User talk:Quiddity/Archive 12

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Archive 11 Archive 12 Archive 13



I enjoyed your recent posts to Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). Thanks. Sumana Harihareswara 13:43, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your thanks. :) –Quiddity (talk) 20:11, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Outline of cuisine

Somehow I missed the deletion discussion.

In the future, if I'm not there the first day, please contact me, so I can work on the outline under discussion to deal with whatever complaints might have been be lodged. When thus summoned, I'd refrain from voting, and would endeavor to improve the article above the nominator's threshold of acceptance.

When the Outline of relationships was nominated for deletion, I improved it from this to this. The nominator was very pleased about it and withdrew the nomination. He closed the discussion himself with a very nice comment.

I am pleased with the unanimous consensus to keep. I'm also impressed that WP:CLN was not ignored (except by the nominator). Thank you for mentioning it (twice).

By the way, based on views so far this year, total traffic for the entire outline department for the whole year will likely exceed 8 million page views. Up about 1.5 million from last year. Could go to as high as 10 million page views, depending on how many new outlines I can build.

Cheers. The Transhumanist 01:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Do you agree with the notion of the split? (ie :
  1. Merging the incomplete list of global cuisines currently in the Outline, into the much larger incomplete list of global cuisines currently at Global cuisine,
  2. then renaming that content to list of cuisines
  3. then expanding the remainder of the content at outline of cuisine, but not attempting to duplicate the plain geographical listing)
Or, are you firmly attached to keeping all the information, at the page named "Outline" ?
(I would suggest that this is an instance, where it does not belong within the Outline project's purview). –Quiddity (talk) 00:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
The purvue of outlines is taxomies. Structured lists.
The move was an experiment. The list was a bit large to include in a parent outline. The list is technically an outline itself ("Outline of cuisines, by type"?), but that's an issue that will have to wait. Better to further establish the set of core outlines first.
WP:SPLIT applies. Outline of cuisines came from List of cuisines, so I've moved it back to preserve the edit history, and split the outline off from it.
List of cuisines is the older of the two lists, having been split off from Cuisine in 2007. So Global cuisine should probably be merged into it. The Transhumanist 17:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Arg, I was hoping we might just discuss it, and then propose it on the talkpage, before actually shifting content around. The other editors who work on these articles do appreciate and deserve a chance to give input. I've left a note at Talk:Global cuisine, to give those editors a chance to weigh in. –Quiddity (talk) 20:13, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Also, you might be able to help with the question at Talk:Outline_of_science#Chemistry_hierarchy_seems_confusing.
TTFN, –Quiddity (talk) 00:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 Done. Thanks for the heads up. The Transhumanist 17:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Are you familiar with outliner functionality?

Outliners can view outlines in various ways, and also have powerful list item management commands.

Eventually, Wikipedia will get outliner features one way or another.

Looking to the future, it is important that outlines match the name of the technology that supports them. It would be counterintuitive otherwise. The Transhumanist 10:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I've used software for creating outlines, mindmaps, tree-graphs, and other infographics. I've used filofaxes, palmpilots, GTD index cards, and various other time/schedule management systems.
I always end up going back to just post-it notes, scrap paper/notebooks, and a basic text editor. –Quiddity (talk) 09:01, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

P.S.: now on to another issue...

One way you could help

Many people still don't get it. Yet some people take to outlines like fish to water. It seems to be an intuitive thing, mostly. I haven't been able to explain outlines very well to others who didn't already get it.

You are especially articulate. You made a visionary statement to Sats about outlines and pedagogy. Even I don't know exactly what you were referring to. It might help a great deal if you could put to print the educational significance and potential of outlines. Maybe you could help others make that intuitive leap.

Maybe you are that someone who can bridge the gap so that almost anybody could understand what these guys are talking about (especially the comments at the end).

Sincerely, The Transhumanist 10:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  1. I collect primers and manuals. First thousand words (and their foreign equivalents), usborne and eyewitness guides, manuals for adults, various types of school/uni textbooks, and (inter)national curriculum requirements. (Edward Tufte is a god. Buy all his books. Dive into his website.) Have done so for decades. Partially for my own amusement/insight, and partially to pass along to the children of friends. Pedagogical tools.
  2. Outlines are not unique, nor are they the final goal. They're just part of the path from a simple list of related keywords (the specialist vocabulary of a given topic), to a visual map of the interrelation of all human language. That wikimindmap site is a tiny step in the right direction, beyond outlines, but it's just a rough sketch and not a foundation to build upon. (Similar to TheBrain and dozens of similar tools, many of which I've tried to use over the last 15 years). There are dozens of projects (just within Wikimedia) that are trying to implement more of the visualization methods. Outlines are excellent in the meantime, and might provide assistance to their efforts, a few years from now, once some of the software is further along. But only if we keep outlines simple and semantically structured.
  3. They were partly created (and continue to be built and appreciated) to solve the massive flaws in our category system - we can't see sub-category items in the same page; we can't see definitions inline (except with popups); we can't denote the importance level of a topic within it's parent topic; etc etc etc.
  4. A very abstract pattern of their growth is: "Small list in #See also section"->"Small navbox"->"Massive navbox"->"Outline".
  5. Some of the objections to Outlines (and glossaries and lists of lists) are legitimate, and constantly need to be worried about. I tried to summarize ALL of the problems and ALL of the potential solutions in that RfC draft years back. I tried to do so utterly neutrally, as I do agree with the perspectives that say "the current situation isn't perfect!". MZMcbride articulated some of those, quite well, in that thread last year. The only real alternative to the current situation is a new namespace, but that has immense problems due to the non "black&white" nature of the pages concerned (ie. some of the outlines/glossaries have exemplary inline citations; and the lists of lists don't belong anywhere else, etc).
  6. The duplication isn't ideal. I do really fracking hate duplication. It can be a wasted effort, and it can lead to content-drift which causes more problems. The overabundance of "Community directories" really irks me; I can barely remember which one is which, and I've been staring at them for years. I wish many of them hadn't been incorporated into the Help navbar systems. I tried to convince everyone to merge&redirect them, back in the overhaul days, but no, someone had to go and fix them all up... >.> I'm frustrated by the overlap/duplication between some of the side-navboxes and footer-navboxes. -- Most of these problems, are insoluble, because editors all have subjective opinions on "How Much information should we have in this [Seealso/Navbox/Infobox/List]?" Some editors want only minimal/core info, and some want exhaustive lists. Partial duplication is the only way to amicably resolve this, and doesn't work in all situations (See: The Infobox wars).
  7. An example of this, is "how long should the annotations be, for each entry in an outline?" - I would suggest/argue that smaller is better, and we should be aiming for Disambig length incomplete sentences. They're more likely to fit on one line (and thereby show the "structure" of the list better) especially on laptops/smallscreens. They're what Wikidata uses for "descriptions" (d:Help:Description recommends 2-12 words). -- I would also agree that it is potentially troublesome to merely copy the first sentence(s) of a topic, to use as its annotation in an outline (which I suspect some editors do). Something like outline of cell biology, where all the annotations were custom written (they do not match the 1st sentences of their articles) is vastly preferable, for a multitude of reasons.
  8. There's no way to explain all of this (and all the bits that are unaddressed) in a simple paragraph/essay. Different editors come to the table with different backgrounds, different expectations, different assumptions, different demands. -- Some of them are just irked by an editor's [over]boldness. (It's easier to "Act now and explain/apologize later", which you do quite often. It's a lot better to "Suggest now, and act once some time has passed without objection (or once objections have been answered)". Eg. this merge looks like a good idea. But a talkpage note 24hrs beforehand would have been marvellous. Yes it's more effort. Being polite/friendly/civil/patient takes more effort, too, for naturally sarcastic bastards like me. That effort is worth it.)
(Note: I prefer it when people take a long (long) pause, before replying. E.g. I read your question, then went and drank coffee and made breakfast, and browsed some unrelated websites, and only then started to answer. I've also hit "Preview" about 20 times so far, and I won't hit "Save" until a while after a final check. I received 4 notification emails this morning, due to the changes you made to your questions above. ;)
(Note 2: Please don't reply inline/above. My head will explode. Ty ;)
Needmorecoffee. –Quiddity (talk) 21:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
I think I caught your definition of outlines in there: "simple list of related keywords (the specialist vocabulary of a given topic)". Is that all they are? The Transhumanist 07:17, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
I took over 2 hours to write that reply. I hope you got a hell of a lot more out of it than that... –Quiddity (talk) 08:47, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
I sure did. But you skipped the point, and my implied request, concerning ("educational significance and potential of outlines"). Perhaps you took my explanation out of context. I don't think I explained it very well (which ironically was my motivation for suggesting that you help in explaining it in the first place). Let me try again...

