User talk:Ptcamn/Archive 1

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Archive 1 | Archive 2


Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Wikiacc (talk) 15:08, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)


Thanks for the phoneme inventory and the orthography over at Ewe language. I've been thinking for a while now that the it needed a cleanup and expansion. You're right about the IPA/non-IPA symbols of course. — mark 09:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I had looked at the wikipedia page on affricates and it neglected to state that but I believe you. I wouldn't care either way, but it bugs me that the tie bars don't show up on my Internet Explorer. I would think that wikipedia ought to use the form that works in IE since most people use that. AEuSoes1 20:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedian linguists recategorization[edit]

The user categorisation scheme for linguistics has changed. Henceforth there are separate categories for Wikipedians who are professional linguists (Category:Wikipedians by professionWikipedian linguists) and Wikipedians who simply have an interest in linguistics (Category:Wikipedians by fields of interestWikipedians interested in linguistics). You are currently listed under the former category; please reassign yourself if necessary. —Psychonaut 17:09, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Maria & Abujmaria[edit]

Hi. I noticed that you created the Maria language article, but there is already an article about the dialect/language, Abujmaria. Should the Abujmaria page be merged in the Maria page? --Hottentot 00:10, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, if we get enough info that's about the Abujmaria dialect specifically, then it should probably go on its own page, as has been done with various English dialects. But since that probably won't happen for quite a while, they should be merged.
Unless, of course, Ethnologue turns out to be wrong, and they're actually seperate languages. But I think they're a lot more likely to incorrectly split dialects into languages than they are to incorrectly merge languages as dialects. --Ptcamn 00:38, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Jiwarli language[edit]

Hi. You added that the iso3 code for Jiwarli is djl. However, this doesn't really make sense because the Ethnologue profile says it still has one speaker. The profile for Mangala (mem), however, says that it became extinct in 1986. Do you think that the latter is the correct iso3 code? Perhaps Kwamikagami got the two languages mixed up when he added the classification. --Khoikhoi (ex Hottentot) 04:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

This site says that Jiwarli is related to Thiin, Warriyangka, and Tharrkari. The latter two would correspond to Ethnologue's Wariyangga and Dhargari, both of which are in the Inland Ngayarda subfamily, and it lists Thiin as an alternate name for Djiwarli.
Ethnologue says Djiwarli had one speaker left in 1981; their info is just out of date. --Ptcamn 05:51, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I guess you're right. --Khoikhoi 01:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Badimaya language[edit]

Hi, I see you've changed the classification of Badimaya to put it in a subgroup called 'Wadjari languages'. I don't know where you got this subgroup from, but Badimaya is usually classified as being in the Kartu subgroup, along with Wajarri, Malgana, Nhanda, Yinggarda. Dougg 00:54, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Additional: I've just been looking at Ethnologue and see now that's where you got the classification 'Wadjari languages' from. Ethnologue is out of date on much of its information, including this. I'll add some references to the Badimaya article that mention classification. Dougg 01:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Yet another additional. I see now that you've made similar changes to: Wajarri language and Malgana language. Could you please put the 'Kartu' subgroup information back on those pages? cheers, Dougg 02:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Oops.. I assumed Kartu was taken from Ethnologue 14. --Ptcamn 07:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
No worries, thanks for fixing them up. A better resource than Ethnologue for WA languages is Handbook of WA Aboriginal Languages south of the Kimberley. cheers, Dougg 10:36, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


Hi PT,

You deleted a statement from place of articulation with the comment 'Labial-alveolar consonants are found in African languages, not "only a single language in New Guinea".' Could you give some examples? In Dagbani and Nzema they're allophones of labial-velars rather than separate consonants, and the reported labial-alveolars in the Chadic languages are actually consonant clusters. kwami 20:29, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Your clarification is better, but the article is about articulation, not phonology, isn't it?
(Besides, I think it's more correct to say "labial-velars and labial-alveolars are allophones of eachother" or "are in mutual distribution" than "labial-alveolars are allophones of labial-velars". The labial-velar realization isn't more significant than the labial-alveolar one.) --Ptcamn 20:54, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I think I've addressed your concerns in Labial-alveolar consonant. How does that look? kwami 21:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Looks fine. And Yelî Dnye looks scary. Distinctive prenasalized labial-postalveolar consonants? O_O The mind boggles. --Ptcamn 21:30, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


I know you don't like IPA, but I assume you are familiar with it? Would you mind checking that my IPA on Yagan is well-formed and accords reasonably well with my comments on the talk page? Drew (Snottygobble) | Talk 05:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Child slavery[edit]

Hello! Could you discuss (on child slavery talk) changes you made to Child slavery? Thanks, --FloNight 11:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


Is there really a Greek letter Sho?? I can't find any evidence about it anywhere apart from its own article. Georgia guy 23:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at the coin on the right hand side of the Kanishka article. --Ptcamn 00:07, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I see that you are the creator of Sho (letter). I've added a reference to AfD nomination for [[Sho (letter)]]. I'd appreciate it if you would add references to the article for the addition to the letter for use in the Bactrian language. (I'm not a language expert and don't have an appropriate reference.) —ERcheck @ 00:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


Updated DYK query Did you know? has been updated. A fact from the article Aversive case, which you recently created, has been featured in that section on the Main Page. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--Gurubrahma 11:44, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Esh.png[edit]

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License tagging for Image:Wabikoni.png[edit]

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I noticed we had a disagreement on the grammar of one sentence. All responsible wikipedians make edits in good faith, and probably shouldn't make degrading comments regarding other people's edits (eg like weird). Anyway keep up the wikipedia-ing. Gazjo 13:35, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean it to be degrading, it's just that the sentence sounded weird to me. It seemed to give the interpretation that the town itself was doing the recording. --Ptcamn 13:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


Updated DYK query Did you know? has been updated. A fact from the article Transcription of Australian Aboriginal languages, which you recently created, has been featured in that section on the Main Page. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

Aboriginal languages[edit]

I have updated most missions/settlements from Palm Island to teh Cape and one thing I didnt include was language and tribe names. I would be appreciative if you could expand.

I am in the process of adding ALL islands from Palm Island to the north and there is not much of the Aboriginal content within.


Placement of ONLY[edit]

I want to thank you for your comments about my edit regarding the word, "only." While it is true that in conversation we do not always insert "only" in front of the expression it modifies, in technical writing such as an encyclopedia, it is important to be as grammatically accurate as possible. According to the rules of English grammar, the placement of the word "only" should go in front of the expression it modifies because it adds clarity. Note the difference:

  • "You can only buy four apples" and
  • "You can buy only four apples."

In the first sentence, "only" modifies the action of buying. Thus it excludes other actions such as selling or eating, etc. The meaning is equivalent to "The only thing you can do is buy the apples." In the second sentence "only" modifies the number of apples that can be purchased.

I have been a college professor for 15 years and thus I made the edit to conform with the high standard expected in this encyclopedia. It is interesting that your Google search uncovered the many uses of "only occur." In some instances, "only occur" is correct if the intent is to modify "occur." The reason why colloquial English allows a misplacement of "only" is due to the advantage of tonal inflection, e.g.,

  • "I only want TEN flowers in the vase."

Since such emphasis is missing in print, I think it is important to be as clear as possible. Thanks again for your comments. Cheers, Cadillac 23:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Kana articles[edit]

Thanks for contributing to these articles. I speak no Japanese, and am stubbing all of these articles as part of a backlog cleanup. Feel free to add anything constructive to them: I can't do much besides stub them and revert vandalism on them! - Corbin 1 ɱ p s ɔ Rock on, dude! 02:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


Hello. Please remember to always provide an edit summary. Thanks and happy editing.

-- MyNameIsNotBob 09:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Digraphs & trigraphs[edit]

IMO it would be better to keep digraphs and trigraphs separate from single letters, regardless of whether they're treated as single letters in a given language, because there's interlanguage variation. There's already a category Category:Latin digraphs, we could perhaps rename it Category:Latin multigraphs.

Or do you think that wouldn't be a good idea? --Ptcamn 10:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. I didn't notice there was a Ng (digraph) when I created Ng (letter), they should probably be merged . For the categories a Category:Latin trigraphs could be created, but I have nothing against renaming Category:Latin digraphs instead. ---moyogo 10:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Indigenous Australians[edit]

Hi, I see you've removed the mention of Meriam Mir from the article Indigenous Australians. While I agree that it was an awkward bit of prose, I'm not sure I agree with it being removed as I think it is worth mentioning that there is (at least) one indigenous Australian language with a known connection to languages outside Australia. Dougg 00:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I was going to simply reword it myself, but I couldn't find a good way of putting it. I want to emphasize, though, that "known connection" is a particularly bad choice of words—while it's agreed that it's Papuan, an actual tangible connection hasn't yet been proven. Nobody's reconstructed Proto-Eastern Trans-Fly. --Ptcamn 00:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough. I do however think it's important to mention that there is one (and only one) indigenous Australian language which, it is thought, is very likely to be related to languages outside Australia. Dougg 01:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I've added a parenthetical, and fairly minimal, comment about Meriam to Indigenous Australians. Dougg 01:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ghe with upturn[edit]

Hello, I've noticed you've corrected my English and formatting in Ge_with_upturn article. Thanks a lot! Leaving out so many articles was unexcusable, and my formatting tells that I'm yet a newbie in WP. :) However, I object to 3 aspects of your edit: 1. When sound "g" was disappearing from the (Old) Belarusian speaking (17th-18th centuries?), the orthography (normative) for it to disappear from didn't yet exist. It was exactly language practice it disappeared from (or should it be "lingual practice"? I'm lost for the words here). 2. I'm not so sure about Ukraine, but, looking at the contemporary Belarusian reform, it was the whole grammar, not only orthography, which was reformed in 1933. 3. It were exactly "miscellaneous isolated publications" which promoted the use of "Ghe" in 20th century. These "publications" may well occur to be limited to the late (post ca.1953) works of Yan Stankyevich himself, even. Also, I'm unsure whether names of letters and sounds should not be marked up somehow. With italics or bold, perhaps? Yury Tarasievich 11:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Anglicizing the Ñ[edit]

I added some information on the Ñ page which you removed without giving a reason. I've gone ahead and re-added the content as everything I said was truth.

"The anglicizing of the ñ into an n is however incorrect, the letters only resemble each other. Mistaking the two letters changes the pronunciation and even meaning of a word/ name. The surname Peña in Spanish is pronounced (Pen-yah) but when incorrectly spelled Pena means embarrasment and is pronounced (Pen-ah)."

I think it should be known that the letter Ñ and N are not the same and anglicizing them is incorrect. They don't sound the same and they certainly don't represent the same. My example concerning the surname Peña is a great way in expressing the truth, without the essential letter ñ the entire thing falls apart, loses its pronunciation, and stands for "embarrasment." Perhaps you don't speak Spanish to fully understand the strong shame that comes from the word "pena," and if you do I hope you come to understand the neccesity in correct spelling and pronunciation. Instead of encouraging the destruction of something that doesn't need watering down such as anglicizing, it needs to be stated that there is no substitute for the letter Ñ. --Speakslowly 01:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Vote on move request[edit]

You might want to vote on your move nomination at Talk:Saanich (language) since nominations are not always counted as support votes. Thanks. AjaxSmack 08:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Really? Eep. --Ptcamn 08:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Australian languages not in Ethnologue[edit]

If I understand correctly, your list is intended to include only those not mentioned at all in Ethnologue (ie not even as dialects, or 'related to..')? If so, I've checked Ethnologue and found a number from your list that are mentioned.

Gudang, Wuthati, Luthigh, Yinwum, Ngkoth, Aritinngithigh, Mbiywom and Andjingith: under Uradhi (the last with diff sp)
Takalak: under Thaypan
Ngaygungu, Yirandhali: under Warungu
Yaygirr: under Kumbainggar
Yuyu: under Narrinyeri
Waanji: Waanyi? If so, under Garawa
Midhaga: under Yawarawarga, and Dieri
Nhanda: under Yinggarda (the Ethnologue people have advised me this will get its own ISO code soon).
Ngardi: under Warlpiri as Ngardilpa?

-Dougg 00:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I interpreted "related to.." as "we don't have an entry for these but we thought we had to mention them somewhere", so I've included them. It is a bit weird to stuff that info away in the dialect section.. I'll take off Waanji, though, since that's really a dialect.
Ngardi and Ngardilpa seem to be distinct. --Ptcamn 08:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)