User talk:Potapt

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Khwao[edit]

Hello Potapt,

thanks for your fixes here, don't know how that outdated number of Khwaeng could survive so long. However, for Khwao Sinarin I think you are mistakes - according to the list of recommended english spellings [1] it should be Sinarin, not Sinrin. Or does it have a newer version of that document I am not aware of? andy (talk) 21:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


Hello Andy. I find the name เขวาสินรินทร์ in the 2003 edition of How to Pronounce and Spell [Thai words] by the Royal Institute. This booklet has specified that its pronunciation should only be เขฺวา-สิน-ริน, romanized as Khwao Sinrin. Also the 2007 transcriptions of Thai political divisions by the Department of Provincial Administration suggests the spelling Khwao Sinrin for the name of both amphoe and tambon. As these two books are more recently released than that list, I think the name might have been corrected without official announcement by now. But your comment may be correct; just now I found in Google the wide use of Sinarin. -- Potapt (talk) 12:50, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
That first resource I did not know about before. But I just checked with the recommended Tambon spellings as I know them from DOPA - I think you also refer to this document (ISBN 978-974-7857-04-7) - and you're right that it spells it Sinrin there. That document however has several mistakes or at least inconsistencies (I spotted 133), but sadly I got absolutely no reaction when I sent my list of mistakes there, I mentioned it on my blog long time ago. And even DOPA isn't consistent with the spelling, another list of spellings has it with Sinarin again. The wide-spread use of Sinarin on the web may also be the fault of Wikipedia, as many others simply copy from here. So at least we should list the two possible spellings in the article before we can confirm what is the "correct" spelling. I doubt there was (or will) any official announcement on changing the romanized spellings, at least in the past spellings of districts or subdistricts changed without being announced in the Royal Gazette. andy (talk) 09:07, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't think I have seen it before. Maybe it is not important enough to do that because a newer version of announcement will be released someday.-- Potapt (talk) 13:05, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

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IPA of Amphoe[edit]

Thanks for adding the IPA for the Amphoe articles. Do you have a source from where you copy them, or do you create them by yourself? Google does not find anything, so it might be a book you use. The reason I ask is because I add the spelling into my XML files [2], and then using my bot to add them to Wikidata. It would be nice to have a reference added in Wikidata, as well as being able to fill my XML without waiting for you to modify the articles here - and even better to have the Tambon as well.

Another vaguely related one you edited recently - Chai Sathan is the name of two Tambon, however strangely this is one of the cases where the book ชื่อจังหวัด อำเภอ/กิ่งอำเภอ ตำบล เขต และแขวง ไทย-อังกฤษ (Thai-English transcription of changwat, amphoe, king amphoe, tambon, khet, and khwang approved by the Royal Institute, ISBN 9789747857047, [3]) contradicts itself - according to that book the Tambon in Chiang Mai is romanized as Chai Sathan, however the one in Nan as Chaiya Sathan. If looking for all occurrences of the word "ไชย", most are romanized as "Chai" except ไชยมนตรี, บ้านใหม่ไชยพจน์ and ไชยราช. andy (talk) 13:02, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I just created them on my own, after having taught myself Thai phonetics for a time until I felt confident that I wouldn't make any (big) mistakes. So, I don't have any sources or reference books to add. In fact, it is not that difficult for a Thai speaker to phonetically transcribe names if they have some knowledge of IPA and Thai phonology, as we don't have to look up every new words in a dictionary to know how to pronounce them. I don't plan to complete the transcription of all of the amphoe in the near future because I have become quite busy lately, but you can ask me to transcribe some names if you want.
As for ไชยสถาน, I am sure those two names are pronounced the same, as [ไช-สะ-ถาน]. I hear the name (of both places) mentioned in different television programs every now and then, and it is pronounced without inserting the /a/ sound between ไชย and สถาน. In this clip, the President of the SAO also repeatedly says [ไช-สะ-ถาน] from around 2:00 minutes on. I know, according to the pronunciation rule of Pali/Sanskrit loanwords, we should pronounce it as [ไช-ยะ-สะ-ถาน], but there are always exceptions when it comes to proper names. Moreover, if the name had to be pronounced with /a/ between those two components, it would be written together as "Chaiyasathan", not "Chaiya Sathan". This rule is not stated in the RTGS, but it is actually observed. The examples are Chai Nat (ชัยนาท), Chai Buri (ชัยบุรี), Chaiyaphum (ชัยภูมิ), Suphan Buri (สุพรรณบุรี), Kanchanaburi (กาญจนบุรี), etc. --Potapt (talk) 19:41, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Reference errors on 2 March[edit]

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Chiang Dao Wildlife Sanctuary or Pha Daeng National Park[edit]

Hi Potapt. I saw that you changed the image caption from Pha Daeng National Park to Chiang Dao Wildlife Sanctuary. These two nature reserves seem to have an overlap. I am wondering why you prefer mentioning the red-linked wildlife sanctuary over the national park. Regards, - Takeaway (talk) 21:25, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Oh. My mistake. I just read http://www.dnp.go.th/parkreserve/asp/style1/default.asp?npid=167&lg=2 which describes what belongs to the national park, and what belongs to the wildlife sanctuary. I'll make the appropriate changes to the Pha Daeng National Park article. Thanks! - Takeaway (talk) 21:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello Takeaway. Here are the official announcements for Chiang Dao Wildlife Sanctuary and Pha Daeng National Park. Chiang Dao Wildlife Sanctuary is located south of Pha Daeng National Park, and Doi Chiang Dao (or Doi Luang Chiang Dao) is located in the Sanctuary. --Potapt (talk) 21:40, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! I changed this and this to reflect the information. - Takeaway (talk) 22:00, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
I was misled by the incorrect and unsourced sentence "formerly known as Chiang Dao National Park" in the Pha Daeng National Park article. I have now also removed that sentence. - Takeaway (talk) 22:04, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Actually I think almost everyone (including me) was misled. Some photos submitted to Wiki Loves Earth 2016 are ruled out because of this.--Potapt (talk) 22:11, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Oh I forgot to say that that sentence is actually correct, according to this page. --Potapt (talk) 22:16, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
It seems very strange that Pha Daeng National Park used to be called Chiang Dao National Park, without actually encompassing Doi Chiang Dao itself. Can you perhaps find more information for it? I am starting to distrust everything now.... ;-) PS I can't read Thai and Google Translate is atrocious. - Takeaway (talk) 22:22, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
What a pity about those Wiki Loves Earth 2016 photos. Google Maps has it wrong too, calling the Wildlife Sanctuary the Chiang Dao National Park. By the way, do you know what happened to the images that used to be in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Birds_found_in_Pha_Daeng_National_Park? I created that category, and that could only have been because I had discovered images for it. I seem to recall that it contained a lot of files but now it's empty. - Takeaway (talk) 22:22, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
I suppose they used the name "Chiang Dao" according to the name of the forest and the district, and they might thought that the different statuses of the two areas would help distinguish them. Unfortunately they wouldn't. I has just moved the bird picture to the Category:Birds found in Chiang Dao Wildlife Sanctuary, according to this change, because its author stated that it was from "Doi Chiang Dao". --Potapt (talk) 22:29, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Aha! No wonder everyone is confused! - Takeaway (talk) 22:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes. In conclusion, according to that page, the National Park was first created as "Chiang Dao National Park" (Chiang Dao Wildlife Sanctuary had already existed at that time.) Then they had to change the name to "Pha Daeng National Park" because many tourists confused it with the Wildlife Sanctuary. --Potapt (talk) 22:42, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
How about changing Chiang Dao Wildlife Sanctuary into a redirect to Doi Chiang Dao? The overlap is huge. And include a "see also" in the Pha Daeng NP article - Takeaway (talk) 22:48, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure because Doi Chiang Dao is just a place in the Sanctuary. They aren't the same entity. --Potapt (talk) 22:55, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
I think I will make a map of these two areas to help clarify. It will take some time though. --Potapt (talk) 22:58, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Could you perhaps create a stub? You have enough refs to do so. It can be expanded at a later stage with maps etc. - Takeaway (talk) 23:01, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes of course, but I may need your help because my English isn't that good. --Potapt (talk) 23:05, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Sure! No problem! And I think that your English is pretty good by the way. I guess you could use the Pha Daeng NP as an example? I have to go sleep now though but I'll keep an eye on it and as soon as the article is there, I'll go through it to see if there are any mistakes. Thanks! - Takeaway (talk) 23:08, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Just saw the article and there are no language mistakes in it that I can see! Thanks for writing it! - Takeaway (talk) 14:29, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
You're welcome. :) --Potapt (talk) 14:33, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

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Provincial capitals[edit]

Hi. The Thai provincial capitals listing has been getting quite wild, and I've been wondering whether it's actually all original research and should be removed. Please see Talk:Provinces of Thailand#Province capitals. Thanks. --Paul_012 (talk) 14:08, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

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Isan or Isaan?[edit]

Hello, just noticed your edit. I live in Thailand and more often see it the transliteration as Isaan, probably because the vowel is long (-aa) - number 1 here: http://thai-language.com/ref/vowels Isan with a short vowel in Thai, if it exist (doesn't in my dictionary), would be a completely different word.

Hello. Yes, you are right. The word is pronounced /ʔii1 saan5/, with the long vowels /ii/ and /aa/. (/ii/ in this case is often shortened to be /i/ in colloquial speech.) However, I just followed the Royal Thai General System of Transcription, which doesn't differentiate between short and long vowels. I don't know the reason why. Maybe they don't want to use diacritics in the transcription, or they see that it is difficult to determine the length of vowels in some contexts. --Potapt (talk) 11:07, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Patong/Pa Tong[edit]

1. My dictionary gives RTGS as "Patong". 2. Since when did WP use RTGS as guidance for article titles? Seligne (talk) 19:25, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

1. I don't know what sort of dictionary it is, but I insist that "Pa Tong" is the correct RTGS spelling. Compare San Pa Tong District. 2. Apparently since a long time ago? For example, here Don Mueang District is used instead of Don Muang District, Si Racha instead of Sri Racha, etc. Last month I requested that Cha-Am District be moved to Cha-am District and nobody opposed it. Anyway, if you disagree with using "Pa Tong" because of whatever reason, please feel free to change it back. --Potapt (talk) 19:42, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

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Re:IPA transcription of Tagalog words[edit]

Here are the narrow transcriptions. The /a/ sounds are open central unrounded vowels [ä], otherwise noted as distinguished phonemes.

  1. bilis (bilís): [bɪˈlɪs]
  2. danas: [ˈdanas] or [ˈdanäs] (sometimes the stressed "a" sound becomes a front [a] for some speakers)
  3. hagibis: [haˈgibis]
  4. imbudo: [ɪmˈbudo̞] or imˈbudo̞
  5. lupit (lupít): [luˈpɪt] or [luˈpet] (note: the "e" phoneme is a close-mid vowel)
  6. malakas (malakás): [malɐˈkas]
  7. maliksi (maliksî): [malɪkˈsɪʔ] or {{[-siʔ]}}
  8. molave: [moˈlabɛ]
  9. simaron: [simaˈɾo̞n]
  10. talas: [ˈtalɐs]
  11. talim: [tɐˈlim]

I hope this helps. Raku Hachijo (talk) 12:02, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

  1. Actually, the [a] and [ɐ] happens between stressed and unstressed syllables.
  2. Sorry for the confusion. The [ɪ] is an allophone of [i]. Both are exchangeable and there's no way to predict when to use either form. In formal speech, "bilis" sounds like "bee-LEES" in English but snappier. But in casual and fast speech, native speakers like me tend to turn the /i/ into an [ɪ].
  3. Yeah, that's wrong on my part. I pronounce it usually with the glottal stop, but you can pronounce it without one.
  4. It's correct. It's pronounced as [hɐgʊˈpit].

Raku Hachijo (talk) 11:33, 5 March 2018 (UTC)