Some people do get it. They understand how to outline and how to apply them. But most people don't get it. That is, they don't understand what an "outline" is (in the generic non-Wikipedia pedagogical sense of the term "hierarchical outline"). In other words, they don't really comprehend the sentence outline taught in grade school, nor the topic outline used by professors to present a synopsis of their courses to their students. They don't know how to read them (perhaps because they just read the words and not the relationships represented in the display format). They don't know how to use them. And they don't know how to build them. They don't realize that what they are looking at is a conceptual blueprint, planning method, composition tool, communication tool, revision tool, efficient external memory system (for both recording and recall), or that printed outlines (static outlines) represent the least powerful outline interface and application. Because of this, they are oblivious to the fact that outlines have the potential to be upgraded into much more useful dynamic forms. But, without the outline data, you have nothing to upgrade.

Now getting back to the "I sure did" part...
The main conclusions I've drawn while reading your explanation are that:
1) no amount of explanation is going to recruit in the near future the number of editors required to manually maintain and develop the outlines. They won't see the potential of outlines until that potential has already been achieved.
2) I'm disappointed that the only potential you see in outlines is as a stepping stone to, or stop-gap measure until, the development of (other) visualization methods. In my opinion, outline technology has more potential.
3) most of your reply appears to based on the assumption of availability of only standard wiki tools for outlining. A reasonable assumption, since that what's currently primarily available. But, sufficiently better tools will likely render most of the arguments against outlines moot.
4) worrying about outlines at present is irrelevant. The only thing that should be worked on is the technology. Building static outlines, and doing so by hand, is a mindless distraction from developing outline productivity tools and adding functionality. Deleting the outlines would not slow down their development at all, if anything, it would speed it up.
Therefore, I've decided to switch back to predominantly programming and script development. When new tools are ready, you'll notice. Any editing on outlines I do in the meantime will likely be with WP:AWB or some other tool.
Wish me speed. The Transhumanist 11:53, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
P.S.: I'd still love to read your explanation on what usefulness hierarchical outlines (not just Wikipedia's outlines) have pedagogically. -TT
More later, but I just saw this, which you should watch for a brief flash halfway through... ;) –Quiddity (talk) 05:24, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
You stated in #6 in #Projects and projects above: "The Transhumanist sees their value (as do I), and wants more editors to help improve them, so that they can be as impactful in pedagogy as we know they can potentially be." :::::: I have two questions/requests:
  1. Please elaborate on their greatest potential impact in pedagogy.
  2. Of what usefulness are non-WP outlines in pedagogy?
(Your answers to these questions might help readers "get it", concerning outlines. Your answers might be the very words developers desperately need to explain their intuitive understanding of outlines, which would enable them to intelligibly express to other editors what good they are.) The Transhumanist 07:51, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
I have been thinking about it, and will get back to you, ASAP. (Also, I replied to the thread above, in case you missed that. It doesn't need a response - just a glance. :) –Quiddity (talk) 22:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

List of cuisines

Clean up complete. Comments welcome. The Transhumanist 17:09, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

This and Global cuisine, which was merged into List of cuisines and revamped, turned out really good. User:Northamerica1000 did an exceptional job on these. Maybe this calls for some accolades, a pat on the back, a barnstar, or something. (hint hint) The Transhumanist 15:46, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Searching for hidden text

Hi. If you are going to do this search at Help talk:Hidden text, can I ask that it isn't focused narrowly on WikiProject Composers? If you do get results from the search, I am guessing you might find between 30 to 60 instances on composer biographies. (Of course, you can check that. I could be wrong.)

On the other hand, if your look at articles with Infobox musical artist — the box that caused 90% of the problems with the CM projects — you will find <!-- See Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians --> on hundreds, or more likely thousands, of articles (one example: Bing Crosby). As I've pointed out before, it's likely other projects will also have hidden messages — adding them was very common a few years ago. Thank you. --Kleinzach 02:30, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Flag icons

Why I shouldn't add Flagicons to articles and how do you know me doing this??!! (talk) 20:45, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Replied at usertalk. –Quiddity (talk) 22:16, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Minsky quote

Hi Quiddity, thanks for the history of the quote :-) I actually knew that, but as you I didn't find anything earlier... The first quote is from Clifford Lynch, in the First Monday article. I just wrote to Minsky, anyway, thanks to your suggestion. By the way, I can give you a pleasant update on that: me and user Micru actually have been granted a little budget to work on Wikisource. You can find our project pages here and the grant pages here. If you want to join/help/collaborate/participate, you are obviously welcome. --Aubrey (talk) 07:58, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Future of Wikipedia outlines

See also: #List of cuisines, above

As you may have guessed, I'm a transhumanist.   Though it is not because I want to become a posthuman (an objective I find highly problematic/idealistic), but because I'm an avid student of transhumanism. My guess (not belief) is that due to accelerating change, the technological singularity may occur sometime this century, quite possibly during our lifetimes. The ramifications are mind-boggling. Will it mean the end of the human species due to competition for resources with a new intelligent lifeform? Is that question relevant if the new lifeform is based on human consciousness preserved in computer form?   Is that even plausible?   What will the politics be if and when computers acquire human-level or better intelligence? Does Moore's law really apply, or is it an error in logic akin to the gambler's fallacy?

Since the technological singularity is within the realm of likelihood, and because it would be the most profound event in human history, bringing to issue the very nature of human existence, I figure the prudent course of action, despite the risk of creating a self-fulfilling prophecy, is involvement. One approach to potentially secure the survival of the human race in the advent of the emergence of super-intelligent machines is the development of friendly AI. My support of this concept, and the fact that this could conceivably bring about the technological singularity, makes me a singularitarian.

I also guess that AI will emerge through the advancement of knowledge management technology. Organizing concepts leads to clear thinking, which produces clear understanding. Knowledge is the output of understanding, and that makes natural language understanding a key component of automated knowledge management processes. What we do at Wikipedia is knowledge management, an activity which is becoming more automated over time.

Wikipedia can be seen as a part of humanity's collective consciousness: much of its recorded experience and understanding, and some of its recorded wisdom. Outlines are an effort to further codify that data, which may facilitate statistical semantics (via semantic classification and corpus linguistics), and information retrieval technologies.

Taxonomies are a data organization paradigm. Outlines are taxonomies – taxonomies that model (the contents of) collective human awareness.

An effective taxonomy helps its users to navigate subjects without a search engine, which is especially useful when they know little to nothing about a subject. The taxonomy helps them do this in part by presenting its topics in context, which helps users assess relevance to their needs. It also efficiently presents a model of its subject, with the building blocks of the subject (its topics) clearly identified, in relation to each other. In a manner of speaking, it provides a bird's eye view. This allows users to rapidly assimilate an understanding (or gestalt) of the subject as a whole. The structure and streamlined content of outlines make it easier to understand complex subject matter. They make it even easier for reviewing a subject the user is already familiar with.

Besides being an intuitive structure for presenting related information, taxonomies are the focus of automatic taxonomy construction, a core subfield of natural language processing (NLP), a branch of artificial intelligence (AI) research.   Therefore, taxonomies, including Wikipedia outlines, have the potential to play a major role in the development of AI and more specifically artificial awareness.

Such a role would of course be realized through automation.

By being involved, we at least have the potential of steering the technology in the right (i.e., a human friendly) direction.

At least one of the interim applications is obvious. Helping to build this educational resource. The number of subjects with enough subtopic articles to justify a Wikipedia outline extends into the thousands, possibly even into the tens of thousands. With the current labor pool, writing these outlines would take many lifetimes. From the beginning of the outline department, we have experienced a shortage of outline contributors, developers, and maintainers. Automatic taxonomy construction could reduce the need for them. At the same time, having interesting and powerful tools for working on outlines would likely attract editors to outline development.

An advanced stage in the development of educational tools will likely be NLP-proficient client software programs, that can help you find whatever it is you are looking for, or whatever it is that you need, and presenting it in a way that is most easily absorbed by you. Taxonomies (i.e., outlines), will likely be the heart of such tools, because taxonomies are at one and the same time a type of data structure (for storing data) and data map (for accessing data).

Therefore, outline development (including here, at Wikipedia) may lead to the building of automatic taxonomy construction tools, which may influence the advancement of NLP technology, which could lead to the emergence of natural language understanding, which could constitute one basis for AI. In other words, this could result in really useful outline presentation tools and outlines, and a lot of them.

Keep in mind that outlines themselves are tools. Manual outlines facilitate the planning, the composition, and the revision of most kinds of literary works. There's no reason why automated outlining technology couldn't be extended to do the same thing. Wikipedia, the world's most extensive centralized pool of free and accessible educational material, may eventually help write itself.

The ideas above are what I think about when someone mentions the pedagogical potential of outlines or outlines as educational tools. It's a large part of the what the uninitiated don't get.

In conclusion, I think it is the creation of outline authoring tools, and not outlines directly, that we should be focusing on.

Sincerely, The Transhumanist 01:25, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Very interesting synopsis. I'm familiar with and agree with the vast majority of it. [The only area I'm personally agnostic in, is Friendly AI, because contemplating (never mind designing and "regulating"!) the motivations of something smarter than us, and so very different from us, is nigh-impossible.] I've read a great amount of scifi, many digests and interviews by the outspoken thinkers, and some academic papers, touching on these topics.
If you exclude the AI/kurzweilian paragraphs, the above would make for a good explanation of outlines, for a broad spectrum of people. (Anything related to AI or cyberware makes a lot of people squeamish, and Understandably so. Know thy audience.)
Re: Automation. Wikidata will be the thing, in the long run. That's the only way to do it, cross-linguistically.
(Wikidata is still in its infancy, and most people there are overloaded with the basics and current plans, so I'd recommend great caution with any attempts to "recruit" as you often do... Your enthusiasm can be contagious for some people, but it can be grating on other people, particularly those with low patience for tangents and hypothesis. As I think you understand.)
But everyone who thinks in longterm timespans, in these areas, are already contemplating these notions, for sure. See and meta:Grants:IEG/MediaWiki data browser for 2 (separate) nubbins, on the tip, of an outcropping, of the iceberg. (I composed a note to the grantee of this a while ago, and your post has prompted me to finally get around to leaving it on his talkpage).
See also, this wired article, for a somewhat related tangent (the last third specifically).
I'm still thinking about your earlier question, and will get back to you asap. –Quiddity (talk) 03:50, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Concerning the development of friendly AI, it may be analogous to raising good kids. Will friendly AI be programmed or taught? Don't know. But, technological development is not a force we can stop, especially so in the computer industry, so we're likely to have strong AI sooner or later whether we want it or not. So developing friendly AI is worth a try, even if it is a one in a million shot. But with so many variables, we don't know what the probabilities are.
As for Wikidata, it's cryptic. I don't have a clue how to make use of it. If it can easily provide fill-in the blank information such as pronunciation, population, area, that is standardized for all countries, then it could be useful. As for other centralized data, I'm thinking a database of annotations might be useful.
I've been tracking the grant (I'm the one who posted it at the WP:CBB). Based on his description, it seems like a data source and framework we can make use of. But the link you provided is incorrect (mw: goes to mediawiki, m: goes to meta). The author obviously doesn't see the potential of outlines as a data source, yet he mentioned a phrase that makes this outline developer drool: "structured data". That we can definitely make use of. He also stated "non-hierarchical", but if it is structured, then it has fragments that are at least 2 levels, and from that you can discern parent-offspring relationships and use those to build outlines. Its database may also be useful for filling in blank data fields (population, etc.).
The article on automated news reports is interesting. I'm working on something similar for outlines.
My eyelids are closing. Got to go. The Transhumanist 11:40, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


I think some "advertisements" for Flow might be helpful. My idea is that getting some editors to put banners on their user talk pages would help the people who use user talk pages (i.e., the target audience) find out that this is happening.

Would you take a look at my first attempt at User:WhatamIdoing/Flow ad and let me know what you think? (Feel free to edit; it's just a sandbox.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:19, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I had a quick stab at it. Just "thinking out loud". Feel free to revert completely, and/or just leave in a detail or 2.
Dinner time for me now. Low blood sugar abounds. I've been craving a fluffernutter all day, and I blame you! (I had my first(&only) one a few weeks ago (using nutella), and still have the necessary ingredients at hand... ;) –Quiddity (talk) 05:12, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
I've never tasted a fluffernutter (I'm not fond of marshmallow, so my motivation is low). I'm instead trying to figure out a quick way to turn natural peanut butter into (dark) chocolate peanut butter.
I like your additions. Perhaps we'll come up with a few more, and then pick our favorites to offer to other people. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:12, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
You've had some good ideas. I particularly like Watchlist a single thread? Flow will do that. Have you done much template editing? I've been wondering if we could figure out how create a regular template that lets you use a parameter to pick which item to display (e.g., {{Flow ad|number=1}} to get whichever one we list first). WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:38, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to do that. Experiments didn't work.
I've left a simple version, that would let a user fill in the blanks, with their own selection for each line.
(eg The current version would allow something like: {{ User:WhatamIdoing/Flow ad | test sentence | [[WP:FLOW|example squirrel]] }} =

User:WhatamIdoing/Flow ad

But that's probably not optimal. Sorry! –Quiddity (talk) 06:00, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
You got further in your experiments than I did. I've asked Scottalter to take a look; I believe he knows a lot more about templates than I do. If he doesn't have time to take a look, then we can ask for help at WP:WikiProject Templates. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:07, 6 June 2013 (UTC)


Thanks for the link you posted in reply to the poll at the village pump about how effectively we communicate existing policy. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:56, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Template spam

Could we get you to slow down with the spamming of the template. There are concerns being raised.Moxy (talk) 04:51, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

@Moxy: I'm all done, and typing a reply at the other page now. –Quiddity (talk) 04:53, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

exclude in print category

what is the purpose of this category? as far as I can tell, no sidebar templates appear in print, so the category is redundant to simply saying that it uses sidebar.

for example, take Template:American socialism, which does not include this category. now go to Espionage Act of 1917 which uses this template, and click on 'printable version'. this sidebar is not there, but is there PDF version. doing the same for John Zerzan, which uses two sidebar templates (both of which have the category), we seem the same behaviour. hence, it seems whether or not they are actually excluded in print is independent of the category. it seems it would be better to simply have sidebars never appear in print, rather than relying on a category to track it. Frietjes (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

@Frietjes:Ah! Good points. I tracked it down to Template:Sidebar with collapsible lists which has "Exclude in print" already, so you're completely correct. I must get to this 2nd coffee before it cools down, so feel free to revert me at the other template (done). –Quiddity (talk) 17:29, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Hunting for embedded outlines


I'm looking for outlines embedded in articles.

I've run across a number of these over the years. One example is the Outline of fencing, which used to be part of the fencing article.

If you know about or spot any structured general topics lists in articles, please let me know (on my talk page).

Another thing you might find are articles that are comprised mostly of lists (without "Outline of" or "List of" being in the article's title). If you come across any of these, please report them to me on my talk page. I'd sure like to take a look at them.

Happy hunting.

I look forward to "hearing" from you (on my talk page). Sincerely, The Transhumanist 07:37, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

P.S.: I'm still waiting on that "asap" response you mentioned above.


Sure, go ahead. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:09, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Village pump notification

Terrifying insights on my userpage, mmm? You must scare easy. Sure you didn't mean to link that to Bishzilla? Or Capo Darwinbish. I admit db's page is alarming. Bishonen | talk 09:43, 14 June 2013 (UTC).

Partially I didn't want to utterly confuse User:Thnidu, and partially you do have educational content at the User:Bishonen userpage, and partially I was somewhat hoping bishzilla might leap into the discussion... >.> Essentially it was late at night, and amused me, and I hoped it might amuse you. (But yes, that hummingbird scares me. How does it move? What does it crave? What poetry lurks in its nega-soul? D: ) –Quiddity (talk) 15:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Well, the bird's not a major diabolic presence, sorry to disappoint — merely my friend Giano's obnoxious pet. He calls it Spumoni. :-) I used to hang on the admin channel on IRC, years ago, and some civility cops were badmouthing G, which was a popular bonding ritual at the time, and somebody said how incredibly annoying the fluttering bird was on his page. I immediately put a small version of it on mine, as a gesture of loyalty, and not least to annoy those guys. It used to sort of give me seizures, but I've gotten quite attached to it over the years. Good boy, Spumoni! Bishonen | talk 19:09, 14 June 2013 (UTC).
Ha! I had guessed it was from Phaedriel, or one of the userpages she helped design (I've seen it in many places). Now I want ice-cream, which I do actually have in the freezer, but have been resisting for weeks... –Quiddity (talk) 19:14, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Banana Fish

Hello, Thank you for the welcome page as well as calling this to my attention. While I understand that it may not exactly be seen as offensive material and does not violate any wikipedia policies, I do believe there should be caution with leaving Mr. Frederik L. Schodt's quote without further expansion on reception as it can be taken as slightly misogynistic. Until more data can be gathered about the reception of this article, I will leave it.

Once again thank you for the welcome page and for listening to what I have to say. Cultivatexpand (talk) 22:31, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Replied at user's talkpage. –Quiddity (talk) 05:52, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Re: Reply: Thanks for the helpful links and the kind advice! Though I personally do not agree with some of what he says, I don't deny that Frederik L. Schodt is a respectable source. I only hope that this section of the article can be expanded more so that his review is not the sole source of how it was received. I will definitely look into what you suggested. Once again thank you so much! I am still very new at this so you have my gratitude. Cultivatexpand (talk) 08:13, 16 June 2013 (UTC) Cultivatexpand


See User talk:Bgwhite#Really? Bgwhite (talk) 23:00, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh... I didn't know about the {{ping}} template until I saw you using it. Thanks for the heads up. It is easier than going the wikilink route. Bgwhite (talk) 23:04, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Heads up: Help:Interlanguage links

The lead is confusing. The Transhumanist 14:20, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

@The Transhumanist: Do you mean all the 4 hatnotes? Or the single paragraph introduction (which I've now split into a numbered-list) ? –Quiddity (talk) 05:58, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
WP:LEAD: "serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects." (Emphasis mine). What are the most essential points about editing interlanguage links? The Transhumanist 20:33, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
@The Transhumanist: I've never edited that page before. Help talk:Interlanguage links exists for exactly this reason. You can ping me afterwards, in a case like this, if you think I might be interested, but for the love of doG, use talkpages the way they were intended. Put your concerns there. –Quiddity (talk) 00:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
It's not of concern to me. I don't use interlanguage links. (I was surveying WikiData and came across this). Based on your interest in WikiData and its relation to Wikipedia, I figured it would be of concern to you. Nothing was mentioned in the lead about the relation. The Transhumanist 05:06, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Hey Quiddity!

Just been having a run down memory lane! But I think you cursed me back when—my eyes have gone very south and reading these days is restricted to about a two inch tall band! Focal depth range has gone south as well. I get such looks in the grocery store trying to select meats doing price comparison. It's actually kind of funny, but annoying to have so many hands-on talents handcuffed by the condition.

I've been browsing our color choices discussion years ago and can't find the link for that web page color test site you gave me back then. I lost that hard drive, and I know I had in bookmarked for years.

I'm trying to have a youngster web-meister 'tone down' a garish web board that gets a lot of older viewers, and he's willing to take some direction. Can you email me (using my user cognomen) direct at gmail dot com with a link? It'd be nice to touch base with you again. If you ever come near Boston, I'll feed you up! The dinner invitation is non-negotiable! // FrankB 15:34, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Replied via email. –Quiddity (talk) 16:17, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Test edits on meta

Hi, please don't feel you need to undo my tests while I'm doing them: I will clean up afterwards anyway! - Pointillist (talk) 19:45, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

@Pointillist: Sorry, I didn't realize you were still testing. I was just restoring the sandbox after a test edit. I guessed that your edit was an attempt at communicating a flaw in the system, and that it could be reverted so that other users could test it. Carry on, as you were :) (P.s. mediawiki, not meta. I keep making that mistake, too!) –Quiddity (talk) 19:48, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Mmm, I was forgetting that I go to mediawiki to test and meta to see comments! The template stuff is definitely behaving quirkily, anyway. - Pointillist (talk) 19:59, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Re: your question about indents in the test page: Easy: We don't do indents in articles! (Or rather, we're only meant to use them for their actual purpose: definition lists. And those haven't been implemented yet.). ;) –Quiddity (talk) 20:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying that VE knows that and deliberately diverted the keystroke so that it would highlight a hyperlink four lines above? That would be very interesting.... - Pointillist (talk) 21:45, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

You've added a section to the bottom of what?

You were talking about the outline. I checked the bottom, and there is no new section. Reply on my talk page please. The Transhumanist 23:03, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

"warrants a real intro"

Note: This is regarding Index of language articles ‎

What's wrong with the intro as it was? The para you're restoring is a rambling piece about how it's difficult to count languages (even though it does not say that explicitly). Further, all the langs in Ethnologue are in ISO 639-3.

Finally, whether it's a "partial list of natural languages" is irrelevant; it's now an index of articles relating to languages on WP—as it should've been right from the start.

Surely there are more worthy battles to fight out there than a bloody index page? — Lfdder (talk) 01:24, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

@Lfdder: All lists of lists and related pages are just indexes to articles on Wikipedia. We still don't include selfrefs.
I helped create half the projects that track these things, I know what I'm blithering about.
If you disagree with my edits that revert yours, then WP:BRD suggests that you take it to the talkpage of the article. –Quiddity (talk) 01:28, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
The point is that para distracts from what this list really is (an index). Whether E has this many languages and how many langs are in each family have nothing to do with it. — Lfdder (talk) 01:43, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
If you want to edit the lead, and put some effort in to it, then go ahead, but if you just delete the whole thing and replace it with 2 sentences, I don't feel that is sufficient respect for the content that currently exists.
The title is irrelevant: all Lists have to follow the same content guidelines, and an introduction to a "List of languages" is useful and informative for readers. –Quiddity (talk) 01:46, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
There was an introduction. I thought it was adequate. Am I supposed to make stuff up to get it to the same length it was before? But it's not a list of languages; it's a list of language articles. — Lfdder (talk) 01:48, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
It's a partial list of natural languages. If relevant redlinks for articles that should exist get added, then that's good.
If you'd like to continue this discussion, then please take it to the article's talkpage, so that other editors can contribute. Thanks. –Quiddity (talk) 01:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
But it is so much more fun to discuss things on your talk page.   :)   The Transhumanist 10:09, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


But then what about the FabLab global movement? The current version doesn't show how it is expanding fast and worldwide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aghalim (talkcontribs) 17:04, 20 June 2013‎ (UTC)

Replied at your talkpage. Please continue the discussion at Talk:Fab lab#List of FabLabs, rather than here. Thanks. –Quiddity (talk) 17:13, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser

Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser#Proposal to move warning box to just beneath the AWB header box

I'm trying it your way, and now I'm getting my ass chewed out for that. The Transhumanist 22:22, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

  • An ass-chewing is what happened at your usertalkpage. The discussions at the page you linked to (in a massive and wikilinked header here >.< ) are feedback from fellow editors.
  • The change in template ordering is subjective, and basically irrelevant. - It could be argued, that Not having the header line-up with the header on the subpages, reinforces the warning, by making it more visible. And the warning is bloody important.
  • At the section above, Kumioko suggests a sandbox (what an idea!). Sandboxes are good. Kids like 'em. Editors like 'em. Admins like 'em.
  • Re: Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser/Technical. I've never used AWB. I can't help. But more than 1 template seems daft - Just make a collapsible section in the main template. (Demonstrated in a sandbox version).
  • I know that you know how they work. –Quiddity (talk) 23:55, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Feedback? OK. Let's see if you can say that with a straight face. Concerning the technical page, I mentioned layout problems only. The page's content is nothing more than another transcluded page. That section's edit button gets you a screen of almost nothing, while the subsection edit buttons bring you away from the current page. Awkward. What guidelines cover this? The Transhumanist 05:30, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
New design: Kumioko said: use a sandbox. Potato hose said: don't fragment the navigation into sidebars and footers. That is feedback.
Moving the template order: Potato hose didn't specify a particular reason, but I suggested one above.
Transcluded page: Where else is it used? (An inactive project page, is the only other use. It probably doesn't need to be transcludable anymore.) Have you proposed, succinctly, how it should be fixed? (No, you listed all the flaws, but suggested no solutions.) What guidance? WP:TRANSCLUDE and Wikipedia:Transclusion costs and benefits and common-pragmatism. Suggest a fix. If there are no objections in 24hrs, enact that fix. –Quiddity (talk) 17:55, 21 June 2013 (UTC)


Hey just now I created an article in the sandbox and I dont know where did it go...Cos im trying to find it out everywhere but I aint able to do this. please help me out...please Crisella (talk) 09:49, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

(Note: Replied at Crisella's talk. –Quiddity (talk) 01:37, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Canada Day

In case you hadn't seen it:

WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Nifty. Ta. –Quiddity (talk) 02:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)



Per your comment. Cheers, Ocaasi t | c 02:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Yah, but there's no way to add templates and categories and such, without a mouse. (Assuming you mean our conversation about typing-flow.) [But it's not really aimed at someone like me, who enjoys a plethora of brackets... >.>  ;) ] –Quiddity (talk) 02:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Quiddity,

I've posted two links: 1. Addition and multiplication tables for senary (base-6) numeral system. The only thing could be seen suspicious is a word "sex" that is "six" in Latin. 2. Digital prayer wheel generator. The idea of Dalai Lama is that every hard disk containing mantra is a prayer wheel, so I made a client-side script generating entered mantra maximum times up to selected file size. The only thing user has to do is to download a file. After this his hard disc spinning 5400 or 7200 rounds per minute becomes a prayer wheel and the entered mantra is said (5400 or 7200)*(quantity on mantras in file)/minute. E.x. the file has 10000 mantras, the speed is 5400, so it's said 54000000 time a minute. I have chosen "OM NAMAH NARAYANA LEGALIZE MARIJUANA" as a default, but this could be easily changed by user.

Yura.vrilyuk (talk) 15:12, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

@Yura.vrilyuk: Hi. I removed the links partially because they are self-promotional (See WP:EL#ADV), and partially because they contain software that is inaccessible to a large number of users (See WP:ELNO #7). If after reading those 2 links, you still believe the links deserve addition in those articles, then please make a suggestion on the talkpage of each article requesting that another editor adds those links. Thanks. –Quiddity (talk) 15:23, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
The only self-promotional thing on is a domain name, it also contains ground.html signed with my real name. You can see the file system of the site my entering with flashget's site explorer etc., there is no additional content, three pages only. Scripts of two posted links are javascript, fully client-side, you can check wheels.html by entering 100000000 (100M) into file size and clicking download. The download process is imitated, the file is generated client-side by browser and saved to hard disc after clicking download immidiately.
Numeral system conversion is done by javascript feature, so the problem is javascript performance in firefox. See
This fact is not unique in internet and I don't think it's right to decline a link because of this reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yura.vrilyuk (talkcontribs) 15:42, 3 July 2013‎ (UTC)
I'd recommend making these comments at the article's talkpages (Talk:Senary and Talk:Prayer wheel), that way other editors can give feedback, and potentially support the addition of the links you are suggesting. Thanks. –Quiddity (talk) 15:47, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Horizontal Timelines

Hi Quiddity, thanks for your efforts on the templates, hopefully a template genius will appear and will resolve things. EdwardLane (talk) 10:13, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


yr user page - thats all a bit outta front sort of stuff, and margaret mead, what next? sats 09:54, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Yay! Encouragement! No, wait, that's not...
To misquote Watterson, "Being friends with an Australian is wanting to hug and strangle them at the same time." ;p
Yeah, it's all a bit strange, but so are "people" in general. Toujours gai, archy, toujours gai.
That Mead [attributed] quote has been there for years! I'll probably rotate it soon. (I had fun with the ones I left at commons and meta... ;)
ttfn, –Quiddity (talk) 19:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
hmm, the bus driver from toronto to niagara falls was less effusive about australians, more enthusiastic about noting what a border can delineate, differences about what sort of car factories and how they were run etc... considering how many car plants are about to close in europe, its all interesting... sats 05:25, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Color blind

Thanks for calling my attention to your problem. I hope it's clear enough now. I have checked other WikiProjects and thought that might be of interest to you to discuss the problem with them too. If not, I am sure the people at the Village Pump will be glad to talk with you. Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball, Wikipedia:WikiProject Ayyavazhi, Wikipedia:WikiProject Albania, Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethiopia, Wikipedia:WikiProject Solar System. Oh by the way, there is a reason for the grey color, there we deal with silver or gold. Best regards, Krenakarore TK 10:30, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I've replied at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numismatics#Color and currency, so that everyone can read. Thanks for prodding me for a full explanation ;) I'm not color-blind myself, but I'm familiar with the various accessibility problems that some people can have (whether from poor eyesight or color-blindness), or that result from imperfect monitors (significant portions of the world are using old and semi-functional monitors).
I'll take a look at those other links/projects soon. Thanks again, –Quiddity (talk) 17:21, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


Dear Quiddity,

I will be delighted if that Dubious tag can be removed, but please read the talk page, WT:VisualEditor/FAQ, because the link you give does not actually cover the points I raised as being potentially problematic, and so does not end the discussion. Adam Cuerden (talk) 05:39, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Infoboxes ArbCom case opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes/Evidence. Please add your evidence by July 31, 2013, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, — ΛΧΣ21 17:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your elucidating and rare statement on the very topic! (Some "evidence" reads as if the topic was Il diavolo di Wikipedia. You will guess who created that.) - Pic size: some advanced templates, such as {{infobox opera}}, have the option of a variable pic size. - May I insert your thoughts in my thoughts? Please consider to become a project member, - you are already a member in spirit ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:13, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm glad it is appreciated, hopefully it moves things forward; I've been thinking about, and watching, and occasionally trying to nudge forward these problems, for years.
Re: Opera infobox - are there any in-situ examples where the image is over 200px wide? (All infoboxes allow custom image sizing, but 200px width is generally recommended because otherwise the width of the infobox below increases in aesthetically imperfect ways, eg. far too much whitespace, compressing the whole lede section.)
I do have other details to potentially add to the Evidence, but I need to re-read everything included by others so far, and organize my notes, before I request permission to go over the 500 word limit.
Note: I helped create Template:Infobox classical composer, during the lengthy RfC that encompassed it. I believe that better/clearer template-documentation, and those hidden-comments to be copied along with the example-code, are critical to avoiding some of the misinformation/oversimplifications problems that the "Drive-by infobox field fillers" are prone to creating.
I've had QAI on my watchlist for months. I don't tend to "signup" for wikiprojects, being somewhat of an m:exopedian by inclination, but I do contribute (or just lurk) at a whole heck of a lot of them ;) Feel free to copy my comments anywhere helpful. –Quiddity (talk) 16:53, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for more thoughts. There are hardly any opera examples yet (feels like more reverted than staying), and no reason to use larger pictures, but the option is there. I know that it's used for buildings such as Little Moreton Hall. It's also {{infobox musical composition}}, but not documented yet, shown here. - {{infobox classical composer}} was likely frustrating. I used {{person}} here. - I will copy later, thanks for the spirit! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:05, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Ghost Writer

Quiddity - I have made a revision to the article “Phaneron” and there seems to be some sort of ghost user named “PrinceMartyr” who puts the post back with no references. I tried to go to their talk page, but there seems to be no such user. Please advise.Semeion (talk) 14:02, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I've replied at Talk:Phaneron#a confused post. Hope that helps. :)
Addendum: It's always helpful to add an edit-summary, whether for the editor that you're reverting who'll see it in their Notification, or for any other editors who come along later, or see the change in their watchlist. Even something as short as "See talk" is better than nothing. :) –Quiddity (talk) 16:36, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

You deserve this


xoxo, Metsfreak (Hello!)| 03:24, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Replied at User talk:Metsfreak2121#Further concerns. –Quiddity (talk) 03:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I deserve this

trout Self-trout

xoxo, Metsfreak (Hello!)| 04:00, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for this followup. Good humour is important! We just have to be careful about how other people are going to receive our words. –Quiddity (talk) 15:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


Title was: "You can't "clue stick" someone when WP:ENC is just some random opinion"

If you want a functional clue stick, it needs to be a policy.

Like I said,[1] whoever marked the "clue stick" (I like the phrase) as a mere WP:Essay has opened up a can of worms. As a WP:Essay, it can now just be dismissed by editors we're try to clue-in as "well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion man."

Really, how do you expect a mere essay to be effective at all? In fact, I was completely flustered when I tried to clue someone into WP:ENC and found out since last I looked it had morphed into basically useless for my purposes.[2] (N.B. I only ended up back on that evil page, and trying to fix it per the community status quo, due to using it as a clue stick regarding whether or not WP:AFD magically makes information disappear from the internet.[3])

So obviously we can't have it both ways anymore. If you really want a useful clue stick, I hope that you will support making WP:ENC, after perhaps years of neglect, a WP:Policy. Yes, WP:NOT predates it, but that an historical accident, and Wikipedia should be an encyclopedia, not just a list of things an encyclopedia is not with some off topic suggestions up top. -- Kendrick7talk 06:04, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Like I said, I support removing the essay tag. But I don't want the page to be anything, I'm just trying to explain why it is the way it is. I've never linked anyone to it before, but I have watched it for many years.
I think the rest is best addressed at the actual talkpage. Please repost anything from above, or anything further, there. Thanks. –Quiddity (talk) 06:37, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Book cover design tool

Re "The Cover Designer is FREE to use but you need to be logged in"...

Can you think of any other way that users can save designs so that that they can use them again at a later date.

Can you think of a way that users can upload images to appear in their clip art gallery so that other users cannot use them?

So, the only solution is to have each user log in, and then their own designs and images can be assigned to them and edited/used by them and no-one else. The service used to be without a login, but it was then discovered that users had no privacy or control over their designs or images.

If you now agree, please revert your deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wallumbase (talkcontribs) 17:25, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

The info I left at your talkpage is still key. Reg-required = generally not linked. –Quiddity (talk) 02:58, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Message from Diego Moya

Hi, Quiddity.

Do you work for the WMF in any way other than as a volunteer? If not, you should :-) Your clear explanations, and the sheer amount of WMF projects that you follow would make you a very good public liaison. Diego Moya (talk) 19:56, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm just a volunteer at the moment, but I did apply during the previous round of hires for liaisons, so it is a role I've been keeping in mind, and I'm trying to learn from the examples of the other liaisons. I'm happy you've found my replies (mostly at mw: for any talkpagefollowers reading this ;) to be clear and helpful. Hopefully the devs do, too! However, I'm personally intrigued by the Flow/Notifications/VE/Multimedia projects (both their potential pros and cons), so I would be following them as a volunteer regardless.
Any suggestions/criticisms for improving my communication-style(s) would be welcome. –Quiddity (talk) 20:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Conway's Game of Life Edit

Sorry, I didn't know I had to download it worked fine for me because I have Mathematica. Didn't know that had anything to do with why I had it. Thanks for catching that. Steeldragon7 (talk) 21:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

No problem, thanks for the followup. :) –Quiddity (talk) 18:51, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Graphical timelines

Re: Your request at Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks regarding graphical timelines

I have opened Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/DavidLeighEllisBot for this task. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 00:03, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I've commented there. –Quiddity (talk) 18:51, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Biting new user!!

I do not appreciate your interference when I have work in progress and it is in the rules not to pick on new people!

The portal is perfectly in the right place, ie music, artist. person has been around longer than most on the list!!

Kindly refrain from deleting, when it even states work in progress. Why? Because some other righteous person made a mistake before you! Vandalism!!

Give us a chance, same day deletion is bullying don't you think!

I had every intention of providing a lot of links and information and I feel crap now! So thanks for ruining my day and putting my blood pressure up! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Storm013 (talkcontribs) 17:05, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

(allcaps message converted to sentence caps) Replied at usertalkpage. –Quiddity (talk) 17:20, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


Thanks for the note and helping out on pointers to episodes. We're still trying to iron out all the kinks. Here's a link to the latest Youtube video of 99: -- Fuzheado | Talk 07:20, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome! I'm enjoying the vodcasts ;) –Quiddity (talk) 17:27, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Precious again

Cornflower blue Yogo sapphire.jpg

Thank you for returning and trying to make other quality contributors return, with a rarely simple invitation: "Try to work/smile/love/laugh/work alongside the other humans", - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:34, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

A year ago, you were the 231st recipient of my PumpkinSky Prize, repeated in br'erly style, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:02, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again Gerda :) I've moved that sea of userboxes and thoughts to a subpage, User:Quiddity/How it Works, where that sentence lives on. –Quiddity (talk) 17:27, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Shorter welcome

Thanks for the good advice. I have created User:Buster7/welcome and will begin using it next. ```Buster Seven Talk 00:56, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I just used it for the first time. Trouble free. Thanks ```Buster Seven Talk 22:16, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Glad it inspired! I've watchlisted it, to see any tweaks you make in the future.
I do suspect even mine is too long - I noticed Steven Walling uses an incredibly short message.
Eventually we'll probably rethink the way welcomes and helpful-links get given to new editors, and your discussion at Epochfail's talkpage touches on some good points. Maybe a simple welcome message, and a few links (or a quick wizard) that trigger the creation of a userpage which could include a variety of the useful links from the plethora of Wikipedia:Welcoming committee/Welcome templates. Something that each user (in the variety of archetypes/demographics that each may be) could decide on for themselves. Food for thought. –Quiddity (talk) 23:01, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
For short, dignified welcome prehistoric newbies, feel free use User:Bishzilla/Welcome. bishzilla ROARR!! 23:40, 9 September 2013 (UTC).
Heehee! I've seen that before, but it still makes me smile from ear to ear. With lots of teeth. –Quiddity (talk) 00:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Fwiw, I have The Diamond Age firmly in mind, when thinking of "a wizard that lets a user select 'which help links do I want to paste into my redlinked userpage as a permanent reference?'" - it's often too hard for us to determine which welcome-template a newcomer is best served by. –Quiddity (talk) 00:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Database download

Hi! I've just finished downloading the September database dump. If there are scans I can run for you, now would be a good time to ask. You might like to add User:John of Reading/Latest download to your watchlist so that you are notified automatically in future. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

@John of Reading: Much thanks for the generous offers. Watchlisted!
At the moment, I'm still just interested in the 2 requests I added at Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks#Finding all graphical timelines, and the thread immediately below that. I just need a simple linked-list as output for each. Cheers! –Quiddity (talk) 17:02, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
I've done one of them at User:Quiddity/Articles containing timelines - in your user-space so you can {{db-u1}} it when you've finished with it. Friday evening is busy so I'll do the other tomorrow. -- John of Reading (talk) 17:39, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
...or late Friday evening. User:Quiddity/Articles containing score vorbis equals 1. -- John of Reading (talk) 21:42, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Huge thanks, John of Reading. Tis appreciated. –Quiddity (talk) 23:02, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


I recently told you I was working on some thoughts related to consensus building. After seeing a post by Steven Zhang at Jimbo's page, I wrote the following: Thoughts on DR. It covers much of what I had in mind.SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:38, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Very interesting, and yes, that sounds exactly like what I was hoping the infoboxes case would/will transform into. I've watchlisted his page, and will follow along with interest. Thanks. –Quiddity (talk) 23:04, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

"Button" for AfD

With regard to your question at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rhombus cipher, have you tried Special:NewPagesFeed, which is somewhat new? It's pretty handy and has buttons. Probably the best WMF tool I've seen rolled out so far. They pointed it out to me when I dropped by the San Francisco office a couple weeks ago. II | (t - c) 05:56, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, that button! And yah, I've briefly encountered Wikipedia:Page Curation, and heard many good things about it. If I had more time in the day... –Quiddity (talk) 06:51, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Your photos

I don't know why but I find your photos of cat noses strangely compelling. I never looked so closely at a cat's's kind of fascinating. Liz Read! Talk! 23:06, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

@Liz: There's a whole category of them, linked at commons:Felis_silvestris_catus#Anatomy! –Quiddity (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Ahhhh! Cat noses! I see there is much to explore on the Commons. Thanks! Liz Read! Talk! 12:38, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
a lot of it not worth looking at for a range of reasons though, but thats the off wiki conversartion... sats 13:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

dead projects

(Note to self and talkpagestalkers: this is Re: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Languages#Child_wikiprojects)Quiddity (talk) 17:32, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Half thought through - in response to the language suggested folding in inactives - methinks this a hot potato - maybe ..

Any suggestion of merges/closes are dangerous. One for the reason that 'closing' is a misnomer. If an inactive project is inactive, and you want to redirect part of the project, that is one thing. Banner Clutter reduction is a last resort, and should in reality be only done if there are no signs of life. The protocols have not been adequately discussed at Project Council as to how to merge/meld inactive projects. Some projects hijack sub projects with little or no consultation with any residual editors - I suspect a central 'merge' page should exist somewhere. If in this case a suggestion here is considered - I would suggest that child projects are clearly tagged as merged and left intact - and the pages that belong to the sub projects are adeuqately tagged by the new parent project.

... bugger - there are too many issues that jump out and grab the thoat about all this - this is worse than cfd as a minefield.

I think that the various improper methods that have evolved about this need a big picture thingy, maybe an off wiki discussion first sats 13:26, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

@SatuSuro: (pre-coffee thoughts). There are (2?) overlapping purposes of "wikiprojects": (1) groups of editors that work on content of a particular topic, and need an efficient way to share updates and workloads. (2) a topic-area that has been tagged with talkpage banner(s), for the purposes of the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment.
I was thinking of #1 when I supported the "merge" - how the merge is technically/practically carried out, has repercussions for #2, that I agree are worth discussing. I don't think we need a central board to validate merges (redtape), but we do indeed need some practical how-tos for things to consider and problems to avoid. An FAQ, not a noticeboard. (We have too many noticeboards!). (Back to nursing my coffee now. You should go start this discussion somewhere!) –Quiddity (talk) 17:32, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
one of many items I would like to raise, the ad hoc, erratic and chaotic behaviour towards quiet and near dead projects by some is abysmally lacking in WP:AGF - as to where to start the conversation, therein lies the rub. sats 09:34, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
oh - and somwehat heretical for cfd and other dark place editors, I do believe that tagging in effect allocates an article/page with a specific scope - it is astonishing at times what the lack of any project tag will do on some categories and or pages - it basically says no-one has thought about what area this subject/article belong sin the bigger scheme of things - a bit like a book in a library without a dewey or other number on its spine - which in my way of thinking is a fundamental right of every article to have a project it might belong to - article rights now! etc sats 09:38, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


My apologies, fellow colleague, I'm usually not that amateurish.[4] Didn't mean to waste anybody's time, even the few seconds that a revert takes.
And there I was hoping to wearily leave the Mothership with at least one useful contribution that the WikiVampires didn't revert. Looks like it wasn't Destined to happen. At least, my last reverted edit won't be making me upset. So, in a way, this is a thank you message.
I bet you never expected an editor to thank you for a revert, eh? :-) Issar El-Aksab (talk) 06:22, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

@Issar El-Aksab: One of my favourite messages (and I wish I could remember who wrote it to me first), is "You're not a real Wikipedian until you've made and learned from 50 mistakes". Also "To err is human, to forgive divine." (Alexander Pope). Have a good break :) –Quiddity (talk) 06:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Maria Popova Article

Hi Quiddity! Thanks for taking the time to review the Maria Popova article and leave comments on the talk page. We have not yet completely incorporated your comments about the reliability of self-published sources/blogs, but will be sure to address those soon. However, I just wanted to keep you posted on the progress that we have been making on the article. We went ahead and added a few subcategories and new content under the original categories. Although we will continue to add to the article in the upcoming days, we would appreciate any other comments or suggestions that you may have if you get the time to take another look. Thanks again! Ric.chi (talk) 18:29, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

WP Accessibility in the Signpost

The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Accessibility for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. –Mabeenot (talk) 02:18, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Cquote help

Thank you for correcting my edit on the Hokusai article and advising through example on the correct use of {{cquote|Quote Text}} Much better than the simple indent I corrected it to! Bobsd (talk) 17:22, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

No problem! Thanks for noticing. :) –Quiddity (talk) 18:47, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Dead projects

Re: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2013-10-30/WikiProject report and comments.

Now there is a really telling article - the wikiproject council process doesnt carck a mention, or where irt could be improved, or even why some dead projects nevertheless do fulfill a role despite being apparently dead... hmmm - I think I would have written a very different story... satusuro 03:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

WP:Contents has a particularly convoluted history, so I'm not surprised it didn't get seen clearly, but yeah, there are a few odd examples and ideas in there. Eg. WP:CommonSense only had 2 contributors, and no talkpage! Ah well, so it goes. –Quiddity (talk) 05:29, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Echo bug

Hi Quiddity. Based on this edit, I gather that you have some familiarity with Echo bugs. With that in mind, I was wondering if you could tell me if this is a known bug. If not, I'll log a new bugzilla report. Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 11:01, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

@DH85868993: Hi, sorry I didn't reply to the earlier thread, I meant to investigate it but must have closed the tab prematurely.
I don't believe there is an existing bug covering this problem - if you could file one that would be much appreciated.
(Notes: I did try turning on the "Add a "Sandbox" link to the personal toolbar area." gadget and switching to monobook, but I couldn't replicate the problem you're encountering - note, a screenshot might help, in case there are other elements/gadgets interfering somehow, eg Twinkle creates all these extra tabs for me: ). HTH. –Quiddity (talk) 19:01, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Bug 57102 created. DH85868993 (talk) 12:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

AFD of List of Dewey Decimal classes

I have put in a deletion request for List of Dewey Decimal classes as it appears to be a copyright violation. I'm notifying you as you have either made multiple edits to the article in the past year and/or on the talk page for that article and Talk:Dewey Decimal Classification. --Marc Kupper|talk 04:22, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

List of soundtracks to fictitious films

Hi, I noticed that you created List of soundtracks to fictitious films, which was redirected in March 2013 as an "unreferenced subjective list". This seems unsatisfactory, as the redirect target concept album does not have a section meeting the original purpose.

If you have no objection, I suggest that perhaps it should be deleted, either through WP:RfD, or restoring the page and using PROD or AfD. What do you think? – Fayenatic London 18:56, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

@Fayenatic london: No objection, prod or otherwise. The other alternative might be moving it back to my userspace (User:Quiddity/List of imaginary soundtracks) but I'm not sure if that's acceptable. Thanks. –Quiddity (talk) 19:11, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
OK, prod is probably least bureaucratic. WP:USERFY says "it is generally inappropriate to userfy an article without a deletion process." However, if you'd like a copy back after it's been deleted, let me know (of course, you could just copy it now). – Fayenatic London 19:23, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
@Fayenatic london: Now that it's deleted, could you please move a copy to my userspace? (I wanted to preserve the edit-history properly, hence didn't just copy&paste the latest diff). Thanks! –Quiddity (talk) 20:34, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Done, with pleasure. – Fayenatic London 22:13, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Feedback on improved template for welcome introduction and links for resources and help

While checking out a Talk page topic, I came across a current welcoming template for resources and help.

I noticed that you had provided feedback in the past on Template talk:Welcomeg.

I was curious if you would be interested in letting me know your preference based on my proposed, improved welcome introduction and table, which I have posted on Template talk:Welcomeg#Proposal for updating the template. Any additional feedback about the benefits, need for other improvements, limitations, or problems with the updated table would also be welcomed.

The proposed Welcome template improves on the current table due to the improvements below.

  • Updated the welcome introduction, including some new links, with helpful suggestions.
  • Rearranged and regrouped many links with common topics in the table for better flow and view of related topics.
  • Kept the visual presentation of the table as simple as possible with limited number of links on each line
  • Since "Getting started" and "Getting help" sections would be the most important to new users, kept these sections as simple as possible to avoid overwhelming novice users.
  • Added better link descriptions when it would provide a clearer explanation of the linked information for a user prior to them clicking on the link.
  • Added 11 key links that I found would be useful to know for immediate access for users rather than trying to figure out where to search for them. Deleted 3 links that were of lesser value or contained info found in other highlighted links.
  • Updated outdated wikilinks in the table.

The table set-up can be used by novice users, who can get started immediately with the simple "Getting started" and "Getting help" sections. These novice users and others can then find useful benefits and very practical info in the more comprehensive sections, which are still set up with limited links on each line and more intuitive link descriptions that are set up with an intelligent flow of topics that avoids sprawl and will help users get to the links they need without having to click on links to find out if a link is even applicable to what they are looking for.

I know that I and other users have indicated that they definitely needed a more comprehensive, well-organized, set of linked resources that would help them after they got done with the many simpler Welcome introductions, including the current template, that they received when first joining Wikipedia as a registered user. I believe my proposed table could meet their needs since I have also looked at all of the other current welcoming templates to ensure that this proposed table has the best links from the current templates and then provides better and even more useful links. Wondering55 (talk) 19:09, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia meetups – a design pattern catalogue?

Hello Quiddity, I've got it finally … File:Wikipedia Meetups – 2008 Wikimania Alexandria lightning talk.pdf. (some minor tweaks in font styling and language, but mainly the same as held in Alexandria). Have fun! Regards, --elya (talk) 13:12, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

@Elya: Perfect, and thank you! I've added it to outreach:Bookshelf Project#Entire list, and to WP:Meetup#Procedure and advice. :) –Quiddity (talk) 20:11, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Just passing through

T'was traipsing through some memories... and about half-a-dozen such pages on my own. Best Ifigure it, the bit bucket ate it! (now you figure out what I was looking for! <BSEG>). I'm mostly here right now. Better yet email me at my user name at gmail com // FrankB 06:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

templates : RSS and Atom field restoration

cc: Quiddity, Lexein :
There was a proposal at Wikipedia talk:External links#Proposal to remove the RSS and Atom fields from infoboxes, that involves Infobox_podcast template (and 2 others) circa 15 May 2010. No discussion here or there. It went to archive 29 unclosed, and before any number of editors responded.

"RSS" and "Atom" fields should be restored to the 3 infoboxes that use them, because:
WP:ELOFFICIAL's principle of non-duplication does not hold for many cases where the RSS feed is not linked to by any page on the podcast website, the opposite case for video podcasts with many encodings conflicts with this (in this case such websites usually have an RSS list page).
WP:ELNO#EL9 - "Links to any search results pages", RSS feeds are not dynamic searches
WP:CITECONSENSUS and WP:CITEVAR - "Because templates can be contentious, editors should not add citation templates, or change an article with a consistent citation format to another, without gaining consensus"
Consensus was not obtained.
Xb2u7Zjzc32 (talk) 17:06, 16 June 2014 (UTC)


Thank you so much for the suggestion to collaborate with Submissions/ Top down: making a country's education system wiki-compatible. Arunbandana 17:02, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Flow and talk pages in general


I was there for your talk this afternoon, but you dashed out before I could speak to you. --DThomsen8 (talk) 15:56, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi, DThomsen8. That was a very hectic week! I'm sorry we didn't get another chance to talk (half-finished conversations happened with so many people! 3 days really wasn't long enough...). But anytime you'd like to discuss more about Flow, or suggest new potential features, or bugs: drop me questions on my talkpage (but the other account! User talk:Quiddity (WMF)), or one of the project's talkpages (mw:Talk:Flow or WT:Flow), or an email.
ttfn, Quiddity (talk) 22:26, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Precious again

Cornflower blue Yogo sapphire.jpg

Thank you for returning and trying to make other quality contributors return, with a rarely simple invitation: "Try to work/smile/love/laugh/work alongside the other humans", - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:34, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Two years ago, you were the 231st recipient of my PumpkinSky Prize, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:49, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


The answer for the question you left on Module talk:SLAXML was: I never ended up using the module, and no-one else has used it since, so we may as well delete it. So I deleted it. :) — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 17:08, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Flow in other wiki

Moved to User talk:Quiddity (WMF)#Flow in other wiki

TfDs of likely interest

Please see WP:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 October 22#Glossary templates (and the related WP:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 October 20#Template:Gbq), as the outcome will strongly affect WP:WikiProject Glossaries and MOS:GLOSSARIES.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  19:09, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Meetup/Victoria/Gender Sex Activism Yesterday and Today 2014

Wikipedia Accountcreators.png

After reviewing your request for the account creator right, I have enabled the flag on your account. Keep in mind these things:

  • The account creator right removes the limit on the maximum number of new accounts that can be created in a 24-hour period.
  • The account creator right is not a status symbol. If it remains unused, it is likely to be removed. Abuse of the account creator right will result in its removal by an administrator.

If you no longer require the right, let me know, or ask any other administrator. Drop a note if you run into troubles or have any questions about appropriate/inappropriate use of the account creator right. Happy editing! — xaosflux Talk 16:07, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Please note, this is temporary access for this edit-a-thon, you are in no way required to use this if you do not want to; please see Special:Diff/630806918 for notes. Good luck with the edit-a-thon. — xaosflux Talk 16:07, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

You've got mail!

Hello, Quiddity. Please check your email; you've got mail! The subject is Lost Phabricator authentication tokens.
Message added 01:51, 23 January 2015 (UTC). It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 01:51, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Wikimedia genealogy project

Just wondering if you have any thoughts re: the idea of WMF hosting a genealogy project. If so, feel free to contribute to this discussion. And apologies if I have made this request before. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:42, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Seasonal Greets!

Wikipedia Happy New Year.png Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2015!!!

Hello Quiddity, May you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you a heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New year 2015.
Happy editing,
Rosiestep (talk) 01:45, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to user talk pages with a friendly message.

Thanks for related changes tip

Hi! Thanks for your tip in the Idea pump. I'm mainly interested in climate change stuff, and there was already an index, which just needed some updating. And voila! This works well! It could work better, of course. Do you know how to make the respective article talk page also appear? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:36, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi NewsAndEventsGuy, glad it helped :)
The only way I know of, is the manual way: make a copy of the index in your userspace (or as a wikiproject sub-page*) and add links to the talkpages. That's what Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics/List of mathematics articles (0–9) does (see the source, for the invisible links to talkpages). They've got the process refined fairly well, as they use a bot to populate the index pages, all based on specified categories (per User:Mathbot/Mathbot and math articles). Eventually, I hope we'll get all the wikiprojects up to that standard, but that'll take time, and possibly some new methods... I'll comment about that at the WP:VPI#Followlist thread.
*Tangentially, I've opined before, that indexes are the most difficult edge-case, and that what I think should happen to them is: The core list of keywords/terminology should grow into annotated-lists (glossaries) or structured-annotated-lists (outlines. e.g. Outline of meteorology); and the complete/exhaustive lists (indexes/indices) should migrate to wikiproject-space (as mathematics has done).
HTH. Quiddity (talk) 19:13, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Great ideas. So much time, and so little to do! No wait. Scratch that. Reverse it. Eat your chocolate heart out, Willy Wonka. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:51, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
"It happens every time, they all become blueberries!" :-) Quiddity (talk) 02:17, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Your advice is welcome

Hi User:Quiddity. I am coming to your talk page as I note you signed the The Autie Pact back in 2012. I am a non-neurotypical who lives with Autism in the form of Asperger Syndrome. If you know much about those of us on the Spectrum as well as Wikipedia editors on the Spectrum, you probably understand that editing and communication can be difficult enough for neurotypicals, excruciatingly difficult at times for editors like me with Autism. I am here on your talk page not because I am asking you to intervene, I am not canvassing for support. I am here because you signed the Autie Pact that is meant to be a way to move toward bridging the gap between neurotypical editors and editors with Autism Spectrum Disorder(s). Currently, there has been a discussion for a few days at AN/I regarding my ability to edit. I have been open there about being a person with Asperger's. When that information was brought forth, the reactions have been -- shall we say -- less than complimentary to those expressing their views about editors with Autism. This discussion and the comments from long-time and not-so-long-time editors is, in my opinion, an example of how far we still have to go in Wikipedia toward understanding that we are made up of editors with different editing styles and different ways of seeing the world. Of course, the difference in editors with Autism is more obvious and can be, at times, more maddening to neurotypicals. That said, with the rate of autism being somewhere between 1:55 - 1:110 and Wikipedia being a magnet for those with ASDs, I think it's fair to say that awareness is extremely important. Also important to remember is that discrimination against editors because they have ASDs is just not appropriate nor does it echo WP:AGF. If you are interested in seeing the thread at AN/I I am referring to, the link is here [5]. I have no expectation that you will look at it, my purpose here is really just awareness that Wikipedia still has a long way to go in the way of interactions and understanding between autism-spectrum editors and neurotypical editors. And, as the title of this section says, your advice would be welcome. Thanks for your time. -- WV 16:37, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Christa Bortignon has been accepted

Christa Bortignon, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
The article has been assessed as Stub-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. Note that because you are a logged-in user, you can create articles yourself, and don't have to post a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for Creation if you prefer.

Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia!

Worldbruce (talk) 07:58, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Please join the discussion on Talk:Glengarry Glen Ross (film)

Hello, I am soliciting comments for an RfC that is currently open on the "Glengarry Glen Ross (film)" page. There is disagreement about where the film was set (New York vs. Chicago).

One of the issues is whether it is original research to cite to elements in the film itself (including props, dialogue, and a statement in the end credits that it was "filmed on location in New York City") to establish setting.

Response so far in the RfC has been mixed. Comments welcome! Xanthis (talk) 14:00, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


I created Help:CharInsert and shamelessly adapted your customization instructions. Thanks for the start. --  Gadget850 talk 20:09, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks for the good documentation, and the ping, Gadget850. :) Quiddity (talk) 17:58, 11 March 2015 (UTC)