/index.php?m=566 —Platonykiss (talk) 10:10, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
- On another topic, would you happen to know how Henry Julius Wetenhall Tillyard (1881-1968) (who, though he probably should, does not have his own article yet, as you can tell from the beautiful bright red color of his link) would be related to the Shakespeare scholar Eustace Mandeville Wetenhall Tillyard (1889-1962)? Contact Basemetal here 19:07, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- H.J.W. Tillyard is definitely worth an article, but I rather do not say that this has the first priority, since the few articles about Greek protopsaltes are very poor (including Chrysanthos and Petros Peloponnesios), there is still no article about Gregorios the Protopsaltes, Chourmouzios the Archivist, Iakovos Peloponnesios/the Protopsaltes and Konstantinos the Protopsaltes/Byzantios (no articles about most of the great teachers of the other national schools, nor articles about the Athonite schools), and the same is true for many other musicians of the Byzantine and the Ottoman Empire. There is no article about all the different forms of Byzantine and Orthodox Music Notation (please have a look in my sandbox). It is hard to say, where to start. But you just do the topics, where you need anyway a preparation, so others can profit of an article with an updated bibliography (please use the templates, so that other users can easily grasp them with bibliography plugins). —Platonykiss (talk) 10:10, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
- I just wrote in the octoechos article about Georgian sources, because they are the oldest layer. For linguists (and this is far from my limited knowledge), it is evident that these early sources are rather less refined translations of the Greek texts comparable to early Latin translations of the canticles. Nevertheless, the Iadgari is the most complete chant book which has survived as papyrus.
- Concerning the living tradition of Georgian chant, there is no strict separation, since male ensembles like "Rustavi" and "Georgika" (the preceding generation) used secular, paraliturgical and liturgical songs in their programs, just because they have a very unique form of polyphony which is in this context rather regarded as a national heritage than as part of a church ceremony. This is possible, because some male voices are supposed to sing in a very high register within this tradition. But I see no reason to regard a mixed choir as less authentic. The same is true for the monodic tradition which has been always performed by nuns as well (usually it is not mixed, except during those rare occasions when a female and male community meet together for certain processions). In the context of Byzantine court music the higher register might have been reserved for Eunochs, but honestly, we knew very few names like Philanthropinos the Eunoch Protopsaltes, and not much more than just this name, not even any precise date of his lifetime.
- Concerning youtube, I just quoted examples with traditional singers. The rights belong usually to Manolis Hatzegiakoumis, the editor of the Mnemeia and Symmeikta series. For a long time, you could buy these precious editions only in book shops of the Greek Orthodox church, but they are obviously very tolerant with the copyright in order to let spread the knowledge about the tradition of Athos and Istanbul in the whole world (meanwhile you can also order it online with discount conditions). But I know even very small communities in the whole world, whose ceremonies have been filmed by locals. Some material is very precious, but you have to know it and you should be aware, that youtube links usually vanish soon. —Platonykiss (talk) 10:57, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for your orthographical support. I agree with all, but concerning trochos, researchers usually agree on this form τροχὸς (also in the index), but there are different ways depending on the manuscript. Concerning sticheron I agree with your decision to use the modern orthography.—Platonykiss (talk) 00:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Feedback needed on using special characters
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Greek translation of the octoechos articles
Mais je parle au moins le Français... Vous preférez cette langue?
I will make an effort to help you about melos (pl. mele) which itself is not a plural form:
- τὸ μέλος or τὸ μέλισμα (pl. τὰ μέλη or τὰ μελίσματα): a harmony "view" of an echo (from ancient Greek horizontal harmony/music)
- [a meaning] τοῦ μέλους (pl. [a meaning] τῶν μελῶν): [a meaning] belonging to the melos
- ἡ μελωδία (pl. αἱ μελωδίαι): the melody (from melos/μέλος and ὠδὴ/ode) an ode with one or more mele (melody itself can be a plural form)
- ὀ μελωδικὸς, ἡ μελωδικὴ, τὸ μελωδικὸ (pl. οἰ μελωδικοὶ, αἱ μελωδικαἱ, τὰ μελωδικὰ): those belonging to the melody
- ἡ μελοποιία (pl. αἱ μελοποιίαι): the process to build a melos (from melos/μέλος and build/ποιῶ)
- ἡ μελοποίηση (pl. αἱ μελοποιήσεις): the product of a μελοποιία process (from melos/μέλος and poetry/ποίηση)
- 1) τὸ μέλος
- Μεθοδική διδασκαλία: Methodical teaching
- θεωρητική τε και πρακτική: theoretical (teaching) and practice (of this teaching)
- προς εκμάθησιν και διάδοσιν του γνησίου εξωτερικού μέλους: for learning and dissemination of the genuine exoteric melos
- της καθ' ημάς Ελληνικής Μουσικής κατ' αντιπαράθεσιν προς την Αραβοπερσικήν: of our (view of) Greek Music in juxtaposition with (the view of) Arab-Persian one
- συναρμολογηθείσα υπό του Μουσ[ικού] Π. Γ. Κηλτζανίδου Προυσσαέως: assembled by the musician P. G. Kiltzanides of Proussa
- 2) ἡ ᾀσματική ἀκολουθία
- ὀ ᾀσματικὸς, ἡ ᾀσματικὴ, τὸ ᾀσματικὸ (pl. οἰ ᾀσματικοὶ, αἱ ᾀσματικαἱ, τὰ ᾀσματικὰ): those belonging to the ᾄσματα/songs/chants
- ἡ ἀκολουθία (pl. αἱ ἀκολουθίαι): usually translated into service but really means a sequence (but also a sequence/αλληλουχία → alleluia)
- ἡ ᾀσματική ἀκολουθία (pl. αἱ ᾀσματικαἱ ἀκολουθίαι): a sequence (comprised) of (some) chants
- 3) τοῦ μέλους
- The phrase "τὰ εἴδη τοῦ μέλου" is also wrong. The right is "τὰ εἴδη τοῦ μέλους" and means: the species of (every) melos. In Greek language the genitive can be used with "a hidden every" only in single form (never in plural one).
- --Francois-Pier (talk) 17:18, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
- A very nice Interpretation! Of course, the kinship between makam büzürk and rast, this is a Phanariot's point of view or with Keltzanides' words της καθ' ημάς Ελληνικής Μουσικής κατ' αντιπαράθεσιν προς την Αραβοπερσικήν. Platonykiss (talk) 09:16, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
If you ask a translation (because I don't exactly understand you) then:
- αἱ μέθοδοι (plural = methods) τῶν θέσεων (plural = of theseis/positions) τοῦ μέλους (not plural = of melos) --Francois-Pier (talk) 09:55, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
I translate these articles because I requested by some of my friends, for that, I also get advices about some terminologies. I am a connoisseur of the Latin notation and theory, as mathematician found enough help in Greek and Byzantine one. I am trying to learn all these, to help one of my friends (student of Ioannis Arvanitis) in his research in Neobyzantine. Regarding the mathematical aspect of ancient Greek theory in Byzantine music, by my side. I have a different view on some of the writings, but I made these translations without my interventions.
Yes, pathos is neutral:
- τὸ πάθος/pathos (pl. τὰ πάθη/pathe): like μέλος-μέλη/melos-mele, or γένος-γένη/genos-gene
- ὀ ἦχος/echos (pl. οἰ ἦχοι/echoi): like μέσος-μέσοι/mesos-mesoi, or πλάγιος-πλάγιοι/plagios-plagioi
So, I turned "oi pathoi" to "ta pathe". Also, the "destroyer" is "καταστροφέας" and "corruption" is "διαφθορὰ" (as depravity), but "corruption" also used as "φθορὰ", better are "spoilage" and "spoiling". I think "spoil" is the right keyword for the use of "φθορὰ" in music, but really I don't know the right terminology in English language. It's up to you by now... --Francois-Pier (talk) 05:57, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- I have also some advices for the Greek translation of Greek terms which are sometimes a little bit too translated (the Byzantine term for alleluia verse is ἀλληλουϊάριον, the responsorium gradual is προκείμενον), but I will do these suggestions as soon as you are through, in order not to distract you in your work.
- I realised that you are very fit in Latin neumes and I appreciate a certain emphasize in your choice of pictures, like this it is a real dialogue on Greek wikipedia.
- Hence, whenever you have a question or a critical remark, please have a seat here, if you like. I always appreciate different or contrary opinions and I am quite aware of all the controversial issues which we are touching here. I have also Greek friends who seem to have deep roots in Turkey or to other countries of the Eastern Mediterranean (one is even Orthodox and a dervish at the same time), and a few Turkish friends. There is no doubt that Greeks played a very active role in the Ottoman past and in the Orient, but this history is very complex and full of traumata. It takes a long time to discover those hidden treasures hunted by their memory. Platonykiss (talk) 22:19, 2 April 2014 (UTC